Boxing without gloves

[IronFist]

Boxers train and fight with gloves on, and by now we've all learned that this is to protect the hand, and not the other guy's face.

So say someone is pretty good at boxing, but then they get in a fight on the street and someone throws a punch at them. How do boxing style blocks work without gloves on? I see boxers using the padding on their gloves to stop punches. Would that work without gloves on? Getting hit in the back of the fist hurts like freaking hell and there's no way I would ever try to stop a punch like that.

So how do they do it?

[Judge Pen]

They hit first. The other guy can't hit back. Just a guess.

Chances are that two trained boxers won't meet on the street and one of the guy would probably employ less disciplined punches and not the jab combinations we see trained boxers throw. Thus, they wouldn't have to block the punch in the same manner.

BTW, I saw "Rocky" Juarez knock another fighter cold with a left hook 26 seconds into the first round of their fight this weekend. I know everyone says that the gloves protect the hands and not the other person, but I think that is only partially true. I couldn't imagine how much damage that punch would have done without gloves (to the guy's head, not Rocky's hand).

[CaptinPickAxe]

I can tell you right now, Boxing gloves feel much better on the face than an unprotected punch. It does protect the hands, but depending on how heavy the gloves are, they can soften blows as well.

[MasterKiller]

Boxing gloves do primarily protect the other guy's face.

Smaller, light-weight sparring gloves are used to protect you hands.


So how do they do it?Well, that's the inherent flaw in Western Boxing. It produces some hellafide ring fighters, but it has weaknesses, just like any other style, especially those that train primarily to compete within the confines of certain rules and equipment limitations.

[apoweyn]

Ideally, the backs of the gloves is not a boxing defense. When people get tired, it happens. But ideally, defense consists of slipping, weaving, etc. In which case, gloves won't really be an issue.

Personally, without gloves, that sort of covering up usually involves me putting my elbow or forearm in the line of fire at an angle where things will glance off rather than hit straight on.

I've started hitting the heavy bag with palms now as well, rather than closed fists. For that very reason.


Stuart B.

[Black Jack]

I would go with the slip and punch compared to a boxer attempting a static block unless that was the only option at the time. Old bare knuckle taught methods of deflection/covering with the outside of the forearm, elbow, upper arm and shoulder.

Mendoza's guard is a good place for elbow sheilds to guard against an incoming strike. As is a standard guard for body shots. Jack Johnson used a jujitsu style cross guard from which he would use limb destructions on incoming blows, chops to the biceps, shots to the back of the hand.

IMO boxings best defense is its offense movement coupled with its slipping, ducking, and nimble footwork to decrease the chance of getting tagged while attacking. If they get tagged they also may have the backup of shedding to lessen any force the blow may of had behind it. Something a full time boxer may of picked up in all that darn sparring.

Cheers

[SanSoo Student]

IMO I would think boxers would protect themselves from punches with their forearms. Even without padding, the forearms can take quite a descent amount of damage before showing any type of bruising. The structure the forearm bones-radius and alna-with the forearm muscles make it virtually impossible to be broken with a straight on jab or straight punch.

So block with the forearms and counter, but most boxers usually end up messing up their wrists or break their knuckles. The handwraps usually eliminate the problem of wrist alignment, so their wrists usually move around in a "street" fight and sometimes they break the hand going for a punch in the jaw.

[IronFist]

This thread wasn't supposed to be about the purpose of boxing gloves. It was supposed to be about how boxers block when they're not wearing gloves.

[IronFist]

Ok I'll break it down more.

How would a boxer, without gloves, block the following punches:

1. jab
2. cross
3. hook
4. uppercut
5. overhand (or whatever it's called)

Block, don't say slip, bob, or weave.

[MasterKiller]

I don't think he would block; I think he would slip, bob, or weave.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I don't think he would block; I think he would slip, bob, or weave.

Exactly. What are we supposed to say?!

Boxers might absorb (roll with) an uppercut, simply because you can't bob and weave body shots. But everything else, slipping and weaving.

You could shield against a hook. But preferable to weave it instead. Shielding a hook still involves taking a lot of cranial impact compared with weaving.


Stuart B.

[Starchaser107]

pretty much yeah.

[Starchaser107]

its like asking how would a tkd practicioner use his feet in a fight.

dont say kick or move around.

[Liokault]

IMO I would think boxers would protect themselves from punches with their forearms

As a guy who trains with and with out gloves I can say that what lets you hide behind your gloves/forearms and not get hit is not your gloves but the thinkness of the other guys gloves noy being able to get between your arms. This is obviously much less use with out gloves.

On the issue of gloves protecting the hands and not the face. reading books by bear knuckle fighters it is clear that broken hands are very common to say the least.
The film of bare knuckle fighting (gypsies) that I have seen looks like boxing but with a great reluctance to throw punches...but when punches start the fight ends very fast. I think that gloves make a fight last much longer and provide a better show than bare fist. In the longer term fighting with gloves on has to do more damage as the fighters get hit more!



Ironfist, if you do a search you will find lots of info about the changing face of boxing on this forum.

[yenhoi]

IF: just standard responses, remember how much context and energy play a role in everything:

1. jab
2. cross
3. hook
4. uppercut
5. overhand (or whatever it's called)

1) Catch, check, or slip
2) slip, or check
3) bob and weave, or some other way of moving out of the way.
4) block with elbows, generally keeping your lines covered.
5) same as cross

most of the time just move your feet when he moves his hands, and you will be out of most danger until you advance to the great art of setting people up and of course the art of mobility.

you can also counter-attack as defense, jab or lead hook, most often.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

IF:

without slippng, bobbing, or weaving, that sucks man.

