My advice on multiple attackers....

[Grappling-Insanity]

RUN LIKE H**L!!!!! and when your tired run some more ;). But seriously all to often I hear this question and really when your up against four guys what can you do? I'd love to hear how some of you would handle the situation (hint, hint;))

[Highlander]

"To fight multiple attacker one must attack multiple times." - In the spirit of the Sphinx in Mystery Men.

:D

[Watchman]

Nah, you guys are waaaaay off.

Give each attacker a number with a pre-arranged attack to launch, then let them encircle you. Take care of each attack one at a time with the fanciest moves you can pull off, then say a lame one-liner as you walk off into the sunset.

[JerryLove]

First choice would of course be to "run" but that deserves a better answer (e.g. how to become able to run) and of course you specifically asked for a non-run answer. So I'll give both. ;-) )

Obviously what you want to avoid is people behind you. You also want to stay upright. There is a "jumping" class at my school specifically intended to get you to the outside of a group that has your surrounded by going through one of the opponents. It's trained to let you get through even the people who would normally be powerful enough to stop your charge. There is also a tactic for going for the largest opening to try to get outside. The real rule is don't stand still ;-)

Once you've got some sort of tennable position (haveing manuverd or punched outside of the circle) the fighting begins. You usually want to fight the most aggressive opponent. One good reason for this is he will be the closest. You need to keep moving. You need to not let them get behind you. I find that baiting attacks is useful. If someone gets in real close, beat them around and use them as a shield against the others. If they manage to make a good-effort escape or someone gets past them, let go and move to the next guy. Try not to get too tangled up in any one person.

If there is no way to manuver to escape, then you should look at relatively quick methods of removing opponents from the fight during this manuvering. What that is will vary based on available weapons and your skills / tactics. Mechanicl disables (busting knee caps), rendering unconsious or dead, and virtual disables (blinding) are all effective.

[Highlander]

Objective is important. It is not for you to beat multiple attacker, only to prevent them from beating you. Therefore here is my most creative and out there answer (and it might work).

1) Pop an Alca-selser (sp) in your mouth to create a frothing, foaming appearance and let it run down your chin.
2) Start scratching under the arms and arround the neck and back as if infested with fleas
3) Grunt and mutter meaningless things in a low voice
4) Pass as much gas as you can to create the illution you've crapped you pants. (Actually crapping your pants is not recommended)

It is unlikely they will even want to touch a foaming at the mouth, flea infested, crazy guy that just crapped his pants.

Well it might work .......

And I did warn you it was out there .......

Oh ....... O.K. just never mind.

[Braden]

Learn to work the outside door, both of an individual and of the group. Learn to never stop moving. Repeat.

If the group is well trained specifically to fight as a group, you're dead. Luckily, you're more likely to win the lottary than run into a such a group. Otherwise, I don't know what the big deal about multiple opponent scenarios are. I rarely see a real fight that ISN'T a multiple opponent scenario. And so many people here say they've tested their stuff on the street...

[4 Ranges]

It's all about lead tools, in 4 to 1 situation. Stay mobile. If you have to hit, use very quick eye-jabs. If it's possible for you to regain mobility, throw lead groin strikes.

most importantly: DON'T FIGHT!! You're not there to win; you're there to survive.

Never confuse sparring with fighting. One is an exchange of skill; the other an exchange of blood.

[Grappling-Insanity]

That would lead to a serious bloody beatdown man...

[SevenStar]

Eye jabs??!??! I dunno about that one. When someone is moving around, and eyejab is difficult to pull off. you want something you KNOW will get you out of the situation. not something that theoretically should. a better technique would be a bear claw. it rakes down the face. that being the case, you can poke the eyes whil raking down. I don't reccomend either in a multiple attacker situation though. Have you ever been in a fight and kicked someone in the nads? I haven't, but I've seen it, and I've been kicked there in a fight. Guess what? It didn't hurt until AFTER the fight was over and the adrenaline stopped rushing. That is another technique that I do not reccomend for the street.

"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; A fool speaks because he has to say something."

