darting fingers

[namron]

Something I read recently got me thinking about how different lineages interpret the Bil jee finger thrusting sequence.

In TWC as I was taught the fingers thrust forward as a striking technique in the first part of the form, however I have visited other lineages and seen on video what I call the wrist wriggle.

In this alternative there is no foward striking energy and the wrist moves in a sinuous snake like movement but the elbow is static.

One old WC master in Adelaide told me years ago it was all to do with wrist conditioning and strengthening, which i dont believe.

Does anyone out there do bil gee this way, if so can they enlighten me as to why in the movement the elbow remains so static?


:)

[headstock]

Forgive me if im wrong as im humble SLT student, it's just i read somewhere that if a punch or similar strike is deflected or blocked at the last instance, the fingers can be darted out in a loose but sharp and fast manner to strike weak areas, i.e. the eyes, throat etc so that you can regain control.

[Phil Redmond]

namron, I was taught the "wrist wriggle" in the Biu Jee form by a number of WC Sifus over a period of 13 years before I learned TWC. I was told that the wriggle strengthened the wrist. I later found out the the whole arm should thrust out and the wrist should change direction just before impact. It is similar to the thrust with a foil or épée where the practitioner bends the wrist according to the desired striking angle. It's not Biu Jee, (thrusting/darting fingers, if the arm is static with only the hand and fingers "wriggling". For those who say the "wriggle" makes your wrist stronger I say that I prefer to practice the the strike the way I'm going to use it in combat to strengthen my wrist.

[Phil Redmond]

Using the wriggle alone and not using the arm is not as effective as using the whole arm in a Biu sao to block/strike. Economy is a tenet of WC. Why simply train with the wriggling wrist alone when you can train the whole arm and the wrist at the same time?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Good topic!


First we must look at the "wrist'wiggle" as it is being called and understand that perhpas that is not a so-called Biu Jee! Also, we must look back and find out why that "wrist wiggle" was re-located into the Biu Jee by some schools when it was normally a Siu Lin Tau type of training? So, if it was originally found in the SLT then what would its purpose be considering that it would be part of one basic development? Also, what would the advantages be of waiting until the Biu Jee to learn this skill but first we must understand its SLT purpose of development. In the end you will need to know both as both are part of WC but indeed two different concepts!


Regards,

[method man]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
namron, I was taught the "wrist wriggle" in the Biu Jee form by a number of WC Sifus over a period of 13 years before I learned TWC. I was told that the wriggle strengthened the wrist. I later found out the the whole arm should thrust out and the wrist should change direction just before impact. It is similar to the thrust with a foil or épée where the practioner bends the wrist according to the desired striking angle. It's not Biu Jee, (thrusting/darting fingers, if the arm is static with only the hand and fingers "wriggling". For those who say the "wriggle" makes your wrist stronger I say that I prefer to practice the the strike the way I'm going to use it in combat to strengthen my wrist.

u argument dont make sense if u thnik that way dont do form at all just practice strike this make most sense if u use u argument.

where u other hand in form lota time dont make sense either if u keep thinkng just applicaton aplication aplication

no form make sense for anything if use this argumen just go practis spar/fight otherwise figur out another use for form!!!!!!!!!!!

[namron]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
oops. Can anybody clarify for me if it's the horizontal wriggle we are speaking of here or the vertical wriggle? There's both. One's like an exaggerated jut sau...

empty cup,

either,

because in the first section of the Biu jee both hand orientations are included.

I do appreciate your comment. Even in the 'thrusting' version of the form I do where the elbow moves with the wrist i can see how the arm movements may be used as an effective jut, bil finger strike counter (much like the jut bil section on the dummy).

However IMO the elbow would still have to move horizontally on the jut and then extend towards the opponent for the strike.

I find that most of the the Biu jee strikes can be used as blocks and vice versa.

I just wanted to find out if there is a reason I have overlooked as to why some lineages extend the elbow while others concentrate exclusively on the wrist movement in this particular form.

[namron]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
namron, I was taught the "wrist wriggle" in the Biu Jee form by a number of WC Sifus over a period of 13 years before I learned TWC. I was told that the wriggle strengthened the wrist. I later found out the the whole arm should thrust out and the wrist should change direction just before impact. It is similar to the thrust with a foil or épée where the practioner bends the wrist according to the desired striking angle. It's not Biu Jee, (thrusting/darting fingers, if the arm is static with only the hand and fingers "wriggling". For those who say the "wriggle" makes your wrist stronger I say that I prefer to practice the the strike the way I'm going to use it in combat to strengthen my wrist.

What you've said is my present understanding, although minus the additional training.

I still cant credit the wrist strengthening reasoning.

