Concerning Sai in China...

[Evad]

Ok guys check this one out.....goto the link below

www.saolim.tk

Click on the south shaolin temple on the left.

It's an article on the recent discovery of the southern shaolin temple and it's rebuild. good read. (Fellow SDer's it mentions GM Sin's stele he placed as tribute.)

Scroll down the pics until you get to the one with some old weapons excavated from the original site....

Lo and behold there sits a SAI!

I read an article in kungfumagazine a while back that talked about the use of 'whips' by law enforcement in old china. They were called whips because that's what you did with em, whipped the crap out of someone. Anyway, the pics they had in the article was basically a sai, they were different shapes and sizes but they were all identical to a regular ol sai.

[shaolinarab]

yes, that is pretty cool. it's under the putien temple section...what's interesting is that these are EXCAVATED sais.

so what do u think of that masterkiller ? ;)

[joedoe]

And your point is?

Ngor Chor Kun has the sai as one of its weapons. I happen to know the form - it is one of my favourites.

BTW some of those pictures have been stolen from a Ngor Chor website. I might email the guy about it.

[Laughing Cow]

I only saw 1 possible sai there, the rest looked more like spear and tiger-fork heads.

From what I know the chinese had Sai but the somehow were different from the okinawan variety.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolinarab
yes, that is pretty cool. it's under the putien temple section...what's interesting is that these are EXCAVATED sais, and there are short and long varieties.

so what do u think of that masterkiller ? ;)

Long variety? What I saw was one sai and a few tiger fork heads.

[Evad]

Well I have no point joedoe other than I've seen some debate recently concerning the sai as a chinese weapon, sparked my interest a little.

I agree that I see one representation and the rest spear and tiger fork heads.

Just really wanted to get some conversation going about this weapon. I enjoy the sai form that we have also, but we really don't have much more than that out right now.

[Serpent]

I can't find the pics. Can someone nick them and attach them to this thread?

[joedoe]

OK fair enough. I guess a lot of people believed the story about how the sai was an Okinawan weapon, and the sai as we generally know it probably was. I have been told the Chinese version is slightly different, but in what way I am not sure and for the purposes of practicing the form and learning the application the Okinawan/Japanese version will suffice.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by joedoe
And your point is?
The point is we have a bunch of blowhards on here saying that Shaolin Do isn't chinese in origin because we use sais. Well behold, there are some chinese sai.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent
I can't find the pics. Can someone nick them and attach them to this thread?

Go to 'South Shaolin Temple' on the left side, and select the 'Putian Temple' link across the top. Then wait half an hour for the images to load.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Serpent
I can't find the pics. Can someone nick them and attach them to this thread?

Here, especially for you. :D

[Laughing Cow]

Funny me and Joedoe said the same things in different posts.
:D

[themeecer]

Here is the pic serpent:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/info-kungfu-supply/martial/images/nanshaolin_museum2.jpg

Also one here from Quanzhou Southern Shaolin Temple.

http://www.shaolincenter.com/china02trip/Quanzhou/Weapon%20Rack%20close%20up.jpg

[Evad]

The only reference to a chinese 'sai' I've ever seen was in the article that I have in the zine that sponsors this forum. The pics they had in the article showed what amounted to a sai except that the middle was a little longer, and some had knobs at intervals going up the length of it, sorta like a rope with knots tied in it. Some had smaller side prongs as well, and then again some had larger side prongs that were ornate and more curvy. If I can dig up that issue I'll scan the pics and see if I can get them posted for reference. That article was neat, it had pics of lots of different representations of what they were calling a whip. The article was on whips actually, everything from the chain whip to the 'whip' used by law enforcement.

Maybe Gene would know some good sources for research?

[Goldenmane]

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming asserts, in "Ancient Chinese Weapons - A Martial Artist's Guide" that the sai originated as a hair pin, and was a favoured weapon of martial artists in Canton and Fujian Provinces, and Taiwan.

[Ben Gash]

The Sai is used in 5 Ancestors, Southern Mantis, Mok Gar, White Crane and Hay Say Fu Hung Gar. I even know CLF and Hung Gar lineages with it.

[Fred Sanford]

The point is we have a bunch of blowhards on here saying that Shaolin Do isn't chinese in origin because we use sais. Well behold, there are some chinese sai.

yeah it was the sais. :rolleyes:

it wasn't the gis, the poorly contrived history, or anything else. it was the sais.

[Ben Gash]

While I'm not going to make any comment on the validity or otherwise of SD, if you read Weapons and fighting arts of Indonesia by Draeger it shows Indonesian Fukien crane practitioners in Gis.

[Judge Pen]

That's interesting Ben. Thanks for the info.

Now if we could only find links to Chinese Nunchukus (edit: Two-section staff) are quest for kung fu legitimacy would be complete! :p There were at the Southern Temple, I tell you, but since they were wood they haven’t' been found in the relics. :cool:

[Laughing Cow]

Chen Taiji has a 2 section staff form.
;)

But I don't think it falls under the nunchaku category.

[Goldenmane]

Now if we could only find links to Chinese Nunchukus (edit: Two-section staff) are quest for kung fu legitimacy would be complete!

Again with Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming's "Ancient Chinese Weapons - A Martial Artist's Guide"... he asserts that the Nunchaku came from the Cangue Staff (Lian Ja Gun).... Created during the Northern Song Dynasty (960 - 1127 A.D.).

I cannot say that I have the background to assert as to Dr. Yang's historical credentials, but it is interesting.

[MasterKiller]

If I see one more person call nunchuks a "two-section staff" I'm gonna punch the Dukes of Hazzard fan in the next cubicle just out of principle.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
If I see one more person call nunchuks a "two-section staff" I'm gonna punch the Dukes of Hazzard fan in the next cubicle just out of principle.

LOL! :D Do you really need an excuse to puch the DOH fan?

GM, does Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming call this weapon a Nunchuku? Or even Numchuku? :p

[Shaolin-Do]

"yeah it was the sais.

it wasn't the gis, the poorly contrived history, or anything else. it was the sais."

Already took care of the "gi" issue too... Now your arguments are "poorly contrived history, or anything else".

[Ben Gash]

Short Sweeper is the usual name. I know of Mok gar and Baji schools that teach it.

[MasterKiller]

This is a 2-section staff (http://www.wle.com//products/w110.html)

Notice the 97-in. length. Hardly what you would call nunchuks.


Already took care of the "gi" issue tooUh....no you didn't.;)

[Shaolin-Do]

Theres quite a few TCMA schools that Ive seen in Gi's... Pictures of SC dudes in Gi's as well... anyone who thinks SC isnt a legit TCMA is retarded. If Gi's de-legitimize an art, then the latter is true. which its not.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

Uh....no you didn't.;)

The gi issue is the most irrelevant argument against SD in my opinion. Not that I even wear a gi; different schools wear different uniforms.

I understand that two-section staff is also known as the "lashing staff" and is a different weapon (I said that because I know it gets a rise out of you ;) ), but I wasn't aware of the term "short sweeper." Anyone here train that weapon?

[MasterKiller]

Hey everyone, SD trains in Shuia Chiao now.

Guess what...SD takes Shuia Chaio lessons.

Everyone hear that? SD takes Shaui Chaio lessons.

Shuai Chiao, people....SD is taking lessons.

That's right, SD is taking Shuai Chiao lessons.


OK....I think everyone heard it that time. Let's move on.


The gi issue is the most irrelevant argument against SD in my opinion.I agree, somewhat. I mean, it really doesn't matter what you wear. What I don't buy is the expalantion for why SD trains in GIs. If you want to wear them because they are cheap, practical, comfortable, whatever, more power to you.

But the argument that the GI is traditional because Shaolin monk's wear wrap-around Buddhist robes is ridiculous.

In fact, I don't have a problem with Sais or Nunchuks if you admit where the influence comes from. But changing the name to "2 section staff" seems like they are trying hard to make history fit Sin The's system in order to legitimize his claims.

Just call it what it is, and no one would really care. It's the *******ization of accepted history that gets most people's goats.

[Ben Gash]

Lashing staff refers to the long 2 section staff shown by MK, also known as a big sweeper. The Short sweeper is a more nunchaku style weapon, although often has a longer section and a shorter section (kinda like a scaled down lashing staff, hence the name).

[Ben Gash]

Fu Jow Pai guys wear Gis with a similar explanation, are they dodgy?........
OK, They're nice Chinesified Gis, and this is a blatant troll but.....

[MasterKiller]

Buddhist robes are for Buddhists. They are not martial arts uniforms. That's not saying all wrap-around outfits are Buddhist robes, but if you claim your are wearing it BECAUSE of Shaolin, then I would say you are being sacreligeous.

Catholics don't walk around in pope outfits, unless they attend Temple Kung Fu classes, that is.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
yeah it was the sais. :rolleyes:
it wasn't the gis, the poorly contrived history, or anything else. it was the sais.
Dude,
That was one of the arguments and like Shaolin Do said we have successfully combated the others as well. It really ticks me off when you people bring arguments on here against us that once defeated you make no acknowledgment at all.
Even if we had a freakin time machine and I took you back to the temple with Grandmaster Su teaching at you would still find some way to weasel out of it. Your type disgusts me.

[Brad]

Fu Jow Pai guys wear Gis with a similar explanation, are they dodgy?........
OK, They're nice Chinesified Gis, and this is a blatant troll but.....
What the heck is a Chinesified Gi, and who are these Fu Jow Pai guys that wore gis to trick the Japanese? :D

Anyway, I think two section staff is a different weapon than a numbchuk (:D) All the pics of antique one's I've seen have looked like this one: http://www.wle.com/media/W110.jpg except many seemed to have what looked like a bolt or something wraped around the ends... I'll try to find the pics later

Also it's not the sais that causes critisizm of SD, it's more like a combination of A LOT of various issues. Surprised no one's bought GM Sin's biography and picked apart that yet though :D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

But the argument that the GI is traditional because Shaolin monk's wear wrap-around Buddhist robes is ridiculous.

In fact, I don't have a problem with Sais or Nunchuks if you admit where the influence comes from. But changing the name to "2 section staff" seems like they are trying hard to make history fit into Sin The's system to legitimize his claims.

