Tradition is What?

[Vash]

Just like seeing my name in bold ;)

I've got a question for youse traditionalists (not technique related):

1. Do you/your school use the dress of whichever culture birthed your art?

2. Do you/your school use the 'jargon' of said culture when identifying actions, techniques, et al?


I answer yes to both of these. No, another question, if yes . . .
why?

Not to offend anyone (particularly those with whom I study) but I am in America. I don't pronounce the Japanese terminology so much as I butcher it and defile its grave. I don't look all that sexy, or feel all the loose, in the traditional karate gi. So, one day, I wondered to myself, "why are we borrowing the culture when what we study is the martial art?"

Lord knows I couldn't tell an Okinawan or Japanese student the technique I was going to do. Better to just show 'em.

Just sleepy after full-store inventory. Talk amongst yourselves.

Peace.

[Surferdude]

Yes to both, I can say some japanese techniques, and i do wear a gi(if thats what you mean by dress)...But mostly we only use the technique name in Japanese, like mawashi-geri, or oi-tsuki.

We dont say the dojo kun in japanese though...

So no we dont boroow the tradtion of the culture,just the tradition of the martial arts, the way that Gichin Funakoshi taught

[Former castleva]

"1. Do you/your school use the dress of whichever culture birthed your art?"

Gi is solely practical!

[Sho]

In my case, yes to both.

I believe it's very respectful towards the ancestors to pass on the tradition and to train accordingly. Even though the world is undergoing constant changes, we mustn't forget the past, for it is the past that defines the present.

[Former castleva]

"I believe it's very respectful towards the ancestors to pass on the tradition and to train accordingly. Even though the world is undergoing constant changes, we mustn't forget the past, for it is the past that defines the present."

Just to heat it up a little,do you think that it is absolutely necessary to do this? I mean,of course it is necessary to train "accordingly" but to preserve culture..?
Your reply has a historical tone to it,what do you mean by ancestors? :)

[Sho]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Just to heat it up a little,do you think that it is absolutely necessary to do this? I mean,of course it is necessary to train "accordingly" but to preserve culture..?
Your reply has a historical tone to it,what do you mean by ancestors? :) Well, obviously people have their own opinions on these things, and I believe that it is respectful to pass on the tradition that was once passed on to you and your teacher, even if the past masters were no longer in charge of things (deceased). In a society like China, family is very important and it is equally important to abide by the family tradition and to pass it on to the next generation as a heritage. Other cultures take it differently and some are not as strict with tradition as others. It's highly dependent on cultural backgrounds, so there cannot be a single universal code.

[Sho]

Oh, and with 'ancestors' I meant past masters, originators, predecessors, etc. Whatever you want to call them. ;)

[Former castleva]

Thank you for a careful reply.

[Laughing Cow]

1.) No.
Tracksuit pants and T-Shirt for us, TJQ suit for demoes only.

2.) Yes.
It helps when we got our annual get-together, not everybody speaks each others tongue but the terminology remains the same thus confusion is avoided.

[Kempo Guy]

1. Do you/your school use the dress of whichever culture birthed your art?

YES. We wear Keiko Gi and Hakama. For formal occasions we wear a Kimono style uwagi.


2. Do you/your school use the 'jargon' of said culture when identifying actions, techniques, et al?

Yes.

Why? Because many of the principles can not be properly conveyed in English. The school I study, being a Koryu Bujutsu(old style Japanese MA) is very steeped in the tradition and culture of Japan.


Just to heat it up a little,do you think that it is absolutely necessary to do this?

YES.

KG

[Former castleva]

"YES. "

Because- :) ?
I´m not demanding an explanation,but if you´d like to point out why it is necessary OUTSIDE of personal/common preference,I´d like to hear.

[Vash]

We would be very interested in why you feel keeping the cultural aspects of your art are necessary.

Oh, ttt.

I feel that the only things necessary to keep, at least from a cultural stand point would be the names of the forms (if any) in your system.

Besides, most of the karate students/sensei I know use purely Japanese terminology when referencing techniques/actions in karate. Which makes only a bit of sense to me, as some of the terms (such as the numbers. God, why must we count in Japanese? I'm American! I butcher the English language enough as it is!) are different in Okinawa and Japan.

That is, if you're doing an Okinawan-based art.

