Mantis Seminar Report

[Oso]

Greetings,

Just wanted to share news of a very succesful seminar held in Asheville NC.

yu shan and several of his students came to town and worked with my students last weekend.

The first night we did many 2-person arm conditioning drills after going through a superb dynamic warm up routine. We also did some tam tui 2 person drills. We are still enjoying the many bruises from that night.:)

On the second day we were taught the 8 Step form, Qishou. Both solo and 2-person versions. My students and I are very stoked about all of the new information and have been working hard, drilling the form every day this week.

All of us at Asheville Martial Arts want to thank yu shan and his students for their time and we look forward to many more trainig sessions with them and the rest of the Pong Lai family.

[MantisifuFW]

Oso,

Yu Shan and the rest Pong Lai organization are an excellent example of what we hope starts happening throughout Tanglang. The sharing of information and quality technique for the improvement and edification of all. Their members have supported the Quarterly, worked with other schools and been willing to assist or share whenever asked.

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

I echo Sifu Cottrell's post and congratulations Oso in having a successful seminar with Yu Shan and his crew. This sounds like the beginning of a beautiful friendship. Hope there's more to come. BTW, how do you feel about a traditional form such as the Qishou? I am also curious as to your impression of Yu Shan or Ponglai's approach to traditional Kung Fu training.

Just comparing notes so to speak, hope you don't mind.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS. Great going Yu Shan in promoting Tanglangquan. :)

[Oso]

Thanks, Sifu Cottrel and Mantis108.

It was a great weekend. I feel that in addition to the good training some friendships were started.

I love Qishou, can't wait for the rest of it to unfold down the road.

While training the form I am able to draw from the movements in the long fist forms I have learned in the past ( tam tui, lan bu and gung li. pardon any incorrect spelling ) so there weren't any completely alien movements. The exact movements and flavor were different but I feel there is a correlation.

The Pong Lai approach is, imo, a very good one. I spent my first 7 years of training doing hung gar in a private setting with a very similar approach. The last several years of my training have been pretty hard physically but for a couple of reasons, not as hard. I look forward to returning to where I began, so to speak.

I mean, if you're not bangin some then you might as well just do yoga.

[bung bo]

really rockin seminar. i'm glad you liked the stuff, Oso. i like Pong Lai's way of traditional training. stances, repitition(and i really mean repitition) of the techs and apps to make them second nature, etc. i look foward to training with you and your students again.

Sifu Cotrell and Mantis108--thanks for the compliment. i think it's important to get out and make friends and contacts in our gong fu commnity. i'm 100% behing the Quarterly. very well-written.

[yu shan]

Well, first of all, I would like to thank of course, Oso for his interest in Mantis. I appreciate your willingness to expand your knowledge and to enhance what you already know. I believe you are going to be a good friend and gong fu brother. Thank you for having me and my student`s over for this exchange and what looks like a true bond. You, Shrmu and your students were the utmost hosts! The training site was great, and the cook-out Saturday night was special. And folks, Shrmu`s Art is sensational! I`ve placed my order :)

This seminar was solely an introduction to what we do. A good warm-up, followed by a few Mantis kicks, basic and with hopping. Of course some arm conditioning, sorry I have no names for, Shrfu Scolaro doesn`t give me the fancy names for some things. He just says do this, and kicks my a$$. One of the cond. drills was pulled out of Beng Bu first road. And our way of Go Lou Tsai, heard whispers they knew a version of this, but it is universal. Something about Shr ZhengZhong`s approach makes stuff differant. A kicking drill I saw Tainan Mantis do....folded into the sun and moon concept. Then Tam Tui exercise #1 with the ling-side. This might not sound like much, but there is the intensity factor to pencil in:)

Saturday we did a recap of Friday, always fun pounding on fresh bruises. Then on to 7-hands, I know a very basic form. Oso knew this is a beginner entry level form. But when you put the energy Shr ZhengZhong puts into a form/exercise, it makes even this basic form explosive and fun.

Oso in my book is going to fit right in with what we do, he is a natural. And Shrmu will pop you too, I came home with a trophy over a rib!

Last but not least, xie xie to Mantis 108 and MantisfuFW, Giants in our MA community and conductor`s of Mantis Gong-Fu .

