Mastering Kung Fu [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

duende

09-10-2003, 09:38 AM

Hello everyone.

I thought this would be a nice opportunity for my first post as there seems to be some confusion as to what is actually taking place in this picture. But that's understandable, considering all the various strains of Wing Chun going on in this forum.

Let me first preface this by saying that I in no way claim to be a master of Wing Chun, I can only give you an interpretation from my learning experiences thus far. Having said that, I have to say that Rolling Hand was very perceptive in stating that the cover "Mastering King Fu" demonstrates a harmonious use of Yin and Yang in combat.

Not only is it apparent to me that Yin and Yang energy is being shown on a large scale with the hard energy from Benny's TKD attack being absorbed and redirected by Sifu Gee's technique. But, on a smaller scale if you look at Sifu Gee himself alone, you can see the usage of both Ying and Yang energy in his technique.

On a side note, if any of you know Benny, then you are well aware that Sifu Gee is DEFINITELY NOT supporting his kick.

Obviously 3-dimensional spacial details become obscured when they are captured in the 2-dimensional medium of a photograph. But from what I can see, it looks like Sifu Gee has nuetralized Benny's kick in a Fat Sau trapping technique. The left arm being the Fat Sau (hard energy) and the right arm being used for redirection-absorbtion/safety-control (soft energy). Those of you who have been to one of Sifu Gee's seminars may have witnessed the enormous structural strength provided by a Fat Sau when done correctly. This of course is all present in our SLT.

It also may be of interest for you to know, that from what I see, Benny is in a dire situation. Sifu Gee's footwork is well set-up for an upcoming Storm kick to snap Benny's grounded leg at the knee.

Personally, the more I look at it, the more I can see why it was chosen for a cover as it demonstrates the nature of our system on both small and large scales. As a musician, I often have to formally analyze musical compositions, and more often than not, what makes a good score is the presence of a unifying theme or logic flow that is apparent at all perspectives (macro and micro-cosmic). In music theory and others, this is known as organicism. For me, this picture is a valid demonstration of the logic flow in our system.

Okay, aside from my little musical 2 cents, I hope I have helped you all in some way.

Alex

Rolling_Hand

09-10-2003, 10:00 AM

<<Can you please explain what is and how the technics works against in the picture? I am confused. not joking.>>Hendrik

Hendrik,

You're confused, hahaha...that's nothing new about that. (hint:Phenix you started a thread on physics and then want to discuss strategy.)

A stable mind leads to better practice, which in turn can lead to samadhi. If your bodily karma and verbal karma are relatively undefiled, then your mind will tend to be more stable and pure.

With Ch'an one is aware of what one is doing, thinking and saying. It's just that you detach yourself from your problem. Most problems are due to attaching to a view of self, or to recurring thought or behavioral pattern. Alawys remember, but there be a harmony in the contraditions within you, than you will reach to the highest point and the highest peak in your art.

reneritchie

09-10-2003, 11:46 AM

Alex,

Welcome to the forum and thank you very much for your excellent post!

passing_through

09-10-2003, 01:50 PM

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Contents
Chapter 1: Northern and Southern Shaolin Development
Chapter 2: Genesis of Shaolin Wing Chun and Hung Fa Yi History Beyond the
Southern Shaolin Temple
Chapter 3: Philosophy and Etiquette of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun
Chapter 4: The Core of Hung Fa Yi Science: Space, Time and Energy
Chapter 5: The Wing Chun Formula
Chapter 6: Siu Nim Tau Level Science and Skill Development
Chapter 7: Chum Kiu Level Knowledge and Skill Development
Chapter 8: Biu Ji Level Knowledge and Skill Development
Chapter 9: Hung Fa Yi Wooden Dummy and Weapons

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reneritchie

09-10-2003, 02:27 PM

Hey Jeremy,

What's the ETA? Do copies from the VTM (as opposed to Amazon or some other outlet) come autographed?

MustafaUcozler

09-10-2003, 03:01 PM

By the way, Andreas Hoffman has a book out,too. It supposedly shows all the forms of Weng Chun.

Unfortunately it's only for us German speaking folks, so for the majority of the people here it would be only a pictorial. I might actually get it and see if there is anything at all similar to Sum Nung Wing Chun, since Fung Siu-Ching is in the direct ancestry of both Sum Nung Wing Chun and Weng Chun, although both seem to be almost totally different arts.

Oh yeah, the book is called: "Weng Chun Kung Fu - Die weiche Kraft von Shaolin" or translated: "Weng Chun Kung Fu - The soft Force of Shaolin"

Anyone got the book, yet? Rene?

Mustafa

Zhuge Liang

09-10-2003, 03:10 PM

Hi Alex,

This is Alan, from Ken Chung's school. Did I meet you when I came up to visit your class? I'm terrible with names. If you are who I think you are, then would you or any other of your sihengdais be interested in meeting again to share notes about Wing Chun? I was interested in HFY Kiu Sai and was wondering if I might learn more about it. I've already spoken to William about it, but his schedule is understandably tight. Please let me know. You can email me at alan_ngai@yahoo.com if you wish.

Regards,
Alan

taltos

09-10-2003, 03:13 PM

I have a copy of the book. It's a large book with a red cover.

Mustafa is correct in that it is entirely in German. Luckily I can read most of it (my German is completely useless conversationally but I can read like a grammar school child, so I could puzzle through about 80% of it).

The photos are very straightforward, and even if you can't read the text, you can pretty much figure out the motions being captured.

-Levi

MustafaUcozler

09-10-2003, 03:36 PM

Hi Levi,

Are really all Forms in there? Including the weapons? What about Chi-Sao/Kiu Sao?

Thanks,
Mustafa

Phenix

09-10-2003, 04:07 PM

Alex ,

Thanks and appreciate for your explaination.
Great!

Chango

09-10-2003, 04:14 PM

Alex,
Welcome to the board! I have to agree that was an excellent explination and post! I must say that for those of use with first hand experience with the HFY system can almost feel the experience of the Yin/Yan energy, structure of the futsao and others.

Rollinghand,
I don't think he will ever understand. I think in his heart he desires to be " right " about HFY. But there is no Right or wrong there just is! LOL!

Hendrik,
your hearts desires seems to be so bright that it's blinding your eyes from seeing what is in front of you. please read the book for further understanding of the topics listed. Then the quality of conversation can grow.

Levi,
I have to admit I don't know the first thing about the German language but through my exprience from my Chi sim training.
I feel that I understand alot of what the book is comunicating. The connection through exprience is a strong one! LOL! not knowing the language of the book I can enjoy it on a entire diferent level!

Sifu Chango Noaks

Phenix

09-10-2003, 04:17 PM

RH,

Alex did a great job explaining his view. Whether I agree or not. he did a great job talking technical.

as for you, read your post again. do you know what you are talking about? if you cant even answer a simple question but drag on to lots of your own illusion , the conclusion is you have no clue about what is what. and by the way, you have you have zero clue on Chan.

so thanks but no thanks.
Alex's view answer my question.

Phenix

09-10-2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Chango

Hendrik,
your hearts desires seems to be so bright that it's blinding your eyes from seeing what is in front of you. please read the book for further understanding of the topics listed. Then the quality of conversation can grow.

Sifu Chango Noaks

Chango,

Thanks,

you are right, my heart desire is still left in Bangkok ...or SEA

And, both the kyokushin and Muay Thai experience blinding my eyes .

especially, Mas Oyama himself taught us kyokushin what to do and not to do against those base ball bat breaking type of round horse kick.

In the mean time, i read and respect from others teaching. but i still trust Mas Oyama more then anyone.

When I am in doubt about somethings I ask politely instead of compare everything to Mas Oyama and make my conclusion about others view without understanding.

Well, you could be better then Mas Oyama.
so, i appreciate you advise.

John Weiland

09-10-2003, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Phenix
And, both the kyokushin and Muay Thai experience blinding my eyes .

especially, Mas Oyama himself taught us kyokushin what to do and not to do against those base ball bat breaking type of round horse kick.

In the mean time, i read and respect from others teaching. but i still trust Mas Oyama more then anyone.

When I am in doubt about somethings I ask politely instead of compare everything to Mas Oyama and make my conclusion about others view without understanding.

Well, you could be better then Mas Oyama.
so, i appreciate you advise.
I saw the photo. I didn't understand it or Alex's explanation of it. I doubt that I'm better than Mas Oyama, but of all the ways to defend against a high round house kick, what would you do? I wouldn't begin to hope you'd put your hand up in that fashion for me to break,

Some of us don't know Yin from Yang, but if you cannot avoid the kick, would you put out your hand behind the incoming calf to have it broken on the kick's return, or would you choose receive it on on forearm or hand as in the picture. I question this approach, but that's just me, of course. :p

Regards,

taltos

09-10-2003, 05:28 PM

Mustafa,

I don't know if there are more forms in the Chi Sim system than are illustrated in the book, but the book has the Fa Kuen, the Sup Yee Kuen, the Saam Baai Fat, the Pole, and the Swords (if memory serves - it's been a while since I've looked at it and I currently only know the Fa Kuen form well enough to practice). There are some illustrations of applications, and some historical photos as well (and a family tree I believe).

Sibak Chango,

I agree wholeheartedly. I had the book and had read through it before I really started to learn the Fa Kuen form, and after I had learned it, the photos were really all I needed. I could see more that what you can get in a static photo. But I'm sure that's true of just about anything you have a greater knowledge of.

Peace,

-Levi

duende

09-10-2003, 05:33 PM

To the contributors of this thread...

My sincere thanks for the warm welcome! I'm glad I could share with you some of my insights into the HFY technique on the cover of "Mastering Kung Fu". And for the record, I do not expect or even want you all to agree with me. I have no problem with us all seeing things different.

To Alan (aka Zhuge Liang)

Yes we did meet when you came to check out our school, although we didn't talk that much (as you were tied up in a discussion with William). I do remember commenting though on how nice it was for Sifu Gee to cut so much into our class time for you.

I really don't know what I could tell you more than Sifu Gee himself. If you are truly interested in HFY Wing Chun, and want to learn more then visit our website at www.hfy108.com, buy the book that this thread is about, or come to a Kiu Sau seminar! Beyond that, I would say the next thing for you to do is to sign up for some classes.

yuanfen

09-10-2003, 05:43 PM

John W. and Hendrik--

I think that hands "blocking" an Oyama kick most likely means hospitalization....but then a demo is just a demo and a cover just a cover.

duende

09-10-2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by John Weiland

I saw the photo. I didn't understand it or Alex's explanation of it. I doubt that I'm better than Mas Oyama, but of all the ways to defend against a high round house kick, what would you do? I wouldn't begin to hope you'd put your hand up in that fashion for me to break,

Some of us don't know Yin from Yang, but if you cannot avoid the kick, would you put out your hand behind the incoming calf to have it broken on the kick's return, or would you choose receive it on on forearm or hand as in the picture. I question this approach, but that's just me, of course. :p

Regards,

John,

It's okay for you not to understand.

And hopefully without sounding condescending, let me address what I see as the root of your not understanding. Your conclusion is drawn without the awareness of NOT... I say NOT using force against force. It would be completely idiotic to try to block that powerful of a kick with direct opposing energy, as it surely would, like you state... break! It would again be idiotic to just stagnate their like a dead piece of wood for the return energy of the kick to snap.

I would reccomend taking into consideration that a photo is just a brief... very very brief moment of time. I think what actually precedes this moment in time, and what happens there after elude you.

Phenix

09-10-2003, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
John W. and Hendrik--

I think that hands "blocking" an Oyama kick most likely means hospitalization....but then a demo is just a demo and a cover just a cover.

Hi Joy, John, Alex,

I understand.

the reason I ask, is to understand. See, as you know, different people uses different technics. And, different people has their strong and weakness and sometimes there are twist in the technics.... see, even with round house kicks as you already knows, TKD and Kyokushin and Muay Thai delivers them differently. with Kyokushin closer to Muay thai.

So, My intention of asking Rolling Hand is that I would like to understand. Alex did a great job explaining. And I am glad.

As for bring up the Kyokushin, Since Chango claiming I am blind, so ,I honestly brought Mas Oyamas' teaching which I have learn and still blindly bias with. Yes, I am blind because I am a Kyokushin and proud to be one. But, that is just present my view on Chango's comments. Hope that this clear things up and not mislead you people.

See, Chango loves to joke with me, sometimes he claim I am bankcrupt and sometimes he claim I am blind. Well, that is ok. It turns out I don't like about saving account investment as I think Chango see most people are. I love mix stocks and high rish stock and not putting all eggs into one basket phylosophy of the Vally. :D Kyokushin is a high risk stock but high pay back. once one invest in it at very young age.

I like Alex's way of communication. and believe and respect there is reason behind people doing things. So, hopefully, we all can communicate similar to Alex. who is perfect? none. but we can listern to other's reason with respect right?

Zhuge Liang

09-10-2003, 07:11 PM

Hi Alex,

Originally posted by duende
To Alan (aka Zhuge Liang)

Yes we did meet when you came to check out our school, although we didn't talk that much (as you were tied up in a discussion with William). I do remember commenting though on how nice it was for Sifu Gee to cut so much into our class time for you.

It was indeed very nice of Gee sifu and I am very grateful for it. He was a very gracious host.

But with regards to kiu sau, I was thinking more along the lines of getting a "feel" for what it is like. When I met up with students of other schools, most cases I was able to get a much better understanding of their respective systems through touch (eg friendly chi sao). I felt it was unfortunate that we didn't have the time to do the same. Please consider my offer, and let me know if you or any sihengdais are interested. It's not a problem for me to come up to SF.

I might be, in fact, interested in attending a seminar. Am I correct to assume that I can find the seminar schedules on the vtmuseum website?

Thanks again,
Alan

Chango

09-10-2003, 08:43 PM

Hendrick,

Quote: As for bring up the Kyokushin, Since Chango claiming I am blind, so ,I honestly brought Mas Oyamas' teaching which I have learn and still blindly bias with. Yes, I am blind because I am a Kyokushin and proud to be one. But, that is just present my view on Chango's comments.

--Ok Hendreek you seem do alot of pointing to your knowlege of the sutra. I was just wondering what is taught about "pride". You say you are "proud". Hmmm (raising and eyebrow) fascinating.

I have to say that I also enjoy reading about Mas Oyamas' teaching. He was truely a great martial artist and had excellent showmanship. From what I have read of course. Just think what it would have been like to have actual experiences with him. Reading and experiences just arn't the same Huh Hendrik? :)

Oh and by the way I did not know that my "bankrupt" comment caused you so much suffering that it remains with you. I appologize. Ok so now we have to do something about this blindness. LOL!

Make sure you are investing a an actual stock and not verson of the stock that seems to be reporting one thing but reality is another. Of course noone blames the Enron employees just the crooks that falsely represented Enron. The entire company was not bad just the few that choose to gain from reporting one thing while know another. So withthis in mind let us all review our portfolio and find out if the representatives are really representives of a stock or self appointed. I mean when you ask other investers about that stock. Shouldn't thye know them if asked ?

Just food for thought mr lay oops I mean Hendrick. You know I just like to joke :)

MustafaUcozler

09-10-2003, 11:28 PM

Hi Levi,

Ok, in Weng Chun there is:

1. Weng Chun Kuen

2. Fa Kuen

3. Saam Pai Fat

4. Jong Kuen

5. Ng Jong Hei Gung (Hei Gung Form)

6. Muk Yan Jong

7. Luk Dim Boon Gwun

8. Kwun Jong (Pole Dummy)

9. Fu Mo Siong Dao (Knives)

So, can you do me a favor and tell me if all these Forms are in the book? I am asking because in the "Contents" section for the book on Andreas' website it says "All Forms" as one of the items, which would imply that all Forms are in there.

Thanks,
Mustafa

taltos

09-10-2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by MustafaUcozler
can you do me a favor and tell me if all these Forms are in the book?

Sure. I'll check the next chance I get. :)

-Levi

Edmund

09-10-2003, 11:57 PM

There are a few different ways to redirect the kick that could match up to the photo.

e.g. the top hand can chop down on the calf and the bottom hand can lift and turn at the ankle to twist the leg around.

Or the bottom hand can just lift with the top hand as more of a guard.

Moving the body also will prevent it from being a hard block.

Originally posted by John Weiland

I saw the photo. I didn't understand it or Alex's explanation of it. I doubt that I'm better than Mas Oyama, but of all the ways to defend against a high round house kick, what would you do? I wouldn't begin to hope you'd put your hand up in that fashion for me to break,

Some of us don't know Yin from Yang, but if you cannot avoid the kick, would you put out your hand behind the incoming calf to have it broken on the kick's return, or would you choose receive it on on forearm or hand as in the picture. I question this approach, but that's just me, of course. :p

Regards,

jonp

09-11-2003, 12:59 AM

looks like the cover was designed in the 80's

peace

reneritchie

09-11-2003, 06:21 AM

Mustafa,

Highlights from all the sets are shown, not the complete pictorial sequences of the entire sets themselves.

If you look at the main body of Sum Nung WCK, you will see the Foshan WCK of Wong Wah-Bo & Fok Bo-Chuen. Yuen Kay-San did not learn any sets from Fung (who was 70 already at the time of their training), but close range fighting methods. These are in the form of San Sik, and these San Sik do not look the same as regular SNWCK. I've discussed them with Andreas and he found them similar to some of his San Sik.

Hendrik, Rolling Hand, & Chango, please try and keep this thread free from personal references. I'm sure we're all mature enough to discuss the art and not dwell on each other.

And note, I believe Benny is a TKD kicker, not a Kyukoshin or Thai kicker, and the photograph is showing a response to that type of kick, which may well be different from what a response to a Kyokoshin or Thai kick would be.

Phenix

09-11-2003, 07:24 AM

Chango,

Thank you for your advise. I agree with you. Enron is bad.

Thus, when we in the valley buy stocks. we check the vc, founder, ceo, .... products...all the line. we only buy the stock when it's ceo and founders ... are clear , identify able..and; similar to Kyokushin---"get what you see" type, but not enron's show business--- no product type which you describe well.

we want to check how the stock perform and its history of performance. such as kyokushin is one good product test by Thai fighters.

Phenix

09-11-2003, 07:38 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]Mustafa,

Hendrik, Rolling Hand, & Chango, please try and keep this thread free from personal references. I'm sure we're all mature enough to discuss the art and not dwell on each other.---r

Rene,
true.
if you read my post for joy, john, and Alex, that is what i have in mind. but, what can one do when others interested and commenting personal reference ?
ok, i will not response anymore.

And note, I believe Benny is a TKD kicker, not a Kyukoshin or Thai kicker, and the photograph is showing a response to that type of kick, which may well be different from what a response to a Kyokoshin or Thai kick would be. ---R

no disrespect, and i post before that i respect everyone's reasoning, i have no issue about demo....

however, i disagree with your ---"the photograph is showing a response to that type of kick, which may well be different from what a response to a Kyokoshin or Thai kick would be."
lets carry this topic out to a new topic.

canglong

09-11-2003, 08:19 AM

Welcome to the discussion Alex your input is much appreciated considering your proximity to the source.

Zhuge Liang, best wishes with all your kiu sau training, feel free to read up more on hfy108.com.

originally posted by John Weiland
I saw the photo. I didn't understand it or Alex's explanation of it. Some of us don't know Yin from Yang...I question this approach, but that's just me, of course.

John, sounds as if you are the targeted consumer for this book. I hope you enjoy reading about proper structure, ying and yang energies and how when and what things should be questioned in modern day WCK.
originally posted by yuanfen
I think that hands "blocking" an Oyama kick most likely means hospitalization....but then a demo is just a demo and a cover just a cover. yuanfen, using words such as "most likely" shows a lack of complete awareness. This book can help you as well.

William E

09-11-2003, 09:20 AM

Welcome sihing Alex to the discussions and thank you for your invaluable insight as always.