Were I to start my own school today (thank God I can't, don't have to) I'd require comfortable workout clothes, belt ranks could be worn, not necessary, no bowing in/out, no counting in Japanese/Okinawan, no bowing at beginning/end of kata, minimum use of foreign terms.

But, maybe I'm an @$$hole and a Jingoist.

Sue me.

[Sho]

People can be very different. :D

[Kempo Guy]

Sorry for the delayed response. Been traveling (work related) and didn't have much time to get on the forums. :)

Ok, why did I answer yes in whether or not it's absolutely necessary to keep the cultural aspects of the art intact?

That’s a pretty good question. My personal opinion is that foreign budoka (I’m speaking of strictly traditional Japanese arts as that is my primary study) should make a serious effort to understand or at least familiarize oneself with Japanese etiquette as well as language if they wish to be taken seriously by seniors in their respective arts.

I feel that the study of budo is more than the study and memorization of physical techniques, but rather the study and preservation of a cultural “treasure” (art). This study should include language, etiquette, history (at least as it relates to the art you study), and of course technical application of your art. Also, imho to not educate oneself about the culture and etiquette from your arts country of origin limits ones ability to properly interpret the original intent and meaning of ones chosen art.

A final note, I mentioned earlier in the thread a lot of the Japanese terminology as it pertains to budo does not translate accurately into English. There may be multiple meanings and implications associated with the particular terminology and it will not do it justice to simply translate it to English as it may diminish the original idea presented.

So YES, I feel one should keep the ‘trappings’ of tradition intact.

KG

[Vash]

KG:

Dang good response. As relates to your area of study, that is an excellent reason.

For me, I wish to "preserve" certain cultural aspects of my art, as it is Okinawan. I feel, though, that exchanging those Japanese aspects which were added to it would be a good idea in America.

Again, excellent post.

[shaolinarab]

interesting, i've noticed that whenever a japanese stylist posts a thread about tradition none of the CMA partake in the discussion. weird. anyway, as a SDer, yes, we also wear the gis to commemorate tradition, the tradition being of our great grandmaster fleeing china for indonesia and then giving an outward japanese appearance to the kung fu he was teaching in order to avoid the discrimination Chinese faced there at the time.

there are some SD schools that prefer to just use the chinese sashes and 'tai chi' uniforms, but most of the schools use the gis for the external curriculum and allow the tai chi outfits for the internal students.

as for names, we learn both chinese and english names, in addition to the japanese terms for a few things.

i strongly believe that is important to learn the original names for techniques because it fosters not only learning of the art's original language, but also provides a medium of communication across borders to discuss and research the history and philosophy behind techniques, without which the practioner would be missing out on a large part of the martial arts.

all the other cultural mannerisms (bow, salute, etc) are preserved because as several have said, we are studying a traditional martial ART (which implies a cultural element), as opposed to some elite/combat fighting systems that just focus on the martial aspects. but even some of them will depict the teachers in (western) military fatigue or pants!

[Starchaser107]

new avatar ...heh heh

on the matter of tradition.
all i have to say is... what do you call it when tradition evolves, because it happens. belt wearing as rank isnt an ancient tradition so to speak but a modern decision

so when you speak of traditions , what do you mean. ancient ones or modern ones...?

[Vash]

SA:

I see your point. But, this ain't really a blanket statement, just my feelings on the arts, for myself, to really feel like I am growing and trully expressing myself in martial arts,I need my art to be a part of my culture. Certainly don't mind having certain obvious roots to Okinawa (just an aside; most toudi/karate students differentiate between Japanese and Okinawan arts, even the different types of karate) as that is where the art came from. But, I am practicing this, and am rather emersed in the American culture.

ST107:

By tradition . . . hoom . . . good point. Darn You! :mad:

In my dojo, and my style in general (I guess) we use many Japanese terms, customs, and dress which I find . . . silly.
I am doing nothing more than a disservice to the Japanese language in my horrible mispronunciation of terms, I look and feel uncomfortable in the Gi (top, at least) and the culture recieves a wound every time I bow facing an opponent.

I feel I'm repeating myself, as I really don't have a whole lot to say on the subject. I am most certainly saying "bad" to those martial arts practitioners who use the customs of their art's origin, but it ain't gonna fly for me. This is a part of me, and though it came from another country, so did just about every thing else in this d@mn nation. For me, the art is in the understanding and expansion of the self. It's hard enough for a man to be honest with someone else; I don't wish to add any more difficulty in being honest with myself.

