FALUN GONG/Falun Dafa [Archive] - Page 3

Juna

04-22-2006, 04:07 AM

On April 20, the same day that U.S. President George W. Bush spoke with Chinese leader Hu Jintao, two key sources that revealed the live harvesting of Falun Dafa practitioners' organs for profit in the Sujiatun Concentration Camp spoke publicly at McPherson Square. At a press conference attended by hundreds of people, they testified about the CCP harvesting organs from living Falun Dafa practitioners. Below is the full text of Peter's statement:

I am only a common journalist, and The Epoch Times and I first reported together the facts about harvesting organs from living Falun Dafa practitioners in the Liaoning Provincial Thrombosis Hospital of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine.

I believed originally that through exposing this evil crime, it can be stopped, those who sinned in history can be punished, and the detained Falun Dafa practitioners can be released so that their lives can be saved. This is a most tragic, inhumane crime.

I am quite upset that the CCP has transferred all Falun Dafa practitioners detained in Sujiatun and destroyed the evidence. The CCP has once again deceived the international community and the media, and it has seduced the international community with economic profit, threatening all witnesses, agencies and countries that wish to expose the facts about the CCP's harvesting of organs from living Falun Gong practitioners.

Today is the day that Hu is meeting with Bush, and it is the moment when the global media and the world's people are paying attention to China. I chose to stand out on this day publicly, to condemn the CCP's crimes at Sujiatun. I have no regard for my own life or death. I want to use my life as evidence to expose the sins of the CCP in harvesting organs from living Falun Gong practitioners.

I know the CCP will not leave me alone since I have reported this genuine situation, but I am still willing to stand out and risk my life in order to reveal these facts about the persecution. At the same time, I want to tell everyone, as I have repeatedly told you, that the crimes at Sujiatun are only the tip of the iceberg in the nation-wide persecution. Stealing and selling organs from Falun Gong practitioners and other prisoners is happening in labor camps all over the country.

My reporting the crimes at Sujiatun was in hope of providing ideas to help investigate other labor camps, and calling on witnesses like Annie, who know such information, to bravely step forward. Step forward! I invite all of you to bravely step forward and testify about the crimes of the CCP.

Before and after 2000, I selectively contacted some people in China with different careers and societal backgrounds to collect information from different angles, which helped me gain new understandings of the Chinese government's statements, actions, and current situation.

Peter at the press conference on McPherson Square, 4-26-06. (The Epoch Times)In 2003, when the SARS epidemic was widespread in China, I traveled from Hong Kong, at the south end of the country, to Heilongjiang Province, at the north end, and witnessed the corruption and dirtiness of the CCP system. I contacted many officials in Shenyang City, Liaoning Province. Their ways of deceit, greed, illegal behavior are beyond the imagination and shockingly evil. The new and old policies that the Central Government has established, the government agencies, the Court system, and the power that is bestowed by the people are all sacrificed when these officials extort people's money. When I contacted these officials, I realized for the first time that an underground camp existed at Sujiatun.

However, it is very difficult to investigate a secret location in such a big city, and to prove its existence. In the past three years, I have consumed large amounts of manpower, material supplies, and financial resources, but have finally found this facility in Sujiatun, where many Falun Dafa practitioners were detained, and their cornea, organs, and bone marrow harvested live, and then their bodies cremated. Even their hair is made into wigs, and their skin and body fat is sold. The remainder of their bodies is then cremated to destroy all evidence. Ladies and gentlemen, can you believe that such crimes are still underway in other regions in China?

I have collected information from websites of organ transplant centers in Tianjin City and Shenyang City in China. The advertising on these sites is aimed at attracting foreign patients to undergo live organ transplant operations in China, providing large quantities of organs.

On the English version of the website of the China International Transplant Network Assistance Center (CITNAC), it is posted that it only takes one week to one month to find a kidney match. Meanwhile in the United States, the waiting period is two years or longer. We all know that kidneys and other organs are very hard to keep fresh, with a window of only 24-48 hours for a kidney, and even shorter for a heart. It is clearly shown on the Tianjin City Eastern Organ Transplant Center website that transplant procedures have largely increased in frequency since 2001.

Some organ transplant experts have expressed that in order to maintain such a quick process of organ matching between patients and donors, there must be an underground channel of live organs existing in the Shenyang City region. Many doctors and nurses who answered the phones in the hospitals and transplant centers in Beijing and Shenyang Cities, admitted openly that the donors are all alive and very healthy, and they even directly admitted that they are Falun Gong practitioners. When specifically asked more questions, they would not talk on the phone, saying that it is a sensitive topic, and "Let us talk after you arrive here."

Informants Annie and Peter in Washington DC on April 20. Their speeches were their first public testimony about large-scale organ harvesting atrocities in China. (The Epoch Times)Currently there are many flyers posted on the electricity poles about kidney or other organ transplants, and many advertisements appear on the Internet from Transplant Hospitals and Centers in China. China has become a large organ transplant country. The international community has learned that if one needs an organ transplant quickly, one need to go to China, where such channels exist.

This crime is committed by a network of corporations and participants who steal and sell Falun Gong practitioners' organs. It involves guards in the labor camps, surgeons, nurses, the government officials of the public health system, police officials, central government officials, black market organ traders and overseas organ transplant traders. It is an enormous crime beyond our imagination.

Ms. Annie's ex-husband is a late-stage cancer patient now, and is receiving chemotherapy in a hospital in Canada. He tried to escape China, and did not want to join in the crime of harvesting Falun Gong practitioners' organs, and wanted to quit. He then was warned and threatened. His wife was stabbed deeply on the left side of her stomach when she tried to protect him. He is an orphan of a CCP hero. He confessed to his wife, burned five deep marks onto his arm, and told her all of his secrets. Annie stepped forward to help pay back her ex-husband's sins.

More than one doctor and employee involved in the Sujiatun organ transplant operations have testified that the organs are all harvested from living Falun Gong practitioners.

The CCP's persecution policy on Falun Gong practitioners is that killing is counted as nothing, and that there is no need to verify identities.

I have received many anonymous calls on my cell phone, including some from my previous colleagues and bosses, wishing that I would stop revealing what I have found, so that it could go from being a big incident to a small one, and then from a small one to nothing. I do hope my investigation is a mistake. But even if there is only a one percent possibility that it is true, we should step forward to expose it, and to stop such crimes, crimes that should not be accepted by anyone.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-22/40693.html

ccp is really more evil than Nazi.

chud

04-22-2006, 08:32 AM

The Catholic church isn't really oppressed at all regardless of what you might think.

If the Catholic Church isn't oppressed in China then why was Cardinal Kung in prison for 30 years? Why are other priests and bishops currently in prison?

SanHeChuan

04-22-2006, 11:08 AM

read the whole article...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

It isn't a clean fit into the Cult box.

I know that I'd prefere to not have to rely on anyone for anything, but that doesn't make it so.

I don't have high regard for any religous group, so why should this one be denied?

They are non-violent, losely orginized, and have a good message.

Catholics have the Pope, Budists the Dali Lama.

Sure some or many of thier teachings my not fit our version of truth, and some are a little icky, but so what? They still sound better than Scientologist ;) :D
Any "religion" sounds stupid when your not apart of it.

The whole slow change through capatilism is a good idea, because no one want's to get into a fight with the bigest kid at school. If the kid has an internal change of heart though, all the better.

Banjos_dad

04-22-2006, 12:23 PM

1. how does the falun gong material presented in this thread benefit anyone. and-
2. if this thread is so tedious and depressing, what will it be like when a gonger is encountered in real life. :eek:

on a lighter note:

The incident occured right after Bush urged Hu to allow Chinese to 'speak freely'. The woman, had a temporary pass with a big 'T' on it, also unfurled a yellow 'Falun Gong' banner.

Pres Bush: '...and in closing, i can only heartily encourage the Chinese people to speak their desires, and let their hopes and ambitions be known. I exhort you to rise up in your individuality, and speak freely!!"

President Hu (to himself): "d'ohhH!!!"

^** disclaimer ** the above dialogue was embellished and does not reflect historical events in any way... b_d)

lkfmdc

04-22-2006, 01:11 PM

Only ignorant and knee jerk reaction liberals welcome Falun Gong... because when the facts are revealed, people start finding out it is nothing more than a cult

Since China is a communist government with a history of repression, people automatically assume they are in the wrong, Falun Dafa is one of the exceptions

A group where once you start practicing it, you seem to wake up in the middle of the night, take a meat clever to family members, ie KILL them would be considered pretty dangerous (unless you are a cult member spreading the propoganda line and quoting the Rev Moon's newspaper)

A group in which a family member of a convert tries to leave, only to be kidnapped and held against their will by the group is pretty much the definition of a dangerous cult

Where ever Falun Dafa has appeared, the same things have happened, and authorities we don't consider autocratic have had similar responses to them...

Don't be fooled by the Falun propoganda

CaptinPickAxe

04-22-2006, 01:46 PM

Juna,
You have done nothing but bump your gums on some tired old FG BS. Save your long winded dialog and copy and paste jobs for Falun Gong forums. The rest of the world only accepts Falun Gong because they don't know the evils and backwards logic it embodies. Don't make me dig up the dirt on this nefarious cult.

I don't understand why people are tricked into swallowing the insane lies of the Falun Dafa. I guess like-minded people with severe mental disorders should flock together. It makes it easier to round up these nut jobs and put them were the belong...

in an institution.

P.s. The Dafa claims to have been visited by aliens. What do you think of most people who claim to have close encounters of the third kind?

SanHeChuan

04-22-2006, 01:46 PM

IKFMDC

Your vague anicdotes about FG cultism is what's hardly convincing. Where's the proof that the meat cleaver guy was a FG, and since when does one crazy make a religion a cult. I have yet to read anything about FG kidnapping, and what I have read would lead me to believe that this is not a practiced by mainstream FG'ers (see my last post).

Your reaction seems to be the knee jerk one. Where are the links to these stories so we can make our own informed discsions.

CaptinPickAxe

Please dig up all your dirt so that the rest of us can see from where you draw your conclusions. Depending on how you interpert things you could say Christian and their ilk have claimed to be visited by aliens.

Hieronim

04-22-2006, 02:01 PM

Falum Gong = Atlantis.

Juna

04-22-2006, 02:22 PM

The whole world knows Falun Dafa is good.

Juna

04-22-2006, 02:27 PM

The cultivation stories here:
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/31/

Health Benefits here:
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/136/

The ccp Staged "Self-Immolation" Incident on Tiananmen Square here
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/self-immolation.html

Torture Methods Used by ccp in Persecution here
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/134/

Juna

04-22-2006, 02:29 PM

Juna

04-22-2006, 02:33 PM

Falum Gong = Atlantis.

I donot think so.

chaiwai

04-22-2006, 02:48 PM

You see what one women can do in few minutes.
That's all I got to say.

SanHeChuan

04-22-2006, 02:50 PM

Alright there Juna

DO YOU have any third party sorces? If not then shut up. At this point stories from either FG or China are likly to be HIGHLY biased.

Hephaestus

04-22-2006, 04:08 PM

Its principles are based on Truth, Compassion, and Tolerance.

I tend to side with the view that FLG does not deserve to be persecuted as much as its followers claim to be, but also that it is a hypocritical movement led by a raving madman: Li Hongzhi. "Tolerance" does not describe the core beliefs of the FLG movement.

Exerpts from www.religioustolerance.org :

Racism:
- According to the New York Times, Li Hongzhi said that: "...interracial children are the spawn of the 'Dharma Ending Period,' a Buddhist phrase that refers to an era of moral degeneration. In an interview last year, he said each race has its own paradise, and he later told followers in Australia that, 'The yellow people, the white people, and the black people have corresponding races in heaven.' As a result, he said, interracial children have no place in heaven without his intervention." (emphasis mine)

Beliefs:
- As noted below, ****sexuality is degenerate behavior, on a par with sexual promiscuity.
- As noted below, illness is caused by the indwelling of "an intelligent entity that exists in another dimension."
- The body's vital energy, Qi, can be focused to improve one's health and sense of well being. But it can also "be used to develop the ability to fly, to move objects by telekinesis, and to heal diseases." 12
- "...the Falun, or Dharma Wheel, and is described by Mr. Li as a miniature of the cosmos that he says he installs telekinetically in the abdomens of all his followers, where it rotates in alternating directions, throwing off bad karma and gathering qi. Many Falun Gong adherents say they can feel the wheel turning in their bellies." 13
- Eighty-one previous human civilizations had achieved a higher level of scientific achievement than we enjoy at the present time. However, they were all "left in complete destruction." 12
- A person with qigong training can walk through solid objects, like a wall.
- A qigong master emits "gong:" a "high-energy substance that manifests in the form of light."
- Individuals with some qigong training can exhibit super-human abilities: clairaudience, telepathy, precognition, etc. But it takes a qigong master to achieve certain functionality, like alchemy -- the ability to transform one type of substance to another. The latter could tear down a large building using mental power only. They would never do this in practice, because it is forbidden for them to demonstrate their powers. Also, such destruction would cause harm. 10
- Karma is a type of black material that encompasses each person's body. It has a physical existence "in another dimension and can transform into sickness or misfortune."
- Qigong practitioners can open their "tianmu" -- third eye. When the passage between their third eye and pineal gland can take many shapes: "oval, to round, rhombic to triangular." A practitioner can see things beyond this world. However, the functioning of the third eye is inhibited at certain practical levels. For example, they are unable to see through walls or clothes, because such a talent would be disruptive to society.
- Normal people are aware of only three dimensional existence -- four if you include time. However, a qigong master can see "dozens of levels of dimensions." Time shifting is also possible.
- There are many living entities on earth that appear to be humans, but in fact are aliens. (emphasis mine)

The Falun Gong movement appears to treat ****sexuality -- presumably ****sexual behavior not ****sexual orientation -- as a degenerate behavior, on a par with sexual promiscuity:
- Founder and current leader Li Hongzhi delivered a lecture in Sydney, Australia in 1996. 7 In it, he made a passing reference to ****sexuality:

"...the morality of human society has altogether declined. The moral values in people’s hearts have been corrupted. When there is no righteous mind, it means that the Fa [law, principle, way] is no longer effectual. When the Fa is no longer effectual in human society, mankind will decline. ...The change in human society has been quite frightening! People would stop at nothing in doing evil things such as drug abuse and drug dealing. A lot of people have done many bad deeds. Things such as organized crime, ****sexuality, and promiscuous sex, etc., none are the standards of being human." (Emphasis by religioustolerance.org).

- In New York City during 1997, he said during a lecture:

"I often say that humankind has gone through different historical periods before arriving at this day. In other words, many, many times humankind was wiped out after experiencing catastrophes at different points in history. ...Some people talk about how great Greek culture was, but where did those people go? Today something from Greek culture can be found: The elements of Greek culture that have been left are definitely from the final period of Greek civilization’s development, and we’ve found that there was ****sexuality in it as well, along with promiscuous sex, and in addition, life was really extravagant and wasteful, corrupt, and terribly degenerate; we can see that humankind had already deteriorated terribly....Aren’t humans in a dangerous state? Your government permits something, your country permits it, your nation permits it, and even you approve it in your thinking, but it isn’t necessarily good. That’s why if you look at today’s society you can see that drug use, drug trafficking, drug making, sex changes, ****sexuality, sexual freedom, organized crime, etc., emerge in an endless stream. Selfishness and desires have made people enemies of one another and without any righteous thoughts. All kinds of phenomena of a degenerate human society abound."(Emphasis by religioustolerance.org)

Tolerance? You must be joking.
And these are not the kinds of claims made by real Qigong practitioners, as anyone familiar with the field is well aware; they are the ravings of a man trying to inspire belief in his "superhuman abilities".

That's all I have to add to the matter.

couch

04-22-2006, 04:25 PM

http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html

Read this interview with the founder.

Cult that came from aliens. :)

Excerpt:
-----TIME: Are you a human being?
Li: You can think of me as a human being.

TIME: Are you from earth?
Li: I don't wish to talk about myself at a higher level. People wouldn't understand it.

TIME: What are the aliens after?
Li: The aliens use many methods to keep people from freeing themselves from manipulation. They make earthlings have wars and conflicts, and develop weapons using science, which makes mankind more dependent on advanced science and technology. In this way, the aliens will be able to introduce their stuff and make the preparations for replacing human beings. The military industry leads other industries such as computers and electronics.

TIME: But what is the alien purpose?
Li: The human body is the most perfect in the universe. It is the most perfect form. The aliens want the human body.

TIME: What do aliens look like?
Li: Some look similar to human beings. U.S. technology has already detected some aliens. The difference between aliens can be quite enormous.

TIME: Can you describe it?
Li: You don't want to have that kind of thought in your mind.
-----

dwid

04-22-2006, 04:45 PM

Wow... aliens and superhuman powers.

I never realized Falun Gong was China's answer to scientology.:D

GLW

04-22-2006, 06:18 PM

actually, Li Hongzhi makes Tom Cruise look normal

CaptinPickAxe

04-22-2006, 07:26 PM

Donot believe lies and slanders from ccp and certain irresponsible reporters , if you want to know sth, go and find a Falun gong practitioner near you, and ask. It is easy to find Falun Gong practitioners in the world.

It's not propaganda from the CCP. I've read Falun Dafa and formed my own views. Next question.

If you want the dirt, don't be a lazy c unt. Use the search function. My job isn't ***** boy, getting papers for someone who has been on these forums longer than me. Use your fingers for something other than your Dim Mak practice... search. The info isn't that deep.

We had some FG members come through and prove just how loony they are.

David Jamieson

04-23-2006, 06:22 AM

Falun Gong again eh? lol

They are persistent, i'll have to give them that.
A little shy in the ability to think for oneslef department, but persistent.

They are regarded with a suspicious eye more and more these days because of their own tangle of vagueries and lies.

The only people who put out information about falun torture and what not is teh Falun gong people trhemselves.

They create their own hysteria and accuse and look for pity for their organizationo. Of course, it has been shown that most of their claims are untrue, unproovable or wholly incorrect from start to finish.

The chi kung have been co-opted from other practice, the leader lives like a king in Manhattan and was the first one to take his folowers offerings to get teh heck outta dodge.

A train wreck of a pseudo-religion fully full on cult and a detriment to the democracy movement in China.

lkfmdc

04-23-2006, 07:06 AM

Speaking of racism, ****phobia and xenophobia on the part of Falun Dafa

Li Hongzhi stated in a lecture in Sydney that:

The races in the world are not allowed to be mixed up. Now, the races are mixed up and it has brought about an extraordinarily serious problem. ... Thus, races have become increasingly mixed up, which can lead to serious consequences. Of course, I will not go into details. I'm just saying that the higher levels do not recognize such a human race.

Got to love his inability to go into any details :rolleyes: buthat is clearly a racist statement.

He is also xenophobic and tries pushing the Chinese as a master race;

In the same lecture, he said that Jesus is only at the level of a Tathagata, which is lower than that of a Buddha (based on Zhuan Falun). So he is implying that the Asian Race is superior because they had a higher level teacher.

and to quote from another of Li Hongzhi's speech RE how we are all just Chinese but yet lower than him:

every country’s people in history reincarnated in China. No matter which country you are from, you were Chinese on this Earth first… For example, the current Americans are people from the Ming dynasty… The United Kingdom was the Great Tang dynasty, France was the Great Qing, Italy was the Yuan, this Australia was the Xia, this Russia was Zhou, Sweden was Northern Song, Taiwan was Southern Song, Japan was Sui.

By the way, the Sui was one of the least successful and horrible dynasties in Chinese history, and thus a clear affront to any Japanese

chud

04-23-2006, 07:47 AM

The races in the world are not allowed to be mixed up. Now, the races are mixed up and it has brought about an extraordinarily serious problem. ... Thus, races have become increasingly mixed up, which can lead to serious consequences. Of course, I will not go into details. I'm just saying that the higher levels do not recognize such a human race.

Got to love his inability to go into any details :rolleyes: buthat is clearly a racist statement.

I don't pretend to understand the teachings of Falun Gong, but anyway their teachings aren't really the point, the oppression by the Chinese gov't is. It should not be a crime to hold weird opinions or have beliefs that we may consider strange, as long as you're peaceful and not hurting anyone. For example, as a Christian I thought that the Branch Davidians in Waco were way off-base in their beliefs and their interpretation of the bible, but being weird isn't a crime; and what happened to the women and children who died in the fire in Waco was wrong.
If Falun Gong wants to peacefully do chi kung and believe in aliens or whatever then fine, let 'em do it. Who's it hurting?

The Willow Sword

04-23-2006, 07:57 AM

What i am wondering is what the Hell does any of the Leaders' sayings have anything to do with TAOISM and TAOIST Principles? I mean since the organization seems to want to have a return to those ways and end communism in China.
This Seperatist/racist/Extra-Terrestrial Mindset is pretty mentally ill if you ask me.

I have done some reading on the Falun Gong and it would seem that the initial ideas they have on meditation and such rings true with Taoist and 5 element theory and such,,yet the "political" side of the group rings of a cult. But if this "Cult" wants to end communism in china and establish a new way of governing people i suggest that they "get with the 21st century" and adopt some more mentally stable concepts, because when i read the excerpts of what the leader of falun gong is saying about race and such, it would seem that this guy is a pretty harsh TYRANT wearing a liberal Mask.

Although i disagree with communism and feel it is a failed system and should END, i DONT FEEL that it should be replaced with Falun Gong, in China.

You know, though, the Gongers sure know how to make exceptionally Wonderful Vegan Food. Here in Austin TX we have a little joint on campus called "Veggie Heavan" and the people who run it are Falun Gongers,,they seem pretty nice and are very cordial and such,,The food there is Excellent!!.

As Always,,TWS

chud

04-23-2006, 08:41 AM

You know, though, the Gongers sure know how to make exceptionally Wonderful Vegan Food. Here in Austin TX we have a little joint on campus called "Veggie Heavan" and the people who run it are Falun Gongers,,they seem pretty nice and are very cordial and such,,The food there is Excellent!!.

As Always,,TWS

I'll have to check that place out next time I'm in Austin. Thanks for the tip WillowSword.

Royal Dragon

04-23-2006, 10:14 AM

No matter which country you are from, you were Chinese on this Earth first…

Reply]
You know, bizzaro cult and all, if yu beleive in re-encarnation, this is probably true.

If my memory serves me correctly, there are a number of theories that believe ****saipians populated Asia before any other contenent.

I think there is more evidence for Africa, but Asia is still in the picture as being the cradle of modern man.

Juna

04-23-2006, 01:11 PM

So he is implying that the Asian Race is superior because they had a higher level teacher.

Here, please do not twist other's words.

