FALUN GONG/Falun Dafa

[Juna]

After reading the independent investigative report by former Canadian MP Mr David Kilgour and renowned international human rights lawyer Mr. David Matas, Father Feng Chi-wood - former Member of Hong Kong's Legislative council said that he is confident of the credibility of this report. He said: "These two men come from a professional background and I agree with their analysis."

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-7-13/43877.html

Really a shame.

[scholar]

Wow, doing Falungong must be really bad luck! Those poor people. Too bad Li Hongzhi has ruined their lives like that...

[KC Elbows]

So, first, these people got ripped off with the belief that only one person could give them health and happiness, all they had to do was risk their lives to follow him, then they lost their health doing exactly what he said?

Why didn't he see that coming to them, and instead say "Only if you follow me, you can have happiness and health, except you, who will lose your spleen in prison"?

It just seems fairly obvious that that would happen, and I am not even a savior.

It's one thing to die for freedom, but to die for health? Kind of a stupid dogma.

[Juna]

Wow, doing Falungong must be really bad luck! ...

They were very heathy and happy because of practicing Falun Gong, but evil ccp murdered them.

[Juna]

So, first, these people got ripped off with the belief that only one person could give them health and happiness, all they had to do was risk their lives to follow him, then they lost their health doing exactly what he said?



Not exactly, Falun Gong practitioners believe in Truthfulness, benevolence and Forbearance.

[Juna]

It's one thing to die for freedom, but to die for health? Kind of a stupid dogma.

Falun Gong practitioners believe in Truthfulness, benevolence and Forbearance, not only for health

[GLW]

Endure - huh?

Well then why are you not ENDURING your supposed persecution - preferably in SILENCE :)

[Juna]

Endure - huh?

Well then why are you not ENDURING your supposed persecution - preferably in SILENCE :)

Endure:
Have you heard a single violence from a Falun gong practitioner during the 7 years' evil persecutin?

Silence, facing the evil, keeping silence is the connivance to evil, right? That is against the nature of Truthfulness and Compassion.

[GLW]

Actually...silence when no one is listening is natural...you are unnatural

Actually going to WHERE the alleged atrrocities are being done and laying something on the line to fight it would be brave and truthful with yourself...

But you like to preach but do nothing.

Compassion...when did you actually help anyone that had NOTHING to do with trying to convert them to your cult? To do a kindness and move on would be compassion. You always have an ulterior motive - FG good.... in mind for everything you do.

Hypocritical it would seem.

And cowardly. Now, the guy who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square...he had guts. you...:eek:

[David Jamieson]

we'll see what comes of the alegations I suppose.

My bet is on "zero".

Trying to move CHina on matters of internal policy is akin to pulling teeth from a crocodile with only tweezers and no gear to ensure the croc stays put.

Listen Juna, FGD is piggy backing on the works of people who are really trying to make a difference in China. Falun Gong is like a mute retarded kid who stands there next to someone who is doing something for real and just tries to appear to be part of it.

FGD has done nothing in the way of moving towards a more democratic China.

It's what is known as an emminence front, a put on. A flash, no substance, and what strange weird flash it is coming from them. A charismatic lunatic for a leader who swears you cannot be anything without him to show you what to be. This is a cult. If you don't uinderstand that, then I would have to say that you are a particularly stupid human being.

FGD has co-opted and corrupted what were otherwise useful practices and has twisted them to the agenda of Li to increase membership and dollars for himself to continue with his fantasy of being jesus like.

Juna, you wanna really do something positive and good, then join a group that is doing positive and good and get yoruself outta Li's cult before your head is complete mush.

[GLW]

David : EXACTLY SO! well put

[RAF]

The evil that the falun gong has perpetrated has been the deaths of their own members resulting the teachings of this cult.

How many falun gong members have died as a result of these misguided teachings?

Who keeps count? How many people have been lured to their deaths because of this horrible belief system? How many have been denied the benefits of modern medicine?

What sacrifices has your leader made? For whom? Where? Why?

I suggest you get a hold of Christopher Lasch's old book THE CULTURE OF NARCISSISM and take a good look at what the falun gong feeds on.

The falun gong are tragic and sad.

[scholar]

But you get to be a member of a super-secret special club that is the most advanced and spiritual in all of history. To be a member of the mystical super-best-friends, all you have to do is exactly repeat the magic spells that "master" tells you. "Master" is more spiritually powerful then Jesus, Buddha and Lao Tzu put together!!! You don't have to work on yourself, you don't have to grow personally or figure anything out, "master" will put his seed in you and you will be a god. Everyone else, no matter what they say or what arguments or proofs they offer, is against you, but that is OK, unless you can convince them to learn the magic spells too the "rectification" will "weed them out".

[Juna]

A former Beijing policeman and member of the Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (CIPFG) revealed that there is an 'assembly line' system of organ harvesting in Beijing and the Chinese Communist regime forcefully removes people's organs without their consent. After a prisoner is sentenced to death in China, the actual date of his death seems to depend on the needs of transplant operations.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-7-17/43990.html

evil ccp!

[KC Elbows]

we'll see what comes of the alegations I suppose.

My bet is on "zero".

Trying to move CHina on matters of internal policy is akin to pulling teeth from a crocodile with only tweezers and no gear to ensure the croc stays put.

Listen Juna, FGD is piggy backing on the works of people who are really trying to make a difference in China. Falun Gong is like a mute retarded kid who stands there next to someone who is doing something for real and just tries to appear to be part of it.

FGD has done nothing in the way of moving towards a more democratic China.

It's what is known as an emminence front, a put on. A flash, no substance, and what strange weird flash it is coming from them. A charismatic lunatic for a leader who swears you cannot be anything without him to show you what to be. This is a cult. If you don't uinderstand that, then I would have to say that you are a particularly stupid human being.

FGD has co-opted and corrupted what were otherwise useful practices and has twisted them to the agenda of Li to increase membership and dollars for himself to continue with his fantasy of being jesus like.

Juna, you wanna really do something positive and good, then join a group that is doing positive and good and get yoruself outta Li's cult before your head is complete mush.


**** good post. Well said.

[Juna]

BOSTON—A U.S. attorney filed a criminal complaint against two Chinese doctors attending a World Transplantation Congress (WTC) conference in Boston Tuesday. The complaint accuses the two of overseeing forced organ removal from living Falun Gong prisoners of conscience in their hospitals.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-7-26/44278.html

evil will be punished.

[GLW]

Just when you thought this thread had died...

And - Exactly WHO is this person who filed the complaint? What connection does she have to Falun Gong? Who is then paying for the legal stuff? etc...

So a suit was filed...the question is by whom, for what purpose, and what are their motives...since we supposedly already know the PRC's motives.

An of course, Juna will NEVER answer or even acknowledge these questions.

[jethro]

Hey, I love Juna. That epoch times site is one of the very few sites I can get at work. It blows but is still good to check out evry once in a while. Thanks for the link Juna. Find me some good stuff on that site and post it:D

[SimonM]

Whoever did press the charges was a fool.

I don't think even an american court would be so bold as to try one foreigner for alleged crimes comitted upon another non-american while in another country.

[Juna]

Whoever did press the charges was a fool.

I don't think even an american court would be so bold as to try one foreigner for alleged crimes comitted upon another non-american while in another country.

Read here


Legal Actions (In chronological order) print E-mail
61. Nov 2005 Spain Bo Xilai
60. Nov 2005 United Kingdom Bo Xilai (Criminal)
59. Nov 2005 Australia Zhang Dejiang
58. Oct 2005 Canada Lin Yanzhi
57. Oct 2005 United States Huang Huahua (Criminal)
56. Oct 2005 Canada Huang Huahua
55. Sept 2005 United States Bo Xilai (Criminal)
54. Aug 2005 Denmark Jia Chunwang
53. July 2005 United States Xu Guangchun
52. July 2005 France Li Yuanwei
51. July 2005 Belgium Luo Gan, Zhou Yongkang, Liu Jing, Xu Yongyue
50. June 2005 Sweden Jiang Zemin, Li Lanqing, Luo Gan, Liu Jing, et. al.
49. April 2005 Japan Jiang Zemin, Li Lanqing, Luo Gan, Xia Deren, Chinese Embassy in Japan
48. Feb 2005 United States Guo Chuanjie
47. Jan 2005 Peru Zeng Qinghong, Jiang Zemin, Luo Gan, and Bo Xilai
46. Dec 2004 The Netherlands Jiang Zemin
45. Nov 2004 Spain Zhang Xiaoguang, Zhang Xianlin, Dong Zongfang and Gao Kuixianh
44. Nov 2004 Chile Jiang Zemin, Luo Gan, Bo Xilai and Li Lanqing
43. Nov 2004 Bolivia Jiang Zemin and Luo Gan
42. Nov 2004 Canada Jiang Zemin, Luo Gan, Liu Jing, Zhou Yongkang, Li Lanqing
41. Nov 2004 Canada Jiang Zemin, Li Lanqing, Luo Gan, Liu Jing, Wang Maolin
40. Nov 2004 Ireland Huang Ju
39. Nov 2004 Zambia Su Rong
38. Nov 2004 Malaysia Sun Xiang Yang and Sin Chew Daily
37. Oct 2004 New Zealand Zemin Jiang, Lanqing Li, Gan Luo
36. Sept 2004 Sweden Jiang Zemin
35. Sept 2004 Australia Jiang Zemin
34. Sept 2004 Spain Jia Qinglin
33. Aug 2004 Austria Jia Qinglin
32. Aug 2004 Greece Jiang Zemin, Li Lanqing, Luo Gan
31. July 2004 Tanzania Chen Zhili
30. July 2004 United States Zhao Zhizhen
29. July 2004 France Li Changchun
28. June 2004 United States Guan Liang et al
27. June 2004 United States Wang Xudong
26. June 2004 Poland Bo Xilai
25. May 2004 United States Wang Taihua
24. April 2004 United Kingdom Bo Xilai
23. April 2004 United States Bo Xilai
22. April 2004 Australia 2ac Chinese Daily
21. April 2004 United Nations Complaint of Cui-Ying Zhang
20. Mar 2004 Canada Jiang Zemin, Luo Gan, Liu Jing, Wu Guanzheng, et al
19. Jan 2004 France Sun Jiazheng
18. Dec 2003 Republic of Korea Jiang Zemin and Luo Gan
17. Nov 2003 Germany Jiang Zemin, Li Lanqing and Luo Gan
16. Nov 2003 Taiwan Jiang Zemin, Li Lanqing and Luo Gan
15. Oct 2003 Cyprus Wu Guanzheng
14. Oct 2003 Spain Jiang Zemin and Luo Gan
13. Sept 2003 Moldova Luo Gan
12. Sept 2003 Armenia Luo Gan
11. Sept 2003 Finland Luo Gan
10. Sept 2003 Iceland Luo Gan
9. Aug 2003 Belgium Jiang Zemin, Li Lanqing and Luo Gan
8. Dec 2002 France Li Lanqing
7. Oct 2002 United Nations Communication of Zenon Dolnyckyj et al
6. Oct 2002 United States Jiang Zemin, and Communist Party Falun Gong Control Office
5. April 2002 United States China Ministries of State Security, and Public Security, et al
4. Feb 2002 United States Xia Deren
3. Feb 2002 United States Liu Qi
2. June 2001 United States Zhao Zhifei
1. Feb 2001 United States Jian Hua Zhu, et al


http://www.flgjustice.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=15


On February 7, 2002, Center for Justice and Accountability, a US based human rights organization located in San Francisco, California and Terri Marsh, a D.C. based human rights attorney, who also practices Falun Gong, filed a civil action in the United States District Court of the Northern District of California, against Liu Qi, Mayor of Beijing, China on behalf of six Falun Gong practitioners.

The lawsuit is a civil action for compensatory and punitive damages for torts committed in violation of customary international law, including the prohibition of torture, other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, arbitrary detention, crimes against humanity, and interference with freedom of religion and belief, and of the prohibition on torture under the Alien Tort Claims Act and Torture Victim Protection Act, 28 U.S.C. § 1350.

Plaintiffs in this action are citizens of the People’s Republic of China, United States, Sweden, Australia, Germany, Canada, and France. Each plaintiff is a Falun Gong practitioner.

The complaint lists five claims for relief: torture; cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment; arbitrary detention, crimes against humanity, interference with freedom of religion and belief.

On June 11, 2003, a U.S. Magistrate Judge, Edward M. Chen denied foreign sovereign immunity to Defendant Liu Qi, and Deputy Provincial Governor of Liao Ning Province, Xia Deren (see Xia Deren). In a report submitted to the court, the Magistrate Judge recommended a guilty finding for both Defendants. The Report and Recommendation was amended on October 28, 2004.

On December 8, 2004 the court adopted Judge Chen's recommendations and issued a default judgment against Defendant Liu.

http://flgjustice.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=109

[SimonM]

Don't you get it yet Juna?

None of us care about your moonie knockoff cult. None of us will be converted to your dubious cause. Listing a long list of legal actions including at least one against Jiang Zemin? People can press charges all they like it doesn't mean the court has any authority.

[David Jamieson]

The Zambian Government's human rights record remained generally poor in 2001; however, there were some improvements in a few areas. Citizens' right to change their government was respected in presidential, parliamentary, and local government elections; however, there were credible allegations of election irregularities. Police officers reportedly committed several extrajudicial killings and frequently beat and otherwise abused criminal suspects and detainees. Police officers who commit such abuses often do so with impunity; however, some officers remained in detention pending trial. The lack of professionalism, investigatory skill, and discipline in the police force remained serious problems. Prison conditions were harsh and life threatening. The Government's commission of inquiry released its report into the alleged torture during detention of suspects in a 1997 coup attempt; however, the Government declined to take action against those accused in the report. Arbitrary arrests, prolonged detention, and long delays in trials remained problems. The courts exhibited increased independence by issuing a number of rulings against the Government or the MMD. Police infringed on citizens' privacy rights. Although there were indications of some relaxation, the Government generally continued to restrict press freedom. The Government restricted freedom of assembly. Human rights and civic organizations and political parties continued to complain of government harassment; however, these groups were instrumental in halting attempts by supporters of the President to amend the Constitution to allow him to seek a third term. Violence against women remained widespread. Women continued to experience discrimination in both law and fact, including the denial of widows' inheritance rights. Child abuse was a problem. Discrimination against persons with disabilities was a problem. Child labor was a problem in rural subsistence occupations and some urban occupations. There were reports of trafficking in persons.