[/overanalyzing]

[blooming lotus]

kg

very nicely put. that is exacetly how I see it and why I have only yesterday arrived in China (cma being point of study)

It absolutely goes without saying that to shirk the cultural aspect of your ma you are also shirking wholistic understanding of that art, as in how and why it was developed progressively,

from what historical sociological objective and perspective


.....without which you really have no idea what the hell they are really describing ( which is why I and many other traditional cma practioners consider non-internal art practice incomplete and comparitively ineffective)

[Kempo Guy]

Vash,

Thanks for the kudos. I had a few days to think about my response... ;)


As for your comments: Were I to start my own school today (thank God I can't, don't have to) I'd require comfortable workout clothes, belt ranks could be worn, not necessary, no bowing in/out, no counting in Japanese/Okinawan, no bowing at beginning/end of kata, minimum use of foreign terms.

I know where you are coming from. However, if you were not change these things, i.e. taking out the cultural components of the art, I would no longer call it Karate/Toudi, but rather call it "Vash's combative concepts" or whatever...

You also said:

For me, the art is in the understanding and expansion of the self.

I agree completely. I think someone would be hardpressed to say they study old Japanese MA (let's say swordsmanship for this example) for self-defense. :D

FWIW, I personally study these arts for a couple of reasons, one of them being what the Japanese call "Ningen Keisei", character building. The main principle being perseverance, i.e. never giving up even when discouraged. So in essence, your training is about unceasing training... How you practice the art rather than what one practices, is the primary purpose of training.


Starchaser107,
I'm of the understanding that the art evolves, not necessarily tradition. In this case, tradition means that there is a cultural continuity in customs, social attitudes as well as the technical and linguistic aspects of (your) chosen art, whether it's Asian, European or a Russian art...

I agree with you on the belt wearing issue (along with the Dan/Kyu system) and that it's not an 'ancient' tradition. As you know it is something Jigoro Kano used as part of his educational approach of teaching his newly created art, Judo. And I think the American culture has added to this by creating a plethora of colors and 'stripes' in true "commercial spirit". :rolleyes:

As an example, one of the arts I study has a direct traceable lineage of almost 400 years (it was founded in 1615). The art has changed slightly over the years in that there have been components added into the system, which was not part of the teachings of the founder. However, these changes have been documented and taught with the understanding that it was not part of the original teachings...


blooming lotus,
Thanks. I agree with you completely! I also spent some time in Asia studying MA (primarily Japan) and also went to Taiwan on a couple of occasions to train in Neijia.

One of the primary reasons for me taking up the practice of traditional Japanese MA was based on my interest in Hoplology, the study of the evolution and development of human combative behavior.

BTW, where in China are staying? I'll be going over to Shanghai in January for a short trip.


Sorry for the long post everyone!
KG

[Starchaser107]

Vash,
also I can't really comment on the "uniform" for CMA practicioners, we don't really have a Gi problem so to speak. Our uniform fot those who still dont know is traditional chinese clothing, cause thats what people used to train in back then. You'll find kungfu schools tending to have a T-shirt/Tank Top, and sweat pants type of vibe, which is really comfortable I might add, so I have no problem with it. and you will also find the traditional chinese clothes that are referred to as "silk pajamas" by some :cool:, also comfortable , but , I feel wierd as a black man walking among chinese dressed like that if i'm in public :confused: . j/k.
Anyways I think Gi's are cool but hey hthats just my opinion and I've never worn one.

Another Question 4 u :

If you want to omit so much of the japanese culture from your karate why not just do american kickboxing? or do you really like forms that much?

[Vash]

KG:


. . . why not call it "Vash's combative concepts" or whatever

I think I would make an obvious name change, but nothing drastic. Probably along the lines of Isshinryu Boxing or some such. As my opinion stands now, most of the Japanese linguistic and cultural elements I'd probably drop, as they do nothing for the martial learning. I'm not of the mind to start my own style. Aside from the cultural things, I'd only be changing the curriculum and training methods. Natural progression of a combative art, or art in general 'swhat I think.

For character building, the workout itself should do for discipline and perserverance what the cultural aspects are (I guess) intended to do. I'm not of the mind of making whomever I work out with a well-disciplined fighter. That's up to the practitioner.