I don't think I buy into that argument either although It’s possible that there may have been CMAs training in outfits similar to gis in China prior to the boxer rebellion. (I'm not saying Buddhist robes either). I was interested in the Fujian White Crane people wearing gis was interesting since their lineage is arguably close to ours (China to Indonesia thing) Gis were probably cheaper, more durable, and more accessible in 1960s Kentucky also, but that can't be all there was to the debate since paintings and pictures of the The brothers from Indonesia show them wearing gis and their teacher wearing a traditional Chinese attire. I frankly don't care about this part of the debate.

The sai weapon I think has been explained as a traditional southern Chinese weapon that was popularized by Okinawan Karate. The Nunchuku weapon is a bit more troubling.

Nunckukus are such a simple and practical design for a weapon that one would think that the Chinese who have such exotic and esoteric weapons like 3 section staff, chain whip, lashing staffs etc would also have a weapon akin to the nunchucku. (Then again, they discovered gunpowder but did not invent the gun ;) ). The short sweeper comes close, but the lengths of the staffs are not equal and therefore distinguishable from the nunchucku.

The argument that use of the weapon is influenced by Karate and, more probably, Americans conceptions of what weapons you should learn in a martial art is compelling, but I'm not willing to say that's all there is to this side of the debate yet.

Edit: Simmer down there themecer. You should know to igore Fred on this. :rolleyes:

[Brad]

me off when you people bring arguments on here against us that once defeated you make no acknowledgment at all.
Hardly anything was explained :confused:

[Shaolin-Do]

"OK....I think everyone heard it that time. Let's move on."

Aww, mk gettin irate that SD has some err... "TCMA" ground to argue pro-SD points from? Irritated that I can make comparisons to the 2 and invalidate stupid arguments?

:eek:
:eek:
:eek:

Hey, guess what. SD practices shaolin do!
Hey everybody, SD practices shaolin-do!
Did you know that I practice shaolin-do?

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed?
Good morning mk, how are you doing this fine morning?
:D

[MasterKiller]

Gis were probably cheaper, more durable, and more accessible in 1960s Kentucky also Cheaper than a Steely Dan T-Shirt and sweat pants? ;)

FWIW, the Chinese tops are not martial arts uniforms, either. They are clothes cut in the manner of traditional Chinese clothing, which is what Chinese people wore all day, and therefore practiced in. As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as a Chinese martial arts uniform.

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed?
Good morning mk, how are you doing this fine morning?
Baby was up all night. Grrrrr.........

[Shaolin-Do]

Cant say I buy into the buddhist robe thing either... Seems more like an off the top of the head explanation...
Another explanation I have heard is that the Karate gi's are significantly cheaper... Dunno how that plays into things in regards to the schools openings in the 70's or whatnot...

[Judge Pen]

[i]
Good morning mk, how are you doing this fine morning?
:D [/B]

He'll feel a lot better after a cup of coffee and he punches the guy in the next cubicle. :D

Actually, SD you seem to be in a bad mood yourself. The tourney got you down?

[MasterKiller]

He'll feel a lot better after a cup of coffee and he punches the guy in the next cubicle MK doesn't drink coffee.

Aww, mk gettin irate that SD has some err... "TCMA" ground to argue pro-SD points from?
Nah, my point was that you throw that around an awful lot lately. 3 weeks does not a master make. ;)

[Shaolin-Do]

Nah, apologies if it seems I came up a little short.
Just didnt like the SC thing, Im not bragging that Im in it. Im using it as a base to help argue for SD. But as no_know would say.. whatever whatever~.
Its a beautiful day.
But yeah, Im kinda bitter that I couldnt go to the tourney. :(
and my back hurts real bad.
Found me a nice half asian broad to play with tho, so I guess things are good around here for now.
:eek:
:D

[Shaolin-Do]

"3 weeks does not a master make"

Neither does 3 years or even 10 for that matter. :)
Never said anything about mastering the sh!t. Not even said anything about barely scratching the surface of it, which is about where Im at.
:eek:
SD cannot function at 7:30 am without proper coffee intake.
Didnt really sleep enough last night either, but its friday, so f*ck it. I get to sleep in tomorrow. :)

But no one really answered, hows everybody today? :)

[Shaolin-Do]

Edit: another reason for the conversation on SC, is that for the most part, the SC members here are about as active in posting on their art as SD. I take part in either conversations, to learn anything new I can about either art, or to expand on what I already know.

[MasterKiller]

10 years of training better make you a master, or else you just wasted 10 years of training.

I know people pay lip service to saying it takes a lifetime of practice to master an art, etc....But really, after 10 years of dedicated study, if you don't know your stuff inside and out, then you wasted your time. Old men do not make good body guards or soldiers.

[Judge Pen]

I'm in a great mood today.

Notice that MK didn't say he doesn't punch the guy in the next cubicle. :p Seriously, anti-caffene? Coffee and bourbon are my two vices. Everyone needs a vice or two.

[Chang Style Novice]

I looked at that really dark picture of the excavated relics, and it looked mostly like trident heads to me, too, based on the hollow "handles."

And I agree with MK - the only problem most have with SD (the style) is that it doesn't appear to be what it claims to be. Well, and the fact that it's wildly successful from a marketing perspective.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
10 years of training better make you a master, or else you just wasted 10 years of training.

I know people pay lip service to saying it takes a lifetime of practice to master an art, etc....But really, after 10 years of dedicated study, if you don't know your stuff inside and out, then you wasted your time.

I guess I've wasted my time because I consider myslef merely competent. How long have you studied MK?

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Edit: Simmer down there themecer. You should know to igore Fred on this. :rolleyes:
Well, after recently being shot at from both sides I am about to loose patience with all these jokers. We even have people posting in other threads a shining moment at a tournament years ago and trying to twist it into a disgrace. I am horrible with names and details so I am waiting for someone to post the real account in there.

I don't have as much a beef with masterkiller anymore after some of his comments in other threads. Also he tends to be more debatable now versus the one that just sling insults left and right on here like fu pow or bobojoe.

[Shaolin-Do]

10 Years you should be able to apply any technique sharply, but by no means have you mastered your art... Good majority of moves have more than 1 application... If you have Chin na in your art, you've better learned anti chin na as well if you are a master...
Master isnt a term I will really throw around...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I looked at that really dark picture of the excavated relics, and it looked mostly like trident heads to me, too, based on the hollow "handles."

And I agree with MK - the only problem most have with SD (the style) is that it doesn't appear to be what it claims to be. Well, and the fact that it's wildly successful from a marketing perspective.

The lineage claims are very debatable and I understand the criticisms. The marketing and success doesn't make it less legitimate, but it does lead to resentment. It also leads to the potential for the art to be watered down by bad teachers which means you must picke your teachers wisely (as with any MA).

[Shaolin-Do]

"Old men do not make good body guards or soldiers."
Certainly not, but they are the "masters"... They can best teach the art.
Maybe after 20 someodd years of dedicated practice...
In the scope of time however, 10 years isnt really that long...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by themeecer

Well, after recently being shot at from both sides I am about to loose patience with all these jokers. We even have people posting in other threads a shining moment at a tournament years ago and trying to twist it into a disgrace. I am horrible with names and details so I am waiting for someone to post the real account in there.

About to loose patience? You haven't shown much patience to begin with which is mainly why you were shot down here. As for there, that's not a topic I want to discuss on the forum out of respect for you and my teachers.

Edit: as for the Blackbelt war thing, I have the account as does radhnoti and I'll be more than willing to sahre that in a PM.

[MasterKiller]

Seriously, anti-caffene? Coffee and bourbon are my two vices. Everyone needs a vice or two. I'm not anti-caffeine, per se, but I limit my intake. I usually drink at the most 2 sodas a day. I just think coffee tastes like @ss.


How long have you studied MK?Going on 6 years.


I guess I've wasted my time because I consider myslef merely competent. Well, talent may have something to do with that. I have no affinity for kung fu, and I am not a natural athlete, so I have to over-compensate with extra training. It pizzes me off when we get a new student, with natural ability, that can do things after a month that I cannot after 6 years.

But really, do you think martial arts are at all practical if you have to train 25 years before it works? The people who used Kung fu the way it was intended did not have the luxury of 25 years of training before they had to apply it.

Master isnt a term I will really throw around...Nor would I. But it doesn't take a doctor 25 years to become a proficient doctor. Sure, they have to keep studying to keep up on new trends and techniques, and sure it may take 20 years before they can teach others proficiently, but after 10 years, they can go out in the world and apply their training. Martial Arts should be no different.

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by Judge Pen

The marketing and success doesn't make it less legitimate, but it does lead to resentment. This is what I was getting at, and as you point out, marketing success can be a mixed bag. Legitimacy, as far as I'm concerned, comes in two basic flavors in MA:

1. Is it a usable, effecient way of whooping ass/defending oneself? If yes, then it is legit. I can't speak to SD's claims here.

2. If it (the art) is viewed as a cultural artifact (not all are) is it a genuine expression of the culture it claims to express? Here's where SD seems really to fall apart.

[Judge Pen]

[i]

Well, talent may have something to do with that. I have no affinity for kung fu, and I am not a natural athlete, so I have to over-compensate with extra training. It pizzes me off when we get a new student, with natural ability, that can do things after a month that I cannot after 6 years.

But really, do you think martial arts are at all practical if you have to train 25 years before it works? The people who used Kung fu the way it was intended did not have the luxury of 25 years of training before they had to apply it. [/B]

I have some natual talent and some natural limitations. I know what you mean about a new student who after a month has full splits and sharp kicks. (my timing is still better but there's the temptation to be envious for God given ability)

I don't think that "making it work" and mastering something is quite the same thing. I intend to train for all my life but I don't know that I'll ever consider myself a Master (and it has nothing to do with titles associated with rank) Can I make it work. I think so under almot any situation. Can I articulate why it works and teach it to someone else? Yeah. Do I consider myself a master? Far from it.

Coffee plus Irish cream. Works wonders.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
About to loose patience? You haven't shown much patience to begin with which is mainly why you were shot down here. As for there, that's not a topic I want to discuss on the forum out of respect for you and my teachers.

