How much of your style can be discarded and still be your style?

[rogue]

What could you jetison from your style and still keep it as that style? How many forms, costumes, esoteric weapons and shrines, special training devices and any trappings could you toss and still preserve the principles, techniques and flavor?

[Liokault]

90 percent of mine could go.

I know for a fact that my teachers teacher didnt teach every thing he learned.....just the things he thought practical, and my teacher has left a lot by the way side from what i remember of the classes when i started over 14 odd years ago.

[David Jamieson]

well, you can't toss any of it and call it what it isn't anymore because part of it's gone.

it's ok to borrow and learn from other arts and use them in such a fashion that it can become an art form. Then it's really really your style.

principles are principles. they are universal and belong to no one. once you have embodied them, they are your principles and do not belong to a style or a system.

it's a fine line.

cheers

[Budokan]

My style, shotokan, is already so stripped down that you couldn't get rid of very much and expect it to remain "shotokan".

[rogue]

Budokan, do you really need between 26 and 32 kata? Does every shotokan practitioner learn all 32? :confused:


well, you can't toss any of it and call it what it isn't anymore because part of it's gone. So if I study karate without a gi and while wearing shoes I'm no longer doing karate? ;)

I think the thin line is between the core of the style and the trappings that surrounds it. On second thought it's a pretty thick line between the two.:)


it's ok to borrow and learn from other arts and use them in such a fashion that it can become an art form. KL, That's sort of what I was going to ask in a couple of days but since you brought it up. How much can you add to your style and still keep it recognizable?:D

[Starchaser107]

everything is useful

[rogue]

Maybe yes, maybe no, but that wasn't the question.

[Starchaser107]

the uniform is just clothes, jargon is just words.
everything else could stay. just my opinion.

what would u strip from your style?

[joedoe]

If I add boxing to my Ngor Chor, then it is no longer Ngor Chor but a mix of boxing and Ngor Chor. There may be common elements but there are also differences in philosophy etc. I can call this my personal style, but I cannot really call it Ngor Chor.

[Vash]

*Cracks knuckles* *slides into asbestos underpants*

Well, I'd get rid of the gis (the tops at least. the pants are super-nice to move in), the Japanese jargon (I can't pronounce it at all, and more to the point, if I were present with several Japanese or Okinawan students, there's no way in hell butchering a few words is going to convey my message. ESPECIALLY if they do not speak my language.), the punitive pushup crap (I'm not overly old, but I think I and most of the people over the age of 21 shouldn't do pushups if they speak "out of turn"). Ever'thing else could stay.

Hell, I'd even add bagwork, footwork drills, focus mitt drills, speed bag work, and a ****load of conditioning, weights, calesthenics.

The terminology I'd keep are: (for no **** good reason)

Dojo (sounds cool, denotes a Japanese or Okinawan based style).
Kata (same as above)
The Names of the Kata (see above the see above notice, plus they are ****ing terrible to translate. 'Specially those named after people.)

F*ck tradition, in my non-humble, obey-me-or-suck-ass-treats opinion. This is about growing as an artist, not ****ing up a different culture.

[Starchaser107]

"If I add boxing to my Ngor Chor, then it is no longer Ngor Chor but a mix of boxing and Ngor Chor. There may be common elements but there are also differences in philosophy etc. I can call this my personal style, but I cannot really call it Ngor Chor."
: - joedoe
_____________________________

bread is bread and jam is jam, but if you spread jam on bread youre still eating bread with a jam flavour to it.
likewise with ngo chor and boxing.

my thoughts.

[No_Know]

Since eveything in ones style is that style, whatever is left is still that style. And whatever you throw away is that style.~

General concept.

[rogue]

From my TKD I'd get rid of the beginner kata and replace them with drills for upper body, lower body and footwork techniques. I'd dump the Asian terminolgy except where it conveys a certain idea or meaning. Any kata should reflect actual techniques that will be used in self defense or fighting. I like the pants of my gi, and the top is useful for clothing grab techniques.

Joedoe, some have the theory that Ngor Chor + karate, or Hsing-yi + karate = Isshinryu.