Source: U.S. Department of State



Yeah, Zambia has authority to call the kettle black. :rolleyes:

[Juna]

When defendant Su failed again to appear in court on November 13, 2004 to answer charges of contempt of court, an arrest warrant was issued for the arrest of defendant Su. Policemen were dispatched to search for defendant Su. Defendant’s whereabouts is unknown at this time. It was reported that defendant may have snuck out of the country.


that ccp member is under the order of being arrested!

[David Jamieson]

that ccp member is under the order of being arrested!

Guy, you're talking about zambia here. Do you realize how foolish this makes your position look on top of anything else.

Do you honestly think Zambia has any clout at all? Any real jurisdiction? Zambia is a veritable ****hole run by warlords who wouldn't think twice about torturing or killing their own people to suit their needs.

Hardly an authority in a legal sense to even worth considering for one second.
anyway, next!

[JohnnyMnemonic]

I don't think even an american court would be so bold as to try one foreigner for alleged crimes comitted upon another non-american while in another country.

I guess you never heard of Guantanmo huh?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Hey, Juna. I have hear somethings about Li Hong Zi and I was wondering if you could confirm or deny what I've heard:

1. Li Hong Zi is the true heir to the Kingdome of Wing Chun as he ate Yip Man's remains
2. Li Hong Zi when angry he turns green and pukes bile to repel his enemies
3. As a child, Li Hong Zi was molested by a shaolin monk and recieved several shots of "Qi" to his face.
4. Li Hong Zi's diarreha is the color of Saturn in the summer time.
5. Li Hong Zi isn't from earth, but rather from planet Avon: A planet that doesn't believe in "No Soliciting."
6. His stench is so wretched that the Peoples Republic of China banished him to an island where he would die of crab infestation
7. Li Hong Zi is the love child of Alanis Morsette and Chairman Mao.

[David Jamieson]

I guess you never heard of Guantanmo huh?

as far as I know, all of gitmo's prisoners are there for crimes against the USA or people of the USA. Gitmo doesn't hold chinese soldiers for crimes against canadians for instance.

[Juna]

Hey, Juna. I have hear somethings .

that is lie.

[jethro]

If you trace up, you will find that is the ccp's agents' lies.


captain pickaxe, wtf, did you think you were gonna get an answer:D :D sorry for laughing so hard

[jethro]

is that as long as you can make a post? yawn

[David Jamieson]

speaking of libel, would you care to point out which decision it was that the superior court made in august of 2003?

here's all the decisions they made. http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/onsc/2003/08.html

if it was some other court, then you can access all decisions made by the courts by year at that same site and it covers each of the three courts of ontario.

Interestingly enough, there is no archive of the stated letter that sparked the alleged lawsuit at the toronto star.

anyway, it's always helpful, as Ive stated before if youe FACT CHECK and STATE YOUR SOURCE.

freaking cult members.

[CaptinPickAxe]

If you trace up, you will find that is the ccp's agents' lies.

tool:D :D :D

[David Jamieson]

here's allthe decisions for feb 2004.
http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/onsc/2004/02.html

couldn't find it there either.
can you post the doc link juna?

[Juna]

here's allthe decisions for feb 2004.
http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/onsc/2004/02.html

couldn't find it there either.
can you post the doc link juna?

If you suspect, here is a link:


Victor in libel lawsuit against Chinese diplomat says money never paid
STEPHANIE LEVITZ

TORONTO (CP) - The man at the centre of a successful libel suit against a Chinese diplomat who described the Falun Gong spiritual movement as a "sinister cult" says he has yet to see a penny in damages.

An Ontario court had ordered Pan Xinchun, China's deputy consul-general in Canada, to pay $11,000 to Joel Chipkar after describing the Falun Gong practitioner as a member of a "sinister cult" in a letter to a Toronto newspaper.

But Chipkar, 36, still hasn't received any money despite another court order earlier this month that Pan's bank account be garnisheed to cover the costs - a sign, he said, that the Chinese government doesn't want to co-operate.

"It's not about the money," Chipkar said in an interview. "It's about the principle of stopping these people attacking people here in Canada."

Chipkar's lawyer, Peter Downard, said the bank - the government-owned Bank of China - has refused to comply with the garnishment order, but won't say why.

"We discovered that the account was empty," Downard said. "Obviously, there has to be a question whether that was a coincidence or not, but we don't know what the facts are."

David Chan, the bank's chief accountant and compliance officer, refused to discuss the case Wednesday.

The next step would be to subpoena Pan to testify about his assets, since the court has already ruled that Pan is not protected by diplomatic immunity, Downard said.

"Our view is that he has no immunity from being required to testify under oath."

In a letter to the court, however, the Chinese government strenuously claimed otherwise, arguing the case represented "an extremely serious issue with potential substantial consequences for the state relations between Canada and China."

http://www.cp.org/english/online/full/religion/040729/2072902AU.html

[David Jamieson]

ok, which court and where's the order though?
and where is the torontostar article you speak of in the posts.

not to mention, this all looks like a trump up for the benefit of teh fg propoganda again.

Bringing suit, not having someone to sue in court and then not being able to serve and order? all very odd don't you think?

[Juna]

ok, which court and where's the order though?
and where is the torontostar article you speak of in the posts.


North America - Canada - Falun Gong

"Court seeks diplomat's assets"

by Chris Lackner ("The Globe and Mail," July 29, 2004)

An Ontario court has filed a notice to seize the personal assets of a Chinese diplomat found liable for defaming a Canadian Falun Gong practitioner.

The Ontario Superior Court ruled in February that Pan Xinchun, the Chinese deputy consul-general in Toronto, defamed Falun Gong supporter Joel Chipkar in a letter that appeared April 25, 2003, in the Toronto Star.

Mr. Pan's letter was a response to an earlier letter by Mr. Chipkar that berated the Canadian government for not condemning China's alleged political corruption and human-rights abuses.

Acting on the request of Mr. Chipkar and his lawyer, the Ontario Superior Court issued a Notice of Garnishment against Mr. Pan on July 14. Garnishment allows creditors to secure outstanding debts without a debtor's direct co-operation, through a debtor's financial institution or employer, for example.

"This is not about the money, it's about the principle. . . . It's about accountability and visiting officials here not being able to attack Canadians with impunity," Mr. Chipkar said.

At the February ruling, the presiding judge concluded that Mr. Pan was not acting in his official capacity when he made statements about Mr. Chipkar and was therefore not protected by diplomatic immunity. Mr. Pan did not attend in his defence. The judge awarded Mr. Chipkar $1,000 for the defamation and compensation for his legal fees that amounted to $10,000.

"The immunity of consulate officials -- who are not full diplomats -- is subject to limits within the law," said Peter Downard, Mr. Chipkar's lawyer.

Attempts to access funds in Mr. Pan's personal account at the Bank of China, which is owned by the Chinese government, have been unsuccessful, Mr. Downard said. He added that the bank's Toronto branch informed him there was no money in Mr. Pan's account.

The Bank of China's Toronto branch would not confirm receiving a garnishment notice or whether Mr. Pan even holds an account with the institution. "As a banker, we can't disclose any kind of correspondence in relation to our customers," said David Chan, the bank's chief accountant and compliance officer.

The defamation case against Mr. Pan prompted the Chinese government to release a statement on Mar. 12 through Toronto-based law firm Davies Ward Phillips & Vineberg: "Mr. Pan was protecting the interests of PRC [the People's Republic of China] in Canada, and acting on the instructions of PRC to respond to an attack. . . . Mr. Pan was acting in the exercise of consular functions and is thus immune from Canadian courts' jurisdiction."

Inquiries made yesterday to both the Chinese Consulate-General in Toronto and Davies Ward Phillips & Vineberg were met with no response.

Mr. Downard said his client could serve Mr. Pan notice to attend a judgment-debtor examination to explain his lack of payment and disclose any assets he may hold.

According to its post-ruling statement, China made numerous unsuccessful requests to the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to intervene in the case and clarify Canada's position on consular immunity. "This is an extremely serious issue . . . with potential substantial consequences for the state of relations between Canada and China."

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=9004&sec=25&con=5

[Juna]

DAVID KILGOUR: I'm surprised because just about everyone who has read it from Europe, from Brussels to Berlin to Paris to London that I've spoken to is persuaded any reasonable person reading the report would think that we are right. As you know, we give 18 different kinds of evidence. Mostly the most convincing, as you know, is the people in these institutions telling us, essentially, that they have Falun Gong prisoners ready and available to be harvested and we give websites in China telling people who can come and have organ transplants within a week. We give, for example, today I was... a resident of Canberra, Chen Yang, was telling us how she was treated abominably while she was in a work camp, but only the Falun Gong prisoners were examined carefully medically, with blood tests, their computer-assisted blood transplants. From the 18 kinds of evidence we looked that the case is simply overwhelming. As terrible as this is, that this is happening on a large scale in many locations in China.


http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1715849.htm

Evil ccp

[Juna]

Bu Dongwei, also known as David Bu, was assigned to two-and-a-half years’ “Re-education through Labour” (RTL) on 19 June in connection with his activities as a member of the Falun Gong spiritual movement. He is detained at an undisclosed location, and Amnesty International considers him to be a prisoner of conscience. He is at serious risk of torture or ill-treatment.

http://www.amnesty.ca/take_action/actions/china_bu_dongwei.php


evil ccp

[jethro]

I think you are trying to tell me the CCP is evil. I could be mistaken though.

[Juna]

[/QUOTE]
I think you are trying to tell me the CCP is evil. I could be mistaken though.

Yes, but not enough.


If a person teasing at the victims of the evil, and giving the space for the evil's existence. Not good.


European Parliament Resolution Urges Major Chinese Reforms


The European Parliament adopted a resolution Friday expressing alarm over a range of Chinese economic, foreign policy, environmental, and human rights issues, including the forced removal of organs from imprisoned Falun Gong practitioners.


http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-9-9/45824.html

[David Jamieson]

wtf is wrong with you juna?

watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a15KgyXBX24

[David Jamieson]

Dude, you cannot incite change, it's hard enough to even try to inspire it. Be the change in teh world that you want to see an ddon't worry about others so much. One can have compassion without owning.

[David Jamieson]

I don't know what an individual conscience has to do with spreading propaganda.
Or throwing out what you think is right and trying to convince everyone else of it.
Do the rightthing as you are able. Don't expect others to buy into what you have to say. Particularly not when what you are peddling has been held suspect all too many times before.

[Juna]

International Religious Freedom Report 2006


International Religious Freedom Report 2006
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

The constitution provides for freedom of religious belief and the freedom not to believe; however, the Government seeks to restrict religious practice to government-sanctioned organizations and registered places of worship and to control the growth and scope of activities of religious groups. The Government tries to control and regulate religion to prevent the rise of groups that could constitute sources of authority outside of the control of the Government and the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Nonetheless, membership in many faiths is growing rapidly.

During the period covered by this report, the Government's respect for freedom of religion and freedom of conscience remained poor, especially for religious groups and spiritual movements that are not registered with the Government. Unregistered religious groups continued to experience varying degrees of official interference and harassment. Members of some unregistered religious groups were subjected to restrictions, including intimidation, harassment, and detention. Unregistered religious groups were pressured to register with government organs and government-sanctioned "patriotic" religious associations linked to the five main religions--Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, Catholicism, and Protestantism.

Religious practice and worship in officially sanctioned and unregistered places of worship continued to grow throughout the country, as did the number of religious believers. The extent of religious freedom varied widely within the country. For example, officials in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (Xinjiang) tightly controlled religious activity, while elsewhere in the country, Muslims enjoyed greater religious freedom. Followers of Tibetan Buddhism, including in the Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region and Tibetan areas of the country (see separate appendix), also faced more restrictions on their religious practice and ability to organize than Buddhists in other parts of the country. In most areas of the country, religious believers could worship without difficulty in officially approved venues. The Government in some locations built new places of worship to accommodate increasing numbers of religious believers.







http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71338.htm

[David Jamieson]

I am of the thinking that touting a false prophet as truth will lead to regret, but hey, tomato, tomato right? :rolleyes:

you're persistent. so far your only redeeming virtue. Too bad you're so absorbed with such a pack of nutcases, frauds and general strangeness.

cest la vie.

[jethro]

Juna is consitent but weak. If I was appointed his position of tryign to gain followers I would have branded everyone with the FG logo by now.

[jethro]

I think no one has any position to gain followers here, everyone has the freedom to do what he likes, I am trying to arose back sby's conscience which he has lost.

Your English is still pretty iffy but I think I know what you mean. The only thing is is that you don't seem to realize that no one really cares and you can't change peoples opinions about Falun Gong. Maybe a a couple hundred years ago you could have, but the things that I and everybody else sees from your group is just too outrageous for anyone to want to be part of them. I would rather answer that email that is sent every Valentine's day asking peope to commit suicide.

[lunghushan]

This Falun Gong nonsense is just totally off topic, Juna.

[Juna]

but the things that I and everybody else sees from your group is just too outrageous for anyone to want to be part of them.

The whole world knows Falun Gong is good!

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/recognition.html

[bodhitree]

Why do people still post here? You either like falun gong or you don't. Personally I think its a stupid and silly cult, but I don't want to change anyone else's opinion of it. Don't waste your time typing these replies and let this tired thread die already.

[Juna]

Personally I think its a stupid and silly cult, but I don't want to change anyone else's opinion of it.

That is the result of ccp's lies and propaganda.

