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magicfist
02-15-2001, 12:59 AM
I have been doing a type of chi gong for over a year called Falun Gong. It has really helped me out a lot in my life, and if anyone is interested I would recommend going to www.falundafa.org (http://www.falundafa.org)
On their website there are books and videos that can be downloaded for free. It combines buddhist and toaist principals with chi gong. I highly recommend it!

origenx
02-15-2001, 01:05 AM
I've looked into FG, and honestly don't know enough about qigong, Buddhism and Taoism to say if ~70% of it is true or false. About ~20% I've heard similar stuff before and can agree with. Another 10% I'm very skeptical about, although I couldn't prove it's wrong.

If you know much about it, perhaps I could bounce my skepticisms off you...

magicfist
02-15-2001, 05:46 PM
I see where your coming from. When I first started, I was extremely skeptical. After doing it myself and then talking to other people, I have completely changed my attitude. If I can help with any questions, please feel free to email me m854agic@aol.com

dwid
02-15-2001, 08:24 PM
Falun gong is a cult, plain and simple.

_________________________________________
The way of the samurai is in desperateness. Ten men or more cannot kill such a man. Common sense will not accomplish great things. Simply become insane and desperate. - Hagakure

cagey_vet
02-15-2001, 09:56 PM
sorry guys...
i have looked into this.
the propaganda spread by the chinese
government is not without some truth.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/falun.html

while i am CERTAINLY not a supporter of
chinese communism, i am not in support of
cults.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun193.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun188.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun176.html

not that the two are related in any way, but:
i have also seen a mpeg clip of
li hongzhi teaching falun gong against
a background that reminds me much of
the graphics that heavens gate cult used to
use frequently.

be careful. chi cultivation is one thing.
cult affiliation is another.

Kung Lek
02-16-2001, 12:22 AM
Hi-

While the falun gong organization may be culty, the chi kung the do is fairly simple and easy to learn.
Overall, the chi kung will not do you any harm but if you go for the "company line" then you are talking about something a bit different.

They do standard chi kung exercises such as Jam Jong (ZhangZhong/ Standing Post), Carry the Moon, Lift the Sky and many other very useful Chi Kung exercises.

They are however a political hot potato and have made many outrageous claims about the powers of Chi Kung in relation to acute illness and indeed it is true that people have refused medical treatment because of membership in the organization and have died from their maladies.

You do not need to be a member of a cult poli/religio group to get benefits from Chi Kung practice which can be found, learned and practiced outside these groups.

peace

Kung Lek

origenx
02-16-2001, 01:49 AM
But this is all primarily lots of hearsay/rhetoric/propaganda/mudslinging. That doesn't impress me. I would like to hear actual factual misconduct or deception, or specific proven errors in the teachings. Anyone?

I've only heard mostly personal attacks on Li or his followers, but little specifically about the actual teachings or exercises. Lets hear about those.

magicfist
02-16-2001, 02:00 AM
I want to say just a couple of things. First of all, I don not think all people should practice falun gong. If you have been doing a type of chi gong, tai chi, or whatever and are happy, then by all means stick with that. I can only speak from my own experience. I practiced falun gong on my own for over a year before ever meeting another falun gong practitioner. I have not had a single experience to hint that this could be a cult in any way. It has had only postive impacts on my life. There are no memberships, no money is exchanged, and you can do it without ever talking to another person who does falun gong. How could a cult exist without membership? As far as the Chinese media is concerened, you have to keep in mind that the Chinese government has a bad habbit of running people over with army tanks if they voice their opinion. The media in China is controlled by the government. The reason why the Chinese government bagain persecuiting falun gong, is because there are too many people who pratice it. Li Hongzhi lectured for two years to about 20,000 people. withen a few years, several million Chinese were practicing this chi gong. The Chinese government is afraid of anything that could motivate that many people for any reason. The only way someone can be unbiased is if they give it a try themselves. If you don't like it, don't do it. Simple as that. In all though, I'm just trying to say that this has helped my out a lot, and I just wanted to give my opinion. People have the right to their own opinion (even if it is totally opposite of mine).
www.falundafa.org (http://www.falundafa.org)
www.clearwisdom.org (http://www.clearwisdom.org)

magicfist
02-16-2001, 02:04 AM
www.clearwisdom.net (http://www.clearwisdom.net)

cagey_vet
02-16-2001, 02:48 AM
right, chi stuff is good
cult stuff is not good.

if you can separate the wheat
from the chaff then go ahead.

go to rick ross website and see
the posts from news agencies from
all over the world.
something about... oh i dunno...
some guy claiming to be the center
of the universe? so he ripped chi gung
exercises from someplace else....
i will look for quotes and news clippings
to set y'all straight.
cuz you sure arent doing it yourselves :P~

cagey_vet
02-16-2001, 03:01 AM
ok here we go...
from none other than TIME magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,28833-2,00.html

In an interview with TIME in April, Li spoke about the
joys of levitating and claimed that aliens have been
invading humanity since the beginning of this century.

TIME magazine is hardly in cahoots with
communist chinese officials, but...

hey, sounds like a kook that found something
cool to manipulate people with.

i thought different when it first happened.
like maybe something neat is brewing in the
world... freedom at last for our national chinese
brothers and sisters.

upon closer examination, i feel different.
like dangling a carrot in front of a running
horse.
only in this case, the horse gets to bite every
once in a while, blinded by whats ahead of him
enjoying the taste of the bite.

premier
02-16-2001, 04:15 AM
http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=126197291&f=340190991&m=5721985601

There's the conversation we had on this subject in kung fu forum few weeks ago.

magicfist
02-16-2001, 09:23 AM
http://clearwisdom.net/eng/weekly_category/support.html

International organizations and governments don't support cults.

Qiman
02-17-2001, 03:20 AM
I ordered their Video and instruction manuel.
They threw in a gallon of gas and a pack of matches for free!!!!!!!! ;) Just kidding of course.

The chi-gung sets are basic and nothing special. The writings of the leader are magical in nature and sound delusional to me. One example is he describes seeing a naked female (vision) while meditating. He explains that this is a visit by a demon attempting to hinder your progress.

This is a very new aspect of meditation to me. I know I have a lot to learn and look forward to the day that naked females visit me. :)

I am joking about that, it would scare the **** out of me to start having hallucinations.

Iron_Monkey
02-18-2001, 12:20 PM
Does anyone know the definition of the word cult? It means;
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociol.a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.


so by definition, Christianity is a cult, Buddhism is a cult, Islam is a cult, Hinduism is a cult............Nice eh? It's not till the 6th definition of the word cult that you guys get your meaning when applied to Falun Gong. Does ANYONE HERE have FIRST HAND knowledge of Falun Gong that is unfavorable? Don't knock it till you try it. Let em be, if they are happy......

GLW
02-18-2001, 04:05 PM
To the best of my knowledge, Heaven's Gate folks and those in Jonestown are happy as clams.

Those with David Koresh are a little hot under the collar, but when the smoke clears, they are probably happy too.

The Khmer Rouge was a nice organization following their leaders....the fields were nice.

origenx
02-18-2001, 04:46 PM
cagey vet - actually, he may be right about the aliens. But, that's another story...

As far as levitating and other paranormal powers - I believe they may be possible but will really believe them when I see them. There was footage this Sunday night on TLC showing Lamas walking thru walls so who knows? So, I don't think this is necesarily proof for or against.

As far as the integrity and validity of the Chinese gov's propaganda, you gotta be kidding me. They blow so much smoke out their *ss you'd think you're stuck in a cab with some practicing Rastafarians. Reminds me of the anti-LSD largely-BS "horror stories" you heard in the 60s. Even the recent self-burnings are highly suspicious of being faked. Like one guy's "burned face" looks suspiciously like the latex masks used in movie-making, where it's thicker and covers up the real hairline, creating a false one that goes straight up all around. Meanwhile, the gov has cruelly tortured countless and killed over a hundred non-resistant followers.

I don't care if this guy's a flake, I think the gov's crackdown on it is horrendous. I think everyone has the right to religious freedom, especially if it's non-violent.

Bottom line is, I want to hear the facts argued here, not baseless mudslinging. I want to hear specific facets of the teachings, exercises or Li Hongzhi debunked, or not. Again, anyone???

Qiman
02-18-2001, 08:54 PM
Orginex, I agree with you about the outright suppression of thoughts and ideas in China. I am very much a supporter of free speech and all the liberties we enjoy in the good ole US of A.

I thought I was specific when I described the visual hallucinations this guy was reporting. I did sutdy the teaching from the website for a while. I stand by my first post.

origenx
02-18-2001, 09:17 PM
qiman - actually, I've heard the same advice to not be distracted by weird hallucinations or visualizations during meditation from various sources, not just FG. That was even supposedly one of Sakyamuni's "tests" for enlightenment per legend. So, I consider that pretty standard advice, if anything...

And BTW, as far as levitation and "superpowers" - a certain HUGE mainstream "respected" religion claims its leader could walk on water, materialize things, change substances, heal and come back to life after death - yet no one uses that as proof that it's BS or a "cult." Can you spell D-O-U-B-L-E S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D ??

[This message was edited by origenx on 02-19-01 at 11:27 AM.]

Iron_Monkey
02-18-2001, 11:30 PM
My thoughts exactly origenx. Until someone has PROOF, then let it alone....


People think if it can't be explained or sounds impossible, then it is. I think science and spirituality will eventually prove eachother right...........

Kung Lek
02-19-2001, 12:28 AM
Hi...again.

origenx, you can draw your own conclusions about Li Hongxi and his teachings at his website.
The link is supplied in another post.

Falun Gong/dafa is a "cult of personality" and not a religious cult. They are different.
you speak of outrageous stories of "miracles and faith healings" in reference to the christian faith. The christian faith has many aspects.
Some even recognize Jesus as just a man, but a man with a message of peace.
The miracles can all be explained and have been by various sources.
for instance "water into wine"- it is known that the same amphorae (bottles) were used over and over again sometimes over a period of years.
This led to a residue buildup of crystallized wine in the amphorae. Jesus directs someone to fill it with water and swish it around.
Wine is produced much in the same way as instant coffee.
The zealots proclaim this a miracle. Jesus never claimed a miracle had occured.

The fishes and loaves story has an equally intersting twist.
Everybody gathers (about 5000). 5000 people gathering with no food at all? didn't happen.
the demonstartion by Jesus and his followers was a lesson in giving.
IE: Give away everything you have and it will be returned in two fold.
If I hand over all my fish to the next guy, somebody down the line is gonna give me theirs and so on until all the food that was present at the sermon on the mount was distributed and there was some leftover in the end. The only miracle there was that people gave up their own possessions and learned that they really gave up nothing but instead made gains in more areas than food.

Lazarus was a result of knowledge. He may not have even been dead at all. Jesus was likely educated in some medicinal practices and either brought lazarus out of a coma, or any number of other techniques associated with medicinal practices at the time (which were no less or no more primitive than herbalism and manipulative therapy or Chi manipulation or acupressure.puncture of today).

Li Hongxi in his writings sets himself apart from the rest of humanity and all his contemporaries. He claims that virtually all of the masters of Chi Kung don't really understand Chi Kung and that only if you follow his way will you see what "real" chi kung and it's benefits are.

Li Hongxi is the leader of a cult of personality that does little more than borrow from chi kung arts that have existed for many years before he was a gleem in his dads eye.

Li hongxi has told people to not go for treatment of acute symptoms and those people have died because of their faith in Li.

Li hongxi capatalizes on those who are too weak to make their own destiny manifest.
He is clever and recognizes most readily human weakness.

Yes the PRC is likely going overboard in their protestations about Li and his group, and they do have a clear track record of obfuscation and deception and accordingly are not trusted by the western public.

But what of western propaganda? What of the still prominent "communist scare" in the western world.

Li hongxi is no different than the rest of us, he is a human who has all the problems and joys of being human.
to his followers he is a demi urge and sage of sorts.

Li is not the only one who practices these deceptions.

The Chinese government does not crack down anymore on people doing tajiquan in the park or Chi Kung for that matter. It is the communist party line to not allow groups that are considered dissident to flourish.

Li hongxi actively recruits government people in all levels where possible.
He is seeking internal political power and indeed he has a political agenda.

I do not agree with the tenets and precepts of communism at all in any way. it is a pile of marxist utopian garbage in my not so humble opinion.

Nor do I agree with anything about falun gong practices with the singular exception that Chi Kung practice is good for you and it is good for anybody of any age.

Be careful, that's all.

peace

Kung Lek

[This message was edited by Kung Lek on 08-19-01 at 11:58 AM.]

Qiman
02-19-2001, 03:33 AM
Li also states that Monks or Nuns that cultivate in a specific way. When dead and creamated will leave a mass of material from a different dimension. It cannot be identifed by modern science. Sounds delusional to me.

brucelee2
02-19-2001, 05:28 AM
Actually, I have read in several books of high level masters of chiqong/taoism, when cremated, leaving a number of diamond-like residues. I think Magus of Java was one of these books. Bones of the Master may have been another.

Kung Lek
02-19-2001, 05:31 PM
Yes, the claims of interdimensional materials and residues that are unidentifiable by science...
I have "heard" these claims too.
I don't think anyone actually ever had "science" take a look at these claims and I think that no-one ever will. It will immediately de-mystify everything.

It is these claims that drift from the truth of Chi Kung practice that tick me off.

Chi kung is a natural and very real thing that affects and effects each practitioner in a positive way.
It does not need to be mystified, it does not need to be wrapped in mystery.Accept it or don't but don't try and make a silk purse from a sows ear.

many do this with all sorts of arts.
Kung Fu is overmystified as are many martial arts.
It's just knowledge to be gained and applied, it is not some big-quasi religious secret.

corruption of intent, spirit and thought is what leads to these behaviours in so called "masters".

I have always been of the opinion that the more trappings and outward expressions you surround yourself with, the less true skill you have.
This I have found to be a general truism.

peace

Kung Lek

origenx
02-19-2001, 08:29 PM
qiman - I don't know about "other-dimensional," but it is stnadard Buddhist belief that enlightened masters, when cremated, will leave "suli" - small whitish pebbles. Like, supposedly, when Sakyamuni was cremated, he left 84,000 suli and India gave china 19 of them. Of those 19, supposedly the only real one located today is in Famen Temple in Xian. I saw it, as well as a finger bone also purported to be from Buddha. Anyways, the "suli" looks like a tiny whitish pebble about the size of half a grain of rice.

Kung Lek - Intersting spin on Jesus' "miracles." I never heard those before - where'd you read that?

Ok points about Li Hongzhi, but I still haven't heard anything really convincing that puts a nail in his coffin. I wanna hear that he's embezzling all this money to buy a fleet of Benz's, or that he lied about his past, or specific points in his teaching that are wrong. I still haven't heard anything solid as such... ?

Qiman
02-19-2001, 08:56 PM
Maybe delusions are to strong of a word, how about myth. I have never heard these stories before. Most of the books I have are on martial Qigong and only touch on the mystical. I like the fact that many of us have disagreed and no one has started name calling. Must be all that internal work! I may not can fly but it sure makes me calmer.

Origenx, I have not heard of the suli legend. Is it written about in the Dhammapada? If so were?
I am not challenging you, just want to read about it. :)

GLW
02-20-2001, 01:30 AM
Coffin nails....not bloody likely.

The BEST con men apply just enough truth and appear honest enough to be worthy of the benefit of the doubt.

