What is the differnces, between Northern and Southern Mantis?

[8gates]

Hello,
I'm new to the KF Fourms, I practice Yang Short style Tai Chi Chuan and 13 Movement Tai Chi.
I know a little about the Mantis style, but can anyone tell me what are the differnces, between Northern and Southern Mantis?

Thank You.

[Oso]

I'll take a stab at this one, though there are probably more knowledgeble folks that can tell you more.

The origins of the two are completely different. Northern being derived from several patently 'northern' flavored systems such as long fist and eagle claw. There are many threads about the origins of NPM here.

Southern has it's origins in the Hakka people's of southern china and has a distinctly southern short hand flavor. My experience w/ southern mantis was comparable to my experience with hung gar: shorter, somewhat tighter hand work and similar stances and footwork methods. In the two day seminar I attended there was no use or mention of the 'mantis claw' and no 'ou lou tsai' type of pattern at all. I've read somewhere (though I can't recall where) that the 'mantis' aspect/name for southern mantis was created as a mask of sorts. Don't hold me to that and I'll deny everything. ;)

spend some time searching the archives, you'll probably find many answers there and hopefully some of the people here will chime in...I'm curious too.

[PHILBERT]

The North Side (http://www.shaolin.com/page.asp?content_id=975)

The South Side (http://www.shaolin.com/page.asp?content_id=978)

Eight Step's history (http://www.8step.com/mantis/mantis.html)

[Oso]

the responses to that site's NPM history and description will certainly be entertaining and educational.;)

[mantis108]

Welcome to the board, 8gates. :)

It is a very interesting topic indeed. I agreed with Oso that the history and descriptions on the link about the NPM would raise some eyebrows. ;)

Let's take quick look:

<<<Seven Stars: Footwork follows a pattern resembling the seven classical stars in Chinese astrology, i.e., being intricate in nature. While all branches stress emitting power from the waist, this school is largely soft-style, evading direct power confrontations.>>>

I think it meant the big dipper. The "largely soft-style" description is interesting. As far as I am aware, 7 Stars is consider more a "gang" or hard-style.

<<<Plum Blossom: Stresses plum-flower fist strategies, such as three or five staccato punches in sequence; using a fist in preference to open hands; and generally being considered an introductory style, not going on to truly advanced techniques.>>>

An introductory style, not going on to truly advanced techniques? I am not sure how the author can justisfy that at all.

<<<Six Combinations (Six Harmony): Combines three Yin and three Yang principles to evade or absorb an attack softly and attack in a hard manner.>>>

I am not really qualify to comment on the style. From my research on the style, it would seem that this style might have absorded Six Combinations style (Liuhe Men aka Shaolin Wei To Men) influences. It is interesting that even in Taiji Tanglang GM Liang Xuexiang's curriculums there was Liuhe spear, which seemed to be once a point of time included in Ming military training.

<<<Spotless (unmarked, bare, plain): The branch northern stylists refer to as "southern", the wrists are kept bent and hands open in order to generate a whipping power over short distances. Relies more upon hand work than other northern styles.>>>

This is southern? I am frankly stunted by this statement.

I resently come across a book by WHF, courtesy of Tainan Mantis (thanks my friend). WHF has an entry concerning 3 different styles, Light/shinny/bright spot, Plum Blossom, and 7 stars. He basically said these 3 are the same according to his teacher GM LGY.

Most people translated "Guang Buan" as shinny broad or bare back. If we look at WHF's writing he used the character "class" (pronounced as Buan) not "broad". Those 2 words sound very similar in Chinese. Also "class" and "spot/mark" is very similar in writing yet the pronouncation remains the same. This is most likely a publishing error not corrected. BTW, Guang is light/bright.

Factoring in the possible publishing errors, the light spot is just markings that appear on the mantis that looks a lot like the stars as we look up into the night sky. That's not umcommon to the insect to have that type of a markings. Most of the time people think of stars as the five point drawings which is really more of a human convention than the real thing.

So 7 stars and Guang Buan are most likely the same thing. Not the southern as this site claims.

<<<Secret Door (closed door): The most prevalent family style of mantis, uses low stances and great use of elbow strikes. Transitions are far more complex than other styles, used as feints to get into the preferred close-range striking position.

Jade Ring: Named for its peculiar footwork.

Dragging Hand: Uses grappling and grabbing techniques, not unlike Aikido. Back of wrist strikes are common, and the style prefers breaking to striking (mantis' answer to Ch'in Na.)

Eight Step: Emphasis here is on sticking hands, and leading an opponent to a point of vulnerability. Little actual evasion is employed, as practitioners are taught the superiority of leading the assailants.

Tan Tui: "Detecting legs" aims to check opponent's move into a favorable attack position. Kicks are uncharacteristically low and fast, delivered with snap, and rarely above the knees. Practitioners of this branch are taught the use of feet over and above handwork.

T'ai Chi (also known saying/Yang or Tai Mantis): Delivers all strikes with great internal power, using a penetrating strike rather than sub-surface impact. Parries are favored to blocks, and power generates from the ground to the waist to technique.>>>

I am short on time now. So won't go into the rest. Unless there is further interest in those, I would leave those for now. BTW, for one of the best resources on the history of the styles of NPM, please check the MantisCave website.

