Buddhism, Meditation and Science

[RAF]

Nice article on scientific look at meditation. IMHO, more interesting on how top journals were not willing to send the research out for peer blind review. No wonder scientists don't stick their necks out to study qi, qi gong and taiji, bagua, etc. etc..

There seems to be an almost unconscious aversion, on the part of "objective" scientists, to alternative medicine and other alternative therapies, especially if they have an Eastern twist. One wrong study and your whole scientific career could go down the drain even if you have legitimate data and methodology.

Could wipe out any future research grants and universities greatly depend on them since they also get a cut from the grant. We all know about how the grantsmanship game is played and shapes the research questions one addresses.

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/magazine/

Enjoy!

[Former castleva]

Nothing new here.

"Nice article on scientific look at meditation. IMHO, more interesting on how top journals were not willing to send the research out for peer blind review. No wonder scientists don't stick their necks out to study qi, qi gong and taiji, bagua, etc. etc.. "

"There seems to be an almost unconscious aversion, on the part of "objective" scientists, to alternative medicine and other alternative therapies, especially if they have an Eastern twist. One wrong study and your whole scientific career could go down the drain even if you have legitimate data and methodology.

Could wipe out any future research grants and universities greatly depend on them since they also get a cut from the grant. We all know about how the grantsmanship game is played and shapes the research questions one addresses."


The article did not involve any sensationalist material,as far as I saw.I have written threads about studies on meditation myself.
BTW,oriental martial arts are no different from hammer throw or running,they have been studied ( http://www.nia.nih.gov/news/pr/1996/05-02.htm ).You cannot scientifically study subjects as "qi" though,so I agree with "No wonder" (a person able to study such would be a Nobelist at least.Discovery of a whole new law unknown to science ought to revolutionize it.Usually,it´s hooey).
Making up "conspiracy theories" about why some (possibly worthless) subject has been dismissed or not taken seriously is one warning sign of bogus science.

[RAF]

I wouldn't necessarily limit the subjects to be studied by science.

There are many methodologies used in science. Qi can easily be studied without direct measurement. You simply develop a model of Qi from which testable hypotheses can be derived. Assumptions are never nor required to be tested in this methodology. The predictions of the hypotheses are then subject to empirical measure. There is a whole line of methodology that looks at what test is a definitive test and what can legitimately serve as a proxy measure for some of the variables in hypotheses.

If the hypotheses are supported then the construct of qi has been scientifically validated and its generalizability will require more and more of such testing. Its impossible to achieve complete generalizabilty in a theory since you can never exhaust the possible number of testings.

There is nothing in the methodology of science that requires direct measurement of qi.

This methodology has been around since the 1950s and 1960s and the model of acupuncture which employs qi as its conceptual framework has been supported in the study of a number of medical conditions. Whether qi as an entity can be measured is irrelevant.

Mechanisms of evolution are seldom directly measured but inferred based on a consistency with the hypotheses of the theory. This is also found in studies of astronomy, anthropology and many of the social science.

Not all science is done in a laboratory setting.

There also have been a number of studies on the sociology of science and medicine which point to ideology and bias in the way science is conducted in a given historical time period.

Although carefully worded:

You cannot scientifically study subjects as "qi" though,so I agree with "No wonder" (a person able to study such would be a Nobelist at least.Discovery of a whole new law unknown to science ought to revolutionize it.Usually,it´s hooey).
Making up "conspiracy theories" about why some (possibly worthless) subject has been dismissed or not taken seriously is one warning sign of bogus science."

_________________________________________________

The dismissal of the subjects like meditation and qi come right from the mouth of the horse (researcher in the article).

If you have ever served as a reviewer for scientific journals or reviewed grant proposals then you wouldn't make statements such as your last (of course its just one of many warning signs).

The chief editior of most journals makes his/her decision as to what gets reviewed and what does not. Many papers are rejected simply on the basis of the subject material and then 10 years later, re-submitted and found acceptable for review because the culture has changed.

Its precisely the political process of grants and the biases of those who review articles that restrict the scope of scientific inquiry. Without grants and access to the machinery of science, research is virtually impossible.

Qi, alternative medicine and a host of other "bogus" science has yet to be considered. Unless you believe that Science has come to an end (which is also a reasonable position), there many phenomena, especially in the study of astronomy, which may yet stand what we call scientific principles on its head.

Uncertainty and doubt is a wonderful stimulus.
Science is one of many wonderful faiths.:D

So, like H. Rap Brown said, "Keep the faith, baby!"

Or was that, "Burn baby, burn!":eek:

[Former castleva]

I wouldn't necessarily limit the subjects to be studied by science.


“There is nothing in the methodology of science that requires direct measurement of qi.”

An “energy” that cannot be measured? Physical energy.
No measurement? The description is highly vague though.It ought to make testable predictions.


“This methodology has been around since the 1950s and 1960s and the model of acupuncture which employs qi as its conceptual framework has been supported in the study of a number of medical conditions. Whether qi as an entity can be measured is irrelevant.”

When acupuncture/puncturists invent their qi models,it is a case on it´s own.This is an anecdote,anyway.”Anonymous athority”?
My concern has to do with entities.What is there that needs this separate historical explanation?


“Not all science is done in a laboratory setting.”

True.

“There also have been a number of studies on the sociology of science and medicine which point to ideology and bias in the way science is conducted in a given historical time period.”

Anonymous authorities again? Even more importantly,would it be enough for a generalization?


“If you have ever served as a reviewer for scientific journals or reviewed grant proposals then you wouldn't make statements such as your last (of course its just one of many warning signs).”

Based on what?

“The chief editior of most journals makes his/her decision as to what gets reviewed and what does not. Many papers are rejected simply on the basis of the subject material and then 10 years later, re-submitted and found acceptable for review because the culture has changed.”

Based on what?



“Qi, alternative medicine and a host of other "bogus" science has yet to be considered. Unless you believe that Science has come to an end (which is also a reasonable position), there many phenomena, especially in the study of astronomy, which may yet stand what we call scientific principles on its head.”

Astronomy and alternative to medicine,the latter I consider refuted.

[RAF]

There also have been a number of studies on the sociology of science and medicine which point to ideology and bias in the way science is conducted in a given historical time period.”

Anonymous authorities again? Even more importantly,would it be enough for a generalization?
_____________________________
Do a Google and the books are there? Try a Department of Sociology or a Philosophy Department like I did and then you'll have your sources and reading lists.


“If you have ever served as a reviewer for scientific journals or reviewed grant proposals then you wouldn't make statements such as your last (of course its just one of many warning signs).”

Based on what?
____________________________________
Based on my own 20 years of serving as a reviewer and also the experiences of my colleagues.

“The chief editior of most journals makes his/her decision as to what gets reviewed and what does not. Many papers are rejected simply on the basis of the subject material and then 10 years later, re-submitted and found acceptable for review because the culture has changed.”

Based on what?

____________________________________
Based on my own 20 years of serving as a reviewer and researcher and also the experiences of my colleagues and working with editors, chief editiors, reviewing grants and also grant writing. All research Universities have Department of Institutional Research and during budget cutbacks, competition for grants is fierce. Every administrative level gets a cut of the grant.

If you have got Qi refuted and Alternative Medicine as bogus, then what's the point? You've won your battle and won your war. You are a free and enlightened man!

There's nothing to argue about or for that matter even discuss. Your on a religious mission to convert the nonbelievers into the true believers of "Science". Like I said, its one of the World's greatest faiths. Good luck on your Mission Drive! May the power (statistical power, that is) be with you!

[Former castleva]

"Based on my own 20 years of serving as a reviewer and also the experiences of my colleagues. "

Appeal to authority (part anonymous)

"Based on my own 20 years of serving as a reviewer and researcher and also the experiences of my colleagues and working with editors, chief editiors, reviewing grants and also grant writing. All research Universities have Department of Institutional Research and during budget cutbacks, competition for grants is fierce. Every administrative level gets a cut of the grant."

Appeal to authority (part anonymous).


"There's nothing to argue about or for that matter even discuss. Your on a religious mission to convert the nonbelievers into the true believers of "Science". Like I said, its one of the World's greatest faiths. Good luck on your Mission Drive! May the power (statistical power, that is) be with you!"

Grab my hand,I´ll save you!

Seriously,strawman.

[RAF]

Keep the faith, baby!

Your eyes-wide-shut faith in that there one big monotheistic god in the sky called Science is awe inspiring. But its a sin to worship false idols, ya know, and you'll never make it into that big lab in the sky if you keep this up. Get out of the Chinese martial arts while you can, before you lose your rationality. Learn from the fallen, the sinners who indulge in their subjectivity. Alas be gone!

May the Grants and Reviews be with you and a thousand pardons for the mere mention of Qi or meridian. I dare not, such nonsense but I am a fallen one.

You dwell amongst the unclean, the fallen. Arise and be gone! The blind peer review awaits you. Judge not as for they shall judge you!

Your emperor has no clothes, I say! Then take your clothes off and loosin up. Repent and indulge yourself in the irrational as ya whistle in that there graveyard of cold souls called science.

Come, let us warm your heart with a shot of kong jing, a little qi in flight. Take a bite of the big Qi apple, Adam.

Live a little. Ya little Coyote, you. Dare to take a peek at Eve, I say!

Turn on the Citric Acid Cycle along with Maynard G. Krebbs.
Life is nothing more than a subatomic vibration. Shake your booty! You're shakin today and gone tomorrow.

You great pontificator, you, you scientist! The readers here need more of you. I say, lead us out of the feudal dark and into the light of science. Praise be to the glory of science and may your test tube alway be half full rather than half empty.

As for strawmen, its been said many times before, "Burn baby, Burn!":D

[Former castleva]

LMAO

That´s just too long for me to quote,you know. :D

[Kristoffer]

sorta good thread. Gotta read this later

[RAF]

BTW, I like Science to win one every so often.

The trouble is that I root for both sides.

That way you never lose.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Former castleva
You cannot scientifically study subjects as "qi" though

That depends whether you are treating "qi" as a hypothesis (ie. an observable) or as a theory (ie. as an explanation).

A great many scientific concepts are not observables.

[Former castleva]

Considering the manner it gets presented in,very frustrating.

[RAF]

Qi and Eastern Metaphysics:

The trouble with most discussions of Qi and its measurement is that few understand its conceptualization, historical development and complexity. Its most likely viewed through the lens of the superficial New Age movement.

The book below is not "A BRIEF History of Qi" but rather one of the best sources in understanding its complexity and historical meaning. Qi is embedded in Chinese consciousness, a world view, a way of seeing and being in the world and cannot simply be reduced to a measurement.

By no means am I advocating anyone, as a Westerner, attempt to live out some psuedo oriental consciousness (they did a movie about that years ago, the kid that thinks he's Bruce Lee in the Ghetto) but at least try to understand the underpinnings of this concept and how it fits into the Art you practice (in particular, if its a traditional Chinese art. You don't have to believe it).

Qi and its complexity is one of those Eastern presuppositions about the Universe (as some assume an unprovable rationality, logic and objectivity about the Universe in order to derive their world view--no one in particular here) and that in itself makes it worth looking into. It doesn't have to compete with Western views--you can hold contradictory views and still function well!
__________________________________________________ __
A Brief History of Qi
Zhuang Yu Yuan and Ken Rose


This book is devoted to a topic represented by a single Chinese character, Qi.

Contemporary linguists hold that if a word or concept can be expressed in any one language or dialect it can be translated into any other language or dialect. However, many who have confronted the problem of how to translate the word Qi might challenge this axiom. Qi is a concept that presents students of Chinese culture, Chinese medicine, Chinese martial arts, and a wide range of Chinese traditional arts and sciences with one of the most perplexing challenges they face in pursuit of their studies.


The book begins with an examination of the linguistic and literary roots of the word Qi which stretch back through the shadowy mists of Chinese precivilization. The first chapter includes a survey of concepts from other (non-Chinese) cultures which can be correlated with the ancient Chinese notion of Qi. The authors then trace the development of the concept of Qi through a number of related traditional Chinese disciplines including painting, poetry, calligraphy, dance, medicine, qi gong, and martial arts. The book concludes with an examination of the depth and breadth of Qi as a concept in daily life in China. The book leads readers on an adventure of discovery, demonstrating from many points of view how the ancient Chinese concept of Qi has been employed to interconnect the very roots of culture in one of the world's most enduring civilizations. It presents for the first time in English an exhaustive examination of this ancient metaphysical concept.

Look for it in May of 2001!


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I guess Qi is just one of those topics in which enough can never be said--but I'm empty.

[mantis108]

Wow, RAF, what eloquence! That is just plain beautiful.

BTW, just wanted to say there is an important concept, similar to what you are saying, called "Ti Yong" which roughly translated as nature & function. I think even as early as Yuan dynasty (late 1200s) it was already in use and popular in almost every aspect of Chinese daily experience. At least we know that Song dynasty Confucians fully applied it in their Yi Jing studies.

Best regards

Mantis108

[RAF]

Christopher M. You clarified what I was trying to get to. Pretty **** convulted on my part, great on yours.

Hey, Mantis108, why don't you come down to our tournament, take Sun De Yao's two handed praying mantis sword, and have some fun with the old Wu Tang gang.

Ever since I watched (watching) the 58 VCD series, The Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, I got fascinated in the history and philosophy of early China. Two books I am searching for are:

Hall, David L., and Roger T. Ames (1998). Thinking from the Han: Self, Truth, and Transcendence in Chinese and Western Culture. Albany: State University of New York Press. and

Hall, David L., and Roger T. Ames (1995) Anticipating China: Thinking Through the Narratives of Chinese and Western Culture. Albany: State University of New York Press.

Sometimes the Bookworms (academics, ala Zhuge Liang) have an important function to play. At least these guys write from a more objective perspective in that they have nothing vested in martial arts or the martial arts business.

Here is an interesting piece from their latest works:

"The "art" in any martial arts lies in tailoring it to the strengths and weaknesses, both physchological and physical, of the particular student. The fullest degree of competence comes as a function of optimizing this uniqueness. A great deal of care must be taken at the most elementary stages of training to establish "habits of mind and body," again both psychological and physical, that lead to a maximizing of the developing skill and allow for the emergence of one's particularity. Training is a combination of awareness and feeling. And one must remain resolutely focused in one's entire persona through the changing seasons of one's practice. Success in the martial arts, as in all experience, lies ultimately in the satisfaction students gain in knowing that they have made the most of their experience in all of its changing phases." p. 35

A Philosophical Translation
Dao De Jing
Featuring the Recently Discovered Bamboo Texts
translated and with commentary by Roger T. Ames and David L. Hall.

Note that marital arts commmentary is a very small part of the entire book:

. . . "The Daodejing encourages a comprehensive, processual view of experience that requires a full understanding of the larger picture and the ability to locate and appreciate the particular event within it. This broad view of the field of experience allows one to contextualize particular events, and it provides the peripheral vision needed to stay focused at the center while at the same time anticipating future turns." p. 33.

Too much?