Evolution of SLT

[Phenix]

how should the next Evolution of SLT be?

[rubthebuddha]

what do you mean by evolution, and can you give a couple examples of how it has evolved in the past?

[S.Teebas]

First, whats wrong with it? As far as i can see, there's the posibility to train for many years in getting it more and more perfect. And the closer to prefect it becomes the more power we can generate.

Maybe you could add some iron body? (that is if the training doesnt require us to go in the opposite direction to help cultivate the SNT)

I think alot of people like WC becasue it allows you to keep soft hands anyway. ...but what about the bodys ability to take a solid hit? Does SNT/WC prepare us for this?
One key point is constant relaxation, so what happens when our relaxed stomach recieves a solid strike?

One flip side of this argument could be: Do we train to attack or to take hits?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

SNT is a framework on which to build. It is comparable to the Alphabet or base numbers. As long as the concepts are followed there is no limit to how the “letters” can be put into “words.” Many people are against the idea of making changes. Some due to the fear of losing something others because they do not understand the idea of adhering to a concept rather than form and become slaves to their interpretation of the art.

In our approach, Sifu has already made modifications to how the SNT is performed due to our experiences based on actual usage. The most remarkable difference is in the reversal of the Wu and Fook Saus in the first form. While many will disagree, we feel this change makes the application easier to grasp more quickly for the average student. In addition to this there are several other minor changes, which end each section with the fist, chambered and prepared to attack or defend if needed. Traditionally the arm was withdrawn and not necessarily in a position to counterattack without changing the shape.

Sifu has also added a shifting or turning SNT where the movements themselves remain the same but are now down with a shift/turn. The emphasis’s is to learn how to deal with and exert the proper energy of each technique while providing additional training on shifting/turning.

IMHO, Wing Chun needs to be approached with an open mind. While it is fine to respect tradition and how it was taught in the past, one must also realize that training methods as well as our understanding of body mechanics has grown over the last few years. Just as athletes today train differently than their counterparts did 50 or even 100 years ago, Martial Artists must also adapt/evolve or die. The hard part is in making changes relative to our needs today without violating the basic tenants of our art. Also to consider is do you train for the sake of art of application? Whether you like to admit it, your end desired result will have an affect one whether you believe in adapting or evolving or not. As you may have guessed my approach is to attack once we have engaged :D

Just some things to stir the pot a bit more, As I said, I know some will consider any changes to be sacrilege. But, as I tell my students, in the end as long as I can go home I do not care what others think. I also tell them I cheat!! And I do :p

Peace,

Dave

[old jong]

Hey Dave!
You know that if you filmed yourself doing SLT and then played it backward...The differences would not show at all!...






































Just kidding!...:D :D :D Nice to hear from you!...

[reneritchie]

(Adapted from le 'net...)

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy,
it deosn't mttaer in waht lniaege of wnig cuhn you do
or waht oredr the fomrs are in,
the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the conpecpts are
all tehre.

The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll laren it
wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not fcous on ervey
dteail by istlef, but the stysem as a wlohe. Fcuknig amzanig huh?

[rubthebuddha]

last time we played the tape of dave doing snt backward, we could barely hear some chanting in the background. "satan" was the only word we could make out.

[rubthebuddha]

rene = silly ass, and that's why we like him. :D

seriously, though, what's with the impression of you-know-who? ;)

[old jong]

:D

[yuanfen]

Hendrik asks:

how should the next Evolution of SLT be?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some tinkering here and there by knowledgeable folks ok- which excludes a heck of a lot of people.

But for conscious "evolution" one first has to know what
that slt is and why it needs changing if at all.

[fa_jing]

Rene: pretty cool, mister!!


I myself have modified SLT, now the last section has me practicing my quick draw, then I drop onto one knee and fire an imaginary bazooka. I feel that these changes are necessary so that Wing Chun can continue to grow and develop in the modern world.

[Sihing73]

Hello Everyone,

I expected my comments to illicit some feedback. I must admit surprise to learn that you could hear the chanting in the background, it is supposed to be subliminal and not noticeable. I will work on that immediately. However, the chanting is really a message to your subconscious to send me money, as I need it with my large family. ;)

I would agree that making change for the sake of change is never a good thing, seems like we’ve been down this road before :) Still, I challenge anyone to show me someone who does the SNT EXACTLY the same way as Yip Man or their own teacher. I also challenge anyone to show me someone who does the SNT the same now as when they first learned it. While there may be examples who fit this criteria I am willing to bet that they are few and certainly not the majority.