Edit: as for the Blackbelt war thing, I have the account as does radhnoti and I'll be more than willing to sahre that in a PM.
I have shown tons of patience in the months I have been posting. I've been been ridiculed and insulted countless times on here just for the art I study with hardly a retort besides attempts at pointing out evidence that supports my argument. Shot down here? How was I shot down here? I was pointing out for joedoe what the point of this thread was.

About the blackbelt war ... do you know what happened to the guy that Master Leonard fought?

[Shaolin-Do]

Man... The past 2 days I keep getting the wierdest deja vu feeling for no particular reason... strange.

"coffee tastes like @ss"
Yes.
"but after 10 years, they can go out in the world and apply their training"
Being able to apply and mastering are 2 different things. I can go to a TCM school for 3 years and go open a TCM shop, be an accupuncturist, ect. By no stretch have I mastered it however...

"It pizzes me off when we get a new student, with natural ability, that can do things after a month that I cannot after 6 years."
= healthy coordinated flexible young people? :D

Edit: Yes I know I will be old and inflexible and quite possibly in significantly poorer shape one day.:)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by themeecer

I have shown tons of patience in the months I have been posting. I've been been ridiculed and insulted countless times on here just for the art I study with hardly a retort besides attempts at pointing out evidence that supports my argument. Shot down here? How was I shot down here? I was pointing out for joedoe what the point of this thread was.

About the blackbelt war ... do you know what happened to the guy that Master Leonard fought?

I was talking about your earliest posts here, your method of defending SD was often as abrasive as the worst trolls here. Your heart was in the right place, and I appreciated your passion and desire to clear up misconceptions, but I thought you would have been listened to more if you were on the attack less. But, hey I'm a passive aggressive person and tend to fight the same way. :)

Yes I know what happened to the guy Master Leornard fought (at least I've been told.) I will copy you the story as its been told to me and PM it to you if you want, but I'm not going to post that here.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
But really, do you think martial arts are at all practical if you have to train 25 years before it works? The people who used Kung fu the way it was intended did not have the luxury of 25 years of training before they had to apply it.
Nor would I. But it doesn't take a doctor 25 years to become a proficient doctor.
I agree with the others that mastery takes a lifetime. In my definition of mastery, proficiency does not equal mastery. I agree that a student should be able to execute techniques after say, 6 years of study. This does not mean they expertly execute them, but they get the job done. My goal is to be a better fighter at 70 than I am now at 29 (30 in 6 days ... brrrr). Whether that happens, who knows, but it will be a fun road that will keep me healthy into my later years.

edit: I also don't like how some people (mostly lay people) equate a black belt as being a sign of an expert. At our school we don't even consider you a student until you earn your blackbelt. Once you earn this you are considered a beginner.

PM me your story JP, thanks. I want to see if it matches up with what I heard. Also PM me your reason for not posting it as well, if you don't mind.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do


Edit: Yes I know I will be old and inflexible and quite possibly in significantly poorer shape one day.:)

:mad: You b@st@rd! Now I really wish you were going to the tournament. I'll show you who's old!











:D

[MasterKiller]

I agree with the others that mastery takes a lifetime. Fair enough, but are all the masters in the SD family tree 75 years old?

Van Gogh died at an early age. Hemingway's best work was done in his 30s, as was Vonneguts and the Rolling Stones. The list goes on. No one peaks at 75.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, that sits wrong with me, too. How about rephrasing to "mastery is a lifetime commitment"? The difference is subtle, but very important.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
"coffee tastes like @ss"

Hmmm ... wouldn't know what that tastes like. Educate us SD. :D

I know ... bad, shouldn't pick on someone this early in the morning. I still wish you would change your mind about the tourney, you were one of the ones I was most looking forward to meeting.

Question: We are having a parade this evening and I can't decide what weapon to carry. It is a small town festival and my teacher has us walk in it for advertisment for the school. If we had stops we would do some two man sets or some sanjie breaks. I am leaning towards my new spiffy tiger hooks I bought from tiger claw a month ago. Those should catch some eyes.

[Chang Style Novice]

MK's edit is misleading, though, I think. Hemingway, Van Gogh, the Stones, etc. were dealing with fine arts, not martial arts. I personally don't think there's much connection between them.

And anyway, some fine artists improve with age, such as Herman Melville, Francis Bacon, Richard Thompson, Beethoven...

[MasterKiller]

Herman Melville Have you read Moby Dlck? Sheesh. What a waste of 2 weeks of my life. :D


And anyway, some fine artists improve with age, such as Herman Melville, Francis Bacon, Richard Thompson, Beethoven... Improving is one thing....But they were famous for their talent long before they were 75 (excluding Melville, who was ruined by Moby Dlck)

[Judge Pen]

Nope they are not all 75 years old, but they have all put in the time and gained the knowledge and experience for the title. I have only encountered a handful of them, but all that I have encounterd deserve the title (for diverse reasons). I, due to the life I have chosen, will not be able to devote that much time and training; therefore my goals are to be proficient only.

[Ground Dragon]

Amazing how quickly these threads take on a life of their own.

I've been told an account of the blackbelt war thing also from someone who was there. From what I understand, it was basically a wash. Wouldn't mind comparing notes though, JP.

[Shaolin-Do]

Good artists dont get recognized until they are dead most times, and Most musical protoge's are addicted to heroin. :)

"ng. I still wish you would change your mind about the tourney, you were one of the ones I was most looking forward to meeting."
Its not my mind thats gotta get changed, its the bosses. :(
I really wanted to go, but time and money constraints proved otherwise... :(
Hopefully Ill have $$ and time to make mullins open tourney.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Ground Dragon
Amazing how quickly these threads take on a life of their own.

I've been told an account of the blackbelt war thing also from someone who was there. From what I understand, it was basically a wash. Wouldn't mind comparing notes though, JP.

:D

My notes come from Radhnoti which, I think, were supplemented by your notes. We probably have the same stuff.

[MasterKiller]

Nope they are not all 75 years old, but they have all put in the time and gained the knowledge and experience for the title. I have only encountered a handful of them, but all that I have encounterd deserve the title (for diverse reasons). I, due to the life I have chosen, will not be able to devote that much time and training; therefore my goals are to be proficient only. Then you answered your own retort. I said 10 years of dedicated training, not 10 years of 3 hours a week (which is what most people do, then wonder why they get beat up in bars). Intensity has to be factored into the equation.

[Judge Pen]

I train about 10 to 15 hours a week and I still don't think I will be a master. The masters I have encountered not only have the training, but that undefinable something extra that I just don't think I have.

[Shaolin-Do]

"I said 10 years of dedicated training, not 10 years of 3 hours a week "
I train 15-20 hours a week, but I seriously doubt Ill be a master by any means in 10 years.
:)
d@mn this spot in my back is killing me.

I was supposed to be with Sifu Ryan Howard's group from SAtown... give them props for me. (those who are at the tourney.)
:)
And much good luck to the other KFO SD members as well. Im sad I couldnt go. :(

[Shaolin-Do]

"The masters I have encountered not only have the training, but that undefinable something extra that I just don't think I have."
Its the mojo JP, the mojo.
:eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

"Have you read Moby Dlck? Sheesh. What a waste of 2 weeks of my life. "

Ah, go back to your Raymond Carver short stories! You clearly lack the attention span required for Great American Novels. I mean, Vonnegut, humph...really now!;)

(I like Vonnegut okay, actually - but he's no Thomas Pynchon!)

[Shaolin-Do]

" You b@st@rd! Now I really wish you were going to the tournament. I'll show you who's old!"

You dont have to show me, you just told me!
:eek:






:D :D :D

[Chang Style Novice]

And anyway, like I said - MA and fine arts don't really track with each other at all. In MA, you know your goal and so does everyone else - win the fight. In the fine arts, everyone has different goals and you'll know it when you find it, and maybe others will disagree. There's really no disagreeing about who's a crumpled heap on the ground and who's limping away a bit the worse for wear.

[MasterKiller]

MK's edit is misleading, though, I think. Hemingway, Van Gogh, the Stones, etc. were dealing with fine arts, not martial arts. I personally don't think there's much connection between them. A skill set is a skill set. Up until about 100 years ago, artists were viewed in the same light as carpenters, brick layers, and metalurgists. You apprenticed to learn a skill you could apply in real life. This notion that "art" is something higher, or more profound, than other skill sets is relatively new in the context of history, and a fallacy as far as I'm concerned. The artistic Christ Complex is elitist snobbery.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
" You b@st@rd! Now I really wish you were going to the tournament. I'll show you who's old!"

You dont have to show me, you just told me!
:eek:






:D :D :D

Well, I have the Mullins tourney in November. My home state, too! Will you be a black sash by then? :D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
A skill set is a skill set. Up until about 100 years ago, artists were viewed in the same light as carpenters, brick layers, and metalurgists. You apprenticed to learn a skill you could apply in real life. This notion that "art" is something higher, or more profound, than other skill sets is relatively new in the context of history, and a fallacy as far as I'm concerned. The artistic Christ Complex is elitist snobbery.

what's this have to do with the price of sai in China?

[Chang Style Novice]

"The artistic Christ Complex is elitist snobbery."

Actually, I agree (and I get in a lot of arguments in my art classes because of it.) But that doesn't change the fact that the goals and means of the two are radically different.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Well, I have the Mullins tourney in November. My home state, too! Will you be a black sash by then"

Nope, but I dont mind sparring anyways. (should have nice headgear by then as well) :)



"Isabel was winding down Friday but not before leaving a strong legacy: at least 14 deaths, thousands of homes flooded"
:(

[MasterKiller]

what's this have to do with the price of sai in China? My point is that MA is skill set which is only practical if you can apply it, the same way that writing, painting, and music are only practical if you can apply them.

But that doesn't change the fact that the goals and means of the two are radically different.
Success is the goal of each, and training is the means to that end.

[Chang Style Novice]

"Success is the goal of each, and training is the means to that end."

