"MMA" Vs. "Traditional", "Traditional" Vs. "MMA" [Archive]

Water Dragon

09-17-2003, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Alright... MP had it right on another thread. What the hell are we doing differently? I train traiditional kung fu, but more than one style... so... traditional MMAist?
Anyhow, how is what we are doing so different? (Apart from breathing excersises, stylistic differences like power generation)
Do those of you arguing not realize that neither style is "better"? The person who trains harder is better. The hours one stylist spends in the gym training hard is not spent any better or worse than the hours someone from another style puts in the gym.
Some of the training methods may differ, but a good majority of them have a similar training used by another style. Were all on different paths to the same destination.
How many of you think that what we do is really that different, and why?
No stupid ass flame posts... please...

Your SC training is starting to show thru in your posts :D

Shaolin-Do

09-17-2003, 08:05 AM

Maybe kirk beat some sense into me or something. :)
But really, theres a lot of people on here who seem to think that time spent training is spent in vain due to what style you practice... when in fact if you study style X which is "vastly superior" to style Y, but only train 2 hours a day, but style Y guy trains 5... chances are style Y dudes gonna whoop your ass.
:eek:

Merryprankster

09-17-2003, 08:19 AM

stylistic differences like power generation

This is a fallacy. There are only so many ways to move. You are doing nothing that fundamentally different from a boxer when you punch, I strongly suspect.

Shaolin-Do

09-17-2003, 08:36 AM

Probably not, but Im speaking more on the lines of bagua as opposed to Tae Kwan Do.
Differences may be subtle, but they are there.
But thats not what this thread is about :)
Ive learned a couple of ways to throw the same punch... Neither one is right or wrong... I do what works for me.

KC Elbows

09-17-2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster

This is a fallacy. There are only so many ways to move. You are doing nothing that fundamentally different from a boxer when you punch, I strongly suspect.

I think the fallacy isn't a complete one. I agree, punching in different styles probably has far more similarities than differences, so it's probably more correct to say "style x uses a power generation method on move X that style Y does not focus on so much, because they focus more on move Y".

Like bjj elbows. They're sort of, well, there to fill space. Whereas muay thai and some kung fu styles (and bjj practitoners who want good elbow attacks) tighten the power up. So really, it's not that in close kung fu styles and muay thai and other styles have a power generation in their elbows that is ENTIRELY unique, it's that bjj guys don't go to bjj to learn elbows.

In addition, I think some of the internal styles have a different training methodology to teach power generation(chen, hsing yi, etc). The power may not be different, but the method for gaining the power is defined to the slightest motion to ensure the power is there. I'm not sure it's exactly a different power than other styles use, but the training is definitely done a different way.

KC Elbows

09-17-2003, 08:41 AM

As for bagua vs. tae kwon do, didn't many korean teachers adopt the sine wave for power in their forms? It's my understanding that earlier versions, and some who still practice this way, had the power/speed/tension progressively increasing only in the last inch of the attack, not at all unlike how power is produced in many kung fu styles among others- loose, then suddenly heavy.

Merryprankster

09-17-2003, 08:49 AM

I'm not sure it's exactly a different power than other styles use, but the training is definitely done a different way.

Precisely my point. The way the body moves for proper power generation really can't be that different. A good hard boxing punch is going to have the same sort of power generation as a good hard karate or TKD punch or Kung Fu punch (when comparing apples to apples).

The issue is one of training focus. "TKD punches" are usually considered sub par because they don't really do it. Boxing kicks probably look pretty dumb :D

I guess my point is a properly thrown punch is going to look similar (more than similar) regardless of what you train

KC Elbows

09-17-2003, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
A good hard boxing punch is going to have the same sort of power generation as a good hard karate or TKD punch or Kung Fu punch (when comparing apples to apples).

Thus proving that boxing came from kung fu.

Anyway, yes, I think that's most of the difference. I think some styles have a few funky moves they apply power to that others just do another way, but for the most part, yes, it's all mugging techniques.

truewrestler

09-17-2003, 08:57 AM

there are some minor differences :p

http://www.karatebushido.com/pictures/photos/shaolin.jpg

Dark Knight

09-17-2003, 09:03 AM

That would also depend on what your final goal is. If we are talking about being on the Olympic TKD team, then style differences matter, a Boxer will not make it. Conversly if you are talking about beating Tyson in Boxing....