As far as blocking goes, the boxer will use his elbows combined with the waist to "block" most anything. I would think most of the time he would choose to either attack, slip, bob and weave, jump or move. He also has the ability to check the other boxers offending elbows, hips, and shoulders as the fight moves. Many boxer-drills have the boxer checking or manipulating his opponents elbows, hips, and shoulders before-during-and after attacking or defending.

Boxers also duck.

:eek:

[Crimson Phoenix]

personal experience:

you CANNOT box without gloves like you do with them, for sure. Some punches can be blocked the same way (slap the jabs), but some definitely need adaptations (hooks particularly).

also, I can assure you that gloves indeed FACILITATE KOs...without gloves it's much more messy, but KO is less frequent...the power is more focused, hence the brain doesn't move that much inside of the skull. You can have a completely shattered face and still be conscious, whereas with gloves you can be KO and your baby face almost intact...

[Kristoffer]

yeah.. can't add more to this

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
personal experience:

you CANNOT box without gloves like you do with them, for sure. Some punches can be blocked the same way (slap the jabs), but some definitely need adaptations (hooks particularly).

also, I can assure you that gloves indeed FACILITATE KOs...without gloves it's much more messy, but KO is less frequent...the power is more focused, hence the brain doesn't move that much inside of the skull. You can have a completely shattered face and still be conscious, whereas with gloves you can be KO and your baby face almost intact...

Cool.

[yenhoi]

IF:

There are some threads on this forum about pre-queens-rules boxing. Im sure you can find them, if anything, ask blackjack or someone like that for those types of links.

You might even find stuff on hsing-i forums, believe it or not. Modern day boxing techniques are primarily for the ring.

[bustr]

Liokault

Where did you see the bare knuckle fighting by gypsies? Is it online?

[IronFist]

Guys, I don't care about the evolution of boxing. I simply wanted to know how boxing performed when a direct crossover to actual fighting was made.

[yenhoi]

Ok.

Dont forget things like bicep stops vs the hook, and shoulder stop vs the straight..

Clinching.

:confused:

[Crimson Phoenix]

I shied away from the biceps block on hooks, and do it only when I'm caught too late to do anything else. There are several reasons to that. The first one is that it simply hurts if you take it on the wrong spot (a tender spot, or a protruding bone). Bare knuckles generate a sharp and "pointy" power, that can really numb your arm or generate a very unpleasant pulsating pain on the spot that was hit, if the guy knows how to properly turn his fist on a hook (lot of them don't, they turn their fist only halfway, maybe precisely because they are used to the big striking surface of the gloves). Also, you have to hold your arm real close to your head, because chances are if he got a decent amount of power you could feel first his blow to your arm, and second your own arm hitting the side of your head from the resulting blow, which is twice painful. Not to mention that these akward rebounding effects can make you lose some timing (mentally and physically). If you do squeeze in your arm properly, it still is an akward position.
I really don't like it.
Against a hook there's nothing better than stepping or evade, and it's easier said than done. The next best choice would be, IMHO, to jam it early at the forearm level by extending your own arm. It doesn't work that well with guys who can throw a hook by using the body rotation, and not the shoulder power, because of the shorter and more efficient structure they adopt (tough to describe, but easy to show the difference). On the other hand this kind of "connected hooks" ony work at very close range, if the range is longer you have to open the arm and shoulder a little, and the "early jam block" becomes easier.

As for stopping punches with your palms, I found it a valid tactics. I personally have a decent palm conditionning (thanks to white crane) but I bet even an untrained palm should do the job because it is a naturally strong structure. Block with the heel of the palm, higher your wrist could fold. Not that painful, but giving a sense of "mushy block" both to you and your opponent, which might invite him to throw some more, and make you lose some timing once again. If you send your palm early in contact of his jab or cross, you will jam his punch and give him an unpleasing return shock in his arm or shoulder, that you can sue to gain the opportunity...

My favorite move, when blocking linear punches, however, is the regular savate slap. You just slap the incoming punch to the side. It's a very light block that requires almost no energy and that is surprisingly efficient when you caught the trick. Indeed, linear punches have their energy concentrated in a straight line, and have very little resistance on the sides, so by slapping them you just redirect them to the side of your head, just the amount needed not to be touched, it's very nice. Don't be too relaxed though, some have good arms and structure, so the slapping has to be adapted in strenght. If you slap too lightly, or to late, you can kiss the sides of your cheeks goodbye. You can even make that block an attack: slap hard and sharp to gradually numb his arm. It has several drawbacks though, specially strategically (I can comment on that later if you want), but it can be quite useful in time...
In ziran men they have blocks that instead of using the palm slap uses the heart of the fist and the protruding knuckles to litterally strike the incoming arm in a very painful way. Someone showed that to me once, and believe me after such a treatment your will to punch really fades away.

Yenhoi mentionned the shoulder block, and it can be a very valid tactic provided you're one time ahead of your opponent: it's akward to do as a reaction, but a very good startup for a counter if you have read the opponent's game, because you can use the shoulder to bump off the attack while your body is already moving for the big one. Blacktaoist, on his site, shows a very goods use of the shoulder bump, that he uses to redirect the punch (it's like he's slapping it with his shoulder instead of with the palm as I described), and at the same time or with a little off-time he sends his own attack as a counter. You can do that when advancing (my fav'), but BT seems quite proficient using it during a backward evade.

All of this based on my personal experience, and that of "colleagues" that I have no doubt know what they are talking about...
Dang you make me want to go at it again with your threads!!!

[IronFist]

good discussion