FALUN GONG/Falun Dafa [Archive] - Page 5

David Jamieson

11-25-2006, 07:06 AM

Some of your questions are far from the teaching of Falun Dafa, so you really donot know what Falun Dafa is, and you have acted as if you are an expert, so my suggestion for you is--read Falun Dafa's books carefully.

uh, no juna.

my questions are related directly to what li hongzhi, your leader and master and teacher has to say.

so are you saying that the teachings are "only" what's in a little book you get and what your teacher/leader/master says and how he acts has nothing to do with the organization he founded and created and cast upon the world?

Let me phrase it this way:

Do you believe through your fg doings that:

a) aliens control the human race. (li says this and promotes it in his teachings, I don't know why you would put this outside his teachings, he's made several inferences about this point)

b)the chinese are the master race and everyone came from them (this is also a fundamental belief of li's and therefor it is woven in with his teachings that you practiec and ythionk are good)

c)only li hongzi and through faith in him can install the wheel of law in your belly (Li teaches this directly, do you believe it?)

d)you don't need medical attention if you just practice the fg/fd exercises and cultivation again, this is Li's and the FG/FD teachings. Do you believe it?

e)that the leader of fg/fd is in essence a demi-urge and enlightened being? (there are many accounts and Li's own self profession that he is a christ essence incarnate, do you believe he is?)

f)mixed race people are in some way different than anyone else simply because they come from mixed parentage. (this comes directly out ofthe source and we have argued here in this thread about it, you ahve even alluded to how you may inded believe that mixed race is something other than human, do you believe?)

I'm only asking for simp-le yes or no answer and all of this is directly related to th teachings of falun gong even if they are smothered under blankets of droning and go nowhere reminiscences.

the core beliefs come back to these things for me and why are these in there, they seem odd and idiosyncratic and contrary to what the message is.

In fact, FG/FD hasn't really got a message at all do they? What is the message?

Seems to be just a jumble of political action in foreign countries and accusations and stage plays of what they allege goes on in China.

anyway, yes or no Juna? Not that hard, if you really think they are that far off, just answer "no" I don't believe that. pretty simple.

Royal Dragon

11-25-2006, 02:42 PM

LOL!! David's last post # is 666......

David Jamieson

11-25-2006, 05:43 PM

juna, youa re a sidestepper. not a very good one, but nevertheless a sidestepper who does his best to avoid the questions that people want to have answered.

I've read quite a bit of Li's drivel. It's nonsense and Yes he does include these things I'm asking you.

why are you so eager to deflect from what is truly ridiculous and part and parcel to fg/fd.

so, if you don't want to answer those, I can understand why. They are embarassing and make fg/fd to look pretty silly, because...well, it is silly.

what does fg/fd really do?

do you raise money to actually help anyone or just standing around and protesting the existance of china is good enough?

what does fg/fd contribute that makes it so good? What do they have that is any different from what was already available?

the gongs are ripped directly out of other practices taht promote cultivation of mind and body. Evento the point where Li will make disparaging remarks about those very things that he has. well, stolen from and at the very least co-opted from other serious practice.

fg/fd seems to be so dodgy and so full of it. You can't help but wonder why people ask you teh kinds of questions that youa re so uncomfortable being asked.

I think if you cannot say "yes" or "no" then you don't have an answer. I've already linked all the information in here from varied and diffewrent websites some of which are very credible and others have information directly from your leader and master who ahs made direct statements to the effect of the questions I am asking you outright.

and yet you insist that everyone who doesn't think fg/fd is "good" as you keep repeating, is instead an agent of the evil ccp?

wanna answer those questions now?

Juna

11-26-2006, 01:09 AM

what does fg/fd contribute that makes it so good? What do they have that is any different from what was already available?

Good question.

One of the thousands awards can answer:

On June 5, 2006, Mayor Stephen Mandel of the City of Edmonton, Canada, proclaimed May 2006 as "Falun Dafa Month" in Edmonton, Alberta’s Capital City.

PROCLAMATION

Whereas, by incorporating the principles of Zhen-Shan-Ren, Truthfulness, Benevolence, and Forbearance, into their daily lives, Falun Dafa practitioners strive to become better people in all environments and situations;

And Whereas, the teachings of Falun Dafa through meditation and spiritual cultivation, are perceived as an effective means of improving health and reducing stress;

And Whereas, all Falun Dafa activities, including classes and practices, are offered by volunteers, and are free of charge;

Therefore, I, Mayor Stephen Mandel, Do hereby proclaim May, 2006 as "Falun Dafa Month" in Edmonton, Alberta’s Capital City.

Dated this 5th day of June, 2006

Stephen Mandel

Mayor of the City of Edmonton

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/article_images/2006-6-8-edmonton-pro.jpg

Juna

11-26-2006, 01:12 AM

and yet you insist that everyone who doesn't think fg/fd is "good" as you keep repeating, is instead an agent of the evil ccp?

Who told you that? some of them are cheated by ccp, and there are really some agents working for ccp to brainwash people.

golden arhat

11-26-2006, 07:56 AM

juna
are you a politician
u act like one
dont call dj a small child he is obviously of a higheer calibur than u
alot of the websites are not false half of them are actually read out by li hong zhi
and no they are not mistranslated
so just answer the questions and stop lying to yourself

David Jamieson

11-26-2006, 11:01 AM

juna-

I've asked my questions. You are refusing to answer them and you are posturing.

My questions were very simple yes or no type questions. I am more than a little surprised that these simple questions have exascerbated you in some way.

Look, I'm not interested in your cult, and I'm not interested in the empty words of a glad handing politician that doesn't really say anything at all. falun dafa month? lol, ridiculous.

I think the FG/FD folks deliberately lie to and con politicians all the time making the politicians think that if they support that they are being humane and anti communist or stand for something. In the meantime, did you read that proclamation? It's empty nonsensical drivel that has no bearing on anything.

what does FG/FD do for the impoverished? What do they do to alleviate the homeless problem? Do they run any sort of social justice or practice any real benevolence or is it all just liop service.

reality says that homeless people need clothes and food, you say fg/fd is compassionate and benevolnet, and yet I don't see them making any real efforts towards real problems.

what do they contribute? meditationa nd loyalty to Li is meaningless in the face of cold and hunger. real benevolence, real mercy and real compassion comes in the form of real servciecs and real materials being passed to those in need to help them meet their most basic needs so they are able to start focusing on other needs to move towards success in life.

read some of maslow's work for further clarification. particularly the points about a heirarchy of needs.

what Im asking is those simple questions as before and is there anywhere that fg/fd has outreach groups and real solid benevolence for real and solid day to day problems facing people.

I would give them due consideration if they did anything like that. do they? do they have a food bank even?

golden arhat

11-26-2006, 03:14 PM

that proves nothing of falun dafas worth
all it says is that it was a good political move
and lets not forget the biggest government thinks you are evil
thats right the ccp

jon

11-26-2006, 10:00 PM

heh.
Everytime Juna doesnt want to answer a question or gets backed into a corner he posts a bunch of rubbish ripped from another FG source to try to get to the next page.
I think Juna is quite happy in his little made up world, attempts to bring him into some form of reality are obviously way to much for his mind to handle.
Anyone who bothers to do any form of investigation into FG with an objective attitude will run into the multitude of inherent flaws in the belief system very quickly. The sad fact is many people are scared of having to think for themselves, so the prospect of having someone else tell them what to believe is way to powerful to resist.

I think the funniest thing about this thread is that Juna is only helping to distroy any semblence of credibility which FG may have had. His posts are obviously the work of an unstable mind. They are uniformly riddled with misinformation, lacking in any form of constructive argument, and heavily influenced by his own cognitive dissonance. In his attempt to portray FG in a positive light, he has only succeded in bringing futher shame on an already highly questionable organisation.
The irony of his posts is that they highlight the truism that there is little point in fighting an enemy that is already doing a great job of distroying itself.:rolleyes:

golden arhat

11-27-2006, 03:17 AM

i'm going to say the intellectual thing and say
BOO YAA!!!!! BYATCH

jon

11-27-2006, 04:48 AM

Well... that was surprising. You just proved my point by resorting to your standard tactic of posting rubbish pulled from a blantantly biased source in an attempt to divert attention away from any counter arguement . Your obviously incapable of backing up your own convictions with reasoned logic. Your feeble attempts to bury other peoples competing viewpoints in a mountain of propaganda are akin to a little child who simply covers their ears and yells LALALALALA.

NewToChen

11-27-2006, 05:23 AM

FG=Scientology with bean sprouts

new age loopyness, sold by a charlatan to the weak of mind.

There are cults that are just as stupid in the US and everywhere. The relationship between economic development and religion is that as people buy more things, they worry more about their things and less about what the Easter Bunny says, or more precisely, what some guy says the Easter Bunny says.

Is FG bad? No worse than any other religion...

golden arhat

11-27-2006, 06:17 AM

No, that might be some rigid thinking persons' view.

hahahha thats rich coming from someone who refuses to hear the other sides view point
you are the most rigid person i have seen on here

TaiChiBob

11-27-2006, 06:26 AM

Greetings..

Is FG bad? No worse than any other religion...Organized religion has failed to create peace and harmony, it promotes division and conflict through exclusion of others.. FG is no different.. The world needs a new spirituality, a new vision of unity and common purpose, a new understanding of "God", without so much religious baggage.. "God", as an all powerful, omnipotent, supreme being would fail in that description if it demanded worship and adoration.. If "God" is the supreme being, it has no needs or wants.. it would not take sides or support violence against its other creations.. these are human notions based on control and self-serving efforts to capitalize on people's inherent spiritual awareness.. We are ONE thing behaving in many ways, the One thing could be called "God", the many ways could be called humans.. in any case, the One would not condone violence against itself, would not exclude one part of itself in favor of another.. humans interpret Religion in human terms, and fail to see its "God-like" qualities..

FG is just another misinterpretation of simple spiritual awareness.. we all realize we are parts of greater whole, Religions separate that whole into conflicting concepts..

Worship nothing.. yet, maintain a sacred reverence for ALL things..

Be well..

Juna

11-27-2006, 08:09 AM

Greetings..

Organized religion
Be well..

Is Falun Gong a religion?

Falun Gong is a "cultivation practice" with emphasis on both elevating the mind and enhancing physical health. The concept of "cultivation" is not familiar to many Westerners, though in China, there is a strong sense of the concept of cultivation. The term in Chinese is xiu lian. Xiu means to "repair" or "fix." Lian means to "smelt" or "refine." The Chinese character for "lian" looks similar to and has the same pronunciation as the term "to practice [exercises]." This is only a direct translation of the characters that make up the term.

To get a more complete understanding of the concept of cultivation, we can look to China's history. Around 2,500 years ago, the sage Lao Zi (also spelled "Lao Tsu" and "Lao Tzu") appeared in China. Around the same time, Buddha Shakyamuni (also known as Siddartha Gautama) appeared in India. Lao Zi wrote the book Dao De Jing (Tao Te Ching), which was how most of society learned about what he called the "Dao" or the "Way." Shakyamuni spread Buddhism in India for 49 years, which was then passed on to China. These two schools then formed the basis for many spiritual practices in China.

Religions, as understood in Eastern cultures, are also considered forms of cultivation. There is the religion of Buddhism, which has temples, monks, etc., and there are several different sects of Buddhism. The cultivation way of the Buddha school does not end there though, as there are many practices from this school that are not considered part of the Buddhist religion. Often these practices are comprised of simply a teacher and students, but there are no religious formalities, places of worship, etc. These are also considered cultivation ways. The same is true for the Dao school. There is the religion of Daoism, but there are also many Daoist practices that are not considered to be religions in the Eastern way of thinking.

So in China, it is not considered necessary to be religious in order to achieve the goal of raising one's spiritual level, but one does need a cultivation practice. Here in the West, since we don't really have the concept of cultivation, anything spiritual or that has to do with transcending the human world has traditionally fallen under the concept of religion. Falun Gong is no exception.

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2004/9/1/52070.html

Falun Dafa is good.

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 09:42 AM

At this point, I think it's safe to say Fauin Dafa is a religious, new wave spritual religion that uses Qi Gong exercise taken from a variety of legit discplines.

The whole thig is built on many deceptions, and thearfore is deficient from the start.

AJM

11-27-2006, 09:53 AM

I've got five bucks that says someone in the prc government started falun gong for the chaos. See now you can go to shaolin for the "authorized qi gong"
black is white and white is black.

Royal Dragon

11-27-2006, 12:04 PM

Falun Gong, also known as Falun Dafa, is a traditional Chinese spiritual discipline for mind and body.

Reply]
That is a LIE!!!! It is a lie that is proven in the very next sentance!!!

The practice involves slow, gentle movements and meditation. It is easy to learn, enjoyable to practice, and free of charge. Its principles are based on Truth, Compassion, and Tolerance. The practice began in China in 1992 and quickly spread by word of mouth throughout China and then beyond. Falun Gong is practiced by over 100 million people in 60 countries. The main works of Falun Gong are available in over 30 languages.

Juna

11-27-2006, 01:36 PM

Falun Gong, also known as Falun Dafa, is a traditional Chinese spiritual discipline for mind and body.

Reply]
That is a LIE!!!! It is a lie that is proven in the very next sentance!!!

.[/I]

Falun Dafa has a long long history, however Mr. Li changed a little for people nowadays, and spread Dafa publicly in 1992, where is the lie?

Once again, all my posts in this forum are my little limited understanding, to know what Falun Dafa is, one has to read Mr. Li's books [/url]

Peace

David Jamieson

11-27-2006, 02:42 PM

ok, so lets revisit Li's and his organizations book again. Maybe Juna will be more open to answering questions directly about it's content.

In our country, [China], qigong has a long history, as it dates back to ancient times. Our people thus have a natural advantage in practicing qigong.

What is that supposed to mean Juna? Why would a chinese have an advantage at qigong practice?

As for phenomena that are intangible and invisible, but objectively existing and reflected into our physical world as real manifestations, they are avoided and treated as inexplicable phenomena. Stubborn people have, on unsubstantiated grounds, entrenched themselves in their argument that these are just “natural” phenomena.

This is contrary to buddhist thought regarding phenomena. "Regard all phenomena as illusion".

The qigong that we refer to today was not, in fact, originally called qigong. It originated from the solitary cultivation ways of the ancient Chinese people and from cultivation in religions.

I see, so Li was present at the creation of qigong then? I wonder if he realizes that Dhayana practices were brought into Chinese Culture vis a vis Nepal and India? Does he realize that shakyamuni Buddha was Nepali and not Chinese? :rolleyes: I think he does, and yet....read above:rolleyes:

What's crazy is, this is only 2 pages in!

Here's a gem

According to Darwin’s theory of evolution, humans evolved from apes, and civilization is no more than ten thousand years old. Yet archaeological findings have revealed that in the caves of the European Alps there exist 250-thousand-year-old frescoes that exhibit a very high level of artistry—one far beyond the abilities of modern people.

an absolute fabrication without one iota of truth in it! Clearly, Mr.Li has neglected actually reading Darwin and willingly believes outright lies about what does and does not exist in the archaeological timeline of europe. The oldest cave art is in Cheveaux caves in France. It is very liberal to put it into the 26k yr timeline. There are virtually no artifacts of artistic expression that can be dated beyond 40k yrs and most follow the collapse of the neanderthal version of ourselves.

Now, this appears that he is not in line with the idea of evolution....and yet, he uses it as an argument!
Who created those civilizations? How could human beings—who would have been microorganisms in those times—have
created these things?

he continues to say:

In the museum of the National University of
Peru, there is a large rock on which is an engraved figure who holds a telescope and is observing the stars.

ah yes, the pica stones, several hundred (even thousands) of which both in and out of diplay are known frauds created to meet a market for oddities. Li appears to be as gullible as his followers with statements such as this.

He makes comments that are all over the map about erich von daniken type nonsense and completely incorrect dates and times. for instance, he says that galileo invented a 30x telescope in 1609, while it's a small thing, the x is wrong. Look up Galileo and see for yourself what he produced.

Mr Li, in his excited state about the ancients makes this bold statement:

There is an iron pillar in India whose iron content is over ninety-nine percent. Even modern smelting technology cannot produce iron with such high purity; it had already surpassed the level of modern technology. (see above how Li uses the idea of humans as microorganisms which contradicts his position on evolution)

when in fact:
https://elgar.mywebserver.net/~webelem/shop/product.php/88/0/

I enjoy it when people say modern technology can't do whatthe ancients did. It's absolute hogwash of course. Current civilization is so far advanced to that of the ancient past the idea that we cannot do what was done is laughable. If there was reaons to do it, I'm sure we could do it and we could do it better and faster. have you ever been to ancient monuments Juna? I have. they are in fact easily seen as quite primitive when you stand there touching them and looking at their architecture. The mysteries don't hang in long in the face of the realities.

ok, so moving along, let's get to some larger revelations into the fg/fd thang.