But in the picture of self defense, street combat its not the style, but how you train. I met a TKD Black Belt last month who trained for tournaments, he has no power in any of his strikes. He fought a TKD guy from a school that spars heavy contact, he was punched out of the air (pretty funny to watch, its good to laugh at your friends pain) He trains with us now and has improvedjust from a change in training method.

Experience is the best teacher. Take any style and let that person fight for a couple months. He will become a good fighter.

Dont get me wrong, you dont want to throw a beginner out there with no experience and start beating him.

Build a solid delivery system, then properly work them into sparing.

brothernumber9

09-17-2003, 09:16 AM

If person X throws a punch, they are in a bow stance, the back foot is pointed 90 degrees outward from the direction of the punch, the punch is all arm, no twisting of hips and hardly any of the torso, back leg completely locked straight from beginning to end. elbow flares out wide between start and end of punch. person X means to throw the punch this way.

person Y throws a punch , in a bow stance the back foot is pointed straight forward, heel on the ground, back leg starts slightly bent then pushes from ground to straighten, hips turn/torque from slight sideways to square forward, torso follows suit. elbow stays in close to body during punch (at least as far as before a straight arm pulls it away some). both latts tense at end of punch. person Y means to throw the punch this way.

X and Y fairly different stylistic differences in power generation on same technique.

Ford Prefect

09-17-2003, 09:41 AM

Merry P,

I've actually been taught a way to generate power in KF that I was never taught in my years spent boxing competitively and the time I spent training MMA. It took quite some time to be refined into being useful, but I was impressed with those that had.

Shaolin-do,

While on the surface time spent training would seem to be a deciding indicator, I don't think it is. I don't think it's really a stylistic debate, but rather one about different training methods. If a guy spends 2 hours a day practicing solo drills and forms and even spars once or twice a week, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts he gets whipped by the guy that spends an hour a day practicing dynamic partner drills and sparring. (all else being equal)

SevenStar

09-17-2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
The hours one stylist spends in the gym training hard is not spent any better or worse than the hours someone from another style puts in the gym.

not necessarily true...

Some of the training methods may differ, but a good majority of them have a similar training used by another style. Were all on different paths to the same destination.
How many of you think that what we do is really that different, and why?
No stupid ass flame posts... please...

the main difference is time. judge for yourself...how long do you think it would take for you to become effective with SC vs the time it would take with SD?

Judge Pen

09-17-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Ford Prefect

While on the surface time spent training would seem to be a deciding indicator, I don't think it is. I don't think it's really a stylistic debate, but rather one about different training methods. If a guy spends 2 hours a day practicing solo drills and forms and even spars once or twice a week, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts he gets whipped by the guy that spends an hour a day practicing dynamic partner drills and sparring. (all else being equal)

I guess what you are saying is that it comes down to the efficiency of the training as much or more than the time spent training. Are MMA more efficient in their training than TMA?

Merryprankster

09-17-2003, 11:14 AM

I've actually been taught a way to generate power in KF that I was never taught in my years spent boxing competitively and the time I spent training MMA. It took quite some time to be refined into being useful, but I was impressed with those that had.

Describe it.

norther practitioner

09-17-2003, 11:49 AM

Are MMA more efficient in their training than TMA?

Usually, and that is coming from a tcma...

Shaolin-Do

09-17-2003, 12:02 PM

"Are MMA more efficient in their training than TMA?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Usually, and that is coming from a tcma..."

Not necessarily... they just train longer usually.

May I rephrase my initial post for those of you who are sometimes think too much... Time spent in the gym training hard is time spent in the gym training hard. TCMA hits heavy bags... MMA hits heavy bags... In SC we do shin kicks to MT pads... Some MMA does too Im sure... I lift weights... MMA lift weights... you catch my drift?

yenhoi

09-17-2003, 03:02 PM

Some drills or training methods work multiple attibutes. Some incorporate all aspects of reality, just not at reality's intensity, some drills or training methods, on the other hand, only train one or only a very limted few attributes. You dont even have to look accross styles to see this:

Hitting the heavy bag for 1 round
Hitting the speed bag for 1 round
Hitting (trying to) an opponent for 1 round

THe person who spends more time with drill #3 will be better at drill #3 type situtations, but the guy who spent all his time on drill#1 will be able to hit hard, but will not be accustomed to hitting hard against something moving.

Some schools or teachers or styles or whatnot for some reason do not have drills like drill #3.

I think there are methods of power generation that end up being more advanced or more involved or more complex then others, but I doubt any serious indvidual combatative study would come up with uniquly different types or what have you then any other individual combatative studies would. In other words, I doubt the east by default has anything of value the west doesnt, also.