Juna

04-23-2006, 01:21 PM

Alright there Juna

At this point stories from either FG or China are likly to be HIGHLY biased.

ccp cannot open its mouth without lying, this is already known by the world .

Juna

04-23-2006, 01:25 PM

Exerpts from www.religioustolerance.org :

Tolerance? You must be joking.
And these are not the kinds of claims made by real Qigong practitioners, as anyone familiar with the field is well aware; they are the ravings of a man trying to inspire belief in his "superhuman abilities".

Can you explain which sentence, or which idea makes you feel no Tolerance?

I mentioned, certain reporters twisted Mr. Li's original words, and interpreted this way or that way. that is not responsible.

CaptinPickAxe

04-23-2006, 01:41 PM

I don't pretend to understand the teachings of Falun Gong, but anyway their teachings aren't really the point, the oppression by the Chinese gov't is. It should not be a crime to hold weird opinions or have beliefs that we may consider strange, as long as you're peaceful and not hurting anyone. For example, as a Christian I thought that the Branch Davidians in Waco were way off-base in their beliefs and their interpretation of the bible, but being weird isn't a crime; and what happened to the women and children who died in the fire in Waco was wrong.
If Falun Gong wants to peacefully do chi kung and believe in aliens or whatever then fine, let 'em do it. Who's it hurting?

Here's the deal with this, chum. We live in the land of the free (somewhat), and they live in a communist country. Our laws aren't omnipotent and ever-present. To force our way on someone else is exactly like the Chinese censoring religion.

I find it ironic that people compare Davidians to Gongers. Bird of a feather...
Ya, know. They found in an ivestigation that Davidians are the ones that started the fire and kept the hostages inside to burn to death.

Sounds like something FG would do.
"Don't worry! Li Hong Zi has spoken with the aliens and they say fire will only assure us a place on the spaceship!!!"

Juna

04-23-2006, 01:44 PM

If Falun Gong wants to peacefully do chi kung and believe in .. Who's it hurting?

You are right, a simple sentence and a simple idea!

chud

04-23-2006, 01:46 PM

Here's the deal with this, chum. We live in the land of the free (somewhat), and they live in a communist country. Our laws aren't omnipotent and ever-present. To force our way on someone else is exactly like the Chinese censoring religion.

I am not saying that the Chinese government needs to be just like ours, I'm just saying that they should do the right thing and give some minimal freedoms to their people. Right now they are violating basic human rights, and that is wrong.

Juna

04-23-2006, 01:53 PM

Although i disagree with communism and feel it is a failed system and should END, i DONT FEEL that it should be replaced with Falun Gong, in China.

But how did you know Falun Gong would replace the evil ccp? Falun Gong is not a political party, and doesnot involve in politics, now evil ccp uses all the resources of China to persecute Falun Gong, and tells tons of lies to defame Falun Gong. how to end the persecution? The only way is exposing the evil nature of ccp, let the whole world understand what Falun Gong is and what ccp is.

The 55-year history of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is written with blood and lies. The stories behind this bloody history are both extremely tragic and rarely known. Under the rule of the CCP, 60 to 80 million innocent Chinese people have been killed, leaving their broken families behind. Many people wonder why the CCP kills. While the CCP continues its brutal persecution of Falun Gong practitioners and recently suppressed protesting crowds in Hanyuan with gunshots, people wonder whether they will ever see the day when the CCP will learn to speak with words rather than guns.

more here:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html

Juna

04-23-2006, 03:12 PM

Right now they are violating basic human rights, and that is wrong.

really Correct.

Royal Dragon

04-23-2006, 06:14 PM

In all honesty, why not just do Tai Chi?

Juna

04-24-2006, 01:43 AM

In all honesty, why not just do Tai Chi?

In all honest, why couldn't sby choose to practise Falun Gong?

Juna

04-24-2006, 01:49 AM

getting papers for someone who has been on these forums longer than me. Use your fingers for something other than your Dim Mak practice... search. The info isn't that deep.

We had some FG members come through and prove just how loony they are.

I think outsiders' comments is not correct, only some quess, some questions, about the Times article, do you think the reporter knows Qi Gong's Qi or energy, do you think he has the right to judge a belief, no. Also, I know quite some ccp's agents are active in forums, one of their tasks is defaming Falun Gong.

Peace.

David Jamieson

04-24-2006, 06:13 AM

If you put two liars in the same room to argue, will any truth come from it?

FD/FG has not been able to provide much in the way of evidence that they have been tortured en masse etc etc. What they do is political stir the mud in a country that is not tolerant of such activity it is also completely an wholly unconnected from any chi kung practice.

so, is fg/fd about chi kung practice or is it an upstart political group functioning in china? someone's lying about the purpose.

Independent fact finding missions regarding fg/fd claims have in fact already begun. To date, FG?FD claims have been a wash, their accusations although vociferous don't pan out in the reality of teh situation and ergo, they can only be regarded with a wary eye.

China on the other hand is moving towards a more acceptable relationship with the rest opf the world and has made great strides even in teh last 10 years towards better relations which are of course incumbent partly on the human rights question.

FG/FD does more to harm the democracy movement in China with their antics and bearing of false accusation.

Interspersing small truths with a pack of lies will always cause downfall.

FG/FD is and always has been a cult of personality which has co-opted treasured practice to serve as a platform for an alternate and unconnected agenda. This is disinformation and misinformation spreading.

Not as honest , benevolent and truthful as Juna would like us to think.

The falun gong is the worst place to source information about China and it's policies towards political dissedents. Only third party confirmation or denial of actions will serve as any valuable indicator at all seeing as FG/FD has muddied the waters they were trying to stand in.

Do we know China does bad things? Yes! Long before the FD/Fg even ame into being the west was more than aware of the problems in China with human rights.

Most people when practicing Chi Kung do so in silence so as to focus on some truths about themselves. It is not intended as a vehicle for political persuasion, it is intended as a vehicle for healthy practice to refine one's mind and body.

pretty twisted logic on many fronts from FG/FD.

It's a hard sell to a critical mind. As for those how think and act like sheep, what happens to sheep? They get shorn. They get eaten. remember that.

Juna

04-24-2006, 08:17 AM

If you put two liars in the same room to argue, will any truth come from it?

FD/FG has not been able to provide much in the way of evidence that they have been tortured en masse etc etc.

Evidence? Many.

Here about United Nations Report:

United Nations Reports on Persecution of Falun Gong Compiled in Recently Published Book
“The cruelty and brutality of these alleged acts of torture defy description.” – U.N. Special Rapporteur for Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions

http://www.clearharmony.net/articles/200412/23574.html

David Jamieson

04-24-2006, 08:23 AM

alleged

again, you post a link to FG/FD site.

If you cannot provide third party definitives, you're barking up the wrong tree.
When accusations such as this are made, and purportedly involves hundreds, if not thousands of people, do you not think it wise to find corroberation from an unbiased and unaffiliated source?

If not, sorry, but your words will remain nothing but empty until you can.

plain and simple.

to date, FG/FD has made lots of accusations and leveled a lot of it at the Government of China while trying to spread their stories as far as they can.

In the meantime, everyone is looking around going where? where?

so?

WHERE?

David Jamieson

04-24-2006, 08:38 AM

Please provide the links to the Un.org website that speaks to FG/FD accusations against China. I can't find any documentation rgerdaing evidence of the existence of FG/FD's allegations.

While it is known thatthe PRC has low tolerance for political organizations not sanctioned through the PRC and teh PRC is known to persecute dissidents, why do the Falun folks insist that they ar ebeing persecuted for the practice of qigong. That is a load of horse crap altogether and tarnishes the things they say.

It also lends strength to the posiution of the PRC that despite the fact that westerners don't understand what it is to be in a communist country, they do understand that vis a vis pluralism, It is within the rights of teh PRC to govern within teh modality they have laid out.

Yes, they (China) are not teh shining beacon of human rights that...well, come to think of it, tere is a lot of taint and injustice in the world.

IF FG/FD wants to be a political organization, then be that. the whole, we're persecuted because we do qigong is a load of crap.

ghet your story straight, get corroberating evidence, get dosumentation that goes beyond allegation, speculation, conjecture and not too mention wild and untrue stories and maybe people will give you a listen.

as long as you're just gabbing for the sake of gabbing, you all look like a pack of fools.

Juna

04-24-2006, 08:45 AM

List and Case Description of the Falun Gong Practitioners Who Have Been Killed In the Persecution

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/death_cases/death_list.html

David Jamieson

04-24-2006, 09:06 AM

I don't regret it at all. That's what forums are for. And again, you drone on like a broken record with yet another link to the same site that is making the accuisations as evidence.

There is a big gap and fault in your logic.

Again, can you please supply the links to the UN documentation that confirms these allegations?

Even amnesty international doesn't confirm any of it and jsut speculates on possibilities with no concrete evidence.

the PRC has made it's position clear, with reems of information as to why.

How come FG/FD cannot provide same.

Just post the 3rd party stuff and lets not go into a b1tch session about who regrets what ok. I'm definitely not against reversing my position on teh matter, but it is dependent upon legitamacy of the report.

Chicken little, the boy who cried wolf and other fairy tales are all that comes to mind at this moment.

so up with it or take it back to the close doors and hushed whispers of alarmists it comes from.

Juna

04-24-2006, 09:42 AM

alleged

If you cannot provide third party definitives,
WHERE?
Quoting from AI Report 2004

China
Covering events from January - December 2003
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Repression of spiritual and religious groups

Members of unofficial spiritual or religious groups, including some Qi Gong groups and unregistered Christian groups, continued to be arbitrarily detained, tortured and ill-treated.

Rhetoric intensified in the official media against the Falun Gong spiritual movement, which was banned as a “heretical organization” in July 1999, apparently exacerbating the climate of violence and intolerance against the Falun Gong. Detained Falun Gong practitioners, including large numbers of women, were at risk of torture, including sexual abuse, particularly if they refused to renounce their beliefs. According to overseas Falun Gong sources, more than 800 people detained in connection with the Falun Gong had died since 1999, mostly as a result of torture or ill-treatment.
• Deng Shiying reportedly died on 19 July, the day after her release from Jilin Women’s Prison in Changchun City, Jilin Province, where she was serving a seven-year prison sentence in connection with producing and distributing information describing human rights violations against Falun Gong practitioners in China. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng

Juna

04-24-2006, 09:48 AM

Even amnesty international doesn't confirm any of it and jsut speculates on possibilities with no concrete evidence.

here

Repression of spiritual and religious groups

Members of unofficial spiritual or religious groups, including some Qi Gong groups and unregistered Christian groups, continued to be arbitrarily detained, tortured and ill-treated.

The crack-down on the Falun Gong spiritual movement, which was banned as a “heretical organization” in July 1999, intensified, particularly after Falun Gong practitioners intercepted cable and satellite television to broadcast pro-Falun Gong messages.

Tens of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners continued to be detained, many at risk of torture and ill-treatment if they refused to renounce their beliefs. By the end of 2002, total alleged deaths in custody of Falun Gong practitioners had reached around 500. Most of those held were in “re-education through labour” centres, but some were in prisons or psychiatric hospitals. Those accused of organizing Falun Gong protests were sentenced to prison terms after apparently unfair trials. •

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Chn-summary-eng

The Falun Gong spiritual movement remained a key target of repression, which reportedly included many arbitrary detentions. Most of those detained were assigned to periods of “Re-education through Labour” without charge or trial, during which they were at high risk of torture or ill-treatment, particularly if they refused to renounce their beliefs. Others were held in prisons and psychiatric hospitals.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/chn-summary-eng

On 20 January 2000, Yang Yong, a spokesman for the Changguang police station in Fangshan district in Beijing, confirmed to a foreign journalist that around 50 practitioners, mainly women, were being held at the Zhoukoudian psychiatric hospital near Beijing. He said they "are not patients, they are there to be re-educated ... Most of them are Falun Gong extremists who have been to Beijing to protest at least 10 times".(13)

Chen Zixiu (f), a 59 year-old practitioner from Weifang in Shandong province, reportedly died under torture on 21 February 2000. She had been detained for four days in a ''Falun Gong transformation centre'' (Falun Gong Zhuanhua Kanguan Zhongxin) organized in a residential building by the local police and Chengguan Street Committee. Practitioners held with her testified in detail about the torture she was subjected to, and her final hours as she lost consciousness. Chen's family viewed her body on 21 February and found it covered with bruises, with her teeth broken and her ears bloody and swollen. They also found her clothing, covered in faeces. Chen Zixiu had reportedly been detained on 17 February on suspicion she was planning a second visit to Beijing to petition the central authorities against the ban on Falun Gong.

Several times, on 18 February officials reportedly demanded Chen's family pay a fine of 1,000 Yuan for her release, but they refused on the grounds it was an illegal levy, and threatened legal action. On 19 February, warned that Falun Gong practitioners were being beaten in the building, and telephoned by a fearful Chen, the family attempted to reach her to pay the fine, but were not successful.

Local police reportedly later claimed that she had ''died of a heart attack''. On 28 February 2000, the Information Office of the State Council denied there had been any fine or mistreatment. It stated that Chen had not been detained but taken to an office for ''helpful education'', and when her health worsened she had been sent to hospital where she died of a heart attack. In May 2000 Chinese diplomats appeared to contradict the State Council account, telling the UN Committee against Torture that Chen had ''never been held in custody in a detention house''. They stated she had not been ''beaten, subjected to corporal punishment'' but on 21 February had been ''sent to hospital directly from her home because she didn't feel well'' and died of a heart attack. This account is undermined by the testimony of Chen's daughter, Zhang Xueling. (See 7.4). At the end of 2000, after many months of petitioning, Zhang had still not obtained a copy of her mother's death certificate.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2001/chn-summary-eng

According to official sources, some 260,000 people were administratively detained in ''re-education through labour'' camps in early 2001, a substantial increase on the number officially reported in 1998. The use of this form of arbitrary detention increased particularly against Falun Gong practitioners and during the ''strike hard'' campaign against crime. Among other victims were political dissidents, members of Christian religious groups

http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/asa/china!Open

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 10:03 AM

Yes, here comes the wisdom, if somebody doesnot really know sth, especially the things beyond your knowledge, donot casually comment.

In the cultivation world, people knows karma. if somebody slanders... maybe there is someone here who can understand what I mean.

So, my suggestion, before comment on Falun Gong, which 100 million people practice, go to read Falun Gong's original teaching, my promise, you will not regret if you really carefully read.

Juna, the thing that I don't get, is that they actually have Falun Gong on T.V., and it doesn't look like anything more than some Lohan standing movements that I have come across in other places.

But I have read their literature (a guy that used to work for me was really interested in FG), and your leader basically makes himself out like a god or something, which doesn't really make any sense.

Secondly, how can they claim 100 million people practice? Are most of those in China? Because I know for a fact that the community is quite small in the U.S., having searched around at one point for practitioners myself.

Thirdly, why are they so politically active? If they hadn't protested in China, it doesn't seem like anything bad would have happened to them. There are plenty of people who practice Tai Chi in the parks of China and nothing bad happens to them. They're not trying to start some politically active cult.

So while it doesn't seem like they should be persecuted, it also doesn't really make sense why they are carrying on the way that they do.

Juna

04-24-2006, 10:34 AM

Please provide the links to the Un.org website that speaks to FG/FD accusations against China. I can't find any documentation rgerdaing evidence of the existence of FG/FD's allegations.

Ok, let people here understand the real face of ccp!

the international community must not ignore the massive human rights violations which are committed by security forces of the People's Republic of China against Tibetans, Uighurs, Mongolians, Christians, political dissidents and Falun Gong believers. Security forces routinely resort to arbitrary arrest, imprisonment, and torture in response to non-violent protest, including displaying Tibetan flags or other symbols of cultural identity, holding peaceful demonstrations, possessing a photograph of the Dalai Lama, forming prisoner lists, putting up posters, and distributing leaflets. Society for Threatened Peoples expresses its deep concern about the massive arrests of Falun Gong activists while peacefully practizing their believe. Numerous testimonies of arrested Falun Gong practioners are documenting the widespread use of torture in detention centres to extract confessions. Furthermore we are very much alarmed about the huge number of deaths of Falun Gong practioners in custody. Society for Threatened Peoples is extremely worried about the use of the Strike Hard Campaign, which officially is intended to combat criminality, to arbitrary arrest and sentence to death hundreds of Muslim Uighurs in the Autonomous Region of Xinjiang.

http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0/ddb06b42879163c7c1256bea004e8659?Opendocument

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 10:39 AM

Ok, let people here understand the real face of ccp!

http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0/ddb06b42879163c7c1256bea004e8659?Opendocument

Everybody knows the real face of CCP. Have you completely ignored the cultural revolution? Did you forget about all the people they killed, put in jail, the monks they killed, tortured and all that?

At some point you have to adapt to your government. Adapting to your government means not starting trouble and not getting in trouble. If the Chinese people were going to do something, they should have done something a long time ago. It's a little late now.

Basically if the FG and these other groups were smart, they'd be buying politicians like they do in the U.S., having their religion donate money to the parties and stuff, and then they'd get accepted.

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 11:10 AM

The movement is really simple, but if you can read the book <Turning the Law Wheel>, which every true practitioner must read, you will know Falun Gong is not as simple as you thought, you can read the book freely at www.falundafa.org.

Like I said, I read the literature, and you should not be surprised that somebody would be incredulous bordering on thinking you're all insane people. Not more insane than some other religions, perhaps, but definitely not mainstream.

Bottom line is, you want support of politicians, you have to buy them. You can't expect to get it for free. Why do you think there is such strong support for Christian groups in the U.S.? They're huge campaign donors and have a strong lobby, not to mention as a group they are strong voters.

Basically, I bet that if FG started providing support to Chinese officials, or paying bribes, etc., that they wouldn't be harassed so much. But instead, they're basically trying to overthrow the government, so of course there will be problems.

Juna

04-24-2006, 11:28 AM

Secondly, how can they claim 100 million people practice? Are most of those in China? Because I know for a fact that the community is quite small in the U.S., having searched around at one point for practitioners myself.

Before the evil crack down, the Chinese government performed a survey in 1997 or 1998, the result is that there are 70-100million Falun Gong practitioners in China.

Juna

04-24-2006, 11:31 AM

Thirdly, why are they so politically active? If they hadn't protested in China, it doesn't seem like anything bad would have happened to them.

Falun Gong practitioners are not interested in politics. Before the evil crack down, no protest from practitioners.

Now what practitioners are doing is exposing the ccp's atrocity, and stop the evil persecution, and that has nothing to do with politics.

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 11:32 AM

I think if you donot believe in Falun Gong's teaching, that is yours choice, when Jesus came to the earth and spread his teaching, sby described him as a son of carpenter, and even some bad people put him onto the cross. However, as Jesus predicted, that evil city was destroyed, and the people who had commited that huge sin suffered endless pain.

When Buddha Sakyamuni enlightened under the bodhi tree, he had a thought of leaving the material world, because he was afraid if somebody could not understand his teaching--Buddha law, and slandered Buddha, and Buddha law, that person would get huge karma.

Falun Dafa practitioners practice according the nature of the universe--to be true, good and endure, and this is not a simple practice, so if sby doesnot understand Falun Gong's teaching, just stand by, if sby casually slander so many kind, innocent people, especially while evil ccp is persecuting numerous practitioners, this person--well, I won't say too much.

Whatever, dude. I'm not slandering your movement. I don't care what you think or what you study. I have read your literature and I don't think your teacher is what he claims he is. I also don't believe that Christ was the son of god. I also don't believe that Muhammad was a prophet.

All of that doesn't matter. I am not slandering you. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, right?

You are complaining about persecution against your movement. I'm saying that what matters is that your movement appears to be taking a stance against a government. They are being persecuted because they are doing so.

I'm trying to explain to you that cult groups face similar persecution in the U.S. (Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.) If you want to be mainstream and get the support of the politicians you have to PAY THEM OFF. You have to give them your support and money.

Juna

04-24-2006, 11:40 AM

There are plenty of people who practice Tai Chi in the parks of China and nothing bad happens to them.

I recommend you read this article:

Simultaneously Extinguishing the Three Religions

Owing to the fact that the traditional culture is rooted in Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism, the CCP’s first step in destroying traditional culture was to extinguish the manifestation of the divine principles in the human world, eradicating the three religions corresponding to them.

All three major religions, Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism, encountered destruction in different historical time periods. Take Buddhism for example. It has suffered four major tribulations in history, which are historically known as the “Three Wus and One Zong” persecution of Buddhist devotees by four Chinese emperors. Emperor Taiwu [28] of the Northern Wei Dynasty (386-534 AD) and Emperor Wuzong [29] of the Tang Dynasty (618-907 AD) both tried to extinguish Buddhism in order to have Taoism prevail. Emperor Wu [30] of the Northern Zhou Dynasty (557-581 AD) tried to extinguish Buddhism and Taoism together, but venerated Confucianism. Emperor Shizong [31] of the Later Zhou Dynasty (951-960 AD) tried to extinguish Buddhism merely to use the Buddha statues to mint coins, and did not touch Taoism or Confucianism.

The CCP is the only regime to extinguish the three religions simultaneously.
Soon after the CCP established a government, it began to destroy temples, burn scriptures and forced the Buddhist monks and nuns to return to secular life. Neither was it any softer in destroying other religious places. By the 1960s, there were hardly any religious places left in China. The Great Cultural Revolution brought even greater religious and cultural catastrophe in the campaign of “Casting Away the Four Olds” [32]—i.e., old ideas, old culture, old customs and old habits.

For example, the first Buddhist temple in China was the White Horse Temple (Bai Ma Temple) [33] built in the early Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220 AD) outside Luoyang city, Henan Province. It is honored as “the Cradle of Buddhism in China” and “the Founder’s Home.” During “Casting Away the Four Olds,” the White Horse Temple, of course, could not escape looting.

There was a White Horse Temple production brigade near the temple. The Party branch secretary led peasants to smash the temple in the name of ‘revolution.’ The over 1,000-year-old clay statues of the Eighteen Arhats built in the Liao Dynasty (916-1125 AD) were destroyed. The Beiye scripture [34] that an eminent Indian monk brought to China 2,000 years ago was burned. A rare treasure, the Jade Horse, was smashed to pieces. Several years later, Cambodian King in Exile Norodom Sihanouk made a special request to pay homage to the White Horse Temple. Zhou Enlai, the Chinese premier at the time, hurriedly ordered the transport to Luoyang of the Beiye scripture stored in the Imperial Palace in Beijing and the statues of the Eighteen Arhats built in the Qing Dynasty from the Temple of Azure Clouds (Biyun Temple) located at the Xiangshan Park [35] in suburban Beijing. With this bogus replacement, a diplomatic difficulty was ‘solved.’ [36]

The Cultural Revolution began in May of 1966. It was in fact “revolutionizing” Chinese culture in a destructive way. Starting in August 1966, the raging fire of the “Casting Away the Four Olds” burned the entire land of China. Regarded as objects of “feudalism, capitalism, and revisionism,” the Buddhist temples, Taoist temples, Buddha statues, historical and scenic sites, calligraphy, paintings, and antiques became the main targets for destruction by the Red Guards. [37] Take the Buddha statues for example. There are 1000 colored, glazed Buddha statues in relief on the top of Longevity Hill in the Summer Palace [38] in Beijing. After the “Casting Away the Four Olds,” they were all damaged. None of them has a complete set of the five sensory organs any more.

