Bigger Muscle???

[dre_doggX]

Can anyone help, dont want to use the school gym, does anyone have anything, even a special push up excerise that can help build muscle tissue. and qi-gongs

[taijiquan_student]

I thought you practiced taiji? How will this help you? Or is it for the babes?:D

[Laughing Cow]

Tai Chi Sphere, Tai Chi Pipe and similar exercises should do the trick.

Also try to get a longer/heavier than average Pole and shake it 300 times.
Heavy Kwan Dao will also do.

Plenty of things you can do without leaving the realm of Tai Chi.

:D :D

Word in warning:
Bigger muscle does not neccessarily equal a stronger muscle.

[Repulsive Monkey]

You obviously don't want to get far in Taiji then if you want to build you muscle mass up?

As taijiquan_student suggests it must be for the babes c'os it sure aint for the Taiji.

Push hands is about sensitivity and refinement and had nothing to do with external development. Are you sure you study Taiji??????

[Former castleva]

When can strength/improvement in condition hurt?

"Bigger muscle does not neccessarily equal a stronger muscle."

Perhaps,but it sure is an indicator of a stronger muscle.

[Vapour]

Doing taijiquan is no excuse not to get fit. If you think being strong will help you, go for it by all mean.

Having said it, I should caution you. I have a friend who lift weight. He has weight bar in his house and lift weight I can't lift. Suprisingly, it turned out that he can't beat me in arm wrestling. Then there is this guy, who is about as muscluar as I am but has longer arm than me. In arm wrestling, shorter the arm, the better. I arm wrestled with him and he is solid. I have noticed that he is also incredibly flexible. I suspect that if you strengthen your muslce at the expense of flexibility, real strength will go down even you bulk up as inflexible muslce are very easy to get locked.

So be careful. After bulking up, you might find yourself weaker than before.

[Vash]

Try the bodyweight workouts first. Here's a link to a book by a complete psycho who talks to Farmer Burns . . .

http://www.mattfurey.com

I can't do those hideuous (sp) pushups since years of bench press w/o posterior work on my shoulders, back led to stupid shoulder problems. But, most of the stuff is cool.

Search for "Pushup Program," "weight training routines," or PM Ford Prefect and say HELP!

Be sure to ask your sifu if 1) weight training would adversly affect your Taiji training, 2) if there are any ways to reduce/elliminate what adverse effects you might experience in your practice due to muscular development.

Would post a routine, but not today.

Keep it real safe, too.

[Ray Pina]

"When can strength/improvement in condition hurt?"

When you're training an internal art. No matter how much you lift, you will not gain a foot in hight, 6 inches in reach, and probbaly not 60 lbs ... in other words, God has put a cap on your "ability".
Also, what is called "self defense"? You don't need self defense against a little girl or boy. But you will need it against THE BIGGER GUY who attacks you. Then you need technique! Weight training reinforces AGAINST! That is 100% against taiji principles. You're better off doing Hung Gar.

As far as conditioning: how hard do you have to work for it? How long can you keep it (two weeks after you stop if you're lucky)? And how old are you? If you're passed 23 it's all going down hill already. If it's martial skill you're looking for, you're betting on a losing horse with bad odds.

[Vash]

EF . . .

How does weight training reinforce poor technique? Yes, improper ratio of training between technical ability, moving iron can cause loss of technique, strength in technique, but proper exercise serves only to improve neuromuscular function, health, and a 1% increase in finding a date for friday and saturday evening.

[bamboo_ leaf]

i see nothing wrong with lifting or not lifting. The question is can you do 3 things;

1. can you really song “relax” with out any residue tension in the body "hard spots"

2. can you after training your body to use isolated muscle to move objects return to using inner momentum starting from the feet transmitted though the arms.

3. can you maintain your sensitive and keep the idea of non-resistance in your actions.

If you can really do these things then I see nothing wrong with lifting.

of couse the ladys are inportant 2, ;)

[Former castleva]

"and a 1% increase in finding a date for friday and saturday evening."

Ha,ha.Excellent. :D
Hard science?

"Weight training reinforces AGAINST! "

I do not claim to have much knowledge of tai chi but I´m not accepting this.Weight training says none of that,whether you are "for","against""yield" etc. is a separate matter."Cross-training",hear?

"When you're training an internal art. No matter how much you lift, you will not gain a foot in hight, 6 inches in reach, and probbaly not 60 lbs ... "

Yay.Never was it said that you will start growing in height.60 lbs is a possibility but that is up to you.

"Also, what is called "self defense"? You don't need self defense against a little girl or boy. But you will need it against THE BIGGER GUY who attacks you. "

True! Additionally,chances are that you are less likely to attract undesired attention,if you have some flesh to put on yourself.I´m not saying that you should count on it of course.

"If you're passed 23 it's all going down hill already. "

What? Elaborate.

"As far as conditioning: how hard do you have to work for it? How long can you keep it (two weeks after you stop if you're lucky)? "

Up to you and your preferances.

[Liokault]

I thought you practiced taiji? How will this help you? Or is it for the babes?


No he has read a book on tai chi....its kind of differant to having attended a class.

[neigung]

Making your body stronger won't harm your taiji. Good taiji has nothing to do with muscle mass or body size. Doing bad taiji will give you bad taiji.
The human body reaches muscular maturity at around 32 years of age. 23 years isn't even fully mature yet.