From an old Thief of Bagdad movie : "Trust in Allah,.....but tie up your camel"

From P.T.Barnum paraphrased, When you are offered something for nothing, you usually get nothing for something....

magicfist
02-20-2001, 07:40 PM
falun gong is good
plain and simple

origenx
02-20-2001, 08:41 PM
Qiman - I didn't read about "suli's." I don't even know if they're in Buddhist texts. I just learned about them when touring various temples in China. If you talk to someone who's travelled somewhat in China or lived there, they may have heard about it. Ask around...and let me know what you hear?

ddh
02-21-2001, 12:10 AM
My teacher said that when his Buddhist teacher (a monk) died and was cremated, he left pearl like substances that came from his spine. These indicated that the internal fire from many years of meditation had hardened certain areas along the spine and were indicative of his teachers level of spiritual attainment.

magicfist
02-21-2001, 12:39 AM
"By the time one reaches the state of Unlocking Gong (kaigong) and is enlightened, this dan will be a bomb that explodes and opens up all supernormal abilities, all locks in the body, and hundreds of energy passes. "Bang," everything will be shaken open. This is what the dan is used for. After a monk is cremated at death, sarira remain. Some people claim that those are bones and teeth. How come everyday people do not have sarira? Those are just the exploded dan, and their energy has been released. They contain in themselves a lot of substances from other dimensions. After all, they are also something of material existence, but of little use. People now take them to be something very precious. They contain energy, and are lustrous, as well as very hard. That is what they are."

origenx
02-21-2001, 08:30 PM
ddh, magicfist - yeah, pearly "pebbles" being left after cremation of enlightened masters is a fairly standard Buddhist phenomenom that is not a new Falun Gong thing.

magicfist
02-21-2001, 08:53 PM
Sorry if I gave the impression that it was strictly a falun gong thing. It was just a description of a phenomenon that has happened to people in the past. By the way, what does ddh mean?

Anarcho
03-05-2001, 08:35 AM
"Orginex, I agree with you about the outright suppression of thoughts and ideas in China. I am very much a supporter of free speech and all the liberties we enjoy in the good ole US of A."

To start off with, I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm supporting the Chinese government (or any government for that matter). You do have to remember, however, that much of the information you're getting from the corporate media in the good ole US of A is propaganda, just as it is here in Australia, or anywhere else you care to mention. It strikes me as funny that so many of the same people who knock others for not being more critical of Chinese reports are so completely uncritical of their own media. If you've ever spoken to journalists who work for large media corporations, you'll know that they're the first to admit to "editorial" pressure to keep in synch with what amounts to the party line.

My personal opinion is that Western governments spend most of their time killing citizens of other countries, while dictatorships tend to work on a domestic basis as well. Then again, that's my personal opinion. I think you have to take absolutely everything you hear or read with a grain of salt. Look at where it's coming from, look at why they want you to believe it...Criticism begins at home. For any of you who are interested, Noam Chomsky has written a number of excellent books about how the government and media in the US and other Western countries lie to their citizens. The good thing is, he usually provides independently verifiable evidence, too. ;)

Anyway...

origenx
03-05-2001, 08:28 PM
anarcho - but that's sorta my point. Both gov's are sorta using FG as a political tool - it's not so much about FG itself. The Chinese gov could really care less what FG is about - they just see it as a threat for instability and insurrection. Just lots of frightened weak old men. The Chinese Communist gov wants to make an example out of FG to suppress other spiritual movements (see Tibet). I think the US is thus fairly concerned about the Chinese persecution aginst FG, but of course it also conveniently fits into their own anti-Communist agenda as well. Which I would have to agree with b/c Communism is a proven failure. Any system built upon human's ideal nature is bound to fail. You have to build it assuming the "worst" in human nature (selfishness, greed, etc.), but then channel those "negative" tendencies in a positive manner. (I.e. - get REAL folks!)

Bottom line is, everyone should just stick to the facts and evaluate FG on its own merits, instead of kicking it around like a political football. All I hear is lots of hearsay and propaganda still. But I guess that's the point - to cloud the issue by overloading people with misinformation and disinformation until they just get hopelessly confused.

[This message was edited by origenx on 03-06-01 at 10:50 AM.]

GLW
03-05-2001, 10:06 PM
First off, good post on the idea to be doubtful of all media. The first thing I always ask is why is this person telling me this and where are they coming from...regardless of if the story is from China or from the west.

As for why China chose to crack down on Falun Gong...really simple, the organization began to attract thousands of followers, then it began to target low level party members and local officials for enticing into the Falun Gong group.

The thousands of followers is scary enough for the PRC government to take notice. Especially since it got its start in the recent history since Tienanmen Square...but now add the idea of targetting people for inclusion or conversion into the group....and you have a major problem in the eyes of a controlling regime like that of the PRC....

If I am the government, abuse of power is my right...if you do it, you are being insurgent ...but it is no different in other countries....

However, the real story is in the Falun Gong book...I actually bought it and have read parts of it just so I would know what the guy was saying. He is certifiable....and I mean a space cadet.

Anarcho
03-06-2001, 03:27 PM
Cheers, OrigenX, I see your point. Just one aside, though, I don't think Marxism is based on considering humans to be naturally good, more on considering them to be changeable depending on their environment. And I definitely agree with you, state run communism couldn't work...You can't force people to do anything without causing more problems than you're solving. I also don't think that state run democracy works, but there you go. :)

Anyway, this is a thread for another board, so I'll shut up now.
:)

dave the dragon
03-07-2001, 04:22 PM
hello there everyone,
i was reading a book on eastern philosophy the other day and on the part about chi gung it mentioned falun gong now i have never ever heard of this and would like someone to enlighten me if possible in what ways does it differ from chi gung . i ask this because the book did not give a clear definition
any opinions would be greatly appreciated
(especially prana because he realy seems to know what hes on about)
Regards dave

PlasticSquirrel
08-11-2001, 01:43 AM
anyone?

unclaimed effort
08-11-2001, 05:31 AM
I could, but....

Falon gong is really messed up!! You want better health? Practice a martial art.

Try Hsing-I, Tai Chi, and Bagua.

magicfist
08-11-2001, 08:01 AM
Yep, I do practice falun gong. I've been doing it for about 2 years now and it has changed my life.

dhyana
08-11-2001, 05:18 PM
macigfist,

Please expand on how it has changed your life in the past two years ... I (and I'm sure many others on the forum) would like to hear your account of what you've done to change yourself in such a profound way. I've been considering taking up something like this and welcome all information that you could provide us with!

-----------------
"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They KNOW it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."
- Robert M. Pirsig in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

PlasticSquirrel
08-12-2001, 02:22 AM
i'm already quite healthy. i started out falun dafa because of the things in li hongzhi's books. his explanations of dimensions and other religions is unrivaled, and his practice of falun dafa seems superior to any other practice in every regard. not because of the movements, but because of the scope, and because the falun mechanism planted into practitioners is a direct way towards cultivating gong (shen).

it's very deep, though, and some people frankly aren't ready for it, or won't accept it. that's okay, though.

hey, magicfist, do you think we could talk a little via e-mail about falun dafa? i'm a beginner, and i'm sure you could help me a lot. i've read falun dafa, and large parts of his other writings, and am reading zhuan falun currently. i've also learned the first three forms, and practice them each several times a day. i also try as best i can to practice zhen-shan-ren, but i've been feeling stuck, because i have no way to judge my progress, or even know for sure that i have a falun without my tianmue open.

o
08-12-2001, 07:14 AM
I brought up this old string to complement the new string on falun gong.

PlasticSquirrel
08-12-2001, 06:07 PM
it seems to me that some people would classify this as mystical qigong. however, i don't believe that it ever claimed to be qigong. instead, it is a way of cultivation that includes exercises similar to those of qigong, but with a different purpose. when you have a falun, instead of a dan cluster, then the principles of what you are doing are totally different.

for instance, once you have a falun, practicing something that uses a dan could not work well. this is because the way they absorb and issue energy is different, and because a falun transforms the energy.

as i was saying, before i let myself get off the topic, is that it is a way to cultivation, similar to buddhism or daoism. a big difference, however, is that since people can cultivate quickly, and because the enlightenment is gradual, their third eye and supernormal powers develop gradually through practice. you can imagine how a man like li hongzhi, with his third eye and supernormal powers being how they are, could have gained so much knowledge. such an enlightened, or even somewhat enlightened person would seem odd or bizarre in a world like our's. his observations and knowledge wouldn't simply conform itself to what we know now. would the existance of aliens confuse and dumbfound an enlightened person? of course not. he would be able to see exactly what is happening. if he tries to tell the rest of us, this, however, will we believe him? we'll say "how do you know that?" when it should be quite clear to us how he does.

if you really read his books without attaching yourselves to anything else, it does make sense, what he says. the multi-dimensional aspects are clear and sensible, as are the rest of his teachings.

the big thing, though, is that we have to stop looking at it as mystical qigong. qi is a very small part of the practice, and is there only to open parts of the body, and to be transformed into gong (shen) by the falun.

p.s. if li hongzhi wanted to go against the chinese government with millions of practitioners in china, he wouldn't be able to. the reason is because they are non-violent. in fact, the main principles of the system are truthfulness, benevolence, and forbearance.

o
08-12-2001, 11:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> his [Li Hongzhi's] explanations of dimensions and other religions is unrivaled, and his practice of falun dafa seems superior to any other practice in every regard. not because of the movements, but because of the scope, and because the falun mechanism planted into practitioners is a direct way towards cultivating gong (shen). [/quote]

Please go into more detail on what you mean to say here, PlasticSquirrel. What support do you have for this claim?

PlasticSquirrel
08-14-2001, 01:52 AM
they're not my statements, but just opinions i have. if you want validations or clarification, i should probably redirect you to one of his books online. zhuan falun is the core book.

denali
08-14-2001, 02:00 AM
From what I have heard.. Falun Gong is a group that is using chi kung for what it was never meant for--politics. Very often you see them 'meditating' in public, drawing attention to themselves and trying to make a statement, which I think contrasts with the idea of chi kung or meditation.

If a person wants to do chi kung, why draw attention to it? What does it matter? Why meditate downtown with all your friends and a big bright ribbon around your shoulder? (i saw this in the paper the other day)

I personally think that a falun gong member will only receive minimal health benefits from the postures they do, but will find a huge difference in attitude as well as better results when studying under a true chi kung master.

I would rather learn closer to the source ..

magicfist
08-17-2001, 06:53 AM
Okay, when I first started practicing falun gong I was only interested in learning some form of chi gong. I do kung fu, and I thought it would help. When I first read the information in the falun gong books, I was very skeptical. I didn't really practice the chi gong for a while. One night I decided to give one last try before moving on. It was late at night and all of the lights in my house were off. I had my eyes closed and I did the movements. Then I saw two flashes of lighting. It scared the crap out of me and I opend my eyes and it was still dark. I closed my eyes again and resumed the movements. Then I saw a couple more flashes of lighting. I stopped and went to the one of the falung gong books. In the back there was a question and answer section. One of the questions dealt with the issue of opening the third eye. Li Hongzhi mentioned that one of the signs that the third eye is about to open is you might see flashes of lightning. This was the first experience that I ever had along these lines. Later, I could feel the falun rotating as I practiced the movements. At around this same time, I was taking a philosophy class at my college. The teacher talked quite a bit about scientific findings that were not mainstream. It really surprised me how much information agreed with falun gong. From that point on I have practiced falun gong. I said that it changed my life, and it really has. The quality of my life has improved. There were a lot of negative things that I was involved with (drug use etc.) that I have stopped doing as a result of practicing falun gong. I am more patient and kind with people, and instead of acting out of anger when there is a confrontation I try to follow the precept of truth, compassion, and forebearence. I'm not perfect and I have a long way to go, but I feel very fortunate to have found falun gong. Also I have met many other practitioners, and I have heard many stories of how people have changed there lives for the better after practicing falun gong. I know that there are people out there who have a lot of hostility towards falung gong for whatever reason. I suppose that you have to keep in mind that you really can't trust the chinese governments propaganda. Remember, the Chinese government has a history of running people over with tanks if they don't like their ideas. The practitioners in China aren't asking for special treatment, they simply want to be able to practice their spiritual beliefs freely. Over 260 people in China have been tortured to death because they wanted to practice falun gong. Thousands of others have been arrested and persecuted. Wheather you agree with falun gong or not, you have to admit that the Chinese government is in the wrong. Well, it's a long post so thanks for taking the time to read it with an open mind.

magicfist
08-17-2001, 07:12 AM
"If a person wants to do chi kung, why draw attention to it? What does it matter? Why meditate downtown with all your friends and a big bright ribbon around your shoulder?"

Here's a story: I'm a college kid who does falun gong. If I lived in China and someone found out that I did falun gong, I would immediatly be kicked out of college. I would be arrested. I would be tortured. If I did not sign a paper declaring that falun gong was "evil" then I could also be sent to prison.
Some people have gotten sentences up to 10 years for practicing falun gong, while others have been tortured to death. We gather outside and practice to let people know that what China is doing is wrong and they should stop. Plain and simple that's all it is.

Kung Lek
08-18-2001, 09:06 PM
magicfist-

there is an old saying- it says:

"society prepares the crime and the criminal commits it"

if you don't want to be found out, then don't practice what is considered criminal activity in public.

many people in the americas smoke marajuana, they do it in the privacy of their homes. Does this mean pot is good?
no it does not, it means that people will do what they like doing and try not to draw attention to themselves in the doing of it should it be a taboo thing to do in their given society.

If what you say is true, then it is YOU who must learn to work and live ithin the framework that you exist.

If you wish to influence change, then the last way that is done effectively is with an "in your face" attitude.

peace

Kung Lek

MasterPhil
08-20-2001, 05:15 AM
First, thank you for your honest answer.

Second, I do not doubt your personal experience (the flashes) as I also have experienced some very strange mental phenomena through taoist meditation. There is a lot to be experienced in the realm of the mind but one has to be prudent about the explanation given for these experiences. Simply because someone else describes what you felt doesn't necessarily means that everything else he will tell you is true. Maybe it is, maybe not. It is the same old trick all sects use. Luring people by teaching a few basic truths that everyone can test and see as true for themselves, then going on with their subjective interpretations... I'm not saying falun gong is right or wrong, nothing is really either. Just a warning about accepting a whole system of "truths". I wish I could explain better. It is late, I am tired. I will go sleep now.

ST

Surrounded by chaos, the true taoist laughs...

Rory
09-05-2001, 02:52 AM
sorry about the title okay now i want every one who pratice falun gong to tell me why. and every one who doesnt but disagrees with them to also explain to me why do you think that i am not hear to accuse or critizie anyone i just want to know what info you both have to backup what you believe

PlasticSquirrel
09-06-2001, 10:53 PM
the same reason buddhists practice buddhism and daoists practice daoism.

Kung Lek
09-08-2001, 12:27 AM
I practice Chi Kung for health and understanding of myself and how my body moves through the world I am in on a physical and mental and yes, "spiritual" level.

I follow no one but those who would assist me in gaining further understanding of myself by as yet unknown practices to myself.

To follow someone on a "promise" of returns is folly. To follow someone who can teach you something that will personally benefit you physically, mentally and "spiritually" is not so bad.

Complete devotion to anothers life will lead to sorrow for you exclude the opportunity to learn more about yourself. Not to say "don't", just saying observe carefully what you participate in and where you draw your lines of belief.

peace

Kung Lek

Rory
09-26-2001, 06:39 AM
I didnt know if some people new this but one of the major reasons why the comunists threw him out and banned it is becauses he used to be a general for the military and he has quite a few military people loyal to him so it scared the communists and they threw him out. I personally dont like fg i read about 1 1/2 books i read china falun gong and a little bit of zhan falun gong its rather unorthudox (sorry for the spelling) but still theres no reason for any one to accuse them of anything unless they know from first hand expirience. :)

[Censored]
09-27-2001, 08:24 PM
I was watching the news in Beijing last week. There was a report on a group of FG practicioners who kidnapped a non-believer and beat her to death, because she condemned Li. The story reported that they had Li's implicit approval; they were "excising devils".

I do not know whether the story is partially or completely true, but I have to wonder whether Li is really the "harmless nut" portrayed in US media.