Wing Chun as a whole must evolve in order to address the needs of its practicianers today. Some have added a short stick form, others work with regular knives. There is a difference between the use and deployment of a folding knife and a fixed blade and there are slight adjustments to be made for the use of each. If Wing Chun was designed for combat then it must adapt and change to insure it is adequate for the type of combat which one may face. While some will argue that fighting methods have not changed all that much since the inception of Wing Chun, the fact is that the world has become a much smaller place making it more likely to encounter students of diverse arts. Does anyone really think that our Wing Chun ancestors ever faced a Capeiro (sp?) stylists?

IMHO, by making the SNT more applicable for combat one is evolving in line with the original ideas of the arts founders. Besides, we can’t even agree whether the forms where an integral part of the system from the start and it is known that Yip Many made modifications to the forms over the years. The dummy form is a great example of this, some have 140 moves, some 118 and some 108. While I mean no disrespect to Yip Mans memory, what makes it okay for him to make a change but not another Sifu today? Bottom line, if it works then it is relevant; if it does not then it is unnecessary. I would rather provide a method, which gives my students functionality in a quicker time than one, which requires more time but ends up in the same neighborhood.

If you are happy with you version of the SNT and it meets your needs then there may be no need to change it. However, if you find that you can shorten the process to understanding by making modifications and they are in line with the basic theories then be bold enough to check it out and see if it is a worthwhile effort. Just insure you have a strong foundation upon which to build.

Are we having fun yet?????

Peace,

Dave

BTW: I respect everyone’s right to their own opinion and approach and would not say that anyone else is wrong, I just believe that I have the same right to my own opinion as well :D

[Phenix]

Great posts!
Keep going.

[S.Teebas]

Bottom line, if it works then it is relevant; if it does not then it is unnecessary.

Hi Dave,

I disagree with this comment. I mean somthing could work for a 150kg roid monster...but not work for a 50kg woman. So which is more relevent?

What works for the smaller woman can work for the 150kg guy (if applied wiht the same mechanics), but not the other way around..... so which one is WC?

[yuanfen]

Notes on Daves post (snipped for brevity):

Wing Chun as a whole must evolve in order to address the needs of its practicianers today.

((Whatever that means....))

If Wing Chun was designed for combat then it must adapt and change to insure it is adequate for the type of combat which one may face.

((Sure- but wing chun has built in adjustments and the combatants excpect for height/weight increases still have two legs, two hands, one heart, head etc, one spinal column))

While some will argue that fighting methods have not changed all that much since the inception of Wing Chun, the fact is that the world has become a much smaller place making it more likely to encounter students of diverse arts.

((So? you still protect your center and attack theirs))

Does anyone really think that our Wing Chun ancestors ever faced a Capeiro (sp?) stylists?

((Some would be defeated because they would be too busy laughing!!))

founders. Besides, we can’t even agree whether the forms where an integral part of the system from the start and it is known that Yip Many made modifications to the forms over the years.

((A democratic bias. Ok for politics- what does it have to do with knowledge. Wing chun by las vegas judges, writers and audience polling??))

The dummy form is a great example of this, some have 140 moves, some 118 and some 108.

((So what-organizational schemes- not conceptual differeneces))

While I mean no disrespect to Yip Mans memory, what makes it okay for him to make a change but not another Sifu today?

((Because he was exceptional. Without him- chances are wing chun would be known- if at all-as a minor art))

Bottom line, if it works then it is relevant; if it does not then it is unnecessary.

((Works? Meaning-?? Points to the future- the great american mish mash arts-mma, jkd))

I would rather provide a method, which gives my students functionality in a quicker time than one, which requires more time but ends up in the same neighborhood.

((Dont know your neighborhood. Gunfu has spread fast and the wu sao or the reverse wu sau cabt stop a bullet or a good knife motion))

If you are happy with you version of the SNT and it meets your needs then there may be no need to change it.

((Thanks for your blessing sihing <vbg :-JOKING>
I will stick with the Kohinoor diamond- if only the Brit. Queen would return it,))))

However, if you find that you can shorten the process to understanding by making modifications and they are in line with the basic theories then be bold enough to check it out and see if it is a worthwhile effort.