True, but too general to be helpful. Mixing colors is nothing like working combos on a heavy bag. An insightful, well written novel doesn't have the same effect as a submission by RNC (you want the reader to stay awake, for one!):p

[Shaolin-Do]

I cant really explain how or why, but I feel that music and kung fu compliment each other nicely.
:)

[MasterKiller]

True, but too general to be helpful. Mixing colors is nothing like working combos on a heavy bag. An insightful, well written novel doesn't have the same effect as a submission by RNC (you want the reader to stay awake, for one!) I disagree. Mixing colors is exactly the same as working a heavy bag. Practicing is practicing. The outcome of one is painting better pictures, the other hitting people harder. In the end, both are used to fine tune skills in order to perfect a technique.

[Chang Style Novice]

If you can't articulate why, I'd venture to say it's just because you like 'em both. I like ice cream and bauhaus sculpture, but I don't think one has anything to do with the other.

[Shaolin-Do]

Physical fitness in a way links to mental sharpness. Mental sharpness aids in maintaining focus. Focus is integral while making/ performing music.
:)

Edit: I can see where MK is comming from in that training for painting is the same as training for kung fu, in the light that it is training. Different methodoligies, but different goals as well. Hitting a heavy bag wont make you a better painter.

[Shaolin-Do]

Oh yeah, and coordination, strength and endurance.
Coordination strength and endurance are great for any instrument. Hand strength helps with guitar. wrist strength and coordination with drums. endurance as well... Pretty much any instrument... See? there are relations between kung fu and music. :)

[MasterKiller]

Hitting a heavy bag wont make you a better painter. Writing a novel won't make you a better musician, either.

[norther practitioner]

And posting about your weed won't make it danker...

I think one of the common links here just boils down to work ethic... but I also think that is why we use the term kung fu...

[themeecer]

Dang it ... I leave for a few minutes to go to Wally World, come back and you are having a philisophical debate.

Art is a way for social outcasts to have an income when they can't hold down a real job. :D

By the way, I wonder if artists argue about the lineage of their paints, their brushes, or their technique? I doubt it, they are probably only concerned with the end product.

[themeecer]

JP, your mailbox is full. Delete something so I can PM you.

[MasterKiller]

By the way, I wonder if artists argue about the lineage of their paints, their brushes, or their technique? I doubt it, they are probably only concerned with the end product.You don't read much literary criticism, do you? ;)

If a writer claimed to hold the one and true lineage of all English poets, and then provided a shakey (at best) account of how he came to hold that knowledge, I betcha people in the literary world would jump all over him.

And there are plenty of people who can paint just like Van Gogh....they still go to jail when they try to sell their stuff as originals. It's called fraud.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm not denying that practice makes perfect, that's just silly. But practices are different enough that comparing them from discipline to discipline is rarely helpful, the exception being when the disciplines are related.

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hitting a heavy bag wont make you a better painter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Writing a novel won't make you a better musician, either."

So, I think we all agree.

As to the issue of "lineage" in art, it sorta matters. People will definitely brag about their teachers (I've done it here before) and their alma mater. But what it really finally comes down to is your show and portfolio. Although there's at least as much "office politics" in the art world as in any other business, including MA. It's not always what you know but who you know, as the saying goes.

[MasterKiller]

But practices are different enough that comparing them from discipline to discipline is rarely helpful, the exception being when the disciplines are related. How is learning to play the piano related to learning to write a novel? They are both 'fine arts.'

Art is a way for social outcasts to have an income when they can't hold down a real jobI made about $35,000 off my first book when I was 24. How much did your first real job pay?

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, but it's an umbrella category. Might as well ask how is epee fencing like BJJ? They're both martial arts.

In all martial arts, speed, endurance, and strength are physical attributes that can come into play, although how they are applied will vary greatly depending on the range and equipment being used.

In all fine arts, expressiveness, perceptiveness, and understanding of the medium are mental attributes that can come into play, although how they are applied will vary greatly depending on the medium in question.

[MasterKiller]

In all fine arts, expressiveness, perceptiveness, and understanding of the medium are mental attributes that can come into play, although how they are applied will vary greatly depending on the medium in question. I would argue these attributes are shared in Martial Arts as well.

Just as playing a piano requires a certian amount of physical dexterity and even conditioning, to a degree.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'll concede perceptiveness and understanding of the medium (which I guess means more like range in this case) but I don't understand where expressiveness comes into it. And that's I think really the main difference between the two.

And while it's true that playing piano takes dexterity and maybe some conditioning, fine arts are mostly a mental activity. Examples in music include Beethoven's deafness and Mingus' ALS, neither of which prevented them from composing. Chuck Close was a near-quadripelegic for a time and continued to paint with brushes his assistants would tape to his hands and charged with paint mixed under his direction.

[MasterKiller]

but I don't understand where expressiveness comes into itI would call this STYLE.


And while it's true that playing piano takes dexterity and maybe some conditioning, fine arts are mostly a mental activity Would you consider sculpture to be a mostly mental activity? What about large-scale constructions or kinetic art? What about singing?

Could Beethoven have composed if he had been born deaf? What if he didn't have any fingers or toes? Would he have been as successful?

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I made about $35,000 off my first book when I was 24. How much did your first real job pay?
Sweet, I didn't know you were a writer. What was the book about? My first job I ever had at 16 was a walking billboard. I stood by the side of the road holding up a big banner for Domino's Pizza. Man, did I ever hate that job.

I actually did very well from a show I did a couple of years ago. Over the course of my lifetime that one appearance will pay me around 60-70K. But I guess magic is considered an art as well. So there goes my real job analogy. Come to think of it, I much prefer fake jobs to real ones. They have the potential to pay more and are a heck of a lot more fun.

[Judge Pen]

PM box is clean.

[Shaolin-Do]

trust me, thats not a problem.
:)

Im working on being a musician. By standards not a real job I guess, but its something I can do that I absolutely love... hopefully Ill make enough money so I can retire by the time I have kids. :)
(Not to sound arrogant, but Im not real worried about making it big in music... We have connections and Im quite musically talented.)
:D
If all else fails, Ill just teach kung fu for a living. :)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
trust me, thats not a problem.
:)

Im working on being a musician. By standards not a real job I guess, but its something I can do that I absolutely love... hopefully Ill make enough money so I can retire by the time I have kids. :)
(Not to sound arrogant, but Im not real worried about making it big in music... We have connections and Im quite musically talented.)
:D
If all else fails, Ill just teach kung fu for a living. :)

That's what I love about you, SD, you're so humble!

I can look back and say, yeah, I knew that guy way back when . . .

[Shaolin-Do]

oops.
Meant to quote NP " And posting about your weed won't make it danker..."

before
"trust me, thats not a problem."

:)
Nah, I just gots more musical experience than most people here do with MA. :)
('cept you old guys with 21+ yrs MA behind you.)
:D

[MasterKiller]

SD,

I wish you well, but I hope you either have a back-up plan or really like the taste of Ramen Noodles. I don't work full-time because I like it. Making money from an artistic endeavor which can bring in a steady stream of money over the course of your life is an extremenly hard proposition, and the odds against it are astronomical.

Especially for musicians. They come and go with the flavor of the month.

[Shaolin-Do]

I dont produce mainstream music, but I dunno... Im not real worried about it for some reason.
I plan on double majoring anyways. Dunno if I want psychology or some type of science yet tho... I love science, but psychology really interests me as well. Probably taking sexology and human sexuality next couple semesters at college... :)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
I dont produce mainstream music, but I dunno... Im not real worried about it for some reason.
I plan on double majoring anyways. Dunno if I want psychology or some type of science yet tho... I love science, but psychology really interests me as well. Probably taking sexology and human sexuality next couple semesters at college... :)

Are these independent studies?

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Nah, I just gots more musical experience than most people here do with MA. :)('cept you old guys with 21+ yrs MA behind you.):D
*Ahem* You are going to have to get your pampers wearing butt to a tournament and we will show you how old we are junior. :)

[Shaolin-Do]

"*Ahem* You are going to have to get your pampers wearing butt to a tournament and we will show you how old we are junior."
lol. Actually, pretty much every beating Ive taken was from an old guy. :eek:
:D
And Ive already said, Im more than happy to spar anyone. I actually learn a lot from taking beatings. I watch what is happening and how Im being set into certain moves, and afterwards Ill ask how and why it happened. Low contact sparring doesnt give me much. :)

edit: By no stretch do I think Im unbeatable, or even a hardcore mofo. I know Im good tho :) Not uberhardcore, just good. :)

[Shaolin-Do]

"Are these independent studies?"
What? Sexology and Human Sexuality? Nah, they are psychology based courses at school :)
Very very interesting for the more open minded.

[norther practitioner]

I took human sexuality in college for an easy A... It wasn't that easy, but was really a good class....:)

The slides of diseases (huge lecture hall, so these things were on a screen just smaller than a movie screen) were a bit gross though.

[Shaolin-Do]

"The slides of diseases (huge lecture hall, so these things were on a screen just smaller than a movie screen) were a bit gross though."
Ugh... Id imagine.
One of my friends said that last semester the teacher showed a vid on better performing oral sex... lol.
I bet it is an interesting ass class however.
And like Ive said before, knowledge of kama sutra comes into play WAAAY more often than my knowledge of kung fu... :D

[themeecer]

Reminds me of a physiology class I had in college. It was a graduate level course taught in the medical school and each section was taught by a MD in that field. I forget the section we were studying at the time but that days topic was on a condition that caused a child's sexual organs grow to normal adult size. Then they brought out the slides. I'm sorry ... I couldn't contain myself. They had this boy of about 6 years of age hung down past his knees. The harder I tried to keep from snickering the more I wasn't able to. I had a few around give me glares, but I know they were laughing as well inside.

[Judge Pen]

How do these threads get to the point we are talking about 6 year olds with large *****'s? Wow. I'm baffeled. :confused:

[Judge Pen]

***** is censored. How about vagina? How are we supposed to talk about iron crotch training if we can't even use anatomical terms? :)

Vagina isn't censored. That's sexism! Foul!

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I would call this STYLE.

Would you consider sculpture to be a mostly mental activity? What about large-scale constructions or kinetic art? What about singing?

Could Beethoven have composed if he had been born deaf? What if he didn't have any fingers or toes? Would he have been as successful?

As far as style goes, I consider it to be a bit of a fallacy in a fighting art. There are objective standards of who's a better fighter, see my earlier comments about who's walking away and who's a crumpled heap on the ground.