[Budokan]

Give each one a number. Then call out the numbers in sequence and take care of each one in turn with your deadly grappling moves. Muggers are usually game for something like this because they tend to be fair-minded people and don't really want to attack helpless people in wolf packs. I mean, where's the fun in that?

K. Mark Hoover

[Grappling-Insanity]

LoL like I would intentionally go to the ground in a street fight. But one with multiple partners!!! thats the dumbest thing I've heard. I think you got me mixed up with a gracie wannabe.

[oldwolf]

I clicked onto this thread several times, will I post or not, anyway here it is:

This is what has worked for me, along with a long list of high profile, well published and well known MA's.

In any group fronting you will consist of the lead man, usually the mouth but not always, his back up, one but sometimes two and then the sheep.

Once you have decided to fight, line up the lead man for your favourite realistic technique that you have drilled into a flawless groove in the kwoon, dojo, or gym. Appear submissive by body language and say something like 'Don't want no touble mate' Once you have switched off their adrenalin high ask a stupid question like 'didn't we go to school together?' for a split second they are blind as the brain focuses on the question, then knock them out one two three if needed and the sheep will scatter, those that regain their senses to quickly should be severly reprimanded by a stamp in the sternum/face etc. to encourage the rest to run faster. Thats the way it works....Trust me.

"And the crowd called out for more"

[Watchman]

Unless you run into those dangerous f**kers who actually train together to do "shakedowns" and organized attacks. Albeit, it takes a true sociopath to train to accomplish this, and true sociopath's are rare.

In this kind of situation, there is no "mouth" and there are no "sheep". If you don't get the hell out before they get you boxed or trapped, curl up into a fetal position and hope they get bored fast.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

[oldwolf]

Disagree Watchman, even for organised teams the breakdown holds true.
Curl in to a fetal ball, never, you can take my freedom but you'll never take my Wallllllettttttt! :D

"And the crowd called out for more"

[Grappling-Insanity]

It's pretty scary that ppl train to fight together in street fights IMO.

[Watchman]

G-I: yes it is. I knew some guys from Phoenix that trained together to do "takedowns" and "shakedowns" on people that owed money to drug dealers, and to do home-invasion robberies on indie meth labs.

Oldwolf: the dynamics you're talking about wouldn't work with these guys. They aren't going to approach you with the whole "We're macho and we're going to kick your ass! I'm the mouth so hit me first and the rest of my homeboys will fold." They work flanking tactics around the lead guy, and won't just stand there in abject fear while you're scooping his eye out with your thumb.

[Braden]

Every time this discussion comes up, the consensus seems to be to go for the biggest guy/leader first.

I think this is absolutely ridiculous. What gets you killed in a multiple opponent scenario is getting tangled up with someone. So your answer is to head straight for the guy who is most likely going to tangle you up?

Doesn't make any sense to me.

Also, I wouldn't go for groin, eye or similar attacks. You want something very basic which is going to take their balance and knock them back even if it doesn't work out the way you planned.

[UberShaman]

Thats why I carry a Glock 23 :)

[oldwolf]

Thats why I said usually the mouth but not always. Part of the line up process is to out flank the flankers.
The biggest problem in situations like this is tunnel vision as the cortex focuses on the percieved threat, ie misses the flanking movement.

This is a system tried and tested, not just by me and I'm still here so far.

Braden: you take out the biggest threat first then the next etc, you don't stop till there is no more threat. forget the eye jabs, groin strikes, knock outs only to jaw line.

"And the crowd called out for more"

[Braden]

I agree. But the biggest threat is no single person, it's the fact that you're outnumbed. You get rid of that threat by taking out as many as you can as quick as you can. You do that by hitting the people you know for sure you can take out fast. By definition, those are going to be the weakest. You say that taking out a "leader" will scare the others. What happens if you don't take him out so fast? After all, he is your toughest single opponent here. On the other hand, violently dropping one of the "followers" will also frighten the others, and is much more likely to happen in a manner which is in your favor.

But besides all this, you rarely get to choose who you attack. Your surroundings and the position of your opponents dictates this for you. Typically, the "leader" will by in front of you and in the middle of the "pack." This is the very last person you want to go for if you're planning on out-flanking the group.

