who said its cheating?

[j-himself]

i dont know about u all--since most of u are all into traditional chinese martial arts i reckon--but some ppl seem to have some weird tenet about whats a fair fight, etc..

my take on it, there is no such thing as a fair fight. on the street, fighting's fighting and theres nothing else to it.
when weapons comes into play, it seems like ppl think its not fair play. whatd u i think about that, f#%# that. say if theres more than one guy, or just one guy. i dont consider it cheap to use a braceknuckle, or anything like that. in a fight do whatever to neutrolise your opponent. if someones f*$#ing with u, be sure to end it. however, i do not support knives or guns. those kill ppl. crossing that line is a little too much. i do think, u have the right to protect urself though.

what'd u think?

check out some of the utensils they got at this site: http://www.donrearic.com/main.html

be sure to check out the koppo stick, that thing seems pretty handy. might make me one. hmm..

[Kristoffer]

If you come out alive you have won. Fighting isn't ''fair'' by far.

[Starchaser107]

I don't care much for a fair fight, whatever is an asset in my survival i will use it.
If its just sparring then fair
fighting , anything goes (in my favour)

[MaFuYee]

What ever happened to 'honor'?

there used to be a time, when you could get into a fight, and not have to worry that the other person would pull a weapon, or that half a dozen of his friends would jump in.

there used to be a time when a person could have an honest fight, and afterwards, you could shake hands and things would be settled.

there used to be a time when people understood the meaning of the word 'honor', and would abide by a code of conduct; and it didn't matter if you won or lost, so long as you stood up for yourself.

i feel sorry for the kids nowadays who'll never understand that.

there's nothing wrong with a good honest fight. - we need to bring that back for our children's sake.

[SanSoo Student]

The past is the past.
You live in the present so play by the current rules.
Fair fighting doesn't exist in reality anymore.

Whether you strike in the eyes to blind them, or four-knuckle strike to the throat to collapse their windpipe: you try to survive even if that means using cheap and lethal moves.

[neigung]

Originally posted by MaFuYee
What ever happened to 'honor'?

there used to be a time, when you could get into a fight, and not have to worry that the other person would pull a weapon, or that half a dozen of his friends would jump in.

there used to be a time when a person could have an honest fight, and afterwards, you could shake hands and things would be settled.

there used to be a time when people understood the meaning of the word 'honor', and would abide by a code of conduct; and it didn't matter if you won or lost, so long as you stood up for yourself.

i feel sorry for the kids nowadays who'll never understand that.

there's nothing wrong with a good honest fight. - we need to bring that back for our children's sake.

There was never any such thing as this.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by MaFuYee
there used to be a time, when you could get into a fight, and not have to worry that the other person would pull a weapon, or that half a dozen of his friends would jump in.

there used to be a time when a person could have an honest fight, and afterwards, you could shake hands and things would be settled.

I'm really not that sure about that. People have been fighting dirty since the days of stone v. fire hardened wood. I think we romanticize the past too much, but seeing as I have better things to do on a Sunday than look up sources to back my claim, I'll just leave it at that.

[Starchaser107]

Honour , and a code of conduct will not save you from a well trained psychopath intent on taking your life.

honour, and code of conduct will not work against an enemy that is high on cocaine and wants to see you bleed at all costs.

honour and code of conduct , are idealistic notions portrayed on tv. I am neither Mr. miyagi nor Daniel San, and the real world is nothing like kickboxing academy.

[Kristoffer]

*in terminator voice*

honor is left in kindergarden. when u grow up you gotta learn how to deal with reality!

[neit]

i believe fighting fairly is only relevent if you agree to fight. if someone attacks you, they deserve whatever they get.

[Stranger]

I forget who said it, but.....

....."if you are in a fair fight, then your tactics $uck." ;)

[rogue]

I think it's one of those USMC saying Stranger.

The idea behind any martial art is to give it's user an advantage over the other guy. At least that was the thinking once upon a time.


there used to be a time, when you could get into a fight, and not have to worry that the other person would pull a weapon, or that half a dozen of his friends would jump in. And when was this mystical time MFY?:confused:

[Black Jack]

Rogue,

That time only exists in the essence of Scooby Doo reruns, Hardy Boy novels and cheap Italian westerns.:D

[Vash]

**** *Fair* I get in a tussle, someone's losing a testicle.

[Laughing Cow]

Chivalry, honour, nobility and similar concepts are fictional there is no proof that there evre was an age that promoted those values.

Most of what know these days about these concepts comes from legends and folk tales.
Fair fighting belongs to the above group.