The capital of the country was like this, and so was the rest of the country. Even the remote county seats did not escape.

There is a Tiantai Temple in Dai county in Shanxi Province. It was built during the Taiyan time period of the Northern Wei Dynasty 1,600 years ago and had precious statues and frescos. Although it was situated on a hillside quite a distance away from the county seat, the people who participated in the ‘Casting Away the Four Olds’ ignored the difficulties and made a clean sweep of the statues and frescos there. … The Louguan Temple, [39] where Lao Zi gave his lecture and left his famous Tao-te Ching 2,500 years ago, is situated in the Zhouzhi County of Shaanxi Province. Centered around the platform where Lao Zi lectured, within a radius of 10 li [40], there are over 50 historical sites, including the Temple Venerating the Sage (Zongsheng Gong) that Emperor Tang Gaozu Li Yuan [41] built to show respect for Lao Zi over 1,300 years ago. Now the Louguan Temple and the other historical sites have been destroyed, and all Taoist priests have been forced to leave. According to the Taoist canon, once one becomes a Taoist priest, one can never shave one’s beard or have one’s hair cut. However, now the Taoist priests are forced to have their hair cut, take off their Taoist robes, and become members of the People’s communes. [42] Some of them married daughters of the local peasants and became their sons-in-law. … At the sacred Taoist places in Laoshan Mountain in Shandong Province, the Temple of Supreme Peace, the Temple of the Highest Clarity, the Supreme Clarity Temple, the Doumu Temple, the Huayan Nunnery, the Ningzhen Temple, the Temple of Guan Yu, ‘the statues of the divine, sacrificial vessels, scrolls of Buddhist sutras, cultural relics, and temple tablets were all smashed and burned down’. … The Temple of Literature in Jilin Province is one of the four famous Temples of Confucius in China. During the ‘Casting Away the Four Olds,’ it was severely damaged.” [43]

More here:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-20/25087.html

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 11:46 AM

Whatever, Juno, I'm through talking to you. You aren't listening to what I'm saying.

Juna

04-24-2006, 11:54 AM

All of that doesn't matter. I am not slandering you. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, right?

You are complaining about persecution against your movement. I'm saying that what matters is that your movement appears to be taking a stance against a government. They are being persecuted because they are doing so.

I'm trying to explain to you that cult groups face similar persecution in the U.S. (Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.) If you want to be mainstream and get the support of the politicians you have to PAY THEM OFF. You have to give them your support and money.

As I have explained Falun Gong practitioners are not involving politics, just exposing the real face of evil ccp.

As Falun Gong practitioners try to act according to the nature of the universe--to be true , good and endure, so can you imagine these kind of people could pay money for support?

People have conscience, including political persons, here

Worldwide Support

[4/23/2006-4/24/2006]

* Canadians Condemn the CCP's Crimes against Falun Gong Practitioners (4) [4/24/2006]
* Vancouver, Canada: Prime Minister Harper Responds to Practitioners' Call for End to Persecution (Photos) [4/23/2006]
* Taiwan: 54 Legislative Committee Members Urge International Community To Investigate Chinese Labor Camps (Photos) [4/23/2006]
* Councilmember from City of San Jose Urges President Bush to Stop the CCP's Brutal Persecution of Falun Gong Practitioners [4/23/2006]

[4/16/2006-4/22/2006]

* Colorado State General Assembly Passes a Resolution Condemning the CCP's Persecution of Falun Gong [4/22/2006]
* Taiwan: Pingdong Legislative Committee Member Condemns the CCP's Brutal Killings (Photos) [4/22/2006]
* Mayor and Deputy Mayor of Union City, California, Concerned About the Harvesting of the Detained Falun Gong Practitioners' Organs in Prisons, Labor Camps, and Hospitals in China and Call for a Full Investigation [4/22/2006]
* Germany: Members of Parliament Condemn the Persecution of Falun Gong [4/21/2006]
* Turkey: Human Rights Investigation Committee of the Turkish Grand National Assembly Condemns CCP Atrocities [4/21/2006]
* Vancouver MP Urges Canadian Government to Condemn the CCP Atrocities in Chinese Death Camps [4/20/2006]
* Canadians Condemn CCP Crimes of Live Organ Removal from Falun Gong Practitioners [4/20/2006]
* The French People Request the International Community to Pay Close Attention to the Chinese Communist Party's Savage Acts (Photo) [4/19/2006]
* Canadians Condemn CCP Crimes against Falun Gong (Part 3) [4/18/2006]
* Ontario Government Should Let Ontarians Know: the CCP is Harvesting Organs from Living Practitioners (Photo) [4/17/2006]
* Taiwan: Legislative Committee Puts Forward Resolution Urging Human Rights Organization to Investigate the CCP's Crimes [4/17/2006]
* Canadian Human Rights Lawyer: International Juridical System Should Hold CCP Criminals Accountable for Killing Practitioners for Their Organs (Photo) [4/16/2006]
* New York Nurse's Union Chair: International Community Should Intervene (Photo) [4/16/2006]

[4/9/2006-4/15/2006]

* Canadians Condemn CCP's Crimes against Falun Gong Practitioners (Part 2) [4/15/2006]
* Switzerland: Swiss MPs and International NGOs Condemn the Crimes of the CCP Concentration Camp [4/15/2006]
* Canadians Condemn CCP's Crimes against Falun Gong Practitioners [4/14/2006]
* Turkey: Human Rights Investigation Committee of the Turkish Grand National Assembly Strongly Condemns the Chinese Communist Regime's Atrocities [4/13/2006]
* US Congressmen Jointly Write to the Governor of Sichuan Province Calling for Immediate Release of Falun Gong Practitioners Ms. Yuan Yuju and Mr. Liang Jinhui [4/12/2006]
* US Congressman Rohrabacher: "It's time for the civilized world to say 'no' to the monsters that are tearing apart people in China" (Photo) [4/11/2006]
* Canada: Member of Parliament Davis Urges Canadian Government To Speak Up About Concentration Camp Atrocities [4/11/2006]
* Geneva, Switzerland: Swiss MPs and International NGOs Condemn the Barbarity of CCP Concentration Camps (Photo) [4/11/2006]
* UK Government Concerned about Human Organ Harvesting in China [4/10/2006]

[4/2/2006-4/8/2006]

* Argentina: People From All Walks of Life Protest the CCP's Sujiatun Concentration Camp (Photos) [4/7/2006]
* Falun Gong Human Rights Working Group (FGHRWG): People From Around the World Condemn CCP's Sujiatun Concentration Camp [4/7/2006]
* California: Milpitas City Council Member Hopes to Stop the Atrocities at Sujiatun (Photo) [4/7/2006]
* Chairman of International Relations Committee of US Congress Hopes Falun Gong Practitioners Be Free of Any Harm (Photo) [4/6/2006]
* Taiwan: Legislative Committee Members Ask Public to Write Letters Urging United Nations to Investigate the Sujiatun Case (Photos) [4/6/2006]
* German Department of Economic Cooperation and Development Pays Attention to the Persecution of Falun Gong [4/6/2006]
* Chinese Doctor Calls for a Stop to Recommending Patients to Go to China for Organ Transplants [4/4/2006]
* FGHRWG Appeals to UN Regarding Sujiatun Concentration Camp; UN Launches Investigation [4/2/2006]

[3/26/2006-4/1/2006]

* Dutch Parliament Member Sends Inquiries to Minister of Foreign Affairs Concerning Sujiatun Concentration Camp [4/1/2006]
* California: Union City Passes a Resolution to Report to President Bush about the Sujiatun Concentration Camp (Photo) [3/31/2006]
* The Glittering Twenty-Four Yuan [3/29/2006]
* Denmark: Member of Parliament Asks for Investigation into the Sujiatun Death Camp [3/26/2006]

more here: http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/30/

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 11:57 AM

As I have explained Falun Gong practitioners are not involving politics, just exposing the real face of evil ccp.

As Falun Gong practitioners try to act according to the nature of the universe--to be true , good and endure, so can you imagine these kind of people could pay money for support?

People have conscience, including political persons, here

If the way of the world is the world is corrupt and you have to pay them off to get them to do something, then you should pay them off.

The way of the world is the world is corrupt and if you make people mad they will hurt you. So I'm sorry you decided to do that and get hurt, but that is the way of the world.

Juna

04-24-2006, 11:59 AM

Whatever, Juno, I'm through talking to you. You aren't listening to what I'm saying.

I know, but I think I have to explain to you one issue after another.

The Willow Sword

04-24-2006, 12:03 PM

Hmmm I wonder what "Huge Kharma" the FG is paying up for when they are so persecuted by the powers that be? ;)

TWS

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 12:16 PM

I know, but I think I have to explain to you one issue after another.

You seem to think I'm clueless, but the fact is, I have done the research on persecution and stuff.

I am against religious persecution. That being said, I find that religous people are mostly impossible to talk to and reason with because they can't seem to deal with reality. They would like to live in an ideal world, instead of accepting the world they are in. My own family will not even talk to me anymore because I am not a Christian and don't agree with their beliefs.

Anyways, it's not really important, and I'm really tired of talking about religion. Especially with zealots.

Juna

04-24-2006, 12:39 PM

Everybody knows the real face of CCP. Have you completely ignored the cultural revolution? Did you forget about all the people they killed, put in jail, the monks they killed, tortured and all that?

It seems sby in this forum is quite favor evil ccp, so at this point you are wiser.

Here please:

The Cultural Revolution was formally launched on May 16, 1966 and lasted until 1976. This period was called the "Ten-Year Catastrophe" even by the CCP itself. Later in an interview with a Yugoslav reporter, Hu Yaobang, the former general party secretary said, "At that time nearly 100 million people were implicated, which was one tenth of the Chinese population."

Facts of the Political Campaigns after the Founding of the People's Republic of China reported that, "In May 1984, after 31 months of intensive investigation, verification and recalculation by the Central Committee of the CCP, the figures related to the Cultural Revolution were: over 4.2 million people were detained and investigated; over 1,728,000 people died of unnatural causes; over 135,000 people were labeled as counter-revolutionaries and executed; over 237,000 people were killed and over 7.03 million were disabled in armed attacks; and 71,200 families were destroyed." Statistics compiled from county annals show that 7.73 million people died of unnatural causes during the Cultural Revolution.

Besides the beating of people to death, the beginning of the Cultural Revolution also triggered a wave of suicides. Many famous intellectuals, including Lao She, Fu Lei, Jian Bozan, Wu Han and Chu Anping all ended their own lives at an early stage of the Cultural Revolution.

The Cultural Revolution was the most frenzied leftist period in China. Killing became a competitive way to exhibit one's revolutionary standing, so the slaughter of "class enemies" was extremely cruel and brutal.

The policy of "reform and opening up" greatly advanced the circulation of information, which made it possible for many foreign reporters to witness the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989 and to air television reports showing tanks chase down and crush college students to death.

Ten years later, on July 20, 1999, Jiang Zemin began his suppression of Falun Gong. By the end of 2002, inside information from government sources in Mainland China confirmed the cover-up of over 7,000 deaths in detention centers, forced labor camps, prisons and mental hospitals, with an average of seven people being killed every day.

Nowadays the CCP tends to kill far less than in the past when millions or tens of millions would be murdered. There are two important reasons for this. On the one hand, the Party has warped the minds of the Chinese people with its Party culture so that they are now more submissive and cynical. On the other hand, because of excessive corruption and embezzlement by CCP officials, the Chinese economy has become a "transfusion type of economy," and depends substantially on foreign capital to sustain economic growth and social stability. The CCP vividly remembers the economic sanctions that followed the Tiananmen Square massacre, and knows that open killing would result in a withdrawal of foreign capital that would endanger its totalitarian regime.

Nevertheless, the CCP has never given up slaughtering behind the scenes, but today's CCP spares no efforts to hide the bloody evidence.

******************

II. Extremely Cruel Ways of Killing

Everything the CCP does serves only one purpose: gaining and maintaining power. Killing is a very important way for the CCP to maintain its power. The more people killed and the crueler the killings, the greater the ability to terrify. Such terror started as early as before the Sino-Japanese War.

Massacre in Northern China during Sino-Japanese War

When recommending the book Enemy Within by Father Raymond J. De Jaegher [16], former U.S. President Hoover commented that the book exposed the naked terror of communist movements. He would recommend it to anyone who was willing to understand such an evil force in this world.

In this book, De Jaegher told stories about how the CCP used violence to terrify people into submission. For instance, one day the CCP required everyone to go to the square in the village. Teachers led the children to the square from school. The purpose for the gathering was to watch the killing of 13 patriotic young men. After announcing the fabricated charges against the victims, the CCP ordered the horrified teacher to lead the children to sing patriotic songs. Appearing on the stage amid the songs were not dancers, but rather an executioner holding a sharp knife in his hands. The executioner was a fierce, robust young communist soldier with strong arms. The soldier went behind the first victim, quickly raised a big sharp knife and struck downwards, and the first head fell to the ground. Blood sprayed out like a fountain as the head rolled on the ground. The children's hysterical singing turned into chaotic screaming and crying. The teacher kept the beat, trying to keep the songs going; her bell was heard ringing over and over in the chaos.

The executioner chopped 13 times and 13 heads fell to the ground. After that, many communist soldiers came over, cut the victims' chests open and took out their hearts for a feast. All the brutality was done in front of the children. The children went all pale due to the terror, and some started throwing up. The teacher scolded the soldiers, and lined the children up to return to school.

After that, Father De Jaegher often saw children being forced to watch killings. The children became used to the bloody scenes and numb to the killing; some even started to enjoy the excitement.

When the CCP felt that simple killing was not horrifying and exciting enough, they invented all kinds of cruel tortures. For example, forcing someone to swallow a large amount of salt without letting him drink any water—the victim would suffer until he died of thirst; or stripping someone naked and forcing him to roll on broken glass; or creating a hole in a frozen river in the winter, then throwing the victim into the hole—the victim would either freeze to death or drown.

De Jaegher wrote that a CCP member in Shanxi province invented a terrible torture. One day when he was wandering in the city, he stopped in front of a restaurant and stared at a big boiling vat. Later he purchased several giant vats, and immediately arrested some people who were against the communist party. During the hasty trial, the vats were filled with water and heated to boiling. Three victims were stripped naked and thrown into the vats to boil to death after the trial. At Pingshan, De Jaegher witnessed a father being skinned alive. The CCP members forced the son to watch and participate in the inhumane torture, to see his father die in excruciating pain and listen to his father's screams. The CCP members poured vinegar and acid onto the father's body and then all his skin was quickly peeled off. They started from the back, then up to the shoulders and soon the skin from his whole body was peeled off, leaving only the skin on the head intact. His father died in minutes.

more here;
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 12:56 PM

I think you can talk to your family, their belief asks them to be good persons, although you donot agree with their belief, but you didnot oppose their belief, why don't they talk to you, have they acted according their God's teaching?

Actually, Falun Gong practitioners cultivate in the ordinary world, they are good husbands, good wives, good parents, good children.

They think that since I do not believe what they believe, that I am opposed to their beliefs. Therefore they do not want to talk to me, since if I am not a Christian, I must be stupid. If I am not a Christian, I must be influenced by Satan. Since I am influenced by Satan, therefore I am evil. Since I am evil, they should not talk to me.

Always religious people try to convert others. Christian, Muslim, FG, they are all convinced they are correct. It is pretty obvious that they cannot all be correct.

I am against persecution of religion, but I have to admit that all these religious zealots always trying to convert me and argue with me, makes me a little less upset when people do bad things to them. I'm definitely not going to fight for their religious freedom when they don't even want to listen to my view point.

David Jamieson

04-24-2006, 01:00 PM

ok....riiiiight then.

*backs away from the nutbar*

:p

if one acts like a fruitcake, they will be treated as such.

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 01:21 PM

I am sure Falun Gong practitioners are not like this, and I think you can discuss with your family, did Jesus tell the followers that the persons who donot believe in him are evil?
That is their own thinking. Why people can go to Heaven? because they are good enough to be there. Why people can go to the hell? because they are evil enough to be there;
if sby believes there is the heaven, he should be a good person, a better person, but not talking to family members because of they donot believe in the god they believe is not the behavior of a good person, right?
Maybe you can discuss with them like this.

No, I cannot because they are stupid. That's the bottom line. I tried and they won't hear of it. My dad also stopped talking to his dad because his dad was a Jehovahs Witness (a branch of Christianity). They are zealots. Anybody who cannot be reasoned with and just argues with you, or does stupid things in the name of religion, if it's Christian, Muslim, Hindu, whatever, IMHO is a zealot.

Thanks for the advice, though. Too bad the world doesn't work that way.

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 01:23 PM

Anyway, I have to admit, that after dealing with so many people trying to convert me to their way of thinking and religion, and trying to reason with them, and they never will be reasoned with, that I kindof don't mind so much the U.S. locking up these zealots in Guantanamo, and think that China is justified in locking up radicals (maybe not killing them, but definitely locking them up).

Because these people are pretty fricking annoying.

Juna

04-24-2006, 01:34 PM

that I kindof don't mind so much the U.S. locking up these zealots in Guantanamo, and think that China is justified in locking up radicals (maybe not killing them, but definitely locking them up).

I think you should understand the difference between What U.S. and ccp has done. When sby uses the name of religion to make money, or to do sth bad, that is an evil cult, and the evil cult had hurt the society, therefore they should be stopped.

But in China, ccp doesnot allow other belief exists beside ccp, Falun Gong practitioners are persecuted not for they had done sth, but for their belief, this persecution is extremely evil.

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 02:47 PM

I think you should understand the difference between What U.S. and ccp has done. When sby uses the name of religion to make money, or to do sth bad, that is an evil cult, and the evil cult had hurt the society, therefore they should be stopped.

But in China, ccp doesnot allow other belief exists beside ccp, Falun Gong practitioners are persecuted not for they had done sth, but for their belief, this persecution is extremely evil.

Yes, it is not nice. But we are winning the war through the WTO as you yourself posted, the persecution of all groups has gone underground and is much less now that China is part of the WTO. So in this case we used money instead of your methods and look how much better the result is. If you don't like that, then fine, whatever, but it is working.

GLW

04-24-2006, 02:50 PM

You know, after seeing so many Juna posts, I keep waiting for one of his to end with "Symbolic stack dump follows"

Royal Dragon

04-24-2006, 04:48 PM

I have a question.
Why did the Chinese gov start persecuting Fg in the first place?

Also, Why have they NOT persecuted countless OTHER practitioners of various Qigongs?

I never heard that the Chinese goverment persecutes Ba Duan Jin, Yi Jin Jing, Xui Xue Jing, or 18 Louhan practitioners.

I have never hear of Taiji Ruler, Five Animal Frolics or those who practice other Taoist Qi gongs being persecuted.

No persecution of Taiji Quan, Hsing Y and Bagua players. Thier entire art is one HUGE Qi Gong method...with combat training blended into the mix to boot.

I have never heard of anyone who practices the harder Qi Gongs, like any number of Iron Body skills, being persecuted.

I have never heard of anyone who practices medical Qi gong's being persecuted.

I have never heard of anyone doing standing post Qi gong's being persecuted.

So why are Faulin Gong practitioners being persecuted again? if it is really for doing Qi gong, then why them, and no one else?

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 05:18 PM

I have a question.
Why did the Chinese gov start persecuting Fg in the first place?

Also, Why have they NOT persecuted countless OTHER practitioners of various Qigongs?

If you're a large religous group, you have to be allowed by the state. They don't like large religious groups with a central leader that could affect their politics. For example, Chinese Catholics don't really follow the Vatican, and they put a head Lama in place of Tibetan Buddhism there that they selected. There are like 5 main Chinese religions and the places of worship have to be cleared with the state.

(This is what Chinese people have told me, ranging from Buddhists to Christian -- I have no idea of the validity of it). Basically they don't like the mixing of religion and politics.

But a while back supposedly it used to be you couldn't follow religion at all (Marxist thing).

Anyways, supposedly FG got a lot of followers, and since it has a central leader, they thought it was bad because it put too much power in the hands of one man, so they started on an anti-FG movement, labeling it an evil cult or something. Every single PRC Chinese person I've ever met and asked about FG has said it's an evil cult and they are against it. Which is interesting that they all know about it and don't like it. Even Christian and Buddhist Chinese.

Not saying it's true or anything -- it doesn't sound like it is true. Sounds more like FG is like the Chinese version of Christian Scientists or something (weren't they the ones that believed in faith healing and sometimes keep their kids from getting treatment by doctors?)

Royal Dragon

04-24-2006, 05:42 PM

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 05:46 PM

Interesting. I remember a few years back Fauling gong people professing to NOT have any sort of centralised leadership, and it was just various group meeting and sharing the system.

Although, the very fact that they could be organised enough to promote that perspective, widely enough for it to find it's way to me, seems to counter the very claim itself...right?

No central leadership? That guy Li whoever that wrote the book is their leader.

Anyway, I asked another Chinese woman at work if she ever heard of it (another data point). She said that she's read the book, that it's very poorly written in terms of grammar, etc. and she could never figure out why her friends at University were interested in that. That many of her friends and people she knows follow FG, so she thinks it must be very popular and that they are very, very well organized. She doesn't think they are evil, though.

neilhytholt

04-24-2006, 05:47 PM

GLW

04-24-2006, 08:05 PM

The why for the persecution:

If you call it persecution...

Originally, when the differetn Falun Gong people in China would move in to a town or area, they would target people like the local party leaders, the chief of police, etc... to be encouraged to if not out and out become Falun Gong followers, to at least look upon the organization in a favorable way.

The connections that were being made at the grass roots of the party got notixed a good while back.

Then there was Li who was the leader...and who was wanted for this type of targetting - not surprising...and who eventually fled the country.

While they WERE looking unfavorably towards the Falun Gong folks, the escape of the leader pretty much was viewed as an admission of guilt for all of the things that they were suspected of.

Then to make it worse, there was the huge demonstration in Beijing. The news reports BEFORE the demonstration mentioned that the PRC had rejected the FG folks permit to gather.