[jun_erh]

sounds like a bunch of superstitious nonsense to me. I refuse to beleive alchohol, sex, other pleasurable things are any detriment to ones fighting ability. It's just a myth propagated by teachers to turn there stufdents into obediant hare krishnas

[Ray Pina]

Go ahead and lift. You asked, I gave my opinion. I personally have seen two martial artist lose their skill from lifting, but now they are addicted to the practice. Worst of all, the lifting has affected their mind. Where they used to be open, they are now close minded. Everything comes down to brute strenght. But even though I'm smaller then both of them, I can collapse them both quite easily yet they can not collapse me. They are relying on their muscles, I'm relying on something else.

But again, lift, lift, lift.

As for AGIANST. Lay on your back and bench 250 lbs ... please tell me how this is not against? You are fighting the weight! And when you cross hands and feel resistance, you will have trained to fight against it, give away your intention, and the better trained player will change and get you ... but then your girlfriend who likes your muscles can at least ice your eye for you. So, maybe in the end you do know something.;)

PS
Maybe you have more muscles mass at 32 then 23, but I don't need to read a health book to know that you don't have bearly the same bounce in your legs, flexibility and stamina that you do at 23 ... how many TKD guys you see at 32 flying through the air ... they're out of it already. Forget WuShu! They're done by 28.

A perfect example to me is Gracie. When he fist came out he beat tons of guys, and he was much smaller than them. He didn't need weight training, he had technique. If you are practicing Taiji and feel you need to add weights, you are doing it because something major is missing. Weight training is against taiji principles completely, and I would even go so far as to say jogging does too.

[looking_up]

Training taiji does not mean that you can't become strong, but I think if you get too caught up in strength your taiji will suffer. I constantly need to remind myself that by practicing in a relaxed manner I get more gains from the practice. Practice right, practice with quiet intensity for a good amount of time, and you'll ache all over your body. Then do taiji to make the aches go away....ha ha

[Repulsive Monkey]

Nice one!! Once again your comments show the ineptitude of mentally retarded flea.

[jun_erh]

r monkey- everything you know is wrong

[jun_erh]

quick hide your muscle! (http://www.nytaichi.com/video.htm)

think for yourself

[Former castleva]

"As for AGIANST. Lay on your back and bench 250 lbs ... please tell me how this is not against? You are fighting the weight! And when you cross hands and feel resistance, you will have trained to fight against it, give away your intention, and the better trained player will change and get you ... "

Gosh.Bench pressing is an exercise on it´s own.To train it,does not mean that you will apply it to MA too.What evidence are you basing your conclusion on?

" Worst of all, the lifting has affected their mind. Where they used to be open, they are now close minded. "

I hope you are not seriously saying that you believe that this is what lifting does to you INO.That would need some major support.

"I personally have seen two martial artist lose their skill from lifting, but now they are addicted to the practice. "

OK.I´ve also seen people benefit from lifting.What does that mean? Not much,except that lifting has proven benefits.
Once you collect a huge group of practicing MA together for an objective study and prove that their skills (once defined) are hurt by lifting,then you might have some support for a conclusion (it would still stand the chance of being wrong though).

"Weight training is against taiji principles completely, and I would even go so far as to say jogging does too."

Whoa.Why? Where in Tai Chi,is that said?

"A perfect example to me is Gracie. When he fist came out he beat tons of guys, and he was much smaller than them. He didn't need weight training, he had technique. "

Again,nobody has been saying that weightlifting is to take the place of your art.It is for supplement (unless of course,it is your primary hobby).You are not supposed to do weightlifting in the ring. ;)

[Ray Pina]

Castle I hear ya, and believe me, not trying to change anyone's mind here ... just putting in my two cents. I hope everyone keeps lifting and training to kick harder and higher and all that ... I'll keep training mechanics and a refinement of my technique, just different aproaches, though I used to train that way. I played college football for a season and used to go to town on the makiware when studying Isshin-Ryu. My training is different now.

As for lifting, here is where we differ. My martial art is not something I turn on, and say, OK, now I will shield and use lifting power to drive under this attack, it just comes out on its own.

If you spend three days a week fighting weight, what happens when you feel weight being applied to your body? How do you react?

Maybe you can seperate the two ... good for you! I'm no even a taiji guy, but I live my art 24/7. How can you train against, then participate in against, training your muscle memory in against, over and over. You don't think this affects you as an internalist?

Again, if you did Hung Gar and weighed 160lbs I'd say you better lift ... if not, good luck.

And if I've seen two people shoot themselves in the foot do I need to see more to know I don't want to do the same. These were guys I used to not be able to beat. Now I beat them easily. What happened? With all their lifting I can push them easily and they can't push me ... where's the power?

Are you pushing with your arms, biceps or even chest? Or are you pushing with something else? All the bench press in the world, they won't equal the power of the thigh and a$$ of a 200lbs guy. I've been taugh to always call my big brother when it comes time to fight, not have the little guy do the job.

Again, this is just a difference in outlook though. I want to be able to fight the big guy, and when I age another 10, 15, 20 years, I want to fight the young guy. Should I invest in speed or power than? Or should I spend hours a week investing in both? And what happens when I get older? What happens when I slow down.

