How would you fight a Shuai Chiao guy?

[Water Dragon]

Let’s say you’re fighting a Shuai Chiao guy. How would you go about it? What’s your strategy. I’m just kinda curious for obvious reasons. Thanks

[Shaolin-Do]

Id throw him on the ground.
:eek:
Edit: on a more serious note, I keep kicks to below waist only. I know better than to give a SC player my leg. I have pretty good hands too, so Ill box it out as long as I can before getting into the clinch.
That will change with time however... :)

[yenhoi]

First I would try and strike him and then go from there.

I like to throw people too.

:eek:

[Starchaser107]

with a machete and rocks.

[yenhoi]

note.. I have never fought a 'Shuai Chiao guy.'

:D

[Starchaser107]

me neither , but i still stick to my decision.

[norther practitioner]

As I only know a few throws, and even less counters, I'll bring my 9.

I'd try to keep some distance.. box it out, then deal with it when I got thrown.

[Golden Arms]

I would guess its similar to the dog boxer in one of Robert Smiths books. In that, his teacher recommended standing at a distance and throwing rocks...(no joke) hehehhehe

[MasterKiller]

I would wear boxing gloves so I could give him alzheimer's with one punch without breaking my hands.

[fa_jing]

I'd question Chang Tang-Shueng's fighting ability, challenge match record, and then throw out David Lin of New York's name as a reference. This will really upset him, and he'll go into a long explanation of the facts. Then, when he starts winding down his history lesson, I'd just pop up and say that Judo is more effective. By the time Mr. Shuai Chiao is done explaining to me the virtues of Belt-cracking, he'll be so winded that I can push him over with a feather.

:cool:

[Fred Sanford]

knives

[Shaolin-Do]

Belt cracking is bad ass :)

Id really like to meet/see some dog boxing.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
knives

shhhh!

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'd use my Exploding Chi attack to make him spontaneously combust.

[Shaolin-Do]

And then while laughing maniacally, fly away via propulsive flatulence?

[FatherDog]

Pretty much the same way I'd fight anyone else.

I try to tailor my strategy around my strengths and weaknesses, not what I imagine my opponent's to be.

[Chang Style Novice]

Carefully and reluctantly. Or, if at all possible, in class.

[neigung]

Since I train shuai chiao, I'd use shuai chiao. Use what you train, not what you imagine you should use.

[Royal Dragon]

I'd keep my distance wile I felt him out. Then Once I got a feel for him, I'd try to position myself in such a way that would enitice him to go for a throw that leaves his throat open. When he goes for it, then I'd grab his addam's apple as hard as I could, and hang on for dear life, or his eventual suffocation and death, which ever comes first.

[neigung]

Shuai chiao is too brutal to let you keep your distance :D

[Royal Dragon]

What would you do then?

[neigung]

I'm only kidding, man. But like I said, I'd use my shuai chiao.

[Starchaser107]

in that case i'd use YOUR shuai chiao and defeat him

[SevenStar]

my game is infighting and throwing anyway, so naturally, that's what I'd use. If we're getting into specifics, like say, me vs WD, I'd stay with my same game, but use my power more. we both like to sweep, but as he's taller than me, I'd use that to my advantage for pickups and other techniques that work well with a lower center, in addition to the sweeps.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I'd keep my distance wile I felt him out. Then Once I got a feel for him, I'd try to position myself in such a way that would enitice him to go for a throw that leaves his throat open. When he goes for it, then I'd grab his addam's apple as hard as I could, and hang on for dear life, or his eventual suffocation and death, which ever comes first.


Remember, he's a grappler - he wants to close the distance and is adept at doing so. Keeping your distance might prove to be a rough task...

[Royal Dragon]

Remember, he's a grappler - he wants to close the distance and is adept at doing so. Keeping your distance might prove to be a rough task...

Reply]
Yes, that's why I try to make it so that I am in position for a mean assed throat grab when he does. See, I KNOW that's what he's going to do at one point or another. So i'm going to let him do it, only I want it to be on my terms, not his.