Just insure you have a strong foundation upon which to build.

((Justa check point- right??))

Are we having fun yet?????

((Always. Mirth is healthy!!)) Joy Chaudhuri

[Sihing73]

Hello S. Teebas,

I believe that the technique should be able to be applied by anyone including the smaller person. In no way did I mean to imply that something which a larger person does, which is done without structure/technique etc is relevant. When I say if it works then I mean when applied across the board allowing both smaller and larger people to use it. If I had to lean towards one side of the coin I would lean more towards the smaller person being able to make it work.

To take this a step further, while I would advocate being in good physical shape, I believe that the approach must be applicable by the average person. Saying this it should be simple direct and efficient allowing it to be applied by those who have neither the time nor the inclination to train as hard as they should. Of course, one should train properly but I think it is unrealistic to teach an art for combat or self defense to people which requires a lot of ongoing effort as many of these types will not follow up with it. Instead, by stressing the concept of the techinque it is more likely that they will grasp something and come away with something useful. Another thing which I have found to work well is to be as brutal as possible. This can have a tremendous effect on the attackers buddies as they see you do something rather harsh to your attacker.

Using myself as an example: I know that my approach to Wing Chun works well for me, and I stress for me. I have had back surgery to remove a ruptured disc, I have severed a tendon in my left hand, I have numerous broken bones to include several fingers and I am hardly in the best shape of my life. Yet, my approach works well and allows me to apply the art to several people much larger than myself. I strive to transmit this ability to those who are stuck training with the likes of me. Of course being able to take some punishment also helps as well, my wife is more than happy to assist my training in this area :D

Hope that helps clarify my position and what I mean by if it works then it is relevant ;)

Peace,

Dave

[yylee]

yeah, I am still doing SNT2000 with service pack 4. All updates are critical and must reboot the whole form to continue. My DanTien is still spinning at 700MHz so no plans to upgrade to SNT-XP (extra potential), which requires a minimum of 1GHz :D

[CFT]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
rene = silly ass, and that's why we like him. :D

seriously, though, what's with the impression of you-know-who? ;) He's not doing an impression. There is some news going around the 'Net about some academic research on how people interpret words in English. As long as the first and last letters are correct, the ordering of the letters in between doesn't significantly affect the recognition of the word.

See slashdot.org for links: http://science.slashdot.org/science/03/09/15/2227256.shtml?tid=133&tid=134&tid=186

Don't know where Rene came across the story though ....

[rubthebuddha]

CFT -- i stand corrected. but i still think rene's silly -- probably from the whole mr. t thing. ;)

[reneritchie]

Dave,

You already know my comments. Much like calligraphy, once you master 1 or 2 established forms, you can come up with your own form. If its done for good reason, change is what drives nature. As you know, we have both the withdrawing Wu Sao in SLT and the extending Wu Sao in Chum Kiu. Since your sifu feels (with good reason) that applying the withdrawing Wu Sao is more difficult, he switched the one in SLT (which is learned first) for the extending one. My only problem is that it doesn't sound like he put the withdrawing one back in Chum Kiu, which means you're -1, and IMHO, the withdrawing Wu Sao is *very* important in WCK's closing game. But who cares what anyone else, myself included thinks? All that matters is whether you think your sifu's changes will produce better results, and then, whether they actually do.

In my lineage, my tai sijo, sijo, and sigung all made small changes to SLT, and luckily my lineage kept track of them and I learned what was changes and why and was given a choice on what I wanted to do. My sifu didn't (consciously--we all know memory is never 100%) change anything because he felt he lacked the experience of his ancestors, and in a kind of melencholy way, is sad he can't give back to the art as they did.

Bottom line, if you think you should change WCK, you probably shouldn't. If changes come as a result of decades of teaching and application experience, then its great.

RTB,

It's just an adaption of a joke going around the 'net. You know, like the one where you swing your right foot clockwise then try to trace the number '6' in the air with your right hand...

David,

Oh no! Didn't you hear? SLT2003 will *not* be compatible with Chum Kiu services, or future Biu Jee exchange! I think many will switch to Lynux San Sik!