[Highlander]

I hate to bring the law into this, but we are talking street and reality here. If one person is talking and making threats and everyone else is just standing there, you may not have a legal justification to strike anyone except the person talking sh1t. Feeling intimidated isn't justification if the person hasn't said or done anything to validate those concerns. Then again "it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" so we do what we have to, but I just thought I'd point this out. :(

[oldwolf]

What about the legitimacy of a pre emptive strike, I may be talking out a hole in my head but I believe this has a precedence in British Law, where Peter Consterdine and Geoff Thompson wre used as expert witness, and they may have cited Thatchers sinking of the 'Belgrano' as the legitimacy. But I may be mistaken. :D :D

"And the crowd called out for more"

[Highlander]

I'm no expert on the law, especially British law, but I can tell you from experience that you can't assume that just because someone is standing with an agressor, that they are going to jump in. I was faced with a situation a few years ago against three people. They were football players from the local University and any one of them could have kicked my butt. One was very verbal and tried to get me to make the first move. I didn't. After a couple of minutes his friends jumped in and talked him into going back to their table. They actually defused the situation enough for me to leave.

Looking back on it I was sure I was going to get jumped by all three, but now I think the other two would have been the ones to break it up if it had gone to blows. But what would have happened if I had just started attacking all three. And wouldn't two of them have been within their rights to claim that they didn't do anything, I just attacked them.

[oldwolf]

Good result, I think each situation has to be dealt with, and read individually, I think both morally and legally, had you considered yourself to be in a state of fear, and believed that all three were going to do you damage, you would be justified in pre emptively taking them out. had it transpired that the two buddies were only with the aggressor and not backing him, it would prove the adage 'If you fly with the crows, you get shot with the crows'

"And the crowd called out for more"

[Weapon-Maker]

I was going to answer the question,but Jerry Love answered it for me.

[Losttrak]

If there its too late to remedy the situation? Try to rip off an ear/tear his cheek open/or disfigure the nearest person in some way. Most people under the sway of the mob mentality see combat as something like in the movies. If you attempt to fair fight it will fit into the motif and they will swarm you. Once they realize the permenance of what happened to their friend, the illusion will fade.

[JerryLove]

This is an unrealistic view of mob attack. Real fights are far more chaotic than you presume. A group of people is unlikely, while focusing on getting to you, to notice what you did, whose blood, etc. Further, getting in position for what you suggest without getting massacred is not a trivial matter. I particularly oppose trying to "tear his cheek out" in any attack situation, espically a multiple-attacker one. Very easy to get a finger bit off for trying. BTW, have you ever tried? Getting some gum tearing is not that difficult (goot pain-compliance technique) but actually tearing live skin is not a trivial as your suggestion makes it sound.

[rogue]

Good stuff.

By the way, some of you guys talk as if you have a whole lot of time on your hands and a lot of room to move during a street fight. Consider yourself lucky to get one maybe two moves or shots in once it starts, and you better make them good ones. Doing anything less than a real fight stopper will get you butt stomped.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[Losttrak]

I wont rate cheek tearing on a scale if difficulty but I am pretty sure you can pop an eyeball without too much effort. Anyways, its the concept that matters. It seems that most multiple attackers are usually the opponent and his friends. Most get a little squeemish when someone gets really hurt. I know from one case that in retrospect after the first guy went down it seemed I was fighting half as many people after that. Apparently, it counted for something. Whatever it takes to even the odds...

[JasBourne]

Didn't somebody mention the "Jackie Chan defense against multiple attackers" technique on another thread? I like that one - it's simple.

1) take in the fact that you are outnumbered, smile, and RUN LIKE HELL.
2) if one of the attackers gets too close, without stopping grab whatever is handy and throw it at his face (dirt, empty soda cup, trash can, stray dog, innocent bystander - anything that will disrupt their forward movement) and RUN LIKE HELL.
3) repeat steps 1 and 2 until you've escaped.

:D

[Vankuen]

I too have read this thread for a bit before deciding to post. Its a good, yet controversial subject. But I think I will put in my two cents.

