Martial arts as an business

[ChitownMantis]

(ChitownMantis bowing in to all)

Hello, I have not been on the post for an while but my passion for the arts still burns. (I call it that because that's what it is to me;not just the "martial arts") And I just wanted feedback first on if someone ppppppppppplease knows of an good Gung Fu school in Jacksonville FL. (Yeah, I know Jacksonville) Next what would be the best way to turn the arts into an business without comprising the art form. I would like an envirnoment that it is still filled with traditional aspects,like the actual names of the forms in the orginial translation,understanding the characters,traditional weapon forms,etc. But also I think there is some use for the comptemporary ascept also. I think one can acceive traditional arts in an modern world.

(ChitownMantis bowing out)

Sorry for the misspells in advance

[Kristoffer]

You don't train any MA but wanna open up a school? :confused:

[ChitownMantis]

I have trained in an art. Please read again for an clear understanding please. I am not saying that I am an Gung fu master, I am asking for input. I you have some please I would love for you to respond, if not please keep your comments for someone else. Thank you

(Chitownmantis bowing out)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
You don't train any MA but wanna open up a school? :confused:

Not the first time that it happened.

On another forum some time ago, a Guy bought a Dojo, signed on and than asked tons of questions on how to print certs, get a teacher, run the place, etc.

Don't you know that owning a Dojo/Kwoon is the new money making venture and you can even franchise of the original dojo/kwoon.

;)

[ChitownMantis]

Any way you need not know martial arts, to make as an business but I would help that you do. You might find that the dojo or studios that are out their are not owned by ma practicitioners. It would be an business like any thing else.

[Starchaser107]

jah know staar what a cold breddah:eek:

[Kristoffer]

Don't you know that owning a Dojo/Kwoon is the new money making venture and you can even franchise of the original dojo/kwoon.

lol..
yeah I guess so. Just wanted to check if that was the case with this guy.


Any way you need not know martial arts, to make as an business

You do have to know martial art if you wanna teach it yourself but I guess your bright enough to understand that. Good luck with your school. You might wanna talk to real dojos/kwoons insted of posting on the internet.

[ChitownMantis]

Thank you for you insight. And I understand why you done that and its cool. But what I studies and I am not talking about just punches and kicks, the arts are that much more and I am sure you are an skilled ma student but I the definition of the martial arts impiles that how you cook you eggs in the morning is an martial art, oragamy( making those paper swans) would be an martial art.

And that I feel is the beauty of it

[ChitownMantis]

As an matter of fact their is an thread on Kung Fu forum, "what is kung fu" that is very good you should read it

[Kristoffer]

I know what the term gong fu means, but thank's for the tips :)

[ChitownMantis]

No , the name of the article is Called "what is kung fu". I use Gong Fu because my sifu told me that was the correct way to say it

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ChitownMantis
No , the name of the article is Called "what is kung fu". I use Gong Fu because my sifu told me that was the correct way to say it

Not in Cantonese :D

[Royal Dragon]

Could you post a link to the "What is Kung Fu artical"?

[rogue]

I think one can acceive traditional arts in an modern world. Of course and it's simple, enjoy and even respect the traditions but don't become a slave to the traditions.

[ChitownMantis]

I totally agree with you rogue, that what I what to accomplish for the future.

actual royal dragon that was an mistake it was this one really http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/for4.htm but that one was insightful too.

[ChitownMantis]

how would you say it in cantonese joedoe?

[ChitownMantis]

Joedoe is Cantonese an standard in martials art because I have seen where there would be an english then an Cantonese translation for ,like the name of an move or form

[Vash]

Originally posted by ChitownMantis
but I the definition of the martial arts impiles that how you cook you eggs in the morning is an martial art, oragamy( making those paper swans) would be an martial art.

And that I feel is the beauty of it

**** Straight! The Art of Bacon no George Forman Grill!
Bowl kun Total!

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ChitownMantis
Joedoe is Cantonese an standard in martials art because I have seen where there would be an english then an Cantonese translation for ,like the name of an move or form

Kung fu is closer to the Cantonese pronunciation of the term. Gong fu is closer to the Mandarin.

Cantonese is a widely used dialect in general, but especially so in many of the Southern arts. This is due largely to the fact that a lot of the arts in the west came via Hong Kong, where until 1999 Cantonese was the spoken dialect.

[ChitownMantis]

Thank you joedoe and yes vash I am an believer too.

Good Night to you all but if you have more input please give it at will

(ChitownMantis bowing out)

[Jook Lum]

What style have you studied?