Now, on the FG side, they maintain that the demonstration was impromptu. How likely is it that you will have an impromtu gathering of over 10,000 people in a nation's capitol on the day that was planned and turned down for a demonstration?

This thne eventually led to the outlawing of the FG group. It also ALMOST led to the outlawing of Qi Gong and other such practices as well.

SimonM

04-24-2006, 09:58 PM

If you're a large religous group, you have to be allowed by the state. They don't like large religious groups with a central leader that could affect their politics. For example, Chinese Catholics don't really follow the Vatican, and they put a head Lama in place of Tibetan Buddhism there that they selected. There are like 5 main Chinese religions and the places of worship have to be cleared with the state.

Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam. In all cases there is significant state control.

(This is what Chinese people have told me, ranging from Buddhists to Christian -- I have no idea of the validity of it). Basically they don't like the mixing of religion and politics.

There have been several instances in Chinese history where religion and politics have mixed quite freely. The current secular leadership of the country is thus apprehensive of any religious entity which they percieve as holding or seeking political power.

Anyways, supposedly FG got a lot of followers, and since it has a central leader, they thought it was bad because it put too much power in the hands of one man, so they started on an anti-FG movement, labeling it an evil cult or something. Every single PRC Chinese person I've ever met and asked about FG has said it's an evil cult and they are against it. Which is interesting that they all know about it and don't like it. Even Christian and Buddhist Chinese.

What happened (what Juna claims I invented though I assure you I did not) was that the FG tried to begin converting low-level leaders (think city police chief and mayor level party menbers) to their faith at an increasing rate. Fearing a grassroots takeover of the CCP by a politically motivated religion (cult) the CCP pulled their religious practice priveliges. Remember: in China religious practice is a privelige not a right. Anyway, FG organized a protest at T-square. The police took photos, wrote down names and arrested the ringleaders.

Then the FG started producing paintings of FG "martyrs" being subjected to medaeval tortures and started trying to recruit new-agey types who felt bad for the poor tortured qigong players.

Not saying it's true or anything -- it doesn't sound like it is true. Sounds more like FG is like the Chinese version of Christian Scientists or something (weren't they the ones that believed in faith healing and sometimes keep their kids from getting treatment by doctors?)

Scientologists would probably be a closer paralel than Christian Scientists.

Now if we could only get those freaking scientologists oppressed. :p

Just read GLW's post... Basically I'm saying the exact same thing as him on this. :p

David Jamieson

04-25-2006, 05:02 AM

scientologist after making strides to enter the mainstream neutered themselves by releasing the Tom Cruise missile and are now oppressing themselves.

so, problem solved! :p

Juna

04-25-2006, 07:35 AM

Yes, it is not nice. But we are winning the war through the WTO as you yourself posted, the persecution of all groups has gone underground and is much less now that China is part of the WTO. So in this case we used money instead of your methods and look how much better the result is. If you don't like that, then fine, whatever, but it is working.

But I have to say it is not working.

Please read the comment of the most famous lawyer in China:

Gao Zhisheng has spoken out in full support of the two public sources of information about illegal organ harvesting in China, Annie and Peter. The two go by their first names only for fear of reprisal from Chinese Communist Party (CCP) agents.

"As for me, I am full of heartfelt respect for these two sources. Through them, I see humankind's courage in defending justice, and firm determination in protecting conscience and morality. People should support them."

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-24/40781.html

Juna

04-25-2006, 11:40 AM

But a while back supposedly it used to be you couldn't follow religion at all (Marxist thing).

In addition to destroying the physical forms of religion and culture, the CCP has also used its utmost capacity to destroy people’s spiritual identity formed by faith and culture.

Take the CCP’s treatment of ethnic beliefs for example. The CCP considered the traditions of the Hui Muslim group to be one of the “Four Olds”—old thought, culture, tradition, habit. Therefore, it forced the Hui people to eat pork. Muslim peasants and mosques were required to raise pigs, and each household had to furnish two pigs to the country every year. The Red Guards even forced the second highest Tibetan living Buddha, the Panchen Lama, to eat human excrement. They ordered three monks from Temple of Bliss located in Harbin city, Heilongjiang Province, which is the biggest Buddhist temple built in modern times (1921), to hold a poster board that said, “The hell with sutras—they are full of ****.”

In 1971, Lin Biao [70], the Vice Chairman of the CCP’s central committee, attempted to escape China but was killed when his plane crashed in Undurkhan, Mongolia. Later, in Lin’s Beijing residence at Maojiawan, some Confucian quotations were found. The CCP then started a frantic movement of “Criticizing Confucius.” A writer pen-named Liang Xiao [71] published an article in The Red Flag, the CCP’s banner magazine, entitled “Who is Confucius?” The article described Confucius as a “madman who wanted to turn history backward,” and a “deceptive and shrewd demagogue.” A series of cartoons and songs followed, demonizing Confucius.

In this way, the dignity and sacredness of religion and culture were annihilated.

A good article for your reference.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-20/25087.html

Juna

04-25-2006, 12:41 PM

GLW

04-25-2006, 02:15 PM

Juna,

your own post mentioned the thousands of people that gathered at Tiananmen Square....and you yourself CLAIMED to have been there.

If you have 10,000+ people gather to bring any government's attention to an issue, that, my dear sir IS A DEMONSTRATION....

As in Anti-War Demonstration, Civil Rights Demonstration, Peace Demonstration, etc...

In the US, back in 1932, Gen. Douglas MacArthur led troops to disperse the Bonus Army (injuring many and killing 4) and there were thousands there. They were demonstrating to get their BONUSES that were promised them for serving in WWI. (Of course, MacArthur claimed that most of them were Communists and Oh...my word...Pacifists)

So, the US governmet has a history of dealing harshly with DEMONSTRATIONS.

Read for content and you will know that no one was referring to a demonstration of Falun Gong postures....

They were there...they did not have a permit to hold such an event (and that would be enough to have riot police out in numbers in the US)...and so, if you do those things, you ARE involved in protesting against a government. If you protest against a government said government usually DOES react in a negative fashion.

Thanks for proving my point by your own words.

GLW

04-25-2006, 02:18 PM

Mr. Li did not want the Chinese government to feel upset????

Your kidding, right?

GLW

04-25-2006, 02:22 PM

"In Falun Gong, no one has the right to order others. No namelist, no office, no fees.

Falun gong practitioners regard the Fa(Law) as teacher."

How convenient...no member list so youhave to be caught in the act. No fees...right.....so exactly HOW DOES Li support himself. Exactly how do the pamphlets and web sites get paid for.

Maybe they are NOT fees per se...but they are requesting donations.

And if no one teaches, no wonder there are so many space cadets in it...

Juna

04-25-2006, 02:27 PM

Juna,

your own post mentioned the thousands of people that gathered at Tiananmen Square....and you yourself CLAIMED to have been there.

If you have 10,000+ people gather to bring any government's attention to an issue, that, my dear sir IS A DEMONSTRATION.... .

I donot know if you really know China's situation.

In China, ccp has set up a set of offices to deal with the mass' appeal, Near Zhong Nanhai, there was a appeal office, because of the unfair treatment, some practitioners went there to appeal, that is not demonstration. 10,000 people believed that the government would be just, is that good for the government? No one organized, if you say there were must be someone organized, that was the security policemen who lead the practitioners to different position.

No poster, no slogan, no ultra behavior, just stood there, is that a demonstration? no.

lkfmdc

04-25-2006, 02:49 PM

http://image.versiontracker.com/scrnsht/44162/237452/593FalunGong_to_Scientology.png

neilhytholt

04-25-2006, 03:28 PM

http://image.versiontracker.com/scrnsht/44162/237452/593FalunGong_to_Scientology.png

You should warn people not to look at that at work for fear of too loud of laughing.

GLW

04-25-2006, 03:42 PM

Allrighty then...according to Juna, 10,000 people gathering in one place to ask for a redress from their government is NOT - I repeat NOT - a DEMONSTRATION....

And since there is no organization and no leader, they all got together there by word of mouth in a short time and NO ONE put the idea in their minds and NO ONE told them where to go...in all of China, people just naturally go to Tiananmn Square for such things.

And pigs fly.

There are web sites, news letters, pamphets, brochures, etc....and NO one pays for them and and no one gives money.

And I suppose that Li Hongzhi puts all of the money he gets from the sale of his books and such BACK into helping others....

And of course, simply becaause you can read things from various sources and don't buy either the PRC line OR the Falun Gong line, you don't know anything about the PRC.

I WOULD start to list the logical fallacies used in Juna's posts...but I don't like to write dissertations for sheeple.

SimonM

04-25-2006, 04:54 PM

I donot know if you really know China's situation.
<snip>

No poster, no slogan, no ultra behavior, just stood there, is that a demonstration? no.

I live in China right now. I am quite aware of "china's situation". This would be considered a demonstration. It really doesn't matter that they didn't have posters or slogans. That is inconsequential.

neilhytholt

04-25-2006, 06:10 PM

Chinese cities are so populated that if 10,000 people gathered in a square in China, you could tell it was weird, because there were so few people, right? ;)

Juna

04-26-2006, 02:34 AM

people just naturally go to Tiananmn Square for such things.

There are web sites, news letters, pamphets, brochures, etc....and NO one pays for them and and no one gives money.

not Tiananmen Square, it is quite some distance to the Square, that place is the appeal office!

Practitioners print the pamphlets and pay if they want to. Not donation, just use our own money and time to clarify the truth.

Juna

04-26-2006, 02:38 AM

Chinese cities are so populated that if 10,000 people gathered in a square in China, you could tell it was weird, )

Not normal, because some innocent practitioners had been arrested and ill treated, so some among 100million practitioners went to the appeal office.

Simple, isn't it?

Juna

04-29-2006, 03:42 AM

Since its public introduction in May 1992, Falun Dafa has attracted over 100 million practitioners worldwide in just ten years. Falun Dafa cultivation emphasizes that one should conduct oneself according to the principle of "Truth-Compassion-Tolerance". Regardless of gender and age, regardless of nationality and race, every practitioner who persistently cultivates his/her heart and practices the exercises has benefited tremendously. Constant diligent cultivation has brought significant changes to many practitioners in both physical conditions and moral values. At the same time, Falun Dafa is gaining worldwide understanding and appreciation, especially in Asia, Australia, Europe, and North America.
Listed below are some awards issued by some local governments and organizations in China, Canada, US and other countries in recognition of the extraordinary contribution made by Master Li Hong Zhi and Falun Dafa to people's mental and physical health. Just as Master Li Hong Zhi said in Chicago in June 1999, "a practitioner takes worldly fame lightly. The award has no special meaning to myself; but to Falun Dafa, the meaning of the award is profound. It represents the understanding and recognition of Falun Dafa by human beings and society." He hopes that more kindhearted people will join the path of cultivating Falun Gong

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/recognition.html

The whole world knows Falun Gong is good.

GLW

04-29-2006, 09:57 PM

and I thought that if we ignored him he would just fade away...

Now Juna is posting responses to his own posts...

And to use his own words "The whole world knows that" this is true...

So...when did he canvas the whole world?:eek:

Juna

04-30-2006, 01:52 AM

I found this on a website:

"Falun Gong has been honored with over 900 proclamations and awards from Australia, Canada, China (before the Persecution), Japan, Russia, the United States and other countries. Especially in the United States, Falun Dafa has received much praise and acclamation.

For the first few years after introducing Falun Gong, Li Hongzhi was granted several awards by Chinese governmental organizations. At the Asian health expo of 1992 and 1993 in Beijing, Falun Gong was successively nominated as the "star qigong".

Falun Gong has been honored with over 900 proclamations and awards from Australia, Canada, China (before the persecution), Japan, Russia, the United States and other countries. Especially in the United States, Falun Dafa has received much praise and acclamation. How meaningful these municipal awards are and how they are used to promote the Falun Gong are matters of some controversy.

Recognition recieved from the Qi Gong Community include that from Master Da Liu, the Master who introduced Tai-Chi to America. He said at the age of 95 that he now asks all his students to practice Falun Gong.

Mr. Li Hongzhi was nominated for the 2001 Nobel Peace Prize by nearly 600 professors and government officials from 21 countries. Mr. Li was also nominated in 2001 by 28 European Parliament members for the Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought."

SimonM

04-30-2006, 07:51 AM

by nearly 600 professors and government officials

Wow! 600 people! That's like... the Whole World!!! :eek:

No... Wait... there are somewhere in the neighbourhood of 5,000,000,000 people on earth... That's actually 0.000012% of the world's population. :rolleyes:

GLW

04-30-2006, 09:16 AM

He forgets to note that in the same nomination, Fidel Casro was also nominated for a Nobel peace prize...and nominations are not all that ig a deal...the WINNING of the award IS.

He also fails to note it was in 2001.

jethro

04-30-2006, 01:36 PM

so, is this like the phoenix university of martial arts?

jethro

04-30-2006, 09:13 PM

https://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3320&d=1146387135

it only has 1 view, since I looked at it, I guess that's it. But I guarantee you this is worth a good laugh.

If it doesn't come through cause I suck at computers, than it is like 2or 3 posts up^.

Juna

05-01-2006, 02:12 AM

He also fails to note it was in 2001.

Listed below are some awards issued by some local governments and organizations in China, Canada, US and other countries in recognition of the extraordinary contribution made by Master Li Hong Zhi and Falun Dafa to people's mental and physical health. Just as Master Li Hong Zhi said in Chicago in June 1999, "a practitioner takes worldly fame lightly. The award has no special meaning to myself; but to Falun Dafa, the meaning of the award is profound. It represents the understanding and recognition of Falun Dafa by human beings and society." He hopes that more kindhearted people will join the path of cultivating Falun Gong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Australia/
New Zealand Canada China Europe Japan Taiwan USA

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New Zealand
February 24, 2001 Photo report: Hamilton - the first city in New Zealand to proclaim Falun Dafa Day
Australia
February, 2002 Mayor of the City of Parramatta, Australia Proclaims "Falun Dafa Day" (Photo)
January 30, 2002 Falun Dafa Day in Mossman, Queensland, Australia, January 30, 2002
January 29, 2002 Falun Dafa Day Celebrated in Mareeba, Queensland, Australia on January 29, 2002
January 21, 2002 State MP Launches "Falun Dafa Week" in Cairns, Queensland, Australia 21-27 January 2002
January 15, 2002 Photo Report: Falun Dafa Day, Innisfail, Queensland, Australia
January 12, 2002 Photo Report: Falun Dafa Day, Ayr, Queensland, Australia
January 10, 2002 Australia: The City of Prosperpine Proclaims January 10th as Falun Dafa Day
January 8, 2002 Australia: MP of Queensland, Dr. John Kingston, Proclaims January 8th in Maryborough as Falun Dafa Day
January 7, 2002 Mayor of Gympie City, Queensland, Australia Writes Appreciation Letter to Falun Gong Practitioners
January 7, 2002 Mayor of Gympie City, Queensland, Australia Proclaims Falun Dafa Day
January 7, 2002 Member of Parliament of Queensland, Australia Proclaims Falun Dafa Day
December 16, 2001 Australia: The Mayor of Noosa Shire, Mr. Bob Abbot, Proclaims the Week of December 16-22 in Noosa Shire as Falun Dafa Week
December 17, 2000 Certification of Appreciation of Falun Dafa Day, City of Penrith, Australia [12/17/00]
November 18, 2000 Falun Dafa Day in Australia (11/24/00)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canada
May 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, City of Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada [May, 2004]
May 2004 Greetings from the Mayor of Vancouver to Falun Dafa Association of Canada on the Occasion of the 12th Anniversary of Falun Dafa's Introduction to the Public [May 2004]
May 13, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Day, Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia, Canada [May 13, 2004]
May 11, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, City of Port Alberni, British Columbia, Canada [May 11, 2004]
May 10, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month Honoring Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance, City of Port Coquitlam, Canada [May 10, 2004]
May 5, 2004 Proclamation of World Falun Dafa Month, the Corporation of the District of Central Saanich, British Columbia, Canada [May 5, 2004]
May 3, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, Village of Belcarra, British Columbia, Canada [May 3, 2004]
May 3, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, Village of Cumberland, British Columbia, Canada [May 3, 2004]
May 3, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, City of Duncan, British Columbia, Canada [May 3, 2004]
May 3, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, Town of Ladysmith, British Columbia, Canada [May 3, 2004]
May 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, District of Langford, British Columbia, Canada [May 2004]
April 27, 2004 Canada: Mayor of the City of Port Moody Proclaims Falun Dafa Month Honouring Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance [April 27, 2004]
April 27, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, City of Parksville, British Columbia, Canada [April 27, 2004]
April 27, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, City of Port Moody, Canada [April 27, 2004]
April 22, 2004 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, Town of Sidney, British Columbia, Canada [April 22, 2004]
May 13, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Week Honoring Truthfulness-Benevolence-Forbearance, City of Port Moody, Canada [May 13, 2003]
May 12, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Week, City of Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada [May 12, 2003]
May 12, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Week, Halifax Regional Municipality, Canada [May 12, 2003]
May 12, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Week, Town of Morinville, Canada [May 12-18, 2003]
May 8, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Week, City of Victoria, British Columbia, Canada [May 8, 2003]
May 7, 2003 Proclamation of World Falun Dafa Day, Corporation of the District of Central Saanich, British Columbia, Canada [May 7, 2003]
May 5, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Week, City of Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada [May 5, 2003]
May 5, 2003 Mayor of Canadian City of Melfort Dub Henderson Congratulates the 11th Anniversary of Falun Dafa's Introduction to the Public [May 5, 2003]
May 5, 2003 Mayor of Canadian City of Swift Current Paul Elder Congratulates the 11th Anniversary of Falun Dafa's Introduction to the Public [May 5, 2003]
May, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Day, City of Grande Prairie, Canada [May, 2003]
April 28, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, City of Armstrong, British Columbia, Canada [April 28, 2003]
April 28, 2003 Mayor of Canadian Town of Moosomin Don Bradley Congratulates the 11th Anniversary of Falun Dafa's Introductory to Public [April 28, 2003]
April 28, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Day, City of Oshawa, Canada [April 28, 2003]
April 22, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Week Honoring Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance, District of Highlands, British Columbia, Canada [April 22, 2003]
April 17, 2003 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Day, The Regional Municipality of Wood Buffalo, Canada [April 17, 2003]
May 13, 2002 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, the District of Central Saanich, British Columnbia, Canada [May 13, 2002]
May, 2002 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, Morinville, Canada [May, 2002]
May, 2002 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month Honoring Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance, City of Parksville, British Columbia, Canada [May, 2002]
May, 2002 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, City of Belcarra, British Columbia, Canada [May 2002]
May, 2002 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, City of Wood Buffalo, Alberta, Canada [May 2002]
May, 2002 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month, City of Duncan, British Columbia, Canada [May 2002]
May, 2002 Proclamation of Falun Dafa Month Honoring Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance, Township of Cumberland, British Columbia, Canada [May 2002]
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 as "Falun Dafa Month for Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance" by Mayor of the Town of View Royal, Canada
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 as "Falun Dafa Month for Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance" by Mayor of the Town of Sidney, Canada
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 as "Falun Dafa Month for Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance" by Mayor of the City of Colwood, Canada
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 as "Falun Dafa Month for Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance" by Mayor of the District of Highlands, Canada
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 as "Falun Dafa Month Honoring Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance" By Mayor of City of Grande Prairie, Canada
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 as "Falun Dafa Month Honoring Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance" By Mayor of Village of Cumberland, BC, Canada
May, 2002 Proclamation of "Falun Dafa Month Honoring Truth-Compassion-Forbearance"by Mayor of City of Duncan, BC
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 as "Falun Dafa Month Honoring Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance" by Mayor of City of Armstrong, BC, Canada
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 As "Falun Dafa Month" by Mayor of Village of Belcarra, BC, Canada
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 as "Falun Dafa Month Honoring Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance" by Mayor of City of Parksville, BC, Canada
May, 2002 Proclamation of May 2002 as "Falun Dafa Month" by Mayor of City of Cranbrook, BC, Canada

Above are not got in 2001, more here:

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/recognition.html

David Jamieson

05-01-2006, 06:35 AM

For a zombie, you type well.

TenTigers

05-01-2006, 06:57 AM

The main reason Falun Gong has taken off, is that we forget so soon. Look how soon people forgot 911. There is a whole generation of people who never experienced the Moonies, Hare Krishna,Guru Maharaj-ji, Children of God,etc Falun Gong operates the same way terrorist cells operate. They install smal "cells" near all the campuses of the colleges and Universities, preying on the young, uninformed,alone,confused kids. They are alone away from their parents for the first time in their lives. They have no idea of what the real world exactly is. They are searching. And then they find this group. They seem happy, friendly, and they use the catch=phrase of the millenium-Ch'i-Gung.
The other group are the tree-hugging, granola-munching new-agers, searching for something to belong to, as well as the old hippies, who still don't "get it".
Nobody has bothered to do a search on the History of the founder of this CULT.
That he was an investment banker, and not some enlightened Guru?
How quickly we forget.

TonyM.

05-01-2006, 07:10 AM

Thanks for reminding me of the moonies. A couple moved in next door a few months ago. A few years ago a young ladywith the moonies aproached me about signing a petition banning communism in the U.S. I explained that while I don't agree with communism, banning it is un-American. She did not understand. Her lack of personnal understanding was case in point of my dislike of cults. I think Dylan said it best. "Don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters."

David Jamieson

05-01-2006, 11:12 AM

empty head evangelism is just what this forum needs more of!

go juna! lol

It's not often we get entertained by such an open mind that the brain has fallen out!

jethro

05-05-2006, 02:18 PM

I wanna see like all million of them all piled together like that last picture:p

GLW

05-05-2006, 05:12 PM

Juna

05-06-2006, 01:17 PM

Now, I can't say if the report of the organ harvesting is true, false, accurate, exaggerated, or what....

But, it mentions a "Chinese military doctor" but no names, no corroboration, nothing that would pass for investigative journalism...except maybe in Colbert's version of the Bush media.

After the Chinese communist regime denied extracting organs from living Falun Gong practitioners at the Thrombosis Hospital of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine in Sujiatun, The Epoch Times interviewed two sources . These sources urged investigation of labor camps throughout China where Falun Gong practitioners are detained. Falun Gong practitioners were transferred to and detained at the Sujiatun Thrombosis Hospital because all the labor camps were full at the time. Now the Chinese communist regime has removed all evidence from Sujiatun. Below is the interview conducted by The Epoch Times :

https://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-23/40735.html

Two sources have already come to the public.