How can you be faster than the fast kid, more powerful than the big guy? This is what everyone is looking for. Should I lift and bounce the rubber ball, or should move as one and as little as possible?

[jun_erh]

for me, I am not strong naturally. very flexible and I run 4-5 miles a couple times a week, but I've been lifting twice a week for half a year and can bench press maybe 80 pounds. It's hard for the hard to meet the soft when there is no hard.

[bamboo_ leaf]

EF,

Is very right, the way taiji deals with force and the way weight training trains the body are very different.

the leaf used to lift as a younger man, even did a lot of body conditioning depending on the style I was working with.

It all works against the idea of taiji. Half of your training will be unlearning all the other things that you have taught your body.

For some they won’t be able to let it go and will never get it.

This is what I have found and saw in other people. If the question is can wt training help your taiji practice I don’t see how. Others may find something different.

[Golden Arms]

If you take your martial art seriously, consistantly, over a long period of time, you will most likely realize that basically what EF says is true. Martial art is not designed to be a thing you turn on, its designed to just be integrated into how you work, which is why you hear people talk about how 'much of your style can you use'. If you turn it on and off..never very much, if you use it always, even walking down the street or practice breathing and posture while sitting until its unconcious, you then at least have the potential to get 'it'. Because of this, yes, weightlifting can have a VERY detrimental effect on your training, unless you just want to hit hard, but dont train sensitivity, speed, flow, adaptability to as high of a degree. Former Castleva, no need for proof...if you did it yourself you would know. EF is just trying to give some pretty good tips to guys that have yet to go down the road he has. The reason most will not believe him is the same reason that most will never be able to fight decently using tai chi, aikido, kung fu styles in general....etc. They must have 100% faith and be completely immersed in that way of moving of their style, or it doesnt 'become your own'

[Laughing Cow]

Great responses from EF, BL & GA.

Once a student asked my Sifu if he should take up exercises to increase his cardio, answer was do the form 10-times nonstop, if he could do it without props he got enough cardio.

I think among the skills we modern man are starting to loose are the important ones of:

1.) Asking the right questions
2.) Listening to our superiors
3.) Observation
4.) Making decisions without outside influence
5.) Judging the self

If I remember weight training(western style) is still very new new in China and not that widespread.

So we should ask ourselves how did MA-Masters build strength and similar without using weights back in those days.

The next question will need to be are the traditional or the modern method BEST for what I am doing.

After that only can you make a decision.

Just some ramblings.

[jun_erh]

I completely disagree, but let me ask you anti weightlifting guys a question. Which is worse having alot of extra muscle or alot of extra fat? Because it terms of health the answer is obvious. But I gather health is not really a concern of yours

[Laughing Cow]

Jun_erh.

Let me ask you a question what is more important for you having good MA skill or a good-looking body?

IME, most IMA guys tend to carry very little excess fat, exceptions do exist.
But BMI and if a six-pack is showing or not are not identifiers if a person is fit or strong.

I would go as far as saying that a low BMI is atleast as unhealthy as one that is too high.

Weights are not the ONLY method to reduce excess fat and gain health.

FWIW, and I am repeating myself here again IMA have their own methods of weight & strength training.

[Vash]

Perhaps if you went a bit more indepth into specific, physical reasons why non-internal training is bad for the martial artist, you're argument would gain some credence with those outside the IMA circle (or line, if someone happens to be Xingyi ;) )

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vash
Perhaps if you went a bit more indepth into specific, physical reasons why non-internal training is bad for the martial artist, you're argument would gain some credence with those outside the IMA circle (or line, if someone happens to be Xingyi ;) )

The reasons were given above in posts above by people way more skilled in IMA than me.
Reread the thread and also note whose posts I agreed with.

IMA tend to train the body to move in a certain way using certain "qualities", training that runs counter to those will naturally have an impact on the quality of your movements.

IMA does have weight and strength training designed to further the skill of the IMAist, there is no need to supplement with non-IMA methods that CAN result in reduced IMA skill.

If you have ever pushed with a 70 or 80 IMA or seen them handling a heavy weapon effortlessly than you would know that the skill does not come from muscles and pure strength alone.

Seeya.

[jun_erh]

I just think of this because of Robert Smiths big fat tai chi teacher (s) in Chinese Boxing: masters and methods.

I wonder about people if a tai chi teacher who tells his students not to weight lift or run has is commiting a criminal act when the poor kid gets his ass kicked by a 6 year old girl.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by jun_erh
I just think of this because of Robert Smiths big fat tai chi teacher (s) in Chinese Boxing: masters and methods.


Who would that be??
I don't judge MA by their girdle size, but by their skill in MA.



I wonder about people if a tai chi teacher who tells his students not to weight lift or run has is commiting a criminal act when the poor kid gets his ass kicked by a 6 year old girl.

Maybe it is a crime if he does not develop/nurture DECENT MA skills in them.

[jun_erh]

golden arms- your avatar seems to contradict your statement

[Laughing Cow]

Here is an exempt from

THE TREATISE ON T'AI CHI CH'UAN
Attributed to Wang Tsung-yueh [Wang Zongyue] (18th Century)



The opponent does not know me;
I alone know him.

To become a peerless boxer results from this.

There are many boxing arts.

Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don't go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques.

From the sentence "A force of four ounces deflects a thousand pounds"
we know that the technique is not accomplished with strength.