[Vash]

D*mn, this is gonna be more fun than
http://www.churchofspongebob.org

[Dark Knight]

To learn to run a school got to The Martial Arts Industry Association http://www.masuccess.com/

[apoweyn]

Chitown Mantis,

Could you tell us a little more about your background? Styles studied (Mantis is a good guess), years of experience, etc.?

If you try to tackle martial arts as a business before first tackling it as a course of study, you're going to fall into the very trap that many martial arts businesses do. Charging people money for too much flash and not enough substance.


Stuart B.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Once upon a time...
A friend of mine purchased a shop in a mini-mall. He had a dream...the dream to rake in cash by teaching Martial Arts. Little did he know one must know a martial art, or at least know somebody who knows a martial art. When opening day came, he still didn't have a sifu/sensei, so he grabbed the first to low-life punks he could find. A beginner in BJJ and a guy who read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Very few people signed up because of its shaky ciriculum and lack of a base style. To make matters worse the two "teachers" had quite the attitude and started bitter rivalries with other ligitamate schools. The school closed two months later and the "teachers" never showed thier faces again.

Moral of this story:
"Martial Arts is not made to be a cash cow, its an art. Treat it as such"

[MasterKiller]

If you run your school primarily as a business venture, you may get lots of customers, but I wouldn't count on getting any students; but, then, I doubt if you care about that.

[bung bo]

don't want to sound mean, but i agree with MasterKiller(strongly). would this be your main source of income? if it is, is your curriculum hardcore? my shrfu has lost students because of an infamous shin conditioning drill that hurts a lot. but, you know, anything that's worth anything is not easy. plus, you should be a very accomplished martial artist if you want to start teaching.

[GeneChing]

Convert it to a health club. There's a lot more money in that. One of my buddies works at a Curves franchise. Now there's some long green.

[SaMantis]

OK chitown, assuming that you are already a master of gong fu, my suggestion would be to take some straight-up business courses at your friendly college extension. Also, visit the SBA website for some basic business tools and a calendar of business events & cheap-as-free courses.

Learning business basics won't guarantee you riches, and it won't compromise your traditional training focus. It will keep the wolves (and the IRS) from your door when it comes to money management.

[ChitownMantis]

(Chitownmantis bowing in)

Sorry if I have not chimed in on your theads but from what I see, there are alot of you assuming that I am bring this up because i want to rack in the dough.

1. If you think of running an business you would want it to be successful. (i.e the amount of revenue generated,customer base,the amount of profit generated over the months and years,etc)

2. Do don't right off assume that I have not studied the arts just because I ask this question. (Eventhough, I do understand that some people have an school and do not know the art they are teaching. And if you would have went to the link i post earlier on you would have gotten an different view on the matter)

3. I studied Northern Shaolin 7 star praying mantis, I am not an master ,nor do i think one can be an master. Only an highly devolped student. (in which, again the article on the site i post earlier would again give you insight)

4 I brought this up because I feel that I could get good feed back from senior students like you out their and with some of you I gotten pointless feedback. (Really sound like Charley brown's teacher, wa, wa, wa. wawa wa .wa)

5.And if you also read before I asked if any one know of an good school in jacksonville. I think that would have been an clue that I wasnt an master.( I dont believe that an so called master would be ask were an school would be)

But thank the ones who gave great feed back, Dark Knight,gene ching, sa mantis, captinpickaxe

Please let keeps it intellecual, not sinical. If you have some great info to give, constructive feedback, i would be honored. If not, just don't say anything. Let's give this discussion the true spirit of what martial arts is. :) But in all I thank everyone for their input.

(ChitownMantis bows to all)

[Kristoffer]

3. I studied Northern Shaolin 7 star praying mantis, I am not an master ,nor do i think one can be an master. Only an highly devolped student. (in which, again the article on the site i post earlier would again give you insight)


IMO You should train more and become better in your art. Not open up a school of your own. That's just disrespectful in my eyes.

[ChitownMantis]

kristoffer you dont listen well do you?

1. I said in my future plans.

2.I am look for input

3. I am look for good input for senior students

If that is not you , shut your cake hole!!!

and again I have that same problem with you you before read it all the way thru so you can u.n.d.e.r.s.t.a.n.d.

Thank you

[Kristoffer]

Your not a master?
You don't think you'll ever be a master?

Hmmm... Yeah I'd really wanna train with you :D What are you gonna teach? How to tie your shoes? I'm sorry that you can't take criticism.. I wasn't planning to bash you, nor flame you in pety arguments but you come of sounding very naive, and very ignorant. Many here have already given you hints but you obviously don't care to listen, only here what you wanna here. It sounds like you have made up your mind already so why are you pesting these boards with this novice money hungry crap?