GLW

05-06-2006, 03:26 PM

Hardly a reliable source...can't you get an INDEPENDENT source for your information or propaganda...

from the Wikipedia:

"The Epoch Times (Simplified Chinese: 大纪元; Traditional Chinese: 大紀元; Pinyin: Dàjìyuán) is a Falun Gong-linked [1], politically conservative (by US standards) Chinese newspaper distributed free-of-charge in roughly 30 countries worldwide and translated in more than ten languages. Billed by its publisher as "independent," the newspaper claims to have a special strength in its coverage of China and human rights issues, and frequently contains articles with strongly opinionated views on the Communist Party of China, mainland Chinese society, and groups against the CCP, especially Falun Gong. The authencity and neutrality of the paper has often caught criticism."

Juna, you fail to understand that while there may or may not be humanitarian issues here, it is next to impossible for a person to rely on your "resources" and reports to make a any sort of call on what is happening.

Your sources on the efficacy of Falun Gong are testimonials. Testimonials are used by people to sell snake oil and timeshares too.... so...they do you no good as they are from the outset suspect

You quote internet sources on things that ca be seen to be thoroughly connected to Falun Gong. That is hardly an unbiased source.

PErhaps if you wish to influence people in a positive way you might cease to be a frog in a well and look for NON-Falun Gong sources.

At present, no one would be able to tell if your and the links you posted had valid claims or if they were simply negative testimonials against the CCP...

David Jamieson

05-07-2006, 09:00 AM

GLW- It's clear this one has already bought the product and is hesitant to admit to himself or herself that they made a stupid move.

No one likes to be regarded as stupid and will defend themselves to the bitter end when accused of being stupid or ignorant of facts and truths...at which point they will move on and tell the new people they encounter how close minded and stupid everyone else was for not believing him/her.

seen it before, will see it again.

Juna doesn't understand that origin source articles are not evidence, they are self agendized propoganda.

Juna doesn't understand the concept of reliable third party independent review apparently.

Juna doesn't understand the true nature of the subject he has chosen to be a proponent of.

Which is exactly how FG likes it's followers. That is to say "sold on the idea and ignorant of the reality".

maybe he/she'll go away now and bother someone else with this nonsense. I vote s/he goes to M.a.p where the ignorance levels are high and the idiot count is higher. :p

Juna

05-10-2006, 12:07 PM

from the Wikipedia:

"The Epoch Times
...

The Epoch Times Wins Prize for Human Rights Reporting

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-5-10/41381.html

Good news !

lkfmdc

05-11-2006, 01:51 PM

If you ever wanted concrete evidence of the damage that Falun can do to a perfectly good human mind, I'd say Juna is exhibit #1 :rolleyes:

jethro

05-11-2006, 02:21 PM

juna writes posts that have to take like 4 days to write. It's pretty easy to do when you are posting from the falun insane asylum.

chud

05-11-2006, 03:12 PM

I read today that Baidu, China's largest search engine, is launching its own version of Wikipedia called Baidupedia, which will be censored. Entries to Baidupedia will have to pass through a filter because Baidupedia bars users from including any 'malicious evaluation of the current national system', any 'attack on government institutions', and prevents the 'promotion of a dispirited or negative view of life'.

David Jamieson

05-11-2006, 03:52 PM

China is commie. Get used to it.
The whole world can't be white bread now can it?

One can be pluralist without being relativist.

Falun Gong is an upstart political party.

problem is, they started up in the wrong place.
apparently, they don't seem to grasp trends, histories or the workings of the oldest civilization on the planet.

so, there is clearly an error in thinking on FD's behalf despite what we who live in democracies, benign dictatorships or kingdoms may think.

I can understand how some Chinese feel distressed at the state of their government and country. I can understand that for anyone anywhere really.
FD just lies a lot though and throws out nonsense as if it were truth and cannot substantiate too large an amount of what they go on about.

their not worth listening to really. Even if they think they're doing something what they are really doing is tarnishing themselves with all their propaganda. They really aren't that different from what they profess to hate.

at least China is making gradual change. FD is singing the same song that lacks concrete evidence...over and over again and ross is right. Juna is a good example of what can happen to a perfectly normal mind when it's washed with such things as FD, or Jonestown, or other culty mindwash outfits.

SimonM

05-13-2006, 10:45 PM

Juna seems to have retreated to a fantasy world entirely. On page 13 of a thread that is entirely composed of him quoting the epoch times and others telling him he is a brainwashed tool he pops up with his standard "Falun Gong oppressed" opener.

tug

05-13-2006, 10:49 PM

There are too many quotes to reference, so I'm gonna say AGREED to all.

Well, except Juna. We've been through this before.

neilhytholt

05-13-2006, 11:42 PM

You know, this thing with this group.

You know, this is in another country besides the USA. I have no idea who to investigate their claims, let alone get any third party validation of it.

Basically, there's absolutely nothing I can do to verify if any of these people are being persecuted, or not being persecuted.

So what can we really do from here, Juna? What do you want us to do? There is nothing we can do.

Maybe these people should just lie low for a while and not belong to this group if they are being persecuted. I mean, we've got enough trouble in the USA with politics and stupid things, and governments that are running up huge deficits and fighting stupid wars.

IMHO we are little people, and what we do doesn't matter. If we decide to join controversial groups and stir up trouble we are just asking for trouble. Maybe the people in this group should just stop doing it. Is it really that important to them that they'd risk life and limb? If so, then they know what they're signing up for.

Sad but true. It's not like a race where you can't help it. This appears to be something they decide to do and be a part of.

Basically it doesn't seem like this is any of ours fight. If we were fighting for something, maybe we should fight for better education for U.S. citizens or lower budget deficits or lower trade deficits.

jethro

05-14-2006, 03:52 PM

The final battle is coming. Falun vs. the world.

Royal Dragon

05-14-2006, 05:04 PM

Personally, if Fauling Gong is being persecuted, and NONE of the other people who follow EVERY OTHER Qi Gong method are, I'd have to say there is some thing wrong with Faulin Gong as a whole. It must be a Qi Gong that attracts bad energy.

I think I am better off sticking to my Taiji Ruler Qi Gong. It gives all the same bennifits, and everyone loves Taiji Ruler guys. :p

(Well, no one seems to hate us anyway!! ;) )

Juna

05-16-2006, 07:11 AM

Basically, there's absolutely nothing I can do to verify if any of these people are being persecuted, or not being persecuted. .

There was progress towards reform in some areas, but this failed to have a significant impact on serious and widespread human rights violations perpetrated across the country. Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights and were at high risk of torture or ill-treatment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed, many after unfair trials. Public protests increased against forcible evictions and land requisition without adequate compensation. China continued to use the global “war on terrorism” to justify its crackdown on the Uighur community in Xinjiang. Freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted in Tibet and other Tibetan areas of China.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/chn-summary-eng

Here you can read the report.

jethro

05-16-2006, 03:45 PM

just messing with you man, but you do kind of scare me. I am trying to picture you, I see you face looking very wooden and painted and strings guiding your typing hands. Do you know who is controlling you? I can try and break you outta there man.

neilhytholt

05-16-2006, 04:39 PM

It's hard to say. China is kindof my hero for its 1-child policy and the forced abortions and sterilizations and all that.

There are just too many fricking people in the world.

But IMHO they should allow more religious freedom.

RiceWine

05-16-2006, 09:48 PM

I hate to stir up the bloody hornet's nest with this one...but i was reading an old issue of KungFu Magazine wherein Falun Gong was referred to as a "nefarious radical movement". Albeit that the Tao says not to contend, and since they are viewed as contentious, therefore should disappear; all I have read in regards to this is mostly China torturing and killing men woman and children who practice this philosophy and exercise. I would really like to hear both sides of the story, and regardless of the nuances, people are being hurt and I think attention should be focused on this.
Thank you.

They are like the KKK in China.

They don't believe in mixing races. And refer to the pureness of it as something that is needed for entry into heaven.

Additionally, interracial relationships are not okay.

They preach freedom and democracy to court US and other Western countries, but that is bull****.

neilhytholt

05-17-2006, 09:00 AM

peace

Hate to say it, Juna, but there are a ton of quotes all around of where Li said that mixing races is bad, etc. Evidently he even said that aliens are trying control the earth through science and cloning.

With views like these, it will probably be hard to gain support for your group.

Are we quoting out of context? Or are these his real words?

Juna

05-17-2006, 11:27 AM

Are we quoting out of context? Or are these his real words?

Wrong interpreting can mislead people's thinking.

So, if one wants to know the teaching of Falun Gong, go and read the original books.

peace.

neilhytholt

05-17-2006, 12:34 PM

Wrong interpreting can mislead people's thinking.

That is the trick of ccp's agents and certain persons with ulterior motives.

So, if one wants to know the teaching of Falun Gong, go and read the original books.

peace.

Well, unless the CCP is controlling www.falundafa.org, here is what is on there. Sounds pretty farfetched, doesn't it? I definitely wouldn't want somebody believing this stuff to have control of anything or any political power.

"Over the ages, these alien beings have continually been developing and metamorphosing. So in this universe there have really appeared the abnormal social relations that these kinds of lives have. Greed and lust have caused something like star wars to actually happen over where they live. They haven’t yet threatened humankind because humankind doesn’t have the ability to pose a threat to them. So they haven’t attacked humankind. They would attack humankind if you were to threaten them. Although alien beings haven’t attacked humankind, they know that a human body is the most perfect. They’ve thus taken a fancy to the human body and want to steal it. They saturate all domains of humankind with science to make human beings firmly believe in science and rely on it. When human beings’ thoughts and way of existence are completely assimilated to theirs, they just have to replace people’s souls and humans will become them, and they will eventually replace the human race.

It’s a long story. They have been coming here full-scale since the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution in the West. They had come prior to that time, but they didn’t control people then. Their full-scale arrival began when Caucasian society entered the industrial age. They made full preparations and systematic arrangements for occupying this earth. It was they who created science for human beings. So this science was set up by aliens. Their purpose was to unify human beings and simplify their thoughts to the point of being as uniform as machines. And they unified knowledge to make it easy for them to later on control and replace human beings. Furthermore, they’ve chosen a few nationalities as the vanguards of their future, total control of humankind. Japan is the vanguard that drives technology. The United States is the vanguard in breaking away from all ancient cultures on earth. The cultures of even the most ancient and closed-off nations haven’t been able to escape. The whole world is being impacted by America’s modern culture. England was the vanguard in the manufacture of machinery during the early stages, and Spain was the vanguard for mixing the human races. The way alien beings get human beings to shake free of the gods is to mix the races, causing human beings to become rootless people, just like the plant hybrids people make nowadays. South Americans, Central Americans, Mexicans and some people in South East Asia—all of these races have been mixed. None of this can evade the gods’ eyes. Alien beings have made rather extensive preparations for overtaking human beings."

neilhytholt

05-17-2006, 12:42 PM

Anyway, I can't say anything bad about anybody's religion.

BUT, that doesn't mean I have to agree with their religion. Make sense? Everybody I talk to seems utterly convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that their religion is the correct one.

It stands to reason they are not all correct, especially since their beliefs conflict.

Therefore, IMHO, people should keep their religious practice to themselves, and not prosthetylize, and not bother anyone else with their religion, and not try to enforce their religious beliefs onto others (even their own children or immediate family), not try to make their religion a political agenda, not fight with others over religion, or start wars over religion.

Of course, pretty much nobody ever does this. LOL

Anyways, I am going to ignore Falun Gong until they take over the world and are persecuting me. Which likely they will do if they are like any other religion.

GLW

05-18-2006, 01:32 PM

There are enough crazy things in the first 20 or 30 pages of the Falun Dafa book that most could see a pattern there.

Governments supporting them...get real...The US supports them in words because it is a tool to get China to agree to other things. It is a tool only. Want to see how far the support goes...do a Falun Gong group in the US heartland with Li on hand to talk his brand of stuff.

Such raging generalizations do nothing to further your ideas or cause. Same with quoting Epoch times.

Such a bore.

TaiChiBob

05-19-2006, 05:09 AM

Greetings..

As with so many religions, there is this aire of "mystical interpretation".. where only the approved disciples can correctly interpret.. Hogwash! if a religion is valid, it will communicate in simple straightforward manners, not some cryptic metaphorical mumbo-jumbo..

I have read Falun Gong's books.. been to their seminars.. and intuit the lack of validity. Truth is revealed to each of us through our own inherent knowing. Followers of contrived religions (Falun Gong, as one example) deceive themselves with the desire to let others have the responsibility for their existence.. too weak to claim their own birthright as sentient beings with unlimited potential..

Be well...

SimonM

05-20-2006, 09:12 PM

No. It's really not any good at all.

neilhytholt

05-20-2006, 09:37 PM

Not every one can accept the truth, but every can know Falun Dafa is good to the world.

No offense to religion, but don't reading stuff like this just make you want to rip your eyes out?

It's this kind of thinking, turn brain off, blindly follow somebody, that allows people like Hitler or Mao to create the kind of movements they do.

You know, I have to say that before I came into this, I thought that Falun Gong was a harmless little group. After this thread and going through their material, IMHO they're just another evil death cult.

Royal Dragon

05-20-2006, 09:41 PM

neilhytholt

05-20-2006, 09:45 PM

In all honesty, I never really understood Faulin Dafa, or it's persecution untill now.

The more i see, the more I realise it's a pretty twisted movement, and I see it's not at all about some estoric, misunderstood Qi Gong practice

Are they so ready to attach to some new leader now that China's finally opened up a bit? I guess Mao wasn't enough for them, they just have to follow somebody else.

I am pro religious freedom, but it seems to just create sheep. My own father is so into religion that he's basically nutso. I mean, the second you turn your mind off you just turn into sheeple, like a zombie. Worse than a horror movie because it's real life.

Edit ...

Basically what it seems like is a large portion of the population out there, enjoys persecuting others, and enjoys foisting their beliefs onto others. They just have to follow something, and they just have to make everyone else follow that as well.

Well if you want me to vote for and to support your movement, then you better THINK and use your brain, not just follow people like a blind moron. I'm sure not supporting this FG movement because it's obvious that a) it's wrong and b) it's creating sheeple therefore c) it's dangerous.

Royal Dragon

05-20-2006, 09:59 PM

Agreed............................................ .................................................. .........................

SimonM

05-21-2006, 12:10 AM

Right on RD and neilhythold.

David Jamieson

05-21-2006, 08:38 AM

vote for me and I will cure your illness that you have gotten from excess and decrease in this world.

It is very simple method involving water and holding your breath for a very long time.

the silence that follows is profound.

It's that, or there is another method where the sun shines on your entrails happily.

so, which will it be?

a or b? there is no other way and it is a happy thing.

:p

Royal Dragon

05-21-2006, 02:26 PM

Juna,
Practically ALL Qi Gong helps people improve thier health, and help heal for diseases that might otherwise kill them. Faulin Dafa is nothing special in that reguard. Why would one wish to follow such a movement, and endure pointless persecution, when they can just practice a more main stream form of Qi Gong?

jethro

05-21-2006, 02:45 PM

Falun Dafa gives people a healthy body and peaceful mind, and a lot more.[/QUOTE]

juna, you are having troubles on here man. I haven't read all 15 pages(I mean yuo are a little insane), but you are having trouble keeping up with all the critisism. Even the founder simon m who brought this religion to earth says it sucks. Why don't you bring MORE evidnece, not some stupid evil cult website, but how about an actual person, that is if you could possibly find people who can give better comments than the one you just gave up there^

SimonM

05-21-2006, 04:13 PM

Even the founder simon m who brought this religion to earth says it sucks.

What?

Founder? Brought this religion to earth?

Dude what strain of pot are you smoking? And can I have some please?

jethro

05-21-2006, 05:49 PM

No. It's really not any good at all.

sorry man, I know you are kind of embarrassed over this whole falun craze that you started. At least you admit it sucks:p

SimonM

05-21-2006, 08:13 PM

Ok. You've found me out.

I am Li Hongzhi.

See I just wanted a way to keep those **** white english teachers away from the Chinese women because I couldn't get a date so I invented a religion that said it was all an alien plot to steal our boides. I never expected it to go this far. :o

jethro

05-21-2006, 08:30 PM

it was easy to figure out. juna carefully didn't post any pics of the founder. But when you was tryign to make it in the cult world before starting fulun you kidnapped my sister once and I rescued her so I have seen you and recognized your avatar. Plus many people must not have seen the movie Men In Black so it is understandable nobody else caught on, but you exposed yourself too early. How is Juna doing? Are you feeding him?

Now try and make sense out of that. :eek:

Juna

05-22-2006, 11:49 AM

Juna,
Why would one wish to follow such a movement, and endure pointless persecution, when they can just practice a more main stream form of Qi Gong?

Assimilating the the nature of the universe--to be true, good and endure, and return to one's original, true self.

David Jamieson

05-22-2006, 12:12 PM

Assimilating the the nature of the universe--to be true, good and endure, and return to one's original, true self.

and you figure FD is the path to that end?

In which case it becomes a matter of "whatever floats yer boat".

FD is certainly not the only method of attaining an inner quietness and I would argue that this is not the purpose or genuine agenda of the movement to begin with.

a wolf in sheeps clothing is a good analogy in my opinion. much like it is your opinion that it is helpful.

neilhytholt

05-22-2006, 01:08 PM

FD is certainly not the only method of attaining an inner quietness and I would argue that this is not the purpose or genuine agenda of the movement to begin with.

a wolf in sheeps clothing is a good analogy in my opinion. much like it is your opinion that it is helpful.

Yeah, I got a call this weekend from someone that I used to know trying to get me to join FG. Anyway the bottom line is that he was part of the 'Free Tibet' movement a while back, and when I really prodded him, his purpose for joining with FG is to be a thorn in China's side. He even went over there to protest and got arrested and stuff.

Honestly I'm not interested in politics, but whatever floats his boat, I guess.

jethro

05-23-2006, 02:15 AM

Assimilating the the nature of the universe--to be true, good and endure, and return to one's original, true self.
yes Do You Have Anything Else To Say. Anything!!

SimonM

05-24-2006, 06:15 PM

Tell me Juna what colour is the sky in your paranoid little world?

jethro

05-24-2006, 06:40 PM

Tell me Juna what colour is the sky in your paranoid little world?

Just to let you know colours I think refers to flags on this planet. I am sure that juna has posted it. LoL:p (just thinking of juna reading all this).

neilhytholt

05-24-2006, 08:16 PM

Just to let you know colours I think refers to flags on this planet. I am sure that juna has posted it. LoL:p (just thinking of juna reading all this).

Yeah, now we're all agents of China, eh, Juna? Going to be awfully tough getting a security clearance now! ROTFLMAO

SimonM

05-24-2006, 10:25 PM

Mabey Juna is the PRC agent. He's trying to lure dissidents out into the open with his FLG schtick. :p

David Jamieson

05-25-2006, 06:57 AM

undercover commentators is a lot easier on their apparently fragile minds.

Because having to deal with the truth that regular day to day people aren;t buying their particular brand of sh1t is too hard to conceptualize and bad for their self image that they try to perpetuate of themselves as bing harmless and ever compassionate.

which is of course a crock of crap as deep and wide as Li Hongzi's original motivation for selling his story to these folks to begin with.

This is why you shouldn't be a tightwad or close with what you share in martial arts. If you are open and generous, you will havce the opportunity to save one of these mental burnouts from falling into a cult such as FG.

There are a great many people pecentage wise that are open to these ideas and believe with all their hearts and minds that what they are doing is right. I mean, Look at republicans. :p hahaha, just kidding.

It is just another form of not accepting accountability and responsibility for your own life and your own actions because of your desperate fear of being alone.

This stems from not understanding that you are never alone and there is always someone who will help you. Sometimes it's a stranger and other times it is someone who loves you dearly. When you disconnect enough into a delusory world of self absorption, these groups become more and more appealing to you and feed your mind in return with exactly what you want to hear.

I'm sure that a lot of falun gong people are very nice people, and I think the venture of trying to shake up China and have them stand up and be more righteous in their humanity is a noble cause.

But the FG applecart was rotten to begin with and only detracts from teh true democracy and human rights movements that are at work to solve the problems in China with real agendas and real accountability.

Just want to point it out.

David Jamieson

05-25-2006, 12:49 PM

Falun Dafa Worldwide

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/32/

The world knows Falun Dafa is good.

Falun Dafa = record that skips at same irritating point in song. lol

Juna

05-30-2006, 01:12 PM

A vice-president of the European Parliament returned last week from a three day investigation into human rights abuses in mainland China.

He is the first high-level western official to personally meet with persecuted Falun Gong practitioners inside China. The facilitator of the gathering, a Boston businessman and Falun Gong practitioner himself, was arrested and deported for "hosting an illegal meeting."

Over the course of several days, Vice-President Edward McMillan-Scott met various Chinese diplomats, experts, and intellectuals. In the mid-1990s, as a member of the EU Committee on Foreign Affairs, McMillan-Scott investigated the Chinese Communist Party's political practices.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-5-28/42032.html

A great politician.

David Jamieson

05-30-2006, 03:04 PM

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-5-28/42032.html

A great politician.

so your motivation is political then?

omarthefish

05-30-2006, 03:51 PM

Are they so ready to attach to some new leader now that China's finally opened up a bit? I guess Mao wasn't enough for them, they just have to follow somebody else.

I am pro religious freedom, but it seems to just create sheep. My own father is so into religion that he's basically nutso. I mean, the second you turn your mind off you just turn into sheeple, like a zombie. Worse than a horror movie because it's real life.

Actually religious freedom does not create sheep so much as the lack thereof. You have two things at work here.

1. The lack of legitimate religious traditions to compete with. People have no basis for comparison so it's not so obvious what a complete and total crock FLG is. Furthermore, the suppression of religious life in general creates a counter-tendency. Religious belief is a pretty instinctive think. It's absense creates a vacuume which will always tend to get filled with something.

2. A population which has been "pre-primed" for cult indoctrination. They are already used to being part of a cult of personality. (Mao) The collectivist educational style as opposed to a more individualist style such as we have in the States (or did when I was in school) makes people easier marks for this sort of thing.

Juna

06-05-2006, 01:35 PM

Edward McMillan-Scott, the vice-president of the European Parliament, was in China for four days from May 20 to 24, 2006. During his stay in China, he met with Falun Gong practitioners and also planned to meet Mr. Gao Zhisheng, the famous human rights attorney, but did not have the chance to do so.

Afterwards, this European political dignitary expressed his views in public about those Falun Gong practitioners who have been missing since the meeting, about the increasing trend of withdrawals from the Chinese communist Party (CCP), and about the CCP's present situation.

On May 29, 2006, Mr. Gao Zhisheng had an interview with The Epoch Times and shared his thoughts on this subject.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-6-2/42237.html

Two moral giant in the world!

neilhytholt

06-05-2006, 01:50 PM

Actually religious freedom does not create sheep so much as the lack thereof. You have two things at work here.