[bodhitree]

The CCP's lies have not brainwashed me, I get no information from the CCP. I have met Falon Gongers and, well, those encounters have led me to that conclusion. I am not a buddhist, I have a username yes, but don't make an assumption like that, that would be irrational, just like falun gong.

[Juna]

The CCP's lies have not brainwashed me, I get no information from the CCP.

Some media of the world quoted the lies and propaganda from ccp, so if you read those stuff, you were brainwashed indirectly by ccp.

[unkokusai]

This **** thread is gonna last longer than that silly cult! :rolleyes:

[SPJ]

On organ science.

At first clone and grow a cell and then tissue -> and then organ.

one day, there will be organ farms. they only need DNA of your hairs and grow an organ just for you.

because if the organ is not from you will be rejected by you from your immune system.

:eek:

[bodhitree]

This threads days are numbered...

[Royal Dragon]

Outside of Juna, is there any evidence that Organ harvesting is actually going in In China? I thought that only happened in New Orleans.

[RAF]

There are concerns about using the organs of executed prisoners for organ donation. China has the highest number of executions although I believe the US may be second or third. However, they aren't executing members of the cult Falun Gong.

Logic and facts don't apply here. What you are dealing with is are deep rooted, dysfunctional emotional complexes and you can't discuss anything with these people unless you unconditionally accept their belief system. To do that would be to affirm their psychosis and that's not healthy for anyone.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not so concerned about the use of organs form executed prisoners really. I'd be more concerned as to why they were executed in the first place.

I'm talking about taking Organs from live peopel period, because they are poor and easily pillaged to bennifit someone who has money. Is there evidence that that occures in China?

[Juna]

Is there evidence that that occures in China?


Summary of Organ Harvesting in China

China's history of organ harvesting from prisoners
In 1993, Amnesty International reported organ harvesting from prisoners on a widespread scale. In 1994, Human Rights Watch also provided compelling evidence which included text of a government decree on the subject. [1]

In 1998, Fresenius Medical Care AG, a German kidney dialysis company, pulled out of China, claiming that the Chinese military officials had probably made it an unintentional accomplice in the selling of organs from executed prisoners to wealthy foreigners. [2] In the same year, the European Parliament passed a resolution condemning the sale of organs of executed Chinese prisoners. In 2001 a Chinese doctor, Wang Guoqi, testified before the U.S. House of Representatives Subcommittee on Human Rights, where he described coordinated procedures between surgeons and Chinese government officials to extract prisoners' organs immediately after executions which were "intentionally botched" so as to not damage the organs. [3]

In 2005, The Times reported that although China has denied for many years that organ harvesting of prisoners as a trade exists, Huang Jiefu, the Deputy Health Minister, acknowledged that the practice is indeed widespread. The article explains the main reason for using prisoners: "The supply of organs in China is severely restricted because of religious traditions that require the body to be whole when it enters the afterlife." [4]

Faced with the accumulating evidence and numerous media reports, on 19 April 2006 the British Transplantation Society (BTS) publicly condemned the practice of extracting organs from executed prisoners without consent as an "unacceptable" human rights violation.

Why Falun Gong prisoners of conscience are particularly vulnerable
In 1998, the Chinese Communist regime's survey found 70-100 million people were practising Falun Gong, a peaceful meditation practice of the Buddhist school. Feeling threatened by such a large group that was not under his control, the leader of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) banned Falun Gong in 1999 giving the direct order to "Destroy their reputation, bankrupt them financially and annihilate them physically." [5]

Since the ban, these tens of millions of people have been placed outside the protection of the law in China. They are refused education and social support, fired from their jobs, imprisoned without trial, and are tortured in forced labour camps, where deaths of Falun Gong practitioners "count as suicide". Many practitioners who were arrested often refuse to disclose their names and personal details for fear of implicating their families, friends and colleagues.

These situations make Falun Gong practitioners particularly vulnerable, since the regime can remove their organs without being held accountable for their actions. Victims' family members have no way of knowing what is happening to them and when it is too late, no legal recourse afterwards.

Recent information of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners
In March 2006, The World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG) confirmed through its investigations that hospitals and transplant centres in China claim to use organs taken from live Falun Gong practitioners for transplants. [6]

In April, 2006, The Weekly Standard interviewed the wife of a Chinese surgeon who claims to have performed organ removals for many years from Falun Gong practitioners at a secret organ extraction facility attached to the Liaoning Thrombus Treatment Centre in Sujiatun, near Shenyang, "he and the other doctors - some hired from the outside, each with a speciality, all constantly on call - would come in and remove the patient's kidneys, skin tissue, corneas, and other organs, seemingly to order." [7]

The same woman told The Epoch Times: "Some [Falun Gong] practitioners were still breathing after their organs were removed against their will, but they were thrown into the hospital's incinerator anyway." Organs extracted from live persons are known to fetch higher prices. [8]

The scale of the problem
The true number of imprisoned Falun Gong practitioners is not known. In December 2002, The Economist reported that in the labour camp it visited 28% of the incarcerated were practitioners of Falun Gong. Even if one accepts the Chinese official total labour camp population of 260,000, which is widely believed to be a serious underestimate, there would be 70,000 practitioners incarcerated at that given moment. The total number over the past 7 years would be many times higher. According to the UN Special Rapporteur on the subject of torture and detention, his 2005 report raised the concern that in China "reports of arrests, detention ... in particular Falun Gong practitioners, are increasing". [9]

According to the Communist regime's official statistics, there were only 78 liver transplants in China during the eight years between 1991 and 1998. Since the regime started to suppress Falun Gong in 1999, the number of liver transplants rocketed from 118 in 1999 to over 3000 in 2003 [10]. This sharp rise during the time of a major suppression campaign may not be a pure coincidence.

Investigations

The Chairman of the British Transplantation Society Ethics Committee, Dr. Stephen Wigmore, recently called for an investigation by the United Nations and the World Health Organization on this issue. [11][12]

The difficulty of conducting independent investigation in China is well known and this has been demonstrated again on 21st May when Edward McMillan-Scott, a European Parliament Vice-President, held a secret meeting with two Falun Gong practitioners in a Beijing hotel. One of them was subsequently held under house arrest, the other hasn't been heard from since. An American who facilitated the meeting was interrogated and deported.

"The practitioners I met in Beijing told me of their imprisonment and that of their wives, of the specially harsh treatment they suffered, including sleep deprivation, degrading and humiliating punishments and beatings... One said he knew 30 fellow practitioners who had been beaten to death. They were aware of organ harvesting: one had seen the cadaver of his friend and fellow practitioner after body parts had been removed."
– Edward McMillan-Scott, Vice President of the European Parliament [13]

On 8 May 2006, Canada's former Secretary of State (Asia Pacific) David Kilgour and international human rights lawyer, David Matas, launched an investigation into the allegations of organ harvesting from live Falun Gong practitioners. The 46-page report which was released on 7 July concludes:

"the government of China and its agencies in numerous parts of the country, in particular hospitals but also detention centres and 'people's courts', since 1999, have put to death a large but unknown number of Falun Gong prisoners of conscience. Their vital organs, including hearts, kidneys, livers and corneas, were virtually simultaneously seized for sale at high prices, sometimes to foreigners, who normally face long waits for voluntary donations of such organs in their home countries."[14]

http://petition.fofg.org.uk/organharvesting/

[David Jamieson]

is the problem the supply? or the demand?

[Juna]

Organ sales 'thriving' in China

Chinese officials say the prisoners volunteer to donate their organs
The sale of organs taken from executed prisoners appears to be thriving in China, an undercover investigation by the BBC has found.
Organs from death row inmates are sold to foreigners who need transplants.

One hospital said it could provide a liver at a cost of £50,000 ($94,400), with the chief surgeon confirming an executed prisoner could be the donor.

China's health ministry did not deny the practice, but said it was reviewing the system and regulations.

'Present to society'

The BBC's Rupert Wingfield-Hayes visited No 1 Central Hospital in Tianjin, ostensibly seeking a liver for his sick father.

Officials there told him that a matching liver could be available in three weeks.

One official said that the prisoners volunteered to give their organs as a "present to society".

It is a complete fabrication... to say that China forcibly takes organs from the people given the death penalty for the purpose of transplanting them

Qin Gang
Foreign ministry spokesman
28 March 2006


Send us your views

He said there was currently an organ surplus because of an increase in executions ahead of the 1 October National Day.

China executes more prisoners than any other country in the world. In 2005, at least 1,770 people were executed, although true figures were believed to be much higher, a report by human rights group Amnesty International said.

In March, China's foreign ministry admitted that organs from prisoners were used, but said that it was only in "a very few cases".

Spokesman Qin Gang said that the organs were not taken forcibly, but only with the express permission of the convict.

But whether prisoners really are free to make up their own minds on organ donation just before they are executed is not at all clear, our correspondent says.

In April 2006, top British transplant surgeons condemned the practice as unacceptable and a breach of human rights.

But the No 1 Central Hospital carried out 600 liver transplants last year, our correspondent says, and the organ transplant industry has become big business.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5386720.stm

[golden arhat]

i have practiced falun gong and it was quite a good experience in fact it was my first experience with chi
i do ba duan jin excercises and feel very similar why arent chi gung ppl being persecuted? there must be a reason seeing as chi gung is quite a peaceful and calming practice :confused:

[David Jamieson]

regular qigong practitioners aren't persecuted because they aren't fronting a political agenda such as fd/fg does.

fd/fg tells you they are about the qigongs, but in reality, they are a cult that uses a faux politicak agenda read: blame prc for everything wrong in the world and spread this story in alien cultures to gain sympathy for their cause (whatever that might be)

being part of a borg like collective is not my bag and fg/fd has never clearly delineated what their purpose or goal is. They iterate and reiterate "falun gong is good" it's even on their signs everywhere. People in yellow jackets who won't or can't answer important questions about their organization and resort back to silence, dissing the prc and dodging the questions regarding Li Hongxi, the questionable practice of refusing medical attention leading to the deaths of their own followers, the draining of resources from their members to fund the coffers of those higher ups in their organization and so on.

classic cult stuff. and they just love it when some doe eyed westerner jumps on board the sympathy train with them and without any evidence whatsoever will tow the line.

ah well, you can't legislate against stupidity I guess.

[Juna]

regular qigong practitioners aren't persecuted because they aren't fronting a political agenda such as fd/fg does.

.

Not true


Reports of Sale of Executed Falun Gong Prisoners' Organs in China Called 'Shocking'
By Melinda Smith
Washington, DC
03 October 2006

watch Organ Harvest report / Real broadband - download video clip
watch Organ Harvest report / Real broadband video clip
watch Organ Harvest report / Real dialup - download video clip
watch Organ Harvest report / Real dialup video clip

The Chinese government has been accused of harvesting organs from executed Falun Gong prisoners for sale to wealthy patients in need. The chairman of a U.S. House of Representatives subcommittee called the issue "so shocking it represents a new form of evil." VOA's Carol Pearson narrates.

Falun Gong, protestor
Falun Gong protestor being arrested
These were Falun Gong protesters in Macau, China in the year 2000. News reports say the participants were later released. If true, these followers of the Chinese spiritual exercise were fortunate. Others were not.

While Falun Gong has attracted millions of followers, its supporters say thousands have been jailed and hundreds killed. How they were killed–and for what purpose—were troubling questions raised during a Congressional subcommittee hearing in Washington, D.C.

The subject was a report from human rights activists who say the Chinese government is supporting the sale of organs from Falun Gong prisoners who have been executed.

David Kilgour
David Kilgour
David Kilgour, a former Canadian cabinet minister, was among those who testified. "The government of China and its hospitals, detention centers and other agencies in numerous parts of the country, has over the past half decade put to death a large, but unknown number of Falun gong prisoners of conscience,” he said. “Most of the victims were convicted of nothing. They were murdered by medical professions for their vital organs. These organs were, virtually, simultaneously seized for sale at high prices, often to foreigners."

The study says 85 percent of organ transplants conducted in the hospitals in the Tianjin region were done on foreigners, and possibly wealthy foreigners. A website for the China International Organ Transplant Center lists a kidney transplant as costing $65,000 U.S., a lung transplant, $150,000 to $170,000, a heart transplant, in the range of $130,000 to $160,000 U.S.

The report indicates at least 60,000 transplants were done in China from 2000 to 2005. Of that number, 18,000 were from non-prison sources. The rest were unexplained. Meanwhile, the Chinese news media reported 1,000 executions in 2002. The human rights organization Amnesty International says the number of executions may be as high as 15,000.

Erping Zhang, Falun Gong spokesman
Erping Zhang, Falun Gong spokesman
The Chinese government outlawed Falun Gong in 1999. Falun Gong spokesman Erping Zhang insists the group has no political agenda and wants nothing more than to practice its beliefs peacefully. "Under these circumstances, we have been left with no choice but to speak out. Our goal has been simple and singular: to let our people, let other people hear our side of the story. And to expose those violating our rights and to, by doing so, end the genocide we face."

The Chinese say the report is groundless and based on false allegations. After the study was released in July of 2006, China enacted legislation banning sales of human organs and requiring written permission from donors. Yet the witnesses at the Congressional hearing were skeptical that the practice has stopped, and called for continued pressure on the Chinese government to end the practice of trafficking in human organs.



http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-10-03-voa51.cfm

[golden arhat]

dj is an excellent poster i seriously doubt he would lie to us

[David Jamieson]

Juna-

you cheery picked that interview with Kilgour.

for anyone interested in reading in and seeing how flimsy mr kilgours "evidence" is and just how not informed he is, give it a read here:

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1715849.htm

you can also make note of how kilgour didn't actually go anywhere or talk to anyone. my personal opinion is that his report is shoddy and not really a believable artifact.

having said that, Juna, no one is saying the PRC government is not party to questionable practices especially by western standards. I personally believe they do things that would be deemed criminal and reprhensible here in teh west, but then again, what do I know? I'm not there and everything I see or hear about China is fed to me through western media, which is about as trustworthy as a paedophile in a daycare at this point in time, so it has to be taken in with a lot of thought and consideration.

