Standing figure 4 lock

[Shaolin-Do]

Does anyone know what the reversal to a standing figure 4 lock is?
(specifically a standing figure 4 lock, your right arm locking theirs with left arm bracing the lock)
When you are in the lock, I know to pull your elbow off of their bicep to relieve pressure, but Im not quite sure how to reverse the lock from there... any help would be great. thx.
SD

[truewrestler]

straighten your arm and punch them in the face for being dumb :p

[truewrestler]

Are you referring a move when you have someone's back and then they lock your arm or a technique when you are face-to-face? Is it a straight or bent armlock?

Please clarify...

[Shaolin-Do]

Ok... Ill describe as best I can.
Basically, if they were facing you and you had their right arm locked, their elbow would be bent and their hand by their ear about, your right arm going under their tricep and holding their wrist. Looking at it, it looks like a 4. Once the lock is set, you can brace it by putting your left hand under their elbow and onto your right forearm.

Hope that wasnt confusing... :)

Edit: their right elbow should be rested on your right bicep to make it so they cannot pull out of the lock.

[truewrestler]

ok, that's what I thought...

my first post is correct :p

[Water Dragon]

Once the lock is set, there is no way out (as far as I know). As they are applying the lock, you can straighten your arm out and then circle it down around THEIR arm. This gives you an over-hook. From this position, you can get Diagonal Cut, Cracking, or Forward March from the rear. You may also be able to get a straight arm bar, but that is much harder to accomplish.

[Water Dragon]

Truewrestler, you're post is only partially correct. The loc works well. Hint-It's neither a submission lock, nor a break.

[Shaolin-Do]

Theres a reversal to EVERY lock. :)
once you are locked, slide your elbow off of their bicep, and Im not quite sure where to go from there... possibly lock their hand and drop to horse? But that just sets you both into a more or less "neutral" position...
Theres an anti chin-na to every chin-na... But god d@mn some of them are hard to figure out. :D

Edit: Yes I know better than to try and get out of it while sparring, but Id like to know the reversal anyways... :)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Theres a reversal to EVERY lock. :)
once you are locked, slide your elbow off of their bicep, and Im not quite sure where to go from there...

If they are good, your elbow is going to be wedged in the crook of your elbow. By the time you "slide" out of it, you shoulder will be dislocated.

[truewrestler]

Yes I know better than to try and get out of it while sparring, but Id like to know the reversal anyways...

Have you actually ever been placed in this while sparring? I would find that EXTREMELY suprising.

I mean the guy is placing both of his arms on one side of your body while standing. You should be able to circle behind him at this point and do anything you want.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Have you actually ever been placed in this while sparring? "

Ask WD, sifu kirk is a bad mofo. Doesnt leave me standing tho, as soon as he gets me locked my feet get taken away. :)

[CaptinPickAxe]

Sifu Kirk chokes me for fun:D

[Shaolin-Do]

WD took his beating while he was here too :)
I dont ever try and get out, thats how you get hurt. I was just curious as to what the proper reversal is. CPA and myself tried for a while last night to figure it out, but we cant get to another solid lock from the figure 4 position. Can get to a "neutral" position, but thats no good. :)

[yenhoi]

Ive used a figure 4 'lock' as a takedown, several times in sparring. Of course a takedown or throw has more to it then just getting the lock by itself. Works good vs people with a weak cross (leave it out there.. slow!...)

:eek:

[CaptinPickAxe]

SD, you should check the "Comprehensive Analysis of Shaolin Chin-Na. It has a simalar lock in it and it may have the reversal.
BTW, John wants to go to Shuai Chiao on Thursday with us.

[ShaolinTiger00]

TW is correct.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by truewrestler


Have you actually ever been placed in this while sparring? I would find that EXTREMELY suprising.

I mean the guy is placing both of his arms on one side of your body while standing. You should be able to circle behind him at this point and do anything you want.

Begin in a standard clinch. Your right hand is grabbing theback of his neck with your right forearm draped down over his collar bone. Your left hand is grabbing at the crook of his right elbow, pushing the elbow back.

First, walk him around a little bit to get him watching for the throw.

Next take your right hand from his neck and circle it between your bodies and back up until your right hand is now behind his right elbow. While you are doing this, your shoulder or torso will be pressing against his body.

