Traditional vs. NHB question

[IronFist]

Here's something I thought of today. Tell me if you agree or not.

In traditional schools they show you counters to moves. For example, it might be like "if he comes at you with this punch, you do this bam bam bam and he gets owned." Now, there's nothing wrong with that, and the techniques are effective and will work in that case. But it seems like they're only teaching you what to do if the guy throws ONE punch. If the guy is planning a followup attack, you're going to get screwed.

But in boxing and kickboxing gyms, they don't teach you like described above. They're like "alright, he's gonna attack you a bunch, so defend and hit back."

And that's what happens in NHB. No one throws one punch and let's the other guy tan da and then pak da and then chain punch, because as you're tan da'ing he's coming right back at you with a cross.

I guess.

I dunno.

What do you think?

[SevenStar]

It's good in the beginning. Our bjj class is taught that way, I when I am teaching the judo classes, I teach that way. It really helps, becaue there are alot of if then scenarios. You are getting students used to the possibilties of what could happen.

example

if someone is in your guard, attempting the basic pass, however, he's not paying attention to his arm position and base, then he may be setting himself up to be triangled. So:

scenario 1.

if his bodyweight is forward and one hand is forward while the other is back far enough, trap his arm, shift your hips and triangle him.

BUT

he may posture up when he feels the triangle coming. If he does:

scenario 2.

Transition to an armbar


Now, the student us getting used to transitioning to different techniques, and is not caught up in only using one thing and hoping it will work.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by IronFist
What do you think?

I think what you're calling traditional here, I would call either bad or maybe introductory.

[IronFist]

A lot of things that you see being demonstrated by traditional schools also rely on the attacker leaving his arm out after a punch. Boxers and stuff don't fight like that.

[Christopher M]

Ditto.

[ComeToJesus]

They just teach it that way, with the arm extended out and not coming back. How else are you supposed to learn the details of the technique. Unfortunately most schools don't step up the training in this area and people usually end up being only able to do the technique in slo-mo.
What I'm trying to say is, it's not the martial arts that rely on the person to leave the arm out. It's the people with insufficient training that do.

[Laughing Cow]

Ironfist.

What you call "traditional" I call low-level or taught by a bad teacher or a student relying on the teacher to spoonfeed him and doesn't think/learn by himself.

I honestly don't know where people get the idea from that TMA only teaches certain fixed counters to certain moves.

Those as far as I am concerned are EXAMPLES.

IME, what you see as an outsider of a style is very different from what you see as a student.

Here are some examples:
1.) I am currently preapring for a demo at a national TJQ meet, the form we demo is a REDUCED from that shows maybe 1/3 of the techs in the form.
Yes, the full form is available on Video, but it is only the lowest level of execution.

2.) People say that OLD Chen TJQ had more Fa-Jing than the modern one.
I have seen my Sifu and elders perform our forms and the Fa-Jing increased by multiples from the released tapes.
Also some moves and postures change drastically between a beginner student and an advanced student.

Cheers.

[IronFist]

I dunno, it's late and I'm just making conversation.

I forgot what I was going to say.

[old jong]

I hate to ask but... Have you ever seen something past the very basic beginner stuff in a "traditional" school?...

And...Do you really think they...(Boxing/kick-boxing) will throw a mere beginner in the ring with the sole advice "to defend and hit back" without some basic drilling and preparation first?...

[Raatra]

I agree, thats basic stuff in traditional style schools. In my experience they move on to the opponent throwing 3 or 4 hand and leg techs in succession, but this teaches you the beginnings of flow. Once you get a decent ability to flow, then you just do that with opponents and the instructor now usually only teaches new concepts for you to incorporate into your flow sparring.

However, the whole "leaving the arm out after a punch" thing i also agree with and sometimes, i have noticed that it never gets moved passed. This is a bad habit to train for both the attacker and the defender. Anyone who has done wing chun and learned all its fancy arm traps and tried to use them after training on someone that left out thier attacking arms like that knows it just doesnt work like you thought it would. The trapping style techs work, but not if you dont train on people that retract their attacks. Why? Because most people retract their attacks, even people without any training.

[IronFist]

old jong said:
And...Do you really think they...(Boxing/kick-boxing) will throw a mere beginner in the ring with the sole advice "to defend and hit back" without some basic drilling and preparation first?...

Did I say that?

In boxing gyms they don't have you learn any techniques that require the attacker to leave his arm out. They don't even teach them to you that way at first so that's already putting the boxer one step ahead of the MAist.

The only reason they probably don't teach techniques against kicks that require the kicking leg to be held out is because no one can balance like that for very long. haha. j/k

Ok more questions but I'm putting them in new threads.

[Vash]

Originally posted by IronFist
In boxing gyms they don't have you learn any techniques that require the attacker to leave his arm out. They don't even teach them to you that way at first so that's already putting the boxer one step ahead of the MAist.

In a boxing match, **** straight. The "hanging arm" technique I've seen used only in slow motion demonstration of a technique. Certainly not a good idea for the real deal.

The only reason they probably don't teach techniques against kicks that require the kicking leg to be held out is because no one can balance like that for very long. haha. j/k



Hell, no!!! It's because EVERYONE knows a BJJ guys gonna come out of no where and spear the hell out of ya!
:D