:eek:

rogue

09-17-2003, 06:40 PM

How many of you think that what we do is really that different, and why? I think under competent and experienced teachers there isn't much difference at all. From my experience which is slight a the arts of Aikido, jujutsu, grappling, BJJ, boxing, muay thai, karate, escrima, wing chun, tai chi all use...

angles of attack, going for position, use the waist to generate more power, will want to take their opponents base while keeping theirs, use triangle foot work, will try get at your back, will try to get you moving backwards, intercept an attack, let an attack go by and counter.

Now this is my experience yours may be different.

Ford Prefect

09-18-2003, 08:03 AM

Merry P,

It's actually really hard to describe in words. It's basically a vertical whipping of the spine to generate power rather than hip torque. I learned it in the short time I practiced Ba Gua (which is primarily palm strikes), and it feels kind of akward trying to apply it to striking with fists. When first practicing it, the movements are really grossly exaggerated and not useful at all in sparring, but the goal is to eventually refine it down to a small motion. I was rather impressed with some of the senior students who had done this.

Don't get me wrong. I spent only a little time at this school. The vast majority of my time training was spent at boxing gyms and bjj with time at wrestling clubs, judo clubs, muay thai gyms, and jkd schools to fill in the gaps. I left that kung fu school because they had all these crazy ideas about combat and most of the people couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I did retain some things that could be deemed useful though, and that power generation method is definately one of them. Footwork was the other. Everything else was pretty ghey. heh.

MasterKiller

09-18-2003, 09:17 AM

Time spent in the gym training hard is time spent in the gym training hard. TCMA hits heavy bags... MMA hits heavy bags... In SC we do shin kicks to MT pads... Some MMA does too Im sure... I lift weights... MMA lift weights... you catch my drift? Well, you can spend 80 hours a week trying to chi blast chickens from 10 yards away, but that don't make it work in the real world.

My point being that there are right ways to do things and wrong ways to do things. It's a fallacy to assume that just because you practice something a lot, it automatically justifies the technique. If I practice punching people with the last 2 knuckles on my hand, chances are, no matter how much I practice that technique or how much intensity I train with, those knuckles will break or jam when I hit someone for real, not to mention the damage it could cause my wrist from being improperly aligned.

I think under competent and experienced teachers there isn't much difference at all.Word.

"Are MMA more efficient in their training than TMA?I would say their fighting training is more efficient. I spend a lot of time working weapons, and two-man sets, etc. that a MMA simply applies to sparring or conditioning. More sparring = Better fighter, no matter what background you come from.

rogue

09-18-2003, 11:13 AM

I'd say that competitive fighters (I hate the term MMA) are more focused in their training then those of us in it for other reasons. They know they are going to have to use their skills against someone who also wants to win.

Merryprankster

09-18-2003, 11:44 AM

It's actually really hard to describe in words. It's basically a vertical whipping of the spine to generate power rather than hip torque.

Sounds like a wrestling snap down type motion or shuck.

Just a slightly different application?

Ford Prefect

09-18-2003, 12:05 PM

MP,

Not even close. It's pretty impossible to describe just writing it down without me there to actually show you what I'm doing. We called it "dragon back" and I know some other styles used it. Maybe one of these guys will have a demo of it they know online.

I know it sounds fruity. This has just always stuck with me as it really is a pretty un-intuitive but effective way of developing power. The time needed to spent refining is also pretty rediculous. That's why I never bothered. I figured I'd still be just as effective using hip torque which is a hell of a lot more natural and useful right away.

Merryprankster

09-18-2003, 02:20 PM

Huh. Interesting.

However, other arts use it--which is sort of my point--not too unique

I'll grant that boxing doesn't use it--but it doesn't practice taking people down either. :D

Did you find that when comparing "apples to apples" that your boxing style power matched up with the KF stuff that was being taught?

Obviously Baji has this dragon back thing, but was power generation substantially different than your boxing training, again, when comparing apples to apples?

BAI HE

09-18-2003, 04:12 PM

Ford must of met Henry.

BAI HE

09-18-2003, 04:55 PM

Lkfmdc has managed to take his CMA training into MMA arena's (mainly San Shou) and enjoyed some success. He also enjoys ****ing all over traditional arts.

Here's a post from back when he was a bit more benevolent toward TMA:

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/attnlkfmdc.html

BAI HE

09-18-2003, 06:40 PM

TTT

Wow, watch someone say something that validates TCMA and watch the thread sink!