ST107:

Why not do American Kickboxing? Well, I'm not as durable as most of those guys for one. :eek: Besides, I like the fluidity and adaptability of Isshinryu. Nothing really which can't be applied, given the right circumstances.

Please remember, these are the words of a man on the gimp.
Not currently the most dilligent of training men in the world.

[Vash]

On second thought, I may just start my own style . . . on the INTERNET! I shall be Dai Soke/Da Shifu of Isshindo Saolim Gong Fu! It has it's roots in the ancient art of Forum-Fu!

200 Posts, Bizzatch! Pimp on It!!!

[Laughing Cow]

Vash.

For me tradition is very important, it helps me understand a lot of things.

If you really want to understand something away from your culture you need to get involved into the tradition and culture of what you are studying.

I used to think that the I-Dan ranking system was a bunch of crappola, till I met and got to know the japanese culture.

Same thing with the inner door students in CMA, it totally makes sense when seen in context with the culture.

Same way with learning a foreign language, you can spend a few years at Uni learning it. First time you are in a native environment and need to rely on it you will scratch your head and curse your inability to use it.

Tradition is important as it is part of everything that we do, may it be carving a thanksgiving turkey, or whatever.

Take the tradition away and all you got left is a physical action (ergo carving a turkey), but you lost the "why" of it.

So if I as a non-US guy want to understand thanksgiving I need to study the culture and history behind it.
If I don't do that I will follow a custom I don't understand and the action has lost it's true meaning.

I got a completely different view on CMA & JMA after having lived in asia for a few years.

Just rambling.

[Vash]

LC:

Good point.

But, for me, just because I would not practice certain aspects of the culture from which my martial art came, does not mean I will lack a fundamental understanding of the art. How could it? There are only so many ways to punch, to kick.

I do not understand how a culture which produces a martial art has the only way of "truly" understanding said art. If I practice an art which originated in Okinawa using American cultural aspects such as no Gi, no belts,, minimum of Japanese lexicon, aside from the culture, what have I lost? I still have the kata.

To find my meaning while this virus is still staring at me from my computer, I will site the Okinawan martial artists who developed Toudi. The had an indiginous art, and it was molded with certain styles of Chinese Kung Fu. Some of these early masters went to China to study, yet when they returned to Okinawa, they taught in an Okinawan cultural fashion. H. Now, did they lose something of the art? Yeah, it was different, adapted to fit there understanding of fighting.. It is not that they knew any more or les than the Chinese martial artists, they just went about it in a different way.

How is that any different from a modern-day martial artist teaching his style in a non-Japanese fashion?

Just a few morning thoughts. Breakfast time.

[Laughing Cow]

Vash.

To a certain degree you are right.

But those okinawans did NOT claim to teach a Chinese MA, the same way Funakoshi did not claim to teach an okinawan art.

Certain aspects and insights will always be lost when an art is transplanted into a new surrounding, which will naturally differ depending on the new location/culture.

Simply look at the debates if asian MA are involved or not with religion.
Many japanese practice BOTH buddhist & shinto rituals and get married in a "christian" ceremony and it is not a problem or contradiction of either faith for them.

If you transplant a JMA into another setting call it kempo or similar to differentiate it from the source.
Example:
Shorinshi Kempo is bassically shaolin kungfu with "religious" & japanese trappings(Dogi, Ranks, etc). Why is it called a religion, because they can get a tax-break because of it. ;)

Is it Shaolin Kung Fu no not any longer, is it a JMA no it isn't.

Japanese use "kempo" do identify arts that still acknowledge their chinese roots, many JMA used to be kempo-arts.

Hence, lets say Chen Tai Ji Quan is often refered to as Tai Kyoku Kempo, whereas Tai Kyoku Ken is often used to refer to "health" orientated or japanised flavours of Tai Ji Quan.

A friend of mine was told that his art qualified as Koryu art as they still taught the martial application, even though it was a Chinese MA.

Confused yet??

Even most japanese can't understand it either as they have lost/forgotten a lot of traditions and roots.

As for not truly understanding an "art", or similar.

I will NEVER understand what it means to be an American, the same way you will NEVER understand what it means to be british, muslim or whatever.