The Falun of Falun Gong has the same nature as the universe, for it is a miniature ofthe universe. Cultivators of Falun Gong not only rapidly develop their supernormal abilities and gong potency, they also develop an incomparably powerful Falun in a brief period of time. Once developed, one’s Falun exists as an intelligent entity. It automatically spins ceaselessly in the practitioner’s lower abdominal area, constantly absorbing and transforming energy from the universe and ultimately converting the energy in the practitioner’s original-body into gong. Consequently, the effect of “the Fa refines the practitioner” is achieved. This means that the Falun constantly refines this person even though he or she doesn’t perform the exercises every minute. Internally, the Falun offers salvation to oneself. It makes a person stronger and healthier, more intelligent and wise, and it protects the practitioner from deviation. It can also protect the cultivator from interference by people with inferior xinxing.
Externally, the Falun can both heal sicknesses and eliminate evils for others,
rectifying all abnormal conditions. The Falun rotates continuously in the lower
abdominal area, turning clockwise nine times and then counterclockwise nine times.
When rotating clockwise, it vigorously absorbs energy from the universe and that
energy is very strong. Its rotational power becomes stronger as a person’s gong
potency improves. This is a state that can’t be attained by deliberate attempts to pour qi into the top of the head. When rotating counterclockwise, it releases energy and provides salvation to all beings, rectifying abnormal states. People around the practitioner benefit. Of all the qigong practices taught in our country, Falun Gong is the first and only cultivation method that has achieved “the Fa refines the practitioner.”

This is a pretty bold statement don't you think? It absolutely can be disproved, yet there you have it...or, I'm sorry, is the wheel interdimensional and undetectable except to the fg/fd member who had his shiny new wheel installed by Li? Of course it is! How convenient then! By including the statement that is "Externally, the Falun can both heal sicknesses and eliminate evils for others, rectifying all abnormal conditions" is to say in a nutshell that if you do this, conventional medicine, or any medicine is not necessary. I believe this caused a few deaths and ultimately, besides the whole political nonsense that fg/fd loves to wallow in, irked the government of china. This statement is ludicrous and wholly untruthful in short. Li or anyone in the organization can absolutely not demonstrate the healing power of this wheel. It is like fake self defense demos where only willing and complicit students are used to demonstrate what are actually in real life, ineffective tactics.

Falun Gong works this way: It fundamentally changes the
molecular composition of the human body, storing the gathered high-energy matter in each cell and ultimately allowing this high-energy matter to replace the cellular components. Metabolism will no longer occur. A person thus transcends the five elements, having turned his or her body into one composed of substances from other dimensions. This person will be young forever, as he or she is no longer restrained by our space-time. more lies and false promises. This can absolutely not be demonstrated.

The bodies of practitioners are purified. They won’t contract illness after gong develops, because the presence of this high-energy substance in the body no longer permits the presence of the black substance. Yet some people just refuse to believe this and always think that they are sick. They complain, “Why am I so uncomfortable?” We say that what you have gained is gong. How can you not have discomfort when you’ve gained such a good thing? In cultivation one has to give things up in an exchange. In fact, all of the discomfort is on the surface and has no impact whatsoever on your body. ...and then the person died of cancer... :rolleyes:

anyway...

I would also encourage anyone to download and read this book. it's only 100 pages and thankfully doesn't contain much text and uses up almost half of the book in pictures of the chi kungs which are clearly co-opted from various practices like wild goose, shaolin, golden dragon , etc etc etc.

So what does FG/FD really offer it's adherents? A fairy tale?

golden arhat

11-28-2006, 03:33 AM

i swear u better actually read that post
u cant ignore stuff like that
cant u see your own foolishness as we can ?

Juna

11-28-2006, 04:28 AM

What is that supposed to mean Juna? Why would a chinese have an advantage at qigong practice?

My understanding, Chinese has a cultivation culture in history, so it is easier for them to accept the concept of cultivation, so it is an advantage.

Juna

11-28-2006, 04:31 AM

This is contrary to buddhist thought regarding phenomena. "Regard all phenomena as illusion".

Who said we must comply with Buddhism's teaching?

Juna

11-28-2006, 04:36 AM

I wonder if he realizes that Dhayana practices were brought into Chinese Culture vis a vis Nepal and India? Does he realize that shakyamuni Buddha was Nepali and not Chinese? :rolleyes: I think he does, and yet....read above:rolleyes:

Who said only Buddha Shakyamuni taught people how to cultivate?

Juna

11-28-2006, 04:47 AM

...and then the person died of cancer...

Many people with cancer became healthy after practicing Falun Dafa.

Disease has long posed as a formidable enemy of the human race. Despite rapid advancement in modern medicine, there are still many illnesses with no known cure. Countless people around the world live and suffer in the shadow of their sickness. The following is a collection of testimonials by people who experienced miraculous recoveries after embracing the powerful self-cultivation practice of Falun Gong. Following the path of "Truthfulness, Compassion, and Tolerance", has brought health, clarity, and wisdom to these people and many more.
These stories represent a small fraction of the numerous accounts of this nature. Because of an ongoing persecution of Falun Gong in China, most practitioners have been unable to share their experience with the world.

Falun Gong, also known as Falun Dafa, was first introduced to the public in 1992 by Mr. Li Hongzhi. Due to its remarkable health benefits and its noble cultivation principles of "Truthfulness, Compassion, and Tolerance," the practice became widely popular across China and around the world in a matter of years. Over the past five years of persecution, practitioners have remained determined in their belief and incredibly compassionate as they clarify the facts to the people deceived by propaganda and lies.

This collection is dedicated to those lost in desperation due to seemingly deadly disease. Our wish is that you benefit by reading these stories, and that a sense of hope and happiness will bless your life from this moment on.

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/136/

Royal Dragon

11-28-2006, 06:09 AM

Falun Gong is an excellent Qi-gong that benefits people both physically and mentally.

Reply]
First, I highly suspect your numbers here. Second Qi Gong PERIOD has been shown to help heal, and cure illneses.

THIRD, Faulin Gong's Qi Gong system is just various Qi Gongs taken from a myriad of legit systems anyway. Many of which are more vast and diverse than Faulin Gong is anyway. Looking at it, Faulin Gong is at best a beginner's Qi Gong.

I still see no reason to give up my Taiji Ruler practice for it.

David Jamieson

11-28-2006, 07:01 AM

juna, just lemme say that, only a fool will heed the words of another fool.

People don't have rigid minds because they point out the fallacy of Li Hongzhis cult of personality and co-opted qigong.

It is not rigidity to call a blatant fool and egoiste what he is.

I for one have now read his newly redacted book, which I'm sure will change again, then again, I've read his older stuff as well and have in fact been watching this weirdness go on for about 10 years.

At first, I gave it some buy in because it represented something to me that I projected outward as good.

But with time and observation and participation it is not hard to see what fg/fd really is.

Falun Dafa in principle is not good. It is the production of an unhealthy and chaotic mind that is filled with fear and hate. And that is not good no matter how you slice it.

I feel kinda sorry for you that you can't even for one second take a look at what's what and instead choose to gloss over the hard light of day facts that are presented to you and drawn from your own teachings.

Now THAT, is a rigid mind Juna. Perhaps you find some comfort in the community you have found after being rejected by mainstream culture or what not, or like many other FG/FD folks or the ilk, You cannot or do not have the coping skills to deal with the realities of life and so you cocoon into the safety of not having to do anything at all.

falun dafa is inert. the qigongs are just qigongs. The pseudo quasi trying to be philosophy that Li likes to spew forth is merely for himto obtain and grow personal power for himself.

I know you can't understand, it is hard for you. It's hard for anyone to accept they have spent their time fruitlesly and have been conned and lied to. You desperately want to believe that you have been given the correct and the good, when in fact you're just another patsy for the man. Only a different man. A smaller, more deluded man who you put faith in.

That Buddha within you will eventually reveal that to your external and scared self that cannot face the world. Hopefully it's not while you are drawing your last breath. redemption is much better when you still have years left to make use of it. :)

Juna

11-28-2006, 09:24 AM

Falun Gong is an excellent Qi-gong that benefits people both physically and mentally.

Reply]
I still see no reason to give up my Taiji Ruler practice for it.

No one is persuading you to give up your own practice.

Falun Dafa gives people to chance to returning to one's original, true self.

Juna

11-28-2006, 09:34 AM

Falun Dafa in principle is not good. It is the production of an unhealthy and chaotic mind that is filled with fear and hate. And that is not good no matter how you slice it.

TRUTHFULNESS, BENEVOLENCE and FORBEARANCE, which one is not good?

According to your logic, ccp's evil atrocity is good?

B-Rad

11-28-2006, 10:50 AM

TRUTHFULNESS, BENEVOLENCE and FORBEARANCE, which one is not good?
They're excellent traits to have, unfortunately, some of the rest of the teachings and the leadership's actions contradict these values as have been shown, devaluing the rest of the teachings.

According to your logic, ccp's evil atrocity is good?
He never said they were. Though I suppose you could say that the Chinese government's analysis of the group isn't far off, though their methods at dealing with the cult aren't good.

David Jamieson

11-28-2006, 12:37 PM

Your statement is full of ignorant and libel.

TRUTHFULNESS, BENEVOLENCE and FORBEARANCE, which one is not good?

According to your logic, ccp's evil atrocity is good?

You have already created huge amount bad karma for yourself. That is not funny, when at last you realize what sin you have commited, you never dare to act as this now.

For your own sake, donot bet when you donot really know what you will lose, extremely dangers for yourself.

Good will be reawarded, evil be be punished.

Juna, you are truly lost. I hope you find your way back to reality.

David Jamieson

11-28-2006, 01:49 PM

Bibel or slander righteous practice is not a funny thing.

I hope you watch out your words, even if you think you are more clever than 100 million practitioners and thousands of governments that gave awards to Falun Dafa.

The punishment for those slanders is terrible, the gods, the universe know who you are, so donot play game with such serious topic.

The purpose that I am here is try to help people to have a right view at this, and hope people will have a good future, but one has to choose for his own.

Juna-

I haven't Libeled or slander anything, I'm drawing directly out of your little book and articles with your leader to point out that the emperor really has no clothes.

You are bold to say you know the universe so intimately. Please reassess.

Your purpose here shows to not be about helping, but rather about convincing others to join your cult in order to validate it.

I for one will not validate your cult because it is wrong in principle. Right from the start it is incorrect because it was formed by a man who obviously is seriously dissconnected from reality on so many levels it is not funny.

Taking advantage of the millions of people who have agape to forward a quest for personal power is the only evil I see here Juna. You are a willing participant in the evil goals of a demented man.

Believe it or not, this is very disheartening. Your persistence even moreso. You are completely unwilling to take at least one step back and review it seems.

It is sad to see and know that people willingly give up their free will and minds to such a man as Li Hongzhi. I'm afraid that if there is any price to be paid karma wise, it is you and your ilk who will be paying.

Juna

11-29-2006, 04:12 AM

It is sad to see and know that people willingly give up their free will and minds .

Every Falun Gong practitioner has his own free will and free mind.

But ccp does not allow people have free will:

Violent Brainwashing, Mind Control, Tight Organization and No Quitting Once Admitted

The CCP’s organization is extremely tight: one needs two party members’ references before admission; a new member must swear to be loyal to the party forever once admitted; party members must pay membership dues, attend organizational activities, and take part in group political study. The party organizations penetrate all levels of the government. There are basic CCP organizations in every single village, town, and neighborhood. The CCP controls not only its party members and party affairs, but also those who are not members, because the entire regime must “adhere to the Party’s leadership.” In those years when class struggle campaigns were carried out, the “priests” of the CCP religion, namely, the Party secretaries at all levels, more often than not, did not know exactly what they did other than disciplining people.

The “criticism and self-criticism” in the party meetings serves as a common, unending means for controlling the minds of party members. Throughout its existence, the CCP has launched a multitude of political movements for “purifying the Party members,” “rectifying the Party atmosphere,” “capturing traitors,” “purging the Anti-Bolshevik Corps (AB Corps) [3]” and “disciplining the Party,” periodically testing the “sense of Party nature”—that is, using violence and terror to test the Party members’ devotion to the Party, while assuring they keep in step with it forever.

Joining the CCP is like signing an irrevocable contract to sell one’s body and soul. With the Party’s rules being always above the laws of the Nation, the Party can dismiss any party member at will, while the individual party member cannot quit the CCP without incurring severe punishment. Quitting the Party is considered disloyal and will bring about dire consequences. During the Great Cultural Revolution when the CCP cult held absolute rule, it was well known that if the party wanted you dead, you could not live; if the party wanted you alive, you could not die. If a person committed suicide, he would be labeled as “dreading the people’s punishment for his crime” and his family members would also be implicated and punished.

The decision process within the Party operates like a black box, as the intra-party struggles must be kept in absolute secrecy. Party documents are all confidential. Dreading exposure of their criminal acts, the CCP frequently tackles dissidents by charging them with “divulging state secrets.”

4. Urging Violence, Carnage and Sacrifice for the Party

Mao Zedong said, “A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another.” [4]

Deng Xiaoping recommended “Killing 200,000 people in exchange for 20 years’ stability.”

Jiang Zemin ordered, “Destroy them (Falun Gong practitioners) physically, defame their reputation, and bankrupt them financially.”

The CCP promotes violence, and has killed countless people throughout its previous political movements. It educates people to treat the enemy “as cold as the severe winter.” The red flag is understood to be red for having been “dyed red with martyrs’ blood.” The Party worships red due to its addiction to blood and carnage.

The CCP makes an exhibition of “heroic” examples to encourage people to sacrifice for the Party. When Zhang Side died working in a kiln to produce opium, Mao Zedong praised his death as being “heavy as Mount Tai [5].” In those frenzied years, “brave words” such as “Fear neither hardship nor death” and “Bitter sacrifice strengthens bold resolve; we dare to make the sun and moon shine in new skies” gave aspirations substance amidst an extreme shortage of material supplies.

At the end of the 1970s, the Vietcong dispatched troops and overthrew the Khmer Rouge regime, which was fostered by the CCP and committed unspeakable crimes. Although the CCP was furious, it could not dispatch troops to support the Khmer Rouge, since China and Cambodia did not share a common border. Instead, the CCP launched a war against Vietnam along the Chinese-Vietnam border to punish the Vietcong in the name of “self-defense.” Tens of thousands of Chinese soldiers therefore sacrificed blood and lives for this struggle between Communist Parties. Their deaths had in fact nothing to do with territory or sovereignty. Nevertheless, several years later, the CCP disgracefully memorialized the senseless sacrifice of so many naive and bright young lives as “the revolutionary heroic spirit,” irreverently borrowing the song “The elegant demeanor dyed by blood.” 154 Chinese martyrs died in 1981 recapturing Mount Faka in Guangxi Province, but the CCP casually returned it to Vietnam after China and Vietnam surveyed the boundary.

When the rampant spread of SARS threatened people’s lives at the beginning of 2003, the CCP readily admitted many young female nurses. These women were then quickly confined in hospitals to nurse SARS patients. The CCP push young people to the most dangerous frontline, in order to establish its “glorious image” of “Fear neither hardship nor death.” However, the CCP has no explanation as to where the rest of the current 65 million party members were and what image they brought to the Party.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-26/25182.html

David Jamieson

11-29-2006, 06:06 AM

Juna, what you are spreading is equal propoganda and only serves to muddy the truth even more.

a lot of what fg/fd protestors go on about is absolutely fallicious and untrue.

Many of us, if not all of us are aware the ccp is a communist government and yes, they ahve a bad record of human rights.

we know this before fg/fd decides to make noise in the west.

does fg/fd do anything in China? No! Only abroad they tell their tales but unlike other movements within china, they are indirect and no where near as active as th democracy now group say or others.

besides, what does your little book have to do with any of that?

what are you? a political chump? there's nothing like that in your leaflet.

yourleaflet is all about space aliens, ancient anomolies and other various rants and fantasies followed by a short series of qigongs that have been ripped from various sources.

You don't seem to recognize the evil that springs forth from such chaotic actions and mind. fg/fd is chaos and nonsensical, you trip over your words, you evade questions, and you outright lie about what fg/fd is to otehrs here and to yourself.

fg/fd is evil, li hongzhi is a greedy and evil little man and you are a sheep.

that is the truth. we know chinese governmentr leaves much to be desired, but your directionless and chaotic mind cult is screwed up even worse.

break free of it, you think you are free, but you are a slave to your cult. Li would have you all be his slaves. He is a twisted mind in this world.

You can't even post your own commentary and resort to the nonsense and drivel and pack of lies from your little websites of perpetuated nonsense.

remarkable really. Li must have a real grip on you. your mind is weakened by fg/fd.

wake up and wipe the foolishness away. the vehicle for doing something good in the world is NOT Fg/Fd, only bad can come from that group and their chaos and lack of direction and lack of truth.

You yourself are unable to face simple truths. You are living inside a lie. It's not even a complex lie, it's a stupid lie that only mentally deficient people would fall for.

We have pity for you Juna, but not for the reasons you might want us to have pity for you for.

Royal Dragon

11-29-2006, 09:56 AM

Hpw does Li support himself?

Juna

11-29-2006, 10:43 AM

Hpw does Li support himself?

Not make money from Falun Gong practitioners.

David Jamieson

11-29-2006, 10:58 AM

you continue lying and libeling, not good for youself.
Every time you libel, a huge piece of bad karma goes to you, that is the punishment of the universe, but when you realize the truth, maybe it is too late for your real life, I feel pity for you.

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/85/

Good is Rewarded, Evil Provokes Retribution

Juna, now you're just lying to save face for petes sake.

you posted the link to the booklet, and that's what's in it. Did you even read the thing? It's ridiculous and full of all sorts of hogwash.

David Jamieson

11-29-2006, 11:00 AM

Not make money from Falun Gong practitioners.

Im calling shenanigans on you.

Li was a farmer who subsisted barely on typical wages of chinese.

Now he's an expat living more than comfortably in new york.

so he doesn't amke any money off his scam? lol.
I think you are naive Juna and the only bad karma in here is yours for trying to spread this absolute crap around.