I do consider sculpture to be mostly a mental activity. Same with large scale constructions and kinetic art. Most any art of that size is going to be physically made largely by paid assistants, not by the artist himself - consider the example of the architect. What matters are the ideas.

Singing is a bit different, but yeah, it's mostly in the mind (or soul, if you prefer) of the singer. Johnny Cash couldn't hit the notes that Michael Bolton does, but there's no disputing who was the greater singer.

Could Beethoven have composed if he had been born deaf or fingerless and toeless? Not the same way he did. And no, he probably would not have been as successful in music. But the creative genius of his mind would surely have found some other outlet - although perhaps not one quite as well suited to his particular gifts.

[Shaolin-Do]

C'mon, youve been here long enough to know how KFO works. :)
Id be one proud father.
:eek:

[Shaolin-Do]

"How are we supposed to talk about iron crotch training if we can't even use anatomical terms? "

Do you mean competitive sport iron crotch or reality street iron crotch?
:D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
C'mon, youve been here long enough to know how KFO works. :)
Id be one proud father.
:eek:

I may have been here a while, but I don't routinely post about *****.

[Shaolin-Do]

"I may have been here a while, but I don't routinely post about *****."
lofl. Inappropriate but very funny.
:)

[MasterKiller]

As far as style goes, I consider it to be a bit of a fallacy in a fighting art. There are objective standards of who's a better fighter, see my earlier comments about who's walking away and who's a crumpled heap on the ground. OK, so who is objectively better...a western boxer or a BJJ'er?

[Judge Pen]

If you're calling out my posts as inapproprite then I must have really fallen off the deep end. :D

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
OK, so who is objectively better...a western boxer or a BJJ'er?

Wouldn't they have to fight to know for sure? Is that really objective?

[MasterKiller]

Well, that's my point, but I was waiting for CSN to answer it. The individual has to translate the style into an effective means of defeating an opponent, be it boxing or BJJ. Personal translation of technique into actual application allows for individual flavor of expression. No two boxers fight the same, just as no two Taiji players fight the same. That is personal expression through combat.

[Shaolin-Do]

"OK, so who is objectively better...a western boxer or a BJJ'er?"
ME!
"If you're calling out my posts as inapproprite then I must have really fallen off the deep end."
Its ok, meercer is posting about abnormally large genitalia.(sp?)
I guess its just one of those days...
:eek:
Maybe that N2O Ive been feeding into your offices is starting to take effect.

[norther practitioner]

. No two boxers fight the same, just as no two Taiji players fight the same. That is personal expression through combat.

Yes but the ways that they fight similarly is what makes it a style.

[Fred Sanford]

That was one of the arguments and like Shaolin Do said we have successfully combated the others as well. It really ticks me off when you people bring arguments on here against us that once defeated you make no acknowledgment at all.

You ain't successfully combated sheot, beyotch. That's ok, it's a nice house of lies that's been built.

It really ticks me off when you SDers keep coming on here like little beyotches spouting the same old crap rather than thinking for yourselves.

Don't worry I'll be going to check out the SD school in San Jose one of these days. It should be entertaining.

[MasterKiller]

Yes but the ways that they fight similarly is what makes it a style. True, but that has little to do with combat efficiency.

I discussed this very thing in-depth with Apowyn and Yenhoi last week.

[Shaolin-Do]

"It really ticks me off when you SDers keep coming on here like little beyotches spouting the same old crap rather than thinking for yourselves."

Looks like someone forgot to pick up their ***** before sanford sat down at his desk today.

Edit: ***** = D I L D O.
:eek:

Edit again: "It really ticks me off when you SDers keep coming on here like little beyotches spouting the same old crap rather than thinking for yourselves."

Yeah, you can tell by my posts that I dont think for myself. Im most definately not an individual.

[CaptinPickAxe]

this topic again...





bah

[Shaolin-Do]

Different than yesterday?
..
.....
Nope.
FS is on some kind of trip and thinks that dissing other styles validates his. Whatever.
Is JJ buying kegs tonight? Nothing happening at the land this weekend afterall.

[Fred Sanford]

I don't care that you do shuai chaio now, gimp. I still have the same incredibly low opinion of you, beyotch.

I don't work a little sissy desk job either fool.

[Fred Sanford]

the only styles i don't like are the imaginary ones. everything else is cool.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford

I don't work a little sissy desk job either fool.

My guess is he is a cop that enjoys the position of authority it grants him. :rolleyes:

[Shaolin-Do]

"I don't care that you do shuai chaio now, gimp. I still have the same incredibly low opinion of you, beyotch. "

Aww, joenobody from across the land of internet doesnt like me. I feel so invalidated.

"I don't work a little sissy desk job either fool."

If Im the fool how did I land such a good job? fool. Id make ignorant assumptions as if I knew you, but thats just it. keyword -Ignorant.

[Fred Sanford]

If Im the fool how did I land such a good job? fool. Id make ignorant assumptions as if I knew you, but thats just it. keyword -Ignorant.

ok drug addict, LOL

[Fred Sanford]

My guess is he is a cop that enjoys the position of authority it grants him.

hmm good idea, which town do you live in? I'll move there and be a cop. Maybe I'd get the chance to club you like a baby seal.:cool:

[Shaolin-Do]

If you drink your just as much one as I am.
:eek:
:eek:
:eek:

Herb is hardly what Id consider a drug however... or at least categorize it any worse than ridilin.

Edit: Im sorry. I was wrong. You must be perfect... (apart from the increadibly overstuffed ego and apparent inferiority complex.)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
If you drink your just as much one as I am.
Herb is hardly what Id consider a drug however... or at least categorize it any worse than ridilin. Ritalin is a controlled substance because, while it calms kids down, it has the opposite effect on adults. It's basically speed.

[Fred Sanford]

Herb is hardly what Id consider a drug however... or at least categorize it any worse than ridilin.

ok, as long as YOU don't consider it to be a drug. that's one way to justify it to yourself as you hit the bong 3 times a day.

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, but you don't have a prescription...


Word, MK, I know, I was just bringing that up to show that to a certain extent they play on each other.

[Shaolin-Do]

"It's basically speed."
Erm... its an amphetamine. it IS speed. :eek:

"ok, as long as YOU don't consider it to be a drug. that's one way to justify it to yourself as you hit the bong 3 times a day."

Whatever whatever. Im done arguing with you. Have a nice weekend.
:cool:

[CaptinPickAxe]

I see alcohol as more of a drug than Marijuana. Millions of People world wide abuse with no remorse. It has worse side effects, such as liver cancer. How many pot heads die of cancer? How many doctors prescribe marijuana to cancer patients for pain?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford


hmm good idea, which town do you live in? I'll move there and be a cop. Maybe I'd get the chance to club you like a baby seal.:cool:



42 USC section 1983

I'd bet you've heard of that before.

[Water Dragon]

I just wanted to take a moment and congratulate everyone for contributing to the gayest thread I have ever seen. And that's quite an accomplishment considering where we are.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
How many pot heads die of cancer? How many doctors prescribe marijuana to cancer patients for pain?

By this time, they already have cancer so it doesn't matter.

[Shaolin-Do]

"By this time, they already have cancer so it doesn't matter."
Eh?
Is pointing out medicinal qualities of marijuana.
It does all kinds of wonderful things. Im not gonna list them all here tho... Take too long.

"I just wanted to take a moment and congratulate everyone for contributing to the gayest thread I have ever seen. And that's quite an accomplishment considering where we are."

*whistle whistle clap clap clap*

[CaptinPickAxe]

marijuana has never been proven to cause cancer.
matter of fact: When you quit smoking weed, you cough up all most of the reisen in your lungs. Tar stays in your lungs for life and can cause cancer...

[Shaolin-Do]

I took a crap that looked like nixon today. Maybe I should send a picture in to guiness.

[Fred Sanford]

13 USC section 1983

yawn.:rolleyes:

title 13? Census? exciting.

Oh and by the way, I'm not a cop.

[MasterKiller]

OK, WTF is 13 USC section 1983?

[Judge Pen]

Well you can tell I'm not a civil rights lawyer, :o

I was referencing a 1983 Civil Rights action. Cops get hit with those for beating up suspects etc.

It was either 13 or 42, but I wasn't going to waste my time and go look it up.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Oh and by the way, I'm not a cop."

Hes a single mom working 2 jobs!
:eek:

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford



Oh and by the way, I'm not a cop.

You've mentioned cuffing people and you have quick access to the U.S.C.A. and you don't work behind a desk. Hmm? a mystery.

[CaptinPickAxe]

UC! UC! everyone watch what you say...big brother is listening...

[Chang Style Novice]

Sweet merciful Jebus.

Okay, back (barely) on topic - yeah, styles cannot be superior, only fighters, and only on a given day, because the way you test fighting prowess is with a fight. The thing is, fighting prowess rests on measurable, objective attributes: who hits harder, who's faster, who's tougher, who's harder to hit, etc. Aesthetics and expression have nothing to do with it. They may exist as a by-product, but an ugly KO is still a KO.

In literature, music, visual arts and so on, expression and aesthetics is the whole point. The success of a piece is determined independently by every viewer and none of them is right or wrong - or maybe they all are (in a tangential point, a work that has no viewers isn't art at all, because the essence of art is communication between the artist and his/her audience.) In this the fine arts* are fundamentally different from martial arts, which as we've all said before, have exactly one purpose with two or three subpurposes - fighting (take out the other guy, defend yourself, maybe defend others.)

* I don't really like the term 'fine' arts because it puts us folks that make 'em on a pedastal we don't deserve. But it's commonly accepted vocab, so I use it.

[Shaolin-Do]

"* I don't really like the term 'fine' arts because it puts us folks that make 'em on a pedastal we don't deserve"

Speak for yourself. As for the rest of you, bow down and worship me for the god I am!
:D
Not really. Im leaving.
Goodbye.

[crazymaddrunk]

If I see one more person call nunchuks a "two-section staff" I'm gonna punch the Dukes of Hazzard fan in the next cubicle just out of principle.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this
:D

From "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu" by Wong Kiew Kit.