The spectacle of an old person defeating a group of young people,
how can it be due to swiftness?

Seeya.

[Former castleva]

"There are many boxing arts.

Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don't go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques."

I wonder if this is just elitism in a tuxedo.I can be wrong of course.

"IMA does have weight and strength training designed to further the skill of the IMAist, there is no need to supplement with non-IMA methods that CAN result in reduced IMA skill."

And nobody has ably demonstrated why you cannot do that.

"
Former Castleva, no need for proof...if you did it yourself you would know. "

Let´s assume I did.Now what if I did,and DID fine?
Not very convincing IMHO.

"If I remember weight training(western style) is still very new new in China and not that widespread. "

That´s irrelevant (again,IMHO).Bodybuilding has become fairly popular in China I hear.

"The next question will need to be are the traditional or the modern method BEST for what I am doing."

A good question to ask!

"So we should ask ourselves how did MA-Masters build strength and similar without using weights back in those days"

Should you also ask whether you need to follow their footsteps in the most strict of manners? Considering how much has improved since-.

"If you have ever pushed with a 70 or 80 IMA or seen them handling a heavy weapon effortlessly than you would know that the skill does not come from muscles and pure strength alone.
"
AND

"Because of this, yes, weightlifting can have a VERY detrimental effect on your training, unless you just want to hit hard, but dont train sensitivity, speed, flow, adaptability to as high of a degree. "

It might be good enough to see a person,regardless of their status&age,to handle a heavy weapon effortlessly...but that´s another question.
None of us have been saying that "the skill comes from muscles and pure strength alone" (for example).
That smells like false dilemma/black&white fallacy.
There are more choises than "for or against us".

[Vash]

Ah, non-IMA training can bog down the IMArtist. Gotcha.

For my experience, those who I know in the MA who lift (not a lot, actually) don't rely on strength. Our sensei, who lifts constantly, and lays brick for a living, has done so for the past 20 someodd years, constantly tells everyone to finesse techniques. You can't win a fight against a good fighter with power. You gotta have the technique.

Rambling.

Strength training improves muscular function, including speed and (if the techniques are practiced like they should be) fine motor skills. If technique falters during weight training, two reasons: Decrease in technical practice, or overdevelopment of acting muscles in relation to the antagonists.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Should you also ask whether you need to follow their footsteps in the most strict of manners? Considering how much has improved since-.

Has it really improved or do we live under the false perception that things have improved? ;)

When did NON-IMA people gain insight into IMA skill and their development, i don't see any how any outsider to any system/style can improve on it.
The changes have to come from within, not from a 3rd outside party.

Maybe you as a non-IMA person & others here should tell us IMA guys how we can improve on our art & skills.

Honestly looking forward to those improvements and proofs that your way is better in developing IMA skills.

Seeya.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vash
Strength training improves muscular function, including speed and (if the techniques are practiced like they should be) fine motor skills. If technique falters during weight training, two reasons: Decrease in technical practice, or overdevelopment of acting muscles in relation to the antagonists.

IMO, and some might disagree.

Your unarmed skills will not be complete and refined till you have done some weapon training.

Seeya.

[Former castleva]

"Has it really improved or do we live under the false perception that things have improved? "

He,he.I´m not a MA historian either,what I was hinting at had more to do with,say,exercise science (for example) than IMA.

"When did NON-IMA people gain insight into IMA skill and their development, i don't see any how any outsider to any system/style can improve on it.
The changes have to come from within, not from a 3rd outside party."

Well,3rd parties are allowed to express ideas,are not we?
I agree that change would ultimately come from within,probably.
As for NON-IMA gaining insight,I believe that´s possible.

"Maybe you as a non-IMA person & others here should tell us IMA guys how we can improve on our art & skills."

Or maybe not.But as a non-IMA person,my message is to look beyond the dogmas (if there really are any).

"Honestly looking forward to those improvements and proofs that your way is better in developing IMA skills.
"

Now it sounds like as if...Well,I have not made any statements like that (my ways,being better),so I won´t be giving you that proof.I give you props for thinking that way (asking for such etc.).

[Vash]

Actually, my ways are far superior to all other methods. EVER.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vash
Actually, my ways are far superior to all other methods. EVER.

Which one is that:

Curl up into a fetal ball behind a heap of smelly brown stuff and hope nobody notices you?? :D
j/k

Acutally I have noticed that Dre-doggx has started similar threads on a variety of MA boards. ;)

Interesting replies on those threads.

Seey.a

[Vash]

Actually, I prefer the method of kicking 'em in the cajones till they turn blue in the face, and said cajones evacuate through said victims ears.

Works every time. Someone help me out, is it Rhambala?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Lift if that’s what you want to do.
If your goal is to learn how to manage force and intention lifting won't help and will actually decrees the body’s sensitivities to incoming force.

To generate force, or jin as in (fa-jin) you must be extremely relaxed (song) again weight training will not help in this either. Absolutely no tension is allowed in the body.

Most people cannot generate any type of real relaxed jin, because they have trained their bodies to function in another way and they don't really belive that song will help them get it. They want to feel the force, actuly what they feel is the tension in their bodies, very diffrernt feeling then being relaxed and sunk.