PlasticSquirrel
10-03-2001, 01:22 AM
i'm a little late with this thread, but here goes:

falun dafa practitioners are peaceful, like buddhists. they would never do anything like that. besides that, li hongzhi is in america, and isn't in enough contact with his chinese students to issue an order like that. even if he was, no one would do it, because they're peaceful, and don't exorcise demons in the first place.

it's not their place to do that, and they believe that they shouldn't interfere with those sort of things, although a high-level practitioner may ward away demons with his presence alone, and wouldn't resort to beating it out of someone (something that is ridiculously impossible, by the way).

falun dafa may be centered around one high-level teacher, but it is certainly not a network, an organization, or a cult. people can do as they wish, and no practitioner would resort to violence just because someone has a demon in them. li hongzhi says that people would be shocked if they saw how many people have demons, but he doesn't pay much attention to them.

jun_erh
10-04-2001, 01:41 AM
i don't usually read rolling stone but their new issue with the "9-11-01" on the cover has a great article where a journalist from the NY Times interviews young would be terrorists/Bin Laden supporters. The one thing that struck me is that NOTHING HE SAID COULD CHANGE THEIR OPINION. This "faith" is usually reserved for supernatural/deified individuals (Jesus, allah) They would make a point, he would counter it and they would just say "no!!" That's insane. I consider Falun Gong to be a bunch of weirdos. People I would once have not considered a threat at all. Mao used comic books to get to people's conscoiusness, In the early 80's, we saw absurd Rambo knockoffs as right wing propaganda...
One word I saw in college often was "loaded". that is, the use of a word being used or meaning a lot of things, possibly. The right wing support of Paula Jones was "loaded" in that it was aimed to take down Clinton, not stop seual harrasment, or at least not firstly. So now someone is taking Tai Chi and putting an ideology on it? What if someone did that with Ju-Jitsu? Egads! :eek:

PlasticSquirrel
10-05-2001, 01:42 AM
falun dafa is no more a cult than daoism. the people aren't kept track of. they come and go from the practice sites as they wish. if people just want to practice it for health, they can do that. instruction is free, as are the books and videos on the internet. nothing is kept in the shadows, and li hongzhi is only a teacher of falun dafa.

people that practice falun dafa don't care about politics, and are not violent radicals. they feel that they have no right to tell anyone how to live their lives, and if they kill, they will probably never succeed in cultivation. in falun dafa there is no excuse for killing, and no one will give you mercy in heaven. if they are nuts, then they are at least nuts who won't hurt anyone else or start any revolutions. those are the good type of nuts, i think.

it also has nothing to do with taiji. qigong has always been seperate from taiji, and the things that li hongzhi was taught are completely seperate from taiji, with no overlap.

as for the thing about chairman mao, you might do well to learn from history (china's paranoia, tianmen square), and rather about things not from the news or from chinese government propaganda and hearsay, but from the source.

really, people. the whole "falun gong is a cult and li hongzhi is evil" thing is totally without basis. it's all propaganda. look through his books online. i'm sure you will either come out with one of two opinions:

1. li hongzhi is nuts, and everyone who practices falun dafa is nuts

2. li hongzhi is brilliant, and falun dafa is the greatest thing ever

whichever one of these you think, it will at least be your own opinion, and not propaganda or lies.

jun_erh
10-07-2001, 12:21 AM
You're probably right. In retrospect, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm serious ;)

WongFeHung
10-09-2001, 06:49 AM
the reason falun gong is able to gain a foothold in the usa is because people are of a new generation, who were not around for Rev Sung Myung Moon and his Unification Church, and there are alot of misplaced hippies,woodstock nation burnouts, reiki masters, and granola munching new agers with dream catchers on their rearview mirrors(is that so if they fall asleep while driving, they don't get nightmares?)looking for someone who has all the answers."there's a sucker born every minute"- PT Barnum

PlasticSquirrel
10-11-2001, 02:09 AM
what about in china? there are a huge number of qigong masters. why didn't anyone question him earlier? surely they would have known the levels he was at without even talking to him. how did falun gong become far and away the most practiced qigong in china since the introduction of it in 1992? no one challenges his method or his levels of teaching. he was undisputed in china and his system was praised by the government because it was so powerful.

for the record, li hongzhi has 40 times the students that sun myung moon did.

wuwei
10-11-2001, 04:19 AM
I saw an instructor teaching chi kung(zhineng) style here. He seemed a good fellow, but listening to him more and more,people would tell me that he's really teaching falun gong.Very deceptive man.

:eek:

o
10-13-2001, 02:54 AM
Here are two articles I found at www.qi-journal.com (http://www.qi-journal.com) : "Is Qigong Political: A New Look at Falun Gong" by Ken Cohen, and "Falun Gong: A Way of Cultivation Practice" by Tracy Zhu. I have breifly started the first article myself and it looks to be of help to this topic. The site is: www.qi-journal.com/Qigong.asp?-token.Referrer=Qigong&-token.Category=Falun (http://www.qi-journal.com/Qigong.asp?-token.Referrer=Qigong&-token.Category=Falun) Gong

Here are the article descriptions:

"Is Qigong Political: A New Look at Falun Gong" Falun Gong has been in the international news and has become a political topic as China attempts to ban the practice and jail participants. Mr. Cohen not only describes the discipline to help us understand it better, but also gives his personal opinions on this very hot topic.

"Falun Gong: A Way of Cultivation Practice"
Did Mr. Cohen's article in the last issue (above) lead to misunderstanding about Falun? Here, a Falun Gong practitioner responds with an article that answers some of questions brought forward with their own personal experience

KF4LIFE
11-08-2001, 12:51 AM
Has anyone been practicing the Falun qi gong system and have any comments about it. I personally have only been practicing the exercises and sitting postures for a bout a week and i feel the tremedous power increase. Any one else with good results?

TIger Hand
11-09-2001, 07:50 AM
Falun-

It is a health exercise like any other, i don't know why some people who does falun start thinking they are like "supermen." Maybe that why china is putting them in jail.

PlasticSquirrel
11-10-2001, 04:33 AM
falun dafa is not like other qigong methods. it does not facilitate dan, or elixer, nor use the dan tian for anything other than the falun. it is spiritual qigong, similar to the rare methods found in chinese buddhism, daoism, and tibetan buddhism, and thus does not emphasize qi very much, although the exercises do work it to supplement the other aspects of falun dafa.

the people who practice falun dafa and are jailed for it are very peaceful and humble. they are jailed because there are too many of them for the government to keep under it's thumb. they are not just jailed, though. they are sent to labor camps and are tortured. over 200 have been beaten or tortured to death, and for a reason no better than what the government gives for doing the same thing to tibetans and christians in their country.

if they do seem to be "super men", it is because they can see through their celestial/heavenly eyes, through to other dimensions. this is not unique to falun dafa, but it is much rarer to find people of those levels in buddhism and daoism today. also, many practitioners are said to have supernormal powers of many kinds, but are emphasized not to use them.

i have read li hongzhi's two main books (china falun gong and zhuan falun), and found them to be very deep and fascinating. i, however, do not practice falun dafa. i know that at least one person on this forum practices it, and has gotten very positive results, but i've forgotten the name.

shaolinboxer
11-10-2001, 07:06 PM
This group, although peaceful, is indeed as dangerous as any other cult.

I think the way the Chinese govt has handled them is attrocious, but if you consider what happened during the Taiping Rebellion, when a chrisitian cult almost took over the country, it easier to understand why they are so worried.

TIger Hand
11-11-2001, 10:17 AM
Atrocious-?

Maybe? The gov't claims falun has destroyed peoples lives and also their families. Do we know of the stories? or is the gov't just talking BS?
Supermen? haha...hardly. If you tell me falun can improve health, calm mind, foucs thinking...etc. ok, but once you tell me BS like i don't have to eat because i know falun....well i say your are a cult.

If what the gov't say is true then they should be dealt with like any other extremist cult.

Unmatchable
06-01-2002, 09:50 PM
What do you think of this site: http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/f02.html

Unmatchable
06-01-2002, 09:53 PM
How bout this on Zhong Gong: http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/z02.html

TaoBoy
07-11-2002, 10:38 PM
I know very little about Falun Gong - except that it is pretty controversial and the Chinese government has outlawed it.

An old Qigong master/healer once explained to me - in broken English - that it is dangerous.

Anyone have experience in this area?
Got any references?

Cheers!

bodhitree
06-05-2003, 07:51 AM
Need to revive this forum. I don't practice this, however I did a research paper for my Poli sci class. I want to know what you all think persecuted group or evil cult?

chen zhen
06-05-2003, 03:09 PM
"Need to revive this forum"

I hope you've seen our posting and hard work reviving this forum before you wrote that:mad: ;)

Falun Gong is kind of evil cult-y, but the chinese government has overreactet with a big O, in their persecution of them.

Former castleva
06-05-2003, 03:38 PM
Yeah,hopefully our hard work has paid off. ;)

I´d go for a twisted cult.

chen zhen
06-05-2003, 03:41 PM
"Worked out", I would'nt call it, with only one new thread.
btw, I did'nt find out any new subject, I've been busy all day. I promise I'll have something new tomorrow.

hey, I made it into someones sig, never have before.:)

Former castleva
06-05-2003, 04:06 PM
Many KFO´s broke trough and to liberty that way. ;)
Your time has come.

lol I actually thought you chickened out for a moment,I/We´ll be waiting for your subject carelessly. :)

ZIM
06-05-2003, 04:25 PM
Pyramid scheme, disguised as a twisted cult. Tony Robbins for commies...

I like the falun gong solely becoz they p1ss off the communists so badly. :D

chen zhen
06-08-2003, 03:51 AM
Is'nt the ideology behind Falun Gong a mish-mash of different poorly understood chinese philosophies/disciplines? and if it's that popular, it would be a little sad that the only way for the chinese to learn something of their own past history of philosophy and qigong, would be to join that sh!t.
how sad:(

bodhitree
06-09-2003, 05:25 AM
I think they are goofy, however Li HongZhi says no other qigong practitioners know how to cultivate life. He is wery controlling, I read Zhong Falun, it was strange.

Former castleva
06-09-2003, 08:42 AM
I thought what Falun Gong was really good for was cultivating DEATH.
I think they are strongly linked to various murders.

BAI HE
06-09-2003, 12:55 PM
Any group of nuts that are stupid
enough to screw around with the PRC
deserve what they get.

chen zhen
06-09-2003, 01:31 PM
So I guess the tibetans deserve what they get, for screwing with PRC...:(


..know what I mean?

Former castleva
06-09-2003, 01:59 PM
Not sure.
Overall,I think Tibetans would deserve better treatment.

chen zhen
06-09-2003, 02:35 PM
Ooh, you think?!

If you ever saw footages of public beatings of tibetans by PRC soldiers, heard stories of torture, heard of the 10000+ buddhist temples destroyed, and 3000000+ tibetans killed and murdured since 1950, then yeah, they could deserve better treatment!:mad:

bodhitree
06-10-2003, 05:47 AM
I agree with chen zhen, Tibetins deserve none of the tourture they receive from PRC. Everyone should learn from them, they could be using the same tactics as the Palestinians or the IRA, but they chose the non violent route. They deserve liberation, but we liberate Kiwait(or however its spelt)where the oil is.

BAI HE
06-10-2003, 09:08 AM
Ummm. We're talking about Falun Gong practitioners here.
The PRC has banned all "Religous Gatherings", the
Falun practitioners openly defy the PRC.
Why don't they practice in their own homes?
Especially when they know the consequences.

What they do makes about as much sense as dumping
goat blod over your head and jumping into the water
with a great white shark.

The PRC is not a demoracy. Either way, I wouldn't
screw around with them If I were a citizen there.
We're talking simple cause and effect.

I never said I AGREED with the PRC. I spoke nothing of Tibetans.

BAI HE
06-10-2003, 09:09 AM
BTW - Let's hope they find diamonds or oil in Tibet.

chen zhen
06-10-2003, 11:23 AM
why's that?

BAI HE
06-10-2003, 11:28 AM
Then we'll go runnin' to the rescue!

chen zhen
06-10-2003, 11:41 AM
put a "..." around rescue...;)

Man, I've been a little slow today, when people told jokes... I don't know what's happening with me:p

Suntzu
06-17-2003, 11:53 AM
Is'nt the ideology behind Falun Gong a mish-mash of different poorly understood chinese philosophies/disciplines? sorta like this board...:D

chen zhen
06-17-2003, 11:55 AM
sho 'nuff

:D

GLW
06-17-2003, 02:01 PM
Li is a true wacko. His book talks about how his method came from the aliens. He is definitely out in the ozone.

His group got in trouble in the PRC for reasons that are not widely publicized in the west because it is not what the media wants to portray...

However, the reasons for the crackdowns in the PRC...

(1) the Falun Gong folks originally had Li and a couple of other folks under him. Li fled the PRC.

Why...well, his group at all levels was beginning to target local and prefecture level public officials and party members for conversion. They would get the Chief of Police in small areas, the party head, other officials to either look the other way or join in with Falun Gong. Then, the group could hold public demonstrations and recruitments in those areas without fear of harrassment. They were beginning to target larger population centers for the same thing.

Now, from the PRC's point of view, this is EXACTLY what any counter-revolutionary group would do if they wanted to begin a movement to take over the government...from the ground up.

They were in part doing it to protect their postions of power and in another part doing it to prevent something like another Cultural Revolution from outside of the government (personally I think it was about 75+% of the first ..but that was their reasoning.

Second reason: The two or three high up leaders after Li left were found to be using their positions to persuade extremely young girls into sexual things with them...this at any level is bad news...unless of course you are Mao and doing it with the secret police :)

Third reason: There were members that were not exactly sane that did personal harm to themselves so they could be closer to Li or test some of the ideas. These things were blown out of proportion by the Chinese media but there WERE crazies that did this kind of thing...then again, there were crazy young girls in the early 60's that did harm to themselves over the Beatles....

People get benefits from Falun Gong...but what they report can be obtained just the same from practicing any number of Qi Gong methods.

There is simply nothing special about it...but it does have a strange lunatic at the head.

As for Tibet, it IS a pity what is happening there. However, the question of Tibetan sovereignty has been around just like the thing between the Irish and the English for a LONG time.

The PRC HAS done some bad things. However, the other side of that coin are the bad things that were done regularly in Tibet before the PRC took over.

Those items were reported...but the real tragedy is what has happened to the Tibetan culture over the years.

Former castleva
06-17-2003, 02:31 PM
Enough ingredients to produce a dangerous cult.

BAI HE
06-20-2003, 10:38 AM
Would you like some kool aid?

Wind&Mountain
09-09-2003, 10:18 AM
I was wondering if any of the Qiqong and meditation practitioners here know of Falun Dafa and what they think of it?
Essentially the practice and lifestyle was introduced in 1992 by Li
Hongzhi and has really become a movement in china to promote wellness and health and a more peaceful way of living ones life. However the government doesnt think so. they regard the practitioners as a threat and a cult and has gone to such lengths to try and stop the organization.

This is not a promotion for the Society of Falun dafa, i am just attemtping to start a discussion to get an idea if any here practice this or know what it is and thier opinions.

Peace,,,,,Wind and Mountain

Former castleva
09-09-2003, 10:52 AM
I can only think of it as a cult.

Wind&Mountain
09-09-2003, 11:44 AM
however i am more interested in the qiqong practices rather than the political practices.:)


Peace,,Wind and Mountain

Former castleva
09-09-2003, 11:49 AM
Sorry... :)
From what I read,seemed as if they had "high hopes".
You ought to think that the practices are pretty much out of the question,for public that is,considering their status.

QuaiJohnCain
09-09-2003, 12:42 PM
It's crap.

Wind&Mountain
09-09-2003, 01:48 PM
is it because of the political practices or the qiqong practices?

(Note) i am not a follower of falun gong)

i will say that i know a woman who runs a vegan resteraunt where i live and she is a follower and seems like a well rounded individual( i mean her vegan food is out of this world). anyway.


Peace,,Wind and Mountain

bodhitree
09-10-2003, 06:18 AM
There qigong has no basis in TCM or meridians, just phoney movements Li Hongzhi made up. I agree quite crappy!

David Jamieson
09-10-2003, 08:03 AM
Not true.

The qigong is borrowed from various sources and incorporated. What I have seen of the qigong is legitimate qigong.

The problem is with Li and the agenda of the organization, not with teh qigong used and propogated. Carry the moon, lift the sky, seated dragon etc etc are all "standards", I've seen people here using wild goose in their dailies.

The ideas and philosophy of Li is what is weird.

You can find thesegongs from other teachers without the 'cult' trappings. Most good trad Kungfu teachers know a variety of Gongs that suit their arts.

cheers

QuaiJohnCain
09-10-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
Not true.