Mr. Kilgour's report is still highly debatable in regards to accuracy and truth. he hasn't actually spoken to any officials, doesn't speak any chinese at all, relies on interpreters who, well what do you know are from teh fd/fg organization and as well are the ones who are placing the calls to the people in china to make confirmations on their allegations.

One of the interesting points in the article is regarding the conversations by phone. that being, why would all these high up government officials and surgeons be spilling what is tantamount to state secrets if indeed the prc is harvesting organs from non donators?

In short, it's shady and wouldn't appear to be able to stand up in a court of law. as well, speaking of law, you still haven't answered my question about the trumped up suit on the chinese official in toronto and how that is working out, you still fail to answer questions asked here in this thread about the organization you are fronting for and you still have basically nothing to say about any of the criticisms that have been given to you here and have yet to successfully rebut any of them.

so? any more copy and paste jobs for us or are you gonna make a point here?

[Juna]

dj is an excellent poster i seriously doubt he would lie to us


He has been cheated by ccp's lies, so he is now seriously cheating you by repeating ccp's lies.
But the problem is he might think he is right, that is the terrible effect of ccp's brainwashing!

[Juna]

Juna-

you still haven't answered my question about the trumped up suit on the chinese official in toronto and how that is working out, ?

If you really are interested in the lawsuit, you can surf yourself on the Internet,

as I know the Chinese official did not pay the money he was required by the court and fled back to China, and ended his diplomatic career shamefully.

[bodhitree]

I woke up this morning and just thought....



I love the Chinese government!

[bodhitree]

In the upcoming midterm elections I will vote for who most supports CCP policies! I wish the CCP had some candidates.

[golden arhat]

your going to vote republican ? :p lol

[David Jamieson]

juna-

good cannot exist without evil.
standard cartesian dualism. yin/yang, get with the program etc etc

[bodhitree]

Evil shall be punished by heavan as falun gong will be punished by ?

a. Big Pun
b. Chinese Government
c. SS officers
d. School principal




Thats right, the correct answer is 'b'

[David Jamieson]

Evil will be punished.
as a person, supporting evil will be punished by heaven.


and what is heaven but a concept?

you would rather turn this to people who aren't buying what you're selling as evil?
that goes over like lead balloons, just so you know. like lying, fabricating stories and the rest.

your organization has a leader who thinks he is christ. He has also taken a lot of money and set himself up living quite well in a manhattan pad and has left those who suffer for him behind.
This is not evil?

Now, are you gonna answer the questions in this thread in your own words or someone elses? You probably need to be deprogrammed.

[KC Elbows]

and what is heaven but a concept?

you would rather turn this to people who aren't buying what you're selling as evil?
that goes over like lead balloons, just so you know. like lying, fabricating stories and the rest.

your organization has a leader who thinks he is christ. He has also taken a lot of money and set himself up living quite well in a manhattan pad and has left those who suffer for him behind.
This is not evil?

Now, are you gonna answer the questions in this thread in your own words or someone elses? You probably need to be deprogrammed.

David has gone to the gulag of reason and harvested the kidney's of truth.

[Juna]

He has also taken a lot of money

Repeating lies is not good.

[golden arhat]

no one is inherently evil
only flawed
just like the ccp

[David Jamieson]

The whole world knows Falun Gong is good.

evil ccp will be weeded out by the universe soon!

the whole world doesn't regard falun gong as "good" Juna. You have several posters right here who think it is nothing more than just another cult, headed by a racist fool who thinks he is jesus.

and to say li hasn't gathered up money from his falun gong scam is pretty bold, or just stupid.

you really have been terribly affected by these people. I do feel sorry for you in some ways because you probably want to do something good, but you wind up a servant to a greater nonsense.

It's too bad for you. But now, I feel like we are not even ahving debate, you are slipping into "yes it is" mode and I am likely just antagonizing you because your ego is bruised over being called a fool so often for your choice of belief.

But in the end, don't say I didn't warn you.

[Juna]

the whole world doesn't regard falun gong as "good" Juna.

No, the whole world says Falun Gong is good.


Since its public introduction in May 1992, Falun Dafa has attracted over 100 million practitioners worldwide in just fourteen years. Falun Dafa cultivation emphasizes that one should conduct oneself according to the principle of "Truth-Compassion-Tolerance". Regardless of gender and age, regardless of nationality and race, every practitioner who persistently cultivates his/her heart and practices the exercises has benefited tremendously. Constant diligent cultivation has brought significant changes to many practitioners in both physical conditions and moral values. At the same time, Falun Dafa is gaining worldwide understanding and appreciation, especially in Asia, Australia, Europe, and North America.

Listed below are some awards issued by some local governments and organizations in China, Canada, US and other countries in recognition of the extraordinary contribution made by Master Li Hong Zhi and Falun Dafa to people's mental and physical health. Just as Master Li Hong Zhi said in Chicago in June 1999, "a practitioner takes worldly fame lightly. The award has no special meaning to myself; but to Falun Dafa, the meaning of the award is profound. It represents the understanding and recognition of Falun Dafa by human beings and society." He hopes that more kindhearted people will join the path of cultivating Falun Gong.

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/recognition.html

[David Jamieson]

Juna, Im part of the whole world, and I say it's not good. I know it's not good.
It's anoter form of control on minds that are inherently afraid. It is at it's core a deeply manipulative system of stripping people of their right to being an individual and their right to think for themselve, even made to think fo themselves.

If one doesn't think for themself, then they do not act for themself and they serve someone else and someone elses wants and agenda. When this is applied in concert of individual mind, it is completely different than what cults like falun gong do with people which is diminish their ability to be of their own mind.

why ios this dangerous? because it allows people to not take responsibility for themselves and what they do. If they ever do snap out of it, they will still be stuck in a blame cycle. They used to blame whatever, in your case the prc, for all their problems and then they will blame fg, and then they will trapse through life never taking responsibility for their own mind and what it leads them in.

the whole world indeed does not think falun gong is good. I think it is an evil corruption of something that is good. But in and of itself, it dimishes humanity and thought and produces drones who chant out the same mulch over and over again never knowing why and not caring why.

sad. it is too bad you are still stuck in that mode. who knows how long you will be on that wheel of hell you've decided to put yourself into.

[David Jamieson]

oh man.

you're not backbreaker are you?

dude, seriously... :rolleyes:

[golden arhat]

juna u might just be the most boring person alive
stop quoting stuff and explain it yourself
give us yopour take on it not just a few words and then a quote typed out from a magazine

[David Jamieson]

prophecies?

name one that's come true out of true prophecy as opposed to understanding the ramifications of one thing or another.

IE: if someone invents a gun, it is not prophecy to say that someone in the future will be shot to death. that's understanding implications and ramifications.

If you actually read the real quatrains of Michel Nostradamus, you will find them to be saying a whole lot of nothing, definitely nothing specific and subject to a rash of poor and overzealous interpretations usually to validate one dime store psychic or another. mostly it is, if not all cyptic jibberish nonsense.

Juna, I prophecy you will not have great success in pushing falun bobo at kungfu magazine in the year 2010. :p

[bodhitree]

Get Juna out of here, teach him a lesson.

[golden arhat]

a jehovahs witness juna ?
u sound like one

[bodhitree]

Juna, if you turn to Jesus now you can be saved!

[SPJ]

Those who have the karmic relationship to know more:


http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/index.php?news=1764

Interesting. However, I may dispute just about every sentence that is interpreted.

for example, De and Yi are not necessarily countries, De is character/virtue. Yi is intent/meaning etc.

--

whatever your preoccupation is on your mind and that is all you see.

as if you are wearing eyeglasses of a certain color, what you see are all in that color.

--

[Royal Dragon]

I think he's trying to say the Chinese Nostrdamus predicted Korea extincting China in nuclear war....all except Faulin Gong followers...because thier chi is stronger than radiation.

[David Jamieson]

Juna

making statements that include "fact" and "revelations" in the same string is indicative of a weak grasp on reality. I would self examine a little if I were you.

Just some advice from the other camp.
You can say falun is good all you like, you can even practice it til the dharma wheel rolls out your belly and crushes the evil in the world that you percieve.

It's not gonna change things in the here and now though.
You are an agent for a dangerous and mind twisting cult.

No one here says the PRC is great, as far as I'm concerned the very concept of how the Chinese Government runs that country had fundamental flaws that are glaring and huge and tyrannical.

People do have to take responsibility for their actions and people need to be held accountable for those actiosn they are taken ownership of.

do not defray to another source when it is your mind that is making it's own voice.
Own your truths and own your lies. You are the only advocate here of the FG/FD.

[David Jamieson]

Juna-

I'm not libeling anything, I'm stating my view and opinion of what I think FG/FD is based on how it portrays itself and how it's founder and leader lays out it's tenets.

in my view, it is a cult of brainwashing that has led to the deaths of people who were misguided in choosing to take up practice of it. denying themselves essential medical needs because they were told that it wasn't needed by their "teachers" in the organization and ultimately dying because of that.

In my outlook, that makes it a dangerous cult that twists peoples minds away from reality.

[Juna]

Juna-
in my view, it is a cult of brainwashing that has led to the deaths of people who were misguided in choosing to take up practice of it. denying themselves essential medical needs because they were told that it wasn't needed by their "teachers" in the organization and ultimately dying because of that.


That is not your view, that is the ccp's evil propaganda.

Falun Gong does not deny anyone's medical needs, if one hopes to get medical treatment, he is free to do so, no one stops him.

As I said you have been brainwashed by ccp's propaganda, then you come here to repeat ccp's lie.

[David Jamieson]

That is not your view, that is the ccp's evil propaganda.

Falun Gong does not deny anyone's medical needs, if one hopes to get medical treatment, he is free to do so, no one stops him.

As I said you have been brainwashed by ccp's propaganda, then you come here to repeat ccp's lie.

no juna, it is my viewpoint.

I don't follow ccp propaganda...or yours.
I simply call it as I see it.

[Juna]

I don't follow ccp propaganda...or yours.
I simply call it as I see it.

No, you never have seen it.

You have seen the report from ccp or from the media quoted ccp's propaganda.

And you believed what ccp hopes you believe, but you think that is your view, do you understand brainwashing, that is a good example.

[David Jamieson]

no juna, my view is drawn from:

a) reading Li Hongzhi's articles, interviews and materials at the site you keep linking to.

b) speaking with members of FG/FD who everyday are out with their posters, yellow jackets and boomboxes.

c) speaking with people like you who support it without questioning it.

I don't speak Chinese or read Chinese papers and we don't get much here in Canada in the way of "news from China".

just to clear that up for you.

My views and opinions on FG/FD are my own. At first glance, i actually took them seriously. but once I started to learn more about them, from them, and you, it became much clearer that FG/FD is nothing more than a misguided cult that is led by a ...well a lunatic who is also a racist and supremacist and is delusional and publishes highly questionable materials along with the rest of the group.

the FG/FD recently shifted gears to tag along with the democracy movement in China, but don't actually participate in it in any real way other than to stand up and spew nonsense when given a soapbox to do so.

seriously. I even used to feel sorry for them afetr finding out what a load of malarky it was, but now, i'll just sit up and point out the inadquacy and falseness of it whenever they (you) make attempts at legitimizing it.

The group has stolen from what are otherwise cultural treasures of China and corrupted them towards their own gain and attempts at acquiring prestige and support for their organization.

it is very sad. But i'll keep coming back and I'll keep reiterating it if it means one more person doesn't get caught up in that train wreck of a half baked thought process that is called Falun Gong.

[golden arhat]

dj could u answer a few more questions for me
how is he a rascist
and howdo u know li hong zhi is all these things
any good links to that sort of thing
i only want to know what u know on the subject so i can form my own opinion i dont know very much lol

[David Jamieson]

golden arhat -

well, seeing as we are in this medium, all i can provide you wit is links i suppose.
Take them as you will.

here goes:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f02.html

http://www.cultnews.com/?p=1707

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong

http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun249.html

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2006/04/red_flags_over.html

http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/02/107037_comment.php

http://www.cesnur.org/2001/falun_march07.htm

http://www.mysticphilosophy.com/archive/2006_04_01_archive.html


anyway, do a google on them using either "falun gong" "falun dafa" or "Li Hongzhi" and you'll get reems of info that will perhaps educate you a little about the matter.

I've spoken to enough people and read enough to conclude that Falun Gong is not so "good" as Juna would have us believe. The above is only a small sampling of what you will find.

Make note of the disclaimer at the top of the wiki page. :)

[jethro]

Watch, now Juna will act like he never saw any of this and bring the thread back in a few days.

[golden arhat]

they truly are evil
either that or the "aliens" have got to you and i
lol
the xia also pm'd me with some links thanx u 2

[The Xia]

I wonder how Juna will react to those links. Any guesses?

[The Xia]

http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html

[David Jamieson]

I didn't post that article, because I think it was done earlier xia.

i find it interesting that Li cannot grasp the idea of exponentialism and instead opts to attribute human progress with alien interference. :rolleyes:

truly a man of the times.... that time being 300 a.d but there you have it. lol

[golden arhat]

"ITS ALL LIES AND UR THE ONES WHO ARE BRAINWASHED "
lol

[jethro]

I wonder when the founder of Falun Gong started smoking crack. I have never tried that stuff but I will have to see what it is all about now after readign what the that guy has to say. He must have some good ****!

[golden arhat]

that was a statement as to how juna will react

[David Jamieson]

In all fairness, Juna is entitled to his opinions.

But I think he's short on facts and glosses over the parts that he and his oprganization would otherwise find embarassing and contradictory to whatever it is they think they are doing or contributing.

Me? I'm just a guy pointing it out.

[jethro]

I am still trying to find some articles written by Li about the benefits of crack. I know there has to be some.

[golden arhat]

werent a whole lot of masters opium addicts ? :p

[Juna]

I don't speak Chinese or read Chinese papers and we don't get much here in Canada in the way of "news from China".


You can be brainwashed by ccp, even if you do not speak Chinese, as I mentioned ccp has influenced many media all over the world, many media quoted ccp's propaganda knowingly or unknowingly.