Peace,

Yu Shan

[18elders]

glad you enjoyed the seminar with yushan and you were open enough to see what we do. You will be in good hands with Yu, i have spent many and hour with the pedal to the medal training with Yu, very intense person and has more energy than me and i am younger!
Look forward to meeting you and your group and you guys will be in for some great traditional mantis training.

[Oso]

yu shan, thanks for the kind words.

18elders, yu shan mentioned you over that weekend. I look forward to training with you. And, you are most correct about his energy level.

bung bo, rockin' it was !! see you in Oct.


I have a question about 7 Hands.

The video footage of GM Wei on the new Babu TL site is amazing. It is wonderful to see moving images of the sifu's from the past.

Could it be said that the manner in which he playes 7 Hands in that clip is due to a much more subtle use of fajing gathered over his many years of experience?

The reason I ask is that, IME, you would teach beginning students larger movements to help them understand the mechanics and power generation better. Over time you would guide them towards smaller, subtler movements as they develop fajing to a finer degree.

thanks

[18elders]

yes, you are correct. over time your jing movement is more subtle

[Ming Yue]

Yu Shan,
I wanted to take this opportunity to tell you again how much I enjoyed the seminar. I am honored by the knowledge and spirit you shared, as well as by your kindness.

Everyone at Asheville Martial Arts joins with me in thanking you for a very valuable experience. We all have been absolutely fired up since that weekend.

I very much look forward to our next meeting and continued training!


-C

[Tainan Mantis]

Nice to see a union of two branches of Mantis.
Hats off to Yushan and Oso.

Oso,
Like 18 Elders said, over time the movement becomes more subtle.
How GM Wei did the movement when he was our age I don't know.
But I have heard stories directly from his students of how skilled he was at knocking people down.

You may have noticed that when beginners do the moves the foot have a hard time staying rooted.
After doing the moves so long the body at one moment floats and the next moment is stuck to the earth.
When this happens the power sometimes looks less even though it is much more.

The 7 Hands form has movements directly from the "8 Steps" of GM Wei's style.
This includes the right back hand at the beginning of the form.

This is done by him in a Tong Bei method of power which is much different from other styles of Mantis.
Hard to describe, but apparant when you see it.

[Oso]

Thanks Tainan, but at most I would say I was a broken branch. :)

Thanks for the insight. I was surely not implying that GM Wei had no power only remarking on the fluidity and apparent sublety of movement.

I'm loving this form. It has alreay filled in a blank or two and I'm starving for more.

[mantis108]

First of all, thank you Yu Shan for the detailed report and the kind words. Really appreciate it.

Here is an old post that Tainan shared here before concerning the 7 hand.

<<< Tainan Mantis wrote:

Chi sho [re: Qishou] is one of the very first 2 man sets I learned from my teacher.
Since I had been practicing under different teachers of varied styles for about 7 years prior and no one ever even mentioned that a one man form can be linked together into a two man form i felt, at the time, that I had reached a new level of enlightenment. Or a new level of understanding of the purpose of doing forms(that feeling later went away).

Since this form is so short and doesn't require tremendous physical exertion we spent a lot of time repeating it over and over.

Since our solo sets are most likely identical you should find my explanation close to yours if not the same.

1.Opponents square off in "mantis grabs cicada posture"
original form:step to right stance right back hand
Defender: left stance left block

O:stealing hand technique right Deng pu throw
D:shift stance to left, left punch face

O: Left knife hand sprout kick technique
D:step back to left stance, left go-lo-tsai

O: right knife hand sprout kick technique
D: step back to right stance, right go-lo-tsai technique

O:step to left stance right go-lo- over hand palm(pi zhang)
D:left high block

O:left grab(D's left high block) using stealing hand method, twist step with right folded elbow technique(Stacey, is this were you apply the groin strike?)
D: step out before O can grab hair and deliver knee to face technique(or Stacey's groin strike).

O: right side kick before D gets out of range(this and the prevoius O technique are taught as a basic left and right exercise in Secret door PM before students learn any forms)
D:left stance block side kick

O:right stance right back hand
D:left stance left block.
Now I become O and step forward into right stance right back hand

O: now I become D and step back into left stance left high block

Of interesting note is how we learned variations to this after we had practiced countless times.

First. defender, in beginning of form "mantis grabs cicada posture" retreats one step when O attacks so that he does a right stance right block insted of left.