[Vash]

Rogue;
Why? I know didly about those, with the exception of Xingyi (I'm a two-book Black Sash, Bizzatch!).

Sounds cool.

[rogue]

I think the link was between Motobu and a Hsing Yi guy named Tong Gee. Supposedly Shimabuku was studying with Motobu at this time. Could explain somethings about Isshinryu.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
"If I add boxing to my Ngor Chor, then it is no longer Ngor Chor but a mix of boxing and Ngor Chor. There may be common elements but there are also differences in philosophy etc. I can call this my personal style, but I cannot really call it Ngor Chor."
: - joedoe
_____________________________

bread is bread and jam is jam, but if you spread jam on bread youre still eating bread with a jam flavour to it.
likewise with ngo chor and boxing.

my thoughts.

Actually, you are eating bread with jam on top of it. If you want bread with jam flavour, you need to add the jam before it is baked. Then, wouldn't you call it a tea cacke or something like that? ;)

I guess it really is an academic question. I believe you should do what you feel works for you, but call a spade a spade. If I felt that Ngor Chor was lacking in ground fighting and went and learned BJJ to rectify that, would it be right teach the BJJ component of my training as Ngor Chor? Or should I acknowledge that I have trained 2 different arts? I could rightfully call the synthesis of the two arts my personal style, but it would be wrong for me to call it pure Ngor Chor or BJJ.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by rogue
From my TKD I'd get rid of the beginner kata and replace them with drills for upper body, lower body and footwork techniques. I'd dump the Asian terminolgy except where it conveys a certain idea or meaning. Any kata should reflect actual techniques that will be used in self defense or fighting. I like the pants of my gi, and the top is useful for clothing grab techniques.

Joedoe, some have the theory that Ngor Chor + karate, or Hsing-yi + karate = Isshinryu.

That is fascinating. Can you expand on that some more? I don't know much about Isshinryu, so maybe Vash can help us out here? I know that Ngor Chor is often attributed as the founding art of Gojuryu and Uechiryu, but then I have also heard the same of White Crane.

[Starchaser107]

does that mean you rate isshinryu highly by your own standards?
curious.

[rogue]

Wish I did know more Joedoe, interesting theory though.:)

Starchaser107, in many ways yes and it was one of the inspirations for this thread. Beside Laughing Cows sparring thread and Bens thread of Fighting, another one is Tai Chi Chuan which has several varieties, long and short versions of forms etc. It all made me start to wonder about how much of a style are the trappings of traditions, culturalism and other things without direct bearing upon a style from a practical standpoint.

So what are the things that merely seperate a style from a similar style and those that make it truely unique?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
does that mean you rate isshinryu highly by your own standards?
curious.

Me? I have not seen Isshinryu so I cannot comment. If it was derived from Ngor Chor, it still would not guarantee that I would rate it highly as it has obviously changed, otherwise it would still be called Ngor Chor ;). I would even rate Ngor Chor poorly if it was taught badly :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vash
*Cracks knuckles* *slides into asbestos underpants*

Well, I'd get rid of the gis (the tops at least. the pants are super-nice to move in), the Japanese jargon (I can't pronounce it at all, and more to the point, if I were present with several Japanese or Okinawan students, there's no way in hell butchering a few words is going to convey my message. ESPECIALLY if they do not speak my language.), the punitive pushup crap (I'm not overly old, but I think I and most of the people over the age of 21 shouldn't do pushups if they speak "out of turn"). Ever'thing else could stay.

Hell, I'd even add bagwork, footwork drills, focus mitt drills, speed bag work, and a ****load of conditioning, weights, calesthenics.

The terminology I'd keep are: (for no **** good reason)

Dojo (sounds cool, denotes a Japanese or Okinawan based style).
Kata (same as above)
The Names of the Kata (see above the see above notice, plus they are ****ing terrible to translate. 'Specially those named after people.)

F*ck tradition, in my non-humble, obey-me-or-suck-ass-treats opinion. This is about growing as an artist, not ****ing up a different culture.