Your view comes from those faule message, not from me, or other Falun Gong practitioners, your problem is you donot believe what we say, you choose to believe the negative propaganda.

[Juna]

golden arhat -

well, seeing as we are in this medium, all i can provide you wit is links i suppose.
Take them as you will.




All those are not Falun Gong's websites, they have misunderstood Falun Gong's teaching, and sometimes using their own imagination, and have been influenced by ccp's propaganda, if sby get conclusion from those webs, he has been misled.

[bodhitree]

CCP is not the one doing the brainwashing, my crazy cult leader listens to aliens boy.

[David Jamieson]

juna-

despite what you would like to think, alas your presumption about me is incorrect.

Yes, those links to articles aren't written from your bias and I do believe there was due diligence in the forming of at least the majority of them because they are dealing with direct sourcing for the info.

So, what do you say to the interview with Li himself? Do you have any comments about the views on people with variated sexual orientation or mixed races?

What are your views on those people? Do they match your groups teachings?
Are mixed race people evil? Are gay people evil? Because that's the kind of hate message your "good" group is spreading around out there.

and what about the installation of the wheel of dharma within someones belly? What's your views on that?

Can you answer to any of this or can you only say:

a) the ccp has brainwashed you

and

b) Falun Gong is Good

Like I said, I've formed my opinion and views of your group from reading the lit of the group itself, talking to it's members etc. I don't support your idea that they are good and I certainly don't give any cred to Li's foundational philosophies of intolerance and hate towards those in our society that are not mainstream.

anyway... I await your standard canned response. lol

[scholar]

Let me propose one more evasive response that I see occasionally from FLG cultists:

c) You misunderstood (or have taken out of context) the crazy crap Li Hongzhi says...

[scholar]

This is a quote from one of Li Hongzhi's Australian lectures:

"Though we are not a religion, I am teaching things at the higher levels of Qigong, it is therefore not the ordinary Qigong. To put it plainly, Qigong is not something created by ordinary people. What is this Qigong then? Qigong is cultivation practice, but it is something at the lowest level of cultivation practice, including Taichi boxing. Everyone knows that Taichi boxing is very good, and it has been widely spread throughout China since the 1950s. It was made public by Zhang Sanfeng of the Ming Dynasty. However, only the techniques and movements have been passed on while the Fa of mind cultivation was not made public. In other words, he did not leave to man the Fa that could guide cultivation practice and would show people how to make progress at each level. Therefore, Taichi boxing can only be limited to such a realm of healing illnesses and keeping good health and it is unable to practice cultivation towards higher levels. Although it is something very good, its Fa of mind cultivation was not passed on. At that time, the Fa of mind cultivation did exist, but it was not preserved, and it was not left for later generations. Yet, this Fa that we are teaching today is systematically doing such a thing."

The above quote strikes me as noteworthy on two levels.

The first being the thought of not just of my teachers but of any of the competent Taiji pracitioners throughout history that Li promotes himself past with that statement and how easily they could have handed Li his own ass if he were standing in front of them is immensely entertaining, at least to me.

The second is Li's claim that there is no surviving intellectual or spiritual component to Taijiquan training or theory to compare with his dizzying intellect. Even on this discussion board (which may not be the best example) The Taijiquan people write page after page minutely dissecting and speculating on the tiniest of insignificant issues. :rolleyes: When we consider serious scholars like Wu Yuxiang, Li Yiyu, Wu Jianquan, Sun Lutang, Chen Xin or Wu Gongzao, just to name a few, and the painstaking, intellectually rigorous examinations of Taijiquan theory that they've passed on to us, Li Hongzhi's theories about his religion that isn't a religion and qigong that isn't qigong, and how those theories are dependent upon him alone as the universal saviour of mankind, all without a shred of proof for any of it seem like the ravings of either an intellectually lazy con man or a demented lunatic, in comparison.

[Juna]

the majority of them because they are dealing with direct sourcing for the info.


That is ccp's so-called report, you call it direct source.

[Juna]

What are your views on those people? Do they match your groups teachings?
Are mixed race people evil?

No, look at my response above.

[Juna]

Because that's the kind of hate message your "good" group is spreading around out there.

No, those who want to defame Falun Gong are trying to spread those wrong interpretation.

[Juna]

intolerance and hate towards those in our society that are not mainstream.



No, even the guys can come to learn Falun Gong. No hatred from Falun Gong to anybody, only the Benevolence.

[scholar]

The "turning of the law wheel" is simply paying attention to the mechanics of breathing. Any yoga, qigong or vipassana does the same.

And Li Hongzhi really is a racist, with many references to his ethnically pure paradise in his lectures.

[Juna]

The second is Li's claim that there is no surviving intellectual or spiritual component to Taijiquan training or theory to compare with his dizzying intellect. Even on this discussion board (which may not be the best example) The Taijiquan people write page after page minutely dissecting and speculating on the tiniest of insignificant issues.

That is not Zhang Sanfeng's teaching, that is only those Taiji masters' view of how to keep heathy, how to run Qi, how to fight, but not at all the teaching of how to achieve higher level of cultivation. Different.

[Juna]

The "turning of the law wheel" is simply paying attention to the mechanics of breathing. Any yoga, qigong or vipassana does the same.



We donot pay attention at breathing at all.

[David Jamieson]

juna-

In your "teachers own words.


If you are an interracial child, it is, of course, neither your fault nor your parents' fault. Anyway, it is just such a chaotic situation brought about by mankind, in which such a phenomenon has appeared. The yellow people, the white people, and the black people have the corresponding races in heaven. Then, if one is not from his race or does not belong to his people, he will not take care of him….. All interracial children were born in the Dharma-ending period. People are not to be blamed for it, because everyone is drifting in the tide, and nobody knows the truth. This is the way they have come through. If you want to practice cultivation, I can help. As for which paradise you will go to, we will need to look at your situation. I will assimilate more of whichever portion that is better preserved. Anyway, you should concentrate on your cultivation and should not concern yourself with these things.



more...


The issue of the interracial children I have just mentioned has told mankind a heavenly secret, but it is not that we would do anything. I said that I have done something even greater in the sense that I can also save a person of mixed blood, but I can only save him in this period of time. Though oriental people and Westerners all live on earth, man does not know that there is something separating the East and the West. It is well known that oriental people believe in the so-called "nine". They like the sound of it, which implies everlasting. "Eight" is pronounced as "fa", implying making a fortune. These kinds of things can indeed have a little bit of effect in the East, such as geomantic omen telling or landscape analysis, etc. But when applied in the West, they appear to be ineffective and do not work. They do not work with the white people. Then again, the so-called astrology or some phenomena believed by the white people do not work with the oriental people either. Some people think that they work. That is because you think they work. In fact, they don’t. Why is it then? It is because the white people's biosphere has its special physical matter formed in its own dimension while the oriental people's biosphere has the special matter made up with their life. Such things run through the makeup of one's life. Thus, the two sides are not the same. After races are mixed up, you will find one’s child born to be an infant of mixed blood. However, there is a partition in the middle of this child's life. If it is separated, he will be physically and intellectually incomplete or a person with an incomplete body. Modern science also knows that it is getting worse one generation after another. It would be like this. Of course, if such a person wants to practice cultivation, I can help, and I can take care of it. It cannot be done to a non-practitioner.



ok?

as for the money question regarding Li


In an interview in Sydney on May 2, 1999, Li revealed his poor financial status in the following statement: “In mainland China I published so many books, but added together, they haven't exceeded twenty thousand Renminbi (equivalent to US $ 2,469). This is what the publishing company gave me. When publishing books in other countries of the world, you know there is a rule, which pays 5 or 6% royalties to the author, so each time I can only get a little bit, a few hundred, or a few thousand dollars.”

According to a Wall Street Journal report American Dream Finds Chinese Spiritual Leader, published November 1, 1999 "in June 1998 his [Li's] wife bought a residence in a quiet Queens neighborhood for $293,500...Another house (which cost 580.000) was also purchased in the name of Mr. Li's wife Li Rui, in May, (1999)." Until Mr. Li began his spiritual teaching in 1992, he and his wife each earned less than $500 a year at a state-owned grain company in northeastern China's Jilin province.

so...care to speak to these criticisms before we talk about how the organization views "ordinary humans" and how they view ****sexuality.

By the way, my view is that people are people regardless of sexual preference or belief. But I also believe that Li's teachings are severly skewed and I would add this quote from Buddhist scholars


A Buddhist would instantly recognize Li Hongzhi as an angry and fearful man, a man whose followers are his chattels. He speaks of his practitioners, is disciples. They work for him their Master. If he can’t save them, no one else can. This ever-widening ownership encircles the globe, and so too does Li’s fear and pain. All around him, he begins to detect real or imagined plots and betrayals. And when he wakes tomorrow in his secret hideaway, his rest will have been disturbed by troubled dreams.

comments?

[golden arhat]

with none other than li hongzhi
did u even read any of the links
it seems to me that u only want to hear what u like weither or not its a lie

[Juna]

juna-

In your "teachers own words.

ok?

Master Li has the Benevolence to help anyone including mixed race children, where is the hatred?

[golden arhat]

when he states that mixed race children are sick

simple as he is a rascist ****phobe with serious paranoia issues
doesnt sound like a healthy man to me

[David Jamieson]

why does he refer to them as if they are second rate human beings? "chaotic"? Not their fault?

sweet gueveras dude, can you not read? can you not see the words? it's right there in your face....

oh yeah...you've been indoctrinated.

ok Juna, keep going, I got plenty more straight from the horses mouth. Luckily, he is not unabashed in his near insane rants and views.

[Juna]

comments?
About big house, I can exlain to you this, one practitioner in USA thought Master Li's house near an airport, the environment was not good, so he contacted with Master Li's wife, and Gave a big house as his present, then Master Li's wife did not discuss with Master Li and agreed, so the owner of that house became Maser Li's wife, after Master Li knew this, he criticized his wife strictly, and asked her to return the house back, that is about the big house.

[golden arhat]

he broke into the realms of insane A LONG TIME AGO !!!

[Juna]

did u even read any of the links


I know the interview.

[The Xia]

Mixed races is the phenomena of modern world,
Read some history and you'll find that peoples have always interbred. Also, read the theory of evolution. Regardless of how you like to classify yourself, humans came from the same source and interbred.

[David Jamieson]

oh man.

so, juna, you excuse this with some ridiculous hypothesis and support li's racist and intolerant attitudes.

call a spade a spade and....
ah nevermind.

I'll keep posting if you do.

[Juna]

oh man.

so, juna, you excuse this with some ridiculous hypothesis and support li's racist and intolerant attitudes.



No, Falun Dafa has great compassion to all sentient beings, including the members of the evil orgnization--ccp.

Master Li has the great Benevolence to help everyone no mater what race he is.

[David Jamieson]

juna-

fg/fd is exclusionist and the "teacher" makes that very clear.

if you don't buy into his thing and regard him as a supernatural being (which he actually has the audacity to claim) then you are "ordinary".

so, it is not compassionate to all sentient beings, it is in fact intolerant of a great deal of people. In fact, some of the ramblings smack of the same viewpoints as the nazis in regards to non ethnic purity, people who have alternate lifestyles, people who are mentaly handicapped and so on who Li thinks and preaches to his followers are living manifestations of evil and wrong and that they "deserve" it.

In the meantime, he also thinks that people who aren't chinese are sub par as well and remarks that at one time original people were chinese and it was evil corruption that made everyone else?

yikes! You can't make this stuff up!...unless you're li hongzhi.

so...did he give the house back or is he still living in it and does he still own it?

and there is no misinterpretation on the journalists behalf, Mr.Li's words are written verbatim. Nothing to misinterpret. Li said it and Li teaches it to you and the rest of your group.

He writes about it and spreads it as far as he can in order to acquire...what? Power? His little stone on planet earth?

Juna, you've been sold a bill of goods. Right now, you cannot see because you will not see. You cannot see the lies and deceptions and hate and paranoia that you are being fed by this group and the teachings of Li Hongzhi. You cannot see how it is corrupting your mind and leading you away from being able to perceive things without illusions and instead you are letting these deceptions and hate pull you ever deeper into a tangled web of lies.

I am curious how long you have been indoctrinated for and when did it start for you?

[Juna]

then you are "ordinary".

If you donot want to cultivate to higher levels, you are an ordinary person. Any insult meaning here?

[Juna]

In the meantime, he also thinks that people who aren't chinese are sub par as well and remarks that at one time original people were chinese and it was evil corruption that made everyone else?


Where do you get these lies? And why donot you check if Master Li really say sth like that, and just believe those false websites and come here to repeat rotten lies?

[Juna]

so...did he give the house back or is he still living in it and does he still own it?



Mr. Li's wife has returned back that gift.

[Juna]

Right now, you cannot see because you will not see. You cannot see the lies and deceptions and hate and paranoia that you are being fed by this group and the teachings of Li Hongzhi. You cannot see how it is corrupting your mind and leading you away from being able to perceive things without illusions and instead you are letting these deceptions and hate pull you ever deeper into a tangled web of lies.




Everyone has his original self, so donot let those false websites veil your kind nature, I suggest you read Falun Gong's books carefully.

[The Xia]

In ancient times, people did not have the capacity to move far enough to reach another race, and that prevent people from mixing race in great deal.

Of cause, a few really happened from long time ago.
We are all humans and science supports that we stem from the same source. Not to mention, there is plenty of mixing across the globe in both recent and ancient history from wars, migration, etc. There is no such thing as a "pure" race. So in essence, everyone is mixed. There is nothing wrong with mixing either.

[golden arhat]

mixed race people are stronger and cope with ilnesses better than supposed "pure"
people
i cannot wait for the day when you wake up juna

[golden arhat]

the term race doesnt even apply to the way he uses it
humans are a race
i suppose black and white and chinese would be breeds

[golden arhat]

id go to med school and study proper chinese medicine
not your half baked attempt at science

[iquitilen]

I have only had a few moments to look through the the FD website. I figured that my questions would be answered faster by consulting the forum. So here goes...