Although I was not present at the photo shoot to me it looks like the kick that GM Gee is defeating is a sidekick with more striaght forward energy and not a snapping roundhouse kick. In this timeframe kick has already been extended with no more forward energy (absorbed) while the leg is being uprooted and his centerline about to be destroyed.

Of course this is only a snapshot in time and does not reflect the true nature of what has happened before or after.

William E.

duende

09-11-2003, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Hi Alex,

It was indeed very nice of Gee sifu and I am very grateful for it. He was a very gracious host.

But with regards to kiu sau, I was thinking more along the lines of getting a "feel" for what it is like. When I met up with students of other schools, most cases I was able to get a much better understanding of their respective systems through touch (eg friendly chi sao). I felt it was unfortunate that we didn't have the time to do the same. Please consider my offer, and let me know if you or any sihengdais are interested. It's not a problem for me to come up to SF.

I might be, in fact, interested in attending a seminar. Am I correct to assume that I can find the seminar schedules on the vtmuseum website?

Thanks again,
Alan

Alan,

I didn't want to stray off topic but here I go...

I can see from your above post that you really don't understand Kiu Sau.
With all do respect to everyone's version of Wing Chun, let me just say that you can't just try out Kiu Sau. It's not like trying on a new pair of shoes. There are fundamental body mechanics that are absolutely required for one to perform Kiu Sau effectively.

On top of that if you consider how vastly different our two versions of Wing Chun are, then maybe you can more understand why I suggested a seminar (two days) over a simple meeting.

On the other hand if you had in mind to just try out your Chi Sau against my Kiu Sau, then I would have to say you are once again going down the wrong path. Let me explain why....

1. Kiu Sau is not meant as an opposing technique or alternative to Chi Sau. In a combat situation there are different stages or progressions that take place due to the variations in distance that occur between two opponents. Kiu Sau is meant to come at an earlier stage and lead to Chi Sau. NOT replace it.

2. Kiu Sau occurs from the blind side while Chi Sau occurs directly facing. Opponents wouldn't be facing eachother correctly.

3. Kiu Sau makes contact at the forearms, Chi Sau makes contact at the wrist. Rolling hands would require one opponent doing their technique wrong.

Kiu Sau was designed for anti-grappling and not for what you seem to think.

So now do you see why I made my earlier suggestions??? I would suggest that instead of going to different WC schools, and playing Chi Sau that you go to a Judo school and see how effective your Chi Sau is against one of there students when he rushes you. That will probably give you the best understanding as to why we have Kiu Sau in our system.

On a final note, if you are really just after seeing what our student's energy is like, then I can tell you, that we try to cultivate BOTH the hard and soft energies of Yin and Yang. On a personal note, if you are just trying to touch my hand... all I can say is that apart from coming to a seminar, or coming up to the mission SF and trying to mug me, that I have no interest in playing chi Sau.

Okay.... back to the topic!

MustafaUcozler

09-11-2003, 11:07 AM

Hi Rene,

Thanks for the info. Just a question though. How did you figure out the connection between Wong Wah Bo and Fok Bo Chuen? It makes total sense to me, but didn't Sum Nung himself say that Dai Fa Min Kam taught both Fok Bo Chuen and Fung Siu Ching?

That does not quite make sense seeing how Weng Chun is so different, unless Dai Fa Min kam was a genious and knew both Wing Chun and Weng Chun.

But again, where did you find the connection between Wong Wah Bo and Fok Bo Chuen? Or did you deduct it from observation of different lineages?

Thanks,
Mustafa

Sandman2[Wing Chun]

09-11-2003, 11:42 AM

Good to see that this book is finally ready, congratulations to everyone who worked towards getting the info out there. Hopefully it will prove to be informative.

Phil Redmond

09-11-2003, 11:53 AM

Goblin? Hi, is kiu sao anything like the crossing arms used in the movie ETD? TWC calls that cross arm chi sao.

Zhuge Liang

09-11-2003, 12:00 PM

Hi Alex,

Thanks for taking the time to explain to me. Just a few notes...

"I can see from your above post that you really don't understand Kiu Sau."

No doubt, which was why I was interested in a second meeting in the first place. William did a great job of explaining some of the basic concepts (such as facing, etc.) that you covered, but I guess I just wanted to see more. I'll admit I'm greedy. =)

"With all do respect to everyone's version of Wing Chun, let me just say that you can't just try out Kiu Sau. It's not like trying on a new pair of shoes. There are fundamental body mechanics that are absolutely required for one to perform Kiu Sau effectively."

I don't doubt that at all. I know you guys spend a lot of time perfecting your Wing Chun according to the HFY formula and I don't expect to perform any aspect of it and do it justice after just one visit. I don't expect to be able to do differential calculus after one class either, especially if I haven't gone through the prerequisites. But that doesn't mean I can't try to understand more about it. Through literature, through conversation, through touching hands, and as you suggested, through seminars. I have to start somewhere right? Given our first friendly meeting, I thought that a second one would be a good place to start.

"On the other hand if you had in mind to just try out your Chi Sau against my Kiu Sau, then I would have to say you are once again going down the wrong path. Let me explain why....

1. Kiu Sau is not meant as an opposing technique or alternative to Chi Sau. In a combat situation there are different stages or progressions that take place due to the variations in distance that occur between two opponents. Kiu Sau is meant to come at an earlier stage and lead to Chi Sau. NOT replace it."

I'm not suggesting otherwise. Nor do I suggest we restrict it to chi sau. My goal is to understand more about HFY, and Kiu Sao in particular (because as you know, most other Wing Chun schools don't have this distinction). If we were to work out, and you keep me at kiu sau range that's fine with me. If we eventually end up in chi sau range, that's fine with me too.

"2. Kiu Sau occurs from the blind side while Chi Sau occurs directly facing. Opponents wouldn't be facing eachother correctly. "

That's one of the things I want to get a feel for. In my school, as you know, we don't make the distinction between kiu sau and chi sau. We attempt to face and match regardless of range. I'm curious as to how our different approaches play into one another.

"3. Kiu Sau makes contact at the forearms, Chi Sau makes contact at the wrist. Rolling hands would require one opponent doing their technique wrong."

Hmmm, perhaps I should have been clearer. I don't expect you to do rolling hands any more than you expect me to do kiu sau. I was thinking more of a free-form format.

"So now do you see why I made my earlier suggestions??? I would suggest that instead of going to different WC schools, and playing Chi Sau that you go to a Judo school and see how effective your Chi Sau is against one of there students when he rushes you. That will probably give you the best understanding as to why we have Kiu Sau in our system."

Actually, I try to do that as much as I can. When I work out with people from other styles, naturally I don't expect them to roll with me. We apply what we learned to the best of our ability in any situation. If we start from non contact, that's fine. If we start from contact, that's fine too. It's a matter of seeing what's out there and seeing how it relates to my own training. For instance, working out with some TKD guys taught me that I needed to learn how to deal with hook shots more effectively and that I needed to close the gap to counter their kicks. Working out with Taiji people I learned the dangers or overcommitting yourself and the effectiveness of listening and matching. Working with other Wing Chun people I learned how their respective energies, footwork, hand techniques, etc. affect my own Wing Chun. Practically everyone I've met and touch hands with agree that the meeting was mutually beneficial. That's really all I'm after. Self improvement.

"On a final note, if you are really just after seeing what our student's energy is like, then I can tell you, that we try to cultivate BOTH the hard and soft energies of Yin and Yang. "

But the devil's in the details. I can tell you we do the same thing but obviously how we use our energies will be different. Also, such detail isn't easily communicated through words (as Chango very correctly pointed out once upon a time).

"On a personal note, if you are just trying to touch my hand... all I can say is that apart from coming to a seminar, or coming up to the mission SF and trying to mug me, that I have no interest in playing chi Sau."

That's very unfortunate to hear. I had hoped to have a mutually beneficial and friendly exchange of information. I very much enjoyed the exchange of forms and other information when I last visited. I especially enjoyed the conversation with you and William afterwards. As Gee sifu astutely pointed out, it's not about just comparing, it's a cultural exchange of information. I was just hoping to extend that spirit a bit further with a second meeting.

But thanks for your time and advice Alex. I will look into the HFY seminar schedule and hopefully see you and your sihengdais in the future. If you should ever reconsider, or if any of your sihengdais are interested in an exchange of information, please feel free to contact me via email at any time.

Regards,
Alan

reneritchie

09-11-2003, 12:11 PM

Hey William,

Good point on it potentially being a different kind of kick. I think a side-kick might turn the foot a little differently, but it could also be a hook kick or many others things.

In a way, though, I think this is mistaking the forest for a tree. It's a picture for a cover for a book, symbolic and representational to be sure, but doesn't have to be any more or less.

Personally, I'm just relieved they didn't stick Bruce Lee on the cover...

duende

09-11-2003, 12:49 PM

Alan,

My tone may seem hard, but actually I am only trying to be as clear and as direct as possible.

Your persistence in trying to have more of a "mutually beneficial and friendly exchange of information" strikes me as rather odd at this point. Given the amount of friendly information my Sifu, I and others from my school have already conveyed to you.

I can not help but come to the conclusion that either you are tragically naive or not being as clear and honest as you represent yourself. Are you completely unaware of recent political climates that transpired between your school, Sifu Chris Chan's school, and HFY???

My personal goal IS to stay away from all such politics. Unfortunately in today's Kung Fu community, that means trusting no one, and keeping things on a professional level.

I hope I have been sucessful in being respectful to all the different WC schools represented here. I hope my desire to be as direct as possible to you did not come at the cost of disrespecting you or your school, as that was not my intention.

I look forward to seeing you at the next public seminar.

Alex

reneritchie

09-11-2003, 01:06 PM

Fok Bo-Chuen learned from both Wong Wah-Bo and Dai Fa Min Kam, much as Leung Jan learned from both WWB and Leung Yee-Tai. There are two mutually contradictory stories about this, of course. In one, Wong Wah-Bo left Foshan at some point and so his students continued with other Red Junk performers. In the other, his students began with other performers and were eventually introduced to Wong.

Both Wong Wah-Bo and Dai Fa Min Kam are listed as Fok Bo-Chuen's teacher in old articles from China (I think Yuen Jo-Tong did a pretty comprehensive one), and on family trees I've seen from students of Sum Nung. Likewise, Sum was very clear about it when I had a chance to discuss it with him in '99.

It does make sense, unless Dai Fa Min Kam knew WiCK as well as WeCK, as Wong Wah-Bo apparently did. But that far back, who really knows?

reneritchie

09-11-2003, 01:10 PM

Alan,

Don't mean to butt in, but in my experience, stuff like this often has a higher success rate when approached privately rather than via public forum.

Zhuge Liang

09-11-2003, 01:13 PM

Hi Alex,

My tone may seem hard, but actually I am only trying to be as clear and as direct as possible.

I understand. Thanks for making it clear.

Your persistence in trying to have more of a "mutually beneficial and friendly exchange of information" strikes me as rather odd at this point. Given the amount of friendly information my Sifu, I and others from my school have already conveyed to you.

As long as people are willing to share, I will be willing to learn. This of course is not just one sided. I would be more than willing to share if people are intersted as well. And I want you to know that I am very grateful for what Gee sifu has shared already.

I can not help but come to the conclusion that either you are tragically naive...

=) I've been accused of worse...

or not being as clear and honest as you represent yourself. Are you completely unaware of recent political climates that transpired between your school, Sifu Chris Chan's school, and HFY???...

Actually, that's part of the reason I'm trying to reach out. I refuse to believe that a few pot-clanging rabble-rousers can damage our community to the point that open communication is impossible. And even if that were the case, I refuse to believe burned bridges can't be rebuilt. Even then, whatever relations, real or imagined, good or ill, between organizations don't neccessarily have to carry over to the relations between individual people. Everyone I met and spoke with at the HFY Kwoon were very open, friendly, and willing to chat. I saw no reason that it would be any different outside of the kwoon.

My personal goal IS to stay away from all such politics.

Ditto

Unfortunately in today's Kung Fu community, that means trusting no one, and keeping things on a professional level.

That's unfortunate, but I don't blame you. Hopefully in the future you will be convinced that there are trustworthy people from our camp.

I hope I have been sucessful in being respectful to all the different WC schools represented here. I hope my desire to be as direct as possible to you did not come at the cost of disrespecting you or your school, as that was not my intention.

No disrespect was taken, I assure you. I appreciate that you're trying to be clear.

Regards,
Alan

method man

09-11-2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by duende
Kiu Sau was designed for anti-grappling and not for what you seem to think.

So now do you see why I made my earlier suggestions??? I would suggest that instead of going to different WC schools, and playing Chi Sau that you go to a Judo school and see how effective your Chi Sau is against one of there students when he rushes you. That will probably give you the best understanding as to why we have Kiu Sau in our system.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

u need judo guy to show why u have Q sau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

maybe u no good but why nobody good enough in u school to show???????????????

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reneritchie

09-11-2003, 01:33 PM

I've actually found Chi Sao can be quite frustrating to a judoka, especially if you're not wearing anything with sleeves. Gi grip is an art unto itself.

Maybe not Nick Gill or Kosei Inoue (who saddly just trounced Gill at the Worlds :( ) class judoka, but against similar relative skill, at least in my experience.

Chango

09-11-2003, 02:31 PM

mustafa,

quote:That does not quite make sense seeing how Weng Chun is so different,

--I find that this conculsion may be premature. I will only say it all depends on what Wing chun we are referring too.

Method man,

quote: u need judo guy to show why u have Q sau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

maybe u no good but why nobody good enough in u school to show???????????????

--- i think you missed the point here. No not just a judo guy but a person trained in grappling and throwing. I hope this helps you understand what was being said about kiu sau.

Chango (SGS)

yuanfen

09-11-2003, 02:46 PM

I think Alan was really interested in comparing and contrasting --- consistent with the fairly level headed tone of his posts.

Re: Alex's post- I accept hs statement that what he does is quite different from what is commonly called wing chun.
I dont care to critique his statements about his art but some comments on regular wing chun is in order- atleast that of the Ip man umbrella.

Chi sao is chi sao- an unique timing devlopment curriculum.
Its implications and applications are far more wide ranging than
"wrist contact" distance. Kiu, forearm. bridge-is/are important in
old fashioned wing chun. Its not an accident that the second form is called chum kiu. There are many kiu training/timing activities in
regular wing chun.

Real fights are unpredictable events-they dont always follow
set sequential distances.

duende

09-11-2003, 02:54 PM

Great... so I wonder off topic trying to be helpful, and I get some ignorant virtual BJJ JKD artist dissing me in some irratating excuse for the English language. I think we should change your name to LACK OF METHOD MAN as it appears any kind of systems concept is beyond you.

I'm not going to play your game. The fact of the matter is that Kiu Sau keeps grapplers at a range in which they are less of a threat.

Rene,

I am aware of the habitual gee grabbing crutch that Judo wrestlers depend on. The point of Kiu Sau as I understand it, is that it is safer to not let them get that dangerously close to begin with. Maybe your Chi Sau has similar functions built-in, and it sounds like it works for you.

The beauty in HFY as I see it is that every technique is broken down in the system so that there is no room for self-interpretation and/or concepts getting left out. The creaters of HFY decided that it was a good idea to make a distinction between the two (Kiu Sau and Chi Sau). I just happen to agree with them. Be aware that I say this as having studied some Yip Man too.

Alex

09-11-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
I refuse to believe that a few pot-clanging rabble-rousers can damage our community to the point that open communication is impossible. And even if that were the case, I refuse to believe burned bridges can't be rebuilt. Even then, whatever relations, real or imagined, good or ill, between organizations don't necessarily have to carry over to the relations between individual people.

Consummately stated. :cool:

This has qualified for and been duly entered in my "favorite quotes and contemplations" file.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just returned from an afternoon ethics lecture, from which I had coincidentally jotted down the following:

"Everyone ought to bear patiently the results of his own conduct." - William Shakespeare

Sometimes to our gain, sometimes at our loss, we often enough bear the results of others' conduct; and likewise, they bear ours.

Pensively,
- Kathy Jo

Chango

09-11-2003, 04:04 PM

Alex,
I find that your last post strikes very good point!

Quote:The beauty in HFY as I see it is that every technique is broken down in the system so that there is no room for self-interpretation and/or concepts getting left out. The creaters of HFY decided that it was a good idea to make a distinction between the two (Kiu Sau and Chi Sau). I just happen to agree with them.

--I find that once one realizes these distictions it would not be logical to disagree.

Quote: Be aware that I say this as having studied some Yip Man too.

---I find this to be a golden statement. conclusions drawn from real experience! I find that to be priceless. it's pleasure to read your post.

Chango (SGS)

method man

09-11-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Chango

--- i think you missed the point here. No not just a judo guy but a person trained in grappling and throwing. I hope this helps you understand what was being said about kiu sau.

yes yes sure i understand now u telling me we suppose believe Q sau very good at stop grapple throw but nobody at SF can grappl throw good enough to explain why u need sombody else other thn SF student explain show Q sau.

method man

09-11-2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by duende
Great... so I wonder off topic trying to be helpful, and I get some ignorant virtual BJJ JKD artist dissing me in some irratating excuse for the English language. I think we should change your name to LACK OF METHOD MAN as it appears any kind of systems concept is beyond you.

I'm not going to play your game. The fact of the matter is that Kiu Sau keeps grapplers at a range in which they are less of a threat.

hahahahah

i really scare

u too virtual wc grandmastr call duende so go ahed insult me i don mind

u say Q sau work but refuse show other guy askng u show touch hand send to judo person instead of classmate who playing game now?????????

REAL FACT is u claim it work but no proof.... but u brothers say proof in 20 dollar book i say proof in profesonal ring 60000us dollar they pay u if prove!!!!!!!!!!!

2 bad no amazng Randi exist for martial noncense

taltos

09-11-2003, 04:41 PM

Let me preface this by saying that I am only trying to clear up some confusion here, and I am in no way implying or stating anything in particular about anyone in particular.

I believe the original quote was...

Originally posted by duende
I would suggest that instead of going to different WC schools, and playing Chi Sau that you go to a Judo school and see how effective your Chi Sau is against one of there students when he rushes you. That will probably give you the best understanding as to why we have Kiu Sau in our system.

What I took from this quote was that Kiuh Sau is extremely effective in dealing with grapplers, and that HFY makes a specific distinction between Chi Sau (at the wrist) and Kiuh Sau (at the forearm). And the best way to see if you can handle a grappler is to try to handle a grappler. I wouldn't test out my ability to defend against long range flying kicks by sparring/practicing with a BJJ guy, nor would I try to test my ability to keep from being thrown to the ground by sparring/practicing with someone who also does his darnedest to stay up on his feet.

I don't think anyone here (duende, Chango Sifu, etc.) was implying that you couldn't learn about Kiuh Sau by playing Kiuh Sau... it seems to me they were saying that if you were to try your skills at keeping a grappler at a safe distance, you would potentially see why HFY makes a distinction between close-up fighting and grappling and has a specific training tool devsied for just such an opponent/attack/range. And the best way to see is to try it against someone who "does it for a living," so to speak.

But I am, after all, only human, and I most certainly could be wrong.

I'm really enjoying the discussion when it sticks to the concepts and ideas, and I'm hopeful that the statements that do nothing but ruffle feathers and hide thinly-veiled insults and attacks can fade away.

Thanks to everyone who shares in the spirit of sharing. I've learned quite a bit.

-Levi

duende

09-11-2003, 04:52 PM

Method Man,

I guess your reading skills are as poor as your writing.

I am more than willing to demonstrate HFY Kiu Sau to anyone with sincere interest. It's really not difficult to find my kwoon or when the next Kiu Sau seminar is. I just do not care to do any private instruction, and I don't know how I could make my reasons more clear.

Alan understands this and has graciously made steps to build a bridge between our two separate paths of learning.