There are aspects to anything you cannot teach or learn, you can try to understand them but you will never truly know or be part of them.

You can live for 50 or 60 years in China and some aspects of chinese life and culture will always evade you.

Rant over.

[Laughing Cow]

Forgot one example:

Tell a Chinese or Japanese to use Qi or Ki during an IMA lesson and he will never think twice or question what it is or if it even exists.

The concept is an integral part of their culture, the same way I doubt that you will see many Japanese issue a Ki-Ai the same way it is done in US competitions.

The Ki-Ai is a perfect example of a totally misunderstood concept by most westerners that practice JMA, in reality it is closer to CMA and internal methods.

Cheers.

[Vash]

Gotcha.

Were I to teach (and again, thankfully I am too young and a bit too crippled) I would be claiming to teach an Okinawan-based art, not a purely Okinawan thing.

It's evolution, baby, Yeah!

[Kempo Guy]

Vash,
Although LC did a pretty good job commenting on your thoughts. I'd like to add some of my own thoughts on this subject.


just because I would not practice certain aspects of the culture from which my martial art came, does not mean I will lack a fundamental understanding of the art. How could it? There are only so many ways to punch, to kick.

You are right, the body only moves in so many ways. And proper biomechanics can only be taught in one fashion. I do however feel strongly that there are many cultural implications in terms of why something is taught a certain way as well as in terms of attitude/behavior during combat.

You may know the outer forms (in terms of kata and punching & kicking) but may loose something in the 'translation'. I think evolution of an art is fine (although I may not agree with most of what I've seen as evolution), but make sure you distinguish it from the "original"...


Some of these early masters went to China to study, yet when they returned to Okinawa, they taught in an Okinawan cultural fashion

Remember that the Okinawan Islands were heavily influenced by the Chinese. When the the Chinese arts (Kenfat) were transplanted to the Ryukyu archipelago the Chinese influence were much stronger than the Japanese... Having said that, the gi and the Japanese attitude toward training were introduced after the Meiji restoration when the attitude of "Yamato damashii" (Japanese spirit) was very strong. So these things were not originally introduced by the Okinawan people.

KG

[Vash]

KG:

Again, very thought provoking. Here's some thought that got provoked (I'm a poet, didn't know it)

What aspects of the kata, the art in general, would I be losing by not incorporating the Japanese/Okinawan influences into my teaching? Being an extreme novice here, with only 3 years in this art, I seem to be at a loss as to the behavioral influences the culture had on the art.

As an aside, would it be closer to the Okinawan roots to train as the Okinawans did, ie no formal wear, ranking, et al? Or would that be reverting to the time before the founding of Isshinryu, therefore nullifying the whole get-back-to-the-origin idea?

D@mn interesting conversation, if I say so myself. Thanks to the participants. Let's keep this stuff up.

[Vash]

!

[Vash]

I realize now that I am beyond style, beyond substance, beyond beyondness, man. It's like, I'm whoah. Or something like that.

My being a gimp has nothing to do with this whole "I'm the sh!t" idea, anyway. My dog told me.

[Starchaser107]

Vash, I cant understand your slangs what do you mean you're a gimp?

[Vash]

Or not.

Being a gimp means being crippled. Or just having an attachment to b!tching.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On to today's deep thoughts:

Just finished reading the Shaolin special. Pretty neat. Got me thinking.

When a martial art is being used as a vehicle of cultural preservation, does it cross the line of martial art and become a cultural art?

In Shaolin, kung fu is used as a vehicle to "delve into . . . personal demons and attachments to root out the source of ignorance, fear, and greed." However, the martial art is only one aspect of Shaolin. Therefore, removal of any of the other aspects of Shaolin would make it not-Shaolin. The martial art, though, would remain as effective. But, I am confusing myself.

In the Shaolin example, removal of certain spiritual aspects would negate the Shaolin portion of the art. But, what if the same adherence to cultural/discipline is applied to an art whose "goal," if martial arts can be said to have this (and I do. Self-defense, fighting, whatever the correct term is), is self-preservation? Yes, martial arts can lead to self-discipline, improved character, the basic betterment of the practitioner. But, so can organized sports.

So, if a practitioner removes the cultural aspects of an art, yet preserves everything "functional" of said art, what is the end product? A deformed art?

Thinking out loud.

[Vash]

When, in the context of martial arts, the term "traditional" is mentioned, what do you think of? Classes held in a manner very similar to the art's country of origin, or the training regimines, technical base?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
Vash,

Thanks for the kudos. I had a few days to think about my response... ;)


blooming lotus,
Thanks. I agree with you completely! I also spent some time in Asia studying MA (primarily Japan) and also went to Taiwan on a couple of occasions to train in Neijia.

One of the primary reasons for me taking up the practice of traditional Japanese MA was based on my interest in Hoplology, the study of the evolution and development of human combative behavior.

BTW, where in China are staying? I'll be going over to Shanghai in January for a short trip.


Sorry for the long post everyone!
KG

dude. that is very cool , but excuse naivety here,...what exactly is Neijia???
and while we are here hopology hey...isnt that what we all are studying!?! I am currently in Anhui, Hhefei to be specific, Im not sure if either of us will have time but ??? maybe we could meet in Shanghai for a green tea, a spar and a rave..
;) :D ..dude...you'll be here for new year! if I dont catch you, have fun;)

[Kristoffer]

neija is the internal arts. Like Pakua

[Kempo Guy]

blooming lotus,

As Kristoffer stated, Neijia refers to the "Chinese internal MA", eg Tai Ji, Xing Yi and Ba Gua.

And yes, Hoplology is what many of us are studying. Having said that I don't think most modern MA (or perhaps it's the way MA is taught these days) would fall under the category of "combative systems"; and it neglects the study of human combative behavior.

I spent the Chinese new years two years ago in Taiwan and in Korea, which was a pretty cool experience. I've had the opportunity to celebrate Chinese new years in Japan on many occasions as well.


Vash,

When, in the context of martial arts, the term "traditional" is mentioned, what do you think of? Classes held in a manner very similar to the art's country of origin, or the training regimines, technical base?

Yes, yes and yes....

Just kidding, sort of... :rolleyes:
When the word "traditional" is used I think of all these things, of course it will depend largely on the context in which it is spoken. And I think many people will conjure up images of Karateka lined up performing one kata after another and practicing prearranged sparring.

If you are referring to a Koryu bugei then perhaps all of the above may be applicable. However more modern forms of combatives may still adhere to all these traditions while being aware of the dangers in adhering too strongly to tradition (in the sense that you may eventually be practicing a "dead art").

I can think of a couple of "traditional" bugei arts that allow the individual teachers some flexibility in how the principles of these arts are taught, i.e. making them applicable to modern day conflicts.

It really comes down to how the principles of the individual arts are passed down from teacher to student whether it is in the form of kata and/or kuden (oral teaching). This does not exclude "modern arts" such as Karate and Judo. Also, reigi (etiquette) imho is of utmost importance. This in many ways is what seperates a MA from just an "empty form" of pugilism, and often carries with it philosphies of the founders (whether it's based on Taoism, Shinto, Buddhism, Confucianism etc.).

I'm not sure if this is coherent at all... :confused: so I'll get off my soapbox and retire for the evening. :D

KG

[Vash]

Here's another thought.

I've heard it said often that one of the key components of MA training must be virtue, good heartedness, morallity, et al. If these are left out, one is only training killing machines.

For martial training to produce a a "killing machine," devoid or basic human and cultural morallity, wouldn't the student need to be raised in a moral/cultural vacuum? After all, the good part of people with the heart to go through martial arts training are of . . . decent character. There are some A-Holes, as in all things. But, generally, a teacher who really cared to could root these students from the school.

Also, on an art retaining the philosophies of the founder/s. If one is training in the art for cultural/historical preservation, I can see this as important. But, in terms of martial applicability, it is rather useless.

However, this is not to say that a teacher should teach in an imoral fashion or with a dangerous intent, it just shouldn't be a inherent part of the art.

But again, my arguments stem from a need for martial applicablity and not goals shared by others in the arts.

[Tak]

1. Do you/your school use the dress of whichever culture birthed your art?

2. Do you/your school use the 'jargon' of said culture when identifying actions, techniques, et al?


I answer yes to both of these. No, another question, if yes . . .
why?


1. Hmm, sort of. We wear just tshirts and lightweight black gusseted pants, but we also wear feiyue-style shoes (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45353l.html), and we're getting "sparring jackets." (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/11kunfuunkun1.html)

2. We tend to use the terms in mandarin alongside their english translations. So, we might refer to a form either as Si Mien Quan or Four Gates (Fist).

3. I dunno, seems like the appropriate training gear. It's not our tradition to wear a heavy gi-like thing, anyway.

[Starchaser107]

sooo , vash..no pics for brink of?

[Vash]

eventually. gotta get my gimp ass under my desk to hook up my camera.

then you see a true playa.

[Starchaser107]

:cool:

[Kristoffer]

dun be shy

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Vash
Here's another thought.


For martial training to produce a a "killing machine," devoid or basic human and cultural morallity, wouldn't the student need to be raised in a moral/cultural vacuum? After all, the good part of people with the heart to go through martial arts training are of . . . decent character. There are some A-Holes, as in all things. But, generally, a teacher who really cared to could root these students from the school.
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root them from the school or take them on as a teaching "project and help them walk a good mile???" Show ¨¦m what growth is really about...as you do

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Also, on an art retaining the philosophies of the founder/s. If one is training in the art for cultural/historical preservation, I can see this as important. But, in terms of martial applicability, it is rather useless.

However, this is not to say that a teacher should teach in an imoral fashion or with a dangerous intent, it just shouldn't be a inherent part of the art.
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nicely put

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But again, my arguments stem from a need for martial applicablity and not goals shared by others in the arts.

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EXACTLY VASH! I have got to firmly agree. The abilty to maim and kill should be secondary or a bi-product of training...

for sure.

Who said Vash had bad attitude?
:D

[Vash]

I said I have a very bad attitude. Serpent just calls me mean names, like "daddy."

:eek:

[Kristoffer]

"Who is your daddy, and what does he do?"

[chen zhen]

he calls me P. Diddy, pretty annoying imo.

[Starchaser107]

whats up with those pics vash?, think we forgot didnt ya?

[Vash]

Hell, I forgot. ;)

I'm gonna post some physical therapy pics tomorrow, so I'll take one of my gorguous mug then.

I know y'a'll want my sexy body.

[blooming lotus]

for real vash,..your alright..i suppose we can put up with you.


but seriously..while I am totally for tradition and cultural preservation of your art, dont you feel like ****s dressed traditionally ..especially when conducting dy to day business?...and if you dont ..is that because youre over the whole attatchmenyt to opo (other peples opinions) or what.?

what do you think?

[Kristoffer]

for real vash,..your alright..i suppose we can put up with you.

lol Vash this should be in your sig :D

[Vash]

I'll do that.

It's gonna be 20-point font, underlined, bold, italicized, and darkred.

Gotta be original, no? ;)

[Xebsball]

TDRATION MANY TIMES IS
a waste of time

[Kristoffer]

Gotta be original, no?

ya

[Vash]

This, along with the other "Tradition" thread, are two parts of a horse I've beaten to death many a time. However, I feel that they can contribute to active discussion on the traits, practices, and applications of JKD as both an art and a philosophy.

[blooming lotus]

so his pending death was a figment of our imagination...


cool......(audible sigh of relief )

[Vash]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
so his pending death was a figment of our imagination...


cool......(audible sigh of relief )

What?

[blooming lotus]

that horse you were "beating to death ".....





.....huuuh?????:rolleyes:

In other words vash what you're saying is that tradition may have something for you after all....right?

[Vash]

Not really. The traditional methods, a la Kata, makiwara striking, the other tools of Tanren (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/index.html), and a few of the medicines, conditioning routines of some CMA, I feel are applicable today. However, the tradition which I oppose is the inclusion of culture within the confines of technique transmission.

Yes, I understand my art is Okinawan in origin. In fact, I prefer the OMA flavor. But, I am not Okinawan, nor am I Japanese. I feel it's dishonest of me to use another culture when training this art.

Plus, in some instances, the "practice" of the foreign culture, or the butchering of it's language can hinder training.

To keep this in a JKD context, it should be stripped, as it does not promote technical learning.

[Vash]

ttt

[David Jamieson]

this is what tradition means.

tra·di·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-dshn)
n.
The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.

A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.

A set of such customs and usages viewed as a coherent body of precedents influencing the present: followed family tradition in dress and manners. See Synonyms at heritage.

A body of unwritten religious precepts.

A time-honored practice or set of such practices.