I had my first training in wing chun from my step brother who was raised in Hawaii. He lived in rough neighborhoods where everyone just about knew how to fight, martial arts and non martial artists. Also the multiple attack scenario was commonplace. So commonplace it seems that the local law enforcement wouldn't press charges against a defender if he was attacked by a group, even if one of the attacking group ended up severly injured or even dead. The fact that there was more than one attacker presented grounds to protect one's life. I can't validate what he says, but then I dont see why he would lie.

I do remember training with him, and not being able to touch him at all using both of my hands against his one. So I have no doubt he could and did handle himself on numerous occasions against his local peers. One of the things he said to me was about overpowering the attackers with sheer tenacity, or intent. Most people cower when overcome with such odds, so it's often a suprize when someone doesn't. I have seen this to be true as well.

In fact, today at work someone took out a broomstick from its base, and took an aggressive posture at me and said "I wanna see what you'd do against someone who had a staff" I smiled, and since I was next to a pile of boxes and wooden pallets, I simple grabbed the end of the staff with one hand and with the other hand took hold of some of the scrap and threw it at him, took away his oversized toothpick, and tossed it back at him. Then he said "Wait! I meant if you didnt have anything! Like if we were in an open field!"
Once again I smiled and approached him to where the staff could strike me. He stood there motionless for a moment as I smiled looking straight into his eyes...then I bursted forward a bit, and HE flinched, giving way to my tenacity and unwavering against his better odds. (then I still took away the stick and walked away...haha)

Although not the same as fighting multiple attackers, I think this was a good example that came to mind. Techques put aside, the mind is the most powerful weapon in your arsenal. Not the fists or style. The individual is always more important than any style, or technique, and that individual's capacity for fighting, will bring the outcome.

But then sometimes you're just shiat out of luck and will get pummeled. Hopefully that wont happen to any of you nice folks, or me!

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

[Ky-Fi]

Actually, this does sound like a good idea, but I have to also say that this is the funniest thing I have read on this forum in ages:

"Appear submissive by body language and say something like 'Don't want no touble mate' Once you have switched off their adrenalin high ask a stupid question like 'didn't we go to school together?' for a split second they are blind as the brain focuses on the question, then knock them out one two three if needed and the sheep will scatter"

:)

[The Willow Sword]

you get a permit you get your background checked, you hopefully pass the background check,,,you get a nice .40 sig saur carry it on you and when they come, you F@#KING SHOOT THEM!!! SCREW THE LAW! you wont be thinking of that when you are being chased and protecting your life. why does this discussion always become so scientific with "what i would do"? you have no idea what you would do,,,,,aside from all the adrenaline rushing to my gonads i would be drawing my gun and poppin away if i could not escape the *****s.
martial arts? takedowns? wing chun? come on brothers lets be real about this,,,,,if i did not have access to a weapon i would turn and tuck tail and run for my freaking life!!!! this aint the movies and it aint a steven segal movie kiddos,,,,,,.
many respects ,,,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

[JerryLove]

One where it says "unless otherwise noted, running, shooting, calling your friends, and biological warfare are unavailable"

The only way to take on multiple attackers is to have the proper training. Learning to fight from last position, never having an open center line, or fixed fighting position are some of the most important things. In other words keep moving. Also be offensive. Don't just wait there for them to attack. If someone attacks you, attack him and his buddy standing next to him just in case. It's easier to appoligize later than to heal from a beating. PJO
P.S. this is the problem with Gracie style fighting. It's not intended for multiple attackers.

[Nich Gunn]

Pull the string on your vest made of C-4. before which you should scream "IN THE NAME OF ALLAH''

[BAI HE]

And hope only one or two of four
are fast enough to catch you.
Discretion is the better part of valor.

[JerryLove]

BAI HE, that's a good suggestion. Except as lord high God of all that I survey I proclaimed (most recently in this thread on 6-10)

"unless otherwise noted, running, shooting, calling your friends, and biological warfare are unavailable"

Yes, the best option when faced with multiple attackers is to laugh at them from behind the bullet-proof glass then have one of you legions of martial-arts sorcer/zombies kill them with their eye-beams.

However, this option *may* not be available. And since that was not listed as an option (nor were things like firearms or running), it's probibly not an appropriate response.

For example, you are walking down the street with your daughter and 5 guys walk up naked with erections drooling on her. Do you think running is the best option?