[yylee]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I think many will switch to Lynux San Sik!

dangerous openware Lynux San Sik! lots of experimental code, unproven technologies, alien DNA's.... better stick with a known lineage like Micro$..t....

seriously.... :D

what is evolution?

is it
- experimental stuff?
- import beers
- revolution
- patches due to unknown system bugs ;)
- real bug fixes
- simply brandname differentiations, adding trademark movements just to differentiate one lineage from another.....
- the market is just waiting for a new version :D

[PaulH]

Evolution is a process of adaptation to the environment. WSL often stated that SLT is a young idea. It will mature in its own fullness of time. One does not ask an embryo how it will evolve. The possibilities of its potential development are endless. It's up to you. SLT is of your body, for your body (needs), and by your body (mechanics and capacity).

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Evolution is simple. Inevitable mutation that leads to eithe reduced or enhanced survival. Reduced dies out, enhanced flourishes. Every generation is a new roll of the dice.

*Everything* evolves, even if its only by replicative error.

[anerlich]

One key point is constant relaxation, so what happens when our relaxed stomach recieves a solid strike?

Actually, IMO the body absorbs and dissipates force better when relaxed and allowed to move around the blow, than when held tense and rigid. Russian MA in particular has drills and exercises designed to increase one's capacity to absorb shock. Indeed, their philosophy appears to be that you should learn to absorb blows first, so that you can understand and thus reduce the overraction caused by fear to an incoming blow, and thus deal with it more effectively. Not to say that anyone becomes invulnerable, rather that a more realistic attitude to impact and its effect on the body is developed.

I personally find this more logical and realistic than trying to metaphorically turn oneself into a lump of hard steel.


One flip side of this argument could be: Do we train to attack or to take hits?

Wing Chun trains to attack, and to redirect force/hits. However, few "pure" WC practitioners I have seen do much training to handle the worst case scenario, requiring the absorption or shedding of impact as described.

[S.Teebas]

Anerlich Says:


Actually, IMO the body absorbs and dissipates force better when relaxed and allowed to move around the blow, than when held tense and rigid. Russian MA in particular has drills and exercises designed to increase one's capacity to absorb shock. Indeed, their philosophy appears to be that you should learn to absorb blows first, so that you can understand and thus reduce the overraction caused by fear to an incoming blow, and thus deal with it more effectively. Not to say that anyone becomes invulnerable, rather that a more realistic attitude to impact and its effect on the body is developed.


Sounds interesting. Care to share some of the exercises that they practice?... Or alternativelty point to a resource?

This reminds me of when i first started training in martial arts, i started in Kyokushin too. This hard style of karate uses tension to stop strikes, or stay protected in certain areas. I recall training with some of the more advanced guys ..and we did exersices were they tence up their stomach and the other person strikes as hard as they can repeatedly into the others stomach. When i did this exersice, i had to stop punching because ran out of steam before the guy felt he had enough. These guys trained so they had abs of steel!

This russan training sounds opposite to this, would it be able to take the same kind of hitting do you think?

[old jong]

I think that SLT should make the practitioner evolve,not the other way around!...;)

[S.Teebas]

What do you mean old jong?


I think that SLT should make the practitioner evolve,not the other way around!...

[Savi]

I think he means this:

1. If the SLT or WC has to evolve, then it is not complete.

2. If you have to evolve, then you still have more to learn.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi


1. If the SLT or WC has to evolve, then it is not complete.

2. If you have to evolve, then you still have more to learn.


Even under one sun, the world evol from men wearing leaf to men can fly now.

SLT is just a set. even physics has evol to quatum physics.

There is no complete because the world is an open system and alive....
from trading to silve coins to credit card to electronics banking.....

and art need not to keep it same rigid out fit shape.

Some add Kicks into SLT. and that is fine, if they believe there is a needs and proven there is a need. doesn't matter original or not.


Original only belongs to museum. and museum means art which has completed or dead.


Why do we think Bruce Lee do? evol... but was not allow by the old custom. thus there JKD.


But then Sunyata doesn't change eventhough keep evol.
So what is that sunyata of SLT? change but not change? or Change itself? or....


The core of Sunyata is philosophy but not history or original or true, because there is no original or true void space. void space is void space. it is independent of time, location, angle....... and it is not fomulars or fix motion or kuen kuit. it is beyond that --- it is live itself. spring never die even the house has changed from tree or cave to glass sky scraper.

it is not about shao lin or emei or white crane. it is not about Ng mUi or Tan sau ng or JeeShim. it is about do you have it alive?

