Suplementing Tai ji

[Lin-Wu]

I consider myself to be yet very young -both in age as in tai ji- but I would like to do other martial arts while studying Tai ji.My sifu thinks I should study Aikido,but I`m really interested in Shaolin Kung-fu.I heard both are really phisically demanding,but I also heard that Shaolin gives me more agility.I could use a second opinion.

[Laughing Cow]

Go with your Sifu's advise.

He knows and can see things that you can't yet atleast.

[Lin-Wu]

I`m not disagreeing wiht you,nor my sifu,but it just not seem right to me.I mean,I`ve seen Aikido,and it`s very nice,but it has a lot of grabbing,and the impression I have from Tai ji is the opposite,because usually,Tai ji students are slimmer and -PHISICALLY ONLY-weak.For me,that`s why they avoid grabbing and that kind of stuff.That`s why I`m confused.Again,I`m not disagreeing with you,I just don`t understand why these styles combine.

Lin-wu

[Laughing Cow]

Speak to your Sifu again and voice your concerns about his advise.

He might have reasons to suggest Aikido, maybe to develop certain aspects that you are lacking now.

Remember your Sifu will give you advise that will allow you to grow the best and develop your abilities to the max.

As for not seeing grabbing in Taiji, it is there you simply might not have been shown those applications. Most of the moves can be used in a variety of ways.
Initially you need to learn to move the Taiji way, shift weight the taiji way, etc.

OTOH, if you are more interested in a shaolin looking taiji than maybe Chen Taiji is the answer for you.

Personally, I don't think it is a good idea to study multiple arts unless there is a solid reason for it.

Cheers.

[Lin-Wu]

Thanks,LC.I appreciate your suggestions and will do as suggested,but i do not intend to leave Yang Tai ji (it`s really cool and ,besides,my brother does Chen Tai ji and I dind`t like it much.although I have nothing against it,Yang Tai ji seems more appropriate for me).You really helped me here,and I will address my sifu about this.

Lin-Wu
Immensely grateful

[[Censored]]

The most important questions are:

- Does he actually know anything about Aikido (i.e. practiced it himself)?
- Does he know anything about the particular school he would send you to?

Remember your Sifu will give you advise that will allow you to grow the best and develop your abilities to the max.
Unless they are simply mistaken. Teachers make mistakes too.

Personally, I don't think it is a good idea to study multiple arts unless there is a solid reason for it.
"I will because it's interesting" is a solid argument. "I won't because my teachers will get p1ssy about it", unfortunately, is a solid counterargument.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by [Censored]

Personally, I don't think it is a good idea to study multiple arts unless there is a solid reason for it.
"I will because it's interesting" is a solid argument. "I won't because my teachers will get p1ssy about it", unfortunately, is a solid counterargument.

Have to disagree there, for me a solid argument is more than the "simple desire" to do something.

Things like:
Studying style X will add this skill which I am lacking in.

Studying style Y will get me closer towards the goal I have set myself.

If we simply did things because the looked "interesting" i think we would find that mastery of any endevaour/achieving goals will become a thing of the past.

Just my toughts naturally.

[Brad]

Tai ji students are slimmer and -PHISICALLY ONLY-weak.
Ever see pics of Yang Cheng Fu of the Yang familly your style is named after? :D

[Brad]

Anyway, if you really must find something to learn in addition to Taiji you should also check out Xingyi or Bagua if you have access to it...

[donjitsu2]

Taijichuan isn't known as "the Grand Ultimate Fist" for nothing. Taji is a DEADLY martial art that when practices properly can give practitioners amazing strength, speed, and agility (just like all internal martial arts). Your sifu sounds very openminded, however, I don't see the need to go out and learn another system. I would like to make one suggestion however. Do a lot of standing meditation. It will increase your power tremendously. If he hasn't already ask your sifu to teach you the "Universal Post" posture about 30-60 min a day should be good for developing suitable amounts of power that are applicable to Taiji. Be content with your system and you will the the great benefits you will receive.

Josh Skinner

[taijiquan_student]

Taijiquan is not called The Grand Ultimate Fist, or at least the name doesn't mean that at all. Other than that, I agree that you shouldn't need to supplement your training with another art, especially since you sound like a beginner (sorry if i've made a mistake here). Just focus on getting the principles in your body.