Law. Transfer of property to another.

cheers

[Vash]

Indeed. Clinical, but irrefutably correct.

Now, what baring (sp) does cultural tradition have on a fighting discipline?

[bonetone]

From my experience cultural tradition is highly relative to programming, and conditioning. How you think, act, move. fight, are all effected by the environment and culture one is brought up in. Sure a person can recondition to do things differently, and there are still instincts and commonalities within our species, but early on in one's life is when an individual is shaped the most and what they are experiencing at that time will surly shape a person for the future. I don't know if this has anything to do with what you were talking about, but I thought I'd add another post.

[SevenStar]

Tradition can have some bearing - the question is should it have any bearing? In some cases, yes. Take judo, for example. Kano was a pacifist - he based his art around this. Can a throw KYTFO? heck yeah, but the principles he based his art around are stemmed in his pacifist nature - principles such as mutual welfare and benefit (Jita Kyoei) Which seems to promote interdependence, i.e. coach and student relationship. It's encouraged that judoka develop their skills to the fullest and become of some benefit to society.

The "Ju" in Judo means gentle.

[Vash]

Excellent examples Sevenstar.

Here's another question: If the neo-Traditional aspects of an art, such as cultural behavior during the training of said art, are discarded, but the training and technical base remain the same, can the art still be called by the same name?

[rogue]

Sure.

[SevenStar]

I would say yes, but there are some who would say no.

[Vash]

Why do you think some people would object to removing cultural tradition from martial practice?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vash
Why do you think some people would object to removing cultural tradition from martial practice?

depends on the style. If it's something competitive, such study can get in the way of training - not in a major way, but I can see it happening. From a religious standpoint, to attract more students. I know several people who refuse to train in shaolin, for example because of the religious connotation that goes with it.

In other senses, it can just be easier. Being American, I can learn the term "lifting propping pulling ankle" faster than trying to learn to say and spell "sasae tsuri komi ashi"

[Vash]

Good points.

Do you think there would be objection to the removing of cultural practices in arts such as Okinawan karate, non Shaolin kung fu styles, and the like? If so, why?

[Former castleva]

From a purely martial standpoint,I cannot see why removing what you call cultural practices (granted we have the same understanding) would harm the practice of the art.
I think I would have argued for the opposite view,in the past that is,but come to think about it,why not?
I think of such as unnecessary baggage.

I don´t know anything about that though.
:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Former castleva
From a purely martial standpoint,I cannot see why removing what you call cultural practices (granted we have the same understanding) would harm the practice of the art.
I think I would have argued for the opposite view,in the past that is,but come to think about it,why not?
I think of such as unnecessary baggage.

I don´t know anything about that though.
:)

these cultural practices are established ( I think I touched on this earlier in this thread, I can't remember) - in some cases they add structure. Judo for example. I can go to any judo school in the world, and no matter where I go, kesa gatame is the same technique.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vash
Good points.

Do you think there would be objection to the removing of cultural practices in arts such as Okinawan karate, non Shaolin kung fu styles, and the like? If so, why?

there probably would be - from the country of origin. you are changing (and possibly in the eyes of some) destrooying their art, which is part of their culture and heritage.

[HungMoJue]

in an nutshell-tradition is totally committing yourself in a system rather than dabbling for a few months and saying you know it. All too often, there are guys from poor JKD schools who go from one style to another, simply getting a handle on a few basic techniqwues, and thinking, "Oh, I got it!" Then there are the Burton Richardsons, and Dan Inosantos, who totally imerse themselves 24/7 in a system for years, not weeks, to understand it and develop attributes. I have seen guys say, "I'll uses a Muay Thai foot jab to enter, then a wing chun trap , to a kali takedown.", or worse yet, "Well I HAVE the Wing Chun..." because they learned lop-sao drills and some chi-sao, so now they HAVE the Wing Chun. This mentality comes from bad parenting-molly coddling Mommies who let their kids quit anything that requires real work, and telling their kid that it's not their fault. Eventually, the kid never sticks to anything, and finds a home at a bad JKD school with a teacher from the same upringing, who takes seminars and knows it all.
I don't want anyone to think I am anti JKD-I am simply anti BAD JKD.-The Last Emperor

[Vash]

Good post. Experimentation doesn't exactly mean ability to utilize the learned techniques.

[SevenStar]

ttt