[kj]

Originally posted by old jong
I think that SLT should make the practitioner evolve,not the other way around!...;)

Point well made, Old Jong.

Regards,
- kj

[Savi]

So yeah, just stating my interpretation of what Old Jong stated and then we get into someone's perspective on history. Should have expected it! My bad... Anyways, back to the topic.

My personal opinion about SLT/SNT helping the practitioner evolve is mutual. From my perspective, something that is complete can perpetuate itself identically in an everlasting state. If you were to come across it, it will change you and not the other way around. Now of course that process is also influenced by the competance and knowledge of the teacher, but the stronger his/her identification with the SLT/SNT or any other thing, the better chance of its passing to the next generation intact and unchanged.

I think the more personalizations and modifications one makes from generation to generation, the futher one gets from its original state, whatever that may be. I'm with Old Jong's statement.

[Vyvial]

everyone's SNT is different, that's the beuty of it. You make it your own, but if you modify it for yourself and then pass it on as "correct" then you are doing a disservice to your students, you would not be allowing them to learn their own SNT. They would be forced to learn your version. Which will lead to watered down kung fu. Look at JKD as an example of someone modifying WC to suit their needs.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Vyvial
everyone's SNT is different, that's the beuty of it. You make it your own, but if you modify it for yourself and then pass it on as "correct" then you are doing a disservice to your students, you would not be allowing them to learn their own SNT. They would be forced to learn your version. Which will lead to watered down kung fu. Look at JKD as an example of someone modifying WC to suit their needs.


I agree but which version of SLT is the closest to the original one?

[yuanfen]

Hendrik-

I don't know what the "original" slt exactly looked like..

and things evolve... but the main features of the slt(inclusive of details) transmitted by Ip Man via the students who studied with him for a decent length of time are logically, intuitively, and bio mechanically---when studied in depth--- superb for both development and providing a foundation for self defense..

Joy

PS> Of course among lineages one can quibble about some of the details

[Phenix]

I don't know what the "original" slt exactly looked like..---Joy

Joy,
I don't either and don't think it is important since we are not cloning robots.....

[Vyvial]

I've seen footage of Yip Man playing SNT and Chum Kiu. I know the movements are correct. There is no good reason that all these "grandmasters" have added extra movements to the system. Ving Tsun is supposed to be perfect, if one feels the need to change or modify it, then they haven't really learned the system and they don't trust it.
It means little to me that my forms may look different from others. As long as the details are passed down correctly and the student understands them then i don't care what there SNT looks like.
I could go on forever about this subjest so I'll end it now.

[yuanfen]

Depends on who is doing what for what reason.
There is a tendency of judging what Ip man did or didnt do
on the basis of the footage towards the end of his life.

In any case Ip Man himself changed some things here and there.

Mechanical imitation doesnt do enough or much. There must be effort and guidance and understanding in depth of the details of the motions- not just sequence and the purposes and applications of those motions.

All IMHO of course.

[Vyvial]

Yes, Si Taigung Yip Man learned and taught different things in his life but that dosn't mean that it's ok for someone to make up their own version of the system and pass it off as true WC. Adding to SNT and making up your own Biu Je, wooden dummy form and weapons forms is not. Why? Because they are lying to their students, they are watering down the system and passing a false WC. Preserving and passing down the unchanged system should be every WC Sifu's first priority, so that the system isn't lost or weakened with every generation.

If one feels that they need to make up their own style then I would hope that they would rename it and be honest with their students about what they are doing and why.

[wahh]

IMO

I don't think the SLT should be altered without a really good reason. The SLT is considered a "dictionary" of techniques and principles, and if one were to change the form then there is a risk that you might be altering something important, and then it will be lost to future generations.
As people living in a modern world who have to work and study, most of us don't have as much time to really focus and practice the SLT as our ancestors did. There is a possiblity that our understanding of the form is not as deep as theirs, and although a movement may not make sense to us, there must be a reason why it is in the form.

just my two cents.

[anerlich]

"if one feels the need to change or modify it, then they haven't really learned the system and they don't trust it. "

I wonder if any of the oldtime guys "really learned their system", but then with that increased understanding found it wasn't really the universal answer to all combat problems that their elders told them it was, and that perhaps it *shouldn't* be completely trusted?

Faith I agree with, blind faith I abhor.

There has to be a phase in one's training when when one tests the assumptions and principles that underpin one's system. Even YM said "don't believe me, try it out for yourself".