Royal Dragon

11-29-2006, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Juna
Not make money from Falun Gong practitioners.

Reply]
Ok, if he does not make money off of Faulin Gong, how *Does* he derive his income?

Juna

11-29-2006, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Juna
Not make money from Falun Gong practitioners.

Reply]
Ok, if he does not make money off of Faulin Gong, how *Does* he derive his income?

Mr. Li has written some books, do you think the author of a book should be paid?

But Mr. Li puts all his books on the websites, and every one can download the books freely.

KC Elbows

11-29-2006, 01:28 PM

A few years back, I did a research paper on cults on the internet. It was after I no longer spent much time on the chung moo thing, and, though time consuming, it was very interesting.

Between the chung moo folk and the dianetics folk, and many other groups, in the last twenty years there sprouted these sort of post cult societies; the longer these societies had persisted the more they tended toward normalcy when lacking a central authority, and the more resistant to a central authority. Anyway, not directly related, so I'll get to my point.

Between the dianetics folk I spoke with and the chung moo, there was a common theme. True believers would post against detractors, get embroiled into arguments they weren't prepared to follow, and stop posting.

Actual officers of the cult organizations, who tended to be people who believed in the authority of their position even more than the so-called benefits of their organization, often took responsibility to play PR for the cult online, would smear detractors, used arguments based on platitudes to superiority and presumed mental weakness of any detractors, and language that was whatever cult speak their flock would understand.

Since these officers tend to be forced(by coercion or compulsion) to post long term, they learn to dodge argument, because they are ill equiped to counter it.
Eventually, they realize their refusal to actually speak with others comes off poorly, so they are forced to change handles a lot.

Anyway, this was based on thirty conversations with people, all of whom posted online in support of their organization before leaving it. Without exception, those who held responsibility within their respective cult posted like I described above. Those with enough authority forced the job on an underling, or succesfully argued that the task was a waste of time. All the rest actually communicated, experienced frustration with logical inconsistencies in their own beliefs, and quit posting, in almost every case leaving the cult some time later.

Aside from differences in respective cult-speak, the overall experience appeared to be similar. It should be noted that I'm not tying quitting these cults to posting online: obviously, those I spoke with were not random, but a group of people who posted and who quit, so I am not suggesting that the internet is a magic cure all.

So remember, whenever you argue with a cultist, you may not actually be arguing with a true believer. The best way for their handlers to beat you is to simply goad you into a frenzy that their flock will percieve as weak. The best way to beat them is to remain fallible, but consistantly less fallible than their handlers. This is not difficult.

As for the cultists paying the karmic toll for the cult leader, not the case. Ultimately, the cult leader grows old, and the difference between his or her claims and the reality of it grow with their age. This disparity guarantees that the cult leader can not appear fallible, and so they must compartmentalize their existence, controlling who sees what, and who sees the cult leader himself. Limiting contact to only those who are most faithful DESPITE the differences between the claims and the reality, the cult leader becomes dependent on two types of people, the fanatics and the ruthlessly power hungry, to be his interface between himself and his flock.

From there, if he simply has them run everything, he risks losing power to them. So now, he must pit them against one another any way possible, while placating those who simply want power or money who are too sly to trick. He'll probably use their rank to achieve control. This means, within the organization, his only contact are those who he lies to and those who lie to him, until it is unlikely there is a clear difference between the two groups for the leader.

Among his family, the cult leader has the same problem. They will have been raised and included in the cult mythology, but will have seen far more of the real human conduct of the so-called divine leader. Respect will not be a commonality in such an environment. Add to that having a narcissist for a father, and one can see the problem.

In a cult, as in Dante's hell, the being with the least chance of escape and the most wretched existence is the leader.

Royal Dragon

11-29-2006, 01:59 PM

Mr. Li has written some books, do you think the author of a book should be paid?

Reply]
I dont see why not.

But Mr. Li puts all his books on the websites, and every one can download the books freely.

Reply]
Umm Ok, that is really nice of him.

Now, back to my question, how does Li sustain himself? What, or how does he draw income to afford his place of living, Heat, electricity. What about food? all these things cost money. How does he pay for the nescessities of life?

Juna

11-30-2006, 07:41 AM

Now, back to my question, how does Li sustain himself? What, or how does he draw income to afford his place of living, Heat, electricity. What about food? all these things cost money. How does he pay for the nescessities of life?

Since Mr Li has been paid some money for his books, can he use the money to pay all the heat, electricity......?

bodhitree

11-30-2006, 08:32 AM

Mr. Li is a ****sexual prostitute for circus clowns

Royal Dragon

11-30-2006, 09:06 AM

Since Mr Li has been paid some money for his books, can he use the money to pay all the heat, electricity......?

Reply]
Yup, he sure can!

Of course "Some" money will only pay "Some" bills. How does he continue to suport himself for the duration? His books are free online, right? How can he make money if his books are free. Even online, he would have to pay a hosting service. Giving away Free books will COST him plenty. How does he afford that in addition to his regular bills?

What does he do to generate a regular income?

Juna

11-30-2006, 10:23 AM

[I] His books are free online, right? How can he make money if his books are free.

Every one can download the books online, but many people perfer to read a real book, so they buy books from the bookstores.

Royal Dragon

11-30-2006, 10:31 AM

Every one can download the books online, but many people perfer to read a real book, so they buy books from the bookstores.

By the way, do you know how popular Master. Li's books are?

The books have translated to all the main languages.

Do you think a popular writer has no money to pay bills?

Reply]
So, he has a vested intrest in cultivateing his flock, so he has a good base in which to sell his book....

Ultimately, Faulin Gong is a marketing sceme gone crazy.....

Royal Dragon

11-30-2006, 11:03 AM

**Coughcoughmarketingscemecoughcough*

Royal Dragon

11-30-2006, 11:07 AM

I bet the number of Faulin Gong practitioners is not accurate. I bet he's going by book sales. He has no way of knowing how many actually practice or follow his teachings.

I have "Dianetics" by L Ron Hubbard, but I am in no way a "Scientologist".

I bet they count me as such though, because I have thier book.

Juna

11-30-2006, 11:50 AM

I bet the number of Faulin Gong practitioners is not accurate.

Sorry, you bet wrongly.

The nember was published by ccp before the persecution.

Royal Dragon

11-30-2006, 01:51 PM

I am much more powerful than Li. He cannot harm me, and neither can his Gods.

golden arhat

12-01-2006, 02:55 AM

why does every one side with me and dj and others
why does no one who visits this thread side with u ?

maybe ......our arguments are better and based in reality
(reality being the key word here)

enjoy delusion
u post more than anyone

the near empty can rattles the most

remember that

Juna

12-01-2006, 04:06 AM

I am much more powerful than Li. He cannot harm me, and neither can his Gods.

Mr. Li will harm nobody, he has great compassion to every living being.

Royal Dragon

12-01-2006, 05:56 AM

The true nature of the universe is just as wicked, brutal and evil as it is compassionate, loveing and generous.

Showing opposition to something our hearts deem disengenuouse is very much part of the universal nature. Standing up and opposing dishonesty, manipulation, and those who promote delusional belifes is part of the natural universe.

If no on had stood up against hitler, where would we all be right now?

All it takes for Evil to succees is for good men to do nothing.......

Li is so full of Bull **** it's not even funny. The very existence of Faulin tarnishes the good Qigong methods that it steals from.

bodhitree

12-01-2006, 07:04 AM

That person whose name is bodhitree, You are insulting yourself.

tru dat
at least I'm not brainwashed and arguing with a bunch of people,insisting that my cult isn't really a cult and that my alien informed leader is right about everything when he really orally services sweaty old clowns.

Juna

12-01-2006, 10:10 AM

If no on had stood up against hitler, where would we all be right now?

All it takes for Evil to succees is for good men to do nothing....... .

If you really a good man, have you done anything the stop the evil of ccp, it is much more evil than Nazi.

David Jamieson

12-01-2006, 10:13 AM

juna-

can you cite your source on that article please?

Juna

12-01-2006, 10:21 AM

juna-

can you cite your source on that article please?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/211,111,,1.html

You can find more articles about the evil atrocity of ccp there.

golden arhat

12-04-2006, 06:34 AM

u not goin to answer my question again juna ?

il repeat myself
why does no one side with u and everyone side with me, dj, royal dragon to name a few

and the nazis are easily the most evil government ever to exist
the ccp by and large has helped china to progress and modernise even with all the bad stuff they have done they are still the single reason china has progressed the way it has

oh yeah bodhitree U RULE !!!

Juna

12-04-2006, 10:12 AM

and the nazis are easily the most evil government ever to exist
the ccp by and large has helped china to progress and modernise even with all the bad stuff they have done they are still the single reason china has progressed the way it has

Sorry, you are mislead by propaganda

The CCP Sacrifices Economic Development

Taking Credit for the Achievements of People’s Hard Work

The CCP’s claim to legitimacy lies in the economic development over the past 20 some years. In reality, however, such development was gradually achieved by the Chinese people after the fetters of the CCP were slightly relaxed and, therefore, has nothing to do with the CCP’s own merit. The CCP has, however, claimed this economic development as its own achievement, asking people to be grateful for it, as if none of these developments would have taken place without the CCP. We all know, in reality, that many non-Communist countries achieved faster economic growth a long time ago.

The winners of Olympic gold medals are required to thank the Party. The Party did not hesitate to use the contrived image of a “great nation of sports” to eulogize itself. China suffered a great deal in the SARS epidemic, but People's Daily reported that China defeated the virus “relying on the Party's basic theory, basic line, basic principle, and basic experience.” The launching of China’s spaceship Shenzhou-V was accomplished by the professionals of astronautic science and technology, but the CCP used it as evidence to prove that only the CCP could lead the Chinese people to enter the rank of powerful countries in the world. As for China’s hosting of the 2008 Olympic Games, what was in reality an “olive branch” given by Western countries to encourage China to improve its human rights, the CCP uses to enhance its claims to legitimacy and to provide a pretext for suppressing the Chinese people. China’s “great market potential,” which is sought after by foreign investors, stems from the capacity for consumption of China’s population of 1.3 billion. The CCP usurps credit for this potential, and turns it into a keen weapon used to coerce Western society into cooperating with the CCP’s rule.

The CCP attributes anything bad to reactionary forces and the ulterior motives of individuals, while crediting everything good to the Party leadership. The CCP will make use of every single achievement to make its claim to legitimacy more attractive. Even the wrongdoing that the CCP commits can be turned into something “good” to serve its purposes. For example, when the truth about the rampant spread of AIDS could no longer be covered up, the CCP suddenly created a new identity. It carefully mobilized its propaganda machine, utilizing everyone from well-known actors to the Party’s general secretary, in order to portray the prime culprit, the CCP, as a blessing for patients, a destroyer of AIDS, and a challenger to disease. In dealing with such a serious life-and-death issue, all the CCP could think of was how to use the issue to glorify itself. Only as vicious a schemer as the CCP is capable of such ruthless behavior as brazenly or underhandedly taking credit and utterly disregarding human life.

Economic Disadvantage Caused by Shortsighted Behaviors

Facing a serious “crisis of legitimacy,” the CCP carried out the policies of reform and opening up in the 1980s in order to maintain its rule. Its eagerness for quick success has placed China at a disadvantage, termed by economists as the “curse of the latecomer.”

The concept of “curse of the latecomer”, or “latecomer advantage” as some other scholars call it, refers to the fact that underdeveloped countries, which set out late for development, can imitate the developed countries in many aspects. The imitation can take two forms: imitating the social system, or imitating the technological and industrial models. Imitating a social system is usually difficult, since system reform would endanger the vested interests of some social or political groups. Thus, underdeveloped countries are inclined to imitate developed countries’ technologies. Although technological imitation can generate short-term economic growth, it may result in many hidden risks or even failure in long-term development.

It is precisely the “curse of the latecomer,” a path to failure, that the CCP has followed. Over the past two decades, China’s “technological imitation” has led to some achievements, which have been taken by the CCP to its own advantage in order to prove its legitimacy and continue to resist political reform that would undermine the CCP’s own interests. Thus, the long-term interests of the nation have been sacrificed.

A Painful Cost for the CCP’s Economic Development

While the CCP constantly brags about its economic advancement, in reality, China’s economy today ranks lower in the world than during the Qianlong’s reign (1711-1799) in the Qing Dynasty. During the Qianlong period, China’s GDP accounted for 51 percent of the world’s total. When Dr. Sun Yat-sen founded the Republic of China (Kuomintang or KMT period) in 1911, China’s GDP accounted for 27 percent of the world’s total. By 1923, the percentage dropped, but still was as high as 12 percent. In 1949, when the CCP took control, the percentage was 5.7, but in 2003, China’s GDP was less than 4 percent of the world’s total. In contrast to the economic decline during the KMT period that was caused by several decades of war, the continuing economic decline during the CCP’s reign occurred during peaceful times.

Today, in order to legitimize its power, the CCP is eager for quick successes and instant benefits. The crippled economic reform that the CCP launched to safeguard its interests has cost the country dearly. The rapid economic growth in the past 20 years is, to a large extent, built on the excessive use or even waste of resources, and has been gained at the cost of environmental destruction. A considerable portion of China’s GDP is achieved by sacrificing the opportunities of future generations. In 2003, China contributed less than four percent to the world economy, but its consumption of steel, cement and other materials amounted to one third of the total global consumption. [3]

From the 1980s to the end of the 1990s, desertification in China increased from a little over 1000 to 2460 square kilometers (386 to 950 square miles). The per capita arable land also decreased from about two mu in 1980 to 1.43 mu in 2003 [4]. The widespread upsurge of land enclosure for development has led China to lose 100 million mu of arable land in just a few years time. However, only 43 percent of the confiscated land is actually used. Currently, the total amount of wastewater discharge is 43.95 billion tons, exceeding the environmental capacity by 82 percent. In the seven major river systems, 40.9 percent of the water is not suitable for drinking by humans or livestock. Seventy-five percent of the lakes are polluted so as to produce various degrees of eutrophication. [5] The conflicts between man and nature in China have never been as intense as they are today. Neither China nor the world can withstand such unhealthy growth. Deluded by the superficial splendor of high-rises and mansions, people are unaware of the impending ecological crisis. Once the time comes for nature to exact its toll on human beings, however, it will bring disastrous consequences to the Chinese nation.

In comparison, since abandoning communism, Russia has carried out economic and political reforms at the same time. After experiencing a short period of agony, it has embarked on a rapid development. From 1999 to 2003, Russia’s GDP increased by a total of 29.9 percent. The living standard of its residents has significantly improved. The Western business circles have begun not only to discuss the “Russian economic phenomenon,” but have also begun to invest in Russia, the new hotspot, on a large scale. Russia’s ranking among the most attractive nations for investment has jumped from 17th in 2002 to 8th in 2003, becoming one of the world’s top ten most popular nations for investment for the first time.

Even India, a country that, to most Chinese, is poverty-stricken and full of ethnic conflicts, has enjoyed a significantly expedited development and has achieved an economic growth rate of seven to eight percent per year since its economic reforms in 1991. India has a relatively complete legal system in a market economy, a healthy financial system, a well-developed democratic system, and a stable public mentality. The international community has recognized India as a country of great development potential.

On the other hand, the CCP only engages in economic reform without political reform. The false appearance of an economy that flourishes in the short run has hindered the natural “evolution of social systems.” It is this incomplete reform that has caused an increasing imbalance in the Chinese society and sharpened social conflicts. The financial gains achieved by the people are not protected by stable social systems. Furthermore, in the process of privatizing the state-owned properties, the CCP’s power-holders have utilized their positions to fill their own pockets.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/4-12-30/25242.html

David Jamieson

12-04-2006, 02:43 PM

I think that if nothing else, it is clear that despite juna telling us we have rigid minds, it is Juna who really has the problem with a rigid mind.

Juna, the best response to criticism is honesty, not evasion or perpetuated propaganda from your seemingly single source which is of course grossly biased.

well, you're not selling anyone on the fg bs wagon. Least of all me. In fact, you have inspired me to speak out against your organization whenever the opportunity presents itself.

count on it.

tug

12-04-2006, 10:45 PM

Sweet Jebus!

I hate to drop in here, even though being of the same collective mind with most on this forum, but Juna, are you ever going to give an honest or intelligent personal opinion on this subject?

The reason I ask is because I have exhausted my patience, reading page after page of editorial bullsh!te you have posted (which I can find online myself, given the proper motivation).

I hereby (at the risk of being ostracized) lay down the gauntlet -

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER THAT HAS NOT ALREADY BEEN SAID BY OTHERS AND NOT YOURSELF?

I want to know. Whaddaya got??

TuG.

Juna

12-05-2006, 05:29 AM

Juna, the best response to criticism is honesty, not evasion or perpetuated propaganda from your seemingly single source which is of course grossly biased.

.

Which single sentence of the article is not true?

David Jamieson

12-05-2006, 05:42 AM

Which single sentence of the article is not true?

You constantly repeat slanders and libels, do you call that honesty?

No Juna, you are the only one spreading lies and deceptions on behalf of your freaky leader here. Using mindless cut and paste, failing to answer direct questions, avoiding answering direct questions and continuing to cut and paste even more drivel on top of the rest.

Truth is best served without the side order or main entree of Bull ****. But I undertstand that you simply do NOT understand this because your mind has been perverted through association with these people and this group that is leading you down the path.

You cann't see it even when it is hitting you like a sledge hammer.
I would encourage you to actually go back through this thread and try to cut through the fog yuou are in and see the questions and responses given by everyone.