[Laughing Cow]

Better translation for Tai Chi Chuan is:

"Great polarity fist"

or

"Grand Extreme fist"

Which points to the Yin/Yang duality(taiji).

Cheers.

[donjitsu2]

I had always heard it meant Grand Ultimate. I'm a Xingyi practitioner myself so about all I know about Taiji is what it looks like when someone else is using it on me, lol. To say it is a formidable art is an understatement. Thank You for the Correction.

Josh Skinner

[Laughing Cow]

Josh.

It is common mis-translation that unfortunately is being widely accepted as the "correct" one.

Agreed, that it is a formidable art. :D

[bodhitree]

Do the shaolin
just my opinion.

[scotty1]

Tai ji students are slimmer and -PHISICALLY ONLY-weak.For me,that`s why they avoid grabbing and that kind of stuff.

Few of the students (the ones that stay) in my class are physically weak. In fact they're ****ing strong. And there's lots of grabbing.

If you're not getting what you want out of your style, think about going elsewhere.

Not intended as a dis to your sifu but people can be on different wavelengths.

And I think that if you want to be really good at one style, time spent training another style is wasted, because you're only spending 50% of the time you could be on one method.

[liangZhiCheng]

I agree with what others have said, Tai Ji is a complete art. If you study another art, I would suggest one that is internal as well. If you are serious about Tai Ji, you should not train Shaolin, as this will hinder your progress. I personally made the choice to stop lifting weights because it was tightening my muscles. As far as Tai Ji students being weak, this is not necessarily the case. "Grabs" are not done with excessive force, so physical strength isn't a factor. One of the best examples is a baby grabbing your finger. The baby has very little strength, but is able to have a strong hold. Good luck with your training.

[MaFuYee]

lin-wu;

Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself and youself alone one question... Does this path have heart? If it does, the path is good. If it doesn't, it is of no use.

carlos castaneda

[scotty1]

""Grabs" are not done with excessive force, so physical strength isn't a factor. One of the best examples is a baby grabbing your finger. The baby has very little strength, but is able to have a strong hold."

Physical strength IS a factor. If you could tell me how to maintain a grab without using it, I would be grateful.:)

Lets be realistic here, the baby does not have a strong hold. If you wanted to break its grab, it would not be hard.

[liangZhiCheng]

Physical strength IS a factor. If you could tell me how to maintain a grab without using it, I would be grateful.

If someone were trying to break your grab, and you respond by tightening your hold, you are using force against force. I believe (I am no master, not even close), that if the person was trying to break out of your grip with force, you would not try to keep your grip, but rather do something else. For instance, if you grabbed the person's wrist, and they try to break out by doing a quick jerk down, you could follow that motion, then push up into their arm. Yes, this may not necessarily work, it all depends on the situation. In class, a fellow student and I were practicing, and we wondered how one can keep "grip" without tightening. I remembered that sticking and following is important, so I suggested an exercise in which one person puts both hands on the other person's forearm, and lightly wraps the fingers around the forearm. The partner moves their arm around, slowly at first, then faster and more jerky. The person grabbing attempts to be sensitive and follow the other person's movements rather than grabbing tightly in an attempt to maintain contact. A very interesting exercise, IMHO. This, I think, is an example of what makes Tai Ji different from external arts. It does not rely on physical strength. So yes, while physical strength is a factor if you are trying to maintain grip by holding, physical strength is (should) not be a factor in Tai Ji. Peace :)

[scotty1]

Thanks for the answer.

Excuse me while I mull. :)

I may still be thinking like an externalist.:eek:

[liangZhiCheng]

I may still be thinking like an externalist.

Ha ha. Yeah, that's pretty hard to overcome, regardless of whether you've studied external MAs or not. I think it's because "common sense" tells you that you need to be physically strong. Perhaps your teacher might have some suggestions as to how to work on developing a "soft" mentality :)

[scotty1]

Actually its my teacher who's told me that as well as the soft, we also need the hard. Tai chi is meant to represent balance, after all.

Once you have used your softness to gain a better, more advantageous position, what do you use to press your advantage?

If you are in a good position for a push, pull, strike, throw, would it not be more effective/damaging/powerful if as well as having good alignment, position and structure, you had some strength to put behind it?

Two guys spar with equal skill - hyopthetically, exactly equal. One guy is physically stronger - would he win?

Why did my extremely traditional old teacher emphasise the leg developing aspect of standing training so much if strength is not important?