It reads:

"At that time carrying a weapon in public was not illegal. But while carrying a 'sweeper' was allowed by law, it was nevertheless very inconvenient because it was a long weapon. Hence, some people shortened the shaft so that the two pieces could be placed together and tucked under clothing. This shortened weapon is called a 'small sweeper'. You will probably recognize the small sweeper as the NUNCHAKU, which is actually the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words meaning 'two-sectional staff'."

Hmmmmmmmm......

[Goldenmane]

GM, does Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming call this weapon a Nunchuku? Or even Numchuku? :p

"When this weapon [cangue staff] was imported to Okinawa, the structure varied slightly, and the two connecting rods were the same length. This new design was called "Nunchaku," which was translated from the sound of the Chinese word "Lian Jia Gun." As mentioned earlier, it was also called "Sweeper" in northern China."

-Direct quote from previously referred to text.

Sorry I didn't get on to this earlier.

[Brad]

Wow, this thread got really long, anyway...


From "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu" by Wong Kiew Kit.

It reads:

"At that time carrying a weapon in public was not illegal. But while carrying a 'sweeper' was allowed by law, it was nevertheless very inconvenient because it was a long weapon. Hence, some people shortened the shaft so that the two pieces could be placed together and tucked under clothing. This shortened weapon is called a 'small sweeper'. You will probably recognize the small sweeper as the NUNCHAKU, which is actually the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words meaning 'two-sectional staff'."

Hmmmmmmmm......
Umm... isn't this the same guy that thought he could move clouds with his chi? :D He may very well be right, but you can't expect people to take what this guy says seriously, lol.

[Radhnoti]

Didn't Goldenmane just reference that Dr. Yang Jwing Ming has the same info?

'Course I've seen people criticize him on these boards as well.
"His tai chi looks like White Crane!" and "Everything he does is tainted by his original art.", I believe it went. :rolleyes:

[crazymaddrunk]

Well, Brad, I have one question for you...when is your book coming out? When were you referred to as master? It's obvious you know more than the Chinese guy quoted. Thanks for your great input, Master Brad.

[crazymaddrunk]

It just goes to show that anyone that may even remotely support ANY claim made by GM Sin would be wrong somehow. The gwailo on this board knows a helluva lot more than any Chinese master.

I'll tell you what, all you tough guys out there. GM Sin is going to be in Lexington Kentucky today, and all around the country throughout the year. Why don't you go challenge him? Better yet, send your sifu to challenge him to back up his claim. If you're not going to do it, shut up. I personally wish you would so you could get squashed like the little idiot you are.

[Brad]

Didn't Goldenmane just reference that Dr. Yang Jwing Ming has the same info?
Well, sorry I missed that post, I replied imediately after reading someone referencing Wong Kiew Kit(who has made very rediculous claims before ;) ) If crazymaddrunk wants to live in a fantasy land where people can control the weather with their chi and learn styles they were never taught then he's free too, lol.


Well, Brad, I have one question for you...when is your book coming out? When were you referred to as master? It's obvious you know more than the Chinese guy quoted. Thanks for your great input, Master Brad.
It's a work in progress ;) Lots of know nothings have books out, Ashida Kim, and many other fake Ninjas... and we all know that writing a book means you instantly know what your talking about :rolleyes: lol, loser.



It just goes to show that anyone that may even remotely support ANY claim made by GM Sin would be wrong somehow. The gwailo on this board knows a helluva lot more than any Chinese master.

Way to be a racist ;)


I'll tell you what, all you tough guys out there. GM Sin is going to be in Lexington Kentucky today, and all around the country throughout the year. Why don't you go challenge him? Better yet, send your sifu to challenge him to back up his claim. If you're not going to do it, shut up. I personally wish you would so you could get squashed like the little idiot you are.
If you want to think I'm an idiot for thinking it's a bad idea to use info from a guy who thinks he has supernatural powers, then go right ahead ;) Being insulted online by an annonymous unstable nut job alchoholic isn't going to cause me to lose any sleep :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by crazymaddrunk
If I see one more person call nunchuks a "two-section staff" I'm gonna punch the Dukes of Hazzard fan in the next cubicle just out of principle.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this
:D

From "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu" by Wong Kiew Kit.

It reads:

"At that time carrying a weapon in public was not illegal. But while carrying a 'sweeper' was allowed by law, it was nevertheless very inconvenient because it was a long weapon. Hence, some people shortened the shaft so that the two pieces could be placed together and tucked under clothing. This shortened weapon is called a 'small sweeper'. You will probably recognize the small sweeper as the NUNCHAKU, which is actually the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words meaning 'two-sectional staff'."

Hmmmmmmmm...... I've never heard that before. Interesting.

Can someone confirm that Nunchaku is the Japanese translation of Chang Xiao Ban?

EDIT---OOOPs....someone already answered that.

[norther practitioner]

The two section staff was also in the chinese weapons of the millenium article a few year back, or something like that..

It did say something about nanchaku or whatever.... You just don't see it too much in cma anymore though.

[Chang Style Novice]

<crocodile dundee>You call that a nunchaka? THIS is a nunchaka!</crocodile dundee>

(Photo of Master George Xu taken from T'ai Chi magazine, Vol. 27 No. 4.)

I think we'd all have to agree that with a difference in scale between the item in the attached photo and one of these (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/50-21.html) it hardly makes sense to say they are the same thing. It's like equating a stiletto switchblade with a cavalry saber.

[Shaolin-Do]

Now those are some big manly nunchakus.
:D
Id actually really like to see some applications of the 2 section staff...

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, now you know "tiger lashes his tail," sorta.

[Shaolin-Do]

Quiet you, or Ill unleash the tiger on your face.
:eek:

[Fu-Pow]

Well I'll add some comments because I believe I was the original one to comment that the Sai was not Chinese in origin.

In fact I conceded the point that some Kung Fu styles do use the Sai ...yes...you are reading that correctly....I WAS WRONG.....they must have some Chinese origin.

However, I am curious how the Chinese styles use the Sai vs. how the Japanese styles use the Sai.

This might vary significantly just as Chinese kung fu differs significanlty from its Japanese offspring.

And I'm curious to compare how Shaolin Do's Sai form looks compared to Chinese and Japanese Sai forms.

As for you Shaolin Doers who attempt to dominate this board and continue to believe that you are learning anything of value.

I say this to you...I pity you more than any thing else.

You are wasting your time (ie your life) and money (ie energy) on something that is dubious.

There is a principle in psychology that when people make a commitment to something they will continue to make that commitment even in the face of overwhelming evidence that their original commmitment was a waste.

They will rationalize it to themselves because they do not want to believe that they wasted their time and energy.

Be sure that you are not guilty of this.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
...
However, I am curious how the Chinese styles use the Sai vs. how the Japanese styles use the Sai.
...


I can give you a bit of insight into how Ngor Chor uses the sai, but I cannot speak for any other style, Chinese or Japanese.

In the Ngor Chor sai, the weapon is basically used like a truncheon. It is a blunt striking tool, and is rarely if ever used for stabbing. In the form I have learned, two sai are used and generally they are treated as a single weapon i.e. two short weapons wielded as a medium/long weapon.

The basic philosophy appears to be one of block and strike, sometimes using the tines to try and trap an opposing weapon. The sai is often reversed in the grip and the shaft used to block along the length of the forearm, again with the outer tines used to catch an opposing weapon, or even an arm.

Hope that helps :)

[Stranger]

I don't know if it has been mentioned (this thread is too long), but the sai is used in many Indonesian and Malaysian styles.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Stranger
I don't know if it has been mentioned (this thread is too long), but the sai is used in many Indonesian and Malaysian styles.

I suspect this may be because of the high population of Southern Chinese immigrants in both these countries.

[Edit] Or possibly because of the influence of the Japanese occupation of both these nations during WWII

[crazymaddrunk]

Once again Fu Pow just runs his mouth like the little b!tch he is. Go run and hide now Fu Pow. Oh yeah, I forgot you won't do that cause you're on a board hiding behind your keyboard. Pansy-azz little c*nt.

Anyway, this is a prime example of why themeecer is totally RIGHT for slamming these guys the way he does. The cowards hide behind the keyboard when it's people like me that has issued the challenge to meet in person, to defend an art I no longer study but believe in. And before you start saying how immature I am by challenging someone, SHUT UP. I don't care to hear it. It's MARTIAL arts, not "be kind yo your neighbor" arts. The problem is we have too many limp-wristed liberal martial artists practicing for the sake of "art", and not COMBAT. No wonder my Hung Gar sifu laughs at the northern guys with their embroidery kicks (not slamming ALL northern stylists here, just the keyboard masters who knows all their is about every martial art out there.) Punks like Chang Style Novice. Hey, why don't you go challenge Master Joe since you live in Austin? Just go into his school and slap him. Of course be prepared to have your azz handed to you girlie.

As far as fine art, I like Hustler and Quentin Tarrantino. I prefer nice, smooth drinks like MadDog 20/20 (orange is my fav).

[Chang Style Novice]

You chose your name well, you mentally unbalanced drug addict.

When did I ever slam shaolin do, moron? Give me a quote, dumbfu(k.

Get the fu(k out of here until you can follow a discussion and form a coherent argument.

[Serpent]

Crazymaddrunk - you are a complete tool.

You slam northern stylists when slamming Fu-Pow, even though he studies Choy Lay Fut. That's a southern style and a real martial art, which is not something that I would expect you to recognise.

You call him a punk for hiding behind a keyboard, then yell challenges. From behind a keyboard.

Then you slam Chang Style Novice who has never said a bad word about your style.

Then you point out that your favourite art is Hustlers, proving for us all (as if we needed the proof) that your intellect doesn't extend beyond staring at pictures of tits.

Dayum, you're an idiot.

[themeecer]

CMD ... every day I like you more and more. Haha To me that is the point of the matter, you no longer study our art yet you still defend it. I like that. I've come to realize that 70% of the flamers I run into on the internet are 14 year old kids and the other 30% are on there just to see if they can make you mad. After some discussions I had after the seminar Sunday I have no doubt in the authenticity of our art, absolutely none. I am started to get tickled with the antics of Fu Pow and bobojoe. I do want to extend my gratitude to these guys and others. They pressed me to do my homework about my art. And now nothing can shake my belief in my art.