This means that O performs the same movement but the following throw is now a deng ta throw as opposed to a deng pu throw.

D must perform the rolling hand method to escape and the 2 man form continues normally

Second, when defender blocks O's sidekick he uses O's forward momentum as his opportunity to go behind and strike the back of O's head.
O counters with grabbing cicada throw.
D escapes and 2 man form continues.

After this the next set of changes bring the opponents into the methods contained in Lipi 2 man.

There are several interesting tidbits of info that can be gleaned from this short set
1. How a form with 4 throws becomes a form with six throws

1.how to step behind opponent and the counter to such a technique

2.How a fixed pattern exercisecan have the changes added so that a student learns to be ready for other techniques
I recall on another thread some of my brothers arguing about how useful this method is. This short exposition isn't meant as way to convince, just food for thought.

In my experience ;even when doing a short three move exercise at top speed and power, both people already know what is coming and yet you still get hit from those techniques.

In this morning's class I was doing the short 2 man set with the groin kick(about one third the end of lipi) with a girl who has been practicing this technique with all her brothers and sisters for several months.
Even though I knew the kick was coming she still nailed me(I'm okay now as I managed half a block). So when we mix up the techniques it becomes imperitive that we keep that groin area blocked and also that a weaker opponent such as her learn how to apply the technique so well that even her shr fu is filled with the fear of God.>>>

I would like to add that the amazing thing about this form is that a lot of the mantis techniques can be added in for training applications. It is by far one of the best short forms (2 men forms) I have the fortune to come across.

Mantis108

[Oso]

I'm slowly working my way through the archive's but hadn't found that one yet. thanks.

In my prior training we did not have any two man versions of forms. After starting to look outside of the very small town I was living in, I found other ma peeps talking about two man sets and in an effort to replicate the essence of that I came up with a drill I call 'counter for counter'. (stole the name from arnis). It is a free form two person drill.

A: initiates an attack following through to the target but only landing lightly.

B: defends against that attack and counter attacks with control.

this is Step 1. repeat as often as needed till it can be done full speed.

then A counters B's last attack and counter attacks.

This is Step 2.

Step 1 and 2 are repeated in sequence till up to full speed.

Step 3 has B countering and counterattacking A's last attack.

And so on.

During class I will have partners try to get 6 or more steps along and then really work on getting the entire sequence up to full speed.

Sometimes I will let two students work on the same series for a couple of months, building it up to around 30 steps and practicing the series over and over again.

I've done this with limitations as to types of attacks and w/ chin na.

It's a pretty cool drill.

[yu shan]

It is amazing what you can pull out of a basic form!

[Oso]

ok, since this thread sorta turned into a thread about qishou I'll add this sparring anecdote from tonight.

I train jujitsu(japanese style not brazilian) with a local karate school. Good bunch of guys, no egos and they train hard. Best local option for mixing it up with some fighters.

so, I goes there tonight after work to see who's around and end up doing some sparring with one of their brown belts. He and I were the only people around.

ok(here's where the qishou comes in) we're sparring around and i'm in a right lead and he's in a right lead and w/o thought I pretty much do the move right before the armbar that is followed by the sidekick at the very end of the run.

I take my lead (right) hand and bridge to his lead (right) hand.
I stick pretty good and he shuffles back to try and back out.
I follow with some quick shuffleing and then take the full left step forward
and exchange my left hand for the right and jam his arm to his ribs
and follow up with the right palm to the face.
at this point I added a foot sweep and down he went.

it was only after that I said to myself 'hey, that wuz dat move from qishou'

[bung bo]

right on, dude. good to hear that new stuff is becoming part of your repetoire.

[yu shan]

Let me get this straight. You drove to New York last weekend, competed and went five and O. A task in itself, then drove back to NC, worked a condenced work week, taught your gong-fu classes. And you just dropped by on Friday night to see who is hanging around? And had to go off and put the Mantis to the guy! You got the curse man! :)

Show this execution to me when I see ya

[Oso]

yu shan, you make it sound like more than it was:)
but yea, I'm bit.

This guy I was sparring was just not used to stick and follow at all. He should have taken a full step back or angled to the side instead of just trying to shuffle straight back.

[yu shan]

Oso, you are a humble man.