Actually, I agree with most of that. But, the gi has multiple uses. Think grappling. In judo, some of what you do be it throws, chokes, etc. involes gi grabbing. So, you can't just get rid of the gi, unless you start teaching no gi stuff right from the beginning, which wouldn't happen, as judo competitions don't have no gi categories the way that bjj does.

As for the pushup thing, it's merely disciplinary. Nothing wrong with it, IMO. Look at it as extra training, if nothing else.

Keeping the names in the language helps keep everything in order. Look at the problem that SC has. There are so many different names for the techniques that people have troubles figuring out what's what. It's an awesome art, but it seems that different camps have different names for some of the techniques. you will NEVER have that problem with an art like judo, it's too organized.

[joedoe]

My question for Vash is this - would you also advocate English-ifying the names of things in arts like Capoeira? Or maybe fencing, or Savate? Or do you find those languages easier to deal with?

[SevenStar]

Terminology aside, I think everything can go - except the principles of the style.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Terminology aside, I think everything can go - except the principles of the style.

Would you throw forms & training exercises/drills into that as well?

[Vash]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Actually, I agree with most of that. But, the gi has multiple uses. Think grappling. In judo, some of what you do be it throws, chokes, etc. involes gi grabbing. So, you can't just get rid of the gi, unless you start teaching no gi stuff right from the beginning, which wouldn't happen, as judo competitions don't have no gi categories the way that bjj does.

-I thought about that just after I posted that. I love the stand-up -grappling in Naihanchi, but I abhore ground-fighting . . . since I -can't do it anymore cuz my vertebrae decided that following one -line sucks ass.

As for the pushup thing, it's merely disciplinary. Nothing wrong with it, IMO. Look at it as extra training, if nothing else.

-I can understand a discipline maintainance, but it seems a little -silly. Having grown, non-military men dropping down and -pumping 10 out seems . . . I dunno. I've been outta class for a -few months, and that only happened once, when Sensei ( :eek )
-was feeling antsy.

Keeping the names in the language helps keep everything in order. Look at the problem that SC has. There are so many different names for the techniques that people have troubles figuring out what's what. It's an awesome art, but it seems that different camps have different names for some of the techniques. you will NEVER have that problem with an art like judo, it's too organized.

-I guess. I can see how different translations of names could -quickly devolve. But, I'm never, NEVER going to pronounce
-'Hije no Ato Tsuki' right. **** that ****.

I think I'm just a non-strict class kinda guy. I like INformality. I'm not overly interested in furthering myself as a moral person, improving my discipline (like being a lazy-ass ******* [only train {when not on the gimp} 12-13 hours a week]), or broadening my awareness of other cultures. That's what college's for.
I'm there for because I love martial arts. An' having a goal to work for in the weight room has its benefits.

Anyway, peace out.

[Starchaser107]

joe , i was asking rogue re: isshinryu.

and re: your statement :
_____________ ___ _---- _ ___ _____________

"I guess it really is an academic question. I believe you should do what you feel works for you, but call a spade a spade. If I felt that Ngor Chor was lacking in ground fighting and went and learned BJJ to rectify that, would it be right teach the BJJ component of my training as Ngor Chor? Or should I acknowledge that I have trained 2 different arts? I could rightfully call the synthesis of the two arts my personal style, but it would be wrong for me to call it pure Ngor Chor or BJJ."
_________________________________________

if you taught the specific arts seperately then you should retain the names , but if you integrated both and came up with a new style then i suppose it would be time for a name change.

[Vash]

Originally posted by joedoe
My question for Vash is this - would you also advocate English-ifying the names of things in arts like Capoeira? Or maybe fencing, or Savate? Or do you find those languages easier to deal with?

That's kind of an iffy. I'm not suggesting a complete removal of foreign terms for things (latin still gets tossed around, don't it?), I;m just not overly fond of them. I'm just not fond of it.

But, I say "low-block, reverse punch," someone's gonna try an' eat my ass because a low block does **** for a kick . . . or something.