As soon as your right hand goes behind his right elbow, it snakes thru and grabs his right wrist. At the same time, you abandon your left hand grip on the crook of his elbow and place your left UNDER his right elbow. Push up with your left hand and pull back with your right at the same time to set the lock.

Since the “way out” of this lock is backwards, reap him! (O Soto)

And yes, Kirk is a BAD, BAD man!

[Shaolin-Do]

Yeah, hes quite good at slapping me around to let me know I still suck.
:D
CPA - cool. Dude in my english class is probably gonna start goin with us next week too.

[Shaolin-Do]

Edit - well still need like 3 or 4 more people to be an official squad.

[turbo76]

:)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by turbo76
got a picture of this hold

No, but it's basically just a standing Americana.

[Jook Lum]

One reversal is to turn it into an armbar or elbow break against them.I will try to find a picture,if not i will try to explain it to you.It works very well i have used it many times.

For this one it has to be done before they completely lock it in
or it turns into a battle of strength.If they lock it in you than change to something different.

[Black Jack]

This lock is the basis for one of are silat systems dead locks and its variations called sinking python. To get into the lock, we use close quarter striking first to attack the attacker, to shock him up, knock him offbalance and then if he is still at a angle of opportunity where the positioning of one's body to make this particular hold is operative and if he is still standing, we get in very tight and apply it.

With us we almost always apply it with a sweep. But there is also a downward snap drop and swivel throw verison as well.

The counter pentas to this movement is either a overpush or a underhand smoother before the lock is on followed by a reverse sweep. Its part of what we call pentas or counter attack and it is used in a energy drill fashion.

Cheers

[jon]

"Theres a reversal to EVERY lock."

* Hmm that statement needs to be reworded.

A competant grappler will give you hell in a handbasket when it comes to joint locks and you had better be prepared to get out *before* they manage to solidify a lock.

As a good example im certainly no great grappler but i would be ammazed if someone of a similar size could let me cement a rear naked and *then* manage to worm there way out of it.


Its usualy been my experience that a good grappler (joint locker) will seek to make there locks failsafe and the better they are the more chance they have of doing it.



I guess what im trying to say here is that vs a skilled opponent you *have* to get out of the lock during the set up. You cant simply wait for them to solidify there lock and then try some kind of magic trick to get out.

The lock you have mentioned sounds a bit like a standing Americana which is very easy to get of (during the setup)when your standing. It is very difficualt to get out of however if your on the ground as the leverage is totaly different. Done from the mount and American is a great submission, done from standing its next to useless as it relies to two arms to lock a single.

[Merryprankster]

I share TW and ST00's extreme distrust of standing joint locks as effective ways of doing...well, anything, really.

That said it's clear that if you do get this, a backwards throw of some kind is the next step (ie, WD's suggested O Soto Gari type throw).

I can't imagine getting this on anybody remotely competant with any sort of regularity.

This move depends on your arm being bent. Move your body to straighten your arm. Easier said than done, of course.

[Water Dragon]

I think that maybe you misunderstand the purpose of standing locks MP. That’s OK though, ‘ca use so do about 90 % of the people that practice them. Let’s use my previous example to start from. We are in the clinch I described earlier. You remove your right hand and circle around for the Americana. As you get your right hand behind their right elbow, they sense what you are doing and straighten their arm.

Scenario 1: They straighten their arm out palm up, elbow down. This is the less likely scenario, but a he11 of a gift if they do it. You slide your right arm in so that their elbow joint is now in the crook of your elbow. At the same time, your left hand slides from the crook of your elbow to their right wrist. The Americana has now become an armbar. “Pop” the elbow joint which will get them to shift their weight forward. When they do, sweep them.

Scenario 2: They straighten their arm palm down, elbow up. Truthfully, this is how anyone who knows what they are doing will most likely respond. It cuts down on the chance of the elbow getting popped and opens up counter attacks of your own. Anyhoo, . You slide your right arm in so that your right elbows are crook to crook. At the same time, your left hand slides from the crook of your elbow to their right wrist. Now “pop” them with your right elbow crook which is going to bend the arm so that the tip of their elbow is now pointing to the ceiling. All you have to do now is step behind and you will have a fairly standard Chicken Wing on them. From here, the easiest thing to do is abandon the lock and take the rear naked.