This is really important, because frankly, the virtual bickering that I've witness take place on this forum is embarassing. Not to mention an utter waste of time taken away from training.

So the only way your going to be of any real concern to me, is if you come and invade my space and time. Otherwise, I'd prefer a constructive sharing of knowledge here, and I think most others here would agree.

09-11-2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by duende
This is really important, because frankly, the virtual bickering that I've witness take place on this forum is embarassing. Not to mention an utter waste of time taken away from training.

Amen to that.

Thanks too for the insights lent in your posts. From this readers' POV, your directness without emotionalism has also been refreshing.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Rolling_Hand

09-11-2003, 06:27 PM

<<So the only way your going to be of any real concern to me, is if you come and invade my space and time. Otherwise, I'd prefer a constructive sharing of knowledge here, and I think most others here would agree.>>Alex

Hi Alex,

Well said...Here is a man who knows how to console himself.

Many years ago, I had a chance to meet your Sifu and Chris Chan at the party. Please say hello to both of them for me.

Rdgs

Roger

reneritchie

09-11-2003, 07:54 PM

Hi Alex,

Grip fighting is a whole system unto itself for a good Judoka (whole books and terms of study are dedicated just to that), and if they get their hands on cloth, they can do some interesting things. I agree with you about not letting them get a grip. The way I learned, we distinguish between San Sao, which is free hands or no pre-existing contact, Dap Kiu, which are methods of joining the bridges, and Chi Sao, which are methods for dealing with pre-existing contact. There are also methods for breaking contact in certain specific situations, but that's another thread.

We also seem to have a slightly different approach in that we feel in this wide, wonderous, world, there will always be something surprising (a la Murphy's Law), and so we use an overall strategy and concepts within that which means that even if (stuff) happens, our reflexes have been programmed on structurally sound positions to assume, and our brain has gotten used to returning to the overal strategy, so we never reall get 'lost'. I refer to this as a type of 'fuzzy logic'. It seems to work in the real world where sensitivity to initial conditions causes wide variance in results even from similar initiations -- sort of like a cruise missle making adjustments along the way, rather than being hard-wired from the outset and missing because some butterfly flapped its wings in Beijing two days ago.

One thing I've found, however, is that different people think differently and find different methods better suited to them. Perhaps this is why we have different WCK, the same way we have different graphics programs. I always liked the Imagine 3D and Corel suite, and never much cared for Lightwave 3D or Adobe's Photoshop/Illustrator. The former is much more inuitive for me than the latter. Likewise, I can see different approaches to WCK being more intuitive for different students at different times.

Nice chatting with you, (and I've never studied Yip Man WCK).

reneritchie

09-11-2003, 07:59 PM

Method Man,

San Francisco has some great grapplers. I believe Ralph Gracie has several schools there, and amoung his students are several members of an elite collegiate Judo team, including standout David Camarilo (sp?). I have heard of folks visiting both the judo and BJJ training, so no one in SF should ever be at a lack for hard core grapplers to test their theories out on.

duende

09-12-2003, 12:37 AM

Rolling Hand.....

Wow, you got to meet them back in the old days huh???

I imagine that they were probably up to something, as they are both characters... especially back then!!! I will definitely say hello for you to my Sifu. Not many people know that Sifu Gee and his family and Sifu Chan are all old friends and go way back.

I personally have never had the opurtunity to really meet Sifu Chan. I hope one day that will change, and I will be as fortunate as you.

Anyways thanks for your kind responses.

Chango, Taltos, Cang Long, and of course William...

Thanks so much for helping clarify my posts when they needed it!

Savi

09-12-2003, 01:00 AM

Hi everyone! Been offline for a few days, so I thought I might share in the discussion as well. I have seen the process the authors went through to develop this first historical book soley on HFY. It really takes an objective look on combat, as well as providing information on the HFY history as some might be eager to read up on, no doubt! I have witnessed the hundreds of hours spent into producing this book (on the authors' end) and truly hope everyone enjoys it. Just some minor comments to break up the chapters:

Originally posted by passing_through
Chapter 1: Northern and Southern Shaolin Development
Chapter 2: Genesis of Shaolin Wing Chun and Hung Fa Yi History Beyond the Southern Shaolin Temple History of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun... there is a lot of material covered here! pictures and photos are included.

Originally posted by passing_through
Chapter 3: Philosophy and Etiquette of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun
Chapter 4: The Core of Hung Fa Yi Science: Space, Time and Energy
Chapter 5: The Wing Chun Formula The philosophy and science within HFYWCK and how they are bound to each other in harmony. This is one of my favorite sections. Here as well, I have never seen so much detail in any martial arts book. Cool illustrations I might add. ;)

Originally posted by passing_through
Chapter 6: Siu Nim Tau Level Science and Skill Development
Chapter 7: Chum Kiu Level Knowledge and Skill Development
Chapter 8: Biu Ji Level Knowledge and Skill Development
Chapter 9: Hung Fa Yi Wooden Dummy and Weapons
Combat strategies, tactics and applications. Excellent photo work and technical detail in every chapter. All I have to say is AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME!!! From what I have already learned in HFY, this book just adds fuel to the desire! When you guys get your copy, I hope it will shed much more light into the interest you may have in HFY as well as combat in general.

duende

09-12-2003, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hi Alex,

Grip fighting is a whole system unto itself for a good Judoka (whole books and terms of study are dedicated just to that), and if they get their hands on cloth, they can do some interesting things. I agree with you about not letting them get a grip. The way I learned, we distinguish between San Sao, which is free hands or no pre-existing contact, Dap Kiu, which are methods of joining the bridges, and Chi Sao, which are methods for dealing with pre-existing contact. There are also methods for breaking contact in certain specific situations, but that's another thread.

We also seem to have a slightly different approach in that we feel in this wide, wonderous, world, there will always be something surprising (a la Murphy's Law), and so we use an overall strategy and concepts within that which means that even if (stuff) happens, our reflexes have been programmed on structurally sound positions to assume, and our brain has gotten used to returning to the overal strategy, so we never reall get 'lost'. I refer to this as a type of 'fuzzy logic'. It seems to work in the real world where sensitivity to initial conditions causes wide variance in results even from similar initiations -- sort of like a cruise missle making adjustments along the way, rather than being hard-wired from the outset and missing because some butterfly flapped its wings in Beijing two days ago.

One thing I've found, however, is that different people think differently and find different methods better suited to them. Perhaps this is why we have different WCK, the same way we have different graphics programs. I always liked the Imagine 3D and Corel suite, and never much cared for Lightwave 3D or Adobe's Photoshop/Illustrator. The former is much more inuitive for me than the latter. Likewise, I can see different approaches to WCK being more intuitive for different students at different times.

Nice chatting with you, (and I've never studied Yip Man WCK).

Rene,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that your Dap Kiu is intended for use in a similar timeframe as our Kiu Sau. Be careful or you might get into the same amount of grief I did.

I can most definitely relate to your comment... "our reflexes have been programmed on structurally sound positions to assume, and our brain has gotten used to returning to the overal strategy, so we never reall get 'lost'. I refer to this as a type of 'fuzzy logic'." Sounds like your system puts alot of stock into stucture as well. Not very fuzzy to me....

And I'll take Pagemaker over Quark, and Sound Designer over Peak any day!

Alex

Savi

09-12-2003, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
I think that hands "blocking" an Oyama kick most likely means hospitalization.... Do you have a more efficient alternative to addressing a kick to the face if not to use the hands? Hmmm.... be practical...

Any hand blocking a kick could result in hospitalization. Especially one with destructive power behind it. Any type of blocking at all will incur injury - major or minor. It's a good thing that Master Gee isn't using a block in the picture anyway. It is a redirection, which is different in philosophy and tactics as opposed to blocking. Could I be wrong? Only a HFY student could answer that one!

As far as I know in HFYWCK there is no blocking at all. Yin and Yang theory does not allow it. To do otherwise is contradictory to the theory. The Fut Sau that is under the leg on the cover might be expressing upward (lifting) energy which in turn would influence the sideways energy and structure of the supposed roundhouse kick to that upward direction. His Wu Sau is there to help guide the foot to a desireable position. Because of the meeting of energies on two different planes in space (vertical influencing the horizontal), it is a redirection (alteration) rather than a block (stopping force with force).

Consider the effect of someone raising your leg higher than you intended. What do you think will happen to your root? Your center of gravity? What have you risked in such an action? I would not want to be in the kicker's shoes I'll tell you that much!

Originally posted by yuanfen
but then a demo is just a demo and a cover just a cover. Certainly a cover is just a cover. The universe is also deliciouly sour... not! From your POV, we might as well have put a jar of peanut butter on the cover since a cover is just a cover. If you ever read the new HFY book, your attitude might hopefully change for the better.

Roger, you have an astuteness to detail. I like your post earlier regarding the cover... nice job!

KPM

09-12-2003, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by Savi
Combat strategies, tactics and applications. Excellent photo work and technical detail in every chapter. All I have to say is AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME!!! From what I have already learned in HFY, this book just adds fuel to the desire! When you guys get your copy, I hope it will shed much more light into the interest you may have in HFY as well as combat in general. [/B]

Hi Savi!

Does the book actually show the full sequence of all the forms? If so, it would be a "must have", even for those who will never actually study HFY!

Keith

yuanfen

09-12-2003, 06:56 AM

Savi asks of yuanfen:

Do you have a more efficient alternative to addressing a kick to the face if not to use the hands? Hmmm.... be practical...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

YES- several without hands several(different from pic) with hands
...prefer former for reasons given. Have done it for real.

Not unique to me. Several ole fashioned wing chun folks(sihings and some brothers/sisters) I know can do it.

We have a saying...I dont punch you in the foot- why do you want to kick me in the head? Of course doesnt apply to drunks and the weak-

yuanfen

09-12-2003, 07:23 AM

Savi

09-12-2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Savi asks of yuanfen:

Do you have a more efficient alternative to addressing a kick to the face if not to use the hands? Hmmm.... be practical...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

YES- several without hands several(different from pic) with hands
...prefer former for reasons given. Have done it for real.

Not unique to me. Several ole fashioned wing chun folks(sihings and some brothers/sisters) I know can do it.

We have a saying...I dont punch you in the foot- why do you want to kick me in the head? Of course doesnt apply to drunks and the weak- against the latter many more things are relevant. Can't say much about your post because there wasn't too much that you said. I guess it is because my question was pretty much a yes or no question in the first place. Oh well.

Objective look:
In the HFY system, any attack from the waist up is dealt with by the hands. Any attack from the waist down is dealt with by the legs. This is what I implied by efficient and practical; it allows the practitioner to maintain their C/L vertical alignment (upright posture) at all times without compromising their own harmony. Here are my counterpoints:

Point 1.
If you were to dodge the kick at the distance as in the photo, that would require you to break the centerline alignment (as in leaning), which also requires the use of more energy as well as more space. This would not be efficient.

Point 2.
You haven't learned HFY, so how do you know if the application works or not? All you have is a photo to go by. Further more, how can you say there are more efficient and practical applications to counter the kick without experiencing the illustrated technique? Also, you are assuming you know exactly what the kick is in the photo and how it got there by stating everything you have stated...

Point 3.
"Not unique to me. Several ole fashioned wing chun folks(sihings and some brothers/sisters) I know can do it." -Joy

So this is not unique to you, yet you have never trained HFY? So then, all things you have yet to experience is also not unique to you. Hmmm. Could you explain further please? Let me add this:

The HFY structure will be unique to anyone who has not studied it BECAUSE a) it is a new experience, and b) from a spatial perspective all of HFY structure is governed by a formula which describes a symmetrical division of three dimensional space from left to right, as well as high to low and front to back in relation to the human body. This formula helps us configure the body into positions which harmonize the relationship of Time (moment), Space (amount of), and Energy (proper connection of) for what is appropriate for the dimensions of the human form. That balance illustrates the definition of what I mean as practical.

What is meant by efficient takes into account what is practical, but also leaves little or no practical solution (counter) to the opponent. This is to say that your application has taken away any further what if scenarios.

Point 4.
"We have a saying...I dont punch you in the foot- why do you want to kick me in the head? Of course doesnt apply to drunks and the weak- against the latter many more things are relevant. " - Joy

Is this to say that only the weak and the drunk will ever throw a kick to the upper region of your body? Although I comprehend what you are saying, it does not seem to address the reality that anyone could deliver a leg attack to the head/torso regardless, nor does it address what you should do in said event. Could you elaborate more please.

Savi

09-12-2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by KPM
Hi Savi!

Does the book actually show the full sequence of all the forms? If so, it would be a "must have", even for those who will never actually study HFY!

Keith Hi Keith,
Thanks for asking! Yes there are photos of the forms in HFY, so it is definitely worth it if that is also what you are looking for.

There are photos of many combat applications (like Kiu Sau), as well as sections of Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Ji, the wooden dummy and the weapons.

This though, IMO does not constitute the meat of the book. There is so much more to it, but there is definitely a wealth of photos to analyze and see!

Savi

09-12-2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Sandman2[Wing Chun]
Good to see that this book is finally ready, congratulations to everyone who worked towards getting the info out there. Hopefully it will prove to be informative. No doubt Sandman, you won't be disappointed. I think it is WAY underpriced, but that's my opinion.

Savi

09-12-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Chi sao is chi sao- an unique timing devlopment curriculum.
Its implications and applications are far more wide ranging than
"wrist contact" distance. Kiu, forearm. bridge-is/are important in
old fashioned wing chun. Its not an accident that the second form is called chum kiu. There are many kiu training/timing activities in
regular wing chun.

Real fights are unpredictable events-they dont always follow
set sequential distances. Joy, can't argue against something you haven't learned yet. But yes you are correct in stating that real fights are unpredictable events. That doesn't mean that you should not train every range of combat.

passing_through

09-12-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by MustafaUcozler
[B]By the way, Andreas Hoffman has a book out,too. It supposedly shows all the forms of Weng Chun.

The VTM has 3 copies of this book available for $60 each. They are not listed in the gift shop but you can order them directly by contacting host@vtmuseum.org

Here's a picture of the book: http://www.vtmuseum.org/images/shop/chi_sim_book01.jpg

Mastering Kung Fu should be available towards the end of the month.

yuanfen

09-12-2003, 11:58 AM

Savi sez:
Joy, can't argue against something you haven't learned yet. But yes you are correct in stating that real fights are unpredictable events. That doesn't mean that you should not train every range of combat.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You asked a question- I gave you an answer.
As to who has learned what and whther it is relevant- a matter of opinion and we are likely to differ. As to ranges of combat-I am not locked into dogmas.

Savi

09-12-2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Savi sez:
Joy, can't argue against something you haven't learned yet. But yes you are correct in stating that real fights are unpredictable events. That doesn't mean that you should not train every range of combat.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You asked a question- I gave you an answer.
As to who has learned what and whther it is relevant- a matter of opinion and we are likely to differ. As to ranges of combat-I am not locked into dogmas. 1. I'm not arguing the point, yes you did give me an answer. One that left much to be desired, but yes you gave me an answer to my question...

2. A matter of opinion? How so? Is this also to say that you are stating you do KNOW the application Grandmaster Gee is performing on the cover? Where and how did you get this information then, because it is unique to HFY. Or would that just be an opinion? If so, Why?

3. Ranges of Combat = dogma? Forgive my ignorance, could you explain this further please?

yuanfen

09-12-2003, 01:35 PM

Cooments on Savi's post in brackets::

1. I'm not arguing the point, yes you did give me an answer. One that left much to be desired, but yes you gave me an answer to my question...

((its ok if I dont meet your view of what is left to be desired))

2. A matter of opinion? How so?

Is this also to say that you are stating you do KNOW the application Grandmaster Gee is performing on the cover?

((I said nothing of the sort. I just agreed with the theme of the dangers of blocking or defelectinga pwerful kick except witha cooperative partner or a demo or a cover))

Where and how did you get this information then, because it is unique to HFY.

((What information - see above> Far be it from me to know the immer secrets of HFY- its nota road that I have taken or care to take. I have zero problem with those who chose your road. I respect freedom of choice))

Or would that just be an opinion? If so, Why?

((There are very few ideas that dont have an element of opinion-
but not all opinions are coequal---informed opinion, confirmed opinion, educated opinion retc... Big bang, string theory, field theory---full of opinions. Science hasa very tentative charcter-
pre and post quantum physics etc.))

3. Ranges of Combat = dogma? Forgive my ignorance, could you explain this further please?

(Ranges of combat is a construct- I am wary of mechanical distinctions of ranges. A la Sun Tzu- near and far can vary with circumstances. No suchthing as fixed chi sao distance- there are all sorts of dynamics involved. Chi sao is a continuum of events))

PS Sorry for any typos - I will be late for a lesson (unrelated to wc))

method man

09-12-2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Method Man,

San Francisco has some great grapplers. I believe Ralph Gracie has several schools there, and amoung his students are several members of an elite collegiate Judo team, including standout David Camarilo (sp?). I have heard of folks visiting both the judo and BJJ training, so no one in SF should ever be at a lack for hard core grapplers to test their theories out on.

sure sure thanx but u no need explan who is my good frined COUSIN

my argu very simple U CANNOT EXPLAN OR SHOW THEN U DONNOT KNOW maybe they beginner fine then why cannot find classmate to show????????? if student do say Qsau the best but cannot show never test then just like stupid kid my mommy say this my daddy beat u daddy........ maybe teacher very good can show u but if teach so long but student still telling people talk to judo guy to show Qsau then somthng smell........

what work against grappl throw most time very very simple........ is work play work play test test test and do this agan agan agan untill u so sick u cannnot look at school then take brake then start repeet agan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

of course do this right then u can proof Qsau plus RSTsau plus ABChisau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! can make lotta idea sound good even can explan why capuera still pretend wear leg iron and give proove why this working too ......... u pretty good doin this to beginar very easy ...... u better then doin this to pretty good person also very easy!!!!!!!!!!!! no majic no smoke no unique supersecret my school best got all u miss importnat hand this way stand that way bullchip market noncense

man in blue

09-12-2003, 09:10 PM

Do you have a more efficient alternative to addressing a kick to the face if not to use the hands? Hmmm.... be practical... YES- several without hands several(different from pic) with hands

I think I'm missing something . . . because I do not understand.

I'm aware of the fact that there are many ways to address (high) kicks. But if a kick is in the stage as shown on the cover picture, how can you address it by NOT using your arms/hands?

Yuanfen, seriously I don't understand . . . please explain.

tia

Man in Blue

canglong

09-13-2003, 12:25 AM

yuanfen sez
YES- several without hands several(different from pic) with hands...prefer former for reasons given. Have done it for real.
yuanfen sez
((I said nothing of the sort. I just agreed with the theme of the dangers of blocking or defelectinga pwerful kick except witha cooperative partner or a demo or a cover)) Now here aren't you doing a hendrik and arguing with yourself or are you the only person that knows how to redirect a high kick with your hands. Do the tecniques you refer to have a name or are they not wing chun.
Not unique to me. Several ole fashioned wing chun folks(sihings and some brothers/sisters) I know can do it. Why do you state this as if the tecnique in question works for "some" old school folk but not all practitioners.

For the record Bruce Lee is credited with suggesting that it would be just as much a waste of energy to reach down and punch at the foot as it would be to reach up and kick at the head.

Man in blue,
Excellent point I too am anxious to hear the answer.

yuanfen, John Weiland let me post this again for you to not just read but understand.
masterfully stated by Rolling_Hand
Every single thing is just the one mind. This picture represents the perfect harmony of yin and yang in combat. The art of WCK lives not upon close range alone, but primarily by the skill of intercepting. Others think you're too permissive. Yet victory lies in making an opponent believe he's winning. Thumbs up!

anerlich

09-13-2003, 12:27 AM

Amazing how one photograph can lead to such epic amounts of bickering. That's WC for you. :mad:

I look forward to independent revoews, neither hagiography nor hatchet job, once it is in print.