To each his own. In my training logs, ever' dog-****ed thing is in english, with exception to "kata" and the names of said kata.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Vash


That's kind of an iffy. I'm not suggesting a complete removal of foreign terms for things (latin still gets tossed around, don't it?), I;m just not overly fond of them. I'm just not fond of it.

But, I say "low-block, reverse punch," someone's gonna try an' eat my ass because a low block does **** for a kick . . . or something.

To each his own. In my training logs, ever' dog-****ed thing is in english, with exception to "kata" and the names of said kata.

Fair enough. I guess I don't actually think of techniques etc. in terms of names, rather in terms of function. In fact, my sifu has taught most things using English terms so in many cases I do not know the Chinese names for things (except for forms).

Ultimately it doesn't really matter. As long as you understand what it is, and you are able to convey that well, then what language you are using is secondary.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by joedoe


Would you throw forms & training exercises/drills into that as well?

yes and no... yes in the sense that I believe you could do without weapons and apparatus training, like using a spear for grip training. There are more modern - and likely more efficient - ways of training that. You definitely need exercises to get in shape and develop the attributes you need, but those attributes aren't necessarily style specific. anyone could benefit from grip training, from stance training, etc. and those exercises aren't what makes the style, afterall.

As for forms, those are used to convey the principles of the style, so those I suppose would be okay. BUT, technically, you don't really need them - not in the long form sense anyway. single technique drills, footwork drills, etc. are just as effective at teaching principles, IME.

[Vash]

Why the **** do I wanna bow to someone? I wanna shake a mother****ers hand, not bow to them. Then again, I see ever'thing that ain't immediately conducive to learnin' yo shiat as superfluous.

So, my final thoughts:

Use what terms best convey your meaning.

Don't be ashamed to use YOUR culture when instructing a martial art of foreign origin.

Extremely regimented class definitions are not conducive to learnin' yo shiat.

Don't **** me the F*CK OFF on a Sunday. ****ing ancient ****-sucking ***** twiddling gnome-raping Euclidian driver.

:confused:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vash


-I guess. I can see how different translations of names could -quickly devolve. But, I'm never, NEVER going to pronounce
-'Hije no Ato Tsuki' right. **** that ****.

:D

I think I'm just a non-strict class kinda guy. I like INformality. I'm not overly interested in furthering myself as a moral person, improving my discipline (like being a lazy-ass ******* [only train {when not on the gimp} 12-13 hours a week]), or broadening my awareness of other cultures. That's what college's for.
I'm there for because I love martial arts. An' having a goal to work for in the weight room has its benefits.

Anyway, peace out.

I'm with you on that. I like informality also. Enter the gym, train hard, learn, go home. Plain and simple. But in some cases, discipline is necessary. You have people who cause interruptions in the class, have bad attitudes, etc. These are things that compromise everyone's ability to learn.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Terminology aside, I think everything can go - except the principles of the style.

I am with SevenStar here, the principles and the adherance to them is what makes a style.

Look at the different flavours of TJQ, neither is better or more correct as long as you keep to the common principles.

Interestingly enough we had a FREE Qi-Gong lessons yesterday, where teacher talked about the different TJQ and IMA styles, their relations, etc and we practiced exercises from a variety of styles.

Xing Yi, Sun/Yang/Chen/Chan/Wu tai chi. The teacher decided on 3 moves that are common and showed us the differences. The few of us that studied 2 or more TJQ/IMA styles knew a lot of those moves already.

It doesn't matter if the move is called "Graps the sparrows Tail", "Stroke the peachocks tail", their outward appearances or whatever the same jings are contained and trained.

Many styles share the same move/posture and tech, this doesn't make them related or similar.

As for bowing and similar that I think depends on your Sifu NOT on your style.

[No_Know]

For the most part, you can't shake a ghosts hand. Bows or salutes are to the altar too. For the most part, you can't shake a ghosts hand.

Shaking hands to martial artists is kind of asking to be submitted with a small joint lock at least to start.

In the military you would shake your Sergeant's hand and not ever salute a superior officer because your too proud or some such pride ((being an) a s (s) related)?