1. The lack of legitimate religious traditions to compete with. People have no basis for comparison so it's not so obvious what a complete and total crock FLG is. Furthermore, the suppression of religious life in general creates a counter-tendency. Religious belief is a pretty instinctive think. It's absense creates a vacuume which will always tend to get filled with something.

2. A population which has been "pre-primed" for cult indoctrination. They are already used to being part of a cult of personality. (Mao) The collectivist educational style as opposed to a more individualist style such as we have in the States (or did when I was in school) makes people easier marks for this sort of thing.

Well I am not going to speak of religion or politics anymore.

David Jamieson

06-05-2006, 01:50 PM

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-6-2/42237.html

Two moral giant in the world!

this is an example of how to put your fingers in yoru ears and chant lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala lalalalalalalalalalalalala in desperation crying out against those who have shown you that what you hold as precious is merely a turd that has petrified.

jethro

06-05-2006, 10:00 PM

this is an example of how to put your fingers in yoru ears and chant lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala lalalalalalalalalalalalala in desperation crying out against those who have shown you that what you hold as precious is merely a turd that has petrified.

But you are right. Since this is one of the few sites I can get at my work(I have asked them to ban it), I read all of juan's crap and it is the same freaking thing. Ohhhhh, gee wiz, Falun Gong is not being liked by people. I think I have asked this about a thousand freaking times juna, GIVE ME SOMETHING ELSE. CUT THE CRAP AND JUST TELL US WHY IT IS SO GOOD. Gosh.

scholar

06-06-2006, 07:08 AM

I donot want to discuss the teaching of Falun Gong, I know there are sure sby cannot believe the teaching. But by reading the original book, one can know Falun Gong teaches people to be good, to assimilate to the nature of the universe, to be true, good and endure, that is good for the society and human beings. That is one reason why so many governments support Falun Gong.

If you don't want to discuss the teachings, then why are you trying to convert people here to your religion? Perhaps because there is no actual substance to the teaching beyond pablum designed to numb the faculties of your intended victims makes them hard to discuss? FLG missionaries often say Li's more loopy ramblings are "misquoted" or "taken out of context" yet the context that he is a racist xenophobe megalomaniac is pretty clear to anyone who actually reads any of his interviews, books or lectures critically.

Li Hongzhi uses repetitive, bland qigong-like exercises to hypnotise his followers, and his followers use repetitive, bland statements to lull the gullible into trying the exercises (for free!) in the hope that the gullible will thereby become hypnotised in turn. As mentioned by other posters here, FLG apologists give no substantive answers to practical questions, they just go on with: "Follow Master Li, Master good..." in response.

My favourite bit is how FLG people say that their qigong is vastly superior to any other form. When I reminded an FLG guy who showed up at one of my classes trying to steal my students that their qigong doesn't allow them to take a punch without damage, whereas my traditional forms can by actually offering to trade punches with him, he backed down saying "We go beyond puny physicality!" I had to ask him if he saw the irony in his saying that he was better at qigong than me when he showed obvious fear and physically backed away when I offered him the opportunity to "prove" how superior FLG was to a "puny" martial qigong... He didn't.

Juna

06-06-2006, 10:40 AM

JUST TELL US WHY IT IS SO GOOD.

Practising Falun Gong gives people the chance to be heathy, and the most important, to return to one's original, true self.

David Jamieson

06-06-2006, 10:59 AM

Do you think whose arm is harder means whose Qigong is better?

A Teacher in Taiwan: My Life Has Been Prolonged by the Miracle of Falun Gong

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2006/5/28/73832.html

how would someone who has not been treated for terminal illness know their life has been prolonged, and if so so what, we all only get so many years and then poof.

One can acquire quality fo life practices without associating with the likes of Li Hongzhi or his cult of personality. Not to mention the twisted politics they dole out, the nonsense they espouse in regards to alien controlling us all and that there is an actual wheel inside you and that you shouldn't seek medical attention when you are ill or afflicted.

Very dangerous thoughts coming from a very deluded group.

Notice how the only sources that concur with Juna's blindness are those directly associated with teh cult itself.

there is no concurance with their views from thrid parties that are not themselves linked to the fg cult.

juna, I know you just want to keep this thread up because everytime it starts to fall off the page, you will post some more crap from your fg website.

so, as long as you do this and seek to drop this poison here, I will respond as quickly as I can with the antidote to your flaky drivel.

thanks for coming out though. :P

scholar

06-06-2006, 01:07 PM

Do you think whose arm is harder means whose Qigong is better?

Practical results speak much louder to the practical than Li's demons and aliens do. Actually, since I do Taijiquan, my arm is technically softer, however...

So, our neigong can do many things Falungong can't, and I can prove it. The physical is the first test. Without physical success, how do we know other claimed results aren't so much snake oil? FLG has only proved itself to be just so much snake oil to my satisfaction.

The Falungong bunch haven't proven anything, FLG is based entirely on faith that Li Hongzhi is greater than the gods, as he claims (although the "living god" turned coward and left his followers to face the heat in China when the CCP made him an outlaw).

That the Falungong cult is led by a coward and its exercises cannot do what any well trained martial artist has been taught to do yet they still insist that it is somehow "better" than "puny physicality" is indeed perfect irony, and a little bit sad.

Li Hongzhi has sold you a fake religion based on his ego, lies, fear and psychic manipulation. I hope you wake up in time.

jethro

06-06-2006, 01:30 PM

GIVE ME SOMETHING ELSE. . Gosh.

all the caps have a point. Well, sometimes at least with me:p

David Jamieson

06-07-2006, 05:13 AM

scholar

06-07-2006, 06:39 AM

So, what is your neigong for? And how can you prove it? Fighting agaist others?

As you practise Taiji, you should know Da Liu, a very famous Tai ji master, who has many Tai Ji students, and published books on Tai Ji, I think he knows Tai Ji better than you, and his neigong was better than you.

After he learned Falun Dafa, he knew how great Falun Dafa is, now he is a Falun Gong practitioner, and told his Tai Ji disciples to learn Falun Dafa.

Exactly. When I show that it works for self-defence, then I show that it can just possibly also work for healing. Of course, I know it also works for healing because I teach it in several hospitals to inpatients for rehab, and the doctors and nurses (and risk managers) love it when the patient falls on their units go down by double digit percentiles just due to my neigong classes. What you are choosing to ignore in my statements is that the martial aspect is a test. If it works to protect me martially, it might work other ways too. FLG doesn't protect one martially, so how do we know it has any value beyond self-hypnosis? We don't have any objective proof that FLG is better than any other method of New Age navel-gazing, and for Li Hongzhi and his adherents to claim that FLG is undeniably better than anything else (with absolutely zero evidence to support such an impossibly arrogant claim) makes them look foolish at best, and disingenuous at worst.

My primary Taijiquan teacher was the the late Wu Daxin, son of Wu Gongzao, son of Wu Jianquan, son of Wu Quanyuo, who learned his family's Taijiquan as a military officer directly from Yang Banhou and Yang Luchan. Indeed, Quanyou was Banhou's senior disciple. I was also lucky enough to have some few lessons from the late Wu Yinghua (Gongzao's sister) and Ma Yueliang. Da Liu may have been famous in the USA, but my late teachers were famous in China and internationally. I studied with them for over twenty years, so perhaps I've learned a thing or two about their Taijiquan. Does fame equal ability? Probably not, but your statement disparaging my ability is based on even less evidence.

There is a nice article on Wu Daxin (it could be translated a bit better, but there you go) in Journal of Asian Martial Arts Volume 15, No. 1, 2006. Via Media Publishing, Erie Pennsylvania USA. ISSN 1057-8358

It seems that the FLG practitioners I've met and conversed with all share the same sense of smug, insulting arrogance. A fine advertisement for the spiritual attributes cultivated by Li Hongzhi's method...

scholar

06-07-2006, 02:21 PM

Perhaps they did, do you know that they didn't? Buddhist and Taoist monasteries both teach martial arts at any rate. You don't know anything about martial arts yourself, of course, which is why you aren't capable of knowing if they did or not based on the traditions associated with them. Proper Taijiquan is based much more closely on Laozi's work than anything Li Hongzhi has come up with.

Martial arts are a demonstrable skill. No skill, you get knocked down. In China, at least, those martial arts are traditionally associated with waigong and neigong.

Falungong is a crackpot religion, founded by a coward and charlatan with no demonstrable physical skill. Li's Fa is based on his copious verbiage numbing the spirits of his glassy-eyed followers (such as yourself), and nothing else.

Since you selectively ignore large parts of what is said to you here (a common problem FLG missionaries display), it is plain that you cannot or will not answer the questions we ask you, whereas we can and will answer (or at least acknowledge) every question you ask us in good faith. Also, since you are insulting and petulant, this conversation is obviously making you angry (so much for "ren") so I suggest that you perhaps ask yourself why you persist in trolling for converts here, at a martial arts discussion forum, by saying that martial skill is worthless?

Juna

06-08-2006, 03:36 AM

I just let people here know that Falun gong is good, I donot want to defy anybody or any practice, if sby feels hurt or uncomfortable, I have to say sorry to him.

Peace

scholar

06-08-2006, 06:26 AM

So are you apologising for insulting us?

GLW

06-08-2006, 10:18 AM

just for fun...

So....you knew martial arts quite well....

A pity your teacher(s) did not also teach you Wu De and a little manners...like not waltzing into a place and insulting everyone.

And then there is the learning that would truly come from reaching a point in training where you can not engage in your diatribes...or for that matter, to be at a point where you do not invest your emotions into something like this defense.

Of course, I would NEVER claim to have reached that level. I actually still give a $hit about misleading others:D

Juna

06-08-2006, 12:49 PM

I donot think I have insulted anyone, but if sby feels uncomfortable, I apology to him.

But I donot know if anyone feels he should apologize for insulting Falun Gong and Falun Gong practitioners. Tracing back the thread, everyone can realize what insult really means.

Peace.

Since the crackdown on Falun Gong was begun by the Communist Party of China (CCP) regime in 1999, including the establishment of a special "6-10" office of repression, Falun Gong has responded by using factual disclosure of persecution and other crimes by the regime. As a result it claims that more than 10 million Chinese have resigned the CCP and its affiliations.

As a British Conservative I have witnessed with relief – and played some part in encouraging – the freedom from communism now enjoyed by millions of Europeans. I urge all members of the CCP to recognise that the horrors perpetrated in its name – the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and the Tiananmen Massacres – are held to be responsible for some 80 million deaths.

It is now a matter of probably brief time before the regime collapses. The massive economic contradictions, manifest administrative corruption, widespread dissent in the countryside, increasing courage of religious groups and the ability of young people to circumvent Internet restrictions are all precursors to change.

The Chinese people have friends wherever thought, religion and association are free. The regime has no friends and, while I despise it, I hope that the change is as peaceful as the process which ended one-party domination in Europe.

In the meantime, like other politicians across the free world, I warn those responsible of the consequences of genocide.

A Letter to Gao Zhisheng from Vice President McMillan-Scott

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-6-4/42312.html

David Jamieson

06-08-2006, 01:00 PM

So how does falun gong/dafa fit in with the politics of China?
What does FG/D have to do with organizations in China that move towards democracy and a way of life that doesn't include persecution of individuals for personal beliefs.

What good does FG/D do for China besides protesting at every opportunity and attempting to take the political system by bits and pieces.

what do they do now to make a difference?

do they run orphanges? Do they have compasion centers? Hospices? Hostels? Do they in anyway make efforts to forward social justice besides focusing on persecution of themselves by a sufficiently demonized bureaucracy?

Do they run co-ops to feed the hungry? Do they take care of the old and sick in FG/D monasteries?

What do they do that reflects the teachings of Buddhism?

How do they act that reflects the teachings of Lao Tze?

You say read the scriptures of Buddhism and Taoism, yet I wonder if you have even read these things. It is no small task to undertake the reading of teh sutras and an even more gargantuan undertaking to actually claim to fully comprehend them. To posture such a statement is silly.

The lifestyle of your leader is contradictory to that which is being sold here as a "good thing". Practice what you preach is the onl;y way to gain credibility, at least here in teh weat. Otherwise you will always be regarded as a sham regardless of what you may think of yourself.

Be the change you want to see in the world, don't push agendas on someone else.

scholar

06-08-2006, 06:14 PM

I donot think I have insulted anyone, but if sby feels uncomfortable, I apology to him.

But I donot know if anyone feels he should apologize for insulting Falun Gong and Falun Gong practitioners. Tracing back the thread, everyone can realize what insult really means.

Peace.

That isn't an apology. You are passive-aggressively assigning a condition to me, i.e. "uncomfortable", that is no more accurate than your earlier assessment of my Taijiquan. I am a martial artist, it takes a lot more than simple words on a computer to discomfit me.

No one here insults Falungong and Li Hongzhi unprovoked. Li Hongzhi started the process by insisting his method was superior to any other with outrageous statements like:

"Qigong exercises are for nothing more than healing illness and maintaining health, no matter how you perform them or how much some qigong masters boast about them. They definitely won’t lead you to a high and profound realm. In the past, it was absolutely impossible for anyone—whether he was in some cultivation circle or religious community—to know a Fa this profound and unfathomable. Ordinary qigong only teaches people how to heal themselves and keep healthy, for it doesn’t have Fa to guide people in cultivation." - Li Hongzhi from http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/europe1998a.htm

Practitioners of other methods naturally respond, as we have here, by asking "Superior? How is it superior?" and reminding you that Falungong does not do what martial qigong can do. All we get from you in response is outside links, New Age fuzziness and ad hominem insults. The question is a simple one and I'll bold it for you so that you won't miss it: if your method can't do the job ours does, how is it better than ours? The rough treatment of you, Li and FLG starts when we get answers that dodge that very simple question with the fuzzy logic and insults mentioned above. If you are going to argue, argue, don't whine. Answer the question. Face that FLG has no martial component and therefore can't possibly be better martially than the waigong or neigong of any traditional Chinese style that uses their method for fighting. You can act holy and say "peace" all you want, but you still have to answer the question before you have any hope to be taken seriously here.

scholar

06-08-2006, 06:30 PM

This is an interesting article on the subject:

http://www.sydney.indymedia.org.au/front.php3?article_id=45038

Juna

06-09-2006, 12:17 PM

do they run orphanges? Do they have compasion centers? Hospices? Hostels? Do they in anyway make efforts to forward social justice besides focusing on persecution of themselves by a sufficiently demonized bureaucracy?

Do they run co-ops to feed the hungry? Do they take care of the old and sick in FG/D monasteries?

Those are the task of a normal government, not Falun Dafa practitioners.

Juna

06-09-2006, 12:22 PM

What do they do that reflects the teachings of Buddhism?

How do they act that reflects the teachings of Lao Tze? .

Different cultivation methods.

Juna

06-09-2006, 12:29 PM

Otherwise you will always be regarded as a sham regardless of what you may think of yourself.

Only those who really know how to cultivate, have the confidence to say, this is the real pathway to enlightenment.

scholar

06-09-2006, 02:25 PM

But we aren't talking about Buddhism, Taoism or Christianity, we are talking about Chinese martial arts, so you still are talking around the question. I'll leave the issue whether what Buddha, Jesus or Laozi taught had any bearing on martial arts, for which many examples can be provided, only to point out that Li Hongzhi has claimed to be better than all three of them, too.

Li Hongzhi says that his system is better than any other system, yet Falungong won't help people in a fight. So, again, since Falungong's cultivation isn't for fighting but the following cultivations are how is Falungong better than Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan, Emeiquan or Shaolinquan?

FLG doesn't do what they do, so what makes saying FLG is better at improving human life true? If you can't prove that FLG works for instilling the discipline necessary for me to successfully defend myself, how can you prove that it works better than a Chinese martial art for instilling the discipline to allow me to be a "good" person?

David Jamieson

06-10-2006, 05:47 AM

Jesus once told people sth like this: when others hit your left face, give him your right face.

the context of jesus's statement to a great many christian scholars is one of defiance.

it was to defy the roman overlords by showing them that if they inflict violence on the people, the people are to show them that violence will get them nothing by offering the other cheek.

you keep alluding to buddha and lao tze, but you toss them off at the first question asked about how the similarity is there.

compassion for people and care for others is NOT just the realm of governments, in fact, there is a great deal of work done in teh area of social justice by many many groups outside of goivernment circles, worldwide.

FG/D has shown nothing mare than a want to exercises politic will in their activities here and abroad.

Your statements are contradictory to the message of FG/D.

scholar

06-10-2006, 06:21 AM

Jesus once told people sth like this: when others hit your left face, give him your right face.

You regard this as teaching how to fight?

So, real enlightened beings, such as Buddha Shakyamuni, Laozi and Jesus would never teach people how to fight, how to hurt others, but teach how to cultivate.

Actually, that is a pretty good description of how Taijiquan works, which you would know if you had actually studied it.

The teachers above, if you could remove the filter of Li Hongzhi's doubletalk, taught how to live one's life to remove suffering, how to defend oneself from the evil in the world by minimising suffering. Martial arts that teach self-defence teach the same thing, it is perfectly obvious. You try to make learning to fight sound evil, but aside from the health and meditative benefits of such a profound physical challenge, martial artists remember that there are butterflies and scorpions in the world. We all have lives that no one else has the right to interrupt.

And you still haven't addressed the question of how a system that doesn't teach physical defence can be considered better than one that doesn't. Saying that self-defence is evil, and therefore martial artists are evil, by implying that they like to hurt others isn't an answer.

I haven't even started pointing out the inconsistencies and lies that Li and FLG perpetrate on their followers (as David and others have above), I just want an answer to one simple question. If someone is attacked, how is FLG better for self defence than martial arts? If it isn't better for that one simple task, then it isn't absolutely better, is it?

Juna

06-10-2006, 08:38 AM

the context of jesus's statement to a great many christian scholars is one of defiance.

it was to defy the roman overlords by showing them that if they inflict violence on the people, the people are to show them that violence will get them nothing by offering the other cheek.

That is what you think or some scholars' interpreting. But in the cultivation realm, we have different understanding.

David Jamieson

06-10-2006, 08:45 AM

That is what you think or some scholars' interpreting. But in the cultivation realm, we have different understanding.

apparently you do... and your understanding is not exactly in line with what is accepted by those who have spent their lives inthe study of. Tell me, did your leader read the sutras? the bible? the tao te ching?

you compare but fail to site the refrences or the similarity to what you expound upon.

all you keep saying is fg/d is good, you cannot go deeper as to why or how the method makes it good?

your frame of reference is all these things such as other religio-philosophies, but you fail to state a point from fg/d's.

What is the point form version of fg/d's philosophy and how does it differ from teh established methods you keep defering to?

If it is the same as these established methods, how is it any different or better.

Can you frame what fg/d is and what it's purpose and intention is? What is the driving principle(s)?

scholar

06-10-2006, 10:49 AM

Those great enlightened beings told people how to cultivate, and achieve the higher levels, not how to reduce suffering in this world.

Umm, have you even read what they taught? Even though you still haven't answered the question (you remember: How is Falungong better than martial arts when it doesn't do the job that martial arts do?) I will rebut your latest pronouncement on what the great teachers taught, so that you may see that I am not mistaken in my characterisation. Human suffering is indeed what they talk about, the personal suffering that the world inflicts on the human heart and how to see it for what it is, thereby removing its ability to afflict us. Without that, we wouldn't need teachers. I don't know what you guys are cultivating, but if it doesn't release us from suffering, what good is it?

I will choose the teachings of Buddha because it is the clearest on the subject for our purposes, explicitly teaching how to recognise and then end suffering and the effects of suffering. I will bold the word so that you cannot possibly miss it:

The Four Noble Truths

The Four Noble Truths (Pali, cattari ariya saccani) are taught in Buddhism as the fundamental insight or enlightenment of Sakyamuni Buddha (the historical Buddha), which led to the formulation of the Buddhist philosophy.

Dukkha: There is suffering and impermanence in life for all beings.

Samudaya: There is a cause for suffering, which is attachment and desire (tanha).

Nirodha: There is a way out of suffering, which is to eliminate attachment and desire.

Magga: There are paths that lead out of suffering, one named: the Noble Eightfold Path.

This outline form is exactly that used by doctors of the Buddha's culture when diagnosing and prescribing for a disease: identify the disease, its cause and then prescribe a cure. Thus the Buddha treats suffering as a "disease" we can confidently expect to cure.

Because of its focus on suffering, Buddhism is often called pessimistic. But since Gautama Buddha presented a cure, Buddhists consider it neither pessimistic nor optimistic but realistic.

The Noble Eightfold Path

1. Right Understanding (or Right View, or Right Perspective) - samma ditthi

"And what, monks, is right understanding? Knowledge with regard to sadness, knowledge with regard to the origination of sadness, knowledge with regard to the stopping of sadness, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of sadness: This, monks, is called right understanding."

2. Right Thought (or Right Intention, or Right Resolve) - samma sankappa

"And what is right thought? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right thought."

3. Right Speech - samma vaca

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech."

4. Right Action - samma kammanta

"And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action."

5. Right Livelihood - samma ajiva

"And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood."

6. Right Effort (or Right Endeavour) - samma vayama

"And what, monks, is right effort?

(i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen:
This, monks, is called right effort."

7. Right Mindfulness - samma sati

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness?

(i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on (his/her) body in & of itself... ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.
(ii) (He/she) remains focused on feelings in & of themselves...ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.
(iii) (He/she) remains focused on the mind in & of itself...ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.
(iv) (He/she) remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves...ardent, aware, & mindful...putting away greed & distress with reference to the world.
This, monks, is called right mindfulness."

8. Right Concentration - samma samadhi

"And what, monks, is right concentration?

(i) There is the case where a monk...not ardent, quite withdrawn from sensuality, but mindful and alert, enters in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from detachment, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.
(ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration; fixed single-pointed awareness free from directed thought & evaluation; assurance.
(iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana which the Noble Ones declare to be "Equanimous & mindful, (he/she) has a pleasurable abiding."
(iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain...as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress...he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither in pleasure nor in pain.
This, monks, is called right concentration."

As far as I can see, what Li Hongzhi says, his Fa, doesn't agree with items 2, 3, 5 & 6, at least, of the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path. So, one more time, now that I have shown that you have an, erm, unusual understanding yourself of what Buddha, Jesus and Laozi taught, my question still stands unanswered, a question you should expect when you come to a martial arts discussion board to tell martial artists why what you do is absolutely better than what they do:

How is Falungong better than martial arts when it doesn't do the job that martial arts do?

Juna

06-10-2006, 02:12 PM

all you keep saying is fg/d is good, you cannot go deeper as to why or how the method makes it good?

your frame of reference is all these things such as other religio-philosophies, but you fail to state a point from fg/d's.