So lets presume (for the sake of argument)that when someone says "how do you deal with multiple attackers" in a martial arts forum, they are a sane and sentient human being and have therefore already looked at "talk" "run" "shoot" and "get police" unless otherwise specified in their question.

[BAI HE]

I don't go to place where guys walk around drooling with erections. Not my part of town.

[BAI HE]

Short range Anatomical targets:
Groin
Knee
Solar Plexus
Instep
Striking with short kicks or straight line punching.

I would try to keep my attackers in front of me in a line if at all possible. (see Musashi's book of five rings).

Attempt to lock the first guy up with shuto-jime
or the like and use him as a shield.

I would still run at the first chance.
That's what I would generally go for. But being untested in this scenario who knows?
I'll ponder it some more and work it out in my training. Just something
else to train for.

Also the daughter thing. I don't know much about protecting a third party, but I get married Aug. 11th. and look forward to having kids. This is something I'll have to work on.

[BAI HE]

Anything goes in a real fight. 1 guy, 2 guys and household weapons, CARS BEER BOTTLES, GUNS, CAR-ANTENNAE, CARTON CUTTERS, ETC..
This is such an " IF" POST.
CHRIST, WE SOUND LIKE GRAPPLERS!!!
Are we that confident? Are we that complacent?
Let the other guys talk. Train, train & train.
I've spent 10 years in MA. I've had 2 real fights and both were very messy. LIFE IS NOT A MOVIE.
LIFE DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. YOU ARE NOT BULLETPROOF.

I'm taking up glock-fu. In NHB street fights they're probably 6000-0.

Here's an added bonus: If someone is very eager to fight, it's for a very good reason. They've got a present for you.
CMA, BJJ etc. cant give you street smarts. Adapt your art to your surroundings. In China 600 years ago people did not worry about getting shot for no reason , car-jacked or ripped of in a ponzi sceme while internet stock trading.
Apply your art to your life. If you can't your art is dead.
I love CMA because they stress this. If you have been studying for awhile and only mimic the moves of your sifu, well hell study Japanese arts instead. They make robots.
Kung-fu should be like the old pair of jeans you wear to class.

Sorry about the rant. I just may wind up being the Dennis Miller of this forum.

[oldwolf]

Ky-Fi, sounds funny .....yes, but tried and tested in the neon arena, not my system but check out... http://www.geoffthompson.com

"And the crowd called out for more"

[jimmy23]

when Ive been jumped by multiples it happend real fast. Learn to keep your feet, focus on survivng and and ifpossible, keep one close to you.

Not real helpful advice to be sure...

Only a fool hates the truth, but the world is full of fools
Karl Gotch

[lotusleaf]

we were taught to take out the weakest link in the group. Most likely the person who is just standing there, waiting for something to happen. The reason is that they are least expecting it and everyone else in the group is least expecting it. Taking out the leader means that you'd have to deal with a stronger opponent who is anticipating an attack on him and relying on his other members to jump in and help him. You could then move in on this surprise attack and take out the next guy in front of you.

[JerryLove]

Don't resurrect old posts.....

That said, your strategy, with 3 people piled on top of you, is to try to drag them across the room, even if that is walking into people, to get to the guy that's playing "keep away"?

That is a horrible idea.

[Nexus]

the best move to make is to ask any of them if they sell Life Insurance. I mean, the odds are much better then 1 vs 1, hell, 1/4 of them could be an agent, maybe more!

Before the fighting even begins, you can have an excellent life insurance plan, and even better, the attacker now has on his mind that if he beats you (to death) then his company will need to pay out big so he is more careful to leave you alive, maybe just rough you up a bit.

While your at it though, one should be cautious not to sign up for a bad plan, as your monthly rates can sometimes double after 6 months if you aren't careful. Also, don't get scammed into the insurance companies trickery by not reading that fine print. Also, if he is kind, he will give you his business card before beating your ass, so you can call him later and ask what the technique was called that he used to break your bottom 3 ribs.