The French shake hands with everyone when greeting and leaving. Once-upon a time in small groups at least.

Saluting seems faster. And keeps a safe distance. More efficient than you quick-to-speak handshake.

But then you don't seem to require Respect in your instruction.

Let's make you lethal without giving you a sense of respecting others. Chief concept.

"But, I say "low-block, reverse punch," someone's gonna try an' eat my ass because a low block does **** for a kick . . . or something."

Ummm.?. Then try not being Completely Stupid and perhaps use the low block when they do a shanking type stab/punch angled uppercut to your ribs.

Some Can kick to your ribs and above. A common method is a sweeping kick like Muay Thai. High enough, a low block (with the arm) is not lame. If they kick out of the range (lower) of a low block (with the arm), then move their target. Hit them while they are attacking And you are avoiding. Or you might get lame.

Just because you get a technique does not mean apply it every situation.

I can see No_Knowing what to do but being aware that you have a supposed Authentic technique.

Washington, DC seemed to used to have a theatre stage type place near the Washington Monument. A guy was practicing some Martial-artsie thing (hard Karate type I might have thought). There was talk and the now dead associate and myself were to try to get this older guy (late twenties, early thirties). We were all on the stage and he took a defensive posture trying to keep an eye on both of us. I had just started Kung-Fu class and what was appropriate that I got from my beginner to the School database was Bow-and-Arrow stance. It was good defense And the guy shifted position. I was Stuck! I couldn't face him where to which he moved. What now? Oh yes! There was a transition to another Bow-and-Arrow stance. Ummm? How'd that go? I wasn't conciously recalling. I ended up adapting this useful techniqe as appropriately as I understood. I would shift my rear foot/leg and virtually was pivoting to keep him in front of me. If I moved from that spot I did it Keeping the same leg forward. It was pitiful(sad)/comical

He smiled. I took it as he recognized that I had training and found it cute that I didn't learn further than the stance or didn't learn the transition. It was really cute.

[David Jamieson]

Well, there are styles that are practiced now that are named the same but clearly are not taught, delivered or performed in teh same way.

What's in a name anyway? How much stuff is just called "shaolin" for instance? How many different ways are there to do teh forms of wing chun or Hung Gar?

Why is there several different black tiger styles? etc etc.

There are plenty of techniques and movements included in a lot of martial arts that in truth have no meaning and little applicative quality. Just fancy junk, really useless for tactics in reality.

THere are also unusual tactics and techs that are so hard to understand and apply that they still are in systems, but people don't know what the heck they are lol.

Styles get changed all the time, there are reformations that occur on a generational basis which each and every line of new disseminators of the style.

I can only think of 1 or 2 styles that are consistent with the outlay of knowledge in the land of Kungfu.

Karate , even shotokan is taught differently from one org to the next.

There simply is no standardization with very few exceptions. Those few exceptions are the very traditional and time honoured systems.

It's amazing though how some styles are named the same, but no two pracs perform the sets in the same way or sequence. The sets being the signatures of a "style".

Makes ya wonder just what percentage of all this stuff is bogus.

caveat emporum kiddies

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by No_Know
Since eveything in ones style is that style, whatever is left is still that style. And whatever you throw away is that style.~

General concept.

Well said, No_Know. Beautiful.

[Vash]

Originally posted by No_Know
For the most part, you can't shake a ghosts hand. Bows or salutes are to the altar too. For the most part, you can't shake a ghosts hand.

Good. Ghosts give me the willies. An' as far as my ancestors, predecessors, tax men, whatever, are concerned . . . they shouldn't be. Being a Christian, I'm not overly concerned what dead men and women think of me shaking someone's hand.
In my dojo, we're taught to bow in kata and in sparring facing our opponent. That's a Hollywood idea, yet it's been passed on to my sensei as tradition. Tell me how that's beneficial.
Oh, yes . . . p*ss on Casper.



If I'm shaking someone's hand and they put me in a joint lock, that's time for an ass-whuppin. Where is the "honor" (or the realistic chances of this happening in a controlled environment [or the real world]) in that? Next question.