[joedoe]

Can I join the mutual admiration club as well? :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer
They pressed me to do my homework about my art. And now nothing can shake my belief in my art.

Just like nothing can shake your belief that the world was made by some supreme being a mere 6,000 years ago? You too are a tool.

;)

[joedoe]

*pulls up deck chair*
I got the beers, can someone bring some popcorn? :D

[Serpent]

I got some beans. Can I have a beer? This won't take long. ;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent
I got some beans. Can I have a beer? This won't take long. ;)

*Hands Serpent a cold Coopers*
No beans for me thanks, they make me f@rt :D

[Serpent]

Good for releasing excess chi.

Coopers, eh? Good choice, mate!

[Fu-Pow]

Crazy mad drunk wrote:


Once again Fu Pow just runs his mouth like the little b!tch he is. Go run and hide now Fu Pow. Oh yeah, I forgot you won't do that cause you're on a board hiding behind your keyboard. Pansy-azz little c*nt.

You challenged me before and I said that I accepted your challenge. Sometimes the art needs to be "cleansed."

Then YOU never responded back.

Name the time and the place.

Trust me, I am no 14 year old kid either.

The meecer wrote:


I am started to get tickled with the antics of Fu Pow and bobojoe. I do want to extend my gratitude to these guys and others. They pressed me to do my homework about my art. And now nothing can shake my belief in my art..

Cool. I'm glad your such a "believer." But like I said I pity you because you are wasting your time. Maybe you won't ever figure that out.

[joedoe]

I am partial to a cloudy ale :)

[Serpent]

Likewise.

*sipping beer*

*looks around*

You thing meecer's punked out already?

[joedoe]

*Grabs a handful of beans*
Dunno. No problem, got plenty of beers.
*f@rts*

[Serpent]

Knew you wouldn't be able to resist the beans.

*sips beer*

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm just enjoying the mental image of crazymaddrunk digging through my old posts trying to find me saying something negative about Shaolin Do. And of course, getting crazier, madder, and drunker as he keeps failing.

edit - keep sipping beer, and you may want to change your avatar to another Mike Judge creation.

http://www.wvah.com/programs/kingofthehill/hankhill.jpg

[Serpent]

Good idea. It's about time for a change!

How do I change the text under my avatar - I can't ifnd the right area now?

[Chang Style Novice]

"edit profile"

[Serpent]

Yep, got it now. Kept looking straight past it. Can't think why.

*sips beer*

[Chang Style Novice]

Not bad, but I think I would have gone with "That boy ain't right.";)

[Serpent]

Or, "Now, Peggy...!"

[Serpent]

But, seeing as I like you, I'll go with your suggestion.

:)

[Chang Style Novice]

You keep doing whatever I say, you'll have people believing we're the same person. Like Old Jong and GDA.

Or have I said too much?

[Serpent]

It's the constant logging in and out that makes it hard.

And I ain't talking about difficult.

[Chang Style Novice]

And with that, I am SO out of here!

[Serpent]

Sweet dreams. ;)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


There is a principle in psychology that when people make a commitment to something they will continue to make that commitment even in the face of overwhelming evidence that their original commmitment was a waste.

They will rationalize it to themselves because they do not want to believe that they wasted their time and energy.

Be sure that you are not guilty of this.

As should you. You have an opinion that SD is a worthless waste of time and energy and you will continue to assert this opinion no matter what. That's fine; I'm not trying to "dominate" this forum. Just really want to learn more about my own art and other CMA styles too.

Props to you for admitting that you were wrong about the sai. You have my respect for saying that even if we disagree about pretty much everything else.

[Fu-Pow]

So CrazyMadDrunk.....

hello.....(echo)

um...


hello....(echo)


Didn't you challenge me?

Where'd you go now, big man? Got cold feet?

I need to buy my plane tickets early so they don't cost so much.

[Brad]

I'd just like to say that saying something is a "complete waste of time" because the teacher is a fraud is a bit extreme. My first teacher was a complete liar and fraud but still managed to teach enough self defence to save a few people in real life situations. There's usually something positive that can be gained even in the worst of situations.

[Judge Pen]

Thanks Brad, but I like "wasting" my time. :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by joedoe


I can give you a bit of insight into how Ngor Chor uses the sai, but I cannot speak for any other style, Chinese or Japanese.

In the Ngor Chor sai, the weapon is basically used like a truncheon. It is a blunt striking tool, and is rarely if ever used for stabbing. In the form I have learned, two sai are used and generally they are treated as a single weapon i.e. two short weapons wielded as a medium/long weapon.

The basic philosophy appears to be one of block and strike, sometimes using the tines to try and trap an opposing weapon. The sai is often reversed in the grip and the shaft used to block along the length of the forearm, again with the outer tines used to catch an opposing weapon, or even an arm.

Hope that helps :)

that's really not different than the SD sai form that I know. The sai in the left hand is always used to block the forearm with the center prong, punch with the butt of the sai and hook and pull with the tines.

The sai in the right hand is flipped from the same position of the left hand to stab and strike with the center prong and then flipped back to block the forearm. It is a very southern form with solid stances and only two low side kicks. I don't know what a Japanese sai kata looks like.

[MasterKiller]

I don't know what a Japanese sai kata looks like. Hopefully, better than the local Karate schools here make it look.

Same goes for the mighty Tonfas.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


that's really not different than the SD sai form that I know. The sai in the left hand is always used to block the forearm with the center prong, punch with the butt of the sai and hook and pull with the tines.

The sai in the right hand is flipped from the same position of the left hand to stab and strike with the center prong and then flipped back to block the forearm. It is a very southern form with solid stances and only two low side kicks. I don't know what a Japanese sai kata looks like.

Sounds like the main difference is that we also flip the left sai on occasion. Didn't you also mention that you guys keep a 3rd sai in the belt so one can be thrown?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by joedoe


Sounds like the main difference is that we also flip the left sai on occasion. Didn't you also mention that you guys keep a 3rd sai in the belt so one can be thrown?

No we don't keep a third sai in our belt, but I only have one sai form. I've seen one other form and they flipped both the right a left sais.

[joedoe]

OK, my bad. I remember someone here talking about using a 3rd sai so that one can be thrown.

[shaolinarab]

well, now that you mention it, whenever i do learn the sai form in the near future i'll keep the 3rd sai on hand.

excellent idea! :p

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Didn't you challenge me?

Where'd you go now, big man? Got cold feet?

I need to buy my plane tickets early so they don't cost so much.
Oh grow up! There is no freakin way you are going to fly across country for a fight. We sound like 4 year olds on here .... "oh yeah ... well, I'm going to come over there and beat you up." If you happen to live in a school that has a SD school, then by all means go in and challenge the teacher. Better yet, GM Sin travels around the country a lot, find him when he is in a city near you and go challenge him. (Now I would fly across country just to see him fight someone) But if you are in an area where you will never have to back up your claims, do us all a favor and keep your comments to yourself.

[MasterKiller]

themeecer, your PM box is full, so I'll post this here:

Are you happy with the weight of the hook swords you got from MAM? They look a little flimsy on the website, and I was really wanting to order a heavy set.

[Shaolin-Do]

Sifu Ryan has a pair of steel tiger hook swords that one of his students had made for him... They weigh a good 3-5 lbs apiece. Pretty heavy. Also has a homemade kwandao that weighs a good 18-20 lbs...

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
themeecer, your PM box is full, so I'll post this here:

Are you happy with the weight of the hook swords you got from MAM? They look a little flimsy on the website, and I was really wanting to order a heavy set.
They are a little flimsy for my taste. But you can sure make them sing when you spin them. The hook part of it is as flimsy as the end of most tai chi swords. I have came close to loosing an eye a few times while just walking with these hoisted on my shoulder. The ends keep flopping around. I will say that the swords look great!! I also like the carrying case, but I wish they would have spent a few cents more to make it a bit bigger ... it is almost impossible to get the hooks in there.

[MasterKiller]

That's what I figured. I hold off until I can get some heavier ones.

[apoweyn]

Fu Pow,


As for you Shaolin Doers who attempt to dominate this board and continue to believe that you are learning anything of value.

Give it a rest. Speaking of things of value, how about adding some to this forum. This constant sniping is just sad. As such an astute observer of human psychology, you still haven't figured out what a waste of time this is? Even if I believed for one second that you had these people's best interest at heart (and I don't), this isn't the way to do it. I wouldn't listen to you with this approach.


I say this to you...I pity you more than any thing else.

Bogus history is bad. But at least these people are happy with their practice. You, you're miserable about someone else's practice. And you pity them?


You are wasting your time (ie your life) and money (ie energy) on something that is dubious.

All hail Fu Pow's inexhaustible altruism. What happened to you dude? I remember you being a good poster.


There is a principle in psychology that when people make a commitment to something they will continue to make that commitment even in the face of overwhelming evidence that their original commmitment was a waste.

They will rationalize it to themselves because they do not want to believe that they wasted their time and energy.

Be sure that you are not guilty of this.

Belief preservation. And rest assured that you're at least as susceptible to it as anyone else here. You've actually convinced yourself that you're worried that these guys are wasting their time and energy. Like you're doing them a favour. And they should be touched by your concern.

Open your eyes chief.


Stuart B.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by themeecer

Oh grow up! There is no freakin way you are going to fly across country for a fight. We sound like 4 year olds on here .... "oh yeah ... well, I'm going to come over there and beat you up." If you happen to live in a school that has a SD school, then by all means go in and challenge the teacher. Better yet, GM Sin travels around the country a lot, find him when he is in a city near you and go challenge him. (Now I would fly across country just to see him fight someone) But if you are in an area where you will never have to back up your claims, do us all a favor and keep your comments to yourself.

How do you know that I woudn't?

There's an old term in Chinese kung fu it's called "cleansing the art."

It's when you publicly challenge people that you believe are frauds.

We need more of that and less bickering on public forums.

If you guys were in my area I'd be there in a second and show you how valuable your karate-do crap is.