For FD practitioners:

1.) Do you believe that it's possible to still reap the physical benefits from the FD cultivation exercises and not entirely prescribe to the more spiritual/trancendental? beliefs that may be expounded through organized group practice?

2.) If I were to go to a practitioner of FD in my area what could expect from a session?


All others:

1.) Are the FD cultivation exercises rooted in another type of qi gong style? If so, does this style have credible/believable lineage?

Input is greatly appreciated.

[golden arhat]

no no and no

this is how they start brain washing you
they say oh yeah do it for health then gradually introduce u to the rest
and as for his lineage
li hong zhi claimed his teachers were from "the mountains" does that answer your questions ?

[iquitilen]

Thanks Golden Arhat for your input.

With all do respect however, I would like to ask others to put in their .02 cents. FD practitioners and non-FD practitioners.

Thank you in advance!

[golden arhat]

its fine they will probs have something better to say than me
but if u look back on this forum
u will realise the truth that
li hong zhi is a racist hom ophobe
and juna has been brainwashed
and that subscribing to their practises will eventually lead u down a path u most certainly do not want to travel down

[iquitilen]

I welcome Juna's input as well the input of any other FD/FG practitioners. I also welcome the opinions of non FD/FG practitioners. More importantly, I request the input of those that have tried the FG exercises, but may not necessarily prescribe to the more transcendental teaching of FD.

I very much understand that FD/FG practitioners will have more positive things to say about this matter.

I also expect non-FD/FG folks to make comments that are opposed to FG practice.

I will clarify:

If I should actively seek out FG practitioners to learn the exercises, what can I expect? What is a meeting session like? Describe it for me? Will I be asked about personal beliefs? Will this determine whether or not I am welcome in the group? Do FG practitioners believe I will not benefit if i do but do not subscribe to their beliefs? Are there others who are walking the fence besides me?

I must admit, I am being a little lazy. I am not entirely interested in sifting through all the banter of past posts. This is the reason why I posted these questions here. But, looks like I'll have to get to work. If anyone wants to save me the trouble, by all means...POST! :D

BTW Golden Arhat, your disclaimer is duly noted. However, I do not have suffucient knowledge to make a final determination. Indeed, I am choosing to acquiesce in reference to personal information regarding li hong zi for the sake of further dialogue.

Thank you in advance.

[Juna]

For FD practitioners:

1.) Do you believe that it's possible to still reap the physical benefits from the FD cultivation exercises and not entirely prescribe to the more spiritual/trancendental? beliefs that may be expounded through organized group practice?

2.) If I were to go to a practitioner of FD in my area what could expect from a session?




1) We believe that the nature of the universe is Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance, and we try to assimilate our selves to the nature of the universe. Do you think the belief is not acceptable?

If sby just wants to do the movements and do not try to be a good person, he is really doing some "ordinary" movements.

Why so many Falun Gong practitioners have all of thier illness gone, because they want to cultivate, to be a good person, to assimilate to the nature of the universe, so all the miracles appear.

2) If sby wants to learn the great practice, he will be told he need not pay a cent to learn. He can freely download the books of Falun Gong and the exercise-teaching video , (Does anyone who wants to make money doing sth like this?)

If sby wants to learn, he is free to come, if he does not want to continue, he is free to leave.
No membership, no namelist, no rules, no orders, no fees.

If sby does not like to learn the practice with others, he can learn by himself, practice by himself, he need not join a group if he does not like to.

[The Xia]

golden arhat -

well, seeing as we are in this medium, all i can provide you wit is links i suppose.
Take them as you will.

here goes:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f02.html

http://www.cultnews.com/?p=1707

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong

http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun249.html

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2006/04/red_flags_over.html

http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/02/107037_comment.php

http://www.cesnur.org/2001/falun_march07.htm

http://www.mysticphilosophy.com/archive/2006_04_01_archive.html


anyway, do a google on them using either "falun gong" "falun dafa" or "Li Hongzhi" and you'll get reems of info that will perhaps educate you a little about the matter.

I've spoken to enough people and read enough to conclude that Falun Gong is not so "good" as Juna would have us believe. The above is only a small sampling of what you will find.

Make note of the disclaimer at the top of the wiki page. :)
In addition to the above links that David Jamieson posted, there is also this link I posted a few pages back. It's an interview with Li Hongzhi.
http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html

[Juna]

Will I be asked about personal beliefs? Will this determine whether or not I am welcome in the group? Do FG practitioners believe I will not benefit if i do but do not subscribe to their beliefs? Are there others who are walking the fence besides me?


My previous post has answered the question.

There is no fixed form for a person to learn, but he should understand the teaching of Falun Gong, and after reading the book, he can judge for himself, if he should continue to learn.

[golden arhat]

i have practised the falun dafa excercise
buddha shows a thousand hands
i found ba duan jin excercises to be far superior as a qi gong practise

[scholar]

Another message that Li Hongzhi and his familiars stick to is: "Read the books, do the exercises, read the books, do the exercises" saying that unless you do them you'll never understand them. They are hoping that sheer repetition will hook some gullible people. That, without any logical explanation provided for why or how, just buzz words repeated over and over, just isn't good enough.

My teachers were able to explain to me directly why Taijiquan was something that would help me. It took the confirmation of my actually benefiting from the training after a while, but the initial presentation was well organized and cogent. FLG just sounds like aload of loopy glassy-eyed kool aid cultists drooling over the drug addled ranting of yet another wannabe guru; and the "exercises" are only so much poorly coordinated qigong. The poor slobs can't even take a punch...

A big problem for me with Li and FLG is that they preach there is nowhere for them to go themselves in learning. Just hand over your entire physical, emotional, psychic and spiritual life to LI. Let him inhabit your body! Then they are at the top because Li somehow has everything sorted in a way that even the greatest teachers ever known haven't understood (everything but how to protect his followers from the CCP!!!). That is a dead position, spiritually. Who needs to grow? We have universal saviour Li Hongzhi controlling us 24/7! There is no balance, no grace, no kung fu to be found in such smugness.

[bodhitree]

After Li Hongzhi's uncle touched him (in a bad way) he was never the same again. Is Li Hongzhi related to 'iron' kim?

[Royal Dragon]

Like was said above, why not do Da Duan Jin, get better results, and avoid all the bs, and negative stigma associated with Faulin Gong?

[golden arhat]

here is my interpretation of falun dafa GAHEY!!!

[bodhitree]

Powerlifting=Sprints/hiit=Yoga=distance cardio = qigong= pilates= (all good exercise) > sweat into the oldies > the gazelle> walking around the mall before the stores open > chair-robics > lethargy > Falungong

[scholar]

Umm, Juna, I'm not libelling Li. If I said that he was competing with Michael Jackson, Congressman Foley and a couple of thousand Catholic priests in a marathon pederasty tournament, THAT would be libel. :rolleyes:

Li himself teaches that you have to totally, completely surrender yourself to him. Then, he somehow plants his magical mystical saviour energy into you. He says that unless he puts himself inside of you, you will never be saved from hell. This is something he has said in his books and lectures many times.

As for only FLG allowing you to see the true nature of yourself and the universe, that is a load of rubbish. For just one example, Gautama Buddha's method of the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path is much clearer and more direct explanation of the cause and cure for sufferng (necessary for a better understanding of the nature of ourselves and the universe) than the reams of outer space doubletalk coming from Li and FLG. :D

[golden arhat]

that ppl like u (scholar, dj, the xia and others) always seem to offer up complete
sensible arguments with cited references
an juna ignores them completely ?

[iquitilen]

The reason I'm so interested the FG exercises is b/c there is a study on wikipedia.org (search: Falun Gong). I do believe that the practice of qi gong can improve health and vitality. As for pinpointing what techniques can be more effective than others, I'm currently limited do to the stigma I attach to martial arts styles which may have suffered (severe) alteration in their transmission from teacher to student. I do not have the luxury of being able to select from a variety of styles in my area, btw.

-As for the wiki.org study, would anyone happen to know if these studies are biased in any way?

-I've googled this ba/da dua/n jin. What is the more widely used version of spelling here in the U.S.? I ask b/c I'm not getting any useful search results.

Due to the negativity associated with Falun Gong I have decided not to pursue a group session in my area. I'll try to learn the exercises though, as I would like to add to my repertior if you will. Unless someone can lead me to believe that the studies are fatally flawed or fabricated.

The reason I even consider this is because I have a drive to learn more about qi gong. Until I can formally enroll in my qi gong class (which won't be local btw) I seek knowledge from where ever I can get it. I'll retain what is useful and discard that which is not currently useful. Easy!

OK! Tell me whacha think!:D

[Juna]

[SIZE="7"]here is my interpretation of falun dafa GAHEY!!!

Your wrong interpretation.

[The Xia]

that ppl like u (scholar, dj, the xia and others) always seem to offer up complete
sensible arguments with cited references
an juna ignores them completely ?
I guess presenting sensible arguments with cited references makes you an "evil" person that the "whole universe" is going to "punish". :p :D

[The Xia]

Your wrong interpretation, and that is not good for yourself.
I'm sure he is quaking in his shoes. :D
Hey arhat, do you think that the "whole universe" going to "punish" you soon? :p

[Juna]

Due to the negativity associated with

I'd like to point out, this statement is not correct, the whole world welcomes Falun Dafa(I am sure you have noticed the thousands of awards), except ccp and some people who have been brainwashed..

[golden arhat]

as you know
i am an arhat lol
there fore i have gained enlightenment and karma has no effect on my next life as i will not have a next life due to my enlightenment lol:p
honestley tho
i believe that i am a good person and i am only trying to help u realise that u have emprisoned yourself with quasi religious dogma
only u can free yourself
this is positive action
i am a good person
no one will punish u for what i say on an internet forum

you trying to make me feel guilty and afraid is negative and typical of a group such as yours


here is a tip juna try listening to both arguments properly

and u will free yourself or at least come to see what u really believe not just what u have convinced yourself u believe

ive hope i've gotten through
but knowing u u will ignore whatever i have said

[golden arhat]

okay first things first
do not under any circumstance assume anything about my knowledge on any subject because there is no way of knowing of what i know simply because we have never met and u do not know me
second donot assum i know nothing of my own religion

3rd the "i am an arhat thing" was a sarcastic play on my screen name
maybe u dont have enough insight to realise that like everyone else has

who are you to go around claiming the world will punish me
u know this do u

and finally all the gods and demons that may or may not exist are more than likely wise enough to realise my reasons for saying what i say and forgive me
or agree with me
i mean u would expect a god to know that type of thing

so maybe u should try reading things more carefully and be more mindful of what u say

[golden arhat]

and of course u have taken your quotes out of context
and picked at the relative (and relative to the rest of my posts not yours as my arguments are far superior to ur vitirol) weak points of my post as u cant answer to anything truthful as u dont like what u hear so u imply ignore it

thats pathetic ....truly

[golden arhat]

who are you to judge ? u like to try and seem all righteous to big yourself up
thats pathetic truly
and once again u have a voided the main subject completely

and besides which im sure a real arhat would see the funny side of it

u are truly deluded

[David Jamieson]

juna-

everyone has the capacity to do good or evil.
If someone doesn't take action taht would be good, is it then evil?
If someone believes what they are doing is good, but the result is evil, have they in fact done evil?

What I'm saying is that it is not all black and white cut and dry. Everyone has done good and everyone does evil.

Do you drive a car? eat the flesh of an animal? squash an insect? Berate another? Feel prideful? Admonish another where you are angered?...You see what I mean? the list can go on an on and on for all the good vs evil things that we do in a day.
Some people canot even grasp that what they are doing at a given moment has ramifications that are ultimately negative.

Even yourself denying what is in front of you is essentially ignorant and ergo a manifestation of evil.

We cannot be one or the other, we can only dampen and diffuse that which disturbs us on a level of our own moral and ethical understanding.

you yourself may indeed be a fun****etally good person, but that says nothing about the teachings you are trying to promote. I don't regard Falun Gong as good. I regard it as part and parcel to the evil you are going on about. It controls others who willinglyt fail to take responsibility for their own lives and would rather give them up in the service to an ego of another more charasmatic person who has made them a promise that he surely cannot keep. This is cyclical evil and it picks at teh flesh of humanity the same way a war would, or starvation. It is equal in it's evil result (in your terms) because it retards the potential for someone to do good and instead puts them on a path of inaction, or stillness where they do neither good, nor evil, but the result is evil because the potential for good is removed.

It is very subtle, and quite passive in it's representation, but it is an impediment in the growth and exercise of the free will we each have.

and what is that?

[golden arhat]

why is being an arhat serious
u can only be truly happy once u reach enlightenment
happiness doesnt seem so serious to me

i dont want to argue with u any longer u r obviously a fool
and as for rewarding good and punishing evil

li hongzhi will obviously go straight to hell

unless rascism and ****phobia are good

[Royal Dragon]

There is no such things as a serious Arhat. Arhats are happy go lucky, silly entities.

As for Ba Duan Jin, it is the Eight Pieces of Silk Brocade Qigong in english. Often times you see it as the Eight pieces of Brocade for short.

There is a TONE of Tapes, VCDs, and varous books and texts on it. You can get the external coreography of it easily, and later find a teacher to tune you in on the internals of it.

This site has several versions in the store.

http://www.martialartsmart.net/pr-tp002.html

http://www.martialartsmart.net/prjt004.html

http://www.martialartsmart.net/bcn-jf001.html

http://www.martialartsmart.net/pr-ym22x.html

http://www.martialartsmart.net/8512.html

[Juna]

unless rascism and ****phobia are good

Racism and phobia are not good.

[Juna]

You are libeling.

You only get a little information from who knows where, and you form some rigid concept, and you still think you are clever.

That is your problem.

No one controls Falun Gong practitioners, we try to live according to the nature of the universe.

[golden arhat]

Yes, if they libel a righteous practice and the nature of the universe--to be true, good and endure, that is their sins, but maybe they have been cheated, that is their problem .

then u r doing evil juna

[golden arhat]

Achieving the Arhat status, the cultivator has gone beyond the level that has emotions, if he has emotions he cannot achieve the status of Arhat, so he cannot feel happy.