[B]In the military you would shake your Sergeant's hand and not ever salute a superior officer because your too proud or some such pride ((being an) a s (s) related)?

I am NOT a military man. Never will be. Have the utmost respect for these guys, especially since my best friend is in the National Guard, but I'm scared sh*tless of that kinda service. MA INSTRUCTION is not, to my understanding, to be a MILITARILY-ORGANIZED AFFAIR. That's discipline, ad nauseum.

The French shake hands with everyone when greeting and leaving. Once-upon a time in small groups at least.

And? i'm half Cajun.

Saluting seems faster. And keeps a safe distance. More efficient than you quick-to-speak handshake.

Once again, who's gonna get into a bad sit-chi-a-shun during a f*cking hand shake?

But then you don't seem to require Respect in your instruction.

What does any of that have to do with respect? Sounds more like paying homage to someone in place of seeing him/her as an equal. As for Sensei, Sifu, instructor, they are in fact mere mortals, no matter how bad-a$$ they are.

Let's make you lethal without giving you a sense of respecting others. Chief concept.

See above.

"But, I say "low-block, reverse punch," someone's gonna try an' eat my ass because a low block does **** for a kick . . . or something."

Ummm.?. Then try not being Completely Stupid and perhaps use the low block when they do a shanking type stab/punch angled uppercut to your ribs.



Some Can kick to your ribs and above. A common method is a sweeping kick like Muay Thai. High enough, a low block (with the arm) is not lame. If they kick out of the range (lower) of a low block (with the arm), then move their target. Hit them while they are attacking And you are avoiding. Or you might get lame.

Just because you get a technique does not mean apply it every situation.
A matter of poor clarification on my part. I was giving this technique as an example of how translation (which I favor) can cause problems. And in my dojo, this technique is often seen as a blunt-force stoppage of a round house shin kick. Not a good idea in my opinion.

I can see No_Knowing what to do but being aware that you have a supposed Authentic technique.

Washington, DC seemed to used to have a theatre stage type place near the Washington Monument. A guy was practicing some Martial-artsie thing (hard Karate type I might have thought). There was talk and the now dead associate and myself were to try to get this older guy (late twenties, early thirties). We were all on the stage and he took a defensive posture trying to keep an eye on both of us. I had just started Kung-Fu class and what was appropriate that I got from my beginner to the School database was Bow-and-Arrow stance. It was good defense And the guy shifted position. I was Stuck! I couldn't face him where to which he moved. What now? Oh yes! There was a transition to another Bow-and-Arrow stance. Ummm? How'd that go? I wasn't conciously recalling. I ended up adapting this useful techniqe as appropriately as I understood. I would shift my rear foot/leg and virtually was pivoting to keep him in front of me. If I moved from that spot I did it Keeping the same leg forward. It was pitiful(sad)/comical

He smiled. I took it as he recognized that I had training and found it cute that I didn't learn further than the stance or didn't learn the transition. It was really cute.

Okay. Whatever, dude.

Time for speech class. YEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

[Budokan]

Rogue,
I was thinking more of the basics and not the kata. Kata is only an application of basics, as you well know. I would only count the basic moves and techniques of a style in regards to this question, not the kata that are derived therefrom.

[rogue]

I'll agree with that Budokan. I've come around to the idea that if the attributes of the style aren't evident in the basics then there may be too much fluff in the training. Of course different arts have a different idea of basics, some people may think push hands is advanced but there guys who start training it from day one as a basic.

[KC Elbows]

For what we practice, I'd say all of it could go except the core internal form and the spear set. All the other forms are recent additions, externalized applications from off of the internal set. Some schools have already done this paring away: one practices three of the five externalized forms, one practices four of the five. Ultimately, I don't think I'll teach any of the external forms.

The internal form has all the movements, all the applications, all the chi kungs, all the fa jings, etc. The spear set I'd keep because of it's clear influence on the internal set. Sticky hands would probably have to stay as well. I suppose you could break the form down to it's requisite movements and chi kungs, but then, it'd be quicker to learn the form as a continuous thing than each move independently. Sometimes the transitions make the power generation more obvious.