Savi

09-13-2003, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by anerlich
Amazing how one photograph can lead to such epic amounts of bickering. That's WC for you. :mad: There are many people in this world who take a mile for every inch they think they have. Controversy is stirred by the controversial, and those without complete knowledge of things. Regardless it's a part of reality, and we must count on the few who are strong and wise enough to help guide those who are less informed than others.

From your statement, perhaps I am not reading things as they apparently are. Anerlich, I do believe this thread has been quite decent in comparison to previous threads involving the same group of people, plus or minus a few new and old users.

Perhaps a handful of "counter-perspective" posts is what you would refer to as 'epic amounts of bickering'. Your post then would fit in that category now wouldn't it? But that would be by your own perspective anyways. I just see it as curiosity. That's all.

Do you have any opinions about the book, regarding what you know of it so far? Hopefully you will actually get a copy for yourself rather than look for the independant reviews?

KPM

09-13-2003, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by Savi
Hi Keith,
Thanks for asking! Yes there are photos of the forms in HFY, so it is definitely worth it if that is also what you are looking for.

There are photos of many combat applications (like Kiu Sau), as well as sections of Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Ji, the wooden dummy and the weapons.

This though, IMO does not constitute the meat of the book. There is so much more to it, but there is definitely a wealth of photos to analyze and see!

Sounds good! I just went to the VTM site and put my copy on "pre-order." Thanks Savi!

Keith

duende

09-13-2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by method man

my argu very simple U CANNOT EXPLAN OR SHOW THEN U DONNOT KNOW

I can show. I just feel that unless it's an actual real fight that I'd prefer to do it PUBLICLY. Just so nothing that transpired can be distorted or manipulated later in order to tarnish my name or the name of my kwoon. Something that seems to be well within your nature. It's very easy to re-arrange the meanings of posts when behind a PC. With witnesses around, suddenly everything becomes alot less prone to your kind of bull****.

Savi

09-13-2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by duende to method man
I can show. I just feel that unless it's an actual real fight that I'd prefer to do it PUBLICLY. Just so nothing that transpired can be distorted or manipulated later in order to tarnish my name or the name of my kwoon. Something that seems to be well within your nature. It's very easy to re-arrange the meanings of posts when behind a PC. With witnesses around, suddenly everything becomes alot less prone to your kind of bull****. Duende,
You most certainly have a true sense of identity and self-worth as can be seen by your responses. Method Man seems to be filling in the shoes of a former character who liked to put his head on other photos. It seems very difficult for him to actually read what it is we state in our posts, because I have not really seen him having trouble with other users on the forum. I guess it's good for a laugh.

Glad to see you on the forum.

canglong

09-13-2003, 02:00 PM

Sounds good! I just went to the VTM site and put my copy on "pre-order." Thanks Savi!
Enjoy Kieth I am sure you will enjoy more than just the pics it is an excellent read, I guess the main thing is whether you agree or disagree with the premise it is encouraging to know that you are open minded enough to at least read the book.

09-13-2003, 02:11 PM

Will the book be made broadly available through booksellers (e.g., Amazon, Border, BN, etc.)?

Thanks,
- Kathy Jo

canglong

09-13-2003, 02:16 PM

Yes, Kathy Jo,
The book is available now for pre order at Amazon.

anerlich

09-13-2003, 05:15 PM

Do you have any opinions about the book, regarding what you know of it so far? Hopefully you will actually get a copy for yourself rather than look for the independant reviews?

All I've seen so far is the picture, which is a nice picture. How could I have any other opinions about a book not yet available to the public?

If the independent reviews are positive, then I may well buy the book. I see no reason so far to place an order based only on faith and the gushing recommendations of the converted.

I have not knocked the book. I furvently hope it lives up to the advertising. There's plenty of precedents for caution in considering such purchases, and that's the line I'm taking.

You aren't a moderator, so get the f*** off your **** pedestal.

Savi

09-13-2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by kj
Will the book be made broadly available through booksellers (e.g., Amazon, Border, BN, etc.)?

Thanks,
- Kathy Jo KJ,
The book will be advertised in several major magazines as well as many major book stores, such as the ones you have mentioned! It will pretty much be readily available, as well as in several different countries and in due time, several different languages too!

Savi

09-13-2003, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
You aren't a moderator, so get the f*** off your **** pedestal. HEY! I was trying to be cordial buddy, not throw my weight around. I'm not that type of person. If I made that kind of impression on you, it was not intended.

method man

09-17-2003, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by duende

I can show. I just feel that unless it's an actual real fight that I'd prefer to do it PUBLICLY. Just so nothing that transpired can be distorted or manipulated later in order to tarnish my name or the name of my kwoon. Something that seems to be well within your nature. It's very easy to re-arrange the meanings of posts when behind a PC. With witnesses around, suddenly everything becomes alot less prone to your kind of bull****.

sure sure i undestand u just wanna talk Qsau don wanna proof Qsau so u just talk behind computer too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so u can show big deal ths just more talk but still not proove u thinking words can proove ...... this noncense ...... u don wanna proof then okay but shoold not hav right for talk either!!!!!!!!!!!!

method man

09-17-2003, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Savi
Duende,
You most certainly have a true sense of identity and self-worth as can be seen by your responses. Method Man seems to be filling in the shoes of a former character who liked to put his head on other photos. It seems very difficult for him to actually read what it is we state in our posts, because I have not really seen him having trouble with other users on the forum. I guess it's good for a laugh.

Glad to see you on the forum.

u want to talk about cut past pictur then i thinking u need to very close look at 1 or 2 u teachers teachr early pic send in magazin!!!!!!!

i don have trouble with any 1 person my troubl wit bullchip noncense ...... if u talk like that then i gonna tell u bullchip smelll!!!!!!

how maney judo teachr say this or that good for defend strike but no show why send person to u so person learn why judo good?????????? my thinkng not too many!!!!!

Savi

09-17-2003, 02:22 PM

Method Man, your posts speak for themselves and you serve as a good laugh! Feel free to post again anytime soon, laughing is good for the soul.

saifa5k

09-17-2003, 07:06 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Weiland
[B]
I saw the photo. I didn't understand it or Alex's explanation of it. I doubt that I'm better than Mas Oyama, but of all the ways to defend against a high round house kick, what would you do? I wouldn't begin to hope you'd put your hand up in that fashion for me to break,

**Yep me too, best way to defend is pretend roundhouse baseball bat and not be there ;)! But then that not sell books ;).
Dave

desertwingchun2

09-17-2003, 11:13 PM

Hey Savi and Alex - No need to waist any time with this screen name meathod man. He talks about showing but isn't around to show anything. No one at the Machado Academy in Dallas knew what I was talking about when I asked about this clown.
By no means is meathod man's behavior a reflection of the Machado Academy.

When meathod man says .....

" ...... u don wanna proof then okay but shoold not hav right for talk either!!!!!!!!!!!!"

the response to him is simply ....

Follow your own advice. That's it. Meathod man is here only to "stir the pot". Pathetic to say the least.

-David

Train

09-17-2003, 11:31 PM

Wussup DWC2,

I told you it would be a waste of time dealing with Method!! Alot of the people here you can't really take seriously. Like Savi said, it's a good laugh. He's like the class clown no one take seriously :) But it's a good laugh so I hope he does keep posting.

hahahahah hehehehe There you go Method!! Your doing your job!!! :)

Train

09-18-2003, 12:13 AM

**Yep me too, best way to defend is pretend roundhouse baseball bat and not be there ! But then that not sell books . Dave

I have to disagree with you there. I have seen someone block a roundhouse kick b4 in a sparring match. IMO, it sepends on where you catch the kick. But anyways, in the picture, I can see how you can obsorb that kick in that way. It looks decieving becuase how that picture was taken. I think the camera was at a wierd angle.

1) Photographing for print media is not the same as application for combat. In photos, range is often increased and angles changed to that the movement isn't obscure or confusing (who's foot is that? What's the hand doing back there?) Rene

Totally agree.

yuanfen

09-18-2003, 04:07 AM

Percentage issue- hands against powerful kicks-is that the best alternative?

Powerful Oyama folks or Muay Thai folks would probably smile.

method man

09-18-2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
Hey Savi and Alex - No need to waist any time with this screen name meathod man. He talks about showing but isn't around to show anything. No one at the Machado Academy in Dallas knew what I was talking about when I asked about this clown.
By no means is meathod man's behavior a reflection of the Machado Academy.

When meathod man says .....

" ...... u don wanna proof then okay but shoold not hav right for talk either!!!!!!!!!!!!"

the response to him is simply ....

Follow your own advice. That's it. Meathod man is here only to "stir the pot". Pathetic to say the least.

-David

if tru or not tru same answer from school u expectng somethn els?????????

tell me u try Qsau there or they send u to judo guy?????????

method man

09-18-2003, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by Train
Wussup DWC2,

I told you it would be a waste of time dealing with Method!! Alot of the people here you can't really take seriously. Like Savi said, it's a good laugh. He's like the class clown no one take seriously :) But it's a good laugh so I hope he does keep posting.

hahahahah hehehehe There you go Method!! Your doing your job!!! :)

u want more laff look here http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/butterflyknives.php

is proove u military not stab enoug real person or u generals don undestnd knife!!!!! u smart enuogh to spot very bad beginnar mistak?????

no wonder moy tommy write in this forum u pretend miltary!!!!!!!!! i bet another sawbuck he know where all museim body burie!!!!!!!!!!!!

reneritchie

09-18-2003, 08:31 AM

I'm getting slower in my old age. I just realized this looks to be part of the same series as Mastering Jujitsu by Renzo Gracie and John Danher (sp?).

If so, I'm even more excited. MJ, while somewhat repetitive, is almost a 'new breed' in MA books. Danaher is as PhD. and really laid everything out in a logica flow. They present their thesis on how MA should be viewed, then provide real-world examples including old Japanese challenge fighters from Fuzen-ryu, tactics used in MMA by current fighters (Vanderlais, Couture, Rutten, Nog, etc.) to back up their thesis.

There's also a very interesting section on how MA's develop where the common stories (Shaolin, Buddhiharma) are shown to be less than good ways to look at things, while contextual needs, and series of outstanding individuals, and other theories are explored as more meritorious (again using real world examples).

Looks like Human Kenetics is setting the bar very high, and I look forward to more in their series!

Phenix

09-18-2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Percentage issue- hands against powerful kicks-is that the best alternative?

Powerful Oyama folks or Muay Thai folks would probably smile.

Joy,

some just live in fantasy island. or truely naive....

canglong

09-18-2003, 12:27 PM

Rene,
Thanks for starting this thread and clearing up a few things. That being those that see and understand and those that talk and talk and talk. Only a few people have viewed the cover and realized there may be more to WCK than they have been previously exposed to because they see something new and/or different in the picture and it makes them think and ask real questions. Then we have people like Joy and Phenix, adamantly disagreeing with what is being shown in the picture yet when man in blue asked Joy for a better application he since posted several times without so much as acknowledging man in blue. I think we all know why. I don't know many Grand masters of WCK but I have had the awesome priveledge of meeting with my Sitiagung Grand Master Gee on several occassions and if you question him about kung fu you better be prepapared with real questions because I can guarantee you will be receiving real answers. If you question his tecnique you better be prepared to test your structure because he will show you your weakness! This book will show you how small this forum really is when it reaches those martial artist that really do have empty tea cups and will not be prejudging the book before reading it as apposed to listening to the same old unyielding nay sayers here on this forum who themselves are naive enough to presume that they think they know what GM Gee is executing for the cover shot let alone understand it. Seeing Hung Fa Yi is no sustitute for understanding Hung Fa Yi only knowing Hung Fa Yi is knowing Hung Fa Yi anything less is saan kiu at best.

You think Human Kinetics is trying to raise the bar. I agree but remember to do that they require the services of capable people such as Grand Master Gee, Master Meng and Loewenhagen
Sifu. So I share your excitement about the release of the book but not because it is another in the Human kinetics series but because of the work put into by authors who care about the passing on of their amazing wealth of knowledge to people with the same passion for wck who are eager and willing to listen.

and because I don't think this can be overstated here it is again....
Every single thing is just the one mind. This picture represents the perfect harmony of yin and yang in combat. The art of WCK lives not upon close range alone, but primarily by the skill of intercepting. Others think you're too permissive. Yet victory lies in making an opponent believe he's winning. Thumbs up!--Rolling_Hand

CarlDouglas108

09-18-2003, 01:25 PM

^
^ ^
^ ^ ^
^ ^ ^
^ ^ ^
^ ^ ^
^ ^ ^
^ ^ ^
^
^
^
^
^
^

Regards

CD

duende

09-18-2003, 01:39 PM

Canglong!!!

I couldn't agree with you more!

And for the record... I thought most posts here were very constructive... even the ones that disagreed with the usage of Fut Sao in this situation offered me insights.

Remember... there's no right or wrong! Just different points of awareness.

Alex

Chango

09-18-2003, 02:08 PM

To read your last post was like Shaq making a power move to the hole! It wouldn't be logical to oppose his position! well said

Sifu Chango Noaks (SGS)

Tom Kagan

09-18-2003, 02:10 PM

no wonder moy tommy write in this forum u pretend miltary!!!!!!!!! i bet another sawbuck he know where all museim body burie!!!!!!!!!!!!

One of the problems with believing, whether correctly or not, that someone "knows where the bodies are buried" (if there are any) is that, generally, the person who really knows is also a person who helped bury them.

If you believe I know, then you've created a trick scenario: If I say "yes I know," then I'm a scoundrel and if I say "no I don't," then I'm a liar. So, if you'll forgive me for not giving an answer either way, I'll forgive you for asking.

William E

09-18-2003, 02:31 PM

Great post Canglong and I look forward to meeting and training in person once again in October. After the seminar I believe you will have a clearer understanding of how the attachments to right and wrong truly show the level of awareness and understanding of the individual. Truly Fau Kui.

William E.

yuanfen

09-18-2003, 04:28 PM

Canglong with hurrahs from his tribal members sez:

Then we have people like Joy and Phenix, adamantly disagreeing with what is being shown in the picture yet when man in blue asked Joy for a better application he since posted several times without so much as acknowledging man in blue. I think we all know why.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Adamant? No-just commented on the picture and even suggested
that it is justa picture and pictures do not always give a clear picture- So to a true believer- balanced comment becomes adamant.!!

Know why? Really? Highly developed intuition? Lots of alternatives- figure it out!! If you want to handle a kick that way-
fine with me.
No dogma---
An alternative? Luke- ATTACK!!! May the force be with you.

Adamantine...nunca.:-

canglong

09-18-2003, 04:50 PM

Joy,
After all your clammering for technical responses or precise detailed clarification of techniques this is the best you could do....
originally posted by yuanfen
figure it out!!

yuanfen

09-18-2003, 04:56 PM

Clammmering(sic?)? Nyet.

Selective snip-da

Read response again.

saifa5k

09-18-2003, 07:46 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Train
[B]**Yep me too, best way to defend is pretend roundhouse baseball bat and not be there ! But then that not sell books . Dave

I have to disagree with you there. I have seen someone block a roundhouse kick b4 in a sparring match. IMO, it sepends on where you catch the kick. But anyways, in the picture, I can see how you can obsorb that kick in that way. It looks decieving becuase how that picture was taken. I think the camera was at a wierd angle.

**Hello Train,
Ok, I will agree with that. In my old karate days we were taught to step in against a roundhouse kick and used a deflection with one arm while attacking the opponents center with the other. However I would not advise standing and using a stationary block against a rd house. Not saying this was what the pic was depicting, just my opinion. In fact if given a chance I would love to visit a HFY school. It sounds like a fascinating branch of wing chun.
Dave c

Rolling_Hand

09-18-2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Hendrik

<<Joy,

some just live in fantasy island. or truely naive....>>HS

Hi Hendrik,

You are very sarcastic. What does this topic have to do with your own fantasy island?? Could you easy up a little and give us your end of white crane method??

------------------------------------------------

<<Then we have people like Joy and Phenix, adamantly disagreeing with what is being shown in the picture yet when man in blue asked Joy for a better application he since posted several times without so much as acknowledging man in blue.>>Canglong

Hi Canglong,

The only thing that Hendrik may miss may be his own spiritual growth and his white crane KF, but will he not interfere with anybody's growth....hm, Hendrik is always Hendrik, what else is new with this white crane grandmasta Hendrik??

Phenix

09-18-2003, 09:20 PM

Rolling Hand,

This is what Joy post.

--------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yuanfen
Percentage issue- hands against powerful kicks-is that the best alternative?

Powerful Oyama folks or Muay Thai folks would probably smile.
-------------------------------------------------------------

and what's wrong to post my opinion about what my view on using hands to against powerful kicks?

OPps, sorry I forgot Rolling Hand can use his hands to block anything in the world. :D

The only thing that Hendrik may miss may be his own spiritual growth and his white crane KF, but will he not interfere with anybody's growth....hm, Hendrik is always Hendrik, what else is new with this white crane grandmasta Hendrik?? ---RH

Sure Sure Rolling Hand, why attack me? hahahha

When are you going to form your greatest Rolling Hand team to fight the Muay Thai and Kyukushin in Bangkok or Budokan in Tokyo?
I certainly not dare to interfere with your growth since you are the greatest master in the world who will dare to do something which even Mas oyama who can break the bull's horn with hand don't advise to do. I am sure going to buy the first row ticket to witness your greatest art of Rolling. :D

Good luck, Rolling Hand. see ya until you finished your match. let you be not interfere now on. and hope that you don't distract yourself :D

anerlich

09-18-2003, 10:09 PM

Rene,

I have that book, it is indeed a well structured, revealing and interesting book.

I bought the book after flicking through it at my bookstore. Also, I was encouraged as I had read some of John Danaher's excellent work before.

I wouldn't have bought it sight unseen though. I'm hoping when I have the opportunity to flick through "Mastering Kung Fu", I'll be as impressed as I was with "Mastering JuJitsu". But I ain't buying MKF sight unseen either.

CHS

09-18-2003, 11:53 PM

Guys,
It is JUST a cover page, what's the big deal here arguing what's right and wrong?? :confused:

It is just a matter a interpretation. But, at the minimum, the HFY guys are publishing a book to educate the world at a very affordable price. ok?

Save all your energy to critic the content if you are so interested in arguing...

CHS

Savi

09-19-2003, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by CHS
Guys,
It is JUST a cover page, what's the big deal here arguing what's right and wrong?? :confused:

It is just a matter a interpretation. But, at the minimum, the HFY guys are publishing a book to educate the world at a very affordable price. ok?

Save all your energy to critic the content if you are so interested in arguing...

CHS CHS,
An open mind is really great as it allows better chi flow, doesn't it? Thanks for putting forth the reality check. If you get the book, be prepared for a lot of reading!!! The photos and illustrations are nice too.

yuanfen

09-19-2003, 03:32 AM

Guys,
It is JUST a cover page,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In essence- that is what I said in the first place--
a gang of chips still were defensive!!
Clouds perception.

Joy C.

yuanfen

09-19-2003, 03:37 AM

Note my first post on the thread--
John W. and Hendrik--

I think that hands "blocking" an Oyama kick most likely means hospitalization....but then a demo is just a demo and a cover just a cover.

reneritchie

09-19-2003, 06:34 AM

LMAO at...

[all this good stuff] + [but I just want to insult X + Y]

Savi

09-19-2003, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
....but then a demo is just a demo and a cover just a cover. The Novice:
Generally speaking, this may be true for some books out there; where a cover is just a cover. For some people's comprehension level, Mastering Kung Fu: featuring Shaolin Wing Chun may be out of their grasp. So yes at that stage in their development, it will only be a cover until they mature further in their self-awareness and understanding. The book, which serves as an introduction to HFYWCK, has been written a bit more so for the accomplished martial artist, teacher, and military tactician/strategist/officer. I think a novice will have a more difficult time understanding the book (as opposed to a more advanced student) as it has a ton of in-depth information on HFY science and philosophy, but they can definitely learn more than enough from this one book about HFYWCK and combat.