Was hoping others might shed some light.

[namron]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,


Good topic!


First we must look at the "wrist'wiggle" as it is being called and understand that perhpas that is not a so-called Biu Jee! Also, we must look back and find out why that "wrist wiggle" was re-located into the Biu Jee by some schools when it was normally a Siu Lin Tau type of training? So, if it was originally found in the SLT then what would its purpose be considering that it would be part of one basic development? Also, what would the advantages be of waiting until the Biu Jee to learn this skill but first we must understand its SLT purpose of development. In the end you will need to know both as both are part of WC but indeed two different concepts!
Regards,
Jim,


The plot thickens.

If it wasnt a Biu Jee, was it for wrist conditioning (which I cannot credit), blocking (without elbow movement unlikely) or a concept for training centreline theory (which would explain my it was in SLT and why the elbow remains static).

The remaining WC forms are more dynamic than SLT with more application, striking and footwork, why then the renaissance with this particular foundation methodology? Thats assuming of course there isnt a multitude of other interpretations out there that stand up.

[namron]

Originally posted by headstock
Forgive me if im wrong as im humble SLT student, it's just i read somewhere that if a punch or similar strike is deflected or blocked at the last instance, the fingers can be darted out in a loose but sharp and fast manner to strike weak areas, i.e. the eyes, throat etc so that you can regain control.



Yep I agree.

One interpretation coming off the line of the strike or clearing the path to the target. Just as you can deflect a straight punch with your own straight punch by coming off the line of the attack.
(punch is a block, block is a strike.)

These scenarios still need input from the elbow IMO to derive distance and power for the strike.

Unfortunately the above still does not scratch my itch.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Namro,


The plot thickens.

Doesn't it always! hehehe

If it wasnt a Biu Jee,

It isn't! Keeping in mind that it is part of 1st section SLT development and not a darting finger type of movement.

was it for wrist conditioning (which I cannot credit),

Really? Hmmm, that is part of it believe it or not. Have you ever just isolated that skill? Probally not from your lack of credit to that part of the development from that training. Why not sit down tonight and watch some TV. Then, extend one hand out and do about 300 of those. Then do the other hand. Write what you felt on here tomorrow! Please realize that it may be done slightly different from school to school! Some may just isolate the arm and move the fingers only and some may sway the whole arm and some may isolate the arm and work with the fingers/wrist movement. Pick the easiest one (which would be just finger movement) and give it a try.

blocking (without elbow movement unlikely) or a concept for training centreline theory (which would explain my it was in SLT and why the elbow remains static).

Well, certainly the Duen Kiu idea can be utilized when facing a really fast opponent and make use of the very short quick snaps ala minor movement but that is just a side product and would not be something for developing the roots of a WC boxer.

The remaining WC forms are more dynamic than SLT with more application, striking and footwork, why then the renaissance with this particular foundation methodology? Thats assuming of course there isnt a multitude of other interpretations out there that stand up.

The forms progressively build upon each other. Chum Kiu is almost like a moving SLT but with more concepts adding on to the development. BJ adds a new twist to everything and helps out when the SLT/CK make a mistake. Of course there is more to it that than but going with the idea that everything is progressive, then we must think about what would this major concept for development be when it is located in the FIRST section of the SLT? Its right in the beginning so what can it be? Things that make you go hmmmm!


See ya,

[reneritchie]

I learned something similar in SLT, not BJ, and the way I learned the motions described all the fundemental angles the bridge could be used to attack or defend without the fingers or elbow moving (just the wrist).

Thus, in bridge-to-bridge contact, you could redirect a strike from any angle without giving up the center, or when striking, could attack from any angle without giving it up.

Coming with that were the usual Yit Gan (tendon changing) benefits.

Every move should be useful in attack and defense, in highlight a concept, and in training the body to optimally realize the concept for the attack and defense.

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya RR,


BINGO! You got it!


Greetz,
Jim


I learned something similar in SLT, not BJ, and the way I learned the motions described all the fundemental angles the bridge could be used to attack or defend without the fingers or elbow moving (just the wrist).

Thus, in bridge-to-bridge contact, you could redirect a strike from any angle without giving up the center, or when striking, could attack from any angle without giving it up.

Coming with that were the usual Yit Gan (tendon changing) benefits.

Every move should be useful in attack and defense, in highlight a concept, and in training the body to optimally realize the concept for the attack and defense.

[Phil Redmond]

Hello method man,
Your post was somewhat unclear to me. But there are useful applications in the forms. My main concern IS application. That's why I study Wing Chun.