Brute strength, no- elastic, trained strength, yes. Surely it only completes the circle?

Not being awkward, just rattling off thoughts before I go home.

[liangZhiCheng]

Actually its my teacher who's told me that as well as the soft, we also need the hard. Tai chi is meant to represent balance, after all.

I agree


If you are in a good position for a push, pull, strike, throw, would it not be more effective/damaging/powerful if as well as having good alignment, position and structure, you had some strength to put behind it?

Using excessive physical strength means tensing, which would work against good alignment. The truly effective techniques that I've had used on me felt like the other person was exerting very little effort. In pushing hands, (more specifically things like single handed offset or double handed offset), once the other person tries to use physical strength, it becomes much easier to control them. I am not, by any means, saying that one does not use "force". People with that idea do the form limply, and that is not Tai Chi.


Why did my extremely traditional old teacher emphasise the leg developing aspect of standing training so much if strength is not important?

Did your teacher train other martial arts? (Not disrespecting your teacher). In developing Tai Chi, I think that one does develop some strength, especially in the legs, at first because one doesn't know how to use the muscles without tensing them. One way to try to attain relaxation is to train so hard that your muscles cannot tense.

Let's look at the bow stance, one leg forward, 100% weight on the front leg (Wu Style). We use this stance when holding the bag for others practicing applications. Trying to use strength to resist the application leads to falling over. Relaxing, but not being limp, allows one to absorb the force. For awhile, I had the idea that according to Tai Chi principles, one only reacts to an incoming force. This was an incomplete understanding, however, as this does not mean that a Tai Chi practitioner only yields to attacks. The Tai Chi practitioner will attack, if necessary. But, the attack is flexible and able to adapt to the circumstances. An example you may have heard of is this: I punch, which is blocked, the continue in with my elbow, then shoulder. I'd still be using force, but if I were trying to use physical strength, I would not be able to continue in with my elbow. In conclusion, there is hardness in Tai Chi, but it is not the same hardness we see in external styles, IMHO.

[Fu-Pow]

You are only 16 yrs old!!!!

In my experience it is harder for younger people to get into Taiji because it is very slow moving and requires a lot of patience.

Shaolin kung fu is more physically demanding and faster paced. Results come quicker and are more obvious.

For younger people I would recommend a demanding Shaolin Kung Fu type art like Chang Quan, Bak Siu Lum, Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, etc.

Some might disagree and say that you should pick one art and stick with it the whole time. True, but you also have to find something that meets your tempement and we are lucky enough in the States to have options.

When and if I'm lucky enough to have my own school one day my plan is to teach younger people Choy Lay Fut and the older people Chen Taiji for the above reasons.

[[Censored]]

Have to disagree there, for me a solid argument is more than the "simple desire" to do something.

My desires are complicated, baby.

If we simply did things because the looked "interesting" i think we would find that mastery of any endevaour/achieving goals will become a thing of the past.

If we force ourselves to continue with a boring hobby, our practice will ultimately prove unsustainable.

Or maybe you can name a few tai chi masters who aren't interested in their art, and just wanted to achieve a goal?

[Lin-Wu]

Sorry,every taiji students in kung-fu forums!!!:o
I think I made a stereotype on tai ji students when I said they were phisically weak.What I meant is that taiji students don`t worry much about strenght related to other,more agressive, styles.I`m so sorry!!!!!!!!!

Taijiquan_student made a correct observation(I`m indeed a novice in tai ji,I`ve been doing it for 4 months only)and the same is true for Fu_Pow(Yes,I`m only 16).But I like tai ji(Yang forever!!!) and I don`t want short term results(besides,I could use some focus on my life:D )

I think I`m going to concentrate only in tai ji for now,and when I have "soaked" the basics,I will consider taking another MA

Censored,my teacher hasn`t gone deep in Aikido,but he studied for half a year,which makes me consider his advice about it.

One more thing,which Fu_Pow brought up.Don`t generalize(Like I did in the begging of the thread)!!!!!Tai ji is not an old-people martial art and I have fellow students of the same age.Please,don`t make that mistake anymore!(sorry to use your name here,Fu_Pow,I was just showing an example and I have no intention of humiliating you,if that`s what you`re thinking)

Lin-Wu

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Or maybe you can name a few tai chi masters who aren't interested in their art, and just wanted to achieve a goal?