This is one hell of a Gung-Fu board.

omarthefish

09-18-2003, 10:07 PM

Just cuz there's overlap doesn't make them the same. There are definately kinds of power generation and even techniques in certain styles of fighting that aren't found in other. The big difference with the pro's, IMHO, is that they mostly probably couldn't give a flying *censored* about what style, traditional or modern. I'd think the proper attitude is to just fill in the gaps the best way they know how. If some guy realizes he needs better ground work, what difference does it make where it comes from? You just have to take personal responibility for the results. That means you listen to what even a TKD guy has to say and THEN decide if it's valuable or not. Who knows? Maybe this TKD blackbelt actually wrestled competitively in college? Maybe the Judo guy isn't so good after all. The styles, the labels on the training should only serve as indicators of the chance of the teacher being able to teach certain things. You need to really think things through NOT with the goal of finding all the tools within your chosen style but rather the goal simply of finding all tehe tools.

You don't want to let loyalty issues prevent you from learning how to fight. If you find the right guy, you won't need to make and ethical descision to be loyale to your teacher. You'll be loyale because either you just can't find anything else out there better than you can with your teacher OR your teacher encuorages you to get out there and learn from other people.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yenhoi,

-"Hitting the heavy bag for 1 round
-Hitting the speed bag for 1 round
-Hitting (trying to) an opponent for 1 round"

If you only worked on number 3 you might never learn how to hit hard enough to make those hits count.

If you never train number 2 you may find your timing never improves.

If you only do number 3, you will look like those backyard fighters who still look like school kids fighting in the playground and you never get to develope and refine techniques.

Professional musicians do not spend 90% of their time just jamming with friends. Most spend much more time practing scales and doing finger drills or just playing real slow to develop a pretty sound.

yenhoi

09-18-2003, 10:22 PM

Agreed.

Each trains specific attributes more than others. If you have a weak attribute, then you have a weak attribute.

;)

Asia

09-19-2003, 01:19 AM

Can a TMA beat MMA? Inquiring minds want to know.:D

Crimson Phoenix

09-19-2003, 04:39 AM

Merry, as a boxer who came to CMA yet still box, I can assure you that there are ways to generate power in CMA that you won't find in boxing.
Don't get me wrong: even though my personnal training is almost 100% CMA, I still love savate and boxing. I still box (admitedly, less than when I was a savate player) against various boxing opponents (even nak muays). Heck there are still some savate techs I rely on when heat builds up on my azz in the streets. I just want to point out that I'm not intending to act all elitist in a way (CMA vs boxing) or the other (boxing vs CMA).
You'll ask for examples I guess, well indeed Ford hit the nail with his example of spine waving. No matter how hard you look, it's very unlikely that you'll find such an action in western boxing, boxers just don't punch that way. They used their spine the twisting way, which is very fine (many CMA styles do too), but it's completely different from the vertical waves or compressions used in some CMA styles. Also the use of the scapula can be quite different.

Okie, I do not once again intend any elitism but it is obvious, if you have met internal experts, that even when boxers say "the power comes from the leg", it is not really the case. The power comes from the hip, and the leg facilitates, or adds to the momentum for the talented boxers. But when internal "masters" say the power comes from the feet, it really does. It just feels and look different. There's a difference between "coordinating" (western boxing coordinate leg and waist when punching) and "unifying" (legs and waist are one, not just acting simultaneously). I bet that's why internal arts are so uptight about the sacrum and dan tian and all...
I know you'll surely disagree and come up with very good arguments to prove me wrong. It is just my personal observations and convictions, not a truth I try to enforce...
However as a mixed boxer/CMA who has equal respect for both arts it really is my personal feeling that some CMA masters have things that you will never find in any western MA trained person. Why?? I don't know, maybe it's the methods. Such experts have generally been trained very young, with methods totally in opposition to what we perceive of "strenght and power" (invest in loss, relaxaton vs muscular build up etc.). Most claim that there are things you can find in youth that, if you grow an adult without ever nourishing these things by the proper methods, you'll never find them again...it could make sense biologically...