The qigong is borrowed from various sources and incorporated. What I have seen of the qigong is legitimate qigong.

...and watered down, incomplete. Nothing more than parroting the basics which can be found in several public sources.


The problem is with Li and the agenda of the organization, not with teh qigong used and propogated.

Yeah, like "let's package some BS and laugh at the dumb roundeyes paying us for it"



The ideas and philosophy of Li is what is weird.


Kooky, cultish, and childish, Li's stuff is best suited as material for a fantasy cartoon. I mean come on, waving your hands in a yin-yang patter over your food to get rid of "evil chi"?

He's laughing all the way to the bank.

Former castleva
09-10-2003, 10:36 AM
Superstition sells.

Wind&Mountain
09-10-2003, 11:10 AM
An article about this group a few years back. After posting the query here and then thinking on it i remembered the article.
I seem to remember reading that they wish for china to return to the old confucious ideals before the communist rhetoric came in to play.
i dont know how practical that is but apparently this organization has ALOT of people in it and the communist government thinks that is a threat.
i am one who believes that communism is a failed system and really doesnt work and more democratic means of governing oneself in the world of society is a much better system,,however it seems as though these people are just trying to govern thier own spirituality in a country that degrades and discourages spirituality, since communism through the mind of MAO states that religion is poison and should be erradicated.
but i am no joiner of cults so I personally would steer clear of them. they did spark my curiosity though.
i just wonder about the qiqong practices that they incorporate
i mean is it 8 peices of the brocade is it 5 animal frolics is it Li's own amalgamation of several systems of qiqong?

PEace,,Wind and Mountain

bodhitree
09-11-2003, 06:20 AM
Read Zhong Falun and tell me it is made of real qigong. It is foney bougna ( it was funny to write that!)

jun_erh
09-14-2003, 09:44 AM
There are people who practice it on Boston common. I think it's good in the sense that it brings qigong to the people. and the qigon itself is very un martial. very soft which i think is more truew qigong than alot of the slowed down aerobics being touted as the real deal in kung fu schools. But they think their leader is some kind of God or something. I was talking to one guy who does it and he told me the falun gong was bigger and better than taoism or budhism or something.

chen zhen
09-14-2003, 11:23 AM
There was a minor FG demonstation in copenhagen once, where they tried to get people to come and try out their methods. me and my buddies said "what the heck" and went there. Their excercises are watered-down, and doesnt do sh!t. it is not real qigong. If they help with anthing, it would be because of the Placebo effect.
I agree that it is a cult. What they are trying to do to people, I dont know. but i guess it isnt good.

Kristoffer
09-14-2003, 03:43 PM
I also see it as mainly a cult like organisation

Daredevil
09-14-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by chen zhen
If they help with anthing, it would be because of the Placebo effect.


Not defending Falun Gong at all here ...

But if it's placebo that's helping you, who cares? Who cares what causes the effect as long as it is there. How is placebo in any way less real than 'real'?

Indeed, I think all qigong has a little to do with placebo (from a western perspetive).

blooming lotus
09-14-2003, 09:17 PM
placebo nothing. Like it, practice it , believe it...... whatever .... its science baby

Former castleva
09-15-2003, 12:44 PM
"But if it's placebo that's helping you, who cares? Who cares what causes the effect as long as it is there. How is placebo in any way less real than 'real'?

Indeed, I think all qigong has a little to do with placebo (from a western perspetive)."

It matters,in that you may be investing money&time in it,more or less.Literally "buy" it anyways.
That is,if that´s the best it can give,you may as well do something else,or even just sit down and visualize.

blooming lotus
09-15-2003, 01:57 PM
Dear Former

I have been wrestling with this issue for some weeks. Ive gotta say that your words have helped. From a scientific point of view, while the existance of qi has been proven by nano - technology research, really besides words from Li hongZhi himself ( which may or may not be true and accurate) there is really nothing solid that I have seen myself to back the virtues of falun gong practice ( except for degrees of increased energy potency which may or may not be placebo by - product). Being a reasonable kinda person, the best I can do is to reserve judgement until if ever the science ( which I'm not so un-onto it about) becomes available.

cheers FC

Former castleva
09-15-2003, 02:19 PM
" From a scientific point of view, while the existance of qi has been proven by nano - technology research, really besides words from Li hongZhi himself ( which may or may not be true and accurate) "

I know nothing about this (these matters tend to be highly questionable).

"Being a reasonable kinda person, the best I can do is to reserve judgement until if ever the science ( which I'm not so un-onto it about) becomes available. "

OK.

"there is really nothing solid that I have seen myself to back the virtues of falun gong practice ( except for degrees of increased energy potency which may or may not be placebo by - product). "

Understood.Walking has helped my energy potency (terms may differ).The benefits are well-established/documented.

"Dear Former

I have been wrestling with this issue for some weeks. Ive gotta say that your words have helped. "

I´m not sure what the exact issue that you have been dealing with that hard is (FG?),but I´m glad to hear that.

"cheers FC"

Cheers BL!

blooming lotus
09-16-2003, 03:50 AM
Formercastleva

As far as your familiarity with nano - technology and qi, pls feel free to exlpore quorumglobal.com for scientific enlightment.

As far as walking and increased energy potency goes ...you are a funny guy.


what ever fc..whatever

Former castleva
09-16-2003, 09:36 AM
"As far as walking and increased energy potency goes ...you are a funny guy.


what ever fc..whatever"

When I was younger,I could have thought that the lawn was more green on the other yard,not anymore.

"As far as your familiarity with nano - technology and qi, pls feel free to exlpore quorumglobal.com for scientific enlightment."

With best respect in mind,I must note that there is plenty of pseudoscience out there.

http://worldwidescam.com/quorumdd.htm

blooming lotus
09-16-2003, 04:43 PM
Castelva

You are correct. There are alot of pretensive scientific claims out there, but I can almost guarantee you that this isn't one them. I followed your link and couldn't open the last page. That aside however, I have on previous occasion invesatigated the guenuinity of this research with a quite prominent multi - million dollar Austailan business man and sceptic at my terminal beside me.

In the article you directed me to, it states thats the nstc budgetary claim is falsified ( whether or not that has anything to do with the results they acheived), which castleva without evidence on refuting parties counter claims is nothing more than assumption at this stage.

I have a financial interest in Quorum global myself and have gone to great lengths to investigate their legitamacy. The NSTC ( NATIONAL SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY COUNCIL ) has had a budget of $21 billion ( larger than the us defence budget) with assistance from nasa, cia, usda, fda and epa to privelege us with this information.

As you are aware Castleva, this information revoloutionises western medicine and particular the parmecuetical industries ' potential revenue. Are you sure, bearing in mind that quorom is a hong kong owned company, that this rebuke you have discovered may be nothing more than a fabrication from someone with veested interest standing to lose large should tjhis information be assimilated into western knowledge of the way energy and health combine and correlate on a physics scale? Remember, the nstc have produced technology allowing them to build equipment that measures qi on a scale of frequency and have also been able to produce, preserve ,maintain and retune energy according to this knowqledge.

Really FC, I appreciate your scepticism but unless you have something solid to add, I suggest you look at the source of this information you provided and investigate their rescources, motivations and integrity.

blooming lotus
09-16-2003, 05:05 PM
for anyone else interested in the scientific merit of qi, pls do a search on the nstc, go to nanotechnology, select r&d (research and development) have a look at finacial contributers, go to their sites to do reverse verification then see results back at nstc nano technology.


former
While quorum may or may not have direct affiliation with the nstc, they have by whatever means been privvy to this information and have therefore also had the benifit of this $21 billion r&d. I dont remember what quorums own r&d budget was, but I have experienced these products first hand. I am passionate about optimum health and qi and while you may claim that what results I experienced was placeb effect, you cant **** with fact and until its proved otherwise, I'm just going to have to trust the evidence.

woliveri
09-16-2003, 10:14 PM
I've watched a group practice in a Rowland Heights, ca park and from what I can see the exercises are quality. The down side of the practice is they played some annoying music/chanting whatever from Li hongZhi.

The real downside of Fa Lun is the political crap they started. They have totally ruined open Qi Gong practice in China.

Former castleva
09-17-2003, 09:20 AM
"You are correct. There are alot of pretensive scientific claims out there, but I can almost guarantee you that this isn't one them. I followed your link and couldn't open the last page. That aside however, I have on previous occasion invesatigated the guenuinity of this research with a quite prominent multi - million dollar Austailan business man and sceptic at my terminal beside me. "

I think the site (Quorum Global) is what made those questionable claims.Using seemingly scientific terminology to support pseudoscience is nothing new.
Not to be taken personally,but saying that you or some people you know have "investigated" this,fails to convince me of their value.
I want hard evidence,the site makes apparently made-up claims about their authencity,but provides no objective references or research to check.As the site I posted,and even their site says,their claims have not been validated.Not very surprising.

"I am passionate about optimum health and qi and while you may claim that what results I experienced was placeb effect, you cant **** with fact and until its proved otherwise, I'm just going to have to trust the evidence."

What you have felt about anything of this is hardly a relevant issue.
Evidence?

"As you are aware Castleva, this information revoloutionises western medicine and particular the parmecuetical industries ' potential revenue. Are you sure, bearing in mind that quorom is a hong kong owned company, that this rebuke you have discovered may be nothing more than a fabrication from someone with veested interest standing to lose large should tjhis information be assimilated into western knowledge of the way energy and health combine and correlate on a physics scale? Remember, the nstc have produced technology allowing them to build equipment that measures qi on a scale of frequency and have also been able to produce, preserve ,maintain and retune energy according to this knowqledge. "

The ridiculous thing about this is the whole non-falsifiable energy that this is based on.Reminds me of other "qi research" dealing with "bioelectromagnetic fields"."According",indeed,to their knowledge.

"Really FC, I appreciate your scepticism but unless you have something solid to add, I suggest you look at the source of this information you provided and investigate their rescources, motivations and integrity."

Source of my information deals with related hoaxes.
I have added my reasonable doubt.

Former castleva
09-17-2003, 03:57 PM
I found an interesting article,which sums it up IMHO.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html

The least exciting of which is;

"TIME: Would you use qigong to cure an illness?
Li: I can do all of this, but I won't do it. "

blooming lotus
10-07-2003, 12:36 AM
fORMER,

DUDE..TO QUOTE THIS YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT AND I WILL DISCUSS THIS NO FURTHER!!

AS FOR "CONVINCING YOU..THE WORLD OWES YOU NOTHING KIDDO AND WE ARE NOT HERE TO CONVINCE YOU BUT TO SHARE WHAT WE KNOW.

HAVE SOME REALITY, STRUGGLE WITH IT AND LOVE IT FOR THE REASON THAT YOU FIND TRUTH AND GROWTH.:(

Former castleva
10-07-2003, 01:21 PM
Take it easy Lotus.

looking_up
10-08-2003, 09:52 AM
FG brings cult-style qigong to the people, which is bad for people who are just practicing traditional qigong for health and martial arts (it's the same to me). Qigong should be no more mystical than walking, and yet the underlying principles and the effects can be profound. The thing is, you don't have to understand or believe in the underlying principles, as long as you are practicing correctly.

blooming lotus
10-09-2003, 03:23 AM
No, but you do need to know exactly what it is you are practicing, and yes, I agree. ( I think you may've missed earlier posts) When abused falun gong is definately capable of damage to both individuals and the environment they are in contact with

Kristoffer
10-09-2003, 05:45 AM
Cults sucks ass

blooming lotus
10-09-2003, 09:19 PM
Exactly! Drama for freakin what?

blooming lotus
10-12-2003, 10:15 PM
Brad

You know what dude, dont be afraid to answer questions especially from your own students. Every one deserves answers and if they cant ask us, who can they ask?

As for li hong zhi being raelian ..what the?? Maybe hey































:rolleyes:

Former castleva
10-17-2003, 11:49 AM
http://www.randi.org/jr/101703.html

jun_erh
10-17-2003, 04:14 PM
I guess if tai chi was a cult I'd join. But I think the falun people will eventually realize that they can seperate the mystical religious stuff from the qigong.

blooming lotus- you seem like a big weirdo. Are you a drug addict of some kind?

blooming lotus
10-17-2003, 04:52 PM
JE

lets get real for a sec.. Falun gong is a branch of qigong. as far as mysticism goes..that **** is just twisted perspective! And fine ..if it makes you feel better, yes i am an athlete and I am on drugs ********!

Battosai
03-15-2004, 05:35 PM
Hey Everyone

In a previous thread there was mention of 'Falun'? What exactly is that and how has it caused problems for other chi-gongs? I saw a group of Falun Gong practitioners in a park once last summer, they were doing alot of standing with their arms in an 'embrace the tree' like posture at different angles to the body. I am curious...what are they doing to cause so much trouble?

Thanks
Respectfully
scott

Tainan Mantis
03-15-2004, 08:05 PM
Fa Lun Gung is completely unrelated to PM.
I understand that they are dangerous to PRC because the are
-huge
- more faith in their beliefs than in PRC gov and communism
-the abilty to organize and disperse instantly
-pervaded high levels of gov(since destroyed)

If you look at history of China you find that these type of groups, since times ancient have been a seroius test of main gov powers.
Includung ability to topple government.

In Taiwan they practice peacefully in the park totally unhampered in what they do.

There is a large concern in Taiwan that these type of freedoms will be whittled away if Taiwan reunites with China.
So on March 20th a win for Chen and his plans of a new constition may spark cross strait war, and ultimetly world war.

Chen fills people minds with the belief that Taiwanese have the right to proclaim their...however you want to word it... it boils down to freedom from China.
Because of this a large segment is ready to fight for the freedoms that Chen and his group say are threatened.

The survey show the country is about evenly split between Chen and the opposition, Lien.
So we all wait with bated breath.

I am legally not entitled to have an opinion on the matter being a US citizen so nothing here intends to show my beliefs one way or the other.

I watch the situation closely as my Uncle is third in line(roughly speaking) from the presdency himself.

Sorry to get a little OT, but this is the burning question in everyones mind today... Who will win?

How does all this relate to PM?

A bad outcome will result in my returning to USA sooner to tech Mantis there.

isol8d
03-16-2004, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Who will win?

How does all this relate to PM?

A bad outcome will result in my returning to USA sooner to tech Mantis there.

Your students in the United States would win.

If China does rule Taiwan, will we see an influx of teachers immigrating towards the United States?

Good luck over there....

Tainan Mantis
03-16-2004, 04:21 PM
Isol8d,
Yes, but my Taiwan students might feel the loser.

If China attacks Taiwan tomorrrow it will take a long time to be in control, if ever.
All though they have big size, they don't have any easy way of bringing their troops onto Taiwan soil.

dropway
03-21-2004, 03:40 PM
hi there, i wonder if anybody tried the falun chi gong system,
if its benefic or not
thanks

Vash
03-21-2004, 03:56 PM
Try something else. ANYTHING else. martialartsmart.com has some good chi kung tapes, I think.

Falun Gong is a psuedo-cult-religion thingie. Fricky.

backbreaker
03-21-2004, 10:24 PM
Vash knows nothing. Falun Gong is one of the best . It is non religous. It is true qigong, very good. I know many practitioners. It is for real, straight up. It is in no way a cult; just practice the exercise and cultivate compassion, tolerance, the truth and do your best in society wherever you are you can make the best out of every situation with falun gong.


http://www.clearwisdom.net

http://www.falundafa.org

:)

dropway
03-22-2004, 02:54 AM
my questions regarded the exercises, not the rumors that suround this organisation, anybody experience it or know somebody experience it?

bodhitree
03-22-2004, 06:12 AM
My opinion of the exercises is that they have no base in TCM, and they are just movements that LI hongzhi made up, who gets his info from other dimensions, sssssssssoooooooooooo, I personally think the exercises are not real qigong.

Repulsive Monkey
03-22-2004, 09:35 AM
This subject has come up0 before, and the idea about it having not much to do with TCM I feel is quite true. How on earth it can be conceived as non-religious when its movements/theory etc are all stolen from Taoist, and Buddhist ideas I don't know.

It is not a true qigong, but a peice-meal of a qigong.
It's history and origins are incredulous to be honest. It's best to stick to a traditional qigong to be honest.

backbreaker
03-22-2004, 09:38 AM
Master Li did not " get falun gong" from other dimensions. It is a system to attain enlightenment and cultivate virtue, and is not the only qigong system with that purpose. It is obviously a real qigong, containing elements from beginner to advanced. TCM has it's basis in ancient qigong styles like falun gong. Energy can flow in either direction and it's not just falun gong which says this. Second of all , Falun gong has no organization or organizational structure. It is actually all up to you.

I know some practitioners and have been told that their health is much improved, and strong compassion is generated ( which are probably related). It is also a powerful system. People can feel strong energy flowing like a wheel the very first day, and I have been told about some things people have seen while doing the seated meditation.

It is very natural. Practice and develop compassion. WHat it really is , is an advanced set of 5 forms. In Many styles you start out with more movements in the beginning, and more of the sets are movements. When you go more advanced levels, less movements and more meditation sequences. That is what Falun gong is, a set of 5 forms, from beginning to advanced, 2 meditation, 3 movemt forms. The first exercise " buddha showing a thousand hands" opens up all qi meridians quickly and safely, and will create a pleasant feeling of warmth all over your body for a while.

backbreaker
03-22-2004, 09:42 AM
It is not stolen. It is for real. Falun gong and similar buddhist and taoist styles are the original, religion comes from them and changes when it becomes religion. You're better off with falun gong than some alternative healer messing with you. The benefits of falun gong are very good and come quickly. There is not a valid argument against it

Repulsive Monkey
03-23-2004, 06:28 AM
Im sorry but when you come out with stuff like

There is not a valid argument against it
you kind of render yourself totally without credibility.

I mean how on earth can you make a statement like

You're better off with falun gong than some alternative healer messing with you. as such a generalisation?

Falun Gong obviously does NOT stand alongside with traditional qigongs, and when you say that religion comes from Falun Gong but then totally misquote and contradict yourself by saying earlier that


It is non religous you are giving out not just mixed messages but a very poor edvertisement for Falun Gong, as if it doesn't have one anyway.
You say it is a complete system yet it's been pieced together from bits of Buddhism and bits of Taoism.
We've already had a thread before about the dangers of mixing different qigongs together hoping that they will stick, and this is no different.
The large and tall claims you make need to be backed up by something other than personal opinion.

backbreaker
03-23-2004, 09:40 AM
IT IS CLEARLY NOT PEICED TOGETHER OR STOLEN. There is no basis for that. It is much more powerful than acupuncture; the energy. You are a wannabe expert. Qigong is the original, religion comes after. Falun gong is not religous, it is real. At the very least the benefits are acheived before death, and it cultivates gong not just De. I don't speak for Falun Dafa, just my own opinion, Falun gong is powerful and non religous. No more religous than any qigong. IMO it is far superior to TCM or religion. If that offends you, just remember it's just me saying it, not Master Li at all, he has said old religions are true, but I think qigong really has the full truth.

dwid
03-23-2004, 10:03 AM
Dude, you are the biggest zealot on these boards. Relax with the propaganda spewing for a minute or two.

Fact is, Falun Gong is controversial, not because of the Chinese government, but because of the weird theory thrown around by its founder, among other things. With so many options these days, if you live in a city of reasonable size, it is almost guaranteed you can find a respectable qi gong teacher if you really look. Why go to Falun Gong?

Furthermore, calling Repulsive Monkey a wannabe expert is childish and ridiculous. As much as I disagree with the guy at times, he has clearly researched and studied qi theory and TCM as extensively, if not more so, than anyone on these boards. He has demonstrated his knowledge much more clearly than you have.

Every time the subject comes up, there are many reasoned voices giving clear explanations of why Falun Gong is best avoided, then there is you, the lone voice supporting the practice, generally providing little or no reason why it is worthwhile, just unsupported assertions.

backbreaker
03-23-2004, 10:11 AM
70 divided by 10 is only 7. Only 14 by 5. 2 1/2 is 28. So your numbers are useless to show your correct. Falun gong is one of the best. Hmmmm, sorry but you are not a qigong practitioner. Falun gong is one of the best. I know this and have experience with it. Repulsive monkey is a typical wannabe expert, and I am not just saying this. I have seen his type before. You think you are experts but you are not. Not childish at all, but true. You are the zealots, falun gong is all about moderation and living your life with a smile.

Second of all, external energy emission and cleaning up students bodies or developing their "falun" is not at all strange, and is in the capabilties of many masters. Long distant healing in another city away is well within the capabilities of a master.

Dude

dwid
03-23-2004, 10:20 AM
We'll all miss you when you develop your Falun Gong to the point where the aliens come and take you away on their spaceship.

Don't forget to write.

bodhitree
03-24-2004, 06:07 AM
dwid


Zhong Falun has gotten to him. Study real qigong, from a real master, then let us know about falun gong. Oh, but wait, its energy cultivation us just to high for people like us to understand:D . Oh, and by the way, repulsive monkey is in my opinion probably the most knowledgeable person regarding TCM on this website.

TaiChiBob
03-24-2004, 06:29 AM
Greetings..

All things being equal, i went to a Falun Gong seminar to see for myself what was going on.. some movements were quite beneficial and historically valid.. but, the mix and mind-set were counter-productive.. other movements were simply contrary to the thousands of years of quality Qigong history and documented benefits.. Basically, it's a half hour of time each day you can't get back, and the sum of my experiences suggests i can spend it more wisely...

I am no Qigong guru, but i trust my experiences.. and Falun Gong left me doubting its usefulness.. now, i could be wrong and i'll be the first to admit if i am.. i remain open to additional evidence..

Be well...

backbreaker
03-24-2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

All things being equal, i went to a Falun Gong seminar to see for myself what was going on.. some movements were quite beneficial and historically valid..



Re: Excellent, it is up to you to find out. If you don't like it that is up to you. But I don't get this historically valid thing, falun gong was secret up until a decace ago. The seated meditation of Chen Taijiquan is very similar , even with the falun conjoined hands posture. Other styles seated medidtation is very similar



but, the mix and mind-set were counter-productive.. other movements were simply contrary to the thousands of years of quality Qigong history and documented benefits..


Re: How is that? The minset cultivates the highest virtues. What other qigong has made the techniques and inner compassion at that level, and developed in the higher chakra centers that it is in falun gong.


Basically, it's a half hour of time each day you can't get back, and the sum of my experiences suggests i can spend it more wisely...


Re: The same could be said about Taiji. Someone could say you would be better off doing modern sports training, or could even aerobics




I am no Qigong guru, but i trust my experiences.. and Falun Gong left me doubting its usefulness.. now, i could be wrong and i'll be the first to admit if i am.. i remain open to additional evidence..




Re: I trust mine also, and falun gong resembles the best methods I have practiced, and these methods were not always taught in public in the past . Many styles of qigong were only taught to one or a few disciples, and from what I see today in some styles this still seems to be true; that the full system is onlt taught to one disciple. So I don't think you are gonna get anything that's not in falun gong without becoming a indoor disciple of a Master. IMO qigiong is better in many ways ( but not all)
than neigong or taiji, and falun gong is a complete and advanced form( it does have some nei gong aspects, and the heavenly circuit exercise is exellent for lengthening the tailbone). On the one hand it has powerful exercises, but on the other hand, alot of the hand movements along the acupuncture channels can take some time. If it doesn't agree with your experiences or your body, fine that's your choice and there are other good methods( but not many) , but I just think falun gong is an excellent addition to Taijiquan because while the seated meditation of Chen taijiquan is similar to Falun gong, it is not known by most teachers and falun gong IMO is the real higher level. But it does not make sense that falun gong is stolen or borrowed, because these methods were secret through most of history, even Taiji was secret until Yang Lu Chan learned, and there was still confusion when Chen Fake came out with his chen style.

Be well...


There is a Chen Taijiquan guy who post on EF. On his own website he sells 5 VCD's on Chen Taijiquan. On the second VCD it has Chen Taijiquan seated meditation, and it is very similar to falun gong, yet falun gong is not stolen. His website ishttp:// http://www.taijigongfu.com Buy his VCDs, they are awesome, for the fighting applications but also the seated meditation

TaiChiBob
03-24-2004, 11:52 AM
Greetings..

I do not make any claims of the origins of Falun Gong, i simply don't know.. the remark about "historically valid" means that some of the movements are consistent with principles that are common to most recognized Qigong sets..




Re: The same could be said about Taiji. Someone could say you would be better off doing modern sports training, or could even aerobics

Exactly, it's all a matter of preference.. no one's right/no one's wrong.. we will each simply reap the benefits of our efforts.. having been exposed to literally hundreds of Qigong practices, it is my opinion that the majority of the benefit derived is dependent on the intent and attitude of the practitioner.. the wide variety of movements and postures suggests that awareness of movement, intent, and an understanding of principles surpasses the benefit of detailed choreography...

Still, i remain open to contradiction or new evidence.. be well...

dropway
03-24-2004, 01:35 PM
thanks taichibob, is the concept of the wheel "falun" exist in any other qigong system?
it sounds very strange to me.

is it true that they practice with videotapes and recording??:confused:

backbreaker
03-24-2004, 02:42 PM
yes, the concept is the rotating taiji symbol in the Dao practices,( they will rotate the hands in front of the dan tien, in all directions actually, left/right, front/back, even up/down) Yoga practices have a concept of spinning chakras. There is a master Zhi gang Sha in Vancouver Canada who teaches the mantra of 3396815, san san jiao liu ba yao wu, in his Zhi Neng medicine to spin the energy centers and points. From what I understand Zhi Neng medicine is based on cell vibrations and balance I have not seen a falun in another system but my experience is not in the higher levels for the most part, but I can see that falun gong is related to the best styles. Falun though is seen in the past on both continents of the world so that may be what the historic talk is about. My feeling is that development of the wheel is higher level energy. If they are not spinning a falun they will be spinning the dan energy or a taiji ball in all the centers and points. Some comparitive systems-






Wild goose qigong is very good and is also one of the most popular in china. The theory of neidangong or developing "dan" is similar to falun gong


http://www.ru.ac.za/societies/qi/wildgoose/#move

http://www.chinaqigong.net/english/qgsk/ymj.htm

http://www.ru.ac.za/societies/qi/falungong/index.html



I have been shown some Quan Yin , or qinway qigong but I have not learned it. It was similar to falun gong especially in the palm change sequences. One meditation is called invocation of the masters I think, unless I have my styles mixed up, and has chanting similar to Master Sha's Zhi Neng Medicien, there is the chant " wonggggg, ahhhhh, honggggg" in both

http://www.qinway.org



This style I practice myself and am totally convinced that it is real, because my mental vibration energy changed to an intense super rushing tingling after practicing their pineal wave technique for the first time, instead of the old, mind lead the qi to tingle or vibrate, no this is something else, way beyond. Basically I think of the intense enery rushing and it comes, my feeling is that it flows down from the sky in a long pole or tube , and then flows through my body in paths kind of like a funnel reacting with my bodies energy . I do this all with a thought, don't need to do breathing or exercises, but you have to do them to integrate the very powerful energy ( you thought falun dafa was unreal?) Also it is my feeling that many solo Dao practice forms were originally practiced by 2 people, or even a whole circle. Like why would you move your hands in a microcosmic orbit in front of your body? It's almost like you are doing the microcosmic orbit on someone in fron of you in some Dao qigongs, but are supposed to not have 2 person cultivation, I think they originally did.

http://www.atlantis.to


My impression is that falun gong philosophy is strikingly similar to other buddha( saint) or Tao ( only taught to afew disciples) qigong schools. The foundation of O mei mountain gong , which was the first qigong I learned, was " strengthen the dan to safeguard ones original spirit". Falun gongs purpose is not to make money or gain new "followers" or anything like that, just to be there if you want it. No one should be dragged in if their heart is not in it. That is why they emphasize xinxing and the mental attitude rather than " qi techniques" and complicated levels. You can rewind a tape over and over and go at your own rate. Some groups practice to the falun gong music because it is pleasant, but also because the music carries energy and there are mantras in falun gong with specific vibrations. The practitioners I know say that in a group the practice is strengthened, and the new people will feel the rotating enery in the arms that the experienced practitioners have, like tuning forks tune to each other or something. If it's not for you, that fine also, falun dafa and Master Li are not looking to have the biggest amount of students possible, not at all, and there are other good practices

I think the wheel is a concept in the buddha qigong school, like Taiji in the Dao school. I know a buddha qigong ( Damo gong) that rotates the dantien clockwise and counter, but I wasn't taught that it was a falun, but my feeling is that it is the beginning of a falun. Like a practioner who's third eye is opening may see a huge high towering skyscraper, but peices will be blocked or the vision will be murky of some parts and the top of the building will not be visible. Li Hongzhi claims that there Tibetan Tantra styles with a falun concept. Pretty much all styles will spin the chakras and acupoints, falun or taiji, doesn't matter, different styles same purpose. I think that is alot of what is talked about in master Li's teachings, is what the Dao school equivalent is in the buddha school, which takes alot of knowledge. Cultivating dan( refined energy matter), the real location of tianmu, the immortal embryo( and where it is in both the Dao and buddha school), I can tell you the culivation of the immortal embryo is important in the Dao school styles( wild goose) I have seen, right from from the begginning. In the buddha style I saw , you invoke the master's energy body, and the previous ascended masters enery body to your own, and cultivate it from that in the lower abdomen, or actually the higher centers. So the theory in all qigong is that you create an energy body that grows and grows to be huge eventually, after several years. Falun facilitates this by spinning on it's own. So one specialty of falun gong is that the energy does everything on it's own, which is quite pleasant. But your everyday qigong expert cannot tell you anything about qigong cultivation




I would say Zhi Neng medicine Dong Yi Gong practice is also good, emphasizing internal visualisations and mantra energy. From what I understand Zhi Neng is based on cell vibration and balance

http://www.drsha.com

blooming lotus
03-24-2004, 05:52 PM
falun gong is a very good and effective way to cultivate internal prowess...but if you've ever read li hong zhis' book...it tells you that by folowing these methods, if you do it right you should expect to experience some un-culturally unacceptable states...if you don't spin out..you're not doing it right...the excersizes themselves are very good...but because he leaves room for way-laided ness in cultivation, it can get seriously out there....and if you don't do it by that method..it's just not falun right...it's powerful stuff, but unless you were sure of your heart, your mind and your intention...I'd probably not get into it....remember it now law in China to not practice this...is is an official cult and should be treated seriously

take care

backbreaker
03-24-2004, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by blooming lotus
falun gong is a very good and effective way to cultivate internal prowess...but if you've ever read li hong zhis' book...it tells you that by folowing these methods, if you do it right you should expect to experience some un-culturally unacceptable states...if you don't spin out..you're not doing it right

this is a ridiculous statememt. No offense, but you have obviously been reading the chinese government fake stuff, that is impersonating Li Hongzhi. Or, like other people here, perhaps you learned all your qigong from a Mantak Chia or B.K. Frantziz book. Every thing in Master Li's teachings is about clear mindedness, tolerance, rational thought, contemplation, goodness, oneness, TRUTH COMPASSION and TOLERANCE. Spinning out is not correct in falun dafa





....remember it now law in China to not practice this...is is an official cult and should be treated seriously

take care


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

blooming lotus
03-24-2004, 06:19 PM
I don't care what you say about this...people have lost the plot, died and killed other people from a trip directly relating to practice of falun gong...if you dont have a steardy head, I'm just not recommending it...I don't do hype..just experience...ya feeling me dude???....some folks just aint so sloud ya know, there's alot of really technical information and for some people, especially when you get into the ironskill/supernatural abilty jazz, it's just too much.....the bann is legit

backbreaker
03-24-2004, 06:22 PM
You are a brainwashed moron.

backbreaker
03-24-2004, 06:35 PM
:) ;)



http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24333

blooming lotus
03-24-2004, 07:31 PM
which is why I just passed a three day in-house mental capacity assessment.....good on you:rolleyes:

whatever dude...I just think the peeps should know there are risks;)

dropway
03-25-2004, 02:19 AM
backbreaker, i think the falun dafa practice is not realted to yoga, because the yoga aim the press the energy up the crown, there is not wheel concept on the navel chakra



don't care what you say about this...people have lost the plot, died and killed other people from a trip directly relating to practice of falun gong

do you have link of stories of these?


also, what's strange is that the falun practioner want to go higher, and higher, and there are many level, supperior and inferior, to the end, he will feel superior to the "ordinary person"

the founder also is unclear to what is "enlightenment" and the aim of falun practice....

TaiChiBob
03-25-2004, 05:47 AM
Greetings..

An analogy that i think works well here.. I am an avid hiker and camper, i enjoy finding food in nature.. i might wander through the forest and see many appealing fruits, berries and succulents but only a few are beneficial or edible.. i have studied many hours to be able to discern the beneficial and harmful foods.. i choose carefully my next meal.. So it is with Qigong, somethings can look appealing yet be harmful.. somethings can look disgusting yet taste great and nourish you well... Do your homework... thousands of years of experience cannot be discarded lightly.. likewise, unfamiliar experiences should be evaluated with caution, but evaluated with an open mind..

Qigong is not magic nor mystical.. it is a powerful and healthy aspect of a wholistic approach to maintenance of the total being.. an essential element of the "Three Harmonies" (body, mind and spirit).. Qigong eludes the current ability of science to label and categorize, to observe and quantify.. which causes some to discount its existence.. but remember, 200 years ago science had few clues of the discoveries that have become common knowledge today..

I suggest that rather than accept the beliefs of others, that the minimal risk associated with Falun Gong practice should be experienced.. decide for yourself, i did.. some of it is quite beneficial, some of it is counter to my own beliefs.. i simply choose the beneficial and add it to my quiver of useful practices.. if you fear indoctrination, then by all means avoid it.. the fear of indoctrination suggests that you are not strong enough to avoid it.. the research into history and writings of Falun Gong and Li Hong indicates more agendas than simple health benefits..

Be well..

backbreaker
03-25-2004, 09:49 AM
I don't think there is any agenda in falun gong. I don't blindly follow what anyone says, and I make my own decisions as anyone should, but I am not at all worried about the falun gong senior citizens in my town going weird, that's ridiculous. No practitioners commited suicide today in my town. Remember there is no organizational structure and falun gong is not for money. I fit is against your beleive then that is fine and your choice, I can only recommend a reevaluation of beleifs, but that's all I can say. I am always questioning myself when comes to not only qigongs, but also matial ats fighting styles effectiveness, because I can't do every martial art or every qigong.


Also , the practice of all qigong is to bring energy to the higher centers, and even the crown. But , the crown development is sometimes subtle; you are not aleays aware of crown development. I cannot say for sure there are other styles with falun, but I seem to remember seeind a diagram of the chakras somewhere and one was a falun, maybe not. Beleive me, in the invokation of the masters meditation in qinway, the masters energy body sits on your crown, it is the same as far as I can tell. Li hongzhi's definition of enlightenment conforms to some of the other sites I linkrd.

I can only say that I beleive that traditionally qigong was practiced for enlightenment, so Li Hongzhi's teachings just convince me more that falun dafa is for real. There are other lower or more intermediate ( or even maybe advanced) styles which are also good for health.

blooming lotus
03-25-2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by dropway



do you have link of stories of these?


also, what's strange is that the falun practioner want to go higher, and higher, and there are many level, supperior and inferior, to the end, he will feel superior to the "ordinary person"

the founder also is unclear to what is "enlightenment" and the aim of falun practice....

I don't have much time here, but if you read the current e-zine article from Grandmaster Tu Jin-Sheng, you may get a bit of an understanding.

quick quotes from the article re high lvl qigong practice:

" sometimes this harms your mental state."

"you can go crazy"

"your thoughts lose their focus..you see this in alot of athletes"

"egotism is an early warning sign. Aftre that, you go crazy or lose focus completely"

"the potential of losing your mind is why, at the highest level of qigong, you have to combine qgong with mudras and chanting"....(in refernce to yi and xi jing cultivation and vigilance realating to music, art and it's correlating meditative benifits)

pls also see the book (blue soft cover)
Falun Gong

by Li Hongzhi.

He talks about this himself and if you read the book you should be able to pick the potential for drama.

;) cheers

foolinthedeck
03-28-2004, 02:58 PM
makyo?

magicfist
04-27-2004, 03:08 PM
Hello,
A few years ago I practiced Falun Gong. I don't want to go into details (although I can), but it is a cult. There is really no nice way of saying that. If somone is interested in learning Qi Gong, then I would recomend any number of VALID systems besides Falun Gong. And if someone is interested in Eastern philosophy, then feel free to study as much as you want to. Falun Gong mixes religon and Qi gong in a system that is very emotionally unhealthy. I had to leave becuse I felt as if I was on the verge of having a nervous breakdown due to that belief system. I am not saying these things to sound mean or anything at all like that. I just want to warn people that it is indeed a cult. Li Hongzhi is a charasmatic figure who offeres what people want to hear. The only proof that he is enlightend is that he claims to be....I can claim to be a millionare...it doesn't make it so.

backbreaker
04-27-2004, 05:16 PM
Hi, did the chinese government send you? Are you saying all Dao qigong is connected to Lao Tzu? All buddha's connected to "the buddha"? ANd you're saying that truth, compassion, and tolerance is emotionally unhealthy. So you have made up stories about a group which is hardly even an organised group. Just practitioners who practice in the parks every morning, LOL at you. Enlightenment is what qigong is about, and it is a misunderstanding to think anything else, although that does not mean practicing it for lesser reasons is wrong. Falun gong is clearly non religous and not a religion. Go away you paranoid wannabe. It's the same old tired, invalid criticisms based on a misunderstanding of falun gong, and qigong in general. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS TO SAY IT IS A MISH MASH, RELIGIOUS, OR MADE UP. IT IS PLAINLY REAL, WITH CORRECT ENERGY DEVELOPMENT

http://www.clearwisdom.net

http://www.falundafa.org

I recomend ths style IMO over 99% of others. Truly a gem, and real. And I can also say it is absolutely safe.

backbreaker
04-27-2004, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by magicfist
Hello,
A few years ago I practiced Falun Gong. I don't want to go into details (although I can), but it is a cult. There is really no nice way of saying that.

BS. Li Hongzhi is not a leader. Each person cultivates themselves.



If somone is interested in learning Qi Gong, then I would recomend any number of VALID systems besides Falun Gong.


Re:It is way better than pretty much anything, except maybe personal study with someone the caliber of Li Hongzhi, but that would invole too much hardship anyways, and any valid qigong will say you have to cultivate through hardship at high level.



And if someone is interested in Eastern philosophy, then feel free to study as much as you want to.


Thanks for your expert opinion

Falun Gong mixes religon and Qi gong in a system that is very emotionally unhealthy. I had to leave becuse I felt as if I was on the verge of having a nervous breakdown due to that belief system.



Re: This is how I know you're lying. Falun gong is non religous and the practice is very serene and peaceful. This statement proves you are BS.



I am not saying these things to sound mean or anything at all like that. I just want to warn people that it is indeed a cult.


You're plainly lying. Nobody would refer to it as a cult except an idiot. It's not generally called a cult, it is a sect, and not even really that. So go report that to your communist bosses.




Li Hongzhi is a charasmatic figure who offeres what people want to hear. The only proof that he is enlightend is that he claims to be....I can claim to be a millionare...it doesn't make it so.


:rolleyes: ANd this statement shows that you are just plain not intelligent. Li Hongzhi does not tell people what they want to hear at all, only the truth about qigong cultivation. I know this because I have experience in Qinway and Kunlun wild goose and falun gong is clearly and plainly just as legit, but there are others that aren't , and that is why I will always defend falun gong. So Li Hongzhi knows his stuff, and has simply made available a practice to anyone who wants it, and these types of opportunities in history, are indeed rare.

magicfist
04-27-2004, 06:43 PM
Hi,
I can understand why you would be defensive about the fact that falun gong is a cult. Hey...I have an idea....why don't we quote Li Hongzhi directly from Zhuan Falun (the main book) and we can see what he preaches to his followers:

"The enlightenment quality of some people can't be brought out. Someone read my book and underline it here and there casually. Those who have their Celestial Eyes open all can see that this book is shining golden and bright with all colours, and every word of the book is the image of my law body. I would cheat you if I didn't tell you the truth. The one mark you made in the book has caused it to have a mass of blackness. How dare you do so?" - P. 168, 1998 translation

and:

"Your diseases will be cured by my Law bodies. Those who practise in the practising spot will be cured by my Law bodies. Those who learn Falun Dafa though self-study by reading the book will also be cured by my Law bodies."- P.61, 1998 translation

and don't forget:

"As long as you cultivate yourself, you will become practitioners of our school. My law body knows everything. He knows everything on your mind, and can do anything. He will not take care of you if you do not cultivate yourself, and he will help you all the way through if you do." -P.80, 1989 translation

These things can be read by anyone on the net at:

http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/pdf/zfl_en.pdf

Why am I going to the trouble of posting all this stuff? Either I am a secret Chinese spy plotting against a innocent group of qi gong practitioners......or.... I am a guy who was involved in a cult and can't stand by in good conscience without at least making an attempt. Sometimes we want something to be true so badly that we allow our innermost desires to cloud our reasoning. If you want to get mad and start bashing me, feel free. I am just calling a spade a spade. I hope you get out, if not now, then later.

take care,
-Jason

backbreaker
04-27-2004, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by magicfist
Hi,
I can understand why you would be defensive about the fact that falun gong is a cult.

It is not a cult, period. Everything is done by each indivdual practitioner, there is no cult, no organisation to join, everything about it is about benefitting society. Anyone saying "cult" is plainly an idiot.





"The enlightenment quality of some people can't be brought out. Someone read my book and underline it here and there casually. Those who have their Celestial Eyes open all can see that this book is shining golden and bright with all colours, and every word of the book is the image of my law body. I would cheat you if I didn't tell you the truth. The one mark you made in the book has caused it to have a mass of blackness. How dare you do so?" - P. 168, 1998 translation

That is taken totally out of context. You make it sound as if it is at all about Li Hongzhi, hey idiot, those books are pretty precious in China now, hey. You better preserve them well. You see, that does not say what you are trying to make say, it is about cultivation and this is proven, not attracting followers or worship, idiot.


and:

"Your diseases will be cured by my Law bodies. Those who practise in the practising spot will be cured by my Law bodies. Those who learn Falun Dafa though self-study by reading the book will also be cured by my Law bodies."- P.61, 1998 translation

and don't forget:

"As long as you cultivate yourself, you will become practitioners of our school. My law body knows everything. He knows everything on your mind, and can do anything. He will not take care of you if you do not cultivate yourself, and he will help you all the way through if you do." -P.80, 1989 translation


Re: that's right. It is in other qigongs of the buddha shool as well, which is NOT the buddhist religion. Damo qigong master chin chee ching sent energy to me from singapore, he is a real master, Like Master Li. Now, in Qinyin qigong, the master's fa shen energy body sits on your crown on top of your head, merging their energy body woth yours, as you chant " OOOM, jang he lao ja, sa yi wa sik day hong" , invocation of the quan yin and qinyin masters. So Li Hongzhi's teachings on Fashen are absolutely correct, real, and for no other purpose than cultivation.





ATTN: EXCELENT QIGONG TEACHINGS HERE. IF YOU WANT THE REAL DEAL IT IS HERE

[url]http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/pdf/zfl_en.pdf





Why am I going to the trouble of posting all this stuff? Either I am a secret Chinese spy plotting against a innocent group of qi gong practitioners......or.... I am a guy who was involved in a cult and can't stand by in good conscience without at least making an attempt. Sometimes we want something to be true so badly that we allow our innermost desires to cloud our reasoning. If you want to get mad and start bashing me, feel free. I am just calling a spade a spade. I hope you get out, if not now, then later.

take care,
-Jason

BEcause you are another idiot, with an agenda, who knows nothing about what real qigong is. You never did falun gong, and you have nothing to show that it is fake. Because it is a real qigong. The teachings of both the Dao school, and buddha school are completely correct in Zhuan Falun, I know this because I have learned QInway qinyin qigong, and Kunlun wild goose qigong. You just don't know about real qigong that is beyond execise qigong or martial arts qigong. THe high level in qigong period, is real, and any criticism of falun gong , the same could be said of any high level gong, and it would be wrong.

bodhitree
04-28-2004, 05:28 AM
"A few years ago I practiced Falun Gong. I don't want to go into details (although I can), but it is a cult. There is really no nice way of saying that. " Majic Fist

Its the truth, I'm not saying they deserve what the Chinese government does to them, however, the fact remains, just look at how much effort you are putting into defending them. Please, give yourself some time away to learn to think for yourself. Oh yeah, didn't 'master' li say those who practive martial arts qigong don't know how to cultivate life, and people who practice falun gong should not do any other forms of qigong because it will ruin the wheel. what are you doing here talking about martial arts qigong, go do some falun gong!

backbreaker
04-28-2004, 08:52 AM
What Master Li means , is that martial arts qigong is based on movement, but only stillness and meditation cultivates the orininal pre natal life energy. And in many qigong's as you go higher level, begiining methods are abandoned for more advanced methods. Again, nothing other qigong masters haven'r said, nothing even non masters haven't said. Other methods of qigong only verify falun gong, and it's a good standard of which to judge qigong styles. It simply means that practicing several High level qigongs can be complicated, and practicing too many or mixing them up won't be goo, this is common knowlege in any true style.

backbreaker
04-28-2004, 11:56 AM
Anyone criticisng falun gong saying it is fake is either-

1. Practiced simple health "qi" exercise, which truly have been ripped off ancient methods, but does not understand the potential of high level qigong. So they think they are experts, whent they're method does not come from a real school, but there is no basis for anything they say.

2. Simply does not beleive in real qigong period. And has no basis for anything they say.


3. Simply a religious person, in which case they will have many dogmatic misunderstanding about what qigong actually is, as well as just overall general misunderstandings of everything.

4. sent by chinese government

But there is simply no basis for anyone to say it is fake, because it is plainly real, and a good opportunity

backbreaker
04-28-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by magicfist
Hello,
The only proof that he is enlightend is that he claims to be....I can claim to be a millionare...it doesn't make it so.

Okay, so you know nothing about real qigong, and have never practiced it. Because you would know that enlightenment is in fact, what qigong is all about in both the buddha and Dao schools. I know this because I practice Kunlun wild goose, and qinyin qigong, so you have nothing to say, except that you think qigong period is fake. So shut up

TaiChiBob
04-29-2004, 04:53 AM
Greetings..

In this discussion (i use the term liberally), there is little evidence that anyone is overly concerned with aligning their energies with Tao.. there is much contribution to chaos and division, much meeting mental force with mental force.. threats and accusations.. Where are the true Tai Chi, QiGong and Taoist principles?... i suggest that they are bound up in the ego's need to prevail.. If this discussion indicates the calm and quiet serenity gained by QiGong practice, it's no wonder so many others are skeptical of QiGong..

As i re-read portions of the Falung Gong text as suggested by Backbreaker, it is clear to me that there are obvious inconsistencies and plainly observable religious overtones.. but, the physical motions i was exposed to at the seminar were largely authentic with a few notable exceptions.. like anything, there is wisdom in having the experience and only keeping that which is of value.. Backbreaker's attitude is so harsh and judgmental as to be a detriment to the Art he so plainly adores, his attitude should scare away potential first-timers.. i mean who would want to end up with that sort of unkind antagonistic outlook.. so much of his posting is precisely what his beloved master warns against in the referenced text.. so, until Backbreaker can demonstrate that he believes that which he posts, he should be left unanswered.. unfulfilled in his quest for conflict.. leaving him more time to review the texts of Falun Gong and adjust his practice..