A couple points: It is very likely that your opponent will defend the first lock. That’s OK. Locks are supposed to be strung together just like throws or punches, or if you do BJJ, locks!

Secondly, you should note that the locks are not being used as submissions, bone breaks, dislocations, etc. The locks are being used to manipulate your body into a position where you can be thrown or taken down to the ground. Breaks definitely CAN happen, so be careful! Still, the idea in your head as you are going for locks should be manipulation of structure, not raw damage. It’ll help you flow together.

And for anyone wondering why in the he11 you would want to practice this anyway, go do Judo for a few months exclusively no gi and see how much your grip fighting changes
:)

[Merryprankster]

No, I completely understand the purpose of the standing joint lock--it's an entry and an off-balance. I just don't like them. I think there are better ways to go about this than fishing for a limb in that way. Of course, if you train hard enough using them I suppose they will work.

That's why I said it's clear the follow-up is a throw.

[Shaolin-Do]

Standing locks are useless if you dont train them enough. :rolleyes:
And yes, what I described is pretty much always followed with the takedown. I was just curious as to what type of reversal there was for it.

" "Theres a reversal to EVERY lock."

* Hmm that statement needs to be reworded. "

Nope, it doesnt. There IS a reversal to EVERY lock. No I do not know them, and even if I did, no I probably could not apply most of them. They are still there however...
Ah. I see MP already stated the eficacy of standing locks :)
Just requires significant speed, and crisp technique.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I think there are better ways to go about this than fishing for a limb in that way.

The follow up is definately a throw. I'm curious as to how you prefer to set up throws (not takedowns) in a non-jacketed situation.

Before we start arguing a misunderstandiong, I'm not advocating usinf locks as an exclusive entry system for throwing, just a valid part of it.

Example: We are wrestling with no jacket. I have both my hands into the crooks of your elbows and am pushing them back. I step forward with my right foot to hook in behind your left heel so that I can enter for a standard hip throw. You step out to avoid my leg hooking, so I let go of your left arm and go for a straight armbar with a forward sweep. I may get the sweep, or the match may continue, but this should give you an idea of the flow I'm talking about.

** If we are wearing jackets, I'm just gonna get a grip and throw as this is much easier to do.

[Black Jack]

I am not a hardline follower of standing locks by any means. I don't like complicated things. I would just rather just slam him around with chops, elbows and knees untell I can grab his head and throw him onto the ground.

But I do see a place for some of them after a person has been shocked up, after the attacker has been forced to deal with an attack on diversified targets, thus creating the opening and angulation I need to secure the hold.

I do believe they need a lot of practice of course. But what really does not.

[Merryprankster]

WD, I set up throws off wizzer grips, underhooks, overhooks, double inside control, and collar and elbow ties with a mix of snapping down, shucking, dragging etc to get the guy to step or react in a way that puts the weight where I want it.

I have had significant success with ****zer grip uchi mata, some with the flying mare (drop seio-nage), and a host of hip, back arch throws off of duck-unders to waist control positions as well as over/underhooks.

[Water Dragon]

BlackJack, if striking enters the equation, it's a whole different game. What ya gonna do in a standing grapplingsituation with no strikes?

[Shaolin-Do]

wizzer grips?
Please explain.
This thread is starting to get interesting. :)

[Shaolin-Do]

WD, john wang has a seminar comming up in Austin in like october or november as far as I know... :)

[Merryprankster]

A wizzer grip is when you have an overhook on one arm, but move out to the side with it. The opponent has his arm across your back and you have the arm hooked over top. You use your body weight and shoulder to pressure the arm you have trapped to keep control over your opponent.

[Shaolin-Do]

Ahh... So you do not practice any standing locks? Some of them may wind up getting you hit 1 or 2 times, but the throw youve set is well worth it... And the hits will be off balance and weak.
slaps are great preambles to locks. Good to distort and disorient opponents. Slap to face or crotch.
Pretty much any good hit is enough to stun someone a second to apply a good standing lock... and once that lock is there time to throw. :)
I just like knowing reversals.... because I do. :)

[Water Dragon]

This thread is getting interesting.

Merry, take your description of the ****zer and target his elbow joint with your bicep. Instead of going for the hip toss, reap out his back leg. If you don't get the lock, you still get the throw. It's safe, efficient, and workable in real time.

[Black Jack]

Why is it a different game? Why would there be no available strikes for me to use?

I just tend to think of it as proper continuity of movement. The principle that no one move passes from one position to another without being utilized effectively.

Do I have counterattack holds that work off of not striking, sure, I would just prefer in a perfect enviroment to be able to hit, then control.

Who do you think would have the higher success ratio in the below scenrio?

1. Gent trying to secure a standing elbow joint manipulation/takedown on a fully functional, resisting, attacker.

or

2. Gent slamming a elbow jab into attackers face or ribs before attempting to secure a standing elbow joint manipulation/takedown.

We are talking about more fine motor based locks here right?

Cheers

[Shaolin-Do]

What exactly are we considering a lock?
Ex: opponent punches right hand while squared off, right foot forward. Block it to the outside with the left, underhook the elbow with the right.
We considering this a lock, or a set up?

[Merryprankster]

The difference is that I have better control over his movement than at the elbow joint. A good opponent will limp arm out of the wizzer if you put it on the elbow. Reaping his leg from the back might get you the throw, and it might not.

Please don't get me wrong--I have no doubt that what you do is working for you. I just don't personally like them very much because I think you get better control with other hooks. I really think this is very much an issue of preference.

SD, I don't use standing locks, typically. However, the weak-ass punches and what-nots you are talking about hold true with my grips as well--it's the off balancing that removes the impact, not the lock.

[Shaolin-Do]

"it's the off balancing that removes the impact, not the lock"
I know :)
And in regards to using both hands in the figure 4... for better control yes, but on a weaker opponent it can be locked with 1 hand, the other can be used to strike or press pressure points...
And yes, pressures points hurt like bloody hell once the tendons are stretched.

[Water Dragon]

BlackJack, it’s a lot easier to throw somebody when striking is involved. When you add striking, your handwork hides your footwork. Usually, if you throw punches at the same time that you enter for a throw, your opponent wont even recognize the set up. The cool thing is that you don’t even have to be that good of a boxer, you just need to get him to think about your hands rather than your feet. Compare this to grappling only where your opponent is going to be very aware of any change in your position. It’s much easier to throw someone if striking is involved.

Merry, as far as I’m concerned, we’re simply talking about strategy between 2 different yet similar arts. It’s an exchange of info.
:)

[Merryprankster]

Dig it!

I'm all for that. I really enjoyed watching the SC guy on that one set of vids throw his opponent all over the place.

Are you still in Chicago?

[Water Dragon]

Yup, still in the Chi. You still planning on coming thru one of these days?

The Chang vid is excellant. For another good example of differences between Judo and SC, watch the vid again. But pay very close attention to Chang Tung Sheng's use of footwork to set up the throws.

[Merryprankster]

Can you post the link? I'd like to compare it to what I know.

Yeah, I'll come through one of these days. I have friends in Milwaukee so I'll convince them to head to Chicago w/me.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I have had significant success with ****zer grip uchi mata, some with the flying mare (drop seio-nage), and a host of hip, back arch throws off of duck-unders to waist control positions as well as over/underhooks.

Nice to see someone else likes this form of uchimata as well.

Have you found it really hard to pull off against people significantly heavier than you? This is in contrast to, say, seoi nage or ogoshi, throws that seem a bit more forgiving of weight difference.

[Water Dragon]

Here's the link (http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/video/Chang_sc_3.WMV)

Pay real close attention to the forward sweep and the double leg Uchimata (hip throw with Ho Ti). Those are the best examples of what I'm talking about. Let me know what you think.

[Black Jack]

Wait a minute, we agree then, striking is a excellent maneuver to close range and break down the attacker for either a throw, lock/hold, or a combo lock/hold throw.

I feel like holding hands and singing that wonderfull old coke a cola balad.

I would like to buy the world a......... :D

[Merryprankster]

WD, I don't see any footwork that is markedly different from Judo or wrestling for that matter. Not trying to be a ****, just don't see it. That said, the fellow is clearly very skilled. There was a bit more of a hack to the foot sweeps, but that makes a lot of sense to me.

I didn't see any upper body joint locks either--saw a lot of similarities in control positions--russian tie type throws, head and arm control, etc. I'm not sure if I was supposed to be looking for that.