In Arhat's level, Arhat has his own feeling, but not ordinary people's happiness.

To achieve Arhat is a great, magnific thing, a being has gone beyond the realm of living and dying, this cannot be made fun of.

i didnt mock it andi didnt make fun of it
i merely used a few sentences as a satiric play on my screen name
i dont know why u cant see that
or why i should have to explain myself to you when u refuse to listen and merely wait for your chance to talk

[Royal Dragon]

Is it libeling to call a spade a spade?

[golden arhat]

hell No!!!

[The Xia]

You are not presenting "sensible" arguments.


Spreading libel is not innocent.
So you are saying that “TIME Asia” is libelous?
They interviewed Li Hongzhi.
http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html
What do you say to that?
Wait, let me guess. Perhaps you'll say that "TIME Asia" twisted Li's words out of context because they are "evil" or "brainwashed" by "ccp propaganda". :rolleyes:

[Juna]

So you are saying that “TIME Asia” is libelous?
They interviewed Li Hongzhi.
http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html
What do you say to that?
Wait, let me guess. Perhaps you'll say that "TIME Asia" twisted Li's words out of context because they are "evil" or "brainwashed" by "ccp propaganda". :rolleyes:

Mr. Li did not speak English to the reporter.

Do you know the importance of a interpreter?

If the reporter cannot understand Mr. Li's words, knowingly or unknowingly misinterprets Mr. Li's words, what to do?

So, if sby wants to know what is Falun Gong's teaching, read Falun Gongs book.

[The Xia]

So, if sby wants to know what is Falun Gong's teaching, go to www.falundafa.org
Oh yeah, that's an objective information source... :rolleyes:

[golden arhat]

juna

have u ever heard of not believing everything u hear and read ?
we read your stuff
why dont u read ours ?
are u afraid we may be right
and falun gong is all u have
maybe falun gong is his only social life
and i know it must be hard to accept that such a large part of you life is false/evil

like the white lotus clan in once apon a time in china 2 (wong fei hung 2)

[golden arhat]

and if the interperator mistranslated it do u not think li hong zhi would have something to say about it ( like he does on every subject) or even take legal action with the vast fortune he has amassed

[Juna]

juna

have u ever heard of not believing everything u hear and read ?
we read your stuff
why dont u read ours ?

I know much more lies and slanders created from ccp's propaganda.

[Juna]

Oh yeah, that's an objective information source... :rolleyes:

If you want to know to practice Tai ji, and what Taiji Masters teachings are, then you say, go to an objective source.

Something wrong?

[Juna]

and if the interperator mistranslated it do u not think li hong zhi would have something to say about it ( like he does on every subject)

If one wants to know what is Falun Gong, read Falun Gongs book, and there are so many Falun gong practitioners all around the world.

[Juna]

with the vast fortune he has amassed

Can you tell me how could Mr. Li amass fortunes?

Collecting fee? Falun Gong practitioners need not to pay a cent to learn the practice.

Selling books? You can freely download all the books, is this a method to collect money?


You can regard Mr. Li as a millionare, because there are 100 milllion Falun gong practitioners, the practitioners have got great benefit physically and mentally by practicing Falun Gong, so if Mr. Li says, each practitioner gives him one dollar, and of couse, every practitioner is happy to give him one dollar, then Mr. Li has 100 million dollars, but Mr. Li never asks the one dollar. If Mr. Li wants to make money, that is the easiest way, why he does not use it, and make a lot of trouble to amass money using a method you make up?

[Juna]

juna

have u ever heard of not believing everything u hear and read ?

That is you who believe the faulse messeges.

For me, as I wrote before, I searched the truth for many years, read lots of books regarding cultivation, tried quite some methods to cultivate.

Many Falun Gong practitioners have the same experience, we are clearheaded,we know what we are doing, what we are losing, what awaits us.
We will have the excerlant future because we try to be a good person and assimilate to the nature of the universe--to be true, good and endure

[golden arhat]

How do you know that, Mr. Li cannot take care of every event in the ordinary world, if one wants to know what is Falun Gong, there are so many Falun gong practitioners all around the world, if one wants to know what Falun Gong's teaching is, go to www.falundafa.org , there he can download freely Mr. li's book.


If sby insists on not reading Falun Dafa's original books, and just believes some faulse websites, some lies, some libelers, and attacks Falun Dafa without knowing the true teachings, that is his own choice, he has chosen to destroy his own fate, he never know how serious the crime is!

sure maybe he cant say something about everything
but an interview with time magazine thats big and is to do with how falun gong is being represented
thats not some little thing
its important
not just another event
so why does he say nothing about the interview ?

[golden arhat]

andas for his fortune i dont know how he amassed it bt i know he has it
look at where he lives

[Juna]

but an interview with time magazine thats big and is to do with how falun gong is being represented
thats not some little thing
its important
not just another event
so why does he say nothing about the interview ?

That is your understanding, the only way to understand Falun Gong is reading Falun Gong's books.

what I post is only my little understanding, so the only way for a person to find out the reasons why Falun Gong is so purpular is go to read Falun Gong's books.

[golden arhat]

ha so him representing falun gong badly to the world is not important ?

and as for the books u could read them i suppose
but then that would be like saying the only way to understand hitler would be to read mein kampf
both are full of vitirol designed to win over the reader not to explain

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Juna: I have read the books, and you know my conclusions.. now, i challenge you to read "Conversations With God", by Neale Donald Walsh.. Book 1 for background and the latest, "New Revelations".. Neither FD nor CWG is the "true" path.. but, i would be interested to see which resonates as the most beneficial for an ailing civilization..

The "true path" is in your own heart.. words of others explain their "true paths".. Don't walk in the footsteps of others, seek what they sought.. on your own path...

Be well..

[Juna]

but then that would be like saying the only way to understand hitler would be to read mein kampf
both are full of vitirol designed to win over the reader not to explain

Hitler has no teaching.

[golden arhat]

u didnt make any sense with what u said
u have terrible grammar

[golden arhat]

yes u can compare them
they are both hom ophopes
they are both rascists
they both have delusions of grandeur

he had a teaching and that was that jews and bolshevism were the root of societys problems and that other races were inferior to the aryan race


so there u go
they have a lot in common

[Juna]

Greetings..

Juna: I have read the books, and you know my conclusions.. now, i challenge you to read "Conversations With God", by Neale Donald Walsh.. Book 1 for background and the latest, "New Revelations".. Neither FD nor CWG is the "true" path.. but, i would be interested to see which resonates as the most beneficial for an ailing civilization..

The "true path" is in your own heart.. words of others explain their "true paths".. Don't walk in the footsteps of others, seek what they sought.. on your own path...

Be well..

Greetings,

Interesting post, but I will not read what you suggested, I have gone beyond the period of searching the true pathway.

By studying Falun Dafa, I understand many mysteries of the universe.

[Juna]

Every one can practice Falun Dafa, no matter what race hi is in, even the mixed race perple can practice, actually quite some Falun Gong practitioners have mixed race families.

Where is the racism?

[SilverNeedle]

well, I have read some parts of this topic and it turned out the way I expected: it's crap :D

[golden arhat]

we are not saying falun gong is rascist

but li hongzhi certainly is

just listen to what he says

[GLW]

"Interesting post, but I will not read what you suggested, I have gone beyond the period of searching the true pathway. "

Translation :

It is useless to speak or attempt reason with one such as this. He is convinced that he is right, has bought everything hook, line, and sinker from Li Hongzhi and his mind is closed.

Remember, a mind and a parachute.....both only work when they are open.

So... Why can't this thread be locked and thrown away. There is no discourse here.

[golden arhat]

too true juna has gone beyond saving

[Juna]

we are not saying falun gong is rascist

but li hongzhi certainly is




Mr. Li has great Benevolence to help anyone including mixed race people.

[unkokusai]

Is this freak show still going on? The circus has packed up and moved on, you'd better hurry or they'll forget you.

[GLW]

If race were NOT an issue and these folks like Juna did NOT have a problem with race, why would he add the item about 'even mixed race people'

Seems to me that truly enlightened folk would help regardless of anything like that....

What a marooon.

[Juna]

why would he add the item about 'even mixed race people'



Because some people libel that Falun Gong discriminate mixed race.

[GLW]

If you AND your group headed by Li Hongzhi did NOT have a racial prejudice problem, your statement would have ended at :

"Mr. Li has great Benevolence to help anyone"

instead of adding the mixed race item.

The very fact that you felt compelled to add it in shows that it is an issue for you completely separate from what you may claim about people saying bad things about your group.

Your defense of such things reveals a small heart and mind.

Your earlier posts reveal a CLOSED heart and mind.

Not a very good example of things, are you.

[The Xia]

If you want to know to practice Tai ji, and what Taiji Masters teachings are, then you say, go to an objective source.

Something wrong?
Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art, not a "new religious movement". Therefore, the comparison doesn’t work.

[golden arhat]

If you AND your group headed by Li Hongzhi did NOT have a racial prejudice problem, your statement would have ended at :

"Mr. Li has great Benevolence to help anyone"

instead of adding the mixed race item.

The very fact that you felt compelled to add it in shows that it is an issue for you completely separate from what you may claim about people saying bad things about your group.

Your defense of such things reveals a small heart and mind.

Your earlier posts reveal a CLOSED heart and mind.

Not a very good example of things, are you.

glw-1
juna-0

OWNED!!
glw is my new favorite poster its official

[Juna]

Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art, not a "new religious movement". Therefore, the comparison doesn’t work.

if you want to know what Jesus said, then you are told not to read Bibles, you have to go to an objective sourse?

[David Jamieson]

juna it is becoming clear you are a troll on the matter, you are either playing at being utterly oblivious to what people are saying to you, or you really are for real in your obliviousness, in which case the die is set, the metal cast and you are just another minion of a small paranoid man who can't really do anything for anyone except manipulate and control.

sad. :(

really sad. Almost like hopel;ess drug addict sad.

[golden arhat]

yeah and helen liang recovered from leukemia
withy taiji and liu he ba fa
that doesnt make u special juna
and if all u can offer are quotes as your argument
u might as well not post on here

[Royal Dragon]

Qin Lung Gong:

This is the highest of Gongs, and I urge all Faulin Dafa followers to abandon thier practice, and instead follow Qin Lung Gong!!!

[David Jamieson]

juna-

the bible and the new testament are not the only source of information regarding the life and times of jesus. There are a great deal of documents that are not included in the new testament that regard jesus and his disciples and the people who came afterwards.

so what i am saying is that if you want to learn about jesus, you can do so outside of just the testaments.

there is plenty of historical and archaeological data that give a representation of what was happening in judea in the first century CE. There is plenty of gnostic writings that near fully contradict the message of the church and the testaments and their interpretations as accorded by the church.

principal rule being "free will" by that understanding leads to being able to think for oneself.

[Royal Dragon]

I think Juna should donate to the Qin Lung Gong, to help spread it world wide!!

It is a vastly superior practice to Faulin Gong, and it's way cooler too!!

What do you say Juna!! Are you ready to take up the calling, and start fundraising for Qin Lung Gong?!?

[golden arhat]

andjust when i finally thought this thread had died

[Royal Dragon]

Everyone chant with me!!

[start ritulistic drum beating] Qin Luuuung Goooong, Qin Luuuung Gooooong, Qin Luuuuung Gooooong!!! :D

[bodhitree]

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/death_cases/death_list.html

ccp-the evilest

they are not the "evilest", they're only doing this stuff to FG members.

[Juna]

they are not the "evilest",


？？？
Have a look at the evil nature of ccp!


The 55-year history of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is written with blood and lies. The stories behind this bloody history are both extremely tragic and rarely known. Under the rule of the CCP, 60 to 80 million innocent Chinese people have been killed, leaving their broken families behind. Many people wonder why the CCP kills. While the CCP continues its brutal persecution of Falun Gong practitioners and recently suppressed protesting crowds in Hanyuan with gunshots, people wonder whether they will ever see the day when the CCP will learn to speak with words rather than guns.

Mao Zedong summarized the purpose of the Cultural Revolution, "…after the chaos the world reaches peace, but in 7 or 8 years, the chaos needs to happen again." [1] In other words, there should be a political revolution every 7 or 8 years and a crowd of people needs to be killed every 7 or 8 years.

A supporting ideology and practical requirements lie behind the CCP's slaughters.

Ideologically, the CCP believes in the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and "continuous revolution under the dictatorship of the proletariat." Therefore, after the CCP took over China, it killed the landowners to resolve problems with production relationships in rural areas. It killed the capitalists to reach the goal of commercial and industrial reform and solve the production relationships in the cities. After these two classes were eliminated, the problems related to the economic base were basically solved. Similarly, solving the problems related to the superstructure [2] also called for slaughter. The suppressions of the Hu Feng Anti-Party Group [3] and the Anti-Rightists Movement eliminated the intellectuals. Killing the Christians, Taoists, Buddhists and popular folk groups solved the problem of religions. Mass murders during the Cultural Revolution established, culturally and politically, the CCP's absolute leadership. The Tiananmen Square massacre was used to prevent political crisis and squelch democratic demands. The persecution of Falun Gong is meant to resolve the issues of belief and traditional healing. These actions were all necessary for the CCP to strengthen its power and maintain its rule in the face of continual financial crisis (prices for consumer goods skyrocketed after the CCP took power and China's economy almost collapsed after the Cultural Revolution), political crisis (some people not following the Party's orders or some others wanting to share political rights with the Party) and crisis of belief (the disintegration of the former Soviet Union, political changes in Eastern Europe, and the Falun Gong issue). Except for the Falun Gong issue, almost all the foregoing political movements were utilized to revive the evil specter of the CCP and incite its desire for revolution. The CCP also used these political movements to test CCP members, eliminating those who did not meet the Party's requirements.