As I post before, if one wants to know what Falun Dafa teaches, he should go and read Falun Dafa's original books.
My understanding is very limited, I do not want to say too much about Falun Dafa's teaching, so I suggest people reading the books by themselves, so they donot need to listen to what I think, that is better.

David Jamieson

06-10-2006, 02:57 PM

Although you have quoted so much, not a single word from them encourages people to study martial arts to protect themselves, neither a single sentence teaches to learn how to fight to reduce suffering.[QUOTE]

LUKE 22:36
But now," said Jesus, "let the one who has a purse take it, and he who has a bag must do the same. And let him who has no sword sell his outer garment and buy one.

why would jesus advise them to sell their clothes if need be in order to obtain a sword?

[QUOTE]Buddha Shakyamuni once had a disciple, who had been very strong and evil, and had killed 999 persons(maybe 99, I donot remember the exact number) before he came to Buddha Sakyamuni, the aim he came to Buddha Sakyamuni was to kill the great Buddha, he had a ring on his neck made of fingers of the victims. This evil murderer tried to stab Buddha using his knife, but he failed no matter how he tried.
After that this person knew Buddha Shakyamuni was not an ordinary person, so he became the disciple of Buddha, not learn how to fight, but how to cultivate. After quite some time, the relatives of the victims knew the murder had become a kind person, and not to kill others anymore, they came to revenge, they threw stones at the cultivator, he didnot fight back, he died.

so, the amish are right? the extreme buddhists that self immoliate are right? the ones who let themselves die are right?

you know, it is because of this aspect of non violence to that extreme in buddhism that has made it be regarded in some senses by many as passive nihilism and in the most fundamentalist of cases, an obssession with passing out of existance which is tantamount to the utter obliteration of the soul.

this is contrary to a great deal of other religio-philosophies, especially those of the west here where it's all about hope and eternal life with the flying spaghetti monster or jesus, or gaia, depending on your proximity to california. :p

so, you have no understanding of the depth of what it is you've undertaken and yet you claim that our views are shallow.

This doesn't tell you anything?

scholar

06-11-2006, 07:06 AM

Dude, you are hopeless. You don't answer questions (about why FLG is better than martial arts for example), you don't acknowledge arguments that show your statements to be wrong (about suffering or Buddha and Jesus teaching people to defend their personal well being, for example) and you continue to stick to repetitive, inane statements followed by "read Zhuan Falun, Zhuan Falun good..."

So, your preaching is lame and ineffective, and you've made yourself look like a drooling, glassy eyed cultist who doesn't give a monkey's butt about anything anyone else but your cowardly "master" says. Don't waste any more of our time, OK? Go home and play with your Li Hongzhi bobble-head dolls...

David Jamieson

06-11-2006, 09:47 AM

In the sutras of buddhism you will find reference where there is segmentation of the kinds of people who attempt at opening the tathagata womb and becoming a buddha.
This is what it's about in one perspective. To look within and to see that divinity whichj is and has always been within you and to bring it to the fore.

Anyway, part of it is the ability to reject violence by giving it back, or returning it because you do not want to have it. This is a form of self defense, if one were to take it to higher levels, then one would know that eventually an armed person or an inherently violent person will attempt to one day bestow that violence upon you and so, it is with the tenets of buddhism that one prepares themselves to face that violence and to reject it and return it to it's source. That requires kungfu.

It is always better to not kill, but apperently, in the Shaolin way, it is better to maim than to kill. How can one even begin to understand how to maim to avoid killing without studying martial art? How would one understand themselves enough to be able to measure force in this respect if they could not study the use of the forces themselves through the methods employed in militaristic practices?

what is the meaning of a warrior monk or wu sing? THis is a buddhist monk who is on the path of ability to reject violenece thrown at him or others.

If one goes far enough, one will find that buddhism supports knowing. It supports not just knowing butterflies and happy songs, it supports knowing reality. On both sides of it's coin, the good the bad, all of it. If you don't know it, you cannot understand it. period. That's buddhist thinking.

There are certain parts of buddhist study that at a time prevent study of such things, THis is shown in teh lotus sutra where if one wishes to take that step higher then they must detach from worldly pleasure entirely including sex and pugilism. But that is a method seeking to achioeve something very specific. It is not fopr all buddhists on the path of seeking within themselves.

The context to the statement made by jesus in 22:36 is clear if you read what's around it. (the bible and the new testament is readily available online you know)

the context is:

And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Luk 22:39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.

If one considers a couple of things, we can understand that jesus understood the necessity of the sword. Peter carried one with him. He even cut off the ear of a trangressor to his lord.

Jesus himself was not oblivious to the use of violence either. You can read of how he upturns tables and throws people physically and by force from teh temple in a fit of anger.

Buddha also has a story where he strongly chastise and admonishes some boys by a river who are teasing a dog. He forcefully takes there stick from them and charges them "how would you like it if someone did that to you?" (do unto others is the lesson).

In order to understand good, we all need context. Experience in life is the only true teacher. People who show you things only show you things, the doing of them, the involvement at a personal level is up to you.

everything in the universe is within the grasp of understanding, but achievements must be made in other areas that will allow us to step evr forward and ever further into greater understand of ourselves and the universe we are in.

To understand pain, one must feel pain or they do not fully comprehend.
To understand love, one must fully love or they do not comprehend.

there is much that is self evident in context to dualism, but there are subtle lines that prevent full understanding of a great deal of these things. With immersion one can come to understand, but while standing out side, or keeping yourself from these experiences because of fear or repulsion (which is fear of the unknown and repulsion of the self for not having the constitution and fortitude to face some things).

so again, juna, what is it that FG/D offers that makes it better.
I have read a lot of what FG/D has had to say about a great deal of things. I've read the interviews with Li, I've listened to the drones on the corners with their yellow jackets and pamphlets and their lack of answers to specific questions like those being asked here.

Buddha said to ask questions, of yourself, of your teachers, of your parents, of your gods and even of the buddha himself.

So, here's my question. What does FG/D do for humanity? How does it maike change? What is it's method of change? How is that method different than anything else that is out there such as zen or transcendental meditation, or tai chi, or kungfu practice or prayer and reflection.

what makes fg/d the better way that it's leader says it is.

I would also like to hear more on the perspective that aliens control our minds and the world around us. How do you feel about that Juna? It's a principle belief of FG/D that this is so. I am wondering why they would blame an alien presence for the neglegence of humanity.

I believe we are the cause of and solution to all our problems.

So, what's the method and what's the result Juna?

jon

06-11-2006, 11:03 PM

Juna,
After looking though your posts are reading your various replies, i have come to a conclusion regarding Fulan Gung.

The Chinese government are quite right to ban your groups cultish and obviously harmfull behaviour.
Thank you for making it so very clear the the government of China has been right all along, the Falun Gung movement is simply a cult with intentions falling nothing short of monetary gain.

Previously, I was under the impression that this view was too simplistic and there had to be another reason why the Chinese government viewed Falun Gung in such a poor light. Now (thanks to reading your posts) I understand well why such an action was required.

Thank you for helping me understand why Falun Gung is so dangerous and what a negative effect it has on the minds of its practioners.

jethro

06-12-2006, 10:21 AM

he is taking on a few people at a time, and smart ass people like "scholar" are coming in and Juna's pathetic mind can't keep up so he just continues to ignore things. But he is consistent in all the things he does. Not that that is a good thing:p

Juna

06-13-2006, 03:57 AM

My limited understanding here:

when more people practice Falun Dafa, more good persons, then the moral level of the human beings can improve, and crime rate can reduce, isn't it good for everybody in the world?

Again, all the posts I made here only represent my little understanding.

Juna

06-13-2006, 04:29 AM

he just continues to ignore things.

I think I have not ignored things, but answering needs time.

TaiChiBob

06-13-2006, 06:43 AM

Greetings..

As we approach the 300th reply to this thread it is amusing that Juna captivates so many people with the nonsense spewed..

Falun Gong (Dafa) is best understood from our more primitive side, simple gut feeling.. read, or try to read, the book(s) by Li Hongzi.. we are granted inherent wisdom and understanding by the universe.. those too weak to use it fall prey to the likes of Li Hongzi.. those that possess a modicum of clarity are offended by such nonsense.. and, those that argue against Falun Dafa only incite its followers to further pursue indoctrination.. "what we resist persists".. Let Juna post as it chooses, but don't respond.. the truth is known by those worthy of it..

There is only one "Law" of the universe.. Create yourself, or others will do it for you.. Falun Gong would like to shape the weak in their image.. responding to Juna offers it a forum to spew its nonsense..

Be well...

David Jamieson

06-13-2006, 07:29 AM

What Buddha Shakyamuni told his disciple is to guild them cultivate to higher levels, the aim is to go to paradise after they leave the ordinary world. So the real cultivators in history did not focus on how to prevent themselves from violence.

There were some Wu Seng, their existence was to pretect temples---the cultivation enviroment, but that is not a part of Buddha's teaching.

Buddha knows everything in the ordinary world, but never uses violence to hurt anyone. those evilest ones are punished by heaven, the gods guarding the Law.

Peace.

Juna, you are wrong here. The goal is not to enter paradise, the goal is to cease the cycle of birth and rebirth.

The purpose of wu seng was varied. But nevertheless the fact that they exist and they exist in context to the functions of buddhist practice says something about the nature of reality. IE violenece exists, deal with it as you must.

life is not filled with absolutes of evil ones and righteous ones juna, life is filled with people, regular people who do what they do.

The buddhist concept of evil is not the same as that of the christian concept. In teh story of Mara v Buddha (which is similar to the story of jesus in teh desert for 40 days, the buddha struggle with Mara who is teh lord of desires. It is Mara that is associated with evil from buddhist context because they see desire as the root cause of ones suffering.

evil is desire to the buddhist, whereas evil is anti-humanistic or anti-moral in the christian sense.

If you are going to use other religions and philosophies to support your argument, then make sure you understand those things.

David Jamieson

06-13-2006, 07:46 AM

I think Falun Dafa practitioners never pay attention to aliens, that is not a principle belief of Falun Dafa.

The practitioners believe in the nature of the universe--to be true good and endure.

the cause of humans problem is human, when the moral standard of human declined, they became to suspect the god's exist, and believe in the so-called science, and became more and more selfish, and were eager to so-called developement. As a result, the gods did not protect the human being much more, so the aliens had the chance to interfere human being.

This moden science is really an achievement of the universe, but it is not really fit for mankind.

Falun Dafa practitioners donot oppose today's science, now I am using a computer.

However sby just believes in the moden science, and has regarded science as a kind of religion, regarded modern science as the truth of the universe, that is not correct.

Today, it seems people cannot live without modern science, it has formed the environment.

people will understand in the future all these things, and everything will be solved.

However, good will be rewarded, and evil will be punished.

Peace.

Being a "good" person is a nice thing to aim for. But I am not convinced one needs to undertake any particular practice to do so. Being good is something you know how to do by the time you are 6 years old. Being "good" isn't always just done by not being nad either.

One has to actively participate in the growth of good. this is done through deeds. This is done by given of yourself to those who need. To share with someone who has nothing. To feed someone who's hungry. All these types of actions define what is good. Looking inward is a personal journey. meditation is neither good nor bad and will not produce good except in it's practitioner and only if that practitioner intentfully wants to commit good deeds and uses meditation or gongs as a form of focusing that will. Otherwise, I still don't understand how F/GD contributes to good in teh world.

Science is not necessarily having to be at odds with religion either. IN western religious thought, it is at the very beginning of the bible that we see that the opportunity for man to become likened unto god is indeed doable through knowledge and science. Read Genesis and see for yourself how the gods worry that we (humans) will become like them after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's an interesting part for sure because it makes god not only personified but plural as well, but it also reveals that science is one of the ways that man will become closer to god.

Humans have always had some sort of distraction to keep them occupied with things outside themselves. It is still this way now. Looking within to see yourself and confront yourself and to understand who and what you really are as an entity is not something to be taken lightly and is certainly not a practice that people partake in regularly.

as for the alien interference part, I believe it is things like this that are convenient filler explanations for those things that cannot be touched upon with intellect. Like eagles in lord of the rings that save the day wheneever there is a bump in the story and there is no other way to get out of the situation. :)

It is easier to blame some mysterious force than to understand the nature of where we failed. To own your failure is a difficult thing. Many do not want to or enjoy the experience of this, but still, to be a whole person, one must be all of themselves, failures and successes combined. If you cannot own your failures, you likely cannot fully recognize who and what you really are as a person.

-TaiChiBob-
Juna is a person who obviously believes in this. s/He doesn't appear to be trolling and has come to a stance of defense in that which s/he believes. If you don't want to feed the trolls, maybe stop trying to convince the mma exponents that yoga feels better than aggression.lol, do you even remember what it was like to be 25 sometimes? lol Dude, that's yer fuk and fight years and who gives a sh1t about deeper meaning to life. You are not gonna make a dent there.

But this argument is right up your alley.

The argument unfolds. :)

TaiChiBob

06-13-2006, 10:18 AM

Greetings..

David: This arguement is barely amusing and hardly worth further pursuit.. but, i suppose it bears mentioning that i tried Yoga several times and found it not to my liking.. as for aggression feeling better, i'm not so sure it feels better.. it simply satisifies some deficiency in the aggressor.. a contented person needs no aggression, only the means to defend themself or others.. aggression implys reaching beyond or initiating conflict.. i certainly enjoy training/sparring/grappling, but i am not "aggressive".. i am a competent defensive fighter and i can defend aggressively.. but, it has been my experience that the aggressor reaches too far, exposes to much and suffers for the notion of aggression..

But, yep, there was a time (in my 20s and early 30s) when i looked for any excuse.. took any challenges, and exercised my libido with gusto.. now,the scars, physical and mental, remind me of the price for such foolishness.. but, i would not trade any of it in, it's made me who i am today.. i suppose it's all part of the path to get where i am now, more mellow, more tuned to simpler things, certainly more aware and appreciative of this thing called life..

Be well..

David Jamieson

06-13-2006, 10:30 AM

aggression is natural. It is not an indicator of deficiency. I am not sure why you would postulate that idea.

aggression and violence is a normal as mercy and compassion.
human beings are made up of the parts they are, not the parts they exclude for whatever reaons.

we have good and bad, we have lust and aggression and we have kindness and compassion. embrace it all and you will only be that which you are.

toss any of it away and you throw away a part of yourself.
exploit it with bad intention and you reveal your character.
exploit any of it with good intention and you reveal your character.

the young and the old do not think alike. This is usally due to a gap in wisdom and experience.

You can't expect teh young to not act upon the primal urges that drive us all. These are primary and overshadow wisdom that has not been acquired through experience yet. So expect teh young to act on their primal nature and not on knowledge and depth of understanding. That doesn't exist in the young and it is unfair toi assume it from them or expect it. Yes we can behaviour modify and create social constructs and how to act and consequences to deter actions that are detrimental to teh peace of all, but we cannot make someone not feel those things anymore.

Better to have an outlet than to deny it. That will levae a deeper scar than experience of getting your ass handed to you or finally understanding what it is when your family member dies or when you or someone gets seriously hurt etc etc.

Sme of the greatest experiences you will ever have that give you perspective in life will be those experiences that hurt you and leave a scar. You learn from that and you know from that.

I would rather know, than not know. But that takes a lifetime. :)

TaiChiBob

06-13-2006, 11:43 AM

Greetings..

David: Well said!! and, i agree.. I suppose i should have said "ill-intended" aggression.. but, the balanced wisdom in your reply is excellent.. Us old guys just keep "pointing at the moon", though.. in hopes that our experiences might serve someone well.. aggression can be channeled in many ways, hopefully beneficial..

Thanks, nice post.. Be well..

David Jamieson

06-13-2006, 01:42 PM

prc is as evil as any other government.

men are the root of evil action. the action is based on choice. the choice is based on intention.

heaven and hell in buddhism is not the same concept as what we find in the west. good and evil are held in different light as well.

Buddhism has fundamental tenets based on the 4 noble truths and the method of cultivation is the 8 fold path.

the rest regarding anaolgy, heavens, hells etc etc, is not as important as those fundamentals. It has been written that on his deathbed, teh Buddha Guatama, or shakyamuni as you are refering to him, asked that the writings and lessons be virtually done away with and that it should all simplify and be rendered down to just the four noble truths and teh 8 fold path.

My personal contradiction is that I do not believe that all life is suffering and I do not believe my desires cause suffering within myself or others in anyway other than that which I intentfully act upon. If my desire is to cause harm, then that is evil, if my desire is to help someone else then how do i suffer and if the other person is helped, then they are not suffering anymore either.

There is much that is in conflict with acceptance of the tenets of buddhism. Like any religio-philosophy it has it's good points and bad points. I prefer to take what is useful from buddhist thought and use it and to leave the floss on the mill behind.

I can only do this in context to my own understanding. Thankfully, Buddhism does not fall short on expression of ideas to forward that understanding. There is no blind faith in buddhism. this is laudable on many levels for someone such as myself, it leaves out a lot of mystery and has at it's core the definite need to deal with reality and more often than not in absolutes.

As for qigongs, there is nothing new in what FD/G offers. Most of the material is co-opted by Li from other practices and a great deal of his material on philosophy is also borrowed. He loses sight when he cites external influence as the problem though. You lose the path when you fixate on the government of china as your problem.

If you practice qigong and cultivate inner peace, I am confident the PRC could give a rats ass. FG/D is attempting to cause political dischord in china. It doesn't take much wisdom to understand that in reality, that is not how things are done and what did you expect?

If you walk into a lions den, it is more likely that you will be eaten than become the tamer of the lions.

In short, you have to be the change in the world that you want to see. accusations and a lot of fingerpointing really amounts to nothing and will not push change. deviant infiltration such as what FG/D has attempted is also not the way.

the way into the halls of power is through the status quo or through the hand that holds the sword.

the FG/D sword is of poor quality and is better left unused. The ability to function in the status quo is higher.

If FG/D really wanted to incite change, My view is that they have gone about it in a complete ass backwards fashion. Not too mention, the controversial and likely insane ledaer doesn't help either.

Not only all of that, but FG/D adds insult to injury by creating this atmosphere that takes away from qi gong value as a whole. by politicizing it and by using it as a tool for the FG/D political agenda they are sullying the practice of what is otherwise socially inert in it's true form.

mawali

06-13-2006, 02:10 PM

The Falungong leader stated his membership was higher than the Communist party and the government began cracking down by their brutal assault against derfenseless citizens. The Falungong leader is crackpot so that doesn't help any matters but the ordinary people suffer.

Falungong has now become politicized as well as a hallmark for democracy but it doesn't matter. Big companies kowtow to the mainland just to get business.
Look around: Wallmart, Yahoo, Microsoft, do they really care?

David Jamieson

06-13-2006, 02:55 PM

Those ccp murderers were told to be "good", but they continue their murdering. Those thieves were also told to be "good", but they insist on steeling when they think necessary.

Falun Dafa practitioners really know the meaning of good, and really be a good person.

This is contrary to your point abouit what you are trying to cultivate.
Point being, if FG/D was about qigong and inner harmony it simply wouldn't be about politics, murderers, evil government conspirators, a man who says ludicrous things and people who follow without question and believe without enquery.

I would again point out that the FG/D has provided no corroberating evidence for actions against people for the practiec of qigong. Instead, we all know that as a political movement and cult it has been put down in China.
It's activities abroad are a mix of political attacks on prc and the recruitment of more and more people into the cause.

This recruitment involves giving everything you have to the cause...which is political but also about accumulation of wealth and power for the leader and now for the small heirarchy that is the organization of FG/D itself.

FG/d will go nowhere in the western world. It will likely garner less support than the free tibet movement. And until they provide rock solid evidence of their accusations they aren't going to get many people giving pity either.

Act like a screwball cult and you will be viewed as a screwball cult.

scholar

06-14-2006, 07:06 AM

This is my comment...

http://www.sydney.indymedia.org.au/front.php3?article_id=45038

David Jamieson

06-14-2006, 07:22 AM

From the "politics in command" of the Mao Zedong era to the "stressing politics" of Jiang Zemin's era, the CCP has been telling the country that politics is the venue only of the CCP.

It makes clear that Chinese civilians, including Falun Gong practitioners, have all been deprived of the right to "be political," because only the party has that right. It is their privilege, just as the party has reserved the legitimization of cruelty and torture as its special privilege.

Right to be political in a communist country? This has an apparent bias to it. Cruelty and torture. Ok, so it's fair to assume that someone who was anti prc wrote this. anyway...

Since July 1999, Jiang and the CCP regime have utilized their political and social resources and launched a bloody political persecution in an attempt to exterminate the belief and practice of Falun Gong.
In this political persecution that has known no bounds, the regime as directed by Jiang has committed and continues to commit hideous crimes of genocide and has spared no resource to crush freedom of belief to a degree that it is comparable to the worst dictators in history. Once again, can you provide any, even an iota, one scrap of corroberating third party evidence of this. Political dissedence is not tolerated in China, everyone knows that. You are saying that FG/D people are being murdered regularly for practicing qigong, I say that is a lie generated by people like you.

Facing such vast political persecution, insult, arrest, torture, targeted killing and evil propaganda, Falun Gong practitioners have tenaciously persevered in their faith.

They have employed peaceful means to resist tyranny, and have become the model of triumphant faith. They ceaselessly and tirelessly expose the evil to the world and spread the seeds of freedom of belief across many countries.
They have attempted to infiltrate chinese governemnet and sew the seeds of fg/d belief. As an aside i would like to know fg/d's spin on how they would practice democracy.

In recent years, Falun Gong's manifestation and behavior have further proven they are not only protecting their rights to freedom of belief, but also supportive of other communities whose basic human rights are attacked by tyranny.

what other communities is that?

The CCP criticizes Falun Gong practitioners' peaceful ways as "getting political." Does that mean that turning a deaf ear and a blind eye to Jiang's crimes should be called "not getting political"?
Is allowing, through inaction, the CCP to continue its reckless trampling of human rights "not getting political"?

Is silence in the face of the CCP propaganda machine's fabricated and evil rumors "not getting political"?
Falun Gong is not a political organization, but a cultivation community, and Falun Gong has never been political since its inception.
If this was true then they wouldn't be taking political actiuon. FG/D is all about politics they are jumping on whatever bandwagon will have them really, at first they were persecuted because Li was telling people boldfaced lies and encouraging them to not take medical treatments. He wanted them to just use his chi kung to cure themselves. They died from their folly. Those people died because of FG/D and it's beliefs. People who hold to it now and bring harm to themselves because of this ridiculous practice are being harmed by the FG/D organization, it's beliefs and practices.