[Oso]

Doesn't matter. I play my game. He plays his. Better fighter wins.

[Royal Dragon]

OSO, the clip of you working out odes not show.

[Oso]

crap.

thanks, RD. I purposefully linked to the guys site so he would get whatever credit for the clip but I guess it's gone now.

it was vurry funny.

no, matter. go to my girlfriends site and buy something.:D

[Merryprankster]

Leg attack takedowns. Then I'm not letting him back up.

[Water Dragon]

One quick point. Many times, you're game will change depending on your opponent. If I know I'm fighting a boxer, I will force the clinch very agressively, but if I know I'm fighting a Thia Boxer, I'll try to draw out the roundhouse so I can catch it and end the fight. Even though my technique base is the same, my strategy changes. <-- Playing to MY strengths so that he must play my game.

[Oso]

WD

good point. and I guess in this thread we 'know' he's a SC guy.

but, still, my basic strategy against anyone is

a- don't get hit
b-don't get locked up
c-don't get thrown

d-if, in the process of a,b or c I can

e- hit them
f- lock them
g- throw them

then good on me.

but, maybe that order indicates that I'm a 'counter' fighter in that I don't consider myself fast, so I don't initiate too many attacks but wait and attempt to capitalize on the window left open by their attack.

Are you suggesting that the SC method of combat is so different from any other good grappling method that it requires a different mode of thinking? (honest question)

I've been to a David Lin seminar and was, of course, suitably impressed but wouldn't place it in a separate category beyond "friggin ******* is gonna try and make people butter out of me by smashing me upon the ground.":D

[Water Dragon]

As a general rule, a SC guy wants to use a throw to take you out. I see a fight as follows: Most trained fighters will throw punch kick combos, and then a throw if it's there. I'll use punch-kick to get in and then go for 4-5 throws in a row until you go down.

The weapons are more or less exactly the same, but the way they are used is different. The knockout is not a big deal for me. I would rather jab-cross-shoulder throw then knock you out.

So, how do you stop me from playing my game?

-edit-
Merryprankster has the idea. By using leg attacks, he's avoiding the clinch, which is where I spend the majority of my time. He understands that the dice are in my favor if we fight out of a clinch. Even though he will probably choose to clinch with a boxer. Once he takes me to the ground, I am in his element.

[yenhoi]

Respectfully, I dont think the dice are in your favor when it comes to clinch time and related. SC guys arent the only ones who train the clinch to a great extent.

:)

[Oso]

WD

Understood.

From my POV ( How would YOU fight a SC guy? ) I'm still not particularly worried about his exact methodology. Or, at least not any more worried than I would be against any competent fighter. I won't ever claim to be a badass, but I'm reasonably competent in all ranges and transitioning from one range to the other. So, I won't attempt to stay away from any particular range untill I decide that this particular fighter is better than I am in that range. Then I will of course attempt to stay out of that range and try to figure out in what range I am better than he is.

Is your question "How do you stop someone from hitting you and then throwing you while you are stunned from the strike?"

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Remember, he's a grappler - he wants to close the distance and is adept at doing so. Keeping your distance might prove to be a rough task...

Reply]
Yes, that's why I try to make it so that I am in position for a mean assed throat grab when he does. See, I KNOW that's what he's going to do at one point or another. So i'm going to let him do it, only I want it to be on my terms, not his.

And at the same time you are giving him something to grab. hitting to the throat isn't as easy as many people like to think.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
As a general rule, a SC guy wants to use a throw to take you out. I see a fight as follows: Most trained fighters will throw punch kick combos, and then a throw if it's there. I'll use punch-kick to get in and then go for 4-5 throws in a row until you go down.

The weapons are more or less exactly the same, but the way they are used is different. The knockout is not a big deal for me. I would rather jab-cross-shoulder throw then knock you out.

So, how do you stop me from playing my game?