No one will support your falun gong lies, Li Hongzhis Lie and we all do not support communism. You cannot evade your own sins by pointing at someone elses.

fg/fd is rotten at the core.

Do not point your finger out at that from which you were born. Fg/and ccp are on and the same in modality. It is sad, but you people are no less the monster you claim they are.

Besides, we aren't talking about the PRC government, we are talking to you as a person and about your being hopelessly locked into a cult of personality that you are incapable of understanding.

someone has to literally, physically drag you away from it and deprogram you at this point it is obvious. You will die in service to a lie and a deception otherwise.

golden arhat

12-05-2006, 07:40 AM

ok fine seeing as u still do not want to answer my question i will ask YET AGAIN
and if anyone else wants to chime in with their own answer thats fine

WHY DOES EVERYONE SIDE WITH OUR ARGUMENT AND NO ONE WITH YOURS !?!?!

just answer the question

oh yeah and i havnt been handed any propaganda by the ccp i live in a western country that means that if i waws brainwashed i would be brainwashed with our own ideologies not the ccp's so where u are basing this is just ludicris

and when we say u r brainwashed we are libelling (apparently)
but when u say i am brainwashed thats just fine is it ?

u are truly deluded

golden arhat

12-05-2006, 07:49 AM

and as for your previous copy and paste drivel

who paid for the space shuttle ..... the ccp
who pays for the coaches and the equipment to train their sportsmen ?.....the ccp
who pays for construction and organises it ? .....the ccp
who funds and organises agriculture ? .......the ccp
who builds and repairs roads and cities?........ the ccp
who most of the time manages to feed and cloth the 1.3 billion people .....THE CCP

yes they have made mistakes

but they are by no means evil

comparing them to the nazis is impossible

Juna

12-05-2006, 10:33 AM

WHY DOES EVERYONE SIDE WITH OUR ARGUMENT AND NO ONE WITH YOURS !?!?!

just answer the question

Worldwide Support
[12/3/2006-12/3/2006]

Germany: Board of Appeals of the German Parliament Requests German Government to Battle Human Rights on Behalf of Chinese Falun Gong Practitioners [12/3/2006]
[11/26/2006-12/2/2006]

Austria: MPs Concerned with CCP Crime of Live Organ Harvesting (Photos) [12/1/2006]
Japan: Former Member of the House of Representatives Supports Falun Gong Rally in Shizuoka County (Photos) [12/1/2006]
Irish Senator: Does Economic Gain Justify Torture and Oppression? [11/29/2006]
Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister of Canada: Talking About Human Rights Won't Harm Commerce and Trade (Photos) [11/27/2006]
Deputy Leader of the Australian Labor Party Expresses Concern over Human Rights Abuses in China [11/27/2006]
Australia: Deputy Labor Leader Concerned Over Human Rights of Chinese Falun Gong Practitioners (Photo) [11/26/2006]
[11/19/2006-11/25/2006]

UK: Mayor of Cambridge Compliments Falun Gong Practitioners on their Contribution to the Community (Photos) [11/24/2006]
[11/12/2006-11/18/2006]

Taiwan: Government Information Office Issues a News Release Urging the CCP to Stop Harvesting Organs from Falun Gong Practitioners [11/12/2006]
[11/5/2006-11/11/2006]

Amnesty International Recommends Canadian Government Put Human Rights at the Center of Canada's Relationship with China [11/10/2006]
Taiwan: Kaohsiung City Council Passes Motion Condemning CCP Crimes of Live Organ Harvesting (Photo) [11/10/2006]
Canadian Officials Express Concern Over China's Human Rights Violations (Photo) [11/8/2006]
Members of European Parliament Raise Question about Organ Harvesting Against Falun Gong Practitioners [11/5/2006]
[10/29/2006-11/4/2006]

UN Special Rapporteurs on Human Rights Send Urgent Appeal to Singapore Government (Photo) [11/3/2006]
Taiwan: Committee to be Established to Stop CCP's Live Organ Removal [10/30/2006]
UK 2006 Human Rights Report Critical of Regime in China [10/30/2006]
[10/22/2006-10/28/2006]

Canadian Government Takes Action against Organ Harvesting Atrocities, New Democratic Party Leader Shows Concern (Photos) [10/27/2006]
Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong in China (CIPFG) Plans to Investigate in China [10/26/2006]
Australian State Premier: Persecution of Falun Gong Is Against the Values Respected in the 21st Century (Photo) [10/26/2006]
Australian Senator Barlett: Freedom is a Universal Human Value that we Should be Promoting at All Times (Photo) [10/25/2006]
Taiwan: County and City Council Resolutions Condemn Organ Harvesting in China (Photos) [10/25/2006]
Australian Community Representative Sister Jane Keogh: Continue to Work for Justice (Photo) [10/25/2006]
Australia: Parliament Members Give Speeches at Rally to Support Falun Gong and Condemn CCP Organ Harvesing in front of Parliament House (Photos) [10/24/2006]
Korea: All Circles Deeply Concerned about the Chinese Communist Party Organ Stealing Organs from Living People (Photos) [10/24/2006]
The European Commission Responds Regarding Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China [10/22/2006]
[10/15/2006-10/21/2006]

Taiwan: Taitung County Council Passes Resolution Condemning CCP for Live Organ Harvesting (Photos) [10/20/2006]
Taiwan: High Ranking Government Officials Are Concerned about the CCP Organ Harvesting (Photo) [10/17/2006]
California: City Council Member Calls for an End to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) Atrocity of Excising Organs from Living Practitioners (Photo) [10/17/2006]
Taiwan Mainland Affairs Council Chairman Meets With Authors of Independent Organ Harvesting Report (Photo) [10/16/2006]
Taiwanese Vice President Plans to Investigate the Allegation of CCP's Organ Harvesting and Take Corresponding Actions [10/16/2006]
Taiwan: Legislative Council Urges Organ Transplantation Profession To Be Transparent and To Not Become Accomplice to the CCP's Organ Stealing (Photos) [10/16/2006]
Taiwan: Taichung City Council Resolution Condemns Organ Harvesting in China [10/16/2006]
Taiwan: Judicial Reform Foundation Supports CIPFG Investigation of Persecution of Falun Gong (Photos) [10/15/2006]
[10/8/2006-10/14/2006]

Sound of Hope: Investigator Advises International Community to Boycott Olympic Games if Persecution Continues [10/13/2006]
UK Independence Party and Liberal Democrat Groups Respond to Organ Harvesting in China [10/13/2006]
A French Mayor: "What you are Defending is Also What We are Safeguarding" (Photo) [10/11/2006]
Bill Proposed in Taiwan Legislature Would Allocate Funds for Educating Public about Organ Harvesting in China (Photos) [10/9/2006]
Famous French Singer: "I support you with all my heart" (Photo) [10/9/2006]
Canadian Member of Parliament: Withdrawals from CCP Are the Solution for China (Photos) [10/9/2006]
California: Union City Issues Proclamation Condemning Any Form of Persecution of Falun Gong Practitioners in China [10/9/2006]
US Congresswoman Susan Davis Appalled by Recent Allegations of Removing the Organs of Living Human Beings without Consent in China [10/8/2006]
Taiwan Cross Party Legislators Initialize Bill to Investigate the Chinese Communist Party's Live Organ Harvesting (Photo) [10/8/2006]
[10/1/2006-10/7/2006]

Chairman of the US Congressional Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations Condemns the CCP's Live Organ Harvesting (Photo) [10/7/2006]
Canada: Canadian Citizens Condemn the Chinese Communist Party’s Harvesting of Organs from Living Falun Gong Practitioners (Photos) [10/4/2006]
Canadian Government Cools Down Relationship with China; Foreign Affairs Minister Denounces the CCP's Human Rights Record (Photos) [10/3/2006]
Canada: Mr. Kilgour Publicly Condemns the CCP Harvesting of Organs from Falun Gong Practitioners (Photos) [10/3/2006]
Rabbi Reuven Bulka: The West Should Stage a Wholesale Boycott Against the Beijing Olympics (Photo) [10/2/2006]
"Murder for Profit - Made in China": Speech by Brian McAdam on Parliament Hill (Photo) [10/2/2006]
Canadian Minister of Foreign Affairs Criticizes Human Rights in China (Photo) [10/1/2006]
Kilgour Speech on Parliament Hill: "The International Community Should Take Actions to Stop Communist Crimes" (Photo) [10/1/2006]
Germany: Widespread Support for Falun Gong and Condemnation of the Chinese Communist Regime's Persecution [10/1/2006]
Canada: Winnipeg Resolution Condemns Chinese Communist Regime for Harvesting Organs from Falun Gong Practitioners [10/1/2006]
[9/24/2006-9/30/2006]

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/30/

These righteous voices from the world have answered.

Juna

12-05-2006, 10:35 AM

oh yeah and i havnt been handed any propaganda by the ccp i live in a western country that means that if i waws brainwashed i would be brainwashed with our own ideologies not the ccp's so where u are basing this is just ludicris

You have been cheated by the media enfluenced, cheated or controled by ccp, although they are in western.

Juna

12-05-2006, 10:51 AM

and as for your previous copy and paste drivel

who paid for the space shuttle ..... the ccp
who pays for the coaches and the equipment to train their sportsmen ?.....the ccp
who pays for construction and organises it ? .....the ccp
who funds and organises agriculture ? .......the ccp
who builds and repairs roads and cities?........ the ccp
who most of the time manages to feed and cloth the 1.3 billion people .....THE CCP

Where does the ccp's money come from, it does not produce products, it only produce lies and fears, it controls people's mind.

ccp forcedly deprive Chinese people's resources.

The government is not ccp! ccp kidnaps the Chinese government.

golden arhat

12-06-2006, 01:17 AM

i meant on here moron as far as i've seen no one who has visited this thread has agreed with u thus far

lol ur only friend is copy and paste

Juna

12-12-2006, 06:46 AM

There are still many righteous persons in the world.

The following is an address presented by former Canadian cabinet minister, the Hon. David Kilgour on Dec. 7, 2006, at Amnesty International Headquarters, Ottawa.

Recently, I was attempting to raise legislator awareness about the organ snatching nightmare faced by many Falun Gong practitioners in China (The Matas-Kilgour report is available in 17 languages at organharvestinvestigation.net .

We arrived at a national parliament in Europe, expecting to meet an all-party MP group, only to find that the MP entrusted to invite others had at the last moment decided not to do so. His stated reason was that his caucus is faith-based and Falun Gong is a different religion from his own.

In all of the 26 countries David Matas and I have now visited separately or together on this issue since our report came out, I have never heard a Falun Gong practitioner speak other than positively about other spiritual communities. Which religion, moreover, cannot identify with the Falun Gong core principles of "truth, compassion and forbearance"? The inner serenity and non-violence its practitioners have demonstrated in the face of beatings, imprisonments, torture and murder across China since July, 1999 are strikingly reminiscent of what early Christians faced with Roman despots.

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-12-9/49114.html

golden arhat

12-12-2006, 07:12 AM

so now ur comparing fg to christianity ?

oh i can see now ur definitley not a cult NO .....NEVER :rolleyes:

Juna

12-12-2006, 11:21 AM

Queensland's two major organ transplant hospitals have banned training Chinese surgeons because of concerns that China takes organs from executed prisoners.

Health Minister Stephen Robertson revealed the move in a letter tabled in parliament this week in response to a petition supporting the Falun Gong spiritual movement.

The Falun Gong, which has about 100 million practitioners worldwide, has accused the Chinese regime of harvesting organs from thousands of members executed over the past seven years.

There also have been claims of live organ removal from people in detention centres and hospitals.

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-12-5/48969.html

Good will be rewarded.

Royal Dragon

12-12-2006, 11:55 AM

There seems to be a huge number of practitioners of FG. How is it that it has grown so fast, and so large since 1992?

Juna

12-12-2006, 01:58 PM

There seems to be a huge number of practitioners of FG. How is it that it has grown so fast, and so large since 1992?

Great benefit, spread mouth to mouth, and heart to heart.

Juna

12-12-2006, 02:04 PM

Those who want to know what is real art, here:

http://wonders.ntdtv.com/

golden arhat

12-12-2006, 03:11 PM

u avoided my last post aswell
wow juna thats impressive

yes anybody who wants to know what true pseudo science religion cult is click on that link

scholar

12-12-2006, 03:52 PM

so now ur comparing fg to christianity ?

Actually, Li Hongzhi claims to be the greatest teacher who ever lived, in fact he claims to be a god, and that Jesus, buddha and Lao Tzu were all at a much lower level than he is at personally. Besides being patently ridiculuous, it just shows what level of chutzpah the cowardly Li shows.

I say chutzpah and cowardly because he talks real big in interviews, but when the CCP came knocking he immediately left all of his followers in China far behind. Those followers have been and are being tortured and killed, while the coward lives in luxury in a nice Long Island mansion. One would think the greatest god in the universe would have the ability to protect his followers? Or if he doesn't want to protect his followers, why doesn't he explain to them why he lets the CCP imprison them and harvest their organs? Nice guy...

jethro

12-12-2006, 03:56 PM

u avoided my last post aswell

Most likely, he will now quote you and copy and paste a bunch of crap. It is obvious what you should do, just don't respond to this dope.

golden arhat

12-13-2006, 04:10 AM

can i see where li hongzhi says this is it an interview ?
can i get a link to it ?

juna know this i will do all in my power to dismantle fg from now on
and i will do all i can to save u from yourself
this is the true path

Juna

12-13-2006, 05:42 AM

, but when the CCP came knocking he immediately left all of his followers in China far behind. ...

Mr. Li imigrated to USA in 1996. Persecution began in 1999.

golden arhat

12-13-2006, 12:21 PM

even so shouldnt li try and help all those suffering fg ppl or do something productive
like homing homless ppl or charitable stuff like that
as far as i can see he lives in wealth while others live in poverty now if he preaches benevolence then surely he should practise benevolence
and if he did that would be all over your websites but he doesnt soes he

he sits in his penthouse chortling to himself about how dumb you all are for buying into his shi-t
and how rich he is and how easy it all was

scholar

12-13-2006, 12:41 PM

Thanks for responding to what I said, sort of. At least your inaccurate insults to me aren't just another cut and paste sermon, so you get some points for effort.

One of Li's followers in CCP (there were many) warned him the things that he was claiming were going to get him into trouble with the police and he left China. That it took the police another two years to crack down on FLG's political protests doesn't disguise that Li fled for his life.

Which gets us back to my question, if Li is as divine and powerful and all knowing as he says he is, why was he afraid? Why didn't he warn his followers? Why doesn't he now save them with his divine rectification? Because he made it all up out of misunderstood philosophy.

There is no system in Falungong for spiritual advancement, the only "higher truth" Li possesses is that of the incompetent charlatan. He has proven nothing, all we hear is talk. Where are the miracles from the living buddha Li? Why doesn't he rescue his follwers? He is too busy with his smug empire of western acolytes to care about his original followers, apparently.

It boils down to: you provide no proof. You haven't actually, meaningfully addressed a single objection to Falungong or Li Hongzhi on this message board, not one. So your report card is: many incredible supernatural claims and exactly zero substantiation. Without providing at least some evidence that FLG isn't just another loopy alien suicide cult, you really shouldn't bother. :D

Juna

12-14-2006, 04:27 AM

Support the good, the kind. And that is good for oneself.

Juna

12-14-2006, 05:03 AM

One of Li's followers in CCP (there were many) warned him the things that he was claiming were going to get him into trouble with the police and he left China. :D

Your imagimation.

Royal Dragon

12-14-2006, 07:00 AM

The first pic is a Picture, of a picture. It's a reflection of the flash where there is a slight bend in the picture.

In the second, that is the Flash reflecting off the morning fog you dolt!

Hishaam

12-14-2006, 07:29 AM

I have one comment when i meet the type of people like our friend Juna, it is no wonder that humanity doesn't learn from its past mistakes, some people are good at capitalizing on the low self-esteem and lack of independant thought of others. Actually there are great business opportunities if one has no conscience nowadays.

I honsestly hope you'll get yourself back to reality Juna before it's too late.

bodhitree

12-14-2006, 07:52 AM

Juna=one brainwashed fool 1
Juna= one clown 2
Juna= internet warrior who has never convinced anyone of anything 3

golden arhat

12-14-2006, 08:55 AM

look juna yet another person who disagrees with u

and those pictures are just tricks of the light
anyone could tell u that oh but no theyre not theyre auras or whatever get a grip
i bet u didnt see that light anywhere outside of pictures

u have just proved to everyone what an idiot u are

and as for jesus thats debateable as most people in the world dont believe jesus was the son of god at the most they believe he was a prophet

buddha didnt have thepowers to save anyone he was a buddah not a god

your shifu thinks of himself as a god and god can do whatever he likes if he is one (look at the whole old testament and u will see many examples of god doing whatever he wants to serve whatever he wants e.g. saving the israelites from the egyptians by crashing the red sea on their armies why doesnt li do the same ?)
also by replying like that u make yourself look like u actually believe that li is some sort of god which is one and the same as being an idiot

WAKE THE FUK UP!!!

TaiXu

12-14-2006, 12:02 PM

Hopefully this will help clear up some things

Evidence of Li Hongzhi’s claims:
Before Falun Gong was separated from the Chinese Institute of Qi Gong Research they(various scientists) would perform experiments on different Qi Gong masters to see how much energy they possessed and could be emitted. He was supposed to have “high level gong.”