The Not-So-Beginner-Intermediate-Advanced-Person-Type:
Now, the other group of people in the world who are more accuainted with how the impact of Harmony influences the use of the body and mind, for example this quote:

"Every single thing is just the one mind. This picture represents the perfect harmony of yin and yang in combat. The art of WCK lives not upon close range alone, but primarily by the skill of intercepting. Others think you're too permissive. Yet victory lies in making an opponent believe he's winning."

will more than likely understand the deeper information offered in the book. This is not to say that only "my group of HFY people" on and off the forum will understand the application on the cover, but even Roger was able to accurately depict the photo chosen for the cover - and I don't think he even trains HFYWCK. That one post from him taught me a lot about Roger's intellect, but more importantly I feel it is also serves as a testament to the universal basis of Time, Space and Energy that we all may have in our kung fu. Roger, may Buddha bless you.

I heard off the grapevine that the book may be released anytime within the next two weeks! And geez, if the photo on the cover can get this much attention, imagine all the photos inside the book!

Sam

09-19-2003, 08:30 PM

The technique as done in Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen is from the Cham Kiu form. James Cama Sifu is shown in mid motion as you can tell the eldow is rising to intercept and redirect the round kick. The counter kick is directed to the groin, bladder, pelvic area, and prostate. http://www.futsaoyongchunkuen.com/handfootforms.htm
The kick is done high for flexability.

Phil Redmond

09-19-2003, 08:45 PM

I'm not really following this thread but it seems as though some people don't believe that a round kick can be blocked. It can. I used to fight full contact and did it all the time even against Kyokushinkai, etc., kickers. Also I fought some good kickers back in the day like Jonas Nunez when he was in his prime.
Phil

man in blue

09-20-2003, 09:01 PM

From earlier posts to this thread:

Do you have a more efficient alternative to addressing a kick to the face if not to use the hands? Hmmm.... be practical... YES- several without hands several(different from pic) with hands

I'm aware of the fact that there are many ways to address (high) kicks. But if a kick is in the stage as shown on the cover picture, how can you address it by NOT using your arms/hands?

Yuanfen, seriously I don't understand . . . please explain.

The only thing that I read from Yuanfen in relation to using hands/arms to deal with high kicks are:

Percentage issue- hands against powerful kicks-is that the best alternative?
Powerful Oyama folks or Muay Thai folks would probably smile

and

I think that hands "blocking" an Oyama kick most likely means hospitalization...

I'm not aware of anything incorrect or unpolite by asking for an explanation . . . Sorry, Yuanfen if I did.

Still it is not really clear to me . . . HOW to deal with these high kicks if it is already in a stage as in the coverpage WITHOUT using arms and hands?

Yuanfen, Rene, Phil . . . anyone?

thanks

Man in Blue

yuanfen

09-22-2003, 01:00 AM

Response tp Man in Blue after snip from his post: I have been out of town and dont check KFO on the road- hence the delay.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not aware of anything incorrect or unpolite by asking for an explanation . . . Sorry, Yuanfen if I did.

Still it is not really clear to me . . . HOW to deal with these high kicks if it is already in a stage as in the coverpage WITHOUT using arms and hands?

Yuanfen, Rene, Phil . . . anyone?

thanks

Man in Blue
------------------------------------------------
Nothing incorrect or impolite.
I dont care to comment on the cover or ague with the HFY folks- but I am responding in the
framework of the question as you posed it- as far as high kicks.

1. When one develops good chi sao skillswithout muscling it and combined with lat sao--- you become aware of the spatial relationship between your self and the other person and you develop wing chun timing. Its an important assumption... static responses will not do.
2. Therefore footwork and mobility is important... also the details
of timing and spacing mentioned above are important.
3. Shouldnt use static blocking.
4. Shouldnt wait to react till the kick is at that level.
5.However- If already at that level---you still have options including as I have said earlier in the thread--- ATTACK. Step in and punch groin.
Timing is the key. The person kicking is on one leg---you still have two and potentially are MORE mobile. The key is well known--- wing chun structure, balance mobility(footwork) and turning.
Beginners initially are intimidated by kicks---by chum kiu stage the fears
should begin to disappear.

Yuanfen

Savi

09-22-2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
1. When one develops good chi sao skillswithout muscling it and combined with lat sao--- you become aware of the spatial relationship between your self and the other person and you develop wing chun timing. Its an important assumption... static responses will not do.
2. Therefore footwork and mobility is important... also the details
of timing and spacing mentioned above are important.
3. Shouldnt use static blocking.
4. Shouldnt wait to react till the kick is at that level.
5.However- If already at that level---you still have options including as I have said earlier in the thread--- ATTACK. Step in and punch groin.
Timing is the key. The person kicking is on one leg---you still have two and potentially are MORE mobile. The key is well known--- wing chun structure, balance mobility(footwork) and turning.
Beginners initially are intimidated by kicks---by chum kiu stage the fears
should begin to disappear.

Yuanfen From my HFY POV, I pretty much agree with MOST of what you said say for the groin punch. In order to do that you have to break your centerline, or drop into a lower stance to apply the groin punch. The only type of technique I can see resembling your suggestion would be the "Battle Punch" trained at the Luk Dim Bun Gwan level, which to my knoweldge is not intended for such use. Also breaking the centerline alignment is contrary to the nature of our natural movements. We are designed as human beings to maintain an upright posture, and that should be maintained at the right time and space. From what I know in our SNT, you only drop to the lower positions when your opponent does so.

Many of the points (aside from #3, #4 & #5) you mention above I can see fit into Mastering Kung Fu cover page. The reality of fighting is not that you "should have, could have, would have" but that things simply are, and how well you can balance and/or recover from the things you do. It is clear that you do not identify with the application (the how, why, when, where, what) on the cover, and that's perfectly understandable and natural. Not to sound condescending, but the fact that you don't agree with it ONLY tells me what you do not understand, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Phil Redmond

09-22-2003, 08:49 AM

>>Still it is not really clear to me . . . HOW to deal with these high kicks if it is already in a stage as in the coverpage WITHOUT using arms and hands?<<

Based on this statement you would have to use you arms. It would be the only option at that point. In a perfect WC world the kick should never get that close. In a pefect WC world we should never get hit period....lol. Professionals who train daily and have good reflexes still get kicked in the head. So imagine what can happen to the part time martial artist. None of us are perfect and we make mistakes. So anyone how says you don't need to block kicks with your arms or, that you can't should go to a local kickboxing gym and ask to spar with some of their best kickers.

reneritchie

09-22-2003, 11:03 AM

Andrew,

They seem to have good market penetration. My local bookstore has both Mastering Jujitsu and Mastering Karate (alas, the latter did not seem to come out as well as the former).

Renzo appears about to fight local Canadian MMA hero Carlos Newton in Pride Bushido. It will be interesting to see how close his actualization comes to the theories presented.

John Weiland

09-23-2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
>>Still it is not really clear to me . . . HOW to deal with these high kicks if it is already in a stage as in the coverpage WITHOUT using arms and hands?<<

Based on this statement you would have to use you arms. It would be the only option at that point. In a perfect WC world the kick should never get that close. In a pefect WC world we should never get hit period....lol. Professionals who train daily and have good reflexes still get kicked in the head. So imagine what can happen to the part time martial artist. None of us are perfect and we make mistakes. So anyone how says you don't need to block kicks with your arms or, that you can't should go to a local kickboxing gym and ask to spar with some of their best kickers.
Timing and position built on structure are the key.

Regards,

method man

09-23-2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

One of the problems with believing, whether correctly or not, that someone "knows where the bodies are buried" (if there are any) is that, generally, the person who really knows is also a person who helped bury them.

If you believe I know, then you've created a trick scenario: If I say "yes I know," then I'm a scoundrel and if I say "no I don't," then I'm a liar. So, if you'll forgive me for not giving an answer either way, I'll forgive you for asking.

hahahaha moy tommy boy pass #2 test!!!!!!!!!!! how u do test #1 u see knif mistak????????????

man in blue

09-23-2003, 10:25 PM

Savi, Yuanfen, Phil . . .

Thanks for clearification.

Man in Blue

namron

09-24-2003, 04:08 AM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
>>Still it is not really clear to me . . . HOW to deal with these high kicks if it is already in a stage as in the coverpage WITHOUT using arms and hands?<<

Based on this statement you would have to use you arms. It would be the only option at that point. In a perfect WC world the kick should never get that close. In a pefect WC world we should never get hit period....lol. Professionals who train daily and have good reflexes still get kicked in the head. So imagine what can happen to the part time martial artist. None of us are perfect and we make mistakes. So anyone how says you don't need to block kicks with your arms or, that you can't should go to a local kickboxing gym and ask to spar with some of their best kickers.

Where most of them will pound your legs mercilessly before finishing with the head shot.
:D

Savi

09-24-2003, 11:20 PM

Howdy,
A review I have heard from the publisher early on in the writing stages (about a year ago) is that the first couple chapters they reviewed required absolutely no changes or suggestions. Since then they have had several of their Phd level editors on hand reading the book up to completion. They told my Sifu that the new standard has been set in their "Mastering" series!

Update:
This Friday I believe the book will be en route to the stores... bet on the weekend to pick it up if it isn't already in your local book store. This coming 8th annual HFY seminar at MengsofAZ will feature all three authors on location for book signings as well as a two day seminar on Chan and Time, Space and Energy.

king chun

10-02-2003, 12:57 AM

Shaolin wing chun?!?!?! wtf?:eek: :confused:

CarlDouglas108

10-02-2003, 05:22 AM

"Shaolin wing chun?!?!?! wtf?">kc

As you are still young in your Kung Fu training it is understandable that you will react this way, as time goes on you will discover that the World of Martial Arts is a allot bigger than you think!

Regards

CD

reneritchie

10-02-2003, 09:12 AM

King Chun,

If you look at most Chinese MA, you will find a story linking them back to Shaolin. Yip Man's own written account traced his art back to Nun Ng Mui of the Henan Shaolin Temple. Some branches, like Pao Fa Lien and some Vietnamese WCK, and other arts (Siu Lam Hung Ga, Shaolin Longfist -- even non-Chinese arts like Shorinji Kempo, and modern American arts) like to use it in their name.

passing_through

10-02-2003, 11:25 AM

The book has arrived at the VTM and we are now filling in the pre-orders. Copies are available through the VTM Gift Shop at http://shop.vtmuseum.org. After the page loads, select Books on the top left of the page. Mastering Kung Fu is the first book in the list.

Jeremy R.

Savi

10-02-2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by passing_through
The book has arrived at the VTM and we are now filling in the pre-orders....

Jeremy R. Thank you Sisuk, our stock of the book should also be arriving the MengsofAZ kwoon in Chandler, AZ by the end of this week. Visitors are welcome to stop by the school to purchase the book (school is closed on Sundays).

contact information:
Meng's Martial Arts of Arizona
3029 N. Alma School Rd.
Suite 218A
Chandler, AZ 85224
Telephone: 480-820-2428
Email: Sifu@mengsofaz.com

KPM

10-07-2003, 03:09 AM

Got my copy yesterday! Have only had time to thumb through it briefly so far, but it looks really good. It appears to have lots of detailed explanations of the Hung Fa Yi theories and philosophy. However, what it does not have is illustrations of the entire forms. It shows only the 1st sections of each of the 3 empty hand forms. It also has a short section about Chi Sim WCK. I'm looking forward to reading it.

Keith

passing_through

10-07-2003, 05:57 AM

Keith,

However, what it does not have is illustrations of the entire forms. It shows only the 1st sections of each of the 3 empty hand forms.

The goal of the Mastering: series published by Human Kinetics is to have as comprehensive an overview of the subject martial art as possible. To that end, putting in the entire sequence of movements of any form would have required the removal of large parts of the text. As it was, the original manuscript was over 300 pages before adding photos while the final book is slightly over 200 pages with photos. In addition to photos of the forms, several historical photos were also left out of this project. As it stands, Mastering Kung Fu gives a very comprehensive overview of the HFY system – which is the goal of the text.

As an FYI, there is a comprehensive book on SNT in the works, to include photos of the form.

Jeremy R.

duende

10-07-2003, 11:48 AM

Yeah,

just like Jeremy said.... alot of photos and stuff had to be omitted by the publisher. I'm glad you are happy with it Keith. And although there is a HFY SLT book in the works, I think most people will be utterly amazed at the depth of detail and historical research presented in this book. Seeing it for the first time in it's completed form last Sunday night in class was quite a mind blowing experience.

It is definitely NOT a light read.

Still waiting on my copy btw, so I can get started.

Alex

desertwingchun2

10-07-2003, 03:00 PM

All the dedicated and hard work definetly paid off. After the rivisions, many sections were noticably shorter in length, but the information is there and offers alot to anyone interested in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.

Congratulations on a job well done to Grand Master Gee, Master Meng and Sifu Loewenhagen !!!!!

Extra "thank you!" to Grand Master Gee for offering his knowledge and sharing it world-wide.

-David
AKA Daid ..... ;)

KPM

10-08-2003, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by passing_through
Keith,

However, what it does not have is illustrations of the entire forms. It shows only the 1st sections of each of the 3 empty hand forms.

The goal of the Mastering: series published by Human Kinetics is to have as comprehensive an overview of the subject martial art as possible. To that end, putting in the entire sequence of movements of any form would have required the removal of large parts of the text. As it was, the original manuscript was over 300 pages before adding photos while the final book is slightly over 200 pages with photos. In addition to photos of the forms, several historical photos were also left out of this project. As it stands, Mastering Kung Fu gives a very comprehensive overview of the HFY system – which is the goal of the text.

As an FYI, there is a comprehensive book on SNT in the works, to include photos of the form.

Jeremy R.

Hi Jeremy!

Understood. I made that comment only because higher up in this thread it was asked if the forms were illustrated and I believe it was Savi that said he thought that they were. I just wanted to clarify for those that were thinking of that.

Keith

Savi

10-09-2003, 09:46 PM

Hey Keith! I had to read back through the thread about what you said. I wanted to be certain of what is was I wrote, and I found it on pages 5 & 6:

Originally posted by Savi
...There are photos of many combat applications (like Kiu Sau), as well as sections of Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Ji, the wooden dummy and the weapons... Forgive me for quoting myself but I couldn't think of any other way to show what it was I said! In any case I hope you really enjoy the book. The first couple chapters takes you all the way back to the beginning of the Ming Dynasty to illustrate the evolution of combat in Shaolin to Wing Chun. It is a lot of reading...

KPM

10-10-2003, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by Savi
Hey Keith! I had to read back through the thread about what you said. I wanted to be certain of what is was I wrote, and I found it on pages 5 & 6:
Forgive me for quoting myself but I couldn't think of any other way to show what it was I said! In any case I hope you really enjoy the book. The first couple chapters takes you all the way back to the beginning of the Ming Dynasty to illustrate the evolution of combat in Shaolin to Wing Chun. It is a lot of reading...

---Oops! My bad! Didn't mean to misrepresent you! Thanks Savi.

Keith

hunt1

10-13-2003, 12:18 PM

AS I read the posts I get the impression that this book includes what is said to be historical research. Is my impression correct?

If so how often is the book' History of Guangdong Martial Arts' referred to or footnoted or listed as a source?
I ask since up to this time this book is the only historical work produced by Chineese historians in China about the martial arts of Guangdong. Over 100 historians contibuted to this book so any legitimate historical work would almost have to include references to this book. This book does include chapters on wing chun and weng chun bu the way.

Chango

10-13-2003, 04:27 PM

Hello Hunt,
It would be a good idea to get a copy and/or visit www.hfy108.com for further discussion and explination. This will help further healthy conversation.

yuanfen

10-13-2003, 05:14 PM

Chango- numerous posts have pushed the book here- no problem. I can appreciate the excitement.

Hunt 1 asked a simple question here- folks who have seen the book should be able to state whether the work on CMA in Guangdong has been integrated, or otherwise referred to or critiqued. A reasonable expectation it would seem in the context of research.

Train

10-13-2003, 06:33 PM

Hi Joy,

So i heard there was a HFY workshop in AZ...... Did you try to attend?? If not why? You should have asked the question there, right? you sound like your instigating

Peace Out!

yuanfen

10-13-2003, 07:50 PM

Train asks Joy:

you sound like your instigating
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instigating? What? How?
I deal with simple questions like that every day all the time
regarding writings, articles and books about a variety of subjects..without taking it personally.
Standard procedure on any thesis or research... have you looked at this xyz work?
What do you think about it? So on and so forth.
Is there any need to be defensive about Hunt 1's question?
The book has been advertised many times on this forum and Hunt's was a simple query about the book.

Train

10-13-2003, 10:58 PM

hmmmm...... :) alright it's not instigating then... ok whatever, but you still havn't answered my other questions...

Peace Outy!

KPM

10-14-2003, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by hunt1
AS I read the posts I get the impression that this book includes what is said to be historical research. Is my impression correct?

If so how often is the book' History of Guangdong Martial Arts' referred to or footnoted or listed as a source?
I ask since up to this time this book is the only historical work produced by Chineese historians in China about the martial arts of Guangdong. Over 100 historians contibuted to this book so any legitimate historical work would almost have to include references to this book. This book does include chapters on wing chun and weng chun bu the way.

Hi hunt1

The book contains only a few references within the text itself. No footnoted references and no list of references used at the end of the book. This is unfortunate, but remember it was intended as a martial art book for the popular press, not an academic work. I don't think the book you refer to was ever mentioned. But that doesn't necessary mean it wasn't used. It does sound like it would be very useful and interesting. Is it in English and is it available in the US?

Keith

duende

10-14-2003, 07:37 AM

I'm with Keith on this one....

For me, I woud have liked to have footnotes etc.... As they help me continue my reading on the subject matter. But like Keith said, that's more of an academic thing.

Don't quote me on anything, but personally I suspect that when confronted with size limitations, that things like footnotes and other reference type sections were dropped in favor of more actual writing areas.

Remember, the original was over 300 pages long...

Alex

yuanfen

10-14-2003, 08:34 AM

Train sez:So i heard there was a HFY workshop in AZ...... Did you try to attend?? If not why? You should have asked the question there, right? you sound like your instigating

((Whoa! i dint ask the question- Hunt 1 did. BTW when discussing things ina forum-you are discussing things ina forum!! yuanfen))

Train also sez:hmmmm...... alright it's not instigating then... ok whatever, but you still havn't answered my other questions...

((Whatever!(sic?). Also- answer- No i didnt go. Why? I am a relatively free human being! I prioritize my activities depending on time on hand. On another thread -you asked whether any of Sifu fong;s students went. I dont know and it does not really matter. Sifu Fong does not prohibit his students from going to other martial events or activities. It's upto them as individuals.
Yuanfen)))

duende sez:As they help me continue my reading on the subject matter. But like Keith said, that's more of an academic thing.