If your goal is to get good at taiji, practice more and follow someone that you believe knows the way until you find it in your self. If you want to lift, go for it. give it about six months or so and see if it works for you.

ya never know until you try it.

[Vash]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Lift if that’s what you want to do.
If your goal is to learn how to manage force and intention lifting won't help and will actually decrees the body’s sensitivities to incoming force.

How?


To generate force, or jin as in (fa-jin) you must be extremely relaxed (song) again weight training will not help in this either.

Why?


Most people cannot generate any type of real relaxed jin, because they have trained their bodies to function in another way and they don't really belive that song will help them get it. They want to feel the force, actuly what they feel is the tension in their bodies, very diffrernt feeling then being relaxed and sunk.

And you know this how?

[bamboo_ leaf]

I should have paraphrased, with in my experience,
Take it as advice.

As to how I know this by experience of course.
No one sucks each must find there own way, again just some advice.

take it or leave it dosn't matter much does it ?

[Nexus]

I've found this thread very interesting and I think each person has taken the stance that defends their own "personal interest". The lifters advocate lifting is positive, the purist tai chi players advocate that lifting is detrimental to their purist tai chi. I have danced in both realms, as a lifter and a purist all natural tai chi player.

Having a few years under my belt and speaking from experience, I can say that weight lifting in moderation doesn't significantly hinder tai chi skills. It can also increase your capacity to competently do other tasks in life that require muscle/labor/etc. So can proper body mechanics, which are taught in good tai chi classes.

A balance that does not inhibit the flexibility, grace and flow of tai chi, but complements the strength and physique of the body and muscles is fine. If you want to look bigger for cosmetic reasons such as "the ladies", thats fine also. We do live in a society where image is important, and looking defined and well built can be advantageous in business, relationships, etc, since we have come to accept that "perspective is reality".

But to stay on track, weight lifting is ok in moderation. In excess, it will collapse the meridians (energy channels) of the body and cause chi (energy/life force) to stagnate all over the place. For those of you who want to work out, balance it by doing tai chi, but dont for a second get stuck in the thinking that you cant do quality tai chi if you weight lift, since that is simple rubbish. Proper lifting can complement your MA and your life in general.


Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
EF,

Is very right, the way taiji deals with force and the way weight training trains the body are very different.

the leaf used to lift as a younger man, even did a lot of body conditioning depending on the style I was working with.

It all works against the idea of taiji. Half of your training will be unlearning all the other things that you have taught your body.

For some they won’t be able to let it go and will never get it.

This is what I have found and saw in other people. If the question is can wt training help your taiji practice I don’t see how. Others may find something different.

[Ray Pina]

1) I'd rather have extra muscle than extra fat, of course ... but not at the expense of being tight and building a habit to resist weight.

2) That quote is not ellitist. It's stating something vert important, that God has put a cap on your ability (strenght, speed) so how can you compete simply using them. Are you the strongest, fastest? Once you admit this, then you have to find a better way.

3) I still do two-man power drills, which is like my weight lifting but more natural. You collapse me but I pick you up. But there is technique in there and in actual usage I do not go against ... think of Hsing-I drill fist to pick up, or Ba Gua Peach Palm to put you down when you try to put me down.

Also, using the long and heavy Hsing-I pole ... I believe Taiji does the same. You can use your arms and get a hell of an arm workout. Or you can throw it out using your legs and whole body, just steadying it at its apex with your arms for s econd so it doesn't crash to the floor and then pull it back in, absorbing it and then throwing it out again with your full body.

4) I have much more to learn. Saw once again how pathetically little of my masters art I actually have.

[Former castleva]

"But to stay on track, weight lifting is ok in moderation. In excess, it will collapse the meridians (energy channels) of the body and cause chi (energy/life force) to stagnate all over the place. "

Anything can be bad in excess,and you could point out real&testable consequences,outside of fantasy.

[Golden Arms]

Jun_Erh How does my avatar conflict with my views. Lam Sai Wing is doing an excercise that is commonly done in DYNAMIC TENSION in the middle of one of the Hung Gar sets. His nickname was 'fatty/porky wing' but I doubt you would have wanted to mess with him. Regardless Nexus said something I believe to be true. The key to the rule is this: Everything in moderation. Its good to lift, and its good to relax..the end goal of tai chi is NOT to become a squishy pudding with bones that can mysteriously 'fa jing', but relaxation if very important. I lift weights heavy at least one time a week, but I do NOT do it 4-6 times a week, as I have seen my own MA suffer terribly from doing so. As one of my sihings is fond of saying, you must always have the dot of the yin in the yang, and the yang in the yin...balance is key. If you are naturally a very loose person, and yin, then lift more and do more rigourous stuff..if you are naturally tight, then the relaxation will help. So to paraphrase..both are important..as they are different paths up the same mountain. One who takes the hard path later needs to spend years learning to relax, and one that takes the soft path must later take years to learn how to handle someone trying to over power them with brute force, and must keep their body healthy.

[Vash]

OMG!!! I AGREE!!!