The claim that only Li Hongzhi can create Falun is incorrect. There are only a small handful of people in the world who can. When Li introduced his teachings they were called Falun Gong. After the groups main book Zhuan Falun was released they could only cultivate to roughly Arhat practice and then renamed themselves to Falun Dafa. When the book was released it was a huge stir among the community of cultivators. It addressed many questions that other Qi Gong masters couldn’t answer. It became really popular and the style of writing fits very well with traditional Chinese. But before Li Hongzhi spread the practice to the public he had a few hand picked disciples practice it for a few years to see how their energy, moral conduct, and overall character would develop. The story goes that most or all of them succeeded in practice and achieved “high levels.” Li HongZhi himself was taught from other masters of Qi Gong which is why his book is organized toward those who already know about Qi Gong. His “Falun Master” told him that not to pass Faluns onto other people as they would not deserve it nor meet the requirements of the practice (originally called Falun Xiulian Dafa). When he made several reforms to the practice was when he finally allowed the average person to know about the practice.

http://www.trinity.edu/rnadeau/Chinese%20Religions/Li%20Hongzhi.htm
http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/lecture1.html
http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/flg_2001_2.htm

Royal Dragon

12-14-2006, 12:13 PM

most of that just sounds dumb....

TaiXu

12-14-2006, 12:17 PM

Is Falun Dafa a cult or is the CCP?

Well… from what I have seen and heard I would say that the CCP is more cult-like than Falun Dafa. If you ever studied Mao’s Communism or met a “reformed Maoist” it becomes obvious of their reverent behavior. If you get a chance to go to China, don’t go to any churches or religious buildings without a tour guide as you can get yourself in a lot of trouble :-\ (Don’t be like me). I know a few people who go at least once a year to do Christian mission work. They’ve been lucky for the most part, but if they get caught they’ll get put into a prison for violating a lot of laws. Also, it is illegal to criticize the government. If you ever lived through the Great Cultural revolution you would know what it would be like if you told a communist you practiced Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, or even Christianity they would probley beat you and throw you in jail for bourgeoisie behavior. Anything religious or things like cultivation were highly criticized. Many practices of Kung Fu were allowed to survive but many were cast out since they mixed it with Taoism or Buddhism. So religion is very taboo in China. There is still a lot of propaganda in China. For years the great leap forward was lied about. No one knew that there were people dying out in the fields of hunger as everyone in large cities were told that it was a huge success. None of my family members were apart of the Red Guard so we didn’t leave for the farms. My friend from Hong Kong, I think some of his family went. Anyway, it is not uncommon for the government to lie about killing people, torture, rape, they do what they want. You don’t usually talk about it though. You keep your mouth shut and say things like “Jiang always trys so hard to make China a great nation!” Even if in your mind you think he is next to the devil. If you live in the South-East Asia there are a lot of cults there and weird religions. There are much worse down there than the worst Falun Gong rumors. If a Falun Dafa person gets caught they will beat him and throw him into a “rehab center” or prison. A lot of times its legal to beat, rape, or kill a practitioner if you know one as long as they get turned in. You may even get a reward for it. I think its really weird that the CCP wants them so much though. I mean Taoism, Buddhism, and Christianity is more of a threat than Falun Gong on a political level.

Falun Dafa being a cult? Well, it seems to me that a lot of the practitioners who just start become like zealots. They can’t get enough of the book. Not all of them are that way, but some of them are. Some of them (because their higher moral character raised up) they would talk down to people. Most of the practitioners that I’ve met only care about “xinxing”(heart nature). Doesn’t matter if they’re at the movies or a conference they only care whether they are truly good people. In China you always hear about a Falun Gong guy killing his family and then commits suicide or a few people who set themselves on fire, but it isn’t true. I tried to find some reports of it and they don't have any evidence of it. Sometimes its just something in the newspaper or on TV. Everything is heavily monitored so you don’t have the same freedoms that you have in the US or Canada.

I heard that Li Hongzhi is on the top 10 most powerful men in Asia. Among cultivators, that’s laughable. Cultivators should have nothing to do with politics or ordinary people’s affairs. He is also one of the richest. He hasn’t asked any practitioners for any money though. I think that would be a huge deal. Its true everything to practice is free which is rare. A lot of those cults in the southeast wouldn’t give you even a yuan if you were starving and begging. I asked a friend of mine about it and she said that something like this is in a lecture of his.

I have a few friends who practice and they don’t seem weird or cult-like. They do seem really overly concerned about certain things though. I had a friend who practiced Falun Gong for a year then up and quit. He went back to practicing martial arts, but went to a different school. It was Gojushu-ryu (I think). He quit because it was too hard to do, he didn’t see any immediate results, and there were things he didn’t accept (he never told me what). The worst things I've ever heard a Falun Dafa practioner do is white-lies, smoking/drinking, and masturbate. If thats the worst of them, then I don't care how many there are. They can be compared to a contemporary Chinese Buddhist with higher conviction. Falun Gong for the most part reminds me of a flavored form of Buddhism, Taoism, and Qi Gong.

Aliens. Falun practitioners believe in them.
Supernatural powers. Falun practitioners believe in them.
Gods, Buddhas, Taos. Falun practitioners believe in them.
Anything can happen. Don’t believe it. They think everything is based on the Fa or Tao.

Even if Li Hongzhi is a fraud, his principles aren’t false. I’ve studied a lot of practices and I found it strange that someone summed up so many practices with just three words. Someone thought about the essence of Qi Gong for a long time, but I don’t know if it was Li Hongzhi or one of his masters who just told him. I examined the overall philosophy with a critical eye for a while and I couldn’t find a flaw in the essential philosophy (Zhen-Shan-Ren). Now whether their practitioners really live up to it I'm skeptical, but I could say the samething about a lot of Buddhists and Christians.

golden arhat

12-14-2006, 12:48 PM

i have a suspicion that u are actually juna in disguise

but then ur too intelligent to be him

all cults are different so cult like behaviour cant be classified

i believe that aliens exist somewhere in the universe however i dont believe that they control the world !!!

i dont go around copying and pasting drivel and then claiming tricks of the light are demonstrations of true power in pictures

falun is bad ......pure and simple
ccp is also bad
but they are better than the previous imperial regime
u think they didnt lie to ppl back then ?
u think there werent famines back then ?
of course there were

ccp has alot of bad points and they may be even worse than fg
but that doesnt make fg good

sometimes right isnt the opposite of wrong

ccp is bad but over all they are righteous with what theyve done with china

TaiXu

12-14-2006, 01:47 PM

I'm not too sure on the whole of FG either. Of all the ones I've met they come in three "flavors."
1. The solitary practitioners
2. The contemporary
3. The zealots

It seems like the zealots always give the rest of the group a bad name, but you can say the same thing about any religion.

Well, lets define what makes a cult.
First we need a charismatic leader. They have that.
They need to force people to practice. They don't have that.
They need to have a hidden agenda like... the apocalypse, aliens coming to take them away so they can become like them, etc. Eh, they have mixed messages on that. They don't really have hidden agendas. From what I've seen is they just want to be good people and practice in peace.
A cult needs to draw in money and/or possessions. They forbid that.
A cult wants to have political power over others. Li Hongzhi sort of has that, but the practitioners don't. If he went back on what he said then he would instantly lose a lot of practioners.

They have some of the characteristics. I wish I had my book on cults here.

CCP is bad news.
From what I've studied on recent history. Stalin was the worst, then Hitler, then Jiang Zemin. Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler killed Jews. Hitler... well, killed Jews. Jiang is sly. He has more people coving his anus than a swarm of flies covering a horses. The only reason they haven't charged him of crimes is that if he goes down a lot of other people will go down with him.

I would rather have FG in charge of China than the CCP. Let me tell you what it used to be like in China. When the mongols were in charge it irritated a lot of Chinese. Most Chinese didn't want the mongols anywhere in China. When the we finally got China back we had to fight eachother over Nationalism and Communism and fighting the Japanese. My family didn't want Communism to take over China as the CCP wanted to destroy all traditional values. So my family left right before the CCP took over and left for America. When the CCP did took over a lot of problems arose from passing on certain powers. Mao created many "programs" for brainwashing the people. It united them, but at the sametime seperated them. When I found out that some of my distant family took up Communism and even turned their back on the other families it made me sad that they used to be people who made traditionalism. They said they were "paving the road to the future." Everyone took up Maoism. I am glad that my parents didn't have to deal with the Great Cultural Revolution. It was the equivilant to the witch hunts in America and Europe. Many teachers and people that others didn't like were accused of being Nationalists or Traditionalists. If you had a religion then you had to leave it or run away. Many of the monks went to Thailand and Tibet. There were many monks in the south.

When an American politician messes up he will try to sneak his way out, but when he gets caught he clenches his fist and admits it. In China, that won't usually happen until the next President is chosen and then he will put those who committed crimes on trial. When you are Chinese you have your brothers back. Through thick and thin. So when one Chinese politician messes up, the next one will make sure that nothing goes wrong. So it takes a huge series of mistakes for Chinese politicians to get a punishment. Then everyone goes down. I grew up in America, but I find it odd that people divorce their parents, abandon their children, and give up their friends like garbage.

Say me and you were in the CCP and you did something that I didn't like. Even if I don't like it I won't turn you in. I won't say anything to anyone unless they're part of our clique and even then we don't talk about it a lot unless it comes to the surface. Then we have to come up with a way to cover it up or find a scapegoat. I guess it is like the mob?

Mao and the CCP did do some for China, but it was only the economy. China doesn't have the values that it had in the past. Everyone has become really open to bad things. I heard in the past we wouldn't have put up with it. They're not absolute evil, just really close.

golden arhat

12-14-2006, 03:05 PM

i like u
ur objective
and not a retard like juna
we have differing opinions but thats ok
i happen to think fg are much worse than u say
they are liars and make up things about their practise
and dont do anything really productive to help the world
so there claimse of truth and benevolence are blatant lies

TaiXu

12-14-2006, 03:48 PM

From a Falun Dafa practitioner's perspective a good deed is when you tolerate others or do nice things.

I can't remember what province (in China) it was, but an old man build a road 30 miles long because he practiced. There were some things about working extra in factories for free. A lot of state workers get a limited pay despite how much time they put in. The factory would lose a lot of money and many factories get shut down like this. My friend Carol told me how bad some workers are in those factories. She would work hard for 9 hours while others would work lazily for 3, but be there the same time. Anyway, the Chinese practitioners would put in extra time and money to prevent the factory to close.(This was during the early times of Falun Dafa) Later, those same practioners (reluctantly) accepted higher positions in the factories and many within the CCP. This about when the power struggle begins. But the practioners did help avert catastrophy for the economy.

A lot of American practioners do things like community service volunteer work, but the Chinese ones argue about it because Falun Dafa says not to pursue doing good deeds and follow the course of nature.

I haven't seen a lot of practioners bring great happiness to the world, but they have brought peace and stability.

How great is Falun Gong? I don't know. I don't know how high some of their practitioners are. I mean, if they did reach right fruit or attain the tao they aren't gonna just show up and say, "Hey, I attained the Tao! And you can too with Zhuan Falun" like some lame infomertial. So I can't say. I do think they've gone beyond the level of qi, but I don't know about "going beyond the three realms." Its just like the agnostics perspective. I also believe gods, buddhas, and taos exist, but I've never met one in my life.

I guess my question is have you ever met an evil falun dafa practioner?

golden arhat

12-14-2006, 04:27 PM

i havnt met him but his name is li hongzhi

and as for agnostics they believe knowledge of the divine is impossible

if they wanted to help the world they would do charity

if itsall about letting nature take its course then why do they go out marching and protesting ?
by that logic its as if the ccp killing people and organ harvesting and such is ok because its meant to happen and its just another part of the universe
if they went beyond the level of chi then we would see real results but the fact is that they havnt u would see signs if they had
i have met some genuine qi gong people and experienced it for myself and they are getting better results than any fg practitioner as far a s ican see
im surprised juna hasnt chimed in

r u sure u r not juna in disguise ?

golden arhat

12-14-2006, 04:33 PM

and as for the world being peaceful and stable
haveu watched the news lately ?(and no i dont mean FOX news or any other drivel like that it doesnt qualify as news)
the world is anything bt stable

bodhitree

12-15-2006, 05:22 AM

Falun Dafa IS a cult .

Bingo, right on, why are you fgs posting on a martial arts forum?

Royal Dragon

12-15-2006, 06:11 AM

I still think Faulin Dafa is an ineffective method for fighting. There are much better ways to get good fighting skills. :D

bodhitree

12-15-2006, 06:15 AM

I guess the ccp beating them toughens them up. I guess its iron shirt qigong, the ccp is just helping them test it out. Not too effective from what their stupid biased, wrong, twisted, and phony newspaper says.

Royal Dragon

12-15-2006, 07:39 AM

Can we spell P*H*O*T*O**S*H*O*P*?

bodhitree

12-15-2006, 07:49 AM

?

No, your own imagination

God you are such a f ucking stupid a ss. Why do you post on a martial arts forum? Nothing better to do with your time?

Juna

12-15-2006, 12:49 PM

Can we spell P*H*O*T*O**S*H*O*P*?

Do you know we believe in Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance?

Juna

12-15-2006, 12:57 PM

by that logic its as if the ccp killing people and organ harvesting and such is ok because its meant to happen and its just another part of the universe

No, ccp is the evilest force in this universe.

TaiXu

12-15-2006, 05:39 PM

A "proper" agnostic neither admits nor denies the existence of supernatural forces. I believe they exist in the ways like solar flares, black holes, and other natural phenomena. I call it supernatural when one of those level of forces comes into contact with a significantly lower level.

"Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge. Agnosticism in both cases involves some form of skepticism. Demographic research services[1] may use combinations of agnostic, atheist, and secular to describe non-religious people." -wikipedia.org

For FG marching and protesting... well, at least they're more peaceful than the college students would be. In China, whenever things go bad, the students would heavily complain about things and start protests and riots. This is what the CCP refers to as "dangerous thoughts." So they try to stop you from being an intellectual. They want you to be smart in there, but not smart enough to discover that you are no more than a slave to them. That was a reason for the Great Cultural Revolution. Even Taoists should fight for their way of life, I don't see why FG should be any different. Although a FG isn't as aggressive. They don't seem to have that kind of fighting spirit. They fight in the most aggressively passive methods that I've seen. Not to be compared to passive-aggressive :-p

When Hitler killed the jews that was legal. If the CCP makes it legal to kill FG practioners, should that be right? I guess the CCP has had their way with every other religion/practice in China, why would FG be so different? I do think it is wrong though.

For comparing one practice to another. Falun Dafa doesn't believe in practicing Qi. They belive in cultivating gong with the spinning of the Falun and improving xinxing(moral character literally translated as "heart/mind nature"). Lets take a true disciple of the Great Tao and compare him to an average Falun Dafa practitioner. Who's has more energy? Of course the true disciple of the Tao does. I'm against the Taoist religion because of this issue. When there are 10 disciples of a Taoist master only 1 will be chosen to be a true disciple. All the others will be taught superficial stuff. In Falun Dafa he tells all his disciples the same thing, but he says "Cultivation is up to the individual, while gong is up to the Master." Now a true disciple of the Tao has generally went through many incarnations and has suffered so much through those lives. So when he finally begins his cultivation he is a great disciple. His gong starts off at a high level, his moral character is great, and his sense of dedication is unwavering. While Falun Dafa disciples come from different ways of life, not all of them have been so good through their lives, but they have the wish to cultivate. For just this thought it is very precious. While the Taoist practitioner has great virtue, the other practitioner may not be of such nobility. But as a Taoist pracitioner who has been led by a great master he should not come into contact with the human environment as it can make many desires and emotions arise. I've seen this many times. When they were out in the mountains or living by the river they were really good cultivators. Their morals were great, it was very admirable. But when they came to society and became big qi gong masters they fell down like rocks in a river. A FG practitoner was never taught that way. He says that the human society is a good thing. As it can help produce better results. Because there are so many things that can allure your mind or try and perturb it in human society so they cultivate very well in this aspect. Living among ordinary people is hard for cultivation so they make quick advancements. Though a fg practioner never gets to show his abilities or may even get to know that he has them since he lives among ordinary people. The Taoist who is away from all those people will probley not be restrained in such a manner. A lot of practices are this way.

TaiXu

12-15-2006, 05:42 PM

There is another situation. There are a few important Chinese proverbs you should know. "A died pig does not fear boiling water" and "There are deities three inches above one's head"
For many practitioners, not just FG, become pessimistic about human society and the material world. This is especially true among Chinese farmers. To be old and useless is a sin in China. Often times, when a person becomes old he will think he has wasted his life on the pursuits of wasteful things. Pursuing fame, money, women, and his own personal interests. And now he is left with little or nothing. As a farmer you will usually realize at one point or another in your life that you might have well been born dead as you serve no purpose other than feeding others. This makes you even more pessimistic. So maybe at your old age you become sick and western medicine can't fix you, so you go see a chinese doctor and he can't do anything either. Reluctantly he goes to see a qi gong master and he gets his illness fixed. He really enjoys qi gong and even after a few months he can even go back to the fields to work. He even enjoys work now. Also because he practices he understands his meaning in life. Now lets say this person instead of finding a qi gong master asks around to his family to see what they say. One tells him "Try FG, I my aunt's cousin had cancer and now she's well." So the guy buys the book for only a few yuan (A yuan isn't much compared to American currentcy a person usually makes maybe 30 yuan a month if they are a farmer, at least it used to be about 3 years ago (its really rude to ask how much people make)). And indeed its he's cured. So, its easy for people in China to accept this stuff, but somethings are hard to accept. Because of egalitarianism people believe that two people or many people are equal. So if one person got cured from falun gong how come this other guy died? PEOPLE ARE NOT EQUAL. Every man should know that. Would you care whether you were arranged to marry a beautiful, smart, funny, and wealthy woman or the opposite? Or even arranged to marry a man? They think you have a two arms, two legs, a head on your shoulders and so do I, but how come you're better than me? Moving on, when a person begins to practice or even thinks of practice there will be deities who will see this wish and will want to help him. They can't cross over to Earth for a few different reasons. If they casually reveal themselves and teach him the Tao, he will have nothing to realize. He will instantly know with such a person showing a variety of great abilities. There are a few special cases when it is allowed. So they(deities) will try and arrange for him to obtain the Fa or Tao.

From my perspective great people get great results. If you suffered all the worst things in the world and through away all of your interests and desires, what deity wouldn't give you whatever you wanted?

When a practitioner goes beyond the level of qi he opens his great heavenly circuit. If you were among ordinary people you couldn't really tell unless you had good virtues and then you would only feel light or maybe rock back and forth. I can't stand it when one side feels lighter than the other because it throughs off my balance. When a person goes beyond the level of qi he doesn't have illnesses anymore, but he still gets weird symptoms. I remember some people having body cleansing and would vommit blood, or deficate blood. Or the worse was when it was really dark or black. I would get headaches for days at a time, but afterwards I would feel great. Often times they might have the sensation that their third eye was opening or they could open up their field and know what other people were feeling/thinking. I don't recommend opening your field to others as you can invite their things to your body. It might hinder your practice.

TaiXu

12-15-2006, 05:43 PM

If Li Hongzhi is bad, at least he prepares his disciples for true cultivation. My old practice of qi gong, I was only taught one poem. It was really hard. My teacher was several states away. I got to see her twice, but I frequently talked to her on the phone. I eventually mastered the system, but it was really rough. It seems when people practice FG they become good people over night. This is for the majority of pracitioners, but some people aren't demanding of themselves and do small misdeeds and its reflected harshly since they're supposed to be models of moral behavior. The other is when they act so harsh that they don't seem rational. They take things to an extreme. It usually won't be like something disruptive to others, but more to themselves such as reflecting negative thoughts, fighting emotion, etc. ("Take self interest as a grain of salt") so they would really not care. People would ask her what she wants and she says nothing. It became a small problem when organizing a party.

My grandparents watch CNN and FOX news :-p
I usually watch it with them. There supposedly 100million FG practioners, while the CCP claims there are only 10m. Either way they make up for less than 1/1000 of the worlds population. (In theory) if they did 1000 good deeds a day they could make a large noticeable change in 1 year. If they did it in unison. Will it happen, probley not, but they try day by day. They keep stability within their circle (for the most part), but practicing any true method of xiulian or qi gong or even religion you will run into difficulties. If you don't how will you improve? They've done some. Oh, I found out in the early days Li Hongzhi himself would heal people. There have even been some practitioners who did it for him. I'm trying to find out if anyone in my family or family friends might have gone. I heard it was a really big deal though. There was supposed to be a huge line.

Posting FG on kungfu magazin forum? Hmm... I think many martial arts systems are connected to qi gong, xiulian, and religions. Falun Gong doesn't really have much to do with martial arts though. I had the chance to briefly read what Li had to say about it and I know a FG practioner who does MA also. He's pretty good. He says he won't practice the ways that are connected to cultivation though. I would be kinda surprised if FG got turned into a martial art, but I heard Shaolin got started similarly. I want to see what kind of abilities a FG pracitioner has. I mean the great practioners. They're supposed to be light on their feet and a few have supernatural abilities.

No, I'm not Juna in disguise. I would like to think I'm a bit more... flexible. But I do admire that he sticks to his guns on it.

TaiXu

12-15-2006, 06:03 PM

No, ccp is the evilest force in this universe, and it is commiting the evilest atrocity, to secure a normal universe, the evilest will be weeded out, if sby supports ccp, he will face serious punishment in the future, because he supports the evilest.

Juna, I think the CCP is bad in that they interfere with other people's business. They even show demonic behavior for attacking old people and little kids who dont even stand a chance in a fight. FG practitioners won't usually even fight back. It doesn't make sense why they(CCP) care so much about it. They aren't that much of a threat. Maybe they're crazy? The organ harvesting has always been a dirty business, but I guess they're not above it. And forcing people to think like them has never been above them. The worst force in the universe? Possibly. Just possibly. I mean I can't think of anything worse off the top of my head. I can't say historically they are the worst, but for now I can't think of something worse. Sure there's serial killers, rapists, child molesters, but they all aren't in cahoots. The CCP is organized, methodical, and ruthless. I've read you're Nine commentaries and it has some very interesting things to say.

if itsall about letting nature take its course then why do they go out marching and protesting ?
by that logic its as if the ccp killing people and organ harvesting and such is ok because its meant to happen and its just another part of the universe

I also don't think that what golden_arhat said is what was meant. I don't he supports killing FG practioners even though he isn't too fond of the practice. If he supported the CCP he probley be fighting more for the CCP. I think I could probley say thats true for most everyone else on this forum topic.

And I don't think you can dictate his future at this moment. And if you saw it with your third eye then why would you disclose a heavenly secret so willingly? Maybe I've told them too much? But I haven't said anything to the extent that reaches beyond the beginning of real cultivation. I don't lecture. I inform. I can empathize with Falun Dafa since I practice a form of Xiulian, but some issues may need to tread upon like egg shells.

:About the pictures:
They(golden_arhat,bodhi tree, and royal dragon) don't believe Falun Dafa practitoners are so honest or necessarily so smart.

I can give a real example of what they are trying to say:
I remember one time my friends(we were all practicing a good method of practice) and I had a picture of us. When we had the picture developed it looked like my hand was glowing red. It was really cool looking. For a while (short short while) we thought it might have been energy, but then we wanted to reproduce the image. We analyzed it for only 5 minutes then we realized it was the laser mouse was shooting off the side and happened to reflect strangely. We couldn't get the exact image, but we came close.

I don't think Falun Dafa practitioners would use photoshop to show that they were great or something, but if they used a flash during the fog or maybe if the light reflected off of some incense it might produce a similar effect. Or maybe their energy does just look like that.

My only wish is that people practice upright. I don't care if its Falun Gong, Taoism, Buddhism, or whatever. As long as they value virtue and practice with their heart. After all "you can't punch your way into a woman's heart," and "you can't succeed with your mind full of worldly matters."

Golden_Arhat, I don't get what you mean his name is Li Hongzhi? There's lots of guys name Li in China :-p

I've mastered many practices. It is hard. It is hard beyond words. Those Falun Dafa practitioners I've seen, I have never seen people make such (stable) drastic improvements. My father is a born again Christian and he made huge changes in his life, but they weren't stable. But I've seen people practice Dafa for years and they stuck with their morals. And they always do unless they quit the practice or let their qing get the best of them. There are people who get obvious better results with other practices. Other schools may be better at producing more physical results. Science is better than any religion I've seen at getting material results, but religion always get the best of science in the way that it moves a person's heart toward good. Different schools have different goals. Even if you practice martial arts there are different goals. Some people want to be fast, strong, enduring, clever, or have the most techniques. Some people within martial arts don't even care how skilled they are at fighting an opponent and only want to know the Tao or Fa. They know if they attain the Tao then no one will be able to beat them. At the same time they can get other results as well. Falun Dafa's goal is to reach kaigong. Be the best person you can be. Reach your original true self, right? Though a FG practitioner won't admit, but they fight to in their own way. All true cultivators "must fight demons." They must abolish their desires, emotions, and overcome wickedness. They probley won't even talk about it. But I guess thats a different form of martial.

Juna

12-16-2006, 03:33 AM

And I don't think you can dictate his future at this moment. And if you saw it with your third eye then why would you disclose a heavenly secret so willingly? Maybe I've told them too much? But I haven't said anything to the extent that reaches beyond the beginning of real cultivation.

I did not try to or cannot dictate his future, because people's thoughts can change, and the universe has great benevolence, but those who libeled a righteous practice have created huge karma for themseves, and those stand at the side of ccp will be punished by the universe, and good will be rewarded, evil will be punished, this is the principle of the universe.

I donot hate anyone, instead I hope everyone can have a good future, but that really depond on oneself.

David Jamieson

12-16-2006, 07:37 AM

good will be rewarded, evil will be punished, this is the principle of the universe.

I am here to help people understand the truth about Falun Gong, I donot hate anyone, instead I hope everyone can have a good future, but that really depond on oneself.

good reward and evil punished is not what I would put into the category of "principles of the universe".

First of all, good and evil are mere perceptions that we draw by observation, experience and intuitive reaction to a given situation.

In reality, and in keeping with the principles of the universe, there is no such thing as good or evil. Mere definitions to help us constrain ourselves to a reality that is more or less accepted by all.

You contribute nothing to the truth of falun gong juna. you are merely shilling and promoting it as something, I don't know what, but something. You don't support it with your silence to legitimate questions, in fact, you make it look probably even worse than it is.

We are trying to help you understand taht the leader and pretense of FG is all wrong from the start. I and other have expressed why and have provided reems of articles and evidenfce that is "true" and out of th words of the organizations leaders and supporters themselves.

It is in these words were I have made the observation that FG is in fact a cult that is helmed by a megalomanical egoiste named li hongzhi who prattles on about nonsense and tries to convince people who are less educated or more stupid than himself that he is some sort of divine figure instead of what he actually is which is a sad reflection of L.Ron Hubbard who realized he could exploit and leech off the hopes and wishes of desperate people.

Karma is arguable in regards to it's existance, but the sheer and obvious corruption of the Li Hongzhi and his organization from the top down is quite clear.

I don't even think it is good chi kung. Not an organized and tested system that can deliver any specific results. Nonsense and fluff and It slanders itself by virtue of it's own existance.

Nobody hates you juna. I don't hate you and I don't think FG is worthy of hate. I think it is stupiud and dangerous and counter productive to peoples lives because of the clearly skewed beliefs it adheres to not to mention all the weird ass attempts to gain recognition and for what? It's all empty nonsense with no real meaning and you make a lot more politicians look stupider than they already are by conning them into thinking that you are some huge movement supported by all chinese and all people.

It is not true and people will wake up to fg nonsense in the same way they can see through the fallicy of a great many things.

Juna

12-16-2006, 10:04 AM

First of all, good and evil are mere perceptions that we draw by observation, experience and intuitive reaction to a given situation. .

That is what you think, but that is nothing.

scholar

12-17-2006, 08:04 AM

The nature of the universe--to be true, good and endure, is the sole standard to determine if one is good or bad.

That's a load of crap, cultish doubletalk that substitutes Li Hongzhi's magic spell of "zhen shan ren" for ethical behaviour. Saying the same magic spell over and over and over is a lot easier than actually working on yourself, isn't it?

The way to tell if one is good or bad is by the effects one's actions have on oneself and the people around them. "By their fruits shall ye know them." Anything else is meaningless.

golden arhat

12-28-2006, 07:50 AM

well ..............where:confused:

Yao Sing

12-28-2006, 07:59 AM

It's falun and it can't get back up.

scholar

12-28-2006, 08:05 AM

The "Wheel of the Law" rolled away...

MasterKiller

12-28-2006, 08:12 AM

moderator PWND!

BruceSteveRoy

12-28-2006, 10:22 AM

yao sing that is about the funniest response humanly possible. excellent work my friend.

GeneChing

12-28-2006, 10:34 AM

...and then deleted. We were receiving complaints from all sides on that one. It wasn't making progress. Of course, we have other long threads that aren't making progress, but members aren't complaining so much about them. They seem content to bicker and that's fine. That's what the forum is for. The Falun Gong thread was different. All things are impermanent, especially on the web.

David Jamieson

12-28-2006, 10:47 AM

contentment in bickering is an interesting thing about humans revealed much more glaringly through the wonder that is the internet.

I'm glad I got to read the new copy of the leaflet from the fg peeps though. It confirmed the argument against on a lot of levels.

anywho....*walks away whislting*

MasterKiller

12-28-2006, 11:10 AM

All things are impermanent, especially on the web.

I think I'll make that my new signature. :eek:

GeneChing

12-28-2006, 12:15 PM

I think I'll make that my new signature. Oh you're just going to delete it in a few weeks, so what's the point? Promises, all I ever get are promises.... ;)

MasterKiller

12-28-2006, 12:59 PM

Oh you're just going to delete it in a few weeks, so what's the point? You're just going to be dead in a few years, so what's the point of eating dinner tonight? Relish the moment, grasshopper.

lunghushan

12-28-2006, 01:02 PM

Grandma said never argue politics or religion. I think she should just change it to never talk to anybody.

GeneChing

12-28-2006, 01:07 PM

On that note, I think I'll take my lunch break. :)

golden arhat

12-28-2006, 03:02 PM

so does that mean we won ?
whatever im gonna claim the falun gong argument for the "sane" team

SPJ

12-28-2006, 08:44 PM

Grandma said never argue politics or religion. I think she should just change it to never talk to anybody.

Welcome to my family:

My father and my younger bro practice Tibetan Buddhism.

I am Christian and semi/Daoist/Chan Buddhist.

Politics and religions are talked over the dinner table.

After the meals, we move on to something else.

--

:D

SPJ

12-28-2006, 08:46 PM

My point is that.

Despite of all these years, we are still what we believe, none is converted to the other side.

--

:)

lunghushan

12-28-2006, 08:50 PM

My point is that.

Despite of all these years, we are still what we believe, none is converted to the other side.

--

:)

That wouldn't work in my house. My parents aren't talking to me because I suggested that the Christian parables weren't meant to be taken literally. They said I didn't 'respect' their religion.

(Oh, I also suggested the Romans used Christianity for political gain, and most of the New Testament shouldn't be considered divine because it was written by Christ's disciples ... LOL )

I never found out until recently about how seriously my Dad took religion. Scary stuff, that.

David Jamieson

12-29-2006, 06:48 AM

a lot of people go on about being this or that, but in reality, one could question what it is that they are in fact doing.

if one has a religious path, then instead of pointing out the differences between themselves and the rest of the world and getting worried aboutr whether or not others find them credible, instead, it is simply a matter of working towards embodying the principles of your chosen belief.

as far as I know, exclusionism has never been part of christianity, so to shun someone because they choose not to intellectually accept aspects the same as your own is contrary to the overall principles.

the churches and their ways are not exactly the same as what's laid out in the message of the new testament in regards to christianity, hence all the sects and various schisms that occur.

people want to shape religious thought into a vehicle of power gaining and control. That's the real problem with it all. remove that aspect and it will work. many people do indeed remove that aspect from it and find the path they were looking for. It was under the weeds of their own misconception all the time!

golden arhat

12-29-2006, 08:09 AM

BruceSteveRoy

12-29-2006, 08:15 AM

do they not do that with polytheistic religions as well?

David Jamieson

12-29-2006, 08:26 AM

the problem i have with most monotheistic religions is that for the most part none of thir flock actually believe in what they are doing

think about it when u r little ur parents take you to church where you are told that you are a christian
u havnt decided this for yourself
so in reality all you are doing is trying to convince yourself that you believe not actually believing

well, getting baptized and going to church does not by default make you christian.
It is your entry into the community.

Children are incapable of making moralistic and ethical decisions and so the initiative process is the foundation for learning. Obviously the parents want the same connections with the child and so the child can be no other than who s/he is by being with their parents.

It is the parent's responsibility to nurture the child in every aspect and what they have as a belief system will only naturally be transmitted to teh child as well. When the child comes to understanding of what's going on, it is up to them to choose to either continue or find another path or leave a path entirely.

Whatever you are initiated in becomes a matter of choice eventually. If even a modicum of self examination is employed in one's life. Pretty much most of us have a stop and think about what's what and how and where we fit with it. That's life. Letting children choose for themselves would be disasterous.

ibid: lord of the flies :p

golden arhat

12-29-2006, 10:30 AM

its pretty hard to make your own mind up
when u are brought up accepting christianity (or islam or whatever) as fact rather than belief
its hard to make your own mind up with out something else to compare it to

lunghushan

12-29-2006, 01:24 PM

Well if you are to believe history, the religion that people practiced was often times a state religion, and in order to be a member of that state and not be shunned, you had to follow that religion. At least in Christian countries, Greek times, Roman times, etc., there was a state religion.

So there wasn't really a choice, even for adults.

The thing that I don't understand is how most people never examine what they believe and just take it as it is. This is the thing that I do not understand. Most people are raised in a religion and stay in that religion unless there are some outside influences on them otherwise.

The ironic thing is my parents accuse me of not respecting their religion, but I never tried to disrespect it -- I just tried to explain to them why I personally didn't buy into it. If they want to accept those things I have no real problem with that.

I have no problem with kids being brought up in a particular religion except that it seems like at that point they are basically brainwashed for life in most cases.

lunghushan

12-29-2006, 01:39 PM

Anyways I don't think you can really have discussions about religion without most people getting angry or upset. I've only met a few people who could talk things over rationally.

SPJ

12-29-2006, 05:50 PM

religion and culture are 2 separate things.

If you live in a Buddha land/nation, you grew up knowing it culturally. And yet you may not believe in it. There are many buddhist temples in China. Most of them were destroyed during infamous culture revolution from 1966 to 1976. However, some are rebuilt since then. And yet less than 10% of population are actually buddhists in PR China.

Altho everyone would go to a temple one way or the other.

If you live in a Christian land/nation, you may grow up and associate with a church. And yet you may not be a true believer, either.

--

scholar

12-30-2006, 01:00 PM

For me, my researches have gotten me to the point of respecting personal responsibility. A person's religion should be reflected in their lives, and not projected onto others. When a religionist doesn't speak or act the way they say you should, then something is wrong.

In Buddhism they say "How can you argue about how the universe works until you know how you actually work yourself?"

The 10 Commandments are another good example. I don't believe they were meant to be impositions from the outside, but a way that you could tell if you were on the right path. If you were stealing, coveting, murdering, etc., chances are you wouldn't be a pleasant person to be around.

The 1st Commandment (Thou shalt have no other god but God) can be off-putting to people who don't get the idiom the late-bronze-age Moses was using. Martin Luther said "Your God is that which you are most afraid to lose" which is another way of saying that if money, sex, drugs, whatever, is most important in your life, then they are your god. If you are kind enough to forgive and care about the people you deal with, even your enemies, then you are fulfilling the 1st Commandment no matter what "religion" you are.

As time goes on, the original intent of the teachers who founded the great religions is less and less understood, so that unscrupulous types can start to rewrite the rules a little bit here and there to their advantage. Eventually, you get fundamentalists from just about any religion around the world parroting completely misunderstood teachings as "magic spells" and excommunicating, torturing, burning or even crucifying people who call them on it. They have completely replaced a personal ethic of good will with ritual coercive power.

So don't be content with believeing every nutjob who tells you how God will only save members of their sect. Don't even believe me. Everyone has to do this math for themselves. "By their fruits shall ye know them."

AJM

12-31-2006, 01:16 PM

To answer the original question. The thread reached enlightenment, became a Buddi and went to Nirvana.

bodhitree

01-02-2007, 05:10 AM

moderator PWND!

f***in right, that was me.

Juna

01-03-2007, 12:04 PM

The divine beauty of the east is brought to magnificent life in this breathtaking journey into the ancient world of mythical dragons, heavenly beauties, and exhilarating drummers. Featuring an outstanding cast of international vocalists, musicians, and dancers, this is a cross-cultural experience not to be missed

http://shows.ntdtv.com/

Those who are interested in real Chinese culture, this is a great chance.

golden arhat

01-03-2007, 12:15 PM

hahahah we owned your sorry ass juna
hahahahhahahahhahahahahahaah
the wheel of law rolled away
god thats still funny

SPJ

01-03-2007, 07:52 PM

http://shows.ntdtv.com/

Those who are interested in real Chinese culture, this is a great chance.

thanx for posting the link.

as far as faith or belief system, you either have faith or believe in it or dun.

you can not force feed or convince by force or by ways of reasoning or arguing.

other wise it will be a fact and not a religion.

believe it or not. FLG will be accepted in PR China in the future. And that day will come.

---

Juna

01-11-2007, 03:26 AM

believe it or not. FLG will be accepted in PR China in the future. And that day will come.

---

The whole world(include China) will welcome Falun Dafa soon, I am sure of that.

golden arhat

01-11-2007, 10:39 AM

yes everyone will give up their much better taiji and qi gong practises for a a half baked science religion

im sure of that

Juna

01-14-2007, 02:38 AM

HOLLYWOOD―Extraordinarily unique, the Chinese New Year Spectacular is true to its title, transporting audiences through a dazzling cultural journey filled with music, song, and beautifully choreographed dance performances.

Two Spectacular evening shows were performed January 9 and 10 at the Kodak Theatre in Hollywood, California. It was established by New Tang Dynasty Television (NTDTV) in 2004 as a show entitled Chinese New Year Global Gala celebrating the Chinese New Year that is "rich in Chinese culture and expresses the essence of ancient Chinese traditions and values" explains Michael Ye, NTDTV Public Relations Representative, adding that "in the past 3 years audience feedback was that the shows were really wonderful and suggested that the name should be Chinese New Year Spectacular!"

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-1-13/50368.html

great!

SPJ

01-14-2007, 08:33 AM

Just the other day;

there was a new research article saying the fall of the great Tang was due to global warming.

there was a slight rise of temperature and drought.

the farmers may not produce food.

they rose up and Tang fell.

--

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2007/01/global_warming_may_have_brought_down_the_tang_dyna sty_s.php

:eek: :D

scholar

01-16-2007, 08:05 AM

From Wikipedia, a reading of whose article will show the critical thinker what a racist nutjob FLG missionaries are promoting:

*[http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/18/MNGGAG8MO31.DTL Critics and followers of Falun Gong: Adherents find fulfillment, but detractors call movement a cult ([[September 18]], [[2005]])] A San Francisco Chronicle report
* [http://www.rickross.com/groups/falun.html Rick Ross Institute] A extensive set of links to articles critical of FLG
* [http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun249.html San Jose Mercury News article] 2001 news report on how Falun Gong manipulates politicians in the U.S.
* [http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/f/falun/ Steve Hassan’s Freedom of Mind Center], an exit counselor's claims of mind control techniques used by Falun Gong
* [http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=549 Bay Area Reporter: Supes Support “****phobic Cult”] detailed report on SF Resolution 66-06
* [http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2006/02/1724264.php SF Indymedia: “****phobic Mind Control Cult”] discussion on Falun Gong's view on ****sexuality initiated by Samuel Luo; includes extensive user blog comments at the end
* [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/18/MNGGAG8MTA1.DTL&hw=falun+gong&sn=002&sc=447 SF Chronicle: Dissident media linked to Falun Gong] exposes the connection between the Falun Gong and the Epoch Times
* [http://english.people.com.cn/zhuanti/Zhuanti_288.shtml People's Daily excoriates Falun Gong]
* [http://www.intermix.org.uk/news/news_300106_03.asp FLG article and discussion from bi-racial website]
* [http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/opiate_of_the_masses1.html Time Asia's article on Falun Gong] ([[May 10]], [[1999]])
*[http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun176.html Falun Gong Derided as Authoritarian Sect by Anti-Cult Experts (2001)] San Francisco Chronicle Report on "Cults and the Millennnium" conference in Seattle
*[http://www.randi.org/jr/08-03-01.html Commentary About Falun Gong ([[August 3]], [[2001]])] James Randi Educational Foundation
*[http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/rahn_patsy_falungongbeyondtheheadlines_abs.htm The Falun Gong: Beyond the Headlines (2000)] abstract of article by Patsy Rahn available in Cultic Studies Journal, Volume 17, pages 166-186.

golden arhat

01-17-2007, 02:40 AM

i'l be juna
"hmmm i'l ignore all of the above claim they are all liying and copy and paste the same article posted a million times before TWICE then i'l go back to servicing li hong zhi "

jago25_98

05-11-2009, 12:20 PM

I am trying to figure out whether to do Falun Gong or `this dimension` QiGong collection.

I am looking for a comparison, or argument between the 2. Falun concerns me because, after reading and researching Hongzhi says:

(roughly what is said: `Do not practice other QiGong techniques as this could interfere with the falun wheel` `QiGong is elixir cultivation whereas FalunGong is spiritual.` `The spiritual benefits of Falun have a knock on effect to this-life Chi`

I have to decide if Falun Gong is hocum, or whether it's worth doing. It put me off being not able to do standard QiGong but the way the government reacted to it makes it something of note to me.

On the one hand, I have seen evidence to support doing QuGong cultivation.

But on the other hand something that is banned by the Chinese so vigorously gets by attention.

Since the thread was deleted (I never had the chance to read it), where can I see a discussion of the Falun Gong vs QiGong.

David Jamieson

05-11-2009, 01:06 PM

*snip*, where can I see a discussion of the Falun Gong vs QiGong.

Try the kiddies table.

FG is crap and every inch of it has nothing to do with any sort of healthful practice and everything to do with promoting the half-wit Li Hongzhi as a demi-god.

If you look at their pamphlet that they have online at their site, you can see that they have basically lifted their falun gong from other qigongs,.

Li Hongzhi and the Falun Dafa organization are exclusionists, cultural elitists and racists by virtue of what they themselves print.

I would urge you to throughly read their "manual" and see for yourself what a dodgy pack of strangeness they represent and are.

total shyte, through and through.

But wait, there's a bad side too! :p

SPJ

05-11-2009, 02:13 PM

golden arhat

05-11-2009, 04:37 PM

David Jamieson

05-11-2009, 04:41 PM

I have a friend who believes in Fa Lun.

actually, some of the theories are not new.

however, there are many buddhas, and many dogmas or many paths

so fa lun gong is not the only path or way.

--

slap my face, I dun really FLG that well.

but I still like my friend.

--

there are many trees in the woods.

there are many flowers in the garden.

there are many stars in the universe.

my point is that Mr. Li is not the ONLY way.

--

:D;)

I have a friend who believes there are demons following him.
He's mentally unstable, but I still like my friend.
I wouldn't advise him to start a cult though.
My friends belief in demons isn't the ONLY way.

:p

just sayin...

bawang

05-12-2009, 08:00 AM

oh grate master li hong zi, please give me your super powers
he put a magic wheel inside my belly now i can fly and talk to rocks

tactical-nuke

06-07-2011, 07:07 AM

i have heard both good and bad things....

lkfmdc

06-07-2011, 07:24 AM

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3854&d=1181966332

lkfmdc

06-07-2011, 07:24 AM

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3853&d=1181966315

David Jamieson

06-07-2011, 07:46 AM

i have heard both good and bad things....

Founded by Li Hongzhi (read about him here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi))

Probably wikipedia will have the least amount of acid in it...

I personally oppose the group as it is a political group that is about the elevation of Li Hongzhi to some twisted idea of spiritual leader.

Secondly, it's practitioners seem to be dead eyed and quite empty headed and all too willing to tow the line.

I don't think there is anything of spiritual or mental value in the group. they work for the agenda of the organization and it's founder.

You could do better just going to a zendo or a taoist meditation centre or yes, even a Transcendental Meditation centre... or crap, even a buddhist temple with a nun to talk to for advice would be better! :)

lkfmdc

06-07-2011, 08:01 AM

I like this quote from one of the many debunking web sites

The much-publicised and long-standing conflict between the Chinese authorities and Falun Gong is an example of a nasty autocratic regime persecuting a nasty manipulative cult. Falun Gong's leader Li Hongzhi preaches racism, anti-science, space aliens possessing humans, the emotions of plants, the ability to evade gravity and to walk through walls. His word carries absolute authority within the movement, as he is held to be the only person ever to understand the laws of the universe. "Whoever believes Falun dafa is just a health movement is the most worthless of living beings", the cult's web site used to explain.

SPJ

06-07-2011, 08:26 AM

1. qi gong practice is good.

2. rules or great methods of the wheel of the life

believers beware

there are many and many other methods.

3. they are actually a political activist group

banned and outlawed by PR China

---

SPJ

06-07-2011, 08:31 AM

new epoch journal

new tang chinese tv

--

good articles on chinese medicine and health

good articles on military and political analysis inside china

--

they kind of exaggarated how many people leaving the CCP and counting

--

good culture activity including overseas chinese world CMA annual event

--

I wish that it is political free, but it is not.

:D

bawang

06-07-2011, 02:10 PM

its a charity organizatino for organ donation

SPJ

06-07-2011, 05:43 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw2Jz5i4iKs

many and many more people stand by lady ga ga

or follow her.

:)

bawang

06-07-2011, 05:47 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRQS2N3GvDo

SPJ

06-07-2011, 05:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRxyDJVrFA8&feature=related

last one was in paris

this one is in london.

:)

bawang

06-07-2011, 05:51 PM

do you masterbate to it in your minivan

SPJ

06-07-2011, 05:55 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqUzSXOjh7s

this one is on holland or netherlands.

:)

SPJ

06-07-2011, 05:56 PM

do you masterbate to it in your minivan

no, just posting the song that she won world music award with.

if you may win the world attention with something

---

:D

bawang

06-07-2011, 05:56 PM

do u prefer to masterbate to just song or with video

because i cannot do it when i see her huge nose

SPJ

06-07-2011, 06:20 PM

sort of side tracked by your comments.

the popularity of fa lun was due to lack of something to believe in

since leftist maoism was dismantled by deng

jiang as successor continued the path of looking at money, xiang qian kan.

cultural revolution destroyed everything of the "old", the little red book or mao yu lu is the only.

now that the book is wrong, too, what to believe

here comes the fa lun.

---

SPJ

06-07-2011, 06:21 PM

people are always looking for something to follow

just like marylin moroe, maddona, now lady ga ga

---

bawang

06-07-2011, 06:22 PM

there was never any cultural repression taiwan but you taiwanese abandoned old ways and westernized by your own free will.

you are han jian

SPJ

06-07-2011, 06:31 PM

chinese politics

when the students were gathering at tian an men square and former soviet was crumbled

CPC was scared of the wind/wave of change from russia or the east, su dong po in 1989.

russian east waves

at this critical moment, shang hai mayor jiang wrote a pro party and anti student article. he was handpicked by deng as a succesor, when the party is in danger, jiang may see a clear path.

--

the second crisis came when fa lun practitioners gathered, too.

jiang saw the party was in danger again and thus banned fa lun

--

time changed or politics changed again.

when hu/wen took power from jiang, they did not shake hands, which was a ceremonial gesture of passing the guard or on the power

---

so goes the wheel of politics

--

:eek:

SPJ

06-07-2011, 06:34 PM

there was never any cultural repression taiwan but you taiwanese abandoned old ways and westernized by your own free will.

you are han jian

there was a struggle of keeping the old way or adopting the western way especially in education/school system in taiwan.

but from 1966-1976 cultural revolution in china

there was a cultural preservation movement going on in taiwan.

the slogan was using science, ethics, democrasy-- to save chinese culture

---

it is a long post or another discussion.

:)

SPJ

06-07-2011, 06:37 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8iTRy1cwZ4

the speech that set the tone at the time.

:cool:

SPJ

06-07-2011, 06:48 PM

do u prefer to masterbate to just song or with video

because i cannot do it when i see her huge nose

I am more of a song follower then singer follower

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGpOCJKCbi8

stand by me was sung by so many

:D

Hendrik

06-07-2011, 06:52 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8iTRy1cwZ4

the speech that set the tone at the time.

:cool:

Looking backward is so easy... hmmmm.

When I was young I thought everyone was wrong and now I found out I am the one who dont know a thing.

I think to Chiang might want to change the 人心 in his speech to 人性.

without that era we dont have this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUccjqRDo4s

yeshe

06-07-2011, 07:00 PM

yeshe

06-07-2011, 07:02 PM

是不是？。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。

Hendrik

06-07-2011, 07:03 PM

they got a lot of money
A LOT OF MONEY !They have info stands all over the the place here in Flushing Queens NY. they hate thee Chinese government. to bother them I like to sing
"没有共产党就没有新中国"

it is very sad that why they hold on to the hatret. They need to walk their talk and love everyone. if they do that I think the can do lots of good for people.

This is a song for everyone since 1949..

潮起潮落
潮水依舊澎湃
讓我越來越願意不在
到頭來
放開手只剩塵埃
現在才明白
原來我們都是塵埃
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_64sbr16pck

SPJ

06-07-2011, 07:42 PM

they got a lot of money
A LOT OF MONEY !They have info stands all over the the place here in Flushing Queens NY. they hate thee Chinese government. to bother them I like to sing
"没有共产党就没有新中国"

well, over time, the politics will recognise that Mao's 27 years rule was a great mistake and great leap backward.

deng's practical ism saved the day or years.

jiang's conservatism and die hard following or continuing deng's open door policy or capitalism or socialism market economy

hu/wen moderate ism/techo crats ism and kept china door open--

winds of openess in politics started to blow from grassroot up--

--

there are revolutionary leaders, you have movements after movement.

there are reverse engineers.

there are following the beaten path and staying the course leaders.

there are moderate and techocrats or ji shu guan liao leaders.

---

Razaunida

06-08-2011, 09:21 PM

Falun Gong is a cult of generic qi gong with political ambitions.

bawang

06-08-2011, 09:34 PM

falun is pretty cool guy. they set their own children on fire and not afraid anything

Razaunida

06-08-2011, 09:47 PM

I wanted to join because I thought it was like the Rael cult. Cults are great because the hot girls that join can be convinced to do anything.

I try to convince them that I am a Daoist priest and I allow them to be a suckling tigress to drink my super power jing.

I heard of some guys in Hong Kong that did that and thought....modern women like to buy spirituality and get into the kundalini and anything that will make them be sexual and not feel like a skank. This is a good combination to get money and a ****suck without turning into a duck.

SPJ

06-09-2011, 06:19 AM

there are many Buddhas.

there are many dharmas.

there are many qi gongs.

----

David Jamieson

06-09-2011, 06:25 AM

there are many Buddhas.

there are many dharmas.

there are many qi gongs.

----

Much is cryptic
More is convoluted
There are no definitive answers.
You will find what you look for only when you decide that's what you want.

:)

lkfmdc

06-09-2011, 06:41 AM

In addition to typical cult behavior such as isolation and sleep deprivation, Falun Dumbfa is also famous for people who do it waking up in the middle of the night and taking knives to their entire family

Badly done chi kung can cause psycho problems, just so you know

David Jamieson

06-09-2011, 06:52 AM

Badly done chi kung can cause psycho problems, just so you know

Bull****.

the predisposition to insanity preexists any exercises.

that's just mumbojumbo chinese hocus pocus crap.

qigong is good for breath, posture, joint suppleness and maintaining flexibilty and strength.

mawali

06-09-2011, 07:27 AM

Falungong was the shizzle when it came into being and it allowed people off the street to sit down and be comforted by its founder. Like a fuzzy warm feeling of the hypnotic effect of crowds at a gospel clapping event.