((Not a problem. Most martial arts books are not academic by nature
and make no claims for academic research. If a book helps someone-that's good. Commercial publishers trim things with sales in mind- understandably. University presses are different things- but they generally dont do martial arts. Doug Wile's great book on Taiji history is one great and notable exception.Yuanfen))

hunt1

10-14-2003, 10:13 AM

To start I have nothing against HFYWC or those that practice it.
My question is purely acedemic in nature.There is nothing wrong with saying this is my systems creation story take it or leave it. However if something is put out as historical fact then those facts are open to and should be questioned.
The book that I mentioned is important because it was written in 1981 before any of this my wing chun is the best, most original etc stuff started. It was written by trained degreed historians. In other words professionals. They had the cooperation of the Chineese goverenment and had access to all written records ,census data etc. The book was not about Wing Chun but covered all martial arts of the area. Wing Chun being just one. When the book came out many martial arts had problems with it .
I have read a partial translation. At the time I didnt think to get a copy becuase it was well before there was any public widespread interest in the topic. The person who was traslating the book was a PHD student at UNiv. of Chicago. I knew him because I shared my masters thesis with him.
The book does contain some very interesting information that is backed up with verifiable raw data.

hunt1

10-14-2003, 10:26 AM

Also I do not mean to imply that this book is at odds with HFY. I dont know HFY history or stories . All I am asking is how does HFY deal with the information put forth in this book. Does it agree disagree explain the differences etc. Or is this book completely ignored.
My questions are all moot if The HFY book is not being held out as historical fact. Good stories are good stories and should be treated as such. Always up to the listener what to believe.

reneritchie

10-14-2003, 10:30 AM

Hunter,

There are several good historical books, some of them even in English. Most of them contradict many of the popular MA misconceptions. I highly recommend anyone interested in WCK history give them a go. Any of Qin Baoqi's work is great. In English, his book with Dian Murray (Tiandihui) is excellent as it, like Owensby et. al.'s 'Secret Societies Reconsidered', dispels a lot of the myths about Shaolin, Fan Qing Fu Ming, Ming Scion, etc. 'Stranger at the Gate' goes into details about the area particularly involving WCK, the Red Turban Rebellion.

hunt1

10-14-2003, 02:08 PM

Rene

Thanks for the books. I realize there are many books available that can shed light on the many wing chun stories that have been put forth. I bring up the history of Guongdong martial arts only because it does directly address creation myths and 19th century teachers of several styles that grew up with wing chun. It is interesting in that it names names and also makes clear names that are fiction.
Now it is far from the be all end all and there are several instances where nicknames took the place of real names etc. Also so many names are similiar. How often I wonder was Yip Po Ching mistaked for Yip Mans son? However the information in this book certainly must be addressed and dealt with by anyone, not just those supporting HFY, that attempts to show on a factual basis who created Wing Chun .
Some one might also find historical support for their version of history. It would be of value to some to be able to point out their line can be traced by independent historians

Chango

10-14-2003, 02:24 PM

Hello Gents,
I would like to ask you to read the entire book before passing judgements. I think one can see by the technical, and phylosophy aspect the book really ties things together. We must also remember books and previous publications are not the only sources for research. one must realize the material has been cross checked by other museums and historical institutions as well!

Hunt,
I did not take offense at your question. I just wanted to direct you to a better resource for questions regarding the book. I did not know that some are sensitive to me reffering you to a better equipted source for your questions. I hope you get all of your questions answered when you finally read the actual book. until then I hope you keep and open mind :)

Sifu Noaks

Savi

10-14-2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by hunt1
The book that I mentioned is important because it was written in 1981 before any of this my wing chun is the best, most original etc stuff started. It was written by trained degreed historians. In other words professionals. They had the cooperation of the Chineese goverenment and had access to all written records ,census data etc. The book was not about Wing Chun but covered all martial arts of the area. Wing Chun being just one. Hunt1,
You pose an interesting question. All I have to offer you is this:

Most of the research surfacing out of China is actually of recent years. One thing to keep in mind is that practically all traditional (as in originating in China's Dynasties) martial arts have left China well over 50 years ago. Many of them have relocated to other countries outside of China. While I myself do not know of this book you speak of being used as a reference, much of the VTM data and research consists of numerous sources inside and outside of China.

As Duende stated, the 'author's-cut' is actually well over 300 pages. Much information has been cut out for economical reasons. In truth, this book is only intended as an introduction into the Hung Fa Yi, but rest assured there is a lot to digest. The book actually begins with China's history in the 6th century.

In my opinion, this book is not intended for storytime pillow talk. It was not written to promote what has now become commonly accepted as "his-story". It most certainly is not intended to boost anybody's ego or personal agenda. When those that have purchased the book finish reading it, it becomes quite obvious how objective the material is. I am sure that all of us have a desire to find something greater than any one person or thing, and if that is true then this book sets an excellent example of integrity and focus.

Zhuge Liang

10-14-2003, 09:57 PM

Hello Savi,

My 2 cents.

I don't presume to speak for Hunt1, but I don't believe it was his intention to infer one thing or another about the book. I think he was just curious to know if an apparently very important professional historical research book was referenced. I don't think he meant anything by it.

And with regards to other, non-book research, there is no reason they cannot be properly referenced as well. If some information came from some historical academy or museum from China, it doesn't take more than one line to note it. Whether the source of any particular piece of data came from a book, an essay, a website, or a documentary, and whether it came from within China or without, they can just as easily be foot or endnoted. Most people won't notice or care, but for one or two people who do, they can cross check the references and verify the information in the book if they wanted to. This would only lend credibility to the book.

But if, as you said, Mastering Kung Fu is meant more as an introduction to HFY and not so much a historical record, that is perfectly fine too. It's a good thing to clarify the intention of the book to it's prospective audience so they have some idea of what they're getting when they buy it.

Regards,
Alan

duende

10-14-2003, 11:09 PM

The book is intended as an introduction to HFYWC by SIfu Gee, and as a presentation of historical research accumulated over the many years by the VT museum. Anyone is free to dispute it as much as they like.

Alan,

as much as you presume not to speak for Hunt1 you do just that. What's more is that you infer albeit in a nice way that the book's intent is misleading, and needs clarifying.

Hunt1's posts and all the following responses have been very clear... and not once did I get the impression that he was either dis-sastisfied with the material presented in anyway, or thought it was mis-leading in anyway. He just asked a simple question, and a few HFY members tried to answer him the best we could. He even graciously took unneeded big steps to make sure that his inquiries would not be take the wrong way.

Hope that makes things "clear"

Alex

Zhuge Liang

10-14-2003, 11:39 PM

Hi Alex,

as much as you presume not to speak for Hunt1 you do just that.

Hmmm, I seriously don't think so. I said "I think" and "I don't think", as opposed to saying "Hunt1 said" and "Hunt1 didn't say". If I was not clear before, let me clarify now. It was not my intention to speak for Hunt1.

What's more is that you infer albeit in a nice way that the book's intent is misleading, and needs clarifying.

Well, I seriously doubt I did that. That would suggest I had a predisposed notion of what the intention of the book was in the first place, which I didn't. In fact, I was curious as well as to what type of book it was, and thanks to Hunt1's questions, and the bunch of helpful answers (including Chango's, Savis, and yours), I have a better idea of what the book's about.

But I'm sure you didn't mean to put words into my mouth, and that it's just a minor misunderstanding. Anyways I look forward to reading the book! It's already on order from Amazon.

Regards,
Alan

KPM

10-15-2003, 03:12 AM

If size limitations and the publisher's wishes were the deciding factor, and assuming the original version of the book had references, has any thought been given to putting up those references up on the VTM website?

Keith

duende

10-15-2003, 08:03 AM

KPM,

I played no direct part in the writing of "Mastering Kung Fu". I only tried to give you answers based on the little information I am aware of concerning the writing of the book.

I have however made the VT museum aware of this thread, in hope that they can address the issues you have raised.

This a concern for me as well, simply because HFY has a few detractors. And I can easily predict them focusing on this issue in an attempt to steal away some of the book's merit.

But as Chango says in an earlier post...

"read the entire book before passing judgements. I think one can see by the technical, and phylosophy aspect the book really ties things together. We must also remember books and previous publications are not the only sources for research. one must realize the material has been cross checked by other museums and historical institutions as well!"

CarlDouglas108

10-15-2003, 08:46 AM

For those of you that are genuinely interested in the books contents?, surely it would be more efficient to carry on this conversation over on HFY108 (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=47) as the book has a forum all to itself???

There you will find that you can ask questions to those people directly involved in writing it?

Regards

CD

canglong

10-15-2003, 09:10 AM

originally posted by hunt1
AS I read the posts I get the impression that this book includes what is said to be historical research. Hunter could you point out those post in question because the previous post don't read that way to me. Secondly Jeremy answered you prior to you even asking the question when he states,
As it stands, Mastering Kung Fu gives a very comprehensive overview of the HFY system – which is the goal of the text. Questioning the facts and validity of a book you have yet to read is pointless, you have already disqualified yourself as a historian all you have to go on is the works of others so here is another source of refence for you to use in the future, reference them against one another yourself and draw your own conclusions.
Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
It's a good thing to clarify the intention of the book to it's prospective audience so they have some idea of what they're getting when they buy it. I believe this was done in the title of the book.

Savi

10-15-2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
I don't believe it was his intention to infer one thing or another about the book. I think he was just curious to know if an apparently very important professional historical research book was referenced. I don't think he meant anything by it. No offense was taken by his questioning, I was just offering a broader perspective to the thread.
Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
And with regards to other, non-book research, there is no reason they cannot be properly referenced as well. If some information came from some historical academy or museum from China, it doesn't take more than one line to note it. Whether the source of any particular piece of data came from a book, an essay, a website, or a documentary, and whether it came from within China or without, they can just as easily be foot or endnoted. Most people won't notice or care, but for one or two people who do, they can cross check the references and verify the information in the book if they wanted to. This would only lend credibility to the book. There are references in the book, and it's within the text. As far as some sort of bibliography being in the book, there is none.
Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
But if, as you said, Mastering Kung Fu is meant more as an introduction to HFY and not so much a historical record, that is perfectly fine too. It's a good thing to clarify the intention of the book to it's prospective audience so they have some idea of what they're getting when they buy it. In truth Alan, the preface of the book tells the reader exactly what the intentions of the book is about. I would suggest to all who have the book or are waiting to purchase it to read the forward to the preface sections before beginning the chapter reading. That should answer most of the questioning regarding the focus of the book.

desertwingchun2

10-15-2003, 02:18 PM

Zhuge Liang says ...
In fact, I was curious as well as to what type of book it was, and thanks to Hunt1's questions, and the bunch of helpful answers (including Chango's, Savis, and yours), I have a better idea of what the book's about.

A little late but here's my $.02 ... The book offers a lot of technical information on different aspects of the HFYWC system, a variety of pictures including application and partial forms and will give the reader a better understanding of the system.

In the text the source of information used is referrenced.

And as for the edited material, alot of it was the history aspect not only of HFYWC but also its inheritor. No mention was made of Grand Master Gee being a direct descendant of Chu Hsi. No mention of his grandfathers prominent position at Wong Bo Military Academy. The section discussing GM Gee's sihing also hit the editors floor. So maybe in the second printing this material will be included but until then the book is focused on the HFYWC system rather than its history.

-David

hunt1

10-15-2003, 03:04 PM

Canglong - Your post makes it clear to me people read or hear what they want to read or hear not what is really written or is said. Fortunatly for me many other HFY memebers read and understood my question and answered me.
As for what posts gave me my impressions . Dont know, not worth my time to reread this thread. Also doesnt matter with so much said for so long on so many thread about HFY.
As for me being a historian. Never have said or claimed to be a Martial Arts historian. I do have a Masters in History though so I do know what constitutes historical research and what doesnt. Never said I read the book . I was asking those who had what was in it. Several made it clear it was not a historical work. Bingo !
Question asked and answered how simple.

desertwingchun2

10-15-2003, 08:28 PM

Never said I read the book . I was asking those who had what was in it. Several made it clear it was not a historical work. Bingo !Question asked and answered how simple. - hunt1

Actually, not so simple. The book in it's original format covered alot of historical information. Not only from the oral history passed down through the HFYWC ancestors, but also from research conducted by the Ving Tsun Museum, Grand Master Andreas Hoffman and from many martial artists who offered information to Master Meng during his many visits to China. The editing staff removed over 1/3 of the original manuscript! The majority of which was historical information! The focus the editors chose to take was more along the lines of the technical aspects of the system.

Even with all the editing, the book does offer much historical information never before released to the public. So in that sense it is a historical book.

-David

Savi

10-15-2003, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by hunt1
Several made it clear it was not a historical work. Bingo ! Actually, that's a premature Bingo Hunt1. There appears to be different interpretations to the term 'historical' here. What exactly do you define as 'historical'?

If you mean that it's the first book ever published (not just mentioning it here and there) on HFY in all of history?
-Then yes.

If it covers the history of HFY?
-Then yes.

If it covers the historical background of HFY's combat, philosophy and health training?
-Then yes, it is a historical book.

etc...

If it is a book intended for academic cross referencing and source verification? That is not a question of being 'historical'. Only people who 1. know where to look in the book, and 2. have access to the information put forth in the book can verify its information.

So I'd advise being really careful/more clear with how exactly you are wording your questions, so as to lessen the level of misinterpretation.

Cheers,
-Savi.

William E

10-15-2003, 10:39 PM

First let me say to all, especially to those who have yet to purchase the book, that there is a great deal of information based on research as well through Hou Chuen San Sau: Teaching One-on-One. Although some of the material was edited out this book is not a light read like some of the other Wing Chun books I’ve read on the shelves with only, say, three pages of history and development on HFY.

My personal opinion and that of others I’ve spoken with is that the material presented will resonate with the experienced and professional martial artist because of the high standards set by the experienced writers of this book. Check it out for yourself and you’ll know what I mean.

Special thanks to Grand Master Gee for presenting the material to the public, and Master Meng and Sifu Lowenhagen for your truly generous contribution to the book. It is unfortunate that so much material was taken out of this book but it is my hope that the next book will cover less material but at an even deeper level – possibly Sil Nim Tau.

Although I am not a member I am thankful to the VTM and the research they’ve performed and hope that others on this forum would follow some of the standards listed below.

Ving Tsun Museum Mission Statement

In recognition of Ving Tsun as a living art form, the Ving Tsun Museum’s express mission is the preservation and advancement of the Ving Tsun art into and beyond the 21st century.

• Documenting and researching its history.
• Archiving its treasures and artifacts.
• Updating its training methods with proven scientific teaching aids, tools, and certifications.
• Expanding its practitioners’ comprehension and use of the system through examination and distribution of knowledge.
• Recognize its great contributors, both past and present.
• Providing a home for all Ving Tsun families to gather and share their rich heritage, regardless of lineage, in an atmosphere free of prejudice, personal gains, or political considerations.

William E.

----------------------------------------------------

"Every action in life has a consequence".

anerlich

10-15-2003, 10:55 PM

Jeez, talk about a saturation-bombing approach to guerilla marketing. Well, it worked!

I've ordered the darn book already!

Along with the "Rickson Gracie: Choke" DVD., which I've seen several times and greatly enjoyed.

Will post a review without fear or favour once read. I'm particularly interested to see how it and "Mastering Ju Jitsu" stack up.

There was one review up on the Amazon site, but it was written by a self-identified student of Gee Sifu and so gushingly complimentary that I had to mark it as of no assistance to me. Sorry!

this book is not a light read like some of the other Wing Chun books I’ve read on the shelves with only, say, three pages of history and development on HFY

Jeez, I wonder which book he's talking about? If it's the one I think it is, don't put it down - it actually brought Gee Sifu and HFY to the initial attention of most of the world's WC practitioners. Respect is due, I think.

William E

10-15-2003, 11:16 PM

I think Rene's book is a good read and a nice reference book on other styles. My comments were only related to the Hung Suen section of the book which presents only limited information on only a few pages. The Mastering book is almost twice the pagesize as well. I look forward to your unbiased review of the book.

William E.

anerlich

10-15-2003, 11:32 PM

Rick Spain's Hung Suen Wing Chun (TWC)
Will/Machado Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Hock Hochheim style CQC - knife and DMS

as mentioned in the first link on my .sig.

How is that relevant?

reneritchie

10-16-2003, 04:30 AM

1. Choke is excellent. I had a chance to see the outtakes, which are also very good, and it really shows a pretty darn amazing MAist able to make his body do what he wants when he wants to convincing effect.

2. Amazon.Ca is claiming a speedy 3-5 weeks delivery for MKF, which makes me wonder why we bothered inventng the internet.

3. Complete Wing Chun was an introduction. I could write an encyclopedia about 3 moves if I wanted to, but funding might be a problem and the audience would be just as likely to use it to beat me to death.

4. Renzo's MJJ was very good. Danaher (sp?) writes as well as his PhD would suggest, though its somewhat repetitive and the format seems to favor text/theory over pictures, inverse to the Sheik's books.

5. Doubtless, none will make Oprah's, or even Kelly Rippa's (sp?) book club.

canglong

10-16-2003, 06:39 PM

hunt1,
The simple thing to do would be to purchase and read the book yourself or contact the VT Museum directly to inquire as to the vaildity and depth of their research. If you can't afford to or choose not to purchase the book you can suggest your local libray purchase the book and you can read it there, and for the record I prefer pokeno.

Ultimatewingchun

10-20-2003, 06:47 AM

Books on HFY are nice, and hopefully I'll get around to reading it at some point in the near future (this new one that is a big part of the discussion on this thread)....

But how about a HFY video series? With lots of APPLICATION action, as opposed to just showing forms, chi sao, Wooden Dummy, etc.

That's what I would be most interested in seeing Garret Gee do in the future. Application is the "nuts and bolts" of any martial art, in my opinion. History (real or imagined) is nice, scientific theory, forms, chi sao, etc. are nice - but "show me the beef"...for me, all else is secondary at best, and often times a major distraction at worst...ie. - a distraction in terms of judging the real efficiency of the art in question.

CarlDouglas108

10-20-2003, 01:21 PM

Sifu Parlati,

Maybe you might be interested in coming to a Hung Fa Yi workshop at the VTM in November,HFY Workshop (http://home.vtmuseum.org/information/calendar/index.php) , that way you'd get to see the beef in the flesh?.

Regards

CD

Keng Geng

10-20-2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Application is the "nuts and bolts" of any martial art, in my opinion. History (real or imagined) is nice, scientific theory, forms, chi sao, etc. are nice - but "show me the beef"...for me, all else is secondary at best, and often times a major distraction at worst...ie. - a distraction in terms of judging the real efficiency of the art in question. Actually it's the application that's the distraction. Application is for those who need to be spoon fed. I can pull applications out of a hat if you like. You're supposedly a sifu, right V.P.? Can't you figure them out yourself. Come one, it's easy enough..

Mckind13

10-20-2003, 06:58 PM

Keng

You missed the point op VP's post.

Sequences and linked techniques can be made up all day but to see someone execute against energy and a determined opponent speaks volumes about the person and the system.

Cheers

David McKinnon

Savi

10-20-2003, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by Mckind13
Keng

You missed the point op VP's post.

Sequences and linked techniques can be made up all day but to see someone execute against energy and a determined opponent speaks volumes about the person and the system. I'm with Carl D. on this, why settle for a video when you can try it in real life? I say try it first hand at the VTM's November seminar! There is no better way than experience!

canglong

10-20-2003, 07:33 PM

David,
It seems to me that Keng Geng's post was right on target. Applying techniques shows a minimal level of understanding and more a persons ability to mimic what they see more than anything else. Having a technique does not indicate a persons depth of knowledge as illustrated by a persons ability to know when, when not and why to apply all that he or she may have learned. Conversely, if you can read someone else's kung fu and understand its meaning and apply some of its principle concepts maybe not all but some this does demonstrate a persons level of understanding that transcends superficial labels which is crucial to understanding the true nature of all things considered wing chun regardless of style or lineage.

Keng Geng

10-20-2003, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Mckind13
Keng, you missed the point of VP's post. Of course I did! That's what I do - see past the point that is attempting to be made.

Sequences and linked techniques can be made up all day but to see someone execute against energy and a determined opponent speaks volumes about the person and the system. Rephrase: Speaks volumes about the person. (period) Even if they suck, they may still have something to teach you.

Take Moy Yat for example... Few can say they've seen him do much, but he's produced some fairly good teachers.

anerlich

10-20-2003, 10:27 PM

I'm with Carl D. on this, why settle for a video when you can try it in real life? I say try it first hand at the VTM's November seminar! There is no better way than experience!

Agree with the last sentence, but not everyone can afford this.
The world is bigger than the continental US. Actually, Wing Chun came from outside it!