We are all just pilgrims on the path.. be well..

goldendragon
05-02-2004, 04:24 PM
Taichibob that was a very wise responce, I bow to you and leave in peace.

unkokusai
05-03-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by backbreaker
It is not stolen. It is for real. Falun gong and similar buddhist and taoist styles are the original, religion comes from them and changes when it becomes religion. You're better off with falun gong than some alternative healer messing with you. The benefits of falun gong are very good and come quickly. There is not a valid argument against it


Someone's mixing the Koolaide!

jeetkunerob
05-04-2004, 12:16 AM
hey, nut breaker...I mean back breaker, you are doing a great job in showing all of us how compasionate and understanding falun gong is, by calling every one here an idiot or a chinese goverment spy. If you do not mind me asking where is that in the falun gong book? It's ok do not answer because you are just going to call me an idiot anyway, I guess thats what you falun gong guys do, if you do not agree with us we will turn against you...where did i hear that before...oh yeah the past history of the chinese government (and any other communist country). So I guess you have more things in common with the chinese government then you thought. Oh yeah by the way whenever you reach the higher levels of qigong...be sure to stay there because i think if people like you want to reach higher levels I am safer down here. That just my two cents.....

goldendragon
05-04-2004, 10:44 PM
Backbreaker was banned and now posting under the name Serious Pain I believe. He called Backbreacer a "poor guy" for getting banned.:rolleyes: I don't think he'll reply here because that would be asking to get kicked again. though I'm sure he'll read this and be itching to respond.:D I have read a book about this Falun gong it appears to tell you exactly what you want to hear. I read that once you do something like 10 min of chi gung it contiues to work while you go about your daliy routine ie: you don't need to practice:confused:
I asked my friend who's from china and he said that this Li Hongzhi person is in exile and said that if china wanted him to return he gladly would. Well of corse they wanted him to come back so they could imprison him but now where is he but nowhere to be found. typical of such a cult leader. I have no dout that this is a cult now that backbreaker has shown himself to be under some sort of mind control not to unlike the nazi propaganda. Someone said those who believe everything they read are better not reading anything at all. It sucks but it's true.:(

serious harm
05-04-2004, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by goldendragon
Backbreaker was banned and now posting under the name Serious Pain I believe. He called Backbreacer a "poor guy" for getting banned.:rolleyes: I don't think he'll reply here because that would be asking to get kicked again. though I'm sure he'll read this and be itching to respond.:D I have read a book about this Falun gong it appears to tell you exactly what you want to hear. I read that once you do something like 10 min of chi gung it contiues to work while you go about your daliy routine ie: you don't need to practice:confused:

Re: In the context it's said in , it says sometimes the moral attitude is even more important in qigong, and only being in the society can provide such opportunities to cultivate your self. It is true though, the higher level the qigong or meditation is, the shorter duration. You might not beleive it but it is true, the more complicated and time consuming the lower the level. The first sections of a qigong might have hundreds of movements, but the advanced will have only afew moves. Low levl form will be 30 minutes, high level form will be 3 or 4 minutes. Really high level form, maybe 2 minutes. But if you actually practice the falun gong, you will see many opportunities to extend meditation time for hours if you can.



I asked my friend who's from china and he said that this Li Hongzhi person is in exile and said that if china wanted him to return he gladly would. Well of corse they wanted him to come back so they could imprison him but now where is he but nowhere to be found. typical of such a cult leader.

Re: You just show you're an idiot with this statement. The criticizers of falun gong will always say something dumb like this.



I have no dout that this is a cult now that backbreaker has shown himself to be under some sort of mind control not to unlike the nazi propaganda. Someone said those who believe everything they read are better not reading anything at all. It sucks but it's true.:(


Go away, you are clearly beyond stupid.


JKRob, you get the award for the most pointless out of place reply. It's that argumentative internet style communists are known for huh?

FALUN DAFA = ONE OF THE BEST MOST POWERFUL METHODS

serious harm
05-04-2004, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

it is clear to me that there are obvious inconsistencies

Re: Such as?


and plainly observable religious overtones..

Like what? It is all real.

serious harm
05-04-2004, 11:13 PM
The stupidity and ignorance about qigong of many people here is ridiculous. Oh no, I might be truly banned and never be allowed here again. Darn

Buddy
05-05-2004, 05:37 AM
I knew you couldn't keep it civil. You are a know nothing teenager who can't keep his yap shut. Falun Gong is a cult, everyone knows it but you. At it's best it is simple breathing techniques with body postures. You should be banned again. Moderators? I don't believe this idiot emailed Gene and apologized. You know he's here, why?

bodhitree
05-05-2004, 05:39 AM
"no, I might be truly banned and never be allowed here again. Darn" serious harm

what gives you that idea, i am the moderator here and have never banned or threatened to ban anyone, oh but we are the ones who are 'stupid and ignorant'. We just don't know anything about qigong or building virtue, like humility, acceptance, and tolerance. Oh yeah, I forgot, you are an expert that we should all hold in high regard. the passionate and benevolent just engaging in name calling and complaining, ha.

TaiChiBob
05-05-2004, 06:28 AM
Greetings..

Li speaks of "salvation".. clearly a religious inferrence.. he also says that he alone is the source of the teachings, a "god-like" claim.. he send out deciples, admonishing them to neither add to, nor take from his teachings.. the same admonition is found in the last words of the Bible..

Some quotes from the book as taken from their web-site:

"Today I’m putting this right in your lap, and maybe you still don’t see it! So it’s a question of whether you can understand this, or to put it another way, it’s a question of whether you can be saved."

"What our practice does is cultivate a Law Wheel at the lower abdomen, and I personally place it in students during my classes"

"So it definitely wouldn’t work if I didn’t guide you as disciples. Just going around leaking so many of Heaven’s secrets to ordinary people isn’t allowed."

"I have so many Law Bodies they’re too many to count, so I can take care of however many students there are, let alone the students here in the audience."

"When I talked about possession, I completely took off all those spirits, no matter what they were—all those bad things—that were in or on the bodies of the people who can truly cultivate Dafa. And when people who do true cultivation on their own read this Great Law, I’ll cleanse their bodies just the same."

"When you really cultivate on a true path nobody will dare to just go and give you trouble, and what’s more, you have my Law Bodies protecting you, so you won’t run into any danger."

Now, these are just a few quotes that demonstrate just how "god-like" and religiously tainted Li believes himself to be, the texts are full of this sort of nonsense.. but, go to the site and see for yourself, make your own determinations.. as for me, i see this as a repository for people who can't live their own lives, who require some religious structure to make sense of their desperate situation.. each of us are possessed with all the tools we need to exists in total freedom from ritual and dogma, while ALL the wonders of the universe are at our command.. live your own version of enlightenment, not some one else's, especially someone like Li..

Be well..

Buddy
05-05-2004, 06:40 AM
Actually bo,
He WAS banned as his backbreaker moniker.

PHILBERT
05-05-2004, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by bodhitree
"no, I might be truly banned and never be allowed here again. Darn" serious harm

what gives you that idea, i am the moderator here and have never banned or threatened to ban anyone, oh but we are the ones who are 'stupid and ignorant'. We just don't know anything about qigong or building virtue, like humility, acceptance, and tolerance. Oh yeah, I forgot, you are an expert that we should all hold in high regard. the passionate and benevolent just engaging in name calling and complaining, ha.

I am the one who had him banned. Go read "A Challenge" on the Internal Board to get all the details of why he was banned.

TaiChiBob
05-05-2004, 07:10 AM
Greetings..

Does it occur to anyone that we have let one misguided individual control several threads.. i suggest we simply let him be, only respond in a manner that promotes decent dialogue and don't buy into his game.. these threads are an amazing resource, why let one person dominate the potential?

Be well..

PHILBERT
05-05-2004, 08:15 AM
TaiChiBob, it's not that easy. We've tried that before with some trolls. When someone comes on here who doesn't realize that backbreaker/ham hurter or whatever he is going by right now, when they fail to realize he is nothing but a troll, then they take him serious and someone must correct him. As soon as he is corrected, his mental thing clicks and he goes all psycho on us. So while it seems like it would work, to someone who does not know, he is doing serious harm. No pun intended.

TaiChiBob
05-05-2004, 08:23 AM
Greetings..

Ah Ha!! I see the problem.. oh well, it sounds reasonable to me till i see from that perspective.. keep up the good work..

Be well.. <humble bows>..

Buddy
05-05-2004, 07:13 PM
Bob I will respond to you elsewhere on a couple of subjects, I'm tired now.
But to the mods of this list: What Philbert (is that really your name dude? I'm fine if it is because Buddy is on my birth certificate. I'd just like to to know who I'm talking to) mentioned is the crux of my problem with this board. There are a lot of very impressionable young people who might read your mag. Then they come here and get their information from people who don't kaka from a hole in the ground. This can be a very damaging thing. It seems to me, for the most part that you folks who watch this board have a cavalier policy. When I was coming up there was Black Belt and Karate Illustrated. That's it. Then there was Official Karate for us on the east coast. Then Inside Kung Fu. I think you get my point. No bull**** just straight reporting, even if it was wrong or hyperbolic. But this is a new day and I'm not sure if you guys are up to it. You MUST live up to your responsablility! Why would you just allow people to challenge each other (Ross v Able), or spout crap (BB)? How does this serve our common ground? I'm not saying you should edit or discourage spirited debate. But at some point this stuff becomes internet horse****. Learn to say enoughs enough.

I'm done.

PHILBERT
05-05-2004, 09:17 PM
Nah, Philbert was a nickname given to me in high school by some upperclassmen in an attempt to be clever. Sad part was, the guy who originally thought of it up was in a sophmore class and he was a junior. My real name is Scott.

intimidation
05-06-2004, 10:07 AM
I see buddy has gotten to Philbert. Notice how similar sounding his posts are to buddies. I see there is no limit to how exteme buddies trolling methods have gotten, seeing as he PM's moderators attemting to brainwash them. I just gotta say this. I am not misguided, I have consulted with high level qigong people.

Taichi Bob_ All I can say is I beleive you are taking a very, I guess, " technical" viewpoint of it. But I still assert that nothing is made up by Master Li, it comes from his qigong tradition. To refer to him as " the kind of person as Li" is what is truly misguided. I have no problem if your mental blocks and seperate self cannot go beyond a certain point. Hey, I beleive the bible is origanally true though, so some people just can't accept what I accept and don't get as far in qigong, and so nothing high level comes their way. They say when the student is ready the teacher apears, I have found this to be very true. I beleive the teachings in the bible are legitimate oral traditions written down for future generations, traditions like the story of the " 3 wise men" from the east following the stars. See, there is something to it. But I assert that falun dafa is not Li Hongzhi's interpretation, or made up by him, that's pretty clear in my eyes, from my experience im many other schools.


Buddy- you're simply a case of the pot calling the kettle black. You're BK Frantziz style right? Well in his book, he says he received psychic energy transmition from his master, when he became a disciple in bagua. So I view it like this, go to the energy arts page and view for yourself, and look at structure, peng, energy, etc., then go to falundafa.org and see Master Li do the exercises. You clearly see they are both good, but my tastes in qigong practice lean towards Falun gong practice methods, because they are so natural and automatic without too much deliberate mind intent, the mind is barred from heaven, and falun gong is cultivation.
So think about it, BUddy has been doing qigong for 20 years . 20 years ago Masters such as Li Hongzhi, Wong Kiew Kit, Qin yin, Chin Chee Ching, Michael Tse, Bingkun Hu, Fook Youeng, and others' systems were simply not available in North America then. That is why I refer to your style as th Yang or CMC style of bagua. Falun gong is the high level advance part of qigong and I have asked my WIld goose/Damo/Qinway qiging teacher, who has done wild gosse for 20 years and other styles for alot longer, and he said falun gong is advanced , very good, and has proper practice principles and methods. An advanced wild goose student now teaches it. So anyone hungry for some burger king?

Oh yeah, I am not a practitioner of Falun Dafa, I do Tibetan Yoga because the mental energy in it is the best of ant sysyem anywhere. I've been doing IMA and qigong for 15 years, and I've done many different styles to, so I know who is in what class of skills, and falun dafa is high level.

dwid
05-06-2004, 11:19 AM
Wow, how many times will they have to ban you before you go away?

intimidation
05-06-2004, 11:29 AM
Depends on what my opponents give me.;) You have to realise that psychology is not the way to high level


I'll leave if I have nothing to say or am truly defeated, but I will never be defeated. Anyways to all you real trolls, here is something to consider, look at how many views the threads here get vs. the TCM forum. Like it, or don't like it, lagh or take it seriously, people are reading this forum now. And even if you take a look at the Internal forum, the most viewed threads are about me, or have me in them, just something to think about.

CaptinPickAxe
05-06-2004, 01:26 PM
INTIMIDATION!!!!


I was sent here by THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT! I was sent here to discredit Falun Gong (*a non-religous Qigong*)!
I've read through the Falun Gong and it took me all of two pages of to realize that something was up with this. I'm not a Qigong practioner, but I'm student of Dharma and a lover of eastern religion & philosophy. A lot of the theories in this book do seem borrowed from various texts from Buddhism and Taoism. It would be one thing to say its religous Qigong art and argue for that POV. But to (in the same breath) contridict yourself by saying its the only way to attain enligthenment (!!!A RELIGOIUS THEORY!!!) is ludacris.

intimidation
05-06-2004, 01:30 PM
I never said that and neither did anyone. THere are thousands of paths, some direct some indirect. Buddha= saint, not all buddha's come from the buddha. Tao= Dafa, different only in name. Zhuan Falun is meant to be that way, it is cultivation of the mind after all, it's a book that aims at your mind and virtues

CaptinPickAxe
05-06-2004, 01:35 PM
Its in the Falun Dafa as well!
Enlightenment a Religous Theory!!! Christians and Muslims don't attain enlightenment!!! They go to Hell (another religous theory!) Look, just admit that it is religous (it obviously is) and try to argue from the Religous Qigong point of view. I think you'll do a little better.

intimidation
05-06-2004, 01:37 PM
It is real. No worship, no dogma, only principles. Do buddha's consider buddha to be a religious concept?

intimidation
05-06-2004, 01:43 PM
There is only one absolute in falun dafa, truth , compassion, and tolerance, as well as non interfernce in the wishes ( free will) of others because you have to cultivate yourself, pretty much, yourself. The argument of Dafa disciples being attached to or idoling or worshipping Master Li, is ridiculous because he doesn't really teach in person, because the tribulations would be really harsh. So Falun Gong is simply a collection of UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLES, as OPPOSED to what you perceive as ripped off religous dogma, but it is not the same, Li Hongzhi was asked by his teachers to teach publically offering a path to enlightenment to anyone who chooses.

So in Zhuan Falun it is made quite clear that the salvation or enlightenment in qigong, is seperate, and different from that in religion

CaptinPickAxe
05-06-2004, 01:53 PM
Yes! I consider Jesus to be a religious concept too! And the Devil! And God! And Mohammed! And any other prophet or person who sat differently so people followed him!

I belive in reincarnation and agree with most of Buddhism concepts and belifes. But I take everything with a grain of salt (that salt being scientific PROOF). I just so happen to belive that reincarnation is much more concievable than a big guy watching everyones movements at every single moment and judging them at the end of the day.

It is religious. I'll qoute the INPAGE:
"Nothing but "Buddha Law" can thoroughly reveal the secrets of
the cosmos, time and space and the human body. It can genuinely distinguish between good and
evil, right and wrong, and establish the right view by eradicating all fallacies."

This the most obvious piece of religous concept if I've ever had spit at me! Just admit it is Religious Qigong.


Throughout the ages, nothing but "Buddha Law" can give a perfect and clear exposition of humankind beings, all different spaces of material existence, life and the whole cosmos.

So is the "Buddha Law" the eight folds path? or is it a new set of standard to live your life by? Either way it is a religious concept. Anything to make people live a certain way in fear of judgment (of any sort) at the end of their life is my definition of Religion. A belife in an after life. This book presents itself as a means to attain enlightenment through qigong meditation, correct? That in itself is a Religious Concept.

intimidation
05-06-2004, 01:54 PM
Tao= buddha law= Lord. What I am saying is behind most religion is actually something

CaptinPickAxe
05-06-2004, 02:00 PM
Tao=The Way * to live your life in a wholesome manner as to:
attain enlightenment/avoid hell/go to Valhallen/ Clarity in Bardo/ etc.*

The Tao is a religious concept too if you look at all the people who blindly follow that theory. The same way Christians, Hebrews, Islams, Buddhist, Shintos follow their faith with no solid proof. Its a set of morals to bide by. Its Religious Law="Buddha Law"

intimidation
05-06-2004, 02:06 PM
Li Hongzhi maintains buddha law pre-dates religion. I am also convinced of that. Non denominational, non dogmatic, and no worship. Only cultivation of truth, compassion, tolerance

CaptinPickAxe
05-06-2004, 02:13 PM
In the eyes of scientific proof:
Man made religion. Therefore, "Buddha Law" or "The Middle Way" or "The Ten Commandments" cannot be traced back before man.