-edit-
Merryprankster has the idea. By using leg attacks, he's avoiding the clinch, which is where I spend the majority of my time. He understands that the dice are in my favor if we fight out of a clinch. Even though he will probably choose to clinch with a boxer. Once he takes me to the ground, I am in his element.

The clinch is also the element of the wrestler and judoka...

[Merryprankster]

Well Seven, I spend a great deal of time in the clinch. But why take it to his grappling strength, even if I am just as good as he is, if I can take it to his weakness?

[CrippledAvenger]

What about kneeing him in the shin when he goes to sweep you? :D

Speaking of interesting things, WD showed me a variant on the Diagonal Cut that used a throat grip yesterday. Man, was that cool.

[Royal Dragon]

And at the same time you are giving him something to grab. hitting to the throat isn't as easy as many people like to think.

Reply]
If I can touch you, I can get your throat. If NOT, I will force you to protect it, which leaves you open for some of my other favorite tools.

[yenhoi]

Well Seven, I spend a great deal of time in the clinch. But why take it to his grappling strength, even if I am just as good as he is, if I can take it to his weakness?

How can you be sure that this particular sc guy has that weakness? Isent it awfully high risk to deviate from the standard plan because of an "imangined weakness of my opponent."

I mean, if the SC guy figures out that boxing type range and tactics is my weakness, is he now going to try and box me? Probably still try and throw me.

:eek:

[count]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
What about kneeing him in the shin when he goes to sweep you? :D


I think you're joking based on your laughy face, but I wanted to point out that the shin is about the hardest bone in the body and a knee is maybe the easiest area to damage.

Just to keep it topical and play the game, If I'm fighting a shuai chiao specialist, (don't all northern Chinese martial arts use shuai chiao?), I'm going to use a lot of bagua's ko bu/bai bu steps to set up leg locks/traps. Stay on the outside and side gates and use mainly elbow strikes and throws. I'm not going to give you a whole arm or leg to grab on. :eek:

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by count


I think you're joking based on your laughy face, but I wanted to point out that the shin is about the hardest bone in the body and a knee is maybe the easiest area to damage.


Oh, I was joking Count. I was referring to an incident in practice where I took a shin sweep on the knee and gave poor WD a nice bone bruise. I know enough about the Shuai Chiao game now to know that it's not a viable strategy, leg conditioning or no. :D

[count]

that's what I thought. So WaterDragon has soft "girly" shins?
:D

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
And at the same time you are giving him something to grab. hitting to the throat isn't as easy as many people like to think.

Reply]
If I can touch you, I can get your throat. If NOT, I will force you to protect it, which leaves you open for some of my other favorite tools.

I'm not so sure about this. I've been thrown from a throat grab and it's not particularly painful. Unless you can shatter apples in your hand, I don't think merely grabbing someone's throat will end a fight, ala Sonny Chiba.

Furthermore, if someone is close enough to grab me, I'm close enough to lock up with them and start playing for grips. It's hard to even feint for the throat if I have your arms. I'm not saying a throat grab couldn't happen, but you've got to do it before I can grab handles and go for my grips.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by count
that's what I thought. So WaterDragon has soft "girly" shins?
:D

Yup. He must use lotion on them. :D

(Man, I foresee a hard practice coming up on Tuesday from this...)


In his defense though, he's only been working on his shin conditioning for a few weeks, where as I have about two years on him. I'm impressed he still practiced after taking that hit, to be honest.

[Water Dragon]

lol @ my girly shins. You hould come by on Friday night and see me in my wife's pantyhose.

Yen, you are correct, but there are also differences, even in the clinch arts. For example, if I'm fighting a pure BJJ guy, I will most likely dominate the clinch simply due to the training in the two arts.

Against a wrestler, I need to watch the leg attacks. If I get hit, most likely it will be a single, double, or an ankle pick. Also, the wrestler will most likely be fighting crouched over with their legs back so I will probably go for dragging