Enjoy.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[omegapoint]

G.I. (no disrespect to real/former G.I.s like myself): Have you ever defended yourself against multiple attackers? If not then your opinion (or others who have never trained dealt w/multiple attackers on the street) is irrelevant. Sometimes it's best to "shush!" and learn. You can defend yourself against multiple attackers (unless they are all sport artists or experienced martial artists). I have done it and a few folks I've known in my life have too. I don't care what your coach or instructor says. Unless they have trained in a style that teaches multi-attacker defense, then it's like having a person with no medical or scientific background try to counsel you on things relating to those fields.

I'm pretty sure this is the standard grappler response, as I think my instructor Professor Caique feels like the Gracie's do. Well, I don't necessarily agree with their assessment, but I can't fault them for their attempt to persuade me. They're right. With grappling experience alone you could never defend yourself against multiple determined attacker: "I'll get this guy in a flying armbar-break his arm-, then jump up and grab another dude..." Uh-uh ain't gonna work. Wrong tools for the job! Real bujutsu is a different thing, though. My boy told him the story of when I fought off and beat down 5 racist hispanic fools at a Superbowl party a few years back (he witnessed it) and how everyone was standling idly by, while I handled bidness. Caique thought I was the exception, and then I told him the story of the 3 dudes vs. 30 (in the Philippines). They won, and I've got many witnesses to prove this (including myself). He didn't think I was lying, but I don't think he totally believed me either. Whatever, you've got your experiences and I've got mine.

'Nuff said. Believe what you want. I believe what I KNOW.

[This message was edited by omegapoint on 08-05-01 at 07:44 PM.]

[yin lion]

You would be lucky if you did bagua since it is eight trigram boxing. The tytle says it all well not all but it's an art made to fight eight people at once hence the ease in fighting one person. The idea is that more than one persons attacking at once are going to get in each others way. If you help them to get into each others way well than it will happon more often. That is also why bagua contains circle walking to get behind an attacker.

My own thoughts are to keep moving so that when the attack(s) lands you are no longer there. :eek: :eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

you must unlearn what you have learned then and only then will you be wise and have knolage

[JerryLove]

"The tytle says it all well not all but it's an art made to fight eight people at once hence the ease in fighting one person."

Bagua is a good multiple-attacker art. Your statement above shows a really delusional view of fighting.

[wingchunwsl]

didn't take the time to read all the posts so maybe someone said this... but:

i think a good way is to take one guy, get him in a choke hold or sumthin and use him as a hostage sorta. you could use him as a shield and shove him into someone else and follow up quickly and hit him too.

it's worked for me a couple of times but it was against three guys and it wasn't a life or death situation

[Vankuen]

Now I really dont know what I would actually do. I dont think anyone does till the situation presents itself.

Hopefully my training will prove to have been worth all the effort, and whatever I do, coupled with some good luck, gets me out of there alive.

But strickly on a techniques standpoint, which is what most people want with questions like this, I have always been taught to be fluid. Think of your self as the contents (water) of an everchanging container (like maybe putting water in a plastic bag). The reason I say it like that is because the container wont necessarily stay the same. It will change as much as you do...and you have to simply react to it, based on your theories of techniques, be it from aikido, wing chun, BJJ, karate, whatever.

From where I stand, I would most likely use striking and redirecting arts, as they are a bit faster and allow for more mobile fluidity. I would only go after the ones that stand between me and my escape route. SO for me, I would most likely try one beat "simultaneous attack and defense" tactics, like maybe slap blocks with straight hits, or stop kicks to the legs as I passed them, always twisting and turning and moving with the energy till I found my way out.

Hopefully that wasnt too vague for anyone.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"

[Jeff Liboiron]

one day i was walkin to the mail box witch is like a 1 minute walk from my house. A car pulls up, 4 guys get out and come after me, i'd only been traing in martial arts for like 2 months!! (and i'm glad i had) i was scared straight. i gave 2 of the guys throat and eye strikes, and got the hell out!!!!!!!!!!

True story (unfortunatley)

[lotusleaf]

Do not take the leader out first. Usually the leader is all talk, so they are totally relying on some punk in his group to make the first move. Take out the group by going for the passive group member who is waiting to jump in as soon as you go down. It might take everyone by surprise enough that you can deliver the next blow to the leader (snap kick to groin or inner thigh).