[method man]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hello method man,
Your post was somewhat unclear to me. But there are useful applications in the forms. My main concern IS application. That's why I study Wing Chun.

no no sorry i not queston u reson learn wc

but i say if u look form for aplication then any form any style make no sense is just cheogrphe just like cha cha or somting but if form for build trait then very clear.........aplicaton just extra prize........ lota hand in form make no cense if look at aplcaton but very clear for concpt

u wan aplcaton throw away form just figh/spar or least practis dummy if nobody arond but u look for aplcation in form u keep change form for diffrnt aplcaton waste alot time for noncense like rearrang deck chair on titanic is crazy no????????

[jonp]

tbh im not gonna be hurtin myself hittin people with my fingers in the biu jee anyhow

forarms mate thas the real deal

peace

[namron]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I learned something similar in SLT, not BJ, and the way I learned the motions described all the fundemental angles the bridge could be used to attack or defend without the fingers or elbow moving (just the wrist).

Thus, in bridge-to-bridge contact, you could redirect a strike from any angle without giving up the center, or when striking, could attack from any angle without giving it up.

Coming with that were the usual Yit Gan (tendon changing) benefits.

Every move should be useful in attack and defense, in highlight a concept, and in training the body to optimally realize the concept for the attack and defense.

Jim / Rene

Ta

Gives a good insight.

Im still not crazy about the wrist conditioning reasoning though.

Cheers

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Namron!



Jim / Rene

Ta

Gives a good insight.

:)

Im still not crazy about the wrist conditioning reasoning though.

Why not do 100 with each hand for about 3 months and then come back and write what you feel. Until then you really cannot understand what happens inside. I know TWC does not focus on that aspect so why not try. The wrist will strengthen and the Noi Gung will also start to develop. Sometimes different things not only have an application but a cultivation!

Cheers

[yuanfen]

Empty Cup- biu jee is not just for hitting with fingers.
Plus- what Bruce Lee did with his fingers is irrelevant to wing chun- he didnt know biu jee.

[Sam]

Biu Gee is not a hard thrusting strike but a penetrating, ********y energy strike. One must have the proper Hei Gung in order to transmit energy and proper vibration to the fingers. One must also know the angle, direction, and points to strike. That is where the forms map them out for you. In Fut Sao Siu Lin Tao is not a basic form. Once one has progress through the system each form elevates the knowledge of the last. Once you've completed the system each form in itself contains all the concepts and laws of the whole system. Truth is truth and must be reflected in all your movements. As Siu Lin Tao states (Little, small, idea or transmutation) look inward. Bigger, outer techniques should evolve to a smaller more potent, purer technique. Refined to a fine vibrational point. The most powerful energy is the splitting of the atom. http://futsaoyongchunkuen.com/

[Sam]

Biu Gee is not a hard thrusting strike but a penetrating, vibrational energy strike. One must have the proper Hei Gung in order to transmit energy and proper vibration to the fingers. One must also know the angle, direction, and points to strike. That is where the forms map them out for you. In Fut Sao Siu Lin Tao is not a basic form. Once one has progress through the system each form elevates the knowledge of the last. Once you've completed the system each form in itself contains all the concepts and laws of the whole system. Truth is truth and must be reflected in all your movements. As Siu Lin Tao states (Little, small, idea or transmutation) look inward. Bigger, outer techniques should evolve to a smaller more potent, purer technique. Refined to a fine vibrational point. The most powerful energy is the splitting of the atom. http://futsaoyongchunkuen.com/

[yuanfen]

If one pays close attention to the mantis fight story- he used biu and lop- and the guy went flying and then crumpled. That should tell you some things about biu jee.

Bruce lee's finger strike, fut sao's hei gong based biu--- far afield
IMO...but opinions can vary---ok by me.

[yuanfen]

Not always stories. Gin Foon Mark the Minneapolis based
southern mantis great can do amazing things with his fingers, his phoenix eye and ginger fist.

There are some wing chun folks who can do amazing things.

One doesnt walk up to Chen Xiao Wang and say- show me what you can do with a Chen elbow strike.

Then there are folks like Master Pan in Toronto-he with the built up knuckles. he is a bit more into show boating.


But first rate folks of some arts are not active on the net, do not brag about what they can do and not really interested in showing off.

[yuanfen]

Master Pan is in your backyard in Toronto. Central character in the movie Iron and Silk. Northern stylist, wushu coach etc.
Bangs his knuckles on iron every day. Good with kwan do and weapons.

[namron]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Master Pan is in your backyard in Toronto. Central character in the movie Iron and Silk. Northern stylist, wushu coach etc.
Bangs his knuckles on iron every day. Good with kwan do and weapons.

that guys hands have gotta hurt on a cold morning!