See, Laughing Cow, I told you my ways were superior to all others. EVER. :p

[jun_erh]

golden arms - it looked like the guy in the avatar had big muscles but it's kinda small pic. my mistake

I shouldn't talk because I lift like twice a week and it's pretty light. My point is more along the lines of like someone hear was talking about the balance of yin and yang. So what is the point of having too much yin? aren't you still unbalanced? It's like when someone dies of a Heroin overdose, there like some great artist and someone dies of cocaine overdose they're seen as some yuppie l.a. dude. But aren't they both dead? Is one more dead than the other??

and robert smith was taught by a number of fatsos whose chinese names I won't butcher by trying to write them here. They all smoked, except one this bizarre 18 buddha boxing guy, and who knows what else.

[Hobbs the vagus]

How do you guys reconcile with the idea that though the ancient masters did not lift weights in the Western world sense per se, but these guys were mostly laborers? These guys did hard physical work that had to have made them strong. (in the muscular sense) I know personally, I sit most of my day.

I have been a life long weight lifter, but when I started Taijiquan I gave it up, buying into the "softness". I hated it. Anything I did physical around the house would cause my arms or back to hurt for days later. In the past I have done what would be considered body building and also what would be called power lifting.

Currently, what I do now is in line with my thoughts about ancient master being physical laborers. I do things like dead lifts and squats and presses over my head holding a 45lb plate. No barbell. All exercises holding just the plate.

Hobbs

[Laughing Cow]

EF.

TJQ does train the Pole in a similar method, we call it shaking the Pole and it should be 300 times in a session I am told. For extra benefit we also use a longer than normal pole to increase the workout.

We also got the Kwan Dao set and a few other things like the Tai Ji Sphere and similar that will give you a solid workout.

Will it make you big like Arnold, I doubt it but you will get a healthy build.

Hobbs.

Not all the old masters were laborers, many of them were scholars or similar too.

Yes, they were phsycially more active, but it was not isolated muscle strength but more utilising the whole body which is in line with what I am taught.

One of our ex-students worked physically hard in a nursery and his skill improved very quickly as he applied the TJQ principles to his work and thus got an extra workout.

So, yes, there is something to be said for physical labour, which IMHO, is different from the average weights program in the Gym.

But what prevents you from applying the principles in your own work, sit a lot on the PC = relax shoulders, use the sitting zhang zhuang pose when possible, when picking things up try not to use muscle but rather intent, etc.

MA is how you apply it to your everyday life and if this is done correctly than you will reap the rewards.

As was stated above MA is not something you do 20hours a week or 3 times a week at the kwoon.
Or something that you switch on and off like a light-bulb.

Cheers.

[Hobbs the vagus]

I disagree with the idea that these martial artist were scholars. My reading has led me to believe that they were village people who needed to protect themselves and their villages, i.e. the Chen's. People who worked as caravan guards and hired "thugs". If these guys were "scholars", who paid them/feed them to sit around and "think" about taijiquan?

I very much see that my generalizations of "these people" are broad and frankly should carry no weight without specifics. It is only my humble opinion.


Hobbs

[Laughing Cow]

Hobbs.

You might be correct in regards to some of the Chen villagers, pls, also read ALL the TJQ histories and the stories of the masters. You might get a surprise, as to who they were and who taught them.

Yang Lu Chan was NO laborer for starters, neither was Sun Lu Tang.
Chen Wang Ting was a military/goverment official who hid from the law because he killed a person in a fight and/or because he faced prosecution. Would need to get exact story from my Sifu.

As for the scholars NOBODY paid them to think about TJQ, they earned a LIVING using their scholarly studies and not by using/teaching TJQ or other IMA.

Sorry, to burst your bubbles, but the guys back than had not that dissimilar lifes and living problems than we do now. (Rent, taxes, food & utility bills, Jobs, Families, etc.)

Many would like to see the Master of old training 24/7 and getting everything for free, fighting sparring matches daily, killing people and not being prosecuted by the law, but it didn't happen.

I also doubt that they Chen Village faced regular raids or similar problems in it's existence.

They worked and trained afterhours just the same as we do.

Cheers.

[Hobbs the vagus]

Laughing Cow,

"Sorry, to burst your bubbles, but the guys back than had not that dissimilar lifes and living problems than we do now. (Rent, taxes, food & utility bills, Jobs, Families, etc.)"

Don't be sorry, I don't live with bubbles....
That is exactly my point. These people worked with their bodies to pay rent, taxes etc....Please don't tell me they sat at their desks.

"Many would like to see the Master of old training 24/7 and getting everything for free, fighting sparring matches daily, killing people and not being prosecuted by the law, but it didn't happen."

I don't know what you are responding to. I agree, but don't know what your point is.


"I also doubt that they Chen Village faced regular raids or similar problems in it's existence"

Why do you doubt this? Let me ask you this, what was the motivation of the martial artist in the 1700s and 1800s?

It was to protect. Protect village, self and family. It also allowed jobs as agents of protection for the wealthy. The Chens were famous caravan guards.

Hobbs

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Hobbs the vagus

That is exactly my point. These people worked with their bodies to pay rent, taxes etc....Please don't tell me they sat at their desks.


So what does a goverment official do?? What does a calligrapher do??
Till the fields??

Like I said read the histories.



Why do you doubt this? Let me ask you this, what was the motivation of the martial artist in the 1700s and 1800s?


Earn a living, have a profession.
Many became fighters because they either had no home or not sufficient education to do anything else.
Read the Sun Lu Tang history.



It was to protect. Protect village, self and family. It also allowed jobs as agents of protection for the wealthy. The Chens were famous caravan guards.