[Shaolin-Do]

Good job dodging Ap's post.
Even better job being a useless jerk off.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by apoweyn
Fu Pow,



Give it a rest. Speaking of things of value, how about adding some to this forum. This constant sniping is just sad. As such an astute observer of human psychology, you still haven't figured out what a waste of time this is? Even if I believed for one second that you had these people's best interest at heart (and I don't), this isn't the way to do it. I wouldn't listen to you with this approach.



Bogus history is bad. But at least these people are happy with their practice. You, you're miserable about someone else's practice. And you pity them?



All hail Fu Pow's inexhaustible altruism. What happened to you dude? I remember you being a good poster.



Belief preservation. And rest assured that you're at least as susceptible to it as anyone else here. You've actually convinced yourself that you're worried that these guys are wasting their time and energy. Like you're doing them a favour. And they should be touched by your concern.

Open your eyes chief.


Stuart B.


I really hate it when people interject into an argument and claim the moral high ground. It's so lame. I can't stand hearing this "can't we all just get along rodney king" bull****. This is a discussion forum.

SD and other organizations like it are an affront to real
Chinese kung fu. I find it offensive and so I pull no punches.

You don't like it. Don't read my posts. We have a kill filter on this forum. Learn how to use it.

[Judge Pen]

Next time I'm in Seattle I'll give you a call. :rolleyes:

Nice savior complex you have there. Save me and save kung fu.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Good job dodging Ap's post.
Even better job being a useless *******.

Good job resorting to namecalling. Did it take you all day to think of that?

You need to get out of your little pond dude and realize that there is much more to learn about martial arts than what Mr. Sin The Miyagi has to teach you.

Real kung fu is a never ending treasure of which you have only scratched the surface.

[Shaolin-Do]

"This is a discussion forum."
What have you discussed?
All I see you doing is p!ssing and moaning.

"I really hate it when people interject into an argument and claim the moral high ground."

Translation - I really hate it when people call me out for being the ass that I am.
On the same note, Im in texas.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Next time I'm in Seattle I'll give you a call. :rolleyes:

Nice savior complex you have there. Save me and save kung fu.

Please do.

My hands speak their own "truth."

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Next time I'm in Seattle I'll give you a call. :rolleyes:

Nice savior complex you have there. Save me and save kung fu.

Please do.

My hands speak their own "truth."

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
"This is a discussion forum."
What have you discussed?
All I see you doing is p!ssing and moaning.

"I really hate it when people interject into an argument and claim the moral high ground."

Translation - I really hate it when people call me out for being the ass that I am.
On the same note, Im in texas.

Real translation: I really hate it when people say "I think I'm better than you."

[Shaolin-Do]

"Please do.

My hands speak their own "truth.""

Wow fu pow, that really was intimidating. Mind sending me a fresh pair of boxers?
...

.....

And what style do you claim to study again fu pow?

"Real translation: I am better than you."
roflmao.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
[B

"Real translation: I am better than you."
roflmao. [/B]

Reread my edited post.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


I really hate it when people interject into an argument and claim the moral high ground. It's so lame. I can't stand hearing this "can't we all just get along rodney king" bull****. This is a discussion forum.

You're right, of course. Instead I'll sit back and watch you illustrate the quiet dignity of chinese martial arts.

Arsepuppet.

Oops. I resorted to name calling. Guess I just lost the moral high ground.


SD and other organizations like it are an affront to real
Chinese kung fu. I find it offensive and so I pull no punches.

And I find your behavior a complete embarrassment to martial arts in general.


You don't like it. Don't read my posts. We have a kill filter on this forum. Learn how to use it.

Teach by example. Ignore the presence of SD on this forum and get on with whatever passes for your life. You don't like 'em, don't read their posts. If you insist on reading their posts and responding to them, don't whine about it when someone calls you on it.


Stuart B.

p.s.


My hands speak their own "truth."

I can only pray that's the cheesiest thing I hear all day.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by apoweyn


You're right, of course. Instead I'll sit back and watch you illustrate the quiet dignity of chinese martial arts.

Arsepuppet.

Oops. I resorted to name calling. Guess I just lost the moral high ground.



And I find your behavior a complete embarrassment to martial arts in general.



Teach by example. Ignore the presence of SD on this forum and get on with whatever passes for your life. You don't like 'em, don't read their posts. If you insist on reading their posts and responding to them, don't whine about it when someone calls you on it.


Stuart B.

Dude, go watch your David Carradine and meditate you kung fu hippy pacifist.

BTW, you were never on higher moral ground. In your own arrogance you just thought you were.

God **** your annoying.

[Shaolin-Do]

May I reiterate for the verbal soldier fu-assplow, what the f*ck style do you study if you even do study kung fu? I bet you used to get beat up in high school by some dude that practices SD or the like. Or still do.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow

Dude, go watch your David Carradine and meditate you kung fu hippy pacifist.

Wow. It's like you've known me my whole life.


BTW, you were never on higher moral ground. In your own arrogance you just thought you were.

You said I was on the moral high ground genius. Try making a flowchart. Sometimes it helps.


God **** your annoying.

YOU'RE annoying. And under the circumstances, I thank you.


Stuart B.

[Shaolin-Do]

Are you worth my time, butt f*ck?
lofl... I guess Fu-pow read his # of posts then mine and erased his post calling me a newbie...
Whatever. Jeez... it ruins my life to be a newbie to an internet forum.
*slaps forehead repeatedly*
This is my last post on this thread for the meantime, its getting too g@y. Ap, Id suggest something similar.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by apoweyn


You said I was on the moral high ground genius. Try making a flowchart. Sometimes it helps.



I really hate it when people interject into an argument and claim the moral high ground. It's so lame. I can't stand hearing this "can't we all just get along rodney king" bull****. This is a discussion forum.

***What part of this didn't you understand Einstein? I wrote you CLAIMED to be on the moral high ground. You never were and you aren't now. Your just a hippy pacifist defender of Shaolin Dohn't.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Are you worth my time, butt f*ck?
lofl... I guess Fu-pow read his # of posts then mine and erased his post calling me a newbie...
Whatever. Jeez... it ruins my life to be a newbie to an internet forum.
*slaps forehead repeatedly*
This is my last post on this thread for the meantime, its getting too g@y. Ap, Id suggest something similar.

Again do you know how to read a profile NEWBIE!!!!

If you do then why are you asking me which style I study?

God****, there are some real morons on here. No wonder you got sucked into Shaolin Dohn't

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


I really hate it when people interject into an argument and claim the moral high ground. It's so lame. I can't stand hearing this "can't we all just get along rodney king" bull****. This is a discussion forum.

***What part of this didn't you understand Einstein? I wrote you CLAIMED to be on the moral high ground. You never were and you aren't now. Your just a hippy pacifist defender of Shaolin Dohn't.

Phew. Try this: Do a search for the first incidence of "moral high ground" in this thread. When it comes up, have a look at the name of the poster. I'm betting it'll look awfully familiar.

And I've been called a lot of things, but never a hippy. Are you sure you know what that word means?


Stuart B.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Phew. Try this: Do a search for the first incidence of "moral high ground" in this thread. When it comes up, have a look at the name of the poster. I'm betting it'll look awfully familiar.

And I've been called a lot of things, but never a hippy. Are you sure you know what that word means?


Stuart B.


You are a complete idiot!!!! I just posted whay I originally wrote!!!!

I'm done, I can't stand incompetence.

As for being a hippy...that's you. You want peace and love and to smell the flowers and have everybody get along.

That was the point of your original post, wasn't it?

Or did you just want to tell me to shut up?

I told you an easy way to get me to shut up.....DON"T READ MY FRICKING POSTS!!!!!

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow



You are a complete idiot!!!! I just posted whay I originally wrote!!!!

I'm done, I can't stand incompetence.

And there was great rejoicing. Yaah.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow



You are a complete idiot!!!! I just posted whay I originally wrote!!!!

I'm done, I can't stand incompetence.

As for being a hippy...that's you. You want peace and love and to smell the flowers and have everybody get along. It's called idealistic.

As long as there are scam artists like Sin The out there it's never gonna happen.

Yeah. Every idealist is a hippy.

So, to review, you've got a book on psychology and a book on the 60s. Excellent.

Have a good weekend.


Stuart B.

[Chang Style Novice]

<Knock knock>

Hi, you guys have the septic tank that needs emptying? I think I took a dump here once myself.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
<Knock knock>

Hi, you guys have the septic tank that needs emptying?

Better late than never, I suppose.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
If you guys were in my area I'd be there in a second and show you how valuable your karate-do crap is.
My comment was that you wouldn't pay the money to fly across country in order to fight.

By the way where are you? Oops just saw ... Seattle. Hmmm

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Yeah. Every idealist is a hippy.

So, to review, you've got a book on psychology and a book on the 60s. Excellent.

Have a good weekend.


Stuart B.


To summarize:

You are a constant "reframer" who needs to "reframe" the thread to look like he's in control.

You are a narcicist who needs to interject into arguments that have nothing to do with him and claim to be more "virtuous" then the people doing the arguing.

You are an idealist who believes that people should always get along even when in the end it is more harmful.

[apoweyn]

Oh, and candlestick maker. I make candles too.

[Chang Style Novice]

<desperate attempt to return to topic and semi-civil discussion>

What I don't get is - why would you throw a sai? I've never handled 'em much myself, but they certainly don't strike me as being made for hucking at someone.

</desperate attempt to return to topic and semi-civil discussion>

[Golden Arms]

Funny how a taoist humanist would spend so much time trying to categorize and assume things about people using the most UN NATURAL form of communication possible..the internet. Fu Pow..Chill out and train man..to each their own :)

[Shaolin-Do]

I thought you dropped that gig to smuggle midgets?

[Chang Style Novice]

Midgets hidden inside candles! Shhh - don't tell anyone.

[MasterKiller]

What I don't get is - why would you throw a sai? I've never handled 'em much myself, but they certainly don't strike me as being made for hucking at someone. Considering their original purpose (used to poke equidistant holes in mulched ground for seeding crops), I don't see what advantage throwing them would have. They aren't exactly sharp.

[shaolinarab]

you're right to ask the question. i was being facetious about keeping a 3rd sai for throwing...but if you think about it, if u really had to I'm sure you can throw it to take someone's eye out, or better yet, if you hit them hard enough in the liver you could probably do some internal liver damage :rolleyes: