BJJ's Achilles Heel

[STUDD WILSON]

Guys, I have every bit of respect for Bjj. Hey I practice it myself. But something really irks me about Americans who do Bjj. You talk to them and most have this invincible mentality that everything they do will always succeed. Since Gracie said that all fights go to the ground then it must be so and Bjj can make toast out of every martial art out there. I think that BJJ guys are falling into the same trap that traditional martial arts fell into in the 70's and 80's. They thought that their stand up game was so good that noone could beat them. This I attribute to their poor success against grapplers in the 90's. I cant say how many times that I have heard grapplers talk and diss other styles acting like nobody can stop them from taking someone down. But this arrogant attitude violates one of the most basic premises of their art and every other one out there. My Kuk Sool Won teacher was also a 4th Dan in Judo. He always stresses that "no matter what method of fighting that you employ, punching, kicking, or wrestling, you must always remember that NO technique is foolproof and a counter exists for everything. Its like the Yin and the Yang." He told me abnout an American Soldier that was stationed in Seoul in the late 80's he studied Judo and his method of training was to develop coutermoves to every common takedown that was usually employed in tournaments. He got so good that nobody in the tournaments could successfuklly drop him without getting thrown themselves. I find that most martial arts are set up well in footwork and stances to provide successful counterstrategies to grapplers. This would be up to the practitioner to fully develop them to a successful level. I have found from my own experience that I can use the techs of Kuk Sool to mount a coutermove successfully against grapplers who are trying to drop me. But this takes a really god grasp of body mechanics and footwork. These things I worked rigourously in Korea now I have an advanced level of skill. This involved me staying in a stance for sometimes 1 hr. This aspect of training I find seems to be largely lost in American mainstream martial arts.

[wushutiger]

I totally agree with STUDD WILSON. I try to do horse stance for as long as I can, but there are many distractions and such. But the fact that some people think they are all that, and dont even train in the traditional style that created and maintained the martial art should not be accepted. They simply need to learn to do traditional practice techniques and also remember that expressing the fact that you take martial arts and how great they are, only brings trouble.

-wushutiger

[Archangel]

Anybody that thinks that BJJ is undefeatable has not watched MMA for the past couple of years, BJJ fighters certainly have taken their losses. However one must not forget what they did changed the face of Martial Arts forever. There is a big difference between the the traditional MA of the 70's and 80's and the Gracies. The two factions both claimed to be the best fighters in the world however it was the gracies that had the balls to go in and prove it. They challege the world and beat every style that accepted. It wasn't till recently that BJJ fighters started losing, and it wasn't till last year that Royce finally lost to a shootfighter and Renzo got beat by a wrestler. I disagree with the putting down a martial art and the superiority complex that alot of BJJ fighters have, but in my opinion if there is such a thing as bragging rights in martial arts, unlike the traditionals the Gracies have earned it.

[Merryprankster]

Also, BJJ is notoriously BAD at takedowns... In my own opinion, go find a good judoka or wrestler, or san shou guy if you want to learn to drop somebody, grappling style :)

If you can't bring the fight to your range, you can't win. If a BJJ'er can't get you to the ground, the options are limited. In the early days of MMA, the BJJ guys would take it to the ground any way they could. As soon as they went up against guys with good takedown skills, they had a hard time dictating who went where when, making it MUCH more difficult. I can know matwork in and out, but if I can't get there, it does me no good.

Oh yeah, I agree... a LOT of unjustified testosterone running around in the BJJ world. You should SEE the attitude thrown around at some of the tournaments!

[qeySuS]

Even in UFC#2 (i know i sound like rolls but bare with me) Where everything went and it was mostly style vs style (not MMA vs MMA). I remember the fight between Kimo Leopoldo and Royce Gracie. Royce tried and tried but he COULD NOT get kimo down :) Obviously in the end he did but that was after a LOT of beating (he had to quit because of his injuries). What kimo had was extraordinary strength and balance, he just stood there while royce tried to take him down, that guy was an Ox, and up until then he had only practiced TKD and preached in churces (he's a priest). I think the biggest mistake Kimo ever made was to go wrestling, he stopped being a striker after his loss and started learning BJJ (i undrestand i never did see any of his later fights but i read his fight record and he lost quite a few). So there we have a striker with NO grappling experience, just good strength and balance, and he stood royce off for a LONG time. Why am i saying all this? I have no idea, i just love kimo and how a pure striker could stand Royce off for such a long time :)

Free thinkers are dangerous.

[SokeHargraves]

>>>Also, BJJ is notoriously BAD at takedowns... In my own opinion, go find a good judoka or wrestler, or san shou guy if you want to learn to drop somebody, grappling style

After years of wrestling (I did submission wrestling with Kenny Monday) and then turning to BJJ, I have to disagree.
BJJ's takedowns are more geared towards actual fighting on the street. Try a single or double leg on concrete, my friend, and see what happens to your knees!! BJJ's takedowns are more upright and street practical.
As far as Judo goes, I have to admit that from what I have seen, they are the best martial art when it comes to nothing but takedowns! I haven't been all that impressed with many Judo guy's (in my area) ground fighting abilities.

-Neal

"As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us has all we need.
Sky of blue, and sea of green,
In our yellow submarine."
-the beatles

[old jong]

I think that if a judoka was training to "beat" his opponent as opposed to only throwing him down,they would be considered a lot more dangerous!...They have the locks,the chokes and the general ground grappling skills included in their "sport" IMO,they may be concentrating to much on getting the IPPON sport fashion! It is a question of mentality.They have all the tools! ...With the exeptions of legs locks! Not so much a big deal to learn! :rolleyes:

C'est la vie!

[Ford Prefect]

>>>What kimo had was extraordinary strength and balance, he just stood there while royce tried to take him down, that guy was an Ox, and up until then he had only practiced TKD and preached in churces (he's a priest). I think the biggest mistake Kimo ever made was to go wrestling, he stopped being a striker after his loss and started learning BJJ (i undrestand i never did see any of his later fights but i read his fight record and he lost quite a few). <<<

Sorry bud, but in his pre-fight interview he said that he had been training extensively in grappling in preparation for a run-in with Royce.

"Who's house?"
"I said RUN's house."

[Watchman]

qeysus: That was UFC3 that you're referring to, and I actually give kudos to Royce for being able to negate the strength and power of someone twice his freakin size. Plus, it may have taken some time for him to get Kimo down, but Kimo was never able to get a really good clean shot on him during the whole fight, so it's not like the length of time it took Royce to get him down was that big of a deal. I'm also of the opinion that Royce didn't quit the next fight because of injuries, but because he was so exhausted from his previous effort. I remember when I was hanging out in fighter's stable at UFC2 alot of the guys were pulled up to oxygen tanks because they gassed themselves in their fights and the climate was killing them. One fighter, Freak Hammaker - a Sambo guy from Holland who smoked his competition in the prelims - didn't continue because he couldn't breathe.

STUDD: The attitude you're talking about is usually only exhibited by inexperienced BJJ players, and the superiority complex is there because they haven't really tested their own skills much yet. It's easy to borrow another's success to validate yourself. Experienced practitioners usually don't front the fake 'tude - any opinions they may have are born out of actually applying what they know. Plus, the "my art kicks your art's @ss" attitude isn't exclusive to BJJ players with a machismo complex. You'll see that kind of crap coming out of inexperienced students of any art.

A case in point is one time I went into the local bookstore to browse through the MA mags and ran into one of the guys that trains at the BJJ class. After we made small talk for minute he figured out I was the guy who ran the Wing Chun school and he told me that he had a problem with one of my students. Apparently this guy who had been training with me for three months had been going around telling everyone what a good fighter he was, and when this BJJ guy starting asking him why he thought he was all that, my student started talking smack. The BJJ guy said at the time he didn't do anything because he didn't want to start a rivalry (we live in a small town). I told him that next time he should just choke his @ss out so he'll either come back to my class humbled up a bit, or he'll join the BJJ class. That seemed to make him feel better about things. LOL.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[Merryprankster]

I still disagree about the takedowns. There are a HOST of upper body wrestling takedowns that do not require a shot. I wouldn't shoot a single or double in the street, unless through some odd circumstance, it was my only way win.

Compared to Wrestling/Judo/Sambo/San Shou, BJJ does not have as clean an understanding of the different ways to drop your opponent to the ground.

Funny you should mention the upright stance. I remembered noticing that difference too. After getting dropped with a couple of Uchi Matas and an inside trip or two, I found out why. Greco-Roman wrestlers also have a much more upright stance.

[SokeHargraves]

>>>>There are a HOST of upper body wrestling takedowns that do not require a shot.

I agree. Again, I wrestled greco-roman style also. There are numerous upper body wrestling techniques BUT the major difference is that upper-body wrestling throws require superior strength to pull off. BJJ does not requrie superior strength, but relies purely on technique and postitioning.

-Neal

"As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us has all we need.
Sky of blue, and sea of green,
In our yellow submarine."
-the beatles

[Knifefighter]

Takedowns definitely are the achilles heel of BJJ. However, standing for hours in a horse stance is not the way to exploit this weakness.

[Merryprankster]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Most throws are about proper hip placement, and I can think of a good number of upper body takedowns that don't require me to be stronger than the opponent.

How is it that BJJ takedowns are more technical than greco-roman takedowns (or any other takedown for that matter)?

[Knifefighter]

I have to agree with Merryprankster on this one. Having wrestled for six years and having now put in about the same amount of time in BJJ, I think wrestling takedowns are light years ahead of those in BJJ, whether you are talking competition or the street.

[Watchman]

Really? Why is that? What's the big operating difference between the takedowns in BJJ and in wrestling?

If you guys have already explained that in this post and I missed it, then I apologize for rehashing it.

[Water Dragon]

Why is it that whenever this topic comes up, no one ever states the fact that BJJ is a highly developed version of the Judo gound game? If the Gracies caould do what they did with Judo's ground game, why hasn't anyone done the same thing with the throws?