[Laughing Cow]

ChitownMantis.

Not to rain on your parade here, but you come here and ask the exat question that we criticise flakes, frauds and mcdojos for.

And than when you don't get the answer that you like you tell people to shut their cake-holes and to get lost.

As far as I am concerned till you got permission from your Sifu you ain't got NO business about even thinking open your own school.
Unless you are breaking away from the styles you studied to teach your OWN style which is based on YOUR experience and studies.
Of course you can't claim to be teaching style/s that you ain't qualified to teach.

Being a good MA does not mean that you will be a good teacher.
Being a good teacher/MA does not mean that you will be a successful businessman or Kwoon owner.

I know many a Sifu that started their own kwoon only to have a handful of students for the first few years and teaching from community hall or similar because they could not afford their own property.

Just some thoughts.

[ChitownMantis]

The both of you are very rude and I hope that I never get to the point were my arrogance out weights my knowledge of the arts.

Thats why I try not to come to boards because I cant learn or carry on an intellectual conv because of a-holes like you.

Excuse the misspells and type-o's

[ChitownMantis]

if you take the time to listen you would be better off

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by ChitownMantis
The both of you are very rude and I hope that I never get to the point were my arrogance out weights my knowledge of the arts.

Thats why I try not to come to boards because I cant learn or carry on an intellectual conv because of a-holes like you.

Excuse the misspells and type-o's

You can call me names and rude, it sure as hell won't get you anymore respect from me or other people reading your posts.

You don't want to come online, fine by me.
But maybe the problem is with your attitude and not the MA that you meet online.

Maybe when you have spend 20+yrs on MA studies like the guys you call a-holes & rude and some of those are kwoon owners and teachers your viewpoint will change a bit.

Till you got teaching permission you better spend your energy on perfecting your skill and less about thinking of your own school.

Have a good day.

[apoweyn]

ChitownMantis,

It's clear that you haven't liked many of the answers you've gotten so far. Mine included by the sounds of it. But I think you'd benefit from hearing your own advice. Listen and understand.

Telling people to shut their cakeholes is the wrong direction to head in. You should know better.



Originally posted by ChitownMantis
(Chitownmantis bowing in)

This is a personal thing, but that's really not necessary. I'll assume you're being respectful based on the tone of your messages. Not this ritual. And typing that you're bowing to people then going on to tell them to shut their cakeholes (even if it is in a subsequent post) is just daft.


Sorry if I have not chimed in on your theads but from what I see, there are alot of you assuming that I am bring this up because i want to rack in the dough.

Personally, I don't think it matters. Obviously, I don't want to attend a school where the teacher is obsessed with making cash, regardless of his excellence at his art. But by the same token, I don't want to attend a school where the teacher isn't experienced enough to teach, regardless of how pure his motives are.

I may have missed it, but I'm going to ask again. What's your experience so far? If you're planning on running a business in the future, power to you. I'd give you any advice if I were a successful business owner myself. But I can advise you a little on being a teacher. Have enough experience to be confident with 1) what you know and 2) what you DON'T know. If you get into it too early, you're likely to fall into all sorts of traps in order to preserve your own sense of teaching authority.


1. If you think of running an business you would want it to be successful. (i.e the amount of revenue generated,customer base,the amount of profit generated over the months and years,etc)

Absolutely. And I'm glad to hear that you're going to take that aspect seriously. Nothing worse than finding a school you like that just can't stay afloat.


2. Do don't right off assume that I have not studied the arts just because I ask this question. (Eventhough, I do understand that some people have an school and do not know the art they are teaching. And if you would have went to the link i post earlier on you would have gotten an different view on the matter)

Or you could just answer the question and tell us your experience. I believe I checked your profile yesterday and found nothing. If I'm mistaken about that, I apologize.


3. I studied Northern Shaolin 7 star praying mantis, I am not an master ,nor do i think one can be an master. Only an highly devolped student. (in which, again the article on the site i post earlier would again give you insight)

How highly developed a student are you? How long have you trained?


4 I brought this up because I feel that I could get good feed back from senior students like you out their and with some of you I gotten pointless feedback. (Really sound like Charley brown's teacher, wa, wa, wa. wawa wa .wa)

There's a fair amount of cynicism on this board. But I feel like perhaps you just didn't hear what you wanted to hear. You wanted to hear unwavering support. And you didn't get it. So you've decided that there's no merit to these comments.


5.And if you also read before I asked if any one know of an good school in jacksonville. I think that would have been an clue that I wasnt an master.( I dont believe that an so called master would be ask were an school would be)

People read and understood that. That's what lead us to believe that your primary focus at the moment should be your own education. Not other peoples'.