While I wouldn't call them "masters" but there is a host of TJQ guys out there, that are more interested in selling TJQ, teaching and so on rather than mastering and advancing the art.

And, yes, even among the big names I consider one or two that fall into that category.

Cheers.

[GT]

Originally posted by Lin-Wu
Taijiquan_student made a correct observation(I`m indeed a novice in tai ji,I`ve been doing it for 4 months only)and the same is true for Fu_Pow(Yes,I`m only 16).But I like tai ji(Yang forever!!!) and I don`t want short term results(besides,I could use some focus on my life:D )
Hi Lin-Wu,

I have a student who started learning Traditional Yang with me when he was 15 years old. That was 2 years ago. He is progressing very well. It is nice to see him mature both as a young man and as a student of Tai Chi.

However, not many 15 year olds have the focus or attention span for Tai Chi. I had another student a few years ago, also 15 years old, but when told to go practice what he had learned: he would do a couple of repititions then sit down and watch, complaining his legs were sore. He quit after several months.

I think a main difference between the two is that the student who is still with me wanted to learn, had seen his uncle pratice Wu style in Hong Kong, did his research before coming to me, asked questions when I met him.

The student that quit after a couple months was coming mainly because his father wanted him to learn. His heart was not in it, nevermind his attention.

It really depends on the personality of the student. It is nice to see that you want to continue with the Yang style. Be prepared, it is a lot of hard work and will test your resolve. I hope you have a good teacher, it will make the journey much richer.

Best regards,

Guy Tomash
Vancouver, BC

[scotty1]

Mate I think we're talking about the same thing here! But I think that discussions like these are excellent, because they make you reconsider your ideas.

I had originally written a long post, but then I deleted it, because I think we're semantically debating but reaching the same conclusion.

My Chinese teacher didn't study anything but tai chi. But he utilised a lot of techniques that depended on a bend of the legs, followed by a straightening, to whip the opponent downwards. Hence the zhan zhuang to strengthen the legs (among other things).

Surely the stronger the legs, the more effective the motion? It doesn't matter how well aligned and relaxed the person is, if their legs are like wet noodles they are not going to have much effect. Surely that's just logical?

"In conclusion, there is hardness in Tai Chi, but it is not the same hardness we see in external styles, IMHO."

I agree 100%. We are talking about a fluid, relaxed type of hardness. What my current teacher calls "elastic strength" or "trained strength".

I think strength is a factor in the amount of force you can generate.
When you're issuing a force, IMO it will be generated and issued more effectively through a body that is robust and strong, in addition to having the correct body mechanics. That is not to say though, that the strength in that body should be used inappropriately, in a stiff and uncontrolled manner.

I am just saying that, somebody trying to damage/throw/push an opponent with alignment, position etc. will not be as effective as somebody with the same body mechanics but also some physical presence and able to put some oomph! into it.

When skill is equal, the person with greater size and strength will win IMO. They will always be factors, even in tai chi.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Have I missed something here???? Why do you need to suplement your Taiji? Are you not being tught good quality Taiji or something????

If you are then theres no need what so ever to Supplement it, it will be complete.

[bodhitree]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with practicing an internal and external style.

[liangZhiCheng]

Mate I think we're talking about the same thing here! But I think that discussions like these are excellent, because they make you reconsider your ideas.

I agree, discussions like these are great, especially when there are no egos involved :)


I think strength is a factor in the amount of force you can generate.
When you're issuing a force, IMO it will be generated and issued more effectively through a body that is robust and strong, in addition to having the correct body mechanics. That is not to say though, that the strength in that body should be used inappropriately, in a stiff and uncontrolled manner.

I am just saying that, somebody trying to damage/throw/push an opponent with alignment, position etc. will not be as effective as somebody with the same body mechanics but also some physical presence and able to put some oomph! into it.

I can see what you're saying, and frankly I'm not sure. Let me bring up a few things, however. First of all, I've read/been told that in Tai Chi, you become so soft that you are extrememly hard, but on the inside. Secondly, I remember reading a quote from a Tai Chi master (unfortunately I do not remember the book or master that said it). It went something like this "Give me a 20lb weight, and I am unable to lift it/throw it far, give me a 200lb man, and I will throw him 20 feet." This implies to me that the master's skill does not come from physical strength. Another example I read involved the Golden C0ck posture. The author was practicing in a park. An old man watched him and asked him to stand in the Golden C0ck posture for five minutes. Afterwards, he felt his leg and said he was too wooden. The old man then proceeded to stand in the posture for five minutes, and asked the author to feel his legs. The author said his legs felt like cotton. This relates to the saying that after practicing Tai Chi for a long time, your body becomes like cotton-wrapped iron, soft on the outside, hard on the inside. Lastly, in Tai Chi, we "borrow" from the other person's strength.