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[old jong]

I heard that many judoka like to specialise in ground fighting when their competition years are over! There is also a striking kata learned at hight level.(I think it is Kime no Kata!)

C'est la vie!

[8stepsifu]

Like Suai Chiao? Which has way more hand positions that Judo. Also it's not gi dependent. At least 8 steps throwing isn't. Yes (fast wrestling) suai chaio is more advanced.

Tell me this? Are there actually more BJJ fighters out there fighting nhb than TKD? Which styles win the most. Are guys that took up BJJ in there early 20's doing well? I think it's the harshness of the training that makes a fighter. If you have good technique to begin with, you are that much ahead, but all the sweet technique won't beat technique with experience.

don't worry be happy

[Archangel]

I'll try to answer some of your questions.

1) There are more BJJ guys fighting in NHB. There have been some TKD guys in the past like Ichihara, Kimo and Cal Worsham and a few in the early UFC's. They've never really faired well though, they just didn't have the techniques to compete against groundfighters.

2) In the past the pure grapplers dominated the pure strikers. The strikers began to evolve first (makes sense - evolve or die), they trained and adopted just enough grappling to neutralise the groundighters. With the onset of stand-ups and rounds striking became more prevelant. The striker-grapplers were now beating the pure grapplers. Now the grapplers have learned striking and everyone is a mixed martial artist.

3) There are guys like Matt Sera, Elvis Sinosic, Jermey Horn, Pat Miletich and many others who are now doing very well in MMA using BJJ.

Maybe just maybe style and training are improtant to making a good fighter.

[jjj]

>>Really? Why is that? What's the big operating difference between the takedowns in BJJ and in wrestling?<<

In wrestling we spent a large percentage of our time working on takedown techniques, live takedown sparring and doing takedown-related drills. In BJJ we typically start from the knees when we spar and don't do nearly as much takedown work. Different focus, plus its easy to learn how to flop into the guard.

"Look at your fingers, dey orange Tupak! You ate my Cheetos at the party didn't you Tupac!"
-Mr. T

[Watchman]

Once again, thanks.

[justinm]

hey guys i am new to this forum and I basically signed up after reading this thread... Studd I think you are probobly going up against very new students of brazilian jiujitsu or possibly students that may not have access to a good instructor. Around the time when Royce was winning the ufcs there was a lot of guys with big heads doing jiujitsu and acting like they could beat anyone up hey i was one of those guys :) i think over the last few years the bjj guys have been humbled a lot. I think if you go to any good school you will find some of the nicest martial artists around - i have been to many respectable JIujitsu schools and I have never seen any bad attitides at all - I dont think anyone that is any good in BJJ would claim that it has the best takedowns - judo and wrestling dominate those for sure but at the same time there is no way a horse stance is going to defend a good takedown. I also agree with another post that stated that judo could be as dangerous as BJJ if they brought the focus to submissions after the throw - i agree but judo lacks a good guard and years of training for pins instead of submissions puts them way behind on the ground game. Anyways my advice to studd is to go and find a good Jiujitsu fighter and put your skills up against him - if you are a black belt in another martial arts it would only be fair for you to grapple a black belt in BJJ and then come back and post your thoughts on this board.

Justin Morris
Pedro Sauer Brazilian Jiujistu
www.thirdheaven.com (http://www.thirdheaven.com)

[Knifefighter]

If the Gracies caould do what they did with Judo's ground game, why hasn't anyone done the same thing with the throws?
===============================================
Judo already has done this. For jacket throws, while competition Sambo comes close, nothing surpases judo.
=============================================

[ATENG]

"I also agree with another post that stated that judo could be as dangerous as BJJ if they brought the focus to submissions after the throw"

i think slamming someone on the ground(not mats) is just as dangerous, if not more so, than submitting them.

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[Watchman]

Out of curiosity, did you train under Pedro Sauer in Orem/Salt Lake City, Utah? I trained in Wing Chun for a long time in those same stomping grounds.

I had the opportunity to meet Pedro at UFC2 in Denver. He's a really nice guy and seems very capable.

[Water Dragon]

I just feel that if more BJJ guys focused on the Judo and BJJ together, they would be BAD AS HELL. I wouldn't be too quick to mess with them, that's for sure.

I respect the hell out of both arts, but together?
Oh ****!!

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[shenwu disciple]

Hey Water Dragon,

Most of the top guys do have black belts in judo. Maybe that's why they're at the top? I thought you folks might like this web site: http://www.geocities.com/relvisab/mehdi.htm

Enjoy.

[LEGEND]

Hey Neal...I understand HAWK has said something about GJJ being street realistic with their takedowns...can u elaborate on the techs??? Since I'm a small guy( 5ft 7inches and 140lbs ) I'm trying to use as much tech as possible...I currently use wrestling takedowns...hip toss...double leg...single leg...ankle pick...double leg then trip...etc...any comparison to the GRACIE style would help! THANKS!

A