Let me ask you, Merry, and this is a very honest question, not a disguised scorn: have you ever met some internal masters unanimously respected in the CMA scene and felt their power, or the way they move? In person, hand to hand?? If not, how can you be sure there is no difference? That would be a form of elitism as well, no?
Too bad Feng Zhi Qiang retired, here's a man who could show that internal training really has something you cannot find in western disciplines...
Closer to us, ask Asia here about a skinny guy who goes by "Wandering Taoist" and what happened when he charged him at full force during cyberkwoon's webmaster's wedding. When you have seen that, you cannot doubt there are things that you would never have expected if your only scope was western MA.
Elitism is a plague in CMA, I totally agree, yet it is also rampant in western disciplines. We have to get rid of elitism both ways. And that starts by giving some disciplines the benefit of the doubt instead of plainly drilling that "there's nothing in these practices that boxers couldn't do".
I still don't understand it all, but there's are things that really make you go hmmmmmm.

I do not believe in CMA myths and legends, and I don't see why it should be a problem saying "some CMA styles have methods of power generation that are radically different from western boxing". I might even point out that even INSIDE western boxing the methods are different. A savate player will never kick the way nak muay do.

Ford Prefect

09-19-2003, 06:28 AM

Merry P,

Comparing "apples to apples" I'd have to say that I think basic boxing power generation was as useful or more useful 99% of the time. The only thing that really impressed me with the power generation I learned in Ba Gua was the short range power possible. The guys that were good at it could have their hands on you, and still make it feel like they had a full range of motion when they issued this power. I never saw or felt somebody do it to me without setting up the whole scenario first, so I dunno how useful it would be in heat, but it always seemed like it'd be really useful in the clinch.

I came to Ba Gua after I had boxed competively all through college (before I started MMA stuff) and was in pretty good condition. I was always athletic and in good condition throughout my life, and the only reason why I fell into boxing in college instead of a team sport I played in high school was because it fit into my schedule better. I threw myself into kung fu and practiced the power generation, chi kung, stances, footwork for literally hours a day morning and night and gave up all my "western" conditioning stuff. I had never been as weak as when I finally gave Ba Gua up. Take that to mean whatever you will.

SevenStar

09-19-2003, 10:37 PM

interesting...

Christopher M

09-20-2003, 12:02 PM

Ford - Why did you give up the western stuff? Were you told that PBN's bagua methods would give you all the muscular, CV, etc work you needed?

Merryprankster

09-20-2003, 12:50 PM

"there's nothing in these practices that boxers couldn't do".

Well, there isn't, if they trained it! :D

Seriously, what I was asking was more what Ford hit on--when comparing apples to apples, were the methods of power generations more similar or different? Ford seems to think they were more similar. In other words, they were training the same things but perhaps using different explanations or possibly training methods.

Now, what you're talking about is an "apples to oranges" comparison IMO. Which is perfectly fine as long as we identify that up front. Wrestling and boxing, for instance, are totally different. You can't really "compare" methods. Wrestling has methods of power generation, for instance, that boxing doesn't, and vice versa. But that's expected. Similarly, I would expect that CMA has methods of power generation not found in boxing. That said, when comparing say, uppercut style punches I'm willing to bet that the mechanics of that type of punch are more similar than they are different, across arts.

Does that make any sense at all?

As far as the elitism goes, I don't know what to tell you. The way I see it, it's pretty simple. "We do things nobody else can and moreover, it's BETTER than what you do." Non-traditional arts invest in openess, not secrecy.

Too bad Feng Zhi Qiang retired, here's a man who could show that internal training really has something you cannot find in western disciplines...

Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe you just haven't met the right western master and happened to be doing "fake" boxing ;)

Christopher M

09-20-2003, 01:01 PM

Why do we need FZQ for this? Sounds like Ford found something distinctive with a bit of exposure; surely anyone else could do the same?

Crimson Phoenix

09-21-2003, 02:10 AM

MP, my main take is that the internal methods are quite different from western methods. They even are opposite to what we perceive as "strong" or "powerful". In that regard they are right when IMA stylists say "they do things nobody else do". After that, well it's up to them to show if it's better or not. Problem is that too few can even begin to show they hold their own. Also, in the same "internal training curriculum" there often are specific practices that you have to do while you're young, everyday, all the time. It's like a cultivation of a thing that you can do only in your youth and that you will not be able to find again when you get pas your teens. Not that I trained these, but this is what comes out from many experts.
In line of these two assertions, it can be possible that some IMA give way to a power generation that western arts never even tried to imagine. This is my personal opinion, and it's all just hypothesis to keep an open mind, not to pass on some mystic lore of CMA.

I don't feel it's that much "apple to apple" or "apple to orange". We're really talking about one single issue of power generation here...