Good topic.

[No_Know]

"Being a Christian, I'm not overly concerned what dead men and women think of me shaking someone's hand."

Christian--following the ways of Jesus Christ of Nazareth--currently dead-ish perhaps Holy Ghost. Guided with a book whose last living author died more than five hundred years ago.

"In my dojo, we're taught to bow in kata and in sparring facing our opponent. That's a Hollywood idea, yet it's been passed on to my sensei as tradition."

If you know it's a Hollywood idea where did they get that idea? And What is your credibility to know where Hollywood thinks...

"Tell me how that's beneficial."

Since your concept is not necessarily valid much less sound. I dare not try to validate your possible misconception.

"What does any of that have to do with respect? Sounds more like paying homage to someone in place of seeing him/her as an equal. As for Sensei, Sifu, instructor, they are in fact mere mortals, no matter how bad-a$$ they are."

There is more to life than you know. There is more to getting- done than doing.

I No_Know.

[omarthefish]

KC Elbows post just made me stop and think how ironic it is to me that it seems like it's the internal arts that are the most flexible in their thinking. Hm. I thought it was supposed to be the other way. With the internal style I'm most familiar with, Bagua, I'd say you could drop pretty **** near everything but the circle walking....I have.....and still call it Bagua. With Yi-Quan all you need is Zhan Zhuang and with Hsing Yi, you could probably get a way with only practicing Pi Quan. It's with the relatively external stuff I have to stretch my brain a bit more to try and think of what defines them as a style.

[Vash]

Originally posted by No_Know
"Being a Christian, I'm not overly concerned what dead men and women think of me shaking someone's hand."

Christian--following the ways of Jesus Christ of Nazareth--currently dead-ish perhaps Holy Ghost. Guided with a book whose last living author died more than five hundred years ago.

Well, in the Christian religion, Jesus did indeed die, but got bored with it, came back, wen't on to Heaven. Don't want to get into a theological discussion, as we are on topic of MA traditions. If there be ghosts in MA, they need an @$$ whuppin.


"In my dojo, we're taught to bow in kata and in sparring facing our opponent. That's a Hollywood idea, yet it's been passed on to my sensei as tradition."

If you know it's a Hollywood idea where did they get that idea? And What is your credibility to know where Hollywood thinks...

"Tell me how that's beneficial."

Since your concept is not necessarily valid much less sound. I dare not try to validate your possible misconception.

WTF? Of the Japanese and Okinawan (okay, one Okinawan) karatedo and toudijutsu students I've had the pleasure of meeting, none had EVER heard of this type of bow, outside of the 'States and the movies. As for honor in this move, where is it? If you gotta keep tabs on someone IN CLASS so they don't bust your grill, you're in either a poorly run school, or working with a dumb ass partner.



"What does any of that have to do with respect? Sounds more like paying homage to someone in place of seeing him/her as an equal. As for Sensei, Sifu, instructor, they are in fact mere mortals, no matter how bad-a$$ they are."

There is more to life than you know. There is more to getting- done than doing.

Again, Double-You to the Tee to the Eff? There is indeed more to life than I know, but telling me that does **** for me knowing what the above-mentioned modern/traditionalist stuff does for my ability to defend myself.

I No_Know. [/B]

[No_Know]

You call them bows. I heard of them as salutes and bows would be from Japanese traditions. Because the Chinese don't seem to bow in School. General rule seems to be the Chinese salute fist and palm, or prayer hands, the Japanese bow.

If your people defend their informality O.K. if they claim it's only in movies or US from movies, O.K.

Sometime it says hello. Sometimes it says you are my senior and I respect your advice. Sometimes it says I acknowledge my loyalty to what your instruction (because I would like to learn)...

What Humility can do for you in fighting...it might keep you from talking too much or saying the wrong things and get people irritated with your arrogance or ...pretty much it keeps you from people not liking you more than ones natural unlikeableness.