I'd probably be up for five grand for a round trip. No way I could justify that expenditure, plus the travelling time and cost of holidays, etc. to myself, let alone my SO.

And if a $30-50 video or DVD were available that would be a much easier and better purchasing decision for me. I've decided the book was a good purchasing decision at $13 (hope I was right!).

If you follow your argument to the end, all you guys that attend the VTM regularly should have no use for the book.

Video MA is getting better and better. Some of the BJJ and other grappling tapes available have raised the bar pretty high.

If you are really serious about spreading the HFY message, you need to consider various modes and media of communication.

Mckind13

10-20-2003, 10:47 PM

Canglong

To be blunt you are wrong.

Application says everything about a person’s knowledge ad level of understanding.

If like Keng says, and I can agree that some are a better coach, then we see that depth of knowledge in those they have trained.

Seeing a person Chi Sao, apply techniques or spar can tell loads about them, their art and the way it is taught/ they have learned it in there kwoon.

David

yuanfen

10-21-2003, 05:20 AM

Talking past each other?

One has to understand as well as apply.

Applications can show understanding---but not all observers are co-equal in seeing and understanding what goes on...
in many top flight skillful activities....

even in boxing- don't/can't depend on the Howard Cosells.....or
the Larry Merchants...

so who is seeing and judging what is going on makes a difference even in wc.

duende

10-21-2003, 08:06 AM

I'm with Canglong and Joy on this one... One has to understand what to look for.

Also, I might add... making a video demonstrating fighting is very difficult imho... In my experience they often turn out very fake and scripted looking. But again, this might pass below some people's radar.

Also, every "real" application of WC I've ever seen, (or heard about for that matter...) was over in just a few seconds. You'd need alot of fights to fill up a tape.

Alex

For now... even though it may be pricey for some.... A seminar is the best way to go.

yuanfen

10-21-2003, 08:30 AM

Last night in Monday night football- between Kanasas City and the Raiders- there was lots of details in strategy and tactices-
and John Madden was in top form in sharing his analysis--
Rush Limbaugh or Dennis Miller would have been hopeless in his shoes.

The quality of perception and analytical skills of an observer
are indispensable. Also sometimes very skillful people are very selective about what and when to demonstrate. Roy Jones doesnt take every fight but each one is a gem.

Depending on clear theory without testing or depending on observation of applications alone - both have their flaws IMO.

anerlich

10-21-2003, 04:21 PM

For now... even though it may be pricey for some.... A seminar is the best way to go.

***WAY*** too pricey for me, especially when the country I live in already has more than its share of first rate MA practitioners and instructors, including those belonging to a number of WC strains.

Guess I'm stuck with the book then, though IMNSHO the same criticisms that can be applied to video are equally applicable to printed media. But books share some of the advantages of video, and each of these has its own.

If I were bloody minded enough (and I'm not far off) I could list plenty of weaknesses with a seminar format - lack of ability to review, a controlled agenda with limited time to explore tangents ... If seminars were perfect there would be no need for a book.

Videos aren't a perfect medium, but they aren't worthless or devilspawn either. Jeez, can't you guys at least entertain the notion?

Ernie

10-21-2003, 07:12 PM

as for being able to see a persons skill on video , and what to look for it's kind of a cop out to say , it's hard to show skill .
very simply put '' body mechanics don't lie ''
you can talk about all these wonderful idea's and theories and explanations of how so in so does this or that . but the one universal element is the human body in motion , co ordination , timing , being relaxed , calm mind all this is very easy to see on tape in drills and demos . unless of course it's lacking . if something has to be over explained , then it is lacking , if you truly have skill it will be obvious , if all you can do is explain your skill , and not express your skill then there is something very basic missing .
if as I've heard '' I can't show you it might hurt you to much '' then they have no control and no skill , I'm not implying this is the case with the person being discussed in this thread but in general on being able to express skill on tape .
basically people can talk all day and come up with fancy ideas and special drills and concepts but in 5 seconds on tape I can see if the person has good or bad body mechanics . any one can tell the difference between a smooth coordinated person to a clunky forced one .
now that being said some things do truly need to be felt to be appreciated but even then you can see the clarity of a motion when everything works as one .

2 tears in a bucket

jucraze

10-21-2003, 08:02 PM

I haven't read the full post so please forgive me if I am wrong. It seems to me that there is an argument over levels of understanding. There are actually many ways one can apply ving tsun (or wing chun) and they do not have to be combative. It has to do with your natural personality and that is what ving tsun is about: expression.

There is no such thing as a martial art that can turn mama's boys into killers. The fact of the matter is that it is not in thier nature to fight. Ving tsun will manifest itself in other ways in people like that.

A good fighter in ving tsun is good because that is all he/she thinks about when they train. You might be a good fighter because of ving tsun but that might be all you can do.

To sum it up: its not just a martial art, it is a way of life. You can use ving tsun principle in business, relationships, and even use it to change or improve other martial art techniques very much like Bruce had done in his day.

Phenix

10-21-2003, 09:12 PM

http://www.bullshido.com/dl_goto.asp?id=54

just a data point of WC versus Kyokushin in the late 70's in Tokyo.
Hope that we are better now. IMHO.

Ernie

10-21-2003, 09:24 PM

dude
both those guys sucked ,
the wing chun guy just sucked more

Phenix

10-21-2003, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
dude
both those guys sucked ,
the wing chun guy just sucked more

Well, they try thier best.
in a KO type of tournament and one needs to do breaking to test no pull back damaging power before validate for the match. There are lots of mental pressure... people can get real KO. IMHO. atleast that is my experience in those days. We all just human, no magic, no superman.

Ernie

10-21-2003, 10:20 PM

i hear you but i think some one once said ,[ bricks don't hit back ]
or have timing , distance or footwork niether did either of those guys , the guy who won did have a decent thigh '' low line kick''
i'll give him that .
as for mental pressure , from what the wing chun guy was a joke , the pressure would have been from holding back the laughter .
if your seasoned and have a functional arsanel '' more then just 1 or 2 tools that you have to make work '' you just relax and flow sometimes you win sometimes you lose that's life
.
don't get me wrong i have alot of respect for anyone that gets in there and goes head to head with a skilled person . but niether of those guys had any real talent , it was most obvious in the control of distance or complete lack of it .
the guy who one might have been a decent fighter but the wing chun guy was so bad he made both of them look horrible . often it is hard to fight a uncrispy awkward person there timing is broken and slurred , this will throw off your timing and range perhaps this was the case

yuanfen

10-21-2003, 10:35 PM

I could not open it this time. But I believe that I have seen that scene before- the wing chun guy was doing pretty bad wing chun.
I agree with Ernie on this one.
Wing chun has spread too fast for its own good.

Phenix

10-21-2003, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
i think some one once said ,[ bricks don't hit back ]
or have timing , distance or footwork niether did either of those guys , ...........

Sure bricks don't hit back. but facing a hand can brake bricks or a roundhorse kick can brake wood is not that relax. Distance and Timing are a dependent factor of stress up there. Unless one is really confident in one's skill.

In my opion,
Talent is relative. fight is relative. what one see up there is different from what we see down here or while in training at the school. and sometimes we opps ... IMHO. I defend that WC guy because even Ali lost and WSL took a kick and lay flat in Taiwan.... So, just hope that we all learn and improve after decades. who is perfect? Nothing good or bad. just reality.

yuanfen

10-21-2003, 11:05 PM

Phenix

10-21-2003, 11:10 PM

Phoenix- you are right about not trying to stop powerful kick
with hands specially when standing still.
But mobile wing chun is a different thing.
Good wing chun footwork comes after the slt.---J

Joy, I agree. However, it is very different to fight our own style then the other style. sport style and non sport style. sometimes, we don't know or never expect which angle things might come in.... IMHO.

I had heard BTW about the wsl in the taiwan story. I am sure he learned from that experience. He was quite young at the time. --J

I am sure he did.
I heard he was staying all night eating chatting with friends before that match. So, he opps. life.

namron

10-22-2003, 02:25 AM

About a hundred chain punches to the body from the wc guy, only to be put down by one sweet rip to the body from his opponent.

The rules in this bout look similar to the K1 tapes I own.

Hand wraps only, full contact kicks to legs, torso and head but punches to torso only (no head shots).

Would the wc guy have done any better with head rules?

He looked like his head was down and was leaning pretty low forward.

yuanfen

10-22-2003, 06:38 AM

Namron wonders:

Would the wc guy have done any better with head rules?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly... but in both structure and mobility he hadalot to learn about wing chun imo.

chris

10-22-2003, 06:43 AM

Namron wrote:
>>About a hundred chain punches to the body from the wc guy, only to be put down by one sweet rip to the body from his opponent.

As Ernie said you have to give the guy credit for being willing to test his skills in the first place - and although it is almost always easier to see faults in others as opposed to oneself - calling that chain punching seems a bit generous.

>>>Would the wc guy have done any better with head rules?

He looked like his head was down and was leaning pretty low forward. >>>

If it weren't for the little training sequence at the start of the video - would you have been able to determine that he was supposed to be a WC guy? Based on what he did in the fight I don't think I would have known.

:confused:

Ernie

10-22-2003, 07:35 AM

hendrik
[Sure bricks don't hit back. but facing a hand can brake bricks or a roundhouse kick can brake wood is not that relax. Distance and Timing are a dependent factor of stress up there. Unless one is really confident in one's skill.]

I used to feel the same way before I understood how to control distance , all the power in the world is only useful at the end of it's action , the head of the snake , the last 7 inches of a weapon and only at the apex of the power line.
all you need to be is and inch or so away and all that power is empty ,or one inch in and you smoother the power , or put up a bone on bone obstruction and the power breaks itself becomes it's on worse enemy
if you don't have a efficient delivery system '' footwork '' the power is also useless , what is functional power in combat anyway , the ability to hit aggressive person in motion while you are in motion and inflict damage , not hit a stationary object and break it , really how much power does it take to flick someone in the eye or slap them in the balls and yet they go down just the same .
but if all you have is a shoot gun ''over committed power'' or a machine gun '' chain punches '' then I can see there being mental stress as you are desperate to make the same tool work in every situation .
I remember when I first started sparring Thai fighters there power scared the hell out of me , until I developed the ability to use the sharp parts of my body to intercept or obstruct there lines of attack , then my whole psychology changed I looked forward to them throwing all there power at me , I just put up a elbow or the point of my knee they run into it and down they go in pain .
or I just slip out of there range and hit them on there recovery since generating huge power requires a little more recovery .
it is all in how you look at things . and how you train things , that being said I have eaten shin kicks to the head and thigh and been dropped flat on my back , but I chalk it up to training experiences .

joy
said [[[ I agree with Ernie on this one ]]] I think I will frame this one :D :D

Phenix

10-22-2003, 08:02 AM

Erni,

I used to feel the same way before I understood how to control distance , all the power in the world is only useful at the end of it's action , the head of the snake , the last 7 inches of a weapon and only at the apex of the power line. all you need to be is and inch or so away and all that power is empty ,or one inch in and you smoother the power , or put up a bone on bone obstruction and the power breaks itself becomes it's on worse enemy. if you don't have a efficient delivery system '' footwork '' the power is also useless , --E

True.

what is functional power in combat anyway , the ability to hit aggressive person in motion while you are in motion and inflict damage , not hit a stationary object and break it ,

really how much power does it take to flick someone in the eye or slap them in the balls and yet they go down just the same . -E

Certainly, theoriticlly it is true.
However, If one doesn't have the capabilities of focus or breaking in static. then chances is one has not know how to focus the power and the experience of align the power and releasing.

but if all you have is a shoot gun ''over committed power'' or a machine gun '' chain punches '' then I can see there being mental stress as you are desperate to make the same tool work in every situation . ---E

Because it is KO match. so, no one knows how powerfull other will attack. Because those who experience in breaking has a habit and always focus thier power so that it is inches behind the moving target. Thus, it is not that simple to be one inch away from its full release power and taking a hit is not a fun thing. Fighting a person who's skill is in somewhat same level is no fun.

I remember when I first started sparring Thai fighters there power scared the hell out of me , until I developed the ability to use the sharp parts of my body to intercept or obstruct there lines of attack , then my whole psychology changed I looked forward to them throwing all there power at me , I just put up a elbow or the point of my knee they run into it and down they go in pain . ---E

Great tatic.
But, those in asia use to train with banana tree and glinding bottle. Thus, the momentum might no stop because one doesn't feel that pain....

or I just slip out of there range and hit them on there recovery since generating huge power requires a little more recovery . --E

This hold true.
until I met someone who never need recovery because every switching of leg is a power generation and distance/position aligment.

it is all in how you look at things . and how you train things , that being said I have eaten shin kicks to the head and thigh and been dropped flat on my back , but I chalk it up to training experiences . --E

True.
Where is your mighty Bong leg and Tan Sau or Bo Bai while eaten those? :D
Thus, my point is things are relative. what we see can be done might not that simple in the match.
As in the TV said, Don't try it at home. :D

Ernie

10-22-2003, 08:38 AM

hendrik
everything has a counter my friend ,

]]]Certainly, theoriticlly it is true.
However, If one doesn't have the capabilities of focus or breaking in static. then chances is one has not know how to focus the power and the experience of align the power and releasing.[[[

power dvelopment and being able to release your power is important , but i prefer balanced power , power that doesn't make you freeze in a stance or cause you to sacrfice balance and mobility, or worse emotional commitment , to use all your power and miss or have the guy just take it like nothing is very mentally draining .
but to be able to express power in a '' i don't care kind of way '' doesn't mess your mind up you just keep flowing if you miss or hit .
manny people who train one shot one kill become obseed in trying to force the idea and get sloppy , they tend to lack patience

]]]Certainly, theoriticlly it is true.
However, If one doesn't have the capabilities of focus or breaking in static. then chances is one has not know how to focus the power and the experience of align the power and releasing.[[[

if your body and mind are flowing ,and you have balance in your action and delievery the power is there . i have never really seen any real use for breaking static things beyond conditioning , the reality is the time is better spent dialing into a moving target , just my 2 cents

]]]Because it is KO match. so, no one knows how powerfull other will attack. Because those who experience in breaking has a habit and always focus thier power so that it is inches behind the moving target. Thus, it is not that simple to be one inch away from its full release power and taking a hit is not a fun thing. Fighting a person who's skill is in somewhat same level is no fun.
]]]

it always sucks to fight some one of similar skill level , nothing is clean and everything hurts
:D

]]]Great tatic.
But, those in asia use to train with banana tree and glinding bottle. Thus, the momentum might no stop because one doesn't feel that pain.... ]]]

the guys i train with still go to thai land to train and though there legs '' thigh and calf '' are very dead to pain the bone on bone still causes the big nasty swelling on the chin and if the first one doesn't get them the second or third one will just have to take your time and not get greedy , i have also spent some time banging chins when i learned my kicks prior to wing chun .

[[This hold true.
until I met someone who never need recovery because every switching of leg is a power generation and distance/position aligment.]]]

i stride for this in my own training and have friends at this level but they are profighters and you are correct they can walk right through me .
they have very few holes in there action , and there balance is incredible

]]]True.
Where is your mighty Bong leg and Tan Sau or Bo Bai while eaten those? [[[
i'll leave those for the others to play with i trust my foot work and distance much more

:D :D
fun chatting but off to work be well

Phenix

10-22-2003, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
hendrik
everything has a counter my friend ,

Erni,

Yap, I agree.

Sun Tzu Said:

34. The five elements (water, fire, wood, metal, earth) are not always equally predominant; the four seasons make way for each other in turn. There are short days and long; the moon has its periods of waning and waxing.

And, in five elements : There are : give birth, against, neutralize, transformation ---------- 4 types of manual ..... nothing fixed.. water has no shape. So does WCK.

Ernie

10-22-2003, 09:09 AM

phenix
Yap, I agree.

Sun Tzu Said:

34. The five elements (water, fire, wood, metal, earth) are not always equally predominant; the four seasons make way for each other in turn. There are short days and long; the moon has its periods of waning and waxing.

And, in five elements : There are : give birth, against, neutralize, transformation ---------- 4 types of manual ..... nothing fixed.. water has no shape. So does WCK.

funny you use that quote they way gary teachs wing chun is based on that , in skill development , and dealing with energy , and tactics .
now i really got to go peace

Phenix

10-22-2003, 12:10 PM

Ernie,

DRACULA and PHOENIX's similarity is they both die and reborn again and again and again and again ... for centuries... the living dead. ...:D

PaulH

10-22-2003, 12:31 PM

As much as I enjoyed the lively dialogues of the last two pages, Hendrik, It's only a blood sucking thing to ask you die hards to get on this thread - the MK book (And no it's not mortal combat! Ha! Ha!). Be nice!

Mike Mathews

10-22-2003, 04:16 PM

To get a good idea of what Hung Fa Yi is all about I suggest that those interested buy the book and attend the seminar coming up in November. Reading the book and then putting it into reference with hands on experience should allow one to form an educated decision.

Sincerely,

Mike

Savi

10-22-2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Mike Mathews
To get a good idea of what Hung Fa Yi is all about I suggest that those interested buy the book and attend the seminar coming up in November. Reading the book and then putting it into reference with hands on experience should allow one to form an educated decision.

Sincerely,

Mike Sisuk Mike! It's good to see you on the forum here! Good advice, the more ways one can approach a subject of study, the more well rounded one can become. The book certainly serves up a heavy amount of detail in combat, health and philosophy; what better way to supplement the reading with hands on experience?

Cheers!
-Savi.

canglong

10-22-2003, 05:16 PM

originally posted by McKind13
Seeing a person Chi Sao, apply techniques or spar can tell loads about them, their art and the way it is taught/ they have learned it in there kwoon. Yet this is only part of the big picture which we originally started the discussion with. A person capable of demonstrating proper chi sau does not necassarily equate to a person that fully understands all the complexities of chis sau and how to communicate that understanding to others, while a person with a complete understanding of those complexities is more equipped to communicate them to others, properly apply chi sau methods and recognize them when they see them in practice as well as when they hear or read them. A persons ability to practice, execute techniques, teach, or verbally convey their understanding of the principles and concepts of wing chun will no doubt vary but a practicing Sifu would hopefully be better equipped in all these different phases than most and that is the point I got from Keng Cheng's post.

JohnL

10-23-2003, 01:21 PM

The Book "Mastering Kung Fu" is an original work by three masters of the art. I am a student of one of the masters, Meng Sifu, and take great pride in what was presented and the content of the work. I know that the information in the book represents 10 years of research and study. I hope all practitioners of Wing Chun Kung Fu take the time to read the book and enjoy the experience.

During the past three years I have had a paradigm shift in my life due to my undertaking the study of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. I hope that ALL of my Kung Fu brothers and sisters find an uplifting and rewarding experience as they study and grow in their art.

JohnL

KPM

10-24-2003, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by JohnL
The Book "Mastering Kung Fu" is an original work by three masters of the art. I am a student of one of the masters, Meng Sifu, and take great pride in what was presented and the content of the work. I know that the information in the book represents 10 years of research and study. I hope all practitioners of Wing Chun Kung Fu take the time to read the book and enjoy the experience.

JohnL

----So you mean that HFY is a martial art that can be "mastered" in only about 4 years of training? If I recall, Benny Meng has only been learning it for 5 years at most.

Keith

JohnL

10-24-2003, 05:36 AM

Kieth,

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chung is a martial Art. Martial Arts are a way of life, you study, work, practice, and enjoy the experience. At some time and space you may master the art. However, In my opion that is not the prime objective. I am enjoying the experience and hope that you are enjoying your experience in your art.

JohnL

reneritchie

10-24-2003, 07:47 AM

For some golf is a way of life. For some business is. Look how much 'a way of life' Harry Knowles has turned an internet movie site into.