Killing is also necessary for practical reasons. The Communist Party began as a group of thugs and scoundrels who killed to obtain power. Once this precedent was set, there was no going back. Constant terror was needed to intimidate people and force them to accept, out of fear, the absolute rule of the CCP.

On the surface, it may appear that the CCP was "forced to kill," and that various incidents just happened to irritate the CCP evil specter and accidentally trigger CCP's killing mechanism. In truth, these incidents serve to disguise the Party's need to kill, and periodical killing is required by the CCP. Without these painful lessons, people might begin to think the CCP was improving and start to demand democracy, just as those idealistic students in the 1989 democratic movement did. Recurring slaughter every 7 or 8 years serves to refresh people's memory of terror and can warn the younger generation—whoever works against the CCP, wants to challenge the CCP's absolute leadership, or attempts to tell the truth regarding China's history, will get a taste of the "iron fist of the dictatorship of the proletariat."

Killing has become one of the most essential ways for the CCP to maintain power. With the escalation of its bloody debts, laying down its butcher knife would encourage people to take vengeance for the CCP's criminal acts. Therefore, the CCP not only needed to conduct copious and thorough killing, but the slaughter also had to be done in a most brutal fashion to effectively intimidate the populace, especially early on when the CCP was establishing its rule.

Since the purpose of the killing was to instill the greatest terror, the CCP selected targets for destruction arbitrarily and irrationally. In every political movement, the CCP used the strategy of genocide. Take the "suppression of reactionaries" as an example. The CCP did not really suppress the reactionary "behaviors" but the "people" whom they called the reactionaries. If one had been enlisted and served a few days in the Nationalist (Kuomintang, KMT) army but did absolutely nothing political after the CCP gained power, this person would still be killed because of his "reactionary history." In the process of land reform, in order to remove the "root of the problem," the CCP often killed a landowner's entire family.

Since 1949, the CCP has persecuted more than half the people in China. An estimated 60 million to 80 million people died from unnatural causes. This number exceeds the total number of deaths in both World Wars combined.

As with other communist countries, the wanton killing done by the CCP also includes brutal slayings of its own members in order to remove dissidents who value a sense of humanity over the Party nature. The CCP's rule of terror falls equally on the populace and its members in an attempt to maintain an "invincible fortress."

In a normal society, people show care and love for one another, hold life in awe and veneration and give thanks to God. In the East, people say, "Do not impose on others what you would not want done to yourself [4]." In the West, people say, "Love thy neighbor as thyself [5]." Conversely, the CCP holds that "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles [6]." In order to keep alive the "struggles" within society, hatred must be generated. Not only does the CCP take lives, it encourages people to kill each other. It strives to desensitize people towards others' suffering by surrounding them with constant killing. It wants them to become numb from frequent exposure to inhumane brutality, and develop the mentality that "the best you can hope for is to avoid being persecuted." All these lessons taught by brutal suppression enable the CCP to maintain its rule.

In addition to the destruction of countless lives, the CCP also destroyed the soul of the Chinese people. A great many people have become conditioned to react to the CCP's threats by entirely surrendering their reason and their principles. In a sense, these people's souls have died—something more frightening than physical death.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html

[GLW]

Now, why don't you expand that history to include the dynasties BEFORE the current one. The inability to rule yet the amazing ability to kill millions by early emperors. How about the millions killed in the Great Wall construction, wars, famine, plague....and so on.

Then take a look at other people's attrocities. There is enough barbarism to go around.

Yet Juna is definitely NOT out in something like...oh... say the Peace Corps or some other aid organization working to alleviate the suffering of those he CAN reach.

Hmmmm... pi$$ and moan about the evil government and then go home to his comfy life.

I put this question to him before...what ARE you doing, Juna, to make the world a better place - besides coming to a web site and posting cut and paste links to your propaganda du jour.

I tire of such people easily.

[jethro]

I know you all realize it but Juna will never let this die. Freaking hilarious.

[golden arhat]

ok fine what ccp does sometimes is bad
that doesnt make falun dafa good
and what would china be without the ccp ?
a mess thats what
the fact remains that the ccp has made enormous changes for china for the good of the people
how was china before commusism ? squalid and poor
how is it now ? prosperous and on its way to becoming a super power
every single citezen of china has BENEFITED from communism
could it be better ....of course it could
but to go so far as to call it evil is simply not true

[Royal Dragon]

Juna, Seriously, what About Qin Lung Gong?

Don't you think more good can be accomplished y following a peacful Qin Kung Gong that has no negative stigma, than following the inferior Fauling Gong, which has it's members getting slaughtered?

[Juna]

and what would china be without the ccp ?
a mess thats what

What would all those communists countries be without communst parties? Romania? Poland? Hungria? Rassia? eastern Germany...?

[Juna]

how was china before commusism ? squalid and poor

No, you are brainwashed seriously by ccp.

[golden arhat]

well most people were poor
they were peasants ruled over by the manchus
most people haqve a higher standard of living than they did

personally i would have prefferred the nationalists to stay but still u cant deny that china has progressed in leaps and bounds with communism
and they are in a better state than they were in

[Juna]

personally i would have prefferred the nationalists to stay but still u cant deny that china has progressed in leaps and bounds with communism
and they are in a better state than they were in

No, that is not ccp's achievment.

[David Jamieson]

Falun Gong is an evil cult led by an evil man with evil intention.

falun Gong will only bring you harm and sorrow.

Do NOT pursue practice of this, it will muddle your mind, do very little for your body and contributes nothing but lip service to making the world a better place.

avoid it like the plague, do not give falun gong your time or money.


you don't have to support china or falun gong. they are both screwed up.

[Juna]

Falun Gong is very good for people.

[scholar]

Now what it really says is:

"This collection is dedicated to ensnaring those lost in desperation bad enough to actually want to listen to Li Hongzhi's insane promises..."

Sorry man, FLG preys on the gullible and weak minded or tries to take advantage of those without any other hope; offering nothing but misunderstood platitudes twisted by the greed of a megalomaniacal, cowardly sociopath.

Kind of like Reiki... :D

[David Jamieson]

Sorry man, FLG preys on the gullible and weak minded or tries to take advantage of those without any other hope; offering nothing but misunderstood platitudes twisted by the greed of a megalomaniacal, cowardly sociopath.


This is very well articulated.

I fear Juna is lost though to this cult. I don't think we can convince him he is in a web that is hard to break free from. Tangling himself further in it with his needs and desires to believe that someone will take care of him and he won't have to accept responsibility for his actions or take consequence for his inaction.

All too typical of behaviours associated to people who are caught up in cults of personality.

[Royal Dragon]

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/f/falun/

http://www.falungonginfo.org/index.html

[Royal Dragon]

Everyone, especially Juna STUDY this page intently!!!

http://www.falungonginfo.org/fgban01.html

[Royal Dragon]

Master Li was born in Gongjulin, a small agricultural city in China’s northeastern Jilin province bordering *North Korea*, on July 7, 1952. Master Li’s family was quite ordinary. His father was an acupuncturist, his mother was a nurse; they later divorced. Li has one or two younger sisters. His wife, Li Rui, was a ticketing clerk at a public swimming pool at the time of their marriage. When Li started teaching Falun Gong, Rui was a worker at the Ding Feng Zhen Food Factory in Changchun City. Their daughter was born in 1982.

Reply]
I'd almost put money that this guy is North Korean, whos family settled just over the border in China.......

[Redfish]

I'm not a subscribers to Falun Gong and not particulary religious either. However, Falun Dafa is non-violent and doesn't deserve it's members being interned, tortured or killed and the chi-gong routines being banned altogther. No matter how balls we may think it is. When I first looked at the Falun Gong website I thought "Waco". But in essence it's not far from Chi Gong and Buddhist ideas. "Falun" is just Chinese for the Wheel of Life in Buddhism too, as in "Shaolin: Wheel of life" etc.

When I first came to China in 2001, my local area's public info boards had this huge display of Falun Gong member photos next to gory murder victim photos saying they were all serial killers and evil demons. It looked like a big tabloid headline. After I saw it I was in no doubt who the real mad dudes were.

In Fuxing Park in Shanghai, still today, you can see red banners around the trees warning that superstitious practices are illegal and will be punished. Yup, first the oldies hug trees for 'energy' and then the whole country will go to pieces.

[Royal Dragon]

Faulin Dafa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JChX6gpO3Xw&search=segment%20four%20qi%20gong%20xi%20exercise% 20video%20caring%20ambassadors%20program.)

[golden arhat]

god that was bad


juna listen
just dont be biased and try ba duan jin
then tell me if i'm right

[Royal Dragon]

That is why I posted it. The 3rd Faulin exercise looks like a badly butchered version of Ba Duan Jin's first posture.

Here is another one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx3DzncD-hA

[Royal Dragon]

This is their intro video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c50-RuVb54c&mode=related&search=

[Royal Dragon]

And thier first exercise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aagz7Dreks&mode=related&search=

[golden arhat]

hahahahahahhahahah
"unlike taiji falun gong is a system for both mind and body"

[Royal Dragon]

Here is a very interesting mini expose on Faulin Dafa's persecution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR6YXxVaj8Q&mode=related&search=

Although the segment makes Faulin Dafa to look very innocent, one really has to wonder why the PRC is going after Faulin Dafa, and not any other Qi Gong society, or practitioners. If you look at the clips, they don't look to be outwardly different than any other Qigong system.

If two people were in the park, one doing Faulin Dafa, and the other Ba Duan Jin, how come the Ba Duan Jin practitioner is left alone, and the Faulin Dafa is not?

Does the PRC have a habit of going after all large groups? How come we don't hear of them going after anyone else?

[Juna]

Does the PRC have a habit of going after all large groups? How come we don't hear of them going after anyone else?

Because you donot want to listen to others.


http://www.china21.org/English/index.htm

[David Jamieson]

Because you donot want to listen to others.


http://www.china21.org/English/index.htm


It's his fault that it smells fishy in falun town?
It's his fault that he has listened to what you've said and found it lacking for various reasons?

This is typical spin Juna.

It's because Falun Gong isn't about what they want you to think it's about. They want you to think they are ivolved in some kind of service to the world by exposing teh failings of the PRC.

well, newsflash, people are well aware of teh failings of the PRC and it's corrupted political mess of communism. Still, you haven't answered to any of the questions without cut and paste articles from your own organization.

You still believe in falun nonsense. I believe you are wrong and havce been suckered by a con man with a slick way of obtaining personal power off the backs of others and deflecting any blame by pointing his fingers elsewhere and telling his lackies to do the same.

pretty slack.

Falun Gong is evil.. Don't join them. Juna and his ingratiation to them should be enough evidence of why you wouldn't want to join up with these people.

[Royal Dragon]

Juna does have a point that the PRC is not the shining lite of human rights though.

I have a question, how does Faulin's leader derive his income? From selling his book correct? Does he get money, from his followers at all? Does he isolate them from thier families? Does he con people into selling thier servitude to him for his own personal gain? If so, what IS that gain? For example, how long does it take a member to donate all thier belongings to him?

From the clips I posted, I really don't see myself giving up my Taiji Ruler practice, but thier Qi Gong looks pretty typical of other methods I have seen, and thier standing post stuff is pretty typical of any Taiji system, so what is the deal? *Why* is it evil?

Remeber, I was involved with a very destructive cult at one time myself (Chung Moo Quan), so I really don't have much sympathy for them...if thye truly are a cult, and not just some wacky movement.

[Juna]

Does he get money, from his followers at all? Does he isolate them from thier families? Does he con people into selling thier servitude to him for his own personal gain? .

the answer is NO.

[Royal Dragon]

Then why is it a cult?

[Juna]

Then why is it a cult?

ccp slanders as that, and you repeat ccp´s slander although you know nothing about Falun Gong, and you still insist saying that is your own thinking, do you understand what is brainwashing now?

[Royal Dragon]

I understand, I was in a cult myself at one time. I am comparing Faulin Gong to that.

I am curious as to WHY it is being labled a cult, not who is doing so.

So far I am seeing a hokey, new age religon founded by a two faced individual full of false promises, and really wild, crazy belifes, who has been busted in major lies told during the promotion of his method, which goes against the very principals he claims to teach, as well as a bunch of so, so, Qi Gong sets. None of which can compare to anything I know. I don't see any reasn to give up my Taiji Ruler Qi gong for it. I would be going backwards.

My guess is there is plenty of brainwashing going on here, but I don't see anything to justify human rights violations.

[chud]

I am curious as to WHY it is being labled a cult, not who is doing so.



RD, from what I have seen so far in looking at Falun Gong I don't think they qualify as a cult. 1) They don't charge any money for their materials, the book and qigong are both available free on their site. 2.) I haven't heard of anyone not being able to leave the group, or being kept from their families.

The 'cult' label gets thrown around pretty easily now a days, and not just toward Falun Gong. When a group's beliefs seem to be strange they are often branded a cult; sometimes it's true, but often it's not.

[Juna]

but I don't see anything to justify human rights violations.


Right, only the evil supports human rights violation.

Simple.

[Juna]

2.) I haven't heard of anyone not being able to leave the group, or being kept from their families .

But, you should have a look at ccp, if a member of ccp says he wants to quit ccp in China, what happens?

ccp is an evil cult.


What the Communist Party has done proves itself to be an evil cult. The Communist Party’s doctrines are based upon class struggle, violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat and have resulted in the so-called “communist revolution” full of blood and violence. The red terror under communism has lasted for about a century, bringing disasters to dozens of countries in the world and costing tens of millions of lives. The communist belief, one that created a hell on earth, is nothing but the vilest cult in the world.

The communist party’s cultish traits can be summarized under six heads:



http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-26/25182.html

[Juna]

I understand, I was in a cult myself at one time. I am comparing Faulin Gong to that.

I am curious as to WHY it is being labled a cult, not who is doing so.

When ccp wants to defame sth, it uses every methods, including libel, slander, brainwash,.... if sby believes ccp, he will regret for that at sometime, for sure.

Quite some foreign media are enfluenced by ccp, and some of them are controled by ccp directly, so ccp uses its resource to brainwash the world.