Li Hongzi, now dazzled by the Hollywood/Chollywood effect, begann to see he could attract huge so he refused to:
1. Stop paying corporation fees for his organization
2. Refused to register said corporation
3. Scoffed at the partyline
4. Wanted to keep profits to himself

He then began to deify himself with his own views on life then began asking followers to refuse to cooperate with the central government and thus is where we are here today.

Personally, falungong is OK. It is like tai chi chih, naked taiji, etc.
On the objective side, a research study was done and falungong does have the capacity to change cellular immunity (for the positive) if done as a lifestyle aspect.
Exercise also does this depending on the individual affinity of and for the activity at hand.

NOTE:
Keep politics out of qigong and similar activities!

SPJ

06-09-2011, 08:04 AM

bawang

06-09-2011, 08:06 AM

i follow the hawk

lkfmdc

06-09-2011, 08:08 AM

1. there are posts that make some sense

2. there are posts that make no sense

normally I let it go

but this morning, I am wondering, what is the point of posts like those?

--

and can you get all your thoughts into a single post?

--

bawang

06-09-2011, 08:15 AM

i think he has some form of psychosis.

SPJ

06-09-2011, 08:28 AM

1. there are people that believe in no god.

2. there are people that believe in multiple gods

there is a multi denomination church near where I live

they believe that all may come, no matter your god is jesus, buddha or allah--

--

just come and worship your own god.

--

:eek:

my point is that

the world is big enough for non believers and various believers.

if you can imagine a local church with several corners. one corner is for reciting koran and bobbing head, one corner for reciting sutra and hitting wooden fish, one corner is reciting bible and singing or dancing--

if they can do it

what about the rest of the world

it is a peace message and all may live or live and let live

---

:)

bawang

06-09-2011, 08:31 AM

why you type like that? you been in america for 40 years.

wenshu

06-09-2011, 08:46 AM

Bull****.

the predisposition to insanity preexists any exercises.

that's just mumbojumbo chinese hocus pocus crap.

qigong is good for breath, posture, joint suppleness and maintaining flexibilty and strength.

Ironically, this self-healing practice has long been
known not to be completely innocuous. Patients
hospitalized in psychiatric hospitals for qigong-induced
mental disorder have been reported by Chinese
psychiatrists since the 1980s, long before recent
accusations that psychiatry in China has been used to
imprison people who practice Falun Gong. The same
period of increasing market liberalism also witnessed
the proliferation of private clinics, as well as state
hospital centers for helping individuals with qigongrelated
psychosomatic and psychotic disorders. In
the scientific community, controlled phenomenologic,
treatment, and outcome studies have been
published in the past two decades that support the
disease validity of qigong-related mental disorder,2
although there is little doubt that some individuals
could have had prodromal schizophrenia. These
studies were performed during a period when qigong
was not a political issue, as it is today, and was widely
seen as a valuable way of enhancing health that, if
anything, was legitimated by state agencies as a prime
example of indigenous healing practice.
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/30/1/120.pdf

Razaunida

06-09-2011, 08:55 AM

Bull****.

the predisposition to insanity preexists any exercises.

that's just mumbojumbo chinese hocus pocus crap.

qigong is good for breath, posture, joint suppleness and maintaining flexibility and strength.

Double bull****,

You only say that because you don't know very much about it. If you tonify an excess condition is makes things worse. Next time you are angry, get really really *****, let a girl lead you on until you have blue balls and then have her leave.

You will become more irritable. Why? Hormones. Qi gong can effect hormones, done incorrectly its like adding blue balls to frustration. As any man can attest to, this makes you crazy. This isn't Chinese mumbo jumbo, its just how the body works.

Small circle qi gong in the fire cycle when you have liver qi stagnation and heart fire will give you insomnia.

Its not only mental sickness, but physical sickness as well.

What you think of as "Chinese mumbo jumbo" is more advanced than you know.

Likewise using proper qi gong I have seen people who are crazy come down and live normal lives. But perhaps you don't believe that breathing affects mood and exercise improves well being. Perhaps that is Chinese voodoo.

bawang

06-09-2011, 09:05 AM

too intense visulaization in qi gong makes you suddenly extrmely aggressive. it feels like rage and you have no control over it. its part of qi gong psychosis

SimonM

06-09-2011, 09:13 AM

Does anybody have any non-anecdotal evidence of "Qigong induced psychosis"?

I seriously doubt it. That being said plenty of the cultic (rather than occult) practices of the Falun Gong, mentioned in Ross' earlier post are not good for mental health.

bawang

06-09-2011, 09:15 AM

i personally experienced qigong psychosis, and my teacher experienced temporary paralysis in the legs.

SimonM

06-09-2011, 09:18 AM

That would be anecdotal. Non-anecdotal would mean demonstration of a statistically significant effect.

Scott R. Brown

06-09-2011, 09:19 AM

Qi gong can effect hormones, done...

So can exercise and thinking about pleasant or unpleasant things!

This isn't Chinese mumbo jumbo, its just how the body works

Yes, and it works that way whether one does Qi Gong or not!

Small circle qi gong in the fire cycle when you have liver qi stagnation and heart fire will give you insomnia.

So what? So can exercise, worry, or thinking about pleasant or unpleasant things!

Its not only mental sickness, but physical sickness as well.

The mind affects the body. That isn't Qi Gong, it isn't advanced anything, it is merely the way the mind and body are put together.

What you think of as "Chinese mumbo jumbo" is more advanced than you know.

No....it's not! It is simple and not advanced and well known throughout all cultures over the history of man! It isn't special in any way!

Likewise using proper qi gong I have seen people who are crazy come down and live normal lives. But perhaps you don't believe that breathing affects mood and exercise improves well being. Perhaps that is Chinese voodoo.

It isn't that Qi Gong and exercise do not affect the mind and body, it is that they are not all that special in that they can do this. Many other things accomplish the same thing without all the mystical attachments and cultish behavior of practitioners.

bawang

06-09-2011, 09:21 AM

That would be anecdotal. Non-anecdotal would mean demonstration of a statistically significant effect.

then qigong itself is anecdotal, and kung fu is anecdotal.

Scott R. Brown

06-09-2011, 09:22 AM

i personally experienced qigong psychosis, and my teacher experienced temporary paralysis in the legs.

It never occurred to you that you just might be a bit unstable to begin with? :confused:

It has occurred to me!:eek:

Scott R. Brown

06-09-2011, 09:24 AM

then qigong itself is anecdotal, and kung fu is anecdotal.

Maybe Qi Gong is, but Kung Fu is certainly not, because its effects are clearly demonstrable through repeated tests!

Even crappy Kung Fu can be repeatedly demonstrated to be crappy!

Therefore it is NOT anecdotal!

bawang

06-09-2011, 09:24 AM

Even crappy Kung Fu can be repeatedly demonstrated to be crappy!

!

touche
*stroke beard

SimonM

06-09-2011, 09:33 AM

then qigong itself is anecdotal, and kung fu is anecdotal.

Way to go with the non-sequitur. When talking about a specific health effect of a specific activity some sort of non-anecdotal evidence is necessary. The health benefits of Qigong can be observed to be statistically significant, even if the underlying cause of the benefit is physical activity in general.

If the same can not be said for the so-called risks of insanity I'll personally disregard them.

As has been pointed out your story could be as simple as you being predisposed to instability and your sifu throwing his back out, no magic needed.

bawang

06-09-2011, 09:40 AM

i never seen science proving the existance of qi as a mystical force. of course qigong is anecdotal.
traditional teachings about qigong says messing around can fuk you up, and falungong came from the qigong pioneer era when people were experimenting with creating new qigong exercises.

SimonM

06-09-2011, 09:48 AM

I believe you may have deliberately misread what I said.

Razaunida

06-09-2011, 09:48 AM

If you are using breath and brainwave patterns to adapt the human body...that is qi gong. It isn't a question that people all over the world have their own names for it. No one said that it was exclusive to Chinese, but anything that has the power to heal has the power to harm.

David Carradine had his own form of qi gong. He used liver qi (by jerking) and then cut off the window of heaven (his neck) and this caused his Hun and Po to seperate (he died). That isn't mumbo jumbo its a question of terminology, perspective and thought. Do not masturbate while choking yourself or you may die. A lesson we can all appreciate.

Other forms of exercise do not tend to put people in mental states that qi gong does. Certainly other meditative traditions do, but stairmaster....not so much. Aztec running while bleeding yourself and breathing a certain way...probably.

David Jamieson

06-09-2011, 09:48 AM

Double bull****,

You only say that because you don't know very much about it. If you tonify an excess condition is makes things worse. Next time you are angry, get really really *****, let a girl lead you on until you have blue balls and then have her leave.

You will become more irritable. Why? Hormones. Qi gong can effect hormones, done incorrectly its like adding blue balls to frustration. As any man can attest to, this makes you crazy. This isn't Chinese mumbo jumbo, its just how the body works.

Small circle qi gong in the fire cycle when you have liver qi stagnation and heart fire will give you insomnia.

Its not only mental sickness, but physical sickness as well.

What you think of as "Chinese mumbo jumbo" is more advanced than you know.

Likewise using proper qi gong I have seen people who are crazy come down and live normal lives. But perhaps you don't believe that breathing affects mood and exercise improves well being. Perhaps that is Chinese voodoo.
Triple Bull****. lol
YOu drank the kool aid and don't want to admit it and would rather inflate these ridiculous and juvenile ideas about breathing and moving.

what utter rot.

as for chinese psychiatrists...well isn't it fascinating that the qigong sickness coincides with the rise and oppression of falun dumbfa in china?

show me ONE (1) medical case with explanation that leads to "this person went crazy because they were regulating breath with motion as an exercise".

this is what makes hoity toity kung fu people who talk to much look like the bloody idiots they often are. Clutching at straws to try and explain what they are doing because they don't understand the bleeding simplicity of it.

Mind you, this is nothing new in asian martial arts practices. There will always be some butt munch trying to tell you that you cannot understand or cannot master something because of his or her opinion on it. I can think of a couple of guys I've tossed to the floor with this misconception. And I can think of a few more who didn't have the cajones to back up their assertions.

good is good and it's apparent. Bad is even more apparent.

all discipline takes time and practice and involvement. If you haven't reaped any rewards after a few years, yes, you have wasted your time or not directed the correct effort into it.

bawang

06-09-2011, 09:52 AM

actually physical and mental illnesss from qigong exist in traditional teaching.

i read liang shouyus book qigong empowerment and his book described my symptoms, and there was even a exercise to remedy the condition.

Razaunida

06-09-2011, 10:03 AM

Scott R. Brown

06-09-2011, 10:05 AM

Therefore, we can say that work causes suicide!

How do we know this, because the Japanese are the one of the most hard working people in the world and they also have one of the highest suicide rates!

Therefore, work causes suicide!

See, we call that correlation! Correlation is NOT the same thing as cause, but it is one of the most commonly used proofs for false conclusions!

TenTigers

06-09-2011, 10:07 AM

SimonM

06-09-2011, 10:08 AM

Razaunida I will only address this issue once and even that may be too much:

I don't give a ****'s diameter in a high wind what skin colour a person is. It has no bearing on the conversation whatsoever.

Notwithstanding post-modernist anti-rationalism and its tendency to see the scientific method as some sort of colonial threat to the wisdom of other places there are plenty of intelligent and educated people basically anywhere in the world. Anyone who has spent any time in the company of members of the scientific community knows this.

So don't go wandering onto a tangent about race. It's a transparent tactic for avoiding a discussion about whether there is any verifiable evidence of your claims.

Scott R. Brown

06-09-2011, 10:08 AM

You ignorance isn't harming me, but it may harm you. If you don't heed caution because it comes form a non white source thats on you. Poppy**** and all that yeah, yeah, what could the savages know.

I have a family member who has bipolar disorder. Don't tell me about the wonders of psychiatry. It is bull****. 30 years of that garbage and he is finally better after a week with a qualified herbalist who is also working with him teaching him qi gong.

You don't agree? Good, no one cares.

A guy has been bipolar for 30 years and you think that a week with an herbalist is going to fix him? You really ARE an idiot!:eek:

Bipolar is called BI-polar for a reason! They go through times of remission and feeling good only to crash again in the future.

Your ignorance is dangerous to you AND your family member!

SimonM

06-09-2011, 10:09 AM

TenTigers

06-09-2011, 10:10 AM

Razuanita-it would be better to join a traditional wiccan circle. There you can perform the great rite on every esbat and sabbath, with your High Priestess, or in some groups, with any woman who is willing.
Some people join just for this reason.
Wiccan chicks are hawt!
-and they brew their own meade!

TenTigers

06-09-2011, 10:13 AM

A guy has been bipolar for 30 years and you think that a week with an herbalist is going to fix him? You really ARE an idiot!:eek:

Bipolar is called BI-polar for a reason! They go through times of remission and feeling good only to crash again in the future.

Your ignorance is dangerous to you AND your family member!
ah..the herbalist probably gave him St John's Wort and some other herbs that are commonly used for BPD, and taught him how to relax. If someone recognizes that they have a problem, and are willing to work on it, that is half the battle. The problem is when they deny that they are sick, and blame everyone else.

David Jamieson

06-09-2011, 10:15 AM

Not all chi-gung is based on simply coordinated breath and movement.
That is outward movement, inward stillness.
There is also Noi-gung-inward movement, outward stillness.
This uses various types of mental imagery/visualization to connect with the mind and the breath. Depending on the type, it can affect hormonal balance as well.
This is why often, mental illness doesn't show up until puberty, then increses in the twenties, in cycles, as the hormonal balance changes.
Many people walk the fine line between illness and sanity, and simply need some form of trigger to set it off. Sometimes it is emotional trauma.
Various forms of noi-gung can open up ones perceptions and awareness, sometimes too much.
This is called jow faw yup moor.

nei gung is a little of a different journey.

I am still gonna state clearly and emphatically that psychological conditions which are negative pre-exist.

@Razaunida you ever consider the idea of being an outlier? You ever investigate any other possible avenues? Not to mention the fact you make some kind of asshat racist statement about where I may have learned qigong from. laughable :rolleyes:

which of course writes you off as the ignorant one here. so, what can I say about that, you believe what you like, it doesn't make you right.

I'll take truth and reality as my source font. Not some write up by old semi-illiterates. lol or worse, those with deeply vested financial interests in selling you the practice.

as for the rest of the old wives tales, meh.

bawang

06-09-2011, 10:18 AM

why are you such a negative nancy

wenshu

06-09-2011, 10:20 AM

You know what else is anecdotal?

Psychology.

SimonM

06-09-2011, 10:24 AM

I think you mean psychiatry. Lots of good science in psychology but, you are right, Freud was a hack who wouldn't understand the scientific method if it kicked him in the fork and Jung was more a philosopher than any sort of scientist.

Psychiatry and psychology and (may have the term wrong here but here goes...) psychopharmacology are very different disciplines.

wenshu

06-09-2011, 10:31 AM

I'll take truth and reality as my source font.

I see what you did there.

That would be a very funny joke if it weren't so grandiose.

Not some write up by old semi-illiterates.

orly?
Because you're such an esteemed master of language arts?

Hendrik

06-09-2011, 10:31 AM

Various forms of noi-gung can open up ones perceptions and awareness, sometimes too much.
This is called jow faw yup moor.

The issue is not rooted in Open Up or too much.

The issue is know for thousand of years that ---

any internal practice if it is not follow the following keys will lead into problem.

the three core keys of practice are

1, loosing up physical body
2, entering into silence in mind, meaning just know and not intend to do what.
3, following the rythm of the natural. the Qi has its own balance flow, not to mess around with.

The bottom line of all Qigong or internal practice is just

1, loose up the physical so that natural taken over its corse.
2, quiet down the mind to one thought or no thought so that the nervous system taken over running a natural corse.

Even with the moving internal art and not in sitting or standing meditation.

The above 3 keys and two bottom line is the bottom line of bottom line.

in the western sense, this is just the practice of surender one's body and mind to God and awaken the soul. and then the Grace of God ( Qi or prana) fill in and transform one's body and mind. or in the Zen sense, Let Go.

What happen is some Qigong practitioner never have a holisitic instruction and also doesnt attain the Loose and Silence up to a certain level; but jump into trying to manipulate Qi or playing with visualization or mind's operation. since mind is a machine of creation, one creates lots of trouble. also if the body is not loose up to a certain level the body is bias and that cause more bias operating it in high energy.

Not to mention, the qigong practitioner knowing not that all the manipulation act of body and mind is just for the purpose of helping and supporting surrender one's body and mind to awake the soul and let the natural/God take care of all things. That is because mind is just a limited machine which is very narrow and easy confuse. one needs to let the mind goes instead of it becomes a GOD of Control.

So, they thought they can control stuffs, mind over matter.....etc. that get them into the path of playing God and finally trap inside their own mind.

The Shurangama sutra has a volume which describe all sort of side track as above.
if any one interested in doing meditation and knowing all the possible states.

So, to be really simple, the whole concept of Qigong is just LET GO and LET GOD Be. or Surrender.

Different Qigong type, if it is a holistic one is just a way of surrendering with aids from a certain technics. and then let go the technics.

That is not different then prayer. prayer is just surrendering with another type of technics.

Serious stuffs and if remember the above then you are mostly in a proper path. if the person who teaches you Qigong or Noigong doesnt have a view parallel with the above common sense key points in Qigong or Noigon practice. Dont do it.