But thank the ones who gave great feed back, Dark Knight,gene ching, sa mantis, captinpickaxe

Please let keeps it intellecual, not sinical. If you have some great info to give, constructive feedback, i would be honored. If not, just don't say anything. Let's give this discussion the true spirit of what martial arts is. :) But in all I thank everyone for their input.

Perhaps people are overly cynical, but it generally stems from a love of martial arts, just like your actions do. People hate seeing them b*stardized. So sometimes we overreact. But I think you should be careful not to dismiss the advice here too quickly. Even the advice you don't like.


(ChitownMantis bows to all)

Write with respect. Bag the rituals. My opinion.


Stuart B.

[Starchaser107]

i dont see why any respectable sifu should give you any percentage of thier hard earned money for doing nothing.
you make me want to puke mantis.

[chen zhen]

Mantis guy:

[ChitownMantis]

Well thank you for the feedback apoweyn.

I understand what you are saying and if I was rude myself I am sorry but I dont like when peoples focus is just rude and not giving knowledge like I hoped I would get here.

And if I had 10 years or 10 months of train respect should be warrented. Thats one of the things that I love about the arts.

My training in an actual school 5 months , outside of that 2years. But between school and other things didnt have the time to train in an gym.

But I have possible future plans to do this and the first thread explains that ,so that why i said people are not listening. Yes I am still an novice as far as the arts are concerned that way I raised the question of martial art in an business sence.

I am not getting angry because of the answers, its because I have stated my position and people assume I am this snake that is not look for knowledge. If i am going about the wrong way just let me know. I dont need the negativity

[apoweyn]

ChitownMantis,


Well thank you for the feedback apoweyn.

I understand what you are saying and if I was rude myself I am sorry but I dont like when peoples focus is just rude and not giving knowledge like I hoped I would get here.

Well, I apologize too. People are a bit cynical here. Regrettably, they have good cause.

Two years is obviously too little time to start teaching. Five months certainly is. But I understand that you're not talking about teaching now. But in the future. And as long as that's your focus, then I applaud you thinking in advance like this. If you're serious, then dedicating yourself to martial arts training (obviously) and a solid business background is a really good plan.

People worry, though, that overenthusiastic beginners will skimp on their own education to start teaching other people. Regardless of the motivation (money, respect, or even just a love of martial arts), ready is ready.

You've got a long time before you'll be prepared to teach. I'd been training for about 10 years before I was ready to teach (though I started teaching before that, which was a mistake). And about 15 before I was actually good at it. (And my skill as a teacher even now is up for debate.)

So for now, perhaps you should concentrate on getting into a legitimate school. Not one that'll get you promoted the fastest. But one that will give you a good, solid skill base. Work your way through their ranks (and I don't necessarily mean their belt ranks). And perhaps become an assistant instructor. A lot of being a good teacher is being a bad teacher first. Being an assistant will give you a chance to hammer out some of the rough edges under the eye of someone more experienced than you. That'll be stressful, but invaluable.


And if I had 10 years or 10 months of train respect should be warrented. Thats one of the things that I love about the arts.

True. But that's not particular to the arts. It'd be nice if respecting other people were our default in most situations. But realistically, respect has to be earned. As for KFO, stick around, make your points, defend your points intelligently and earnestly, and it won't be long before you'll have your respect. Dig?


My training in an actual school 5 months , outside of that 2years. But between school and other things didnt have the time to train in an gym.

I can understand that. Married, working full time, working on getting back into school. There are lots of reasons not to be training properly. But they'll all need to be resolved if you plan on teaching for a living. As a teacher, you'll be selling yourself. And you'll need to have confidence in your product. That confidence can only rightfully come from experience.


But I have possible future plans to do this and the first thread explains that ,so that why i said people are not listening. Yes I am still an novice as far as the arts are concerned that way I raised the question of martial art in an business sence.

If you feel people aren't listening, don't lose your cool. Just restate your point. Build on it. Help them understand. It'll be good practice for teaching.


I am not getting angry because of the answers, its because I have stated my position and people assume I am this snake that is not look for knowledge. If i am going about the wrong way just let me know. I dont need the negativity

State your position again. And again if needs be. Defend your position. You're right that you shouldn't be attacked right from the get go. But reality is what it is. And you're going to need to learn how to deal with it. Convince us that you're serious. Pretty much everyone here has, at one time or another, had to defend their own statements, actions, etc.

The people here can be harsh sometimes (myself included). But you can benefit from the hazing. People here will force you to think about what you're saying. And generally, that's a good thing.