Look at it this way:
There were a set of rules on how Humans should live their lives eons before humans even existed?

intimidation
05-06-2004, 02:18 PM
Well, I beleive in some of the oral or written traditions that made it publicly written down, as real, myself. And that the general legends about the origins have a point.

CaptinPickAxe
05-06-2004, 02:19 PM
if there were rules before man for man then that represents a celestial body i.e. God. God is a religious concept.

intimidation
05-06-2004, 02:21 PM
Universal principles, and the universe follows along as well, as above so below.

CaptinPickAxe
05-06-2004, 02:39 PM
a religious concept. Whats above? The moon? I think not. Mars? I'm not for martian law. I think your text is referring to a diety, friend. Thats a religious concept.

intimidation
05-06-2004, 03:04 PM
I don't think so. Qi is a similar concept construction, there is qi from above, there is qi from below, each side direction, and even 8 directions, as well as inside too.

CaptinPickAxe
05-06-2004, 03:09 PM
I think so. Either that or your Falun Dafa talks to little green men. Its universal law, Where did he get it from? Did he make it up or did he borrow it from another religion?

TaiChiBob
05-06-2004, 03:12 PM
Greetings..

I hope to correct a slight misunderstanding.. Tao simply means the "way" things are.. nothing else.. if we accept the way things are (their "nature), and try to find harmony in our existence among those "things", it is likely we will have a more wholesome life.. quite simply it is a path that seeks to harmonize its existence naturally.. Enlightenment is someones "concept", true Taoists aren't concerned with the concept, only the full and complete experience of living in the present moment..

Granted, there are some Taoist religious cults out there, but they are contrary to the philosophy.. misguided in their understanding.. in reality, we are ALL wayward Taoists in-as-much-as we seek to control nature..

Be well..

intimidation
05-06-2004, 03:15 PM
It is the tradition of the Tao and buddha school qigong. THe universe is in the traditions, read more about it. You are cultivating a giant energy body in space. In Qinyin qigong you cultivate a giant energy body in space. Same for Dao school qigongs, there is north star and big dipper long distance vision gongs, and they are short in duration. So I disagree completey that the qigong of Dao school is not about enlightenment, it is, although the focus IS on conforming to the requirements of it in your life, the practices are concerned with enlightenment plain and simple.

CaptinPickAxe
05-06-2004, 03:20 PM
My mistake. I never really completely read through the Tao Teh Ching. However, I know you'll agree, Falun Gong does indeed have religious overtone.

I think of it this way:

Science tells us that once we die we rot thats it. Its survival of the fittest.

I think that anything that stands juxtapose to the proven scientific standard is a Religious Theory.

intimidation
05-06-2004, 03:54 PM
Qi means universal energy, and universal, means universal. I'm going to go as far as to say if someone does not explain qi as universal, and all directions, they either have a low understanding regardless of years, or doesn't know what they're studying at all.

http://www.meditation-techniques.net/meditations/starexercise.htm


Falun is a representation of the universe, so is taji.

Buddy
05-06-2004, 08:32 PM
yeah but falun is a cult backbrea...serious har... Did you think it was not obvious?

unkokusai
05-06-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

I hope to correct a slight misunderstanding.. Tao simply means the "way" things are..

Be well..

Oh boy. Someone spent a few minutes in the bookstore and found "enlightenment". :rolleyes:

TaiChiBob
05-07-2004, 04:44 AM
Greetings..


Oh boy. Someone spent a few minutes in the bookstore and found "enlightenment". ..

Ahhh.. and, how does a pointless comment like that contribute to someone's quest for enlightenment.. is it an example of your own knowledge of compassion, kindness and Tao.. By the way, i didn't find enlightenment at the bookstore.. it's just that the hot chicks hang around the Eastern Philosophy section.. :)

Sure, i've spent time in bookstores, in fact i have an extensive library on the subject.. and i have over 15 years of direct experience with various schools of thought, philosophy and religion relating to Taoism.. i have studied with some gifted Taoist adepts.. One thing is certain, a quest for "enlightenment" is a sure sign that one is uncertain of its "nature".. Enlightenment, whatever that is, is not something you chase after, it is something that emerges from within when you have made room for it in your life.. Tao, or enlightenment is not the product of some contrived ritual.. grand theories and complex rituals hide "simple truths".. Tao is a simple truth.. to the degree we separate ourselves from the obvious "way" of nature, we distance ourselves from a clear understanding of Tao..

Finally, as we toss around the term "enlightenment", can someone define it? What are its qualities, what are the certain signs that someone has it? Philosophically, a Taoist would not be concerned with the acquisition of "enlightenment", they simply cultivate their lives in accordance with their "nature" and the rest takes care of itself..

Be well..

unkokusai
05-07-2004, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

..

Ahhh.. and, how does a pointless comment like that contribute to someone's quest for enlightenment.. l..

Who told you I was trying to contribute to your "quest"?

unkokusai
05-07-2004, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by TaiChiBob

Sure, i've spent time in bookstores, in fact i have an extensive library on the subject.. and i have over 15 years of direct experience with various schools of thought, philosophy and religion relating to Taoism.. i have studied with some gifted Taoist adepts.. One thing is certain, a quest for "enlightenment" is a sure sign that one is uncertain of its "nature".. Enlightenment, whatever that is, is not something you chase after, it is something that emerges from within when you have made room for it in your life.. Tao, or enlightenment is not the product of some contrived ritual.. grand theories and complex rituals hide "simple truths".. Tao is a simple truth.. to the degree we separate ourselves from the obvious "way" of nature, we distance ourselves from a clear understanding of Tao..



15 years to learn to love your own romantic illusion of yourself?

Good job.

dwid
05-07-2004, 08:01 AM
unkokusai,

FYI: TaiChiBob is one of the most respectful and sincere people on these boards. You're really outing yourself as a d!ck by pursuing this.

intimidation
05-07-2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

.

Finally, as we toss around the term "enlightenment", can someone define it? What are its qualities, what are the certain signs that someone has it? Philosophically, a Taoist would not be concerned with the acquisition of "enlightenment", they simply cultivate their lives in accordance with their "nature" and the rest takes care of itself..

Be well..

It's a paradox, you are not attached to enlightenment or striving for it, yet you must be 100% commited to living by the requirements of the tao, along your path. Here it is, the explanation of enlightenment, for real.

http://www.atlantis.to/atlantis-book/chapter-six-different-points-of.htm

http://www.atlantis.to/atlantis-book/free-online-chapters.htm

another article-

http://www.atlantis.to/articles/spiritual-enlightenment.htm

unkokusai
05-07-2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by dwid
unkokusai,

FYI: TaiChiBob is one of the most respectful and sincere people on these boards.


That is wonderful.

TaiChiBob
05-07-2004, 08:48 AM
Greetings..

Now there's a fine way to express harmony..

15 years to learn to love your own romantic illusion of yourself?

Excellent judgemental skills.. finely honed.. however, i notice that you are adept at criticism, how about contribution.. what have you to offer this dialogue, aside from sarcasm? Notice how many of us assert our points of view and exchange concepts in an effort to enhance our own experiences.. try adding some meaningful ideas to the thread..

What my experiences have taught me is to live life with unconditional sincerity, with compassion and passion.. i am not concerned with "enlightenment", heck, i'm not even sure what it is.. but, your interpretation is certainly welcome..

Seeing as you have opened the door of self-illusion, is it possible that you have some "illusions" as well?.. maybe an illusion that you possess some superior knowledge that permits you to judge the intentions and experiences of others, even those that you haven't even met or had any direct experience with except these few words here? If you do possess such knowledge could you share it? I am aware of most of my "illusions", and i'm earnestly working to see my self more clearly.. can you say the same?

I find that discussions about ideas are beneficial, and while i may criticize someone's concepts, i seldom, if ever, criticize the person themselves.. it just seems counter-productive. So, while i appreciate your observations, i question your motives.. it does give me pause to examine the comment and its value, regardless of the motives..so thanks.. but, the sarcasm, "Good job.", is pointless unless it serves your ego in some way..

Be well..

TaiChiBob
05-07-2004, 08:54 AM
Greetings..

I am honored by your remarks, however unjustified.. (humble and respectful bows>

(Note to self: Dwid gets good Christmas present this year)..

Be well my friend..

intimidation
05-07-2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by unkokusai


15 years to learn to love your own romantic illusion of yourself?

Good job.

LOL, it's all in fun.

Dwid's so called critical thinking has made him an internet critic. Everyone's a critic.

dwid
05-07-2004, 09:01 AM
Dwid's so called critical thinking has made him an internet critic. Everyone's a critic.

Just as your lack of critical thinking skills has made you a laughingstock.

intimidation
05-07-2004, 09:09 AM
Great, but I know you know nothing, regardless of what you claim to know.

Buddy
05-07-2004, 10:00 AM
And we know you're actually backbreaker

intimidation
05-07-2004, 10:01 AM
**** man, you guys, you're smart

PHILBERT
05-07-2004, 01:01 PM
No backbreaker, you just make it obvious. In fact, I found out last night with IP checking. See, moderators work together, and we will get in touch with one another to see if people who we think are someone else really are.

Unmatchable
05-11-2004, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by PHILBERT
TaiChiBob, it's not that easy. We've tried that before with some trolls. When someone comes on here who doesn't realize that backbreaker/ham hurter or whatever he is going by right now, when they fail to realize he is nothing but a troll, then they take him serious and someone must correct him. As soon as he is corrected, his mental thing clicks and he goes all psycho on us. So while it seems like it would work, to someone who does not know, he is doing serious harm. No pun intended.

so why was ralek not banned for so long? and why is Knifefighter still here?

bodhitree
05-11-2004, 09:05 AM
Philbert, I beleive you have my e-mail, please let me know if there is any way I can help.

IronFist
05-11-2004, 08:50 PM
I thought I remembered hearing that.

I ask cuz I was just flipping through the channels and I saw a guy in an orange uniform doing somg qigong or something and it said falundafa.org at the bottom of the screen. :eek:

This is USA standard Comcast cable. No freaky ass weird channels or anything. Oh, it was s.hitty quality. Like all blurry and stuff. I didn't watch it for very long, cuz championship pool was on :)

So wtf, is it coming on tv? Or was it probably like a commercial or something?

T'ai Ji Monkey
05-11-2004, 09:02 PM
Hard to say, the few Falun Dafa people I have personally met didn't fit the the profile of your average cultist.

Till the huge stink started up in China about them they were actually teaching and sharing openly at our local community centre along with other Qi-gong, Yoga, TJQ, etc programs and were highly praised and respected.

I know that part of the problem was that their followers declined standard medical care thinking that they can cure themsleves and that after a few followers died the chinese goverment stepped in and tried to do something about that.

Also I think that they ahd more followers than the leading goverment party and thus the possibility existed that they could use their followers to upset the goverment.

In the end I think everyody needs to decide for themselves if they see them as a cult or not.

Mika
05-11-2004, 09:19 PM
Here's what some users here have said about it:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29146&highlight=Falun

//mika

joedoe
05-11-2004, 09:29 PM
I am dubious about some of the views that the leader of faludafa has apparently expounded, however I am undecided as to whether it is a cult or not. From what I can tell, falun gong is not all that different to any other qigong, but as for the wider movement who can say? Some people consider Christianity to be a cult ;)

T'ai Ji Monkey
05-11-2004, 09:39 PM
Some more info about the group:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/falungong.htm

and cults in general:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cultmenu.htm

joedoe
05-11-2004, 09:48 PM
From Dictionary.com:

cult n.

1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
2. The followers of such a religion or sect.
3. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
4. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
5. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

yenhoi
05-11-2004, 10:34 PM
I think the Falun Dafa is one of the two books written by the leader. So no, its not a cult.

Some of the core elements of the Falun Gong movement definitly show signs of being a cult. Most of them are just brainwashed people who practice qigong outside.

If you read just a little of either document you will easily be able to see why some people on both sides of the coin would consider it a cult.The Qigong looks valid and similar to many other lineages.

:eek:

omarthefish
05-11-2004, 11:08 PM
The founder says he is more important that the original buddha and is personally maintaining the existence of the universe.

cerebus
05-12-2004, 12:05 AM
What? You find that hard to believe? :D :p :p :p

T'ai Ji Monkey
05-12-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by omarthefish
The founder says he is more important that the original buddha and is personally maintaining the existence of the universe.

I can introduce him to people that think the are running the whole world and some of them are heads of state. :D

Regardless of what he believes/teaches that does not neccessarily make Falun Dafa a "cult"(see links in my post above for explanation of the term "cult").

Years ago the rumours about "brainwashing by cults" have also been destroyed, again some good links in the sites I listed.

Q: Why was Falun Dafa outlawed and named a Cult in China??
A: Because the group had more members than the Communist party and thus the goverment felt threatened.

Merriam-Webster shows the following:


Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

omarthefish
05-12-2004, 01:30 AM
Well your probably right about why they were outlawed. The communist party allows for a lot more freedom of religion than most outsiders realize. Catholicism is not well tolerated for a similar reason. Not the number of Catholics but the fact that there is this guy the Pope who is simultaneously a political figure and that Catholics are supposed to regard his word as the final authority on anything. ie if he disagrees with The Party then he is right and the party wrong.

Falun Gong, from what I can tell is just another wacko cult like a million others I have bumpedinto in my years in LA and San Francisco. Pretty innocuous, intelectually weak and only possibly dangerous but it's hard to separate the fact from fiction. Example: the public immolations on Tiananmen square last year. Public protests? Or cult type self sacrifice to get to heaven quicker? Or completely faked (by the party) to help squash the movement.

I find it extremely hard to believe though that their numbers excede party membership. Last I heard they were only up to a couple million. Maybe this is an international figure? Anyways, I've yet to meet anyone who could do anything but laugh at the mention of Falun gong here. Their rep has been effectively equated to a combination of airport Hari Krishna's and the branch Davidians. People refer to them now mostly only in the context of jokes.

It's amazing what people will take seriously if it comes from the far east....and repessed by the "evil communists" no less.

lkfmdc
05-12-2004, 08:00 AM
"cult" is a word and thus can be a question of semantics

but let's look at it another way

Falun Dafa was also outlawed in BRITISH controlled HK... why you ask? Because people that did it had a funny way of waking up in the middle of the night, picking up meat clevers and KILLING family members....

I strongly suspect this might have something to do with doing the Chi Kung incorrectly, leading to brain damage...

yenhoi
05-12-2004, 08:03 AM
Even by your definition of a cult Falun Gong could be considered a cult.

They are a cult by the simple exclusion doctrine and dogma of "The Law Wheel," and "Turning The Law Wheel." Not to mention the other documents and statements of "The Teacher."

Like all groups, the people in the outer circles of the group are less extreme.

:eek:

David Jamieson
05-12-2004, 12:13 PM
the leader (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1223317.stm)

more of the leader (http://www.falundafa.org/eng/teacher.htm)

the selling points (http://www.falundafa.org/eng/index_en.htm)

why the chinese want to arrest him (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/monitoring/406958.stm)

why i personally think he's a nutcase (http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html)

cult? sure, but then what group or organization with a whack of followers isn't? pick a religion, pick a nation, pick a nationalist or a patriot and there you see teh same dynamic as "cult member".

li has co-opted qigong practice as a methodology of selling himself. millions of people have and still practice qigong all over the world that has nothing to do with li or his peculiar brand of thinking. Which, for the most part is wholly untrue and in fact dangerous to those people who are willing to follow him blindly.

But then, you can't legislate against stupidity. That is more and more apparent these days in a great deal of matters.

:(