"Non-traditional arts invest in openness"...well yeah, I wish...do scorn and critics take part in "openness"? It seems that if you don't get in the ring, you're a p(uss)...
Or if you don't spar, which I would understand more. I know this could start a flamming hot thread but I have this to say: even sparring is NOT a good representation of a real fight. But forget what I said, I really don't have the energy to expose my theories heheheheh
Really elitism go both way (I have been to boxing gyms as well heh). CMA elitism is clearly "in your face" and mystic. Yet "western arts" elitism is more rampant and shrouded. But it's here, trust me.

Yes, indeed, if boxers trained IMA the right way they could do it. But they wouldn't be boxers anymore ;-)

As for the boxing masters, well, we can see tens of them on TV everyday, we can see how they move, we can see how they kick ass. So we can compare their ways and methods to the dogmas of internal styles. they are plainly different. That's all we can say. That's precisely WHY we need peeps like FZQ. Because he is a living repository that you can cultivate and generate a kind power you'd never feel in your life even if you dedicated it to "western arts", trained by methods that are in complete opposition with, I state it once again, what we are used to when we aim at getting stronger or more powerful.
We need peeps like FZQ because he is the personification of the dogmas of internal arts, and that he can demonstrate and express them. Without peeps like him, IMA dogmas, methods and strategies would be just lore in books, legends and mysticism. He, at least, is the personification that IMA methods seem to work, and seem to work along the lines of what you can find in these old books, because FZQ can make you feel, something that pages and pages of talk and the best logical arguments on earth will never achieve.
Traditional arts (not just even internal ones) indeed badly need VERY good exponents of their methods, there are too few and their mouthes are often too big. This is why we need people like FZQ in the discussion (Christopher, I do not really understand your problem with my post, judging by your tone, or maybe it's my misunderstanding, I really gave you the itch).

Really Merry, ask Asia about the guy I mentionned. Ask him, so we can all see what he has to say about it, ask him if that kind of power is found and trained in western disciplines. He felt it first hand, he is a strong guy, a talented martial artist, respected by everyone here. Surely his words will have more punch than mine :D

Merryprankster

09-21-2003, 07:07 AM

Actually, I don't think it's a "if you don't get in the ring your a *****." That's just an ******* problem.

It's when (other *******s) say "A REAL martial artist could kick his ass" problem. Too many people just wandering around talking about how sportfighters are brutes without technique or training and a REAL martial artist would kick their ass. Ok. Prove it. That's where the disdain and scorn come in. Don't make claims you don't intend to prove.

I've got no problem with different people doing different things, but for every low-brow juiced up MMAer with a billion tats out there telling us that TMA's don't work, there's a pasty-faced ex-D&D addict wearing goofy pajamas doing bad chinese dancing who thinks he's got the secrets of the fighting universe up his silk sleeve.

In fact, there are MORE of those guys running around because 1) bad TMA has had more time to proliferate, 2) the MMA comps keep you a bit more honest, 3) a basic tenet of MMA, even poorly trained is getting hit. Bad TMA practice doesn't have that tenet, and attracts more people, consequently.

Western 'elitism' is certainly not shrouded. Just prove it. That's not particularly shrouded. If you make a claim, back it up. I don't see how that's shrouded. And absolutely critics take a part in that openess - so does scorn. That's what openess is all about--exposing yourself to the critique, interest, and if it happens, ridicule of others. I don't understand the problem.

But forget what I said, I really don't have the energy to expose my theories heheheheh

Then I don't have the energy to discuss it any more. No knock on you, I just can't be bothered either.

Really Merry, ask Asia about the guy I mentionned. Ask him, so we can all see what he has to say about it, ask him if that kind of power is found and trained in western disciplines. He felt it first hand, he is a strong guy, a talented martial artist, respected by everyone here. Surely his words will have more punch than mine

To tell me what? That somebody was very, very good--superb even? I've been on the receiving end of very, very good from somebody much, much smaller than me and I had several years of experience at the time. It looked miraculous to me too!

It's clear you've got your view of things. If it works for you, run with it.

Crimson Phoenix

09-21-2003, 07:58 AM

no, to tell you that a guy without any kind of muscles whatsoever, probably weighting less than 170lbs, stopped his running charge dead in its tracks without a single step back, among other niceties...you see? You didn't even ask for Asia's view on that affair and yet you already discard it with a rhetorical twist. You don't even give the benefit of the doubt to the whole issue. Isn't this shrouded elitism (mild one, I agree, but still a form of it, to say that "well, that's no biggie, I've been there and done that"?).