If duels were that great why were they outlawed in most places.

Even when duels took place the outcome was often not known immediately but could take days to see who died first or at all.

The nice Hollywood death of 1 shot = instant kill, 1 slash/stab/cut = instant kill don't exist in the real world or are very rare.

I also dare most people to continue fighting when they got a bullet in them.

Fair goes also well with bravery and similar concepts in stories, but not in real life.
Same way the stories of masters of old partaking in duels and killing so many people. Law and police have existed for millenia and many of those so-called masters would have been seen as hard-core criminals and been hunted down.

Seeya.

[rogue]

Honor in a fight was murdered by Royce Gracie in UFC1!:mad: Only a dishonorable man would take someone to the ground. :D :D :D

[Starchaser107]

taking a man to the ground is one thing
but staying there while hugging and rolling together...that is truly dishonourable:eek:

[themeecer]

There are two types of fights, the ones you fight fair in and the ones you win. :D

[Volcano Admim]

unhonored or dishonored is the guy that attacks me


Feel the rhythm with your hands
Steal the rhythm while you can

[ComeToJesus]

I'm pretty sure that in old Japan those values existed.

[Laughing Cow]

Don't be so sure.

Old saying:

"There is honour in accepting defeat or victory, there is no honour during the fight."

Plenty of things like Chivalry and the Samurai code of honour have been distorted by badly done researchers and writers that fancied the romantic notions.

Do a search into what and who the Knights and Samurai really were and also about their lifestyles and the lifestyles of their families.

Samurai were soo honest that their wifes and kids were kept at the imperial palace in case they did something against the emperor which would result in execution of their wifes and kids.

Most of the Budo-Code was created/refined during the Edo-era, the one time when Japan was united and wars were few. All the Do-concepts and arts were created during peace times, do keep the warriors in control.
Compare that with the Muromachi period which was the true height of the Samurai.

Forget the romantic notions, war is war , fighting is fighting and neither is pretty nor a desired thing.

Ever wondered why most soldiers keep their mouth shut when it comes to their experiences?

Seeya.

[Starchaser107]

samurai. those were some seriously evil b@stards in reality. thier samurai code of honour might differ monumentally from what you expect it to be.

[Ray Pina]

I can say that growing up, I never kicked another kid/guy in the balls, never poked his eyes and still won those fights.

Once, an older kid got me in a head lock and I did grab him by the back of his head and pulled his hair -- at that point I HAD to, and it did the job.

I think if you have skill, you should be able to handle a one-on-one "street" fight with a similiar-sized foe without resortorting to foul play.

I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood of Newark, and understand the whole, do what you have to do to servive argument, but honestly, I personally haven't seen it.

The really sketchy times, there's not much you can do anyway. I had a few friends held up at gun point and knife point. You give them your $hit and feel like a punk later and hope they don't crack ya in the jaw before saying good by.

But when a kid tries to steal your bike, or insults your mom, there's no reason not to just roll up your sleeves and go at it ... kids used to even give me $hit about kicking! Saying I was fighting like a girl.

Didn't bother me. I just knew they wish they could. There kicks could be seen from last week.

[dwid]

I think if you have skill, you should be able to handle a one-on-one "street" fight with a similiar-sized foe without resortorting to foul play.

So, in other words, if you have one type of unfair advantage over your opponent then you don't need to utilize another type of unfair advantage.

What it boils down to is that fighting skills could allow you to beat a guy and get to feel doubly good about it, good for winning and good for not "cheating." It's all a bunch of bs. Only children and grown men with the minds of children fight when they don't absolutely have to. When you absolutely have to fight, there's no time for considering whether a tactic is honorable.

[Ray Pina]

I'll put it to you this way:

I was at an afterhours club not long ago dancing NEAR some big juice head's girl (there was some eye contact) and he tried to shove me.

I saw it coming, was able to step outside of him and rest my weight on his arms while leaning into his ear: "Is that your girl? (didn't wait for reply), then why don't you dance with her."

Now I could have just as easily palmed him in the balls, but no need to. I could control him. You know what I found: Go around hitting people in the balls and cutting them with knives for no reason, you get a coat job!

And for those folks living in the boonies who are suggesing the kill or be killed, a coat job is sitting on corner with friends waiting for this guy to walk by all nonchalant. Coat goes over his head, baseball bats and steal-toe boots come out.

Most of my fights have ended after a few shots. The guy realised I'm not backing down, and after the exchange they're worse for wear than me.

Look crazy and corner me in a dark alley, I'll assume you have a weapon and if you make a move I'll go all ape $hit.