I agree it's right to pass down a canonical version of the forms to the next generation, though this is a bit problematic when certain grandmasters appear to have taught different students different canonical versions of the same form, or even shown the same student several canonical versions. Still, I agree that there is merit in preserving the tradtional base of the system to the best of one's ability.

What if the forms were not originally designed as canonical sets of movements, like some dogmatic religiious dance, but rather were frameworks for extemporisation and individual exploration?

"There is a possiblity that our understanding of the form is not as deep as theirs"

Perhaps. If so, there is also a possibility that their teaching methodology was flawed. If we follow the implication of that statement down enough generations, eventually no student will understand anything ... and so to succeed they would need to start THINKING FOR THEMSELVES AND CRITICALLY ANALYZING WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

[wahh]

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't think blindfaith is the way to go either. Obviously for something to continue to grow and develop we must test everything we learn. As Yip Man said, "if you don't believe me, try it out yourself".

What I am saying is that the SLT shouldn't be changed because there is a lot of stuff in such a short form. Since it is, i feel it is very open to interpretation and it takes a lot of exploration in each technique. We shoudn't change somethign just because we don't get it. In practice like chisao we can adapt our techniques to any situation but as a reference we shouldn't change it unless we truly understand the form.

IN the end, whatever works best

[Vyvial]

Make the ving tsun prove itself!

[TansauNg]

Hi,

i don't know what u mean about "evolution"...but as i can see, in the Siu Nim Tau performed by GGM Ip Man there are all the tecniques & concepts needfull for a pupil to understand the "seed of WingTsun".. on my web site u'll find a clip in which Ip Man perform the SNT set:

http://www.accademiawingtsunlombardia.it/galleria_filmati.html

[anerlich]

GGM Ip Man

When did Yip Man get promoted to Great Grandmaster? Posthumously I assume?

And if Leung Ting is now a GGM, as well as Master of Almightiness, Shouldn't YM strictly be a GGGM?

I'm not down on WT, I just despair at all this title shenanigans...


Make the ving tsun prove itself!

Or not prove itself, as the case may be ... at least find out the truth.

[Vyvial]

:eek: pssst. don't say anything bad about WT, even as a joke.

[Vyvial]

they'll send you to the bad people site

[jonp]

wing chun is a conceptual system, if the concepts and the mechanics are intact then it doesnt matter what your SNT looks like. (to a degree obviously)

i agree with mr nerlich, the forms are frame works that teach concepts and body mechanics, individual exploration and discovery is one of the great joys of the art in my opinion.

peace

[Vyvial]

I agree with wing chun being a conceptual system but maybe only after you learn it is a whole (or least through Biu Je). There still needs to be a method to learn and pass the kung fu down but once you get the method and can make the kung fu your own, it can be whatever you want it to be.


thanks for the clips tansaung.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Obviously, I would be one to advocate the exploration and “evolution” of not only the forms but also the system as a whole. Concepts are just that, they are not restricted a specific shape or technique. IMHO a lot of the emphasis in SNT is on the energy in each movement. So, if one understands the energy then one can vary the “shape” as the need arises. Also, if the concepts are found within the system does it really matter in terms of sequence etc? Of course if you believe that the 1st part stores energy and the rest of the form help to release this energy then it would matter. But, what I am getting at is the actual sequence per se. As has been point out in my lineage we have reversed the Wu and Fook. Still, the extending Wu is found in the Chum Kui so it is a valid concept in the system. Is it wrong then to incorporate it into the 1st form in order to enable the beginning student a better understanding of how to apply it? After all we are not talking about changing any of the underlying concepts and we have not brought in or added something from another art to “improve” the form. As to Rene’s concern that the withdrawing Wu is neglected, I can tell you, and if we ever meet demonstrate, why and how the withdrawing Wu is still taught within the framework of our approach.

Why is it that direct students of Yip Man have variations in their own SNT’s if “evolution” and change were not an accepted part of learning the system? While it is all fine and good to state someone who has done something you do not agree with is missing the point or does not understand it, I wonder what that says if they end up with a more applicable result. Does this mean that they are doing “true” Wing Chun as they have found the “truth in combat”, as it applies to them? Or does it mean that Wing Chun is not as complete as some of us would like to believe and can learn from outside of the system? Sometimes a different viewpoint can help us to better understand our own art without needing to bring anything else to the table, sometimes added a little spice to the pot adds flavor and makes for a better dish. One must be careful though as it is possible to ruin a dish with too much or the wrong spices.