This is not the case if he pulls out a weapon. A bladed weapon will have their adrenalin pumping and they won't think rationally. So in turn, their reactions become hesitant but erratic because he is debating wether he will mince you or dice you. The best time to attack is when he is just pulling out the weapon. Then move on to the next armed target and then run if you have the chance to.

In both cases you wanna stay up on your feet and don't stop moving.

[Nutt'nhunny]

Earn, respect, run away.

Or start ripping nuts and doing death kills, nothing in between.

Or just do TKD kicks.

[joe yang]

As a prison guard, I train regularly to fight in a team. I get into a lot of fights, at least a couple hundred in the last several years, a lot of them on tape, so we can study and learn. At the school where I train, senior students train live, no holds barred, no pads, against multiple attackers. This is an annual, special training weekend, not our usual drill. I'm up to three on one. Multiple attacker, hand to hand fights are not like anything else. Throw things, kick, punch, knees, elbows, sweep, throw, fall, roll, stomp and in general use every dirty trick you ever knew and chances are everyone is going to get hurt.

[umgong]

In the early 60's, we talked of how to fight multiple opponents, using standard m.a., but we were inexperienced so we tried to solve the problem as we saw it with solutions that we knew.

In a real fight...at best we'd get a standoff. Then they'd get their second wind and their anger to get revenge...we lost.

we tried ferocity...overpowering chain attack on one or two opponents...Quite often we could knock both of them down...but we committed too much only to get taken out from behind by the others.

Then we studied Miyamoto Musashi movies...so we attacked one attacker, break free of the circle, run a little until one person caught up to you, then you fought that one person...when the group caught up to you, then you ran again. Worked some of the time.

We tried one really hard hit on each opponent...no good...too scattered, couldn't give enough damage to each opponent.

I know one guy, we got in a fight with a bunch of guys at a out of a way coffee shop...we were outnumbered at least 3 to one (there were three of us)...I went outside to fight because I was learning White Crane and some Choi Lay Fut...big movements at the time, I needed room to fight. One of my other friends got knocked unconscious, and the third friend was a Golden Glove champion...he put his back against the wall and near a hallway so only one or two could come at him from the front...he used jabs...he knocked out five guys before they quit.

A group of us instructors from different disciplines tried for several years...nothing decisive other than first catch them off guard...use element of surprise...look submissive or compliant (i.e. "Okay, I'll give you my money." )than pick your target, walking up to the person...as he reached out to take your wallet...you attack that person...overpower that person to breakout of the circle...you have a few seconds. Intend to rollover this person...if he is too strong, you must look for an opening(air space) and break clear before the BG's can bring their group weight to bear on you.

In a court of law, you have disparity of force and you were in fear for your life. Thus you were justified in using self-defense...just as important as knowing fighting techniqes that work in combat, you must be able to verbally state clearly your fear and their actions to justify your actions.

We often worried about who threw the first punch...something that could make or break your case in a court of law....you can "sucker your opponent" into making the first move. Once you learn to do that, you have less worries...just never articulate that you drew your opponent into throwing the first punch or began the first aggressive move. All you know, is he threw the first aggressive action.

Sorry about the rambling here...the subject matter is kind of broad.

Let me pause at this juncture...if you wish for me to write some more of what we learned, please let me know....does this help? Or is this too much? Or did I go off tracktrack? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[umgong]

VanKuen,
In Hawaii, we always had the attitude that if you practiced the m.a. that you had to be able to fight at some point. /What helped many of us to develop that attitude was the fact that many of us were brought up in or around "bad areas," so we were tested often.
Also, with many cultures there, there were many opportunities to try out your m.a..
Also, in Hawaii, in the 60's we were brought up by an unwritten law, that we fought to defeat, but not to maim or seriously injure..often when your opponent was down, we let them up. We did not go in there to "finish" him off.
We were more willing to take a chance and duke it out knowing that.

[Nin-Po-Dragon]

Four guys could be taken down with FAST CHINESE GRAPPLING! Shiao Chiao! Or an array of high kicks would sort them out!

[joe yang]

My advice on multiple attackers: Try to rush in all at once, so you distract your victim, but don't get in each others way, then take turns and share.