But pinch my girls a$$ and not apologize, or take it further, I have no problem going outside and giving you an old fashion Godfather over the garbage can beating ... no ball kicking or eye poking needed. I'm confodent in my kung fu. It gets the job done

[dwid]

I understand what you're saying, and no offense intended.

So what it comes down to is that your skill allows you to exercise some control over how far the situation escalates. That's great. I guess what I'm saying is that you have kung fu and the other guy might have a screwdriver or a pool cue. When you think about it, it's no less fair for someone to try to even the odds/stack the deck one way than the other.;)

[norther practitioner]

there used to be a time, when you could get into a fight, and not have to worry that the other person would pull a weapon, or that half a dozen of his friends would jump in.

I don't believe this for a second..


On another note..
When people say that chivalry is dead, I usually reply with it is prob. a lot different than you think.

We have fair fights here all the time, they are called debates about fighting:D

[Starchaser107]

Starchaser kicks NP in the groin and pokes out his eyes, and then swings a pipe in his throat as he falls to the floor a sharp kick to the ribs. Then flees into the darkness.:cool:

[norther practitioner]

I was being sarcastic.. sorry.:D

[Ryu]

Chivalry and bushido did exist in the past. But they were ethical behavioral systems that knights and samurai were supposed to follow so as they did not bring dishonor to their lord, King, etc.

Chivalry and such is a romantic ideal, and has been romanticized in olden books from those eras and afterward. That much can be proven easily.
Just because such a code did exist, doesn't mean everyone followed it. It's a bit like our "rules of war" as well.

Now that that's out of the way,
honor and ethical codes are how one deals with innocent and non threatening people. Honor and ethics are for defending, helping, and protecting innocent and non threatening people.

When someone is intent to hurt you (or someone else), and you need to fight......you have to win. Simply put.
That means that whatever you use to win the fight is fair game....the ethical side of this comes from why you're fighting in the first place.

Example. A home invader is trying to murder an elderly man, and I sneak up behind him and smash him in the skull with a golf club.
I win the fight, the elderly man is no longer in danger, and the "ethical" honor of that fight goes to the fact that I am giving aid to someone in need.

If the same scenario plays out and I try to fight the home invader in a "fair fight" and lose......I die, the elderly man dies, and evil wins out.

Case closed.

Ryu

[Shaolin-Do]

"there used to be a time, when you could get into a fight, and not have to worry that the other person would pull a weapon, or that half a dozen of his friends would jump in."

That should read
"there used to be a time, when you could get into a fight, and not have to worry about going to jail for beating the **** out of someone, as fights were common practice."

[Ray Pina]

Ryu hit the nail on the head. But I think there is a difference between boys will be boys fighting, and really having to pick it up a notch.

I'll put it this way: I'll fight fair in a "let's take it outside" ordeal until I start to feel threatened, endandered. At that point, it's no longer a fight, it's about survival, in that I can't trust the other guy to just stop when I say "mom".

But I consider breaking a collor bone, a rib or an arm FAIR. As long as I don't kick you in the balls or poke your eye it's all good in the neighborhood.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
That should read
"there used to be a time, when you could get into a fight, and not have to worry about going to jail for beating the **** out of someone, as fights were common practice."

And when was that??

AFAIK, throughout the ages fights in public were not condoned by the authorities.

Giving a healthy smack or two for doing something stupid, OTOH, was and should still be.
When I was a kid, if we did anything wrong we an like hell because we KNEW that we would get a smack or two for doing so.
Now it is all PC, "don't hit your child", yadda, yadda.

Seeya.

[Shaolin-Do]

"And when was that??"
lol...
Ever taken american history? Err.. probably not. Anyhow, its same as european... Gun duels were common place, and legal. Knife fights, although not legal, were extremely common during developmental frontier times in texas.
I agree that parents should be able to discipline their child at their own discression, but the laws were made due to people who abused their children. (which didnt really help, the child abusers still are and always will be.)

[Laughing Cow]

Are you sure about those facts?

I seem to remember a few "outlaws" in the old west that were hunted BECAUSE they killed someone in a gun duel.

But I agree if there is NO police or legal authority around that those fights would be common, but as soon as said authority was in place ....

Actually you would be surpised about fighting in old europe throughout the ages.

Fights were common, but the situation changed drastically the minute someone got seriously maimed or killed.

Seeya.

[j-himself]

to respons to evo fist post about taking the fight outside. if i end up on the ground and the guy is mounting me and ready to beat the living hell out of me. hell, i'm ready to poke his eyes out, i'll bite his nose off. i'll do anything to get the advantage in a situation like that to prevail. call it cheating, i call it not getting me ass beat, and beating his punk a$$ instead.