We both agree that there is tremendous elitism and there's just too much "my sifu (or even better, a dead sifu, so we'll never know) could kick his azz but since he's not interested in fighting he won't" in CMA. More often than not, CMArtists are just speaking wwwaaaayyyyy out of their azz, and most of them walk the street convinced they can end a fight with their single secret blow or pull out that "catch his punch in mid air and do your joint lock" fantasy. Hell I am myself too often forced to tame down some colleagues by telling them if they're so sure of their claims we can just get down to it and he'll show me how is magical qi stuff will fare against my low-level savate.

I'm sorry you take the discussion that way and seem to start labelling me as another fantasy-fed CMA just because I have personally witnessed things that defy any logic you usually come across western arts. These things are the kind of things that just make you go "what if?". Leaving room for the unlikely is precisely what openness is about for me. It's not because something isn't proved right that it is proved wrong as a consequence. Elitism is rampant for me in the sense that people will disprove any IMA claim violently, but will never try to go and seek someone who could show them there might be some substance behind it. See, you still haven't answered my question: have you met and touched hands with an IMA expert unanimously recognized in the community? If the answer is no, how can you be so sure there's nothing behind IMA dogmas? Why not give the benefit of the doubt?? Would it be so hard to understand that the same way you'll find very few pearls while screening thousands of oysters in the sea, chances are there'll be very few incredible practicionners in a sea of IMA? Still you won't say that pearls do not exist, so why discard straight away some phenomemons that could be exclusive to IMA as folk legends??

And before you all jump on me for these last words (since I see many here very good to take one sentence out of context and make it say much more than it was meant to), no, I'm not speaking about qi blasts and supernatural miracles. I'm talking about potential resources of the human body that are very down to earth, but that people most of the time never see in their lives because the whole way we live, move and train keeps them silent for ever. Is it so hard to give that idea the benefit of the doubt? For example, everybody seems to be comfortable with the fact that we usually use 40% of our brain...without legends and mysticism, there's still plenty room for amazing things with the human body, no? Of course, our western civilization is very good at saying "we have not proved it, hence it can't be".

Merryprankster

09-21-2003, 08:34 AM

I've not crossed paths with any IMA masters.

Have you crossed paths with any olympic caliber wrestlers? I've crossed paths with a couple olympic gold medalists. What they could do was nothing short of amazing. I've crossed paths with international Judoka and world-class BJJers as well. Everything they do, whether it's stand still when I attack or kick my ass just for ****s and giggles, seems pretty effortless to me.

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter how *I* perceive what they are doing, or even Asia because people who are THAT GOOD can do things that we can only be amazed by. One of the most well respected BJJ Black Belts, Roy Harris (FWIW, he has an extensive TMA background and agrees that SD and sparring/competition are totally different) remarked that Rickson Gracie felt like a "400 lbs mind reading anaconda."

When people are that good, you have to search for analogies that are fantastic to explain what they do. Is it something special about their training? The WAY they train? Or all that PLUS their own gift?

Also, if you will take note, I never said that TMA, including IMA didn't have things that are different. I discussed specifically apples to apples. That's it. Of course in an apples to oranges discussion you're going to get different things. Clearly the power generated to throw somebody is different than that used to punch them in the jaw.

I'm sorry you take the discussion that way and seem to start labelling me as another fantasy-fed CMA just because I have personally witnessed things that defy any logic you usually come across western arts.

I didn't. Why are you so defensive? You're assuming that I made an attack on IMA and what you believe. Is there something about discussing this stuff that's offensive?

See, you still haven't answered my question: have you met and touched hands with an IMA expert unanimously recognized in the community? If the answer is no, how can you be so sure there's nothing behind IMA dogmas? Why not give the benefit of the doubt??

I missed answering the initial question. Sorry. I DO give these things the benefit of the doubt. They may very well exist. However, I've never once seen/felt anything like it in a demonstration. However, I return to the flip question--have YOU ever played with top-level international caliber grapplers? Well then, how do YOU know that they AREN'T developing these very same things found in IMA? Basically you don't. It becomes a moot point. Further, it's a round-a-bout argument, because this always devolves into "Yeah, well, you didn't meet the right guy, etc." Ugh. It's fine. I assert things are more similar than different. You assert that things are far more differentiated. I also assert that it's unlikely that throughout the history of mankind the IMA cultivated these things whereas they were completely ignored by other civilizations. It's like pasta. Pasta was well known in the mediterannean AND china--or meditation. Several middle eastern sects of christianity, judaism and islam used meditation and inward looking. These aren't unique to the subcontinent or eastern asia--further, they used it for many of the same purposes. If we can do it, it's highly probable that somebody else also makes use of it, and discovered it independantly--making it non-unique.

My experience in several different physical activities leads me to believe this. A golf swing is fantastically similar to the hammer throw. Even more surprisingly, the javelin throw and the hammer throw are even MORE similar.

Secondly, all we can ever wind up saying is not necessarily that somebody's specific training methods create "x," but that their training, plus their own attributes lend "x" to that fighter. If I train the way Rocky Marciano trained will I develop his bonecrushing power?

If we give everything the benefit of the doubt, we get nowhere. I'm a skeptic, yes, but I think that's healthy. Otherwise, I'd be a credulous idiot.

Of course, our western civilization is very good at saying "we have not proved it, hence it can't be".

A common misconception about how this all works. What our western civilization is very good at is "Gosh, that's interesting. Prove it." Not having any evidence (or only anecdotal evidence) of something is very different from asserting it doesn't exist.

Like I said, I'll just be done with this discussion now. It always just winds up upsetting people.

Crimson Phoenix

09-21-2003, 10:07 AM

Sorry if I sounded offended or defensive or whatever. Internet sometimes lack conveying much of an emotionnal content (or lack thereof) behind the crude words on the monitor. That and the fact that english is not my mother language...(rather my stepmother's :D ).

FAIC, people can say anything about CMA or IMA or whatever, I won't raise an eyebrow...it's not like I make my dough of it, or get an interest everytime someone raves about qi...I do my thing and for the time being it has served me when I needed it. That's as far as it goes, and that's really all I need.

I'm puzzled though about your metaphor of pasta and meditation...do western boxers train like internalists do?? They don't...truth is, IMA training methods are mostly IMA-specific, and in opposition to what we dub external styles. Not that boxers couldn't adopt them. But do they? Almost never (and no, I don't consider mediation and IMA method). Hence there remains a gap between the methods, not because one is secret and unique, but because peeps just choose for the vast part to keep it segregated: some go for boxing and use boxing methods, some go for IMA and use IMA methods. It has nothing to do with a secret that was known to one and not the other.

I realy do believe we have a hard time believing people can eventually generate puzzling power by using methods that say "never use muscle power". It's so away from the conception of "force" engraved in our mind since we grew using our body to move around...But it seems it can work, and I experienced it first hand. That's all I'm saying.
As for playing with high level wrestlers, I'm sorry but all I found was national level wrestlers...I have no trouble whatsoever saying that it was rather them that played with me hehehehehe. But nothing puzzling, really. They raped me good, and reproductibly...I met some skinny guys who could keep my arms squeezed like I was in an iron jaw and I could see his muscles hanging loose on his own arms. The guy had no shoulders, no pecs, nothing. He was much lighter than me...I do not know how he did it, and all he trained was internal arts. I just couldn't budge an inch. When peeps fight and wrestle, you can see their muscles tense, sometimes real hard. Even boxers who have to remain relaxed, when you see a picture of them caught with the punch in mid-air, lots of their muscles are stimulated. He developped all this power without tensing a single millisecond. THAT is puzzling to me, really...

Admiteddly, I totally agree on the fact that it's most of the time hard to separate the benefits of a methods and the natural talent of an individual (especially when a particular individual trains a method particularly suited for him/her). All I have regarding this issue are questions, not answers. But at least questions keep my mind open...if I was so dead convinced of the mythical superiority of IMA, I obviously would have forgiven savate, and I didn't. But yet, some things make me go hhhmmmmm, that's all. I'd rather go hhhmmmmmmm than saying "it's like that and that's how it is". And it's a very different "hhhhhmmmmmmmm" than the ones I get for being raped by a talented wrestler or even boxer...Maybe it's just me.

As for the proof of existence, I wish it were indeed a common misconception, because unfortunately I witness it everywhere in the scientific area, the last place where it should be seen. Have you checked that article about the startle reflex abolished by meditation? People really thought the startle reflex to be impossible to abolish, yet now they saw it could be done. How can you say something is impossible unless it has been proved so? Well, our minds, and unfortunately science do it everyday. Too bad for us. That could be why some TMA methods and benefits happened to have faded into disdain then oblivion, who knows?

I understand you wouldn't want to bother replying, and that's fine. We obviously both have our conceptions and they differ on that point. Not that the earth will stop turning
:D