Stuart B.

[ChitownMantis]

Thank you! apoweyn. That's that knowledge I was look for, thank you.

And as far as schools I am in Jacksonville and that only school I see that seem cool is an school that teach Tai chi chen style.

Kam Lee Chinese Arts Center(http://www.chineseartscenter.com/klcac)

If you know anyone that has any info on this school or the sifu I would be thankful.

[uki]

martial arts is not a business... only simple minded folks attempt to make money off of other simple minded folks by attempting to teach something as simple as martial arts. :p

[David Jamieson]

uki, you keep making us all revisit the past.

This thread is so 7 and a half years ago.

:p

[uki]

uki, you keep making us all revisit the past.you clicked by choice...errrr... pre-destination manifested as the experience of choice in this three dimensional body...


This thread is so 7 and a half years ago.time is inconsequential. :D

[David Jamieson]

you clicked by choice...errrr... pre-destination manifested as the experience of choice in this three dimensional body...
time is inconsequential. :D

I clicked and THEN saw the date on this dead horse you dragged up for another beating.

Time is arbitrary, yes, though there is a definite something to it...

anyways, you're a *******.

:D

[Drake]

time is inconsequential. :D

Actually... it is.

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/cool_kid.jpg

[uki]

Actually... it is.

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/cool_kid.jpg
no wonder you have a desk job... the sight of you on the battlefield might offer some serious morale problems. :p

[Drake]

Not if I have THIS!
http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Features/2008/05/Peripheral%20Visions/WII23.feat.nes_glove3--article_image.jpg

[ChitownMantis]

martial arts is not a business... only simple minded folks attempt to make money off of other simple minded folks by attempting to teach something as simple as martial arts.

So, how did you learn if you did at all. From watching martial arts movies? Making money whether it be good intentions or bad is based on the indivdual. And Martial arts is not simple....I have not posted on this form for a number of years. And when I orginally ask the question I was looking for insight instead of people that like taking shots. I mean if you learned martial arts and you pay a teacher to teach you what would you call it? Hello, a business. This is not even worth talking about anymore.

[David Jamieson]

martial arts is not a business... only simple minded folks attempt to make money off of other simple minded folks by attempting to teach something as simple as martial arts.

So, how did you learn if you did at all. From watching martial arts movies? Making money whether it be good intentions or bad is based on the indivdual. And Martial arts is not simple....I have not posted on this form for a number of years. And when I orginally ask the question I was looking for insight instead of people that like taking shots. I mean if you learned martial arts and you pay a teacher to teach you what would you call it? Hello, a business. This is not even worth talking about anymore.

hmmmn 7 years later...maybe it is good that uki revived this.

Martial arts teaching is a business in many ways. Many people run schools as NPO's though, but money is need to keep lights on, hvac, insurance etc.

Not to mention, why should anyone give their hard won lessons to you for nothing? You must be reciprocal in the relationship.

I think that what your skills are are what helps you to eat, drink, have shelter etc.

If you committed to the study and practice of kung fu and someone else wants that too, well, they have to offer something up don't they?

Or do you think martial arts teachers should all be starving artists? Distracted and stressed by their other job that sucks the life out of them with a commute and a headache?

If you can do what you love, do it with passion and share it with the correct intention, then that is worth a lot. That is a commodity.

You can't buy Kung fu, that's for sure. But you gotta ante up to get in the game and that's that.

do soldiers not get paid to train other soldiers? Do western boxing coaches not get payed for training fighters? Does your high school wrestling teacher get paid for his knowledge?

You better believe there is an aspect of business when someone wants something and someone else is willing to impart it.

It's fantasy to think all kung fu teachers are mr. miyagis. It's also dangerous to maintain that type of thinking.

Be more workaday in your approach to martial arts. I have NO problem with paying a good teacher for information and methods they have that I do not.

[slink]

martial arts is not a business... only simple minded folks attempt to make money off of other simple minded folks by attempting to teach something as simple as martial arts.

So, how did you learn if you did at all. From watching martial arts movies? Making money whether it be good intentions or bad is based on the indivdual. And Martial arts is not simple....I have not posted on this form for a number of years. And when I orginally ask the question I was looking for insight instead of people that like taking shots. I mean if you learned martial arts and you pay a teacher to teach you what would you call it? Hello, a business. This is not even worth talking about anymore.

Don't agree with you. You can earn money from your hobby by providing private classes or courses. Yes, you need investment into this business, and money can be an issue. BUT you can take pls cash loan (https://plscashadvance.com) and invest it at the very beginning, and afterwards payback it. So, it is a real business and model is working fine in our modern world mate :)