[j-himself]

btw, what'd u guys think about those "self defense" weapons on that site? i thought the koppo stick was pretty sweet.

[apoweyn]

I don't think I've heard anyone call such things "cheating" since middle school.

[bungda07]

"Your not cheatin, your not tryin" In U. S. Navy terms: Do whatever possible to win with all available resources. His or her intent will let you know very quickly the degree of how animalistic to go.

V/r

Steve M.

[Ray Pina]

I think all martial arts are "cheating", that's what technique is about.

But in response to J-himself's response: If the guy takes you outside, picks you up, and throws you on the ground and mounts you -- YOU HAVE ALREADY LOST SEVERAL MINI BATTLES ... trying to poke him in the eye at that point will do you little good. How many one eyed Vietnam, WWII or WWI vets you see walking around? One legged, one armed, yea. All the time. It's not see easy to get an eye. And if you have to resort to wegies and what not, your outmatched or undertrained to begin with ... otherwise how did he get you -- a trained MA -- down?

When you train, do you train to pinch someone to get out of a lock, or do you find a way to use your mechanics to do so? These "tricks" you're referring to rely on the guy letting go because of pain. What if he's so high he doesn't feel you kicking his balls? Then what? Your technique better solve the problem, not look for a single miracle cure.

Here's a question. How many people here responding to this have actually been in a street fight?

[j-himself]

evo fist, what u said about losing all those mini battles to end up there, I couldnt agree with u more. however, there are times when u end up on ur back with ur opponent mounted on you. it actually happend to me last weekend, where i got into a fight with this one guy. i was leaning against a table in the park, and this guy wanted to box,, (its a long story), anyhoe, i didn't really have time to stand up, because this guy was already in my face, so when things started to get hot, i pulled him towards me, and we ended up on the table with him on top. as i pulled him down, i used his momentum to flip him over, n i got him in a head lock with my left arm while i was pounding him in the ear with my right. n it keeps going a lot longer, but that was just an example on how i got there and i couldnt really do much about it. however, instead of doing what i did, if he got me in a more dominant position, using cheap tricks work well as a last resort. you may have took me a little to literate, but any cheap tricks in a situation like that could work. ie, bitting, eye gouging, etc. at least they're worth a try. again, most of these are used as a last resort if u dont fight like a biyaatch (u know who u are) hehe.

if the guys threshold of pain is that high that he cant even feel a kick to the nuts, i probably wont think nothing of my punches neither. ur talking about some indestructable nemesis here. well, if i were to fight a guy like that, i'd give him all my cheap shots: strike to the throat, nuts, n eyes. if that dont work, i'll either get the hell out of there, or get myself a beating. the latter one will make u a hard mofo after some time, but it may take ur lift too. the first one will make u a pu$$y, but a smart one.

thats my 3 cents

[j-himself]

just wanted to add something about getting kicked in the nuts. this is only what i've heard, i dunno if its true or not, but when ur in a fight n u get kicked in the nuts, suppsedly because of the adrenaline pumping so high you wont even feel it till afterwards. it may even anger u person getting kicked more. like i said, i dunno if this is true or not, but i think id go down like a sack of potatos.

[Ray Pina]

What up J. Crazy about that park situation, but that's kind of my point. You were in a less than great position, but he didn't put you there using his skill. YOu happened to be there already. You made the most of it -- and reversed it -- using technique. Because you were better prepared for the situation you didn't have to grab his ear, eye, balls, ect.

Like I said, don't get me wrong. Put me in a position where I feel danger, then you have to do what you have to do. But you seamed pretty comfortable and in control there. That's more my point. The mindset of "fighting dirty" is a defeatest one. A well trained MA shouldn't have big trouble on the street unless they are oversized by 50 or 60 lbs, a huge hight difference, ect. Weapons, of course, changes everything.

Sometimes I feel so silly posting on here. When the time comes, we do what we've been trained to do ... It just comes out, no?

[Crimson Phoenix]

Bushido's just a recent invention. It's as much romanced as western chivalry is. There is no honor in the battlefield, where honor can equal death. In China, waaayyyy back in the days, they used to conduct wars in an honorable way...they'd fire arrows in turn, and wait for a fallen officer to go back to his charriot before chasing again. They were mostly captured and humiliated, not killed, and that served to end the fight because the other party recognized defeat...but it didn't last long...confrontations with the people on the border made them realize quickly that their gentle chivalric ways of warfare could be good among themselves, but not when it came down to defeating a bunch of wild and hungry invaders...

there are no fouls or cheats in the streets. Testicles are just one target among the others. You can scratch? scratch...there's only one rule: do what it takes to win...and don't listen to these *******es that tell you afterward "man, you cheated, you used dishonorable means", because they probably never been in real troubles in the streets...

Not aiming at anyone here in the conv, just some thoughts...

EF: I somewhat kind of agree to your post...however I feel it's more an issue of compassion (you try not to hurt the guy too much when obviously he's no match for you) rather than "dirty or not dirty". For me fighting is dirty, period. If you're so much better than your opponent, why did you get in the fight anyway? My philosophy is "avoid the fight by all means...but if you end up fighting, nothing is taboo".

[Starchaser107]

vive le france!:p

always wanted an opportunity to say that

[Ryu]

"Bushido's just a recent invention. It's as much romanced as western chivalry is. There is no honor in the battlefield, where honor can equal death"


There's a lot of misconception on what "bushido" and "chivalry" historically were here on this board.....

Bushido was not a recent invention. The word "bushido" is more modern, but the behavior "ethics" of the warrior class/retainers in old Japan were a very historical aspect of the culture dating back way before the 15th century.

During WW2, the Japanese "ressurrected" a twisted set of ideals and referred to it as bushido to really drive home a sense of national pride. But those ideas were not "bushido" as defined in some of the old texts, etc.

"chivalric" codes of olden eras were NOT designed to make you fight fair in war and therefor lose......how silly. :rolleyes:

They were, and I repeat, behavioral "ethics" that the top soldiers were supposed to consider and practice so that the lords they served were not defamed from the actions of their soldiers.

Bushido and Chivalry were NOT about bowing to your enemy in war, and dueling in a fair fight.
The ideas were mostly about how to conduct oneself in regards to your king/lord, ladies of the court, the public, and how one dealt with such things as slander, backbiting, etc.

Many did NOT follow such ideals....
but those ideals were as real during the time as war was. It just wasn't the type of thing people think of now a days.

These people were professional soldiers....why on earth would a soldiers "behavior ethic" constitute a philosophy that would hurt their chances of winning a war???

The information is all there. Go look for it.

Ryu

[CrippledAvenger]

Ryu has caught the correct and is now the correct version of Typhoid Mary.

[Vash]

CrippledAvenger has taken the humorous invention of correct as a venerial disease, raped it, peed on it, and beat the **** out of it with an ugly branch.

:D

[Crimson Phoenix]

Ryu, well, I came across different affirmations during my research, mostly by japanese scholars like Kenji Tokitsu. It seems the ideal image of the samurai we have a largely wrong, and we seem to forget that there really were two samurai era, and not a continuity: Bude Jikai (1192-1603) and Kamakura (1603-1868). Kamakura samurais were wussies compared to the Bude Jikai samurais, and yet our common conception of the samurai is that of...the Kamakura.
I won't dwell into that and I'm certainly not interested in a scholar name dropping.

The information is here, indeed, yet history is often an embellished lie agreed upon...so it can be tough to have certainties on some topics...

[Ryu]

I stayed in the city of Kamakura the last time I visited Japan. There's supposed to be quite a lot of bushi still buried underneath the city (the place has some good ghost stories as well. ;) )

I am not arguing the fact that samurai (and even European knights for that matter) have a slightly different history then what people normally think of them in this day and age. For the most part I'd agree with that.
My qualm was in the feudal "behavior ethics" not existing. It's quite obvious from texts from that era that such a "code" did indeed exist.
But that "code" was strongly a cultural thing too, and it filtered out into basic Japanese society at the time, and not just that of the retainers.
At the courts, the samurai were usually required to behave in a certain way, the "retainer's way."
And as I mentioned, this "way" dealt more with court service, how to address superiors, deal with women of the court/castles, how to deal with slander, etc.

The code of "bushido" (made famous in my opinion by people like
Nitobe Inazo) became more romanticized the way Chivalry did with the Arthurian legends, Chaucer, etc.

However, that being the case, does not mean that the real cultural elements were somehow fabricated all together.

But yes, history is not always correctly written....

Ryu

[Crimson Phoenix]

From what I remember of the stuffs I heard (I do not doubt the sources), Bushido was really invented by Nitobe, as a word and a concept. Anyway, I feel we do agree on the whole topic, even though we come from different ways with our points.

BTW, Starchaser: Big up me son!!!!

[Starchaser107]

big up king
bless.


and for what it's worth I can't seem to find information on
Bude Jikai on the internet, are there any sources for this.

Both u and ryu took this to the other level