Faith is a wonderful thing and it is important for the student to have faith in both his teacher and the system. Blind faith, as has been noted, is rarely of benefit. A lot will depend on how you will be using the system. If you have the opportunity and or desire to participate in no hold barred type of competitions then your approach will be different than someone who trains for the arts sake. Likewise if you train for the street your approach may also be different. Wing Chun is a wonderful system and one of the great things about it is that it does not come in a can. Much like the alphabet, we all get the same letters but how we put them into words and then sentences is totally up to us. Some can write great novels and some short stories, others may have difficulty writing their own name. :D As WSL said something to the effect of not becoming a slave to the system and I think he hit the nail on the head.

As has been pointed out, “evolution” can be beneficial or harmful. We as students, if we have confidence in our teachers should be willing to take their advice and see if any changes benefit us.

Peace,

Dave

[yuanfen]

Sihing 73 -Dave sez-

As has been point out in my lineage we have reversed the Wu and Fook.

((Dave you can do what you think best--- but change is not necessarily an improvement. ... IMO that includes the reversal of wu and fook))

Still, the extending Wu is found in the Chum Kui so it is a valid concept in the system.


((Extending wu in the chum kiu? Where? Also apples and oranges- chum kiu is about turning- so things adjust to the turning))

Is it wrong then to incorporate it into the 1st form in order to enable the beginning student a better understanding of how to apply it?

((I think it bypasses the foundation -developing the structure of the wu before applying it))



Why is it that direct students of Yip Man have variations in their own SNT’s if “evolution” and change were not an accepted part of learning the system?

((( "Direct" students were fewer in number than is supposed. You have also quite different durations of training... and ine evry field there are also ACD and F students in the same class))

Sometimes a different viewpoint can help us to better understand our own art without needing to bring anything else to the table, sometimes added a little spice to the pot adds flavor and makes for a better dish.

((May be rhetorically sound- but perceptions on reality can be different))

Joy

[Rolling_Hand]

<<Why is it that direct students of Yip Man have variations in their own SNT’s if “evolution” and change were not an accepted part of learning the system?>>Sihing73

hahaha....Yip Man once said this to his students, "If you do your SNT and it feels good, you must be headed in the right direction."

[canglong]

SLT is just a set.--phenix
If this is true then why does it need to evolve.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong

If this is true then why does it need to evolve.

Sometimes, the people who advocate not to evolve and change.... is the people who modified things the most.

[ZIM]

Does Jing/force evolve Form or does Form evolve Jing/force?

Of course, I believe that mind/intention plays a significant role, but keeping it on this level might shed better illuminations...

[yuanfen]

Zim sez:

Does Jing/force evolve Form or does Form evolve Jing/force?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
The jings are aspects of primal enrgy--- forms in different styles
attempt to capture them and contribute to individaul dvelopment IMO. Joy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik sez:
Sometimes, the people who advocate not to evolve and change.... is the people who modified things the most.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
True-

In much of TCMA in traditional teaching settings good teachers had an overaching sense of the system and the inter-relatedness
of the practices.

Wrenching an art from its setting and practicing it ina different setting IMO can involve adjustments in order to nourish the basic principles. In the US it would be hard for instance to practice under guidance every day- seven days a week.

Thus if we focus only on some things--- including the very important slt--- one can lose the nuances of many other important things and their applications....that were taught in
individualized ways during training.

An illustration is: trying to infer what Ip man's understanding was by just imitating the video made just before his death- without
knowing what else he did.

So mechanically focusing on or reifying and canning some parts of the art without understanding the totality can result in importing things from elsewhere and can end up resulting in mishmash in transmitting the art to others.FWIW/IMHO of course.

Joy

But exceptional persons who know exactly what they are doing
can capture the key features of an art in a different setting.
Thus classical sitar players ina concert in the west can and do use
a gadget or two to keep track of timing and beat.

[canglong]

"Sometimes, the people who advocate not to evolve and change.... is the people who modified things the most."--phenix Evolve or evasive does this mean you don't know, you don't understand or you can't answer Zim's question.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
Evolve or evasive does this mean you don't know, you don't understand or you can't answer Zim's question.