That double leg uchi mata is a harai goshi in Judo BTW. Good throw!

[Water Dragon]

OK, harai goshi. I usually just go to the judoinfo site, try to find the throw that looks closest to what I'm referring to, and call it that :D

Anyhoo, with the harai goshi example: If you watch the set up for the throw, GM Chang is stepping in behind the throwee's leg and pivotin around that for the entry What it does is stops the opponent from escaping because your legs are now "stuck" together. The Judo guys I've played with tend to pull on the gi to make that space.

This isn't a perfect example of what I mean but check out the seionage on the bottom of this page for an idea of what I'm talking about (http://www.judoinfo.com/video.htm)

Same thing with the sweep. The Judo guys I've played with will try to pull me forward on a line and then reap out the leg whereas in SC, you will kick the leg out and then reap it.

[Merryprankster]

The Judo guys I've played with tend to pull on the gi to make that space.

Hmm... The people I've met do both. I think that's interesting. May be a skill level issue. Might also just be a personal preference thing.

However, I don't see it as drastically different. Either is perfectly acceptable really, as long as the balance is broken, yeah?


Same thing with the sweep. The Judo guys I've played with will try to pull me forward on a line and then reap out the leg whereas in SC, you will kick the leg out and then reap it.

Yeah--ones an advancing foot sweep, the one Chang shows is a retreating version. Judoka do both, but you see the advancing one more often. You have to get pretty deep to do the retreating version Chang does!

I use a lot of foot sweep to reaping combos to get their legs spread out and weight on the heels.

[Merryprankster]

Have you found it really hard to pull off against people significantly heavier than you? This is in contrast to, say, seoi nage or ogoshi, throws that seem a bit more forgiving of weight difference.

Nope. In fact, I find Ogoshi and seio much harder against heavier people.

I throw ShaolinTiger00 with Uchi Mata fairly often. He gets me back with Yama Arashi and the occasional tai otoshi.

I have a hard time hitting wizzer grip uchi on TALLER people, but you can drive across for an ankle pick or Tai Otoshi to solve that.

[Water Dragon]

OK, then it's something I just haven't run across yet. I can buy that.

[Merryprankster]

To be fair WD probably 90% of the Judoka you meet will pull you forward onto your toes. That's the traditional Harai and that's how most people do it. A very few will pull you forward AND step deep like that.
So if we're making generalizations (which are useful when discussing styles) then yeah, you're more or less right. Judoka will usually pull.

Also, you really won't see that retreating version of the sweep very often.

That said, the mechanics are really nice in the Chang vid. Good stuff.

Where you are likely to see these other variations is with higher level judoka who have a heavy unorthodox (eastern european) influence. Lots of 'odd' looking throws.

[Shaolin-Do]

We have a BJJ class that comes in from 5-7 before us, so whenever I need to get some ground work in I can just go roll with them. :)
I prefer using strikes to set up entry for throws, and also I prefer to stay standing. However, if I do go to the ground, Im glad I some knowledge of bjj.

[Jook Lum]

Hello again!No luck in finding a picture of this reversal,so i will try to explain it.This is in no way the best or only way of reversing a figure four arm lock and it really depends on what your opponent is doing as to what you will do.

I am not sure if you are referring a figure four starting with a right or left hand on the inside or outside of the arm,this works for both but is changed slightly depending on which they are using.

For this one we will say their left hand is on the outside(to move your forearm up while their right hand pushes in and down to bend the elbow(arm) of your right forearm and their right hand is sliding in and over the top of your elbow or bicep to grap their left forearm(wrist) to lock your arm.You go along with the movement when your opponent is putting pressure on your forearm and elbow to bend the arm and bring your elbow in to your centerline and your left foot steps at a 45 degree angle (towards your opponents left side.While stepping your body is also turning so your centerline is facing your opponent and also simultaneously your right hand is turning at the wrist to grab hold of your opponents left wrist.Continue from wrist grab by moving in closer to opponent while twisting their wrist to turn their elbow towards yourself.

Slide your left hand or arm against or across opponents elbow (or a palm strike,away from yourself, to their elbow while your right hand is pulling ,while grabbing wrist,towards yourself)to perform a armbar .Left hand can also perform a palm roll to the triceps muscle for pain to aid the arm bar.

Hope this makes some sense,if not i tried to explain it anyway.