Martial arts are what we allow them to be, no more, no less. For some nothing, for others an occasional hobby, for others a dedicated pursuit, for others a career, for yet others an obsession bordering on the unhealthy. But we bring that to them, rather than vice versa, and more than likely, if martial arts weren't filling whatever need they felt in their lives, something else would (football, arts and crafts, volunteer work, etc.)

The idea of martial arts as 'kung fu life' is recent thing, both a luxury and burden of the late 20th century where people could afford to pursue MA outside of direct need and those with the skill could make some form of career out of it.

This doesn't make it good or bad -- some will find it lets them thrive while others feel its constricting -- but it shouldn't be confused for 'the way things are meant to be'.

Martial family is much like real-life family, warm and enabling, disfunctional and disabling, close-knit and estranged, can help you out of trouble, or into it, etc.

But individuals are individuals, and as long as everyone remembers that, remembers to think for themselves, to question and consider and take responsibility for their own actions, to be strong individually within a strong collective, things can work out well.

Keng Geng

10-24-2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by KPM
So you mean that HFY is a martial art that can be "mastered" in only about 4 years of training? Good point... mastership of any discipline does not occur in 4 years.

reneritchie

10-24-2003, 09:33 AM

Benny has several factors working to his advantage. He has a prior foundation in Jiu Wan and Moy Yat WCK, he is used to long-distance-learning and what it entails, he has many students to work(out) with, HFY seems to match very closely the type of thinking he enjoys.

Savi

10-24-2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by KPM
----So you mean that HFY is a martial art that can be "mastered" in only about 4 years of training? If I recall, Benny Meng has only been learning it for 5 years at most.

Keith No Keith, it is not that anyone can master something like a martial art in just four years. Granted Master Meng and Master Loewenhagen are already certified masters in their previous Wing Chun training. For them, training HFY is very much on an excellerated level due to the mindset & skills they already bring to the table.

Keep in mind there is a difference between completing something and mastering something.

Completing Wing Chun (for example) from beginning to end could be considered one journey, but mastering Wing Chun will take many journeys through the system, from beginning to end and back again repeatedly. Someone like Grandmaster Gee could definitely teach the complete HFY system to someone in a 4 year timeframe, but the dedication and commitment required to do such a thing can only be found in the most serious of students who can afford it in all aspects (time, energy, etc...).

So, I do not think it was my Sisuk John's intention to give anyone that impression; that mastering HFY can be done in 4 years.

PaulH

10-24-2003, 01:53 PM

Hi Savi,

I'm still reading the book, but if it takes about 4 years to complete your system, is this kind of long to train the troops to fight the Chin quickly? How much time did it actually take to train the troops in those days then against the professional Chin soldiers?

Regards,

PH

Savi

10-24-2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hi Savi,

I'm still reading the book, but if it takes about 4 years to complete your system, is this kind of long to train the troops to fight the Chin quickly? How much time did it actually take to train the troops in those days then against the professional Chin soldiers?

Regards,

PH Paul, good question. I am of the understanding that troops were trained specific strategy and tactic focused around the enemies at hand. If there was an army force trained/training a particular style, then the HFY troops were training the counters to it. Their training was driven by specific purpose and intent, thus the way they trained was in accordance to their survival and that reality. Also at that point in time, troops were not ill-experienced. They came from previously trained styles, they were military men, revolutionaries and warriors. They weren't neccesarily just 'a band of farmers and common folk' as others might perceive.

Back when HFY was being used on the field, the dummy and the weapons were trained upfront alongside open-hand application and footwork at the SNT level training. This may have been due to the immediate presence of weapons in combat, but by HFY oral tradition the Gwan and the Do were already in existence before Wing/Weng Chun came about, and that they weren't added to the system after its initial birth. Weapons are also a reality of warfare, they have to be trained upfront.

In short, combat effectiveness is already addressed by the SNT level - not after completion of the system. One thing you have to keep in mind is that HFY is not just a combat fighting system. It is just as deep in its Hei Gung training as it is in its Chan philosophy studies. The combat side is only one aspect of HFY.

PaulH

10-24-2003, 02:42 PM

Thank you, Savi. While I understand the important control of time and space as you mentioned in the SLT level to negate the opponent's speed and strength, how do you use this HFY formula against armed soldiers. My impression is that the formula is designed more for open hand combat.

Regards,

PH

duende

10-24-2003, 03:13 PM

Paul,

The whole essence of the HFY formula is that it is the foundation and kernel to a truly organic system. Everything we do employs the forumla. From our SNT to our wooden Dummy forms to CK and BG.

So yes... our weapons forms adhere to the formula.

Alex

PaulH

10-24-2003, 03:16 PM

Thanks, Alex. Look forward to more info on this in the future.

Regards,

PH

akalish

11-08-2003, 04:26 PM

Paul (and others),

Very good points and questions. I will venture a few comments as well (please keep in mind that I am no expert).

Originally posted by PaulH
Hi Savi,

I'm still reading the book, but if it takes about 4 years to complete your system, is this kind of long to train the troops to fight the Chin quickly? How much time did it actually take to train the troops in those days then against the professional Chin soldiers?

Regards,

PH

I would agree that a 4 year training program for troops is far too long (the war would be over, LOL). Comments have been made in prior threads about such factors as the amount of time per day that the troops spent training as well as the levels of prior experience that these soldiers brought with them. While these are perfectly valid points, I think that there are other significant considerations as well:

1) To try to put the "4 year" assessment in context, I believe that this is referring to being taught all aspects of the HFY system to a "reasonable" level of proficiency (I will add my comments on "mastery" in a later post). As others have stated, this would include combat, health, and Chan. My understanding is that when troops were trained in HFY combat, it was done in such a way that got them "up and running" quickly in terms of being able to fight. From what I have seen of HFY, all main components of hand-to-hand fighting applications are trained at the SNT and CK levels (including body mechanics, concepts, tactics, and strategies for hands, body, and footwork). I can't confirm this of course, but I would assume that aspects such as biu ji and the deeper Chan core of HFY were not taught to the troops as a rule.

2) In HFY, the idea of getting a full spectrum of essential combat tools right away is stressed. For example, HFY stances and footwork are taught immediately at the SNT level, as opposed to later in CK as some lineages teach. This would also enable combat troops sooner.

3) Lastly, I believe that there are some "accelerated" (I hesitate to use the term "short cut") methodologies that get the key points across without all the details (for example, saam jin bo training in chum kiu). Again, this was done to get the practitioner to a reasonably proficient level as soon as possible. Other more knowledgeable HFY members could probable correct me here.

After all this rambling (LOL), I am afraid that I must say that I do not know how long it actually took to train those troops (I am old but not that old). Rather, I have seen how some of the above aspects of HFY have helped me fight sooner that what I and others with whom I have spoken have experienced in previous wing chun learning. Not that this is good or bad, just my observation based on experience.

Andy

PaulH

11-09-2003, 12:43 AM

Thank you for your time, Andy. The topic is somewhat interesting to me. I only raise up the question because I have read before an interesting military manual by a colorful Vietnamese General who trained troops in a very short time and successfully burned down the whole Mongolian naval fleet as well as repelled the great Mongolian invasion in Viet Nam a long time ago. He trained different things mostly on the use of cannons, hooking spears against elephants, archer tactics, etc. with very little emphasis on hand combat beside just some basic native Karate-like martial art. If you visited the Sai Gon Harbor you may still see his statue with his Biu fingers pointing across the river. I have not figured out whether he learn Biu Gee yet at that time! Ha! Ha! Nice chatting with you.

Regards,

PH

akalish

11-09-2003, 07:09 PM

Paul,

Very interesting story about the vietnamese general. Training in a short time can indeed be effective if you focus on what is appropriate and important in the type of combat that you are dealing with. Sounds like he did a great job of leadership and assessing what was needed. Are there any on-line references to this general? (It does sound like interesting reading.)

Any thoughts on what qualities of a training approach would enable quick combat skill development? For example, training should be easy to teach and easy to retain. An example of this is common body structures, meaning that if you need to learn 20 different hand structures, it is going to really take some time to learn and retain it all well enough to use it in combat. Of course, perhaps discussion of this topic should be done in a separate thread so as not to hijack this one..

Also, I just wanted to add a "thank YOU". Not just for your time but for for your courtesy. I tend not to post too frequently here because of all the flaming, personal agendas, false fronts, interpersonal grudges, et cetera. So many people only want you to post something so that they can counter it, shoot holes in it, or dismiss it. I am looking forward to reading any future posts on aspects of your kung fu as well. Best wishes...

Andy

PaulH

11-09-2003, 11:59 PM

Hi Andy,

The general's name is Tran Hung Dao. I read his military training manual in Vietnamese so I guess you will have to wait for the Matrix universal translator to come around first. Ha! Ha!

Anyway I like to post a brief dramatic moment of the despair of the young Vietnamese King and the resolute general in the face of certain destruction of the 3rd Mongolian Invasion. Here is a brief excerp I found on the net.

'At the close of 1284, the Mongols crossed the frontier. The Vietnamese force, totalling a mere of 200,000 men, was unable to withstand the first onslaught. Tran Hung Dao ordered the evacuation of the capital and was asked by the king: "The enemy is so strong that a protracted war might bring terrible destruction down upon the people. Wouldn't it be better-to lay down our arm to save the population?" The general answered: "I understand Your Majesty's humane feelings perfectly, but what would become of our country ancestors' land, and of our forefather's temples? If you want to surrender, please have my head cut off first". '

You can find more details at this site
http://www.viettouch.com/hist/tranhungdao/

This website's work is still in progress so there is no mention of the great skillful destruction of the whole Mongolian Naval Fleet yet. You can see his portrait there too.

Regards,

PH

P.S. I did a little more research and find this account of the Tran Hung Dao's great naval victory in the annals of military conflict. I hope my ancestors can now rest in peace. OM!

http://www.vietmedia.com/history/?L=tranhungdao.html

Da_Moose

11-10-2003, 10:25 AM

Since we are discussing troop training time and such, what exactly are we referring to in their training? Are we referring to the troops training in weapons since they were expected to fight in a short amount of time? If so, which weapons, the spear/pole, the butterfly swords? If just hand to hand training, did they get specific SNT and WC training only, or did they get trained in all ranges of combat, learning some basics based on the HFY formula? I don't know if this has been brought up in the thread or not yet, but it seems relevant. Depending on how/what the troops were taught, they might have been taught different aspects of the system as well (Chan, Hei Gung, Strategies).

Steve

akalish

11-12-2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Da_Moose
Since we are discussing troop training time and such, what exactly are we referring to in their training? Are we referring to the troops training in weapons since they were expected to fight in a short amount of time? If so, which weapons, the spear/pole, the butterfly swords? If just hand to hand training, did they get specific SNT and WC training only, or did they get trained in all ranges of combat, learning some basics based on the HFY formula? I don't know if this has been brought up in the thread or not yet, but it seems relevant. Depending on how/what the troops were taught, they might have been taught different aspects of the system as well (Chan, Hei Gung, Strategies).

Steve

Steve,

Referring solely to HFY oral legend/history, I believe that for troops, the weapons (knives, pole) were trained up front right along with the hands. Decades later, more covert anti-Qing activities (one-on-one fighting?) may have involved more hand training first, but maybe not.

I agree that the other aspects of the system (Chan, health, et cetera) may have been taught to certain troops to certain levels. However, my point was that their main focus was on the reality of fighting. Other aspects came as second-order components of the system.

ajk

Da_Moose

11-13-2003, 08:02 AM

Hey Andy,

I also agree that weapons were probably trained first, especially having heard Sifu mention this before, as well as the reality of fighting. I was also wondering about something else he has mentioned as a comparison regarding the HFY. Maybe I should have mentioned this in my last post. I recall he described the HFY as the 'Special Forces' of sorts of Shaolin. So maybe they did train some troops in hand to hand exclusively for covert ops situations. Maybe the strategies the society used evolved with the advent of HFY? Instead of open warfare, as mentioned in MKF, where they got their butts kicked due to larger numbers against smaller, they changed to guerilla and covert warfare?

Hope to see you at the seminar this weekend.

Steve

JohnL

11-13-2003, 10:14 AM

Hey Moose!

The use of hand to hand combat would fit HFY like a glove. The fact of the matter is that after loosing the war the revolutionest continued fighting a hit and run battle with the Ching. This type of warfare has been the method used by revolutionest throughout history. the american idians, the colonest, the french (WWII), and even the Iraq's have had better success in this type of warfare than the conventional army versus army campaigns.

JohnL

anerlich

11-13-2003, 02:59 PM

It's also worth pointing out that the mings and indians both failed ultimately. You could argue about the French, they had a lot of help. Iraq? Too soon to tell.

Vietnam was the one you should be using for your poster child.

Equating HFY and Special Forces? A marketing masterstroke, that'll get the punters in.

duende

11-13-2003, 05:24 PM

Actually, it was the common cold (brought by the Spaniards) and the smallpox infested blankets given to them that did the indians in.

Many American Indian tribes actually never surrendered... and still live on the same land they always did... Take the Yaqui's in AZ for example.

But besides all that.... I don't see how a polite discussion between a few MA's can be considered HFY marketing. And whatever point there may have been to your post is lost in your negative hang-ups.

Grendel.... nice profile... Too bad there's not a tree named Bonus Aires...

anerlich

11-13-2003, 06:06 PM

I don't see how a polite discussion between a few MA's can be considered HFY marketing.

"Polite discussion"? Must be another thread.

Look, I come from a lineage which has had a long history of shameless marketing. I accept it for what it is. Just check out any Paladin Press or TRS video blurb, or for that matter most American MA sites.

"Special Forces Wing Chun" - from a pure marketing POV this would be a sure attention getter. For chrissake get off your high horse and get a sense of humour.

And whatever point there may have been to your post is lost in your negative hang-ups

There's a psychological phenomenon called "projection". And a saying about pots and kettles.

yuanfen

11-13-2003, 06:18 PM

Grendel asks:but french (WWII), are you kidding?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(Of Course- Claude Rains was rounding up the usual suspects in Casablanca wasn't he? And Paul Henreid(?) and Ingrid Bergman were engaging in "gorilla" warfare in Nick's cafe?--oops- bad history maybe?))
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Duende sez:Actually, it was the common cold (brought by the Spaniards) and the smallpox infested blankets given to them that did the indians in.

Many American Indian tribes actually never surrendered... and still live on the same land they always did... Take the Yaqui's in AZ for example.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Dont want to go too far afield---Actually somewhat/considerably more complicated than that...introduction of respiratory diseases and small pox and other health disasters played their role....... but in the forced march of Indian removal (to Oklahoma)
my wifes's tribe lost almost half their full blood population in that disaster... and the Spaniards were not too kind in Florida before that....
the creation of the resevations, the forced allotments---it's a complicated story. Technology played a devastating role--- In the Battle of Horsehoe Bend the large numbers of Creeks killed were mostly felled by bullets- while the few US troops had mostly arrows in them. The Yaqui story is also more complicated... the main home is around Rio Yaqui in Mexico but much migration- partly the result of conflicts with Mexican authorities and troops - the anti tribal side effects of the Mexican revolution.
The Yaquis in Arizona(Old. New Pascua, Barrio Libre, Guadalupe etc) were north of the border at the time of the Gadsden purchase. They were not recognized as a tribe in the US till special legislation in the 70s brought about recogbition. My late wife and i also worked for recognition in supporting the Udall and De Concini bills. We were friends of the then Yaqui chairman Anselmo Valenzuela. The impact of social forces has been devastating for tribal (not just yaquis) health- quite shortened average life spans--stress related alcoholism, the impact of diabetes partly triggered by changes in nutrition. ""History" is not a simple matter whether its the Ming, Ching, Yaquis, Irish and any others.Oversimplification of "history" unfortunately is quite easy))

Mike Mathews

11-13-2003, 08:33 PM

Andy Kalish Posted:
Referring solely to HFY oral legend/history, I believe that for troops, the weapons (knives, pole) were trained up front right along with the hands. Decades later, more covert anti-Qing activities (one-on-one fighting?) may have involved more hand training first, but maybe not.

Andy,

Taking into consideration the situation of the time it would make sense to me that there was a need to learn weapons at a very early stage of training.

Regards,

Mike

anerlich

11-14-2003, 09:06 PM

Open to interpretation I guess, but I don't see them running the Chinese or Taipei governments.

Haven't seen many US presidents dressed in buckskins and war bonnets either.

Don't misunderstand me, the underdog, guerilla and revolutionary sometimes win. Lenin, Mao Tse-Tung (not a Ming AFAIK), Ho Chi Minh, etc.

FWIW, IMO it's hardly a big jump to assume that soldiers would start with weapons. Only an idiot would participate in infantry warfare barehanded. The pedagogy of teaching open hands first may have begun once the thing went underground, or was enhanced/polluted by spiritual, revolutionary, cultist or other motives, inlcluding the teacher not getting brained or sliced by overeager students or traitors/double agents, or as a mechanism to keep students subservient for longer before they could actually be a real danger to anyone..

This all sounds pretty much like speculation by all concerned. Any hard proof either way?

anerlich

11-15-2003, 10:46 PM

Jeez, I misspelt "Mings" and everything. No one want to have a go? Unlike some, I got big shoulders.

BTW the copy of "Mastering Kung Fu" I ordered from Amazon in mid-October finally shipped from the US today. The delay was in Amazon getting the book from the publisher to ship. If anyone else outside the US is sweating on an order, that should give you an indication re waiting time perhaps.

The copy of "Rickson Gracie: Choke" I orgder at the same time arrived on Friday. So I guess I'll be waiting another three weeks approx.

yuanfen

11-16-2003, 08:53 AM

3 tries at answering vanished into cyberspace- wrong buttonspushed possibly-- but some notes on what Anerlich sez:
Open to interpretation I guess, but I don't see them running the Chinese or Taipei governments.

((They are but it's a secret. Mao and Chiang had a secret handshake when Sun Yat Sen was alive.. later they hada code using chopstick motions in their pictures:-))

Haven't seen many US presidents dressed in buckskins and war bonnets either.

((It's a secret too. Indians took over the White House. Proof? there is that picture of a smiling Calvin Cooloidge with a Plains Indian war bonnet on))

Don't misunderstand me, the underdog, guerilla and revolutionary sometimes win. Lenin, Mao Tse-Tung (not a Ming AFAIK), Ho Chi Minh, etc.

((They do- Dienbienphu. Sometimes the wins are in limited objectives including survival. One of the proprtionately expensive guerilla warfares the US has faced in the past was with some of the Florida Seminoles---those who refused to move to Oklahoma
in the 1830s.
A small band somrtimes only 200 held off the US Cavalry in South Florida. The nucleus later by population growth are the Florida Seminoles today. Those who moved are in Oklahoma.
Alsoa group of Cheyenes escaped from Oklahoma and foughta guerrila campaign to return to their old area in Wyoming- where they(the Northern Cheyennes) are today.

On the Qing penetration and takeover---one of the best books is the large two volume work by Wakeman on The Great Adventure-
I forget the exact title---should be there in google search.
The Wakeman book is pretty good in portraying the resistance to
the Qing. In the south it was quite disorganized and diverse.
There were peasants . martial artists, local hoods, betrayals, food riots, anti tax protests. And not always clearly good guys versus bad guys.The literati were originally often pro Ming... but many switched out of convenience as literati do.

Of course battlefields produce weapons... but guerillas are used to using what is available --- because they may not have the same kind of factories and production.
Training of the hands and weapons--- sometimes chicken and egg questions-which came first- can be sometimes one sometimes another. Some of the northern styles- even Chen has moves that are outgrowth of the spear- but the relationship in some southern styles including wing chun appear to be different...
yes we can use weapons but lets first train ourselves and the hands-kind of thinking.

FWIW, IMO it's hardly a big jump to assume that soldiers would start with weapons. Only an idiot would participate in infantry warfare barehanded. The pedagogy of teaching open hands first may have begun once the thing went underground,