In Chinese, it is said, one has to make just a slight move and the expert will pick up whether one knows or not. Let the expert in the future pick up who modified, who changes....

The truth is in the reality.

[canglong]

In Chinese, it is said, one has to make just a slight move and the expert will pick up whether one knows or not. Let the expert in the future pick up who modified, who changes....--phenix and still no answer real or otherwise.

"Better stop short than fill to the brim.
Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Amass a store of gold and jade, and no one can protect it.
Claim wealth and titles, and disaster will follow.
Retire when the work is done.
This is the way of heaven."

[Phenix]

Originally posted by canglong
and still no answer real or otherwise.

"Better stop short than fill to the brim.
Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.
Amass a store of gold and jade, and no one can protect it.
Claim wealth and titles, and disaster will follow.
Retire when the work is done.
This is the way of heaven."



Real answer?
every one knows it, and you don't know?

everyone knows one can find it in Bangkok's muay thai match stadium.

when are you going to have fun there, see if your SLT's magical TAHN SAU works again those thai boxer. If not then that is time to improve and evol your TAHN SAU, and ofcause your SLT. But not about EVOL the spelling of TAN Sau that doesn't work with the Thai. :D

[anerlich]

Good post yuanfen.

The arguments between Phenix/Hendrik/HSanto and Rolling Hand are the incomprehensible force meeting the unintelligible object. There is nothing to win here, no prizes are awarded for grandiose doggerel.

[ZIM]

Jiminy Crickets! Never a point in asking a question! Forget it, I'll go back to bozosity :(

[yuanfen]

Zim-
are you referring to your earlier question on form and jing-
and which evolves which? A legitimate question.

I believe that i gave you an answer.

In any case another shot at an answer follows:

There are different "jings" (geng)--- different manifestations of "energy"-
for sticking, listening, exploding, guiding etc..

Doing the forms properly in a live manner builds up one's energy
and also teaches how to direct geng for sticking, listening, exploding, guiding etc. The direction is made possible by the mind.

Doing forms properly develops everything- then chi sao provides the
lab. for applications.

I dont know whether the above helps- but I hope so.

[Phenix]

Hi Joy,

agree.



-----------------------

In any case another shot at an answer follows:

There are different "jings" (geng)--- different manifestations of "energy"-
for sticking, listening, exploding, guiding etc..

Doing the forms properly in a live manner builds up one's energy
and also teaches how to direct geng for sticking, listening, exploding, guiding etc. The direction is made possible by the mind.

Doing forms properly develops everything- then chi sao provides the
lab. for applications.

[Phenix]

Is kick in SLT/SNT. an original, a modification, an add on, or an evolution?

Why is GM Yip Man, Fung family, YKS, SN, Cho, Pan Nam doesn't has kick in thier SLT/SNT set? is thier evol out of kick or there is no kick in to start with?

[anerlich]

There is a thread on the History forum of The Underground Forum entitled "Wing Chun - Evolution".

Some of you self-appointed history experts and Ch'an shamans in your own minds might want to check it out. Maybe even contribute. You might learn something, even. There's some fairly smart people and competent historians on that forum who post there so don't think you'll blow them away with your "expert knowledge".

Rene, and yuanfen, even though not in the above categories, you might have some good info to contribute to that discussion.

http://www.mma.tv/TUF

[yuanfen]

Interesting forumAndrew- thanks for the link.
I looked at it briefly--- didnt see much wing chun- probably didnt scroll carefully enough.Will get back to it later.

Pretty long and interesting thread on the Gurkhas---including
a funny anecdote on a group pf Gurkhas crying- because the Argentines in the Falkland affair ran away and the Gurkhas didnt get to fight.

In broadened recruitment many eatsern Nepalis were declaring themselves as Gorkhas, whreas the real ones are from Western
Nepal from some specific clans--- some of the best are Gurungs and Thapas.

I have had two Gurkha teachers- once upon a time.

Well wing chun history is more tricky for me than the Gurkha stories.
There is the classic WW2 anecdote of a relatively new Brit. officer
asking his Gurkhas to volunteeer tobe "dropped" from planes behind German lines. Only half volunteered. Later the disappointed officer asked them why more didnt volunteer to be parachuted . The Gurkhas answered... parachutes? no one said anything about parachutes---we are brave but just being dropped from the air isnt everyones idea of bravery .
isnt communication great??