Regards

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

I resently come across a book by WHF, courtesy of Tainan Mantis (thanks my friend). WHF has an entry concerning 3 different styles, Light/shinny/bright spot, Plum Blossom, and 7 stars. He basically said these 3 are the same according to his teacher GM LGY.

Mantis108,

I think I know which book you are referring to written by WHF. It is actually a compilation of many of his essays on Praying Mantis and CMA in general. I believe that essay is titled, "Three Styles originally One style". My translation of it is not quite the same as yours. I don't think he actually says that they are the same as in identical but that the different branches of Mantis were all originally one. Meaning, although many branches and variations of mantis have evolved over the years, they all trace back to the same roots and all should share similar concepts and theories.

More broadly, I think he was addressing the differences among the branches and that perhaps to bicker or quarrel about the different variations is not so important because all branches come from the same root.

While I do find it interesting to examine other branches to see how they have modified or refined the system in their own way, I think of it as an academic exercise. I strongly believe one should choose a specific branch as a base and dabble in the others just for some exposure or additional insight. As you know, each branch can have very different body mechanics (sun faht), footwork (bo faht), and power generation (faht ging).

I guess even during WHF's time there were debates amongst the different praying mantis sects.

Anyway, just wanted to offer that maybe WHF did not mean that the different branches were the same as in identical but from the same origins.

YM

[Young Mantis]

8gates,

In answer to your original question, in short, they are completely different systems. All they share are the words "praying mantis" in their names. It would be like asking, what are the differences between Eagle Claw and Tiger Claw?

YM

[Mr.Binx]

I will try my best to denote, in layman's terms, the root differences between SPM and NPM with my limited experiences of the two arts:

Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu has the appearance of striving to become the insect for which it is named after. If you were to sit down and observe a praying mantis and the way it moves, then you would recognize this same flow of motion and movement in Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu. It is a very aesthetically captivating art... I'd even go so far as to say that it has a mesmerizing quality to it's movements.

Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu is more a conglomeration of various non-insectile emulations and other kung fu with the mantid focus of the art lying primarily on the tactical ideology or combat theory of a praying mantis, rather than the insect's entire persona. A practicioner rarely appears to have any insectile motion during application, though it has it's brief moments. Spirals and circular power-generation of the limbs and torso punctuate the flow of motion in Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

It is readily apparent to most, from a first glance, that each of these two arts is different and has it's own distinct flavor and ideals. I hope that these personal insights may be of help to someone.

[mantis108]

Hi Young Mantis,


I think I know which book you are referring to written by WHF. It is actually a compilation of many of his essays on Praying Mantis and CMA in general. I believe that essay is titled, "Three Styles originally One style". My translation of it is not quite the same as yours. I don't think he actually says that they are the same as in identical but that the different branches of Mantis were all originally one. QUOTE]

Yes, you are right about the book. :)

I tend to agreed with you. Yet given the resource (rather limited at the time) for research purposes and his loyality to the 7 Star clan, it would seem that he really meant "3 styles originally 1 family". We have to take his source of information into consideration when he worte that essay. All of the names he mentioned were of 7 Stars lineage. He went as far back to Wang Yongshen, his great grandteacher, who in WHF's words taught 3 disciples 3 different frames (upper, middle, and lower ) of techniques; hence, the "misunderstanding" of 3 styles were different by many people. This would be he preception of the time.

Having said all that, I don't think it was his fault. I believe he genuinely wanted to help clarify things with what was available to him. He had good intention.

I also strongly agreed with "Meaning, although many branches and variations of mantis have evolved over the years, they all trace back to the same roots and all should share similar concepts and theories."

[QUOTE]More broadly, I think he was addressing the differences among the branches and that perhaps to bicker or quarrel about the different variations is not so important because all branches come from the same root.

I generally agreed. But I also think that we need to bear in mind that both 7 Stars and Meihwa (collective term for TJPM/TJMHPM/MHPM) already parallelly developing their respective style by GM Wang YongShen time.


While I do find it interesting to examine other branches to see how they have modified or refined the system in their own way, I think of it as an academic exercise. I strongly believe one should choose a specific branch as a base and dabble in the others just for some exposure or additional insight. As you know, each branch can have very different body mechanics (sun faht), footwork (bo faht), and power generation (faht ging).

Academic exercise is a great description! Well put. :)

I agreed with your suggestion to have a base art or strong fundamentals in Mantis before branching out.


I guess even during WHF's time there were debates amongst the different praying mantis sects.

It would seem that there were "real" or "fake" mantis style and who is authentic type of debate at the time. It is one of the issues he addressed.


Anyway, just wanted to offer that maybe WHF did not mean that the different branches were the same as in identical but from the same origins.

Either way, I think his intentions were honorable and genuine. There shouldn't be any fault assigned. I do believe like you suggested that we should go pass the issue and aim for a greater and higher goal in our community.

Thanks for the input. It's great. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108