How many villagers are needed to be trained to protect the village?
100% including elderly, women and children.
Some of the Villagers were caravan guards and fighers for hire, i.e. people that spend most of their time AWAY from the village and the farms.

The Chen village was famous for their MA throughout the region and people travelled to study there.
Not what I call a soft target for attack or raids. ;)

Personally, I would estimate that only a small number of the villagers were trained fighters, the rest were farmers, admin staff, pot-makers, etc who at the most had some form of basic training.

Even back than the good MA charged high fees for their services/teachings and it was common that only people with money (scholars, officials, etc) could afford to train with them.
Yes, at times promising students were taken if they showed skill or came recommendet from another Master.

MA never was a poor mans game.

Seeya.

[Ray Pina]

Actually, if you're picking up heavy stuff, say trees in a nursury, using your legs and entire body, you're using Taiji principles already ... this is different than curling the weight to build muscles. One uses the entire body, the other isolates a muscle group and trains it to fight the weight. Same thing with using a pick, ect. Farmers and laborors alreday know about mechanics.

Every see a carpenter use a hammer? Then see some dimwhit who just bought his first hammer at Home Depot? Completely different. The carpenter uses the weight of the hammer to do the job.

Like wise, in Taiji you should borrow the other's weight and then give it back to them, or drop it on the floor.

When I played football I saw a guy pop a blood vessle in his head deadlifting ... I learned right then, and that was at least 10 years ago. When I saw him straining so hard all I could think was, "Put the weight down a$$hole, it's obviously too heavy."

[Merryprankster]

There is no substantive difference between lifting trees off the ground or deadlifting. As far as the guy popping a vessel lifting too much weight, that's his problem, not something inherent in the deadlift.

Proper powerlifts (minus the bench press) and O-lifting use the entire body. In fact, a deadlift works nearly 85% of the muscles in your body. O-lifts pretty much hit them all. Not only that, but a key component of O-lifting is to borrow the energy of the weight you are lifting to properly execute the lift.

[Ray Pina]

You're right that there is really no difference between picking up a tree properly and deadlifting.

If a tree is too heavy a farmer or worker at a nursey will ask someone to help them with it -- or the farmer may cut it up and use the wood for something else. A powerlifter will max out on it and add a 10 pound plate to each side next week.

Hey, I powerlifted the four years of HS and one year of college ball I played. I never got off on it but it was something I had to do. My bench sucked, but my squat was good. I don't miss it. I don't miss lion dancing either. Both build power ... but I think I have enough natural power. Now I want technical power, which is different.

This is my aim. I pray others chase the other horse ... only makes the formula more valuable later. 20 years from now we can see who was wiser. In fact, most of the guys I know who stuck with college ball, juicd up ... worthless now: Knees blown, back hurts, balding, hurting all the time. I'm glad I got out when I did.

[Merryprankster]

Hey, I powerlifted the four years of HS and one year of college ball I played. I never got off on it but it was something I had to do. My bench sucked, but my squat was good. I don't miss it. I don't miss lion dancing either. Both build power ... but I think I have enough natural power. Now I want technical power, which is different.

No argument here. I was a track and field thrower type in high school and college. I don't miss the iron. I was much stronger but I don't know how much it would really help me. I'm at a point in my development where, in a limited training time environment, I get more out of technical practice than lifting.


This is my aim. I pray others chase the other horse ... only makes the formula more valuable later. 20 years from now we can see who was wiser. In fact, most of the guys I know who stuck with college ball, juicd up ... worthless now: Knees blown, back hurts, balding, hurting all the time. I'm glad I got out when I did.

More an issue of excess than something inherent in the lifting itself, wouldn't you think?

[bamboo_ leaf]

I don’t think anyone is saying lifting in itself is bad, I think then the question would be weather it will help your taiji skills or not. For each of us depending on what where looking for the answer may be a little different.

Try this:

Place both hands on someone’s chest
Have them grab your forearms
Push them out

Ask them if they feel any tension in your forearms, hands ect. or do they just feel the momentum from your body being transfer into their body.

The idea of how force is generated in taiji is very different, there are certain requirements that have to be met in order to really generate this type of force. If you can lift and still meet the requirements no problem. my experience may be a little different then others so I don’t advocate something that didn’t work for me. Maybe it might work for others.

People have brought up the training of weapons in taiji, and suggested that they are a type of weight training. On this I would disagree.

I would say the intent was to be able to train a certain type of way to generate power ill respective of any direct benefit to over all streanght.

Just some thoughts

[fa_jing]

the way you lift is important. Lifting like a bodybuilder won't help you much for fighting. That is, emphasis on isolation movements and training to failure, strip sets, training on your back, in a chair, in an artificial postion, and all that nonsense. Some weights work emphasizing whole - body movements, concentric movement to mostly build strength rather than mass, etc. is good. Ballistic lifting, speed lifting, Oly style lifting will give you good functional strength, stretch your shoulder girdle and hips. Grip work is important too, for MA. If strength training is done correctly and with function over form as a goal, it will only make you stronger and more flexible for MA. Now, different MA have different attribute goals. Also, time spent cross-training is not only time that could be spent on technique, but also may re-inforce a neural groove that is counter active to the particular MA being studied. So one's goals need to be considered. Personally I fight with a style that is very much reliant on strength, as well as speed, structure, tactics, etc. For me to do overhead lockout work with the weights, is a great way to ensure that my shoulder will be stable and transfer energy efficiently during the contact phase of a punch.