This stems from the fact that -- from the past to the present -- Falun Gong practitioners' ideology and practice have signified that they do not have any interest in state power, and that they simply want to expose to the world the CCP's tyranny. Bullsh1t. The world knows about the tyranny of commie governments. We're not stupid. Tautology is another word we understand here in teh rest of the world. :rolleyes:

They only strive for a place in society where they may hold freedom of belief. The CCP's attack on Falun Gong has manifested in the political sphere. Falun Gong's response comes in the political sphere, but it is free of political goals.

When hearing those aloof intellectuals who prefer to remain on the sidelines say things like, "We don't get involved in politics; between the CCP and Falun Gong, we don't oppose or support anyone," I always feel a sense of shame for the way morality has deteriorated.

This hypocracy exposes one's innermost feelings as being without spirit, servile, selfish and devoid of courage in a just cause. The hypocrisy is in saying FG/D isn't trying to alter things through political manipulation and control from inside. The hypocrisy is when you are actually doing something and telling everyone else you are not doing that thing which they are standing there watching you do it! lol

Therefore, I would like to offer words of advice to public figures in intellectual circles who do not approve of or who oppose Falun Gong: Consider the words of Voltaire, who said "Think for yourselves, and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too," which has often been paraphrased as " may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Thinking for yourself? That's a good one Juna. The last thing an FG/D person does is think for themself or speak for themself or otherwise. More of the same everyone wear a yellow jacket, everyone do this at this moment, do it so we all look the same, think for yourselves! ridiculous.

The Chinese Embassy's statements that regard the "Nine Commentaries on the Chinese Communist Party" as an "anti-Chinese article" and call Falun Gong an "anti-Chinese organization" have shamelessly made the false conclusion that the CCP and the Chinese nation are the same.

In fact, the truth of the matter is quite the opposite, considering the miserable record of the CCP, its despoiling of China's resources (not the least of which, include its people) and its horrid handling of the solemn responsibility of leadership.

History and reality have convincingly proved: The CCP is China's shame and is the most criminal regime in the entire history of the Chinese nation.

Bravely exposing the evil tyranny of the CCP is an expression of the deepest and most sincere love for the Chinese people.

Juna, this bit of drivel is ridiculous and preposterous to teh core. One cannot get involved in political change strategies and claim they are not political. FG/D has co-=opted what are otherwise peacful practices and used them as a way to attract people which they then put in harms way because of teh FG/D political goals.

Look, I'm sorry China is a sh1tty place to be and that commie governments suck ass. BUt you have to deal with reality Juna. The wheel is broken with FG/D. There is a democracy movement in China fully independent from FG/D. why are you harming that cause? Why is FG/D putting people in harms way by making them confront the ccp forces that are against them?

and it's not political? Dude, FG/D is nothing but political.

David Jamieson

06-14-2006, 07:26 AM

I would also be interested to know if YOu're Chinese and do you live in China?

Or are you yet another westerner picking up an exotic cause to be cool for your friends?

Juna

06-14-2006, 12:22 PM

Once again, can you provide any, even an iota, one scrap of corroberating third party evidence of this. Political dissedence is not tolerated in China, everyone knows that. You are saying that FG/D people are being murdered regularly for practicing qigong, I say that is a lie generated by people like you. .

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:9:./temp/~c109C2D0GL::

Whereas the Chinese Government continues its brutal campaign to eradicate the Falun Gong spiritual movement and thousands of its members have been subject to excessive force, abuse, detention, and torture, including Liu Chengjun who died in 2003 after reportedly being abused in custody in Jilin Province and Huang Wei who is currently detained in Hebei Province, among others;

----

Resolved, That--

(1) the House of Representatives condemns the imprisonment of religious leaders and people of faith in the People's Republic of China and urges their release; and

(2) it is the sense of the House of Representatives that it should be the policy of the Government of the United States to promote and defend religious freedom and freedom of conscience in China.

I think this is the latest resolution of the House of Representatives, U.S.,.

Juna

06-14-2006, 12:24 PM

Condemning the escalating levels of religious persecution in the People's Republic of China. (Introduced in House)

HRES 608 IH

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. RES. 608
Condemning the escalating levels of religious persecution in the People's Republic of China.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

December 14, 2005
Mr. MCCOTTER submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on International Relations

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RESOLUTION
Condemning the escalating levels of religious persecution in the People's Republic of China.

Whereas the Constitution and laws of the People's Republic of China purport to provide for religious freedom, however, these freedoms are substantively ignored;

Whereas all religious groups and spiritual movements must register with the Chinese Government, which monitors religious services and judges the legitimacy of religious activities;

Whereas unregistered religious groups in China continue to experience official interference and members of religious groups have been subjected to intimidation, harassment, and detention;

Whereas many religious leaders and adherents in China, including those in official churches, have been detained, arrested, or administratively sentenced to prison terms in reeducation-through-labor camps;

Whereas religious believers are denied the ability to hold public office not by law, but by a logical extension of the fact that most government positions go to members of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and CCP membership and religious belief are considered incompatible;

Whereas numerous abuses of unofficial Catholic clergy have occurred, including the detentions of Bishop Zhao Zhendong, Bishop Jia Zhigou, Bishop Yao Liang, Bishop Su Zhimin, Bishop An Shuxin, Bishop Gao Kexian, Father Han Dingxian, and Father Li Hongye, as well as other Catholic priests and lay leaders who have been beaten or otherwise mistreated;

Whereas the whereabouts of Gendun Choekyi Nyima, the boy identified by the Dalai Lama as the 11th Panchen Lama and detained by Chinese authorities ten years ago, when he was six years old, are still unknown;

Whereas, according to the Department of State, Chinese authorities continue to restrict Muslim religious activity, teaching, and worship in Xinjiang, including reported prohibitions on the participation and religious education of minors;

Whereas the Chinese Government continues its brutal campaign to eradicate the Falun Gong spiritual movement and thousands of its members have been subject to excessive force, abuse, detention, and torture, including Liu Chengjun who died in 2003 after reportedly being abused in custody in Jilin Province and Huang Wei who is currently detained in Hebei Province, among others;

Whereas Cai Zhuohua, a Beijing underground church leader, was sentenced on November 8, 2005, to three years in prison for distributing Bibles and other Christian materials;

Whereas the Haidian Lower People's Court in Beijing also sentenced Mr. Cai's wife, Xiao Yunfei, to two years in prison and her brother, Xiao Gaowen, to 18 months in prison; and

Whereas on November 20, 2005, after attending services at the Gangwashi Church in Beijing, President George W. Bush stated: `A healthy society is a society that welcomes all faiths and gives people a chance to express themselves through worship with the Almighty': Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That--

(1) the House of Representatives condemns the imprisonment of religious leaders and people of faith in the People's Republic of China and urges their release; and

(2) it is the sense of the House of Representatives that it should be the policy of the Government of the United States to promote and defend religious freedom and freedom of conscience in China.

This is a resolution at the end of last year.

Juna

06-14-2006, 12:30 PM

what other communities is that? .

Mnay communities human rights have been deprived by ccp, including Christians, Buddhists, and others.

scholar

06-14-2006, 12:51 PM

One of my Taijiquan teacher's father, Wu Gongzao, was imprisoned and tortured by the CCP in the 1960s and 1970s just because he was a Taijiquan teacher. Because the CCP tortured him, does that guarantee he was a good person? No (BTW, his family says that he survived because of his Taijiquan training). The CCP imprisons, tortures and executes murderes and rapists every day, too. Almost every major governent in the world imprisons tortures and (some) execute people every day. Some deserve it, some don't.

What I'm saying is that the activities of the CCP only show that Li Hongzhi's character to be that of a coward. In his lectures Li puts himself forward as a divine person, the most powerful in the universe as a matter of fact, yet when the CCP come after him he runs to live in luxury in the USA leaving his followers to be tortured and killed by the thousands. Could he save them? Obviously not. Falungong has no value for self-defence, even though it is supposed to be better than any other system. All he can do is organise political protests.

Li and FLG says they didn't involve themselves in political activities, yet it was their political protests in China that led to the crackdown. Li and FLG say they aren't a religion, but they also say they are better than any other system and Li talks about saving his follwers from demons and aliens and making them into gods all the time in his lectures, even if he can't save them from the mundane CCP.

So how do you justify saying FLG aren't a political group when they stage ongoing political protests all over the world? How can they say they aren't a religion when Li and his followers use overtly religious language and try to convert people to their religious goals?

I don't expect an answer, because you haven't provided any answers to any of my other questions either, but I pose these questions rhetorically so that the other contributors here may consider them.

Juna

06-19-2006, 04:17 AM

So how do you justify saying FLG aren't a political group when they stage ongoing political protests all over the world? How can they say they aren't a religion when Li and his followers use overtly religious language and try to convert people to their religious goals?

Exposing the ccp's genocide , that is not politics. Falun Gong has no political agenda, does not care about how to control a country, how the social system should be, Falun Gong practitioners only want the freedom of belief.

David Jamieson

06-19-2006, 06:00 AM

Here's a smattering of stuff...

http://www.falungonginfo.org/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/LIhome.html

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9342089?tocId=9342089

http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun286.html

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200102/05/eng20010205_61564.html

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/falungong.html

Here's what the evil PRC thinks about it all:

http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ppflg/t36564.htm

juna, read that guys experiences at falundafainfo.org
See how all these sites talk about FG/D and Li and aren't clearnet or other FGD sites?

anyway...

Juna

06-19-2006, 12:31 PM

Here's what the evil PRC thinks about it all:

anyway...

If sby hopes to be cheated by ccp, that is his own choice.

To understand Falun Dafa:

http://www.faluninfo.net/

David Jamieson

06-19-2006, 01:04 PM

scholar

06-19-2006, 01:23 PM

Yeah, I don't need a bunch of New Age links to understand Falungong.

It is, even within its own framework, an inconsistent attempt at an apocalyptic personality cult based on Buddhism and Taoism (without any actual Buddhism or Taoism in it, though, apparently) a confidence scheme dependant on uncritical devotion from gullible fanatics and run by a cowardly, delusional charlatan.

If the Falungong exercises hypnotise the weak minded into believing the claptrap about demons and aliens, it isn't much of a leap to believe that Li is more powerful than Jesus, Lao Tzu or Buddha, and that only Li can implant his magical seed in them to save them.

Right...

jethro

06-19-2006, 03:33 PM

I think I have not ignored things, but answering needs time.

I think juna is just trying to make this the longest thraead ever. Good job so far juna.

SimonM

06-21-2006, 06:09 AM

Hey KL. Just leave Juna alone. He's a nut. Everyone knows he is a nut. Anyone he actually convinces to join the Falun Daffies with his innane blather is going to be nothing but a weak willed nut anyways. We've got 22 pages of sensible people telling him to lay off the crack. I think that's enough.:D

Juna

06-22-2006, 04:02 AM

Dr. Wenyi Wang, who protested during a welcome ceremony at the White House for Chinese leader Hu Jintao on April 20, reached an agreement with prosecutors in which all charges will be dropped against her, she said on Wednesday.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-6-22/43061.html

Good news.

David Jamieson

06-22-2006, 05:16 AM

CaptinPickAxe

06-22-2006, 10:58 PM

This guy is beyond crack...

He's been smoking the PCP of satan out of a bowl made from Hitler's skull.

Did you notice the blinders on him? The only thing he does is post biased websites that "re-enforce" the Falun Gong message. It's like me posting extreme libral websites that say Bush is the devil or a conservative website declaring Bush a saint...

IT JUST DON'T CUT IT, PAL!

Juna

06-23-2006, 04:48 AM

If sby wants to understand Taiji, then you warn him, no donot go to the websites introducing Taiji, go to a reporter to learn what Taiji is.

David Jamieson

06-23-2006, 05:08 AM

If sby wants to understand Taiji, then you warn him, no donot go to the websites introducing Taiji, go to a reporter to learn what Taiji is.

the point is Juna, we have read the fgd sites, we have read what Li has to say, we have read the articles etc etc etc etc.

Many of us have found the FGD lacking in real substance and hence the somewhat negative view on what is considered a negative thing(fgd).

Your example is tautological. There is a long standing tradition of referenced affirmation of anything.

scholar

06-23-2006, 08:34 AM

At the risk of further perpetuating this Franken-thread...

The fundamental difference between Taijiquan and Falungong is that TJQ (at best) is a system that can be approached, studied and then learned with a personal investment of work, sweat and study by any person with the help of a teacher. The teacher is necessary only at first, then they aren't - FLG "cultivation" is something that only Li Hongzhi can give you from the outside, ever, and that after you turn your entire intellectual, psychic and emotional life to him. Taijiquan (despite what some hippie "TJQ teachers" may tell you) encourages independance, FLG preaches eternal dependance on the mad "living Buddha" Li Hongzhi.

There is a famous line from the Taijiquan classics that is posted for all to see on nice calligraphy scrolls in Wu family schools around the world:

"To enter the door and be shown the way, you must be orally taught.
The practice must be uninterrupted, and the technique only achieved by studying it yourself."
~Song of Thirteen Postures~

which is almost the same as to say:

"I have been impressed with the urgency of doing. Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Being willing is not enough; we must do."
~Leonardo da Vinci~

scholar

06-24-2006, 06:34 AM

Well, that isn't what Li Hongzhi says.

This is from http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/europe1998a.htm

"Before, when I discussed enlightening, I expounded on a heavenly secret nobody had disclosed: “Cultivation depends on oneself, while gong depends on one’s master.” For thousands of years people have thought that they themselves were cultivating and elevating. Actually, you can’t achieve anything cultivating [on your own]. Nothing can be resolved if you don’t have a master taking care of you. That is, the real issues are resolved by your master—they’re resolved by the factors behind the Fa. Your own enlightening is only about your continuing to cultivate after you overcome difficulties in your practice. That’s what we mean by “your own enlightening.” As for truly enlightening to something from the principles, if this Fa doesn’t let you know it, you can’t enlighten to it no matter how you try."

It is one of Li's Hongzhi's central doctrines that he and he alone will implant a psychic wheel into your belly to save your soul. In his lectures he puts himself forward as more powerful than Jesus, Buddha, or any God or gods in the history of mankind. You may say it isn't true, but the evidence is there to prove otherwise, sorry.

Juna

06-24-2006, 01:23 PM

If one has just read one or two articles, then he get some conclusion, is it enough?

While a Taiji student just knows how to raise his left hand, he concludes: Oh, Taiji is so slow, how can I protect myself using Taiji. And he says to himself: I have learned Taiji, I cannot be wrong, those legends about Taiji masters are lies.

scholar

06-24-2006, 07:47 PM

Arguing doesn't work for you, so out come the ad hominem insults. You routinely ignore the evidence others present, and make yourself look remarkably foolish in the process. This last one is the best one, the discussion board equivalent of "you're a doo-doo head!"

To be fair, anyone would have a hard time defending Li Hongzhi. He makes it very difficult for his followers to credibly argue for him and Falungong by his habit of routinely making inconvenient, patently insane claims...

:D

Juna

06-25-2006, 12:22 PM

Falun Dafa teaches people to be good, and has benefited 100 million people. Facing the evilest persecution, no single violence from Falun Dafa practitioners; Falun Dafa--Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance, has got countless awards from thousands of governments all over the world.

So, slanding a rightious practice and 100 million practitioners is not good.

scholar

06-25-2006, 08:18 PM

Just as you haven't provided any evidence that I have slandered anyone, you haven't provided any evidence that Falungong is "righteous". Just because someone says something is righteous or that they are good doesn't make it so. Everything I have said, I have provided evidence, or at least an argument for. That isn't slander. You don't answer my arguments or questions, you just insult people and repeat "Falungong good" in different ways over and over like a parrot.

I have studied Buddhism for the last 20 years. Li Hongzhi's teachings have nothing in common with them. As David and I have shown, the Buddha teaches us how to improve ourselves, Li only teaches us how to let him and his lunacy completely take over our intellectual psychic and emotional landscape. Again, I have provided evidence for these statements that you have completely ignored.

Also, there is no evidence beyond Li Hongzhi's word that there are 100 million practitioners. No one really knows.

So, wherein is the slander? Li Hongzhi really does say the things he is accused of. I have provided citations that anyone can look up. He really did flee China like a coward when the CCP came after his followers. He really doesn't teach a system that can do what neigong does. As well, it has little to do with Jesus, Taoism or Buddhism. He encourages slavish dependance on him, not self-reliance or dignity. All of these things are demonstrable.

You came to a martial arts discussion board looking for converts to a qigong-cult that says that the qigong taught by martial arts' schools aren't as good as it is. Falungong also teaches that no other religion is as good as it is. You can't even describe what "good" means in this context. You were asked to provide some evidence to support those positions and you didn't. At all. Please don't be surprised when this is continually pointed out to you by the people you are trying to convert. Either you should ask Li Hongzhi to prepare you better for our inconvenient questions, or you should perhaps find a better "master"?

Food for thought...

scholar

06-26-2006, 05:22 AM

Those figures all estimate 70 million, except the first one, uncited, which puts 100 million as a top number. That is a 30 million person difference. 30 million is a lot of people.

In other words, you don't know.

And you still aren't answering my other arguments...

Juna

06-26-2006, 12:39 PM

I have studied Buddhism for the last 20 years. ...

Count the sects in Buddhism, Tian Tai, Hua Yan, Jing Tu, Chan... no more than 10 sects, so can these sects in Buddhism conclude all the 84,000 pathways? no.

Juna

06-26-2006, 12:44 PM

Those figures all estimate 70 million, except the first one, uncited, which puts 100 million as a top number. That is a 30 million person difference. 30 million is a lot of people.

Notice here, at least 70 million.

70 ~ 100 million was the result from State Sports Administration.

scholar

06-26-2006, 02:02 PM

The Buddha of the future will have to understand Gautama Buddha's teachings, though. I don't think that you or Li do. You didn't even know that Gautama Buddha taught the cure for suffering.

Every person has their own unique path to enlightenment. Buddha's method of the four noble truths is one way to discover your own and the eightfold path is one way to travel it. Taoism has theirs, other religions have theirs, and even some styles of kung fu have theirs. Which path suits a person best is a business for that person's heart to sort through, not a cowardly cult-leader.

Li Hongzhi wants to take my responsibility for my finding my path and then following it away from me and substitute his truth and his path for mine. He is horribly wrong in trying to do that, and the karma he creates for himself thereby will torture him for ages, IMO. Any time someone tries to impose their will on another it violates their original truth, as we are all individuals with unique gifts and lessons to learn. Some of us have learned the lessons Li Hongzhi has yet to understand. It is OK to teach a technique to a standard, it isn't OK to control a person for their entire life, and it certainly isn't OK to demand eternal dependance on a "master".

I forgive Li for his delusions of grandeur, and I feel sorry for him for what the guy is doing to himself. He must be at such a low level in his development that he feels it necessary to have to do the things he does to people.

I will never let him or his followers, or people like them try to tell me that they are somehow, by some magic spell, automatically better people than my teachers were, without an argument. Especially when Falungong and Li Hongzhi's other examples are so lame. Any cult leader who tries to tell me that they know me better than I know myself is going to have to prove it. Li Hongzhi, Mantak Chia, Moy Lin-shin, Suma Ching Hai, Ashida Kim or the rest of the growing crowd of New Age fruit loops out there haven't even come close.

Also, Bagua master Sun Lu-t'ang, student of Cheng Ting-hua, student of Dong Hai-ch'uan was considered a neigong expert. Perhaps the Bagua teacher you studied under just didn't know any?

David Jamieson

06-27-2006, 07:41 AM

Falun Dafa disciples cultivate acoording to the nature of the universe, and constantly improve our characters, and try to be a good person, a better person, a selfless person.

If a person does not improve himself, even if he claims he is a disciple of Falun Gong, no use, cultivation is a matter of oneself.

Falun Gong Stories

A Journey to Enlightenment

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/download/publications/enlighten_index.html

well JUna, what have you cultivated? How have you improved your character and how has fdg helped you imp[rove your character.

would you mind telling us what the flaw of character was to begin with that you need to change it?

How are you now a good person when you were not before?

How are you selfless now? How does FDG help this state of being? I haven't read anything about it that says this method produces this result.

How does FGD method improve a person?

Juna

06-29-2006, 01:02 PM

well JUna, what have you cultivated? How have you improved your character and how has fdg helped you imp[rove your character.

would you mind telling us what the flaw of character was to begin with that you need to change it?

How are you now a good person when you were not before?

How are you selfless now? How does FDG help this state of being? I haven't read anything about it that says this method produces this result.

How does FGD method improve a person?

I was eager to make money, and had a strong desire of lust, now I know the real meaning of life, so I donot care too much about personal gain, I have a heart of helping others.

I was very weak when I was a child, now I have kept heathy for 10 years for practicing Falun Dafa.

Falun Dafa's profound teaching and great benefit has made so many practitioners believe this is a righteous practice.

Peace

GLW

06-29-2006, 01:56 PM

"I was eager to make money, and had a strong desire of lust"

And this lessening of greed and lust is due to FG. How about due to getting older and wiser. I know many people that had lust...and they grew out of it....or they got married and out of natural timing, they grew out of it....

While FG MAY have been your road to this, it is by no means the only road or in any way provable to be the best or even a good road.

Then again, if you are willingly giving your money to promote FG, you might as well become detached from a desire for making money since you ARE becoming detached from your actual money.

"now I know the real meaning of life, so I donot care too much about personal gain, I have a heart of helping others."

SO you KNOW the meaning of life - is Monty Python in there somewhere (talk about an arrogant statement). But, seriously, if that is possible here, exactly HOW aside from preaching "Falun Gong" from the rooftops have you started helping others?

"I was very weak when I was a child, now I have kept heathy for 10 years for practicing Falun Dafa."

ANY form of Qi Gong practice or Taijiquan can offer the self same benefits. Again, you have not shown that this is the best or even a good way....simply one of many ways...and from your hero worship, I would say the price is to high.

While attaining selflessness is a good thing, you can't do it by divesting in your own self while investing in the self of another (like Li Hongzhi).

"Falun Dafa's profound teaching and great benefit has made so many practitioners believe this is a righteous practice. "

Now there is a great pice of logical thinking.

Hmmm...and many people in the 1930's in Germany BELIEVED that Hitler was an ok guy to elect. Many people in the US today BELIEVE that what has happened in Guatanamo is no big thing. Many people in the US today BELIEVE that OJ was innocent, that there was/was not a gunman on the grassy knoll, that Bush is a good/horrible president, that there were / were not WMD's in Iraq....ad nauseam

Belief has never made a thing so. Repeating something often and loudly does not make it true...it may make it annoying and it may make it be believed by many...but it can never make something true.

Blinders are interesting....only when they are on horses.