When you are humble you night could learn more because they want to helpyou if you are respectful, but hesitant to give you what they worked to learn if you are not humble or are not showing common traditions of respect, respect those older than you...respect your teachers, respect your parents...

Some touch the brim of their hat/cap to something orother the other person. I understood it to be a way of respecting. Some will nod. Some smile (which suggest something along the l=ines of I hope you had a good day/I had a rough day too/ I hope that you feel better...)

A lot of communication with small things--a smile, a nod a handshake, a tip of the hat, a salute...

The palm and fist salute is a defense also an attack simultaneous ish actually. Do you attack with the salute? Not necessarily. But the option is there.

Could you hurt people? I take it yes. But you theoretically do not just because you can.

Some things cannot properly be explained except by ecperiencing ing it first-hand.

If you don't know Oh well. If you find out, good for you. If you don't care. big wup. Be well and I hope speech class went well and goes well for you, one called Vash.

11 53 p.m. 17 September 2003 A

[Vash]

Originally posted by No_Know
You call them bows. I heard of them as salutes and bows would be from Japanese traditions. Because the Chinese don't seem to bow in School. General rule seems to be the Chinese salute fist and palm, or prayer hands, the Japanese bow.

If your people defend their informality O.K. if they claim it's only in movies or US from movies, O.K.

We don't say it's informal. I am the exception at my school. I have not voiced my opinions to my sensei, mostly because I've been unable to attend class 'cause I was stupid and tried to work through a broken rib.

Sometime it says hello. Sometimes it says you are my senior and I respect your advice. Sometimes it says I acknowledge my loyalty to what your instruction (because I would like to learn)...

What Humility can do for you in fighting...it might keep you from talking too much or saying the wrong things and get people irritated with your arrogance or ...pretty much it keeps you from people not liking you more than ones natural unlikeableness.

When you are humble you night could learn more because they want to helpyou if you are respectful, but hesitant to give you what they worked to learn if you are not humble or are not showing common traditions of respect, respect those older than you...respect your teachers, respect your parents...

Some touch the brim of their hat/cap to something orother the other person. I understood it to be a way of respecting. Some will nod. Some smile (which suggest something along the l=ines of I hope you had a good day/I had a rough day too/ I hope that you feel better...)

A lot of communication with small things--a smile, a nod a handshake, a tip of the hat, a salute...

Exactly. I prefer to express respect in a way that is familiar and honest to me. That is a part of my culture. That is what I've been doing for a while.

The palm and fist salute is a defense also an attack simultaneous ish actually. Do you attack with the salute? Not necessarily. But the option is there.

Could you hurt people? I take it yes. But you theoretically do not just because you can.

I do martial arts for the love of it. I have no urge to hurt people. Lessen' they come into Hollywood Video an' act the fool. Then they need a good cuttin.

Some things cannot properly be explained except by ecperiencing ing it first-hand.

If you don't know Oh well. If you find out, good for you. If you don't care. big wup. Be well and I hope speech class went well and goes well for you, one called Vash.

Peace out. Be cool.
11 53 p.m. 17 September 2003 A

[omarthefish]

I read a really interesting book by this Chinese scholar from the early 20th century called, "The Art Of Living". One of the chapters is basically just about how obnoxious this western practice of "the handshake" is. He goes on about how pretentious it is and how it always seems to become some sort of alpha male determination contest. He never knows how hard to squeeze. Too hard, you come off as rude and arrogant. To soft andyour a pansy... Freaking stupid western customs. "Why can't they just make do with a simple bow like we do", he says. Much more respectable and not nearly so invasive.

I'm not making this up and the book was an earnest critique of western and Chinese culture, not a satire.

[No_Know]

"...Be well and I hope speech class went well and goes well for you, one called Vash.

11 53 p.m. 17 September 2003 A"-No_Know


"...Be well and I hope speech class went well and goes well for you, one called Vash.

Peace out. Be cool.
11 53 p.m. 17 September 2003 A "-Vash (supposedly quoting No_Know)

"The victors write the history books"~No_Know heard something like that before.