[Merryprankster]

Well, I don't think improving your attributes improves your skills per se. It improves YOU and therefore the instrument through which you express your skills.

I can do pretty well with a cheap set of pots and pans, bad knives and a limited spice rack. I can do WAY better, a lot faster, with better instruments.

[Vapour]

Hmmm, I can't believe there are more than 5 pages of thread for such an simple question. Sorry if I repeated the point which was said before but I can't bothere to read entire comment.

Weight lifting strength your individual muscle in *isolation*. Therefore, it should be used as *supplement* to your strength exercise. Main part of your exercise should always use entire range of your body.

Say if you are professional judo athlets who train 6 hours a day, it would be absolutely necessarily to do weight exercise. But that is because you have been using whole range of body in other segments of your exercise. On the other hand, puting weight lifting as *core* of your strength exercise would be moronic if you are a martial artsist, IMO.

And anyone who think weight lifting is against internal style, how do you explain all those Kung Fu masters who swung iron bar every morning.

[Merryprankster]

Vapour, that depends entirely on the lift. There are several "Total Body Lifts" that work almost all of your body at the same time.

Using that as the core of your strength training is actually pretty smart. In fact, they're called "Core" exercises.

They include:

Deadlift
Power Cleans
Hang Cleans
Clean and Jerk
Clean and Press
Snatch
Hang Snatch
Squats and variations on same
Push Press


There are others and variations on that theme as well.

[Ray Pina]

As far as masters of the past, they used to wipe their a$$ with leaves too, but I won't follow suit.

My reason for being against weight lifting as a core part of MA training is not so much because it hurts you as that it's a waste of time. HOW MUCH BIGGER WILL YOU GET? And in the end, it's only called SELF DEFENSE when the other guy is bigger than you anyway ... or armed. So your power doesn't matter.

Last weekend a 6'6", 385!lbs man came to visit our school. My master is 145lbs and 62 years old. Do you think that man came to learn his deadlift?

[Merryprankster]

And in the end, it's only called SELF DEFENSE when the other guy is bigger than you anyway

Not true, but I get your point.

E-fist, it's not about getting bigger. It's about improving your attributes. Now there may not be a need to do so, or your time may be better spent doing other things. But it's not a waste of time. You can lift to get stronger without getting physically larger. There are ways to lift that promote strength over size. I have (in the past) successfully become MUCH stronger without gaining much weight.

The question is really one of diminishing returns. At some point, a person will have to sacrifice one for the other because of time constraints. I prefer at this point to work on my techniques. There may come a time when my learning curve on that is so steep that extra time yields few gains and I would be better off improving the instrument through which I express my training.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think this is a genuinely useful conversation for exploring. That seems to be the point, I think.

[Ray Pina]

Absolutely.

It's just that I've made my choice already, and now having changed to Hsing-I, Ba Gua and E-chuan, there's so much to learn technically ... and I keep seeing time and time again how larger, stronger men who don't move efficiently and count on their strenght go down.

On the other hand, my technique was better than the last guy who beat me but I just couldn't damage him enough in the tournament setting. Not sure it would have been different on the street though either. I learned a lot from that encounter. I was a little too bull-headed, not wanting to seem like I was avoiding him (weighed in at over 250lbs) in the refs eyes. Next thing I know, 3rd round and kind of punch drunk. Started chippin away a little too late.

Came across a Bob Marley lyric the other day that I like:

"If you are a big tree. We are a small ax. Sharpened to cut you down. Waiting to cut you down ... .... These are the words of my master." -- Bob Marley.

[jun_erh]

pilates?

[dre_doggX]

I just wanted to appear stronger.

I LOVE SUNG, and FA-jing.

but since mentally Iam getting there, why not look bigger. even if I do tense I can always train back to softness.
by the way, I normally just practice Peng and Lu, and try to get prefect Sung. and find my center, which I think changes with every movenment. Its like listening to your bodies insides

[Merryprankster]

and I keep seeing time and time again how larger, stronger men who don't move efficiently and count on their strenght go down.

Don't know what to tell you other than they need to get better. It's really an issue of THEM.

I personally agree that your focus should be on doing things well. I personally don't have time to lift. If I did, I would.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Vapour, that depends entirely on the lift. There are several "Total Body Lifts" that work almost all of your body at the same time.

Using that as the core of your strength training is actually pretty smart. In fact, they're called "Core" exercises.

They include:

Deadlift
Power Cleans
Hang Cleans
Clean and Jerk
Clean and Press
Snatch
Hang Snatch
Squats and variations on same
Push Press


There are others and variations on that theme as well.

thanks. Most newb lifter start off with machine so I just wanted to give warnimg to initial poster.

[Vash]

Powerclean (and Press) is the SH!T! This should be required for ANYONE to do ANYTHING. EVER.

[jun_erh]

I don't see any difference between toe raises as performed in Ba Dua Jin (8 brocade) and toe raises performed with weights in the gym.

[Former castleva]

" I don't see any difference between toe raises as performed in Ba Dua Jin (8 brocade) and toe raises performed with weights in the gym. "

There is not much.Well,toe raise is rather uncomfortable if taken to extreme.