Surely the stronger the legs, the more effective the motion? It doesn't matter how well aligned and relaxed the person is, if their legs are like wet noodles they are not going to have much effect. Surely that's just logical?

Perhaps, but I think that learning Tai Chi means thinking differently. Could you be right? Yup. Could you be wrong? Yup. (Same applies for me)

Ok, strength. As I see it, Tai Chi can build strength. By practicing, we will strengthen the muscles that are underdeveloped, and for many people, this includes the legs, and especially the hips. I think that zhan zhuang eventually helps us to learn how to use our muscles without tension, and to use the minimum amount of energy necessary to hold the position. What we get from practice depends on what stage we're in. Frankly, I'm still building strength all over my body. However, at the same time, I'm beginning to learn how to relax the body and trying to use minimal physical strength. However, I can see your point that if skill was equal, size and strength will win the battle. Whether I believe that is true is still to be determined ;)

Thank you for this excellent discussion :cool:

[greendragon]

Yes to Aikido ! It has the same principles as TaiChi thus will augment your training. Shaolin has, at it's basic levels, the opposite in principles which may confuse you. I usually recommend shaolin to the young to start but if you are on the TaiChi path that is fine. Aikido will improve your progress and TCC will help you "get" the Aikido principles. Also Aikido should have a little hardness within it, you will learn strikes (atemi) but will use them as more of a distraction. Grappling arts have a large place in MA as the crux of a conflict is in the closed distance range. I speak from experience as i have become proficient in all 3 of these arts. The Shaolin i no longer need. The other 2 are usefull throughout life. I see TaiChi and Aikido being learned together more and more these days. Someday, far in the future, a new style combining them will emerge.

[Lin-Wu]

So,you would recomend studying these 2 MAs both in the beggining as I am,or would you recomend waiting until I have mastered the basics of tai ji?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Lin-Wu
So,you would recomend studying these 2 MAs both in the beggining as I am,or would you recomend waiting until I have mastered the basics of tai ji?

Sorry, not greendragon.

I would reckon wait 2~3 yrs before you start another art or atleast long enough till you got the first from down well in case it is a long form.

[Lin-Wu]

Thank you for the suggestions,everyone!!!You were very understanding with me,and I thank you for that,too!!See you when I have more questions,or when I can help you out with some opinions or suggestions of mine(yea,right:rolleyes: )
No more doubts about that,thanks to you all,and untill the next post or thread!

[Repulsive Monkey]

You've got to be joking about a new art emerging more on the future of mixing Aikido and Taiji together surely????

There will never ever be a need to as they are both complete arts.
Or hasn't your proficiency in all these 3 arts taught you that yet???

Taiji doesn't need anything that Aikido has in it, although Aikido could do with being even more internal than it is. As far as internal martial arts Aikido is as much internal as Xing-I.
There are a lot of differences between Aikido and Taiji you know, there are not that mutually as embracing as you think!

But there will never be a need to mix thr two together, or if you do at most you weill only dilute the arts.

[jun_erh]

Alot of the guys in "Chinese Boxing: masters and methods" (my bible) new some internal and external. Like the first guy Hung taught him a couple shaolin forms as well as internals. there's a beauty to someone like Chenmanching knowing just one style through and through, but most other masters I'm sure know a lot of styles to some extent

[8gates]

Hi! I'm new on this fourm.
I study the Yang Short Form, plus 13 Original Form.
I have been studying Aikido, for the past weeks, and there are
a lot of things in common between Tai Chi and Aikido.
I do not need Aikido as a additive for my Tai Chi, I had the
chance to study it, and I am glad that I did. I can compare movement of Aikido to Tai Chi. I find myself get a better understanding of movement.. (If I do this in Aikido, I would handle it this way in Yang Tai, and vice-versa)
I do not believe that I should make a "new form" out of this, However I do have to say, that I am really glad that I started Aikido.


I say go for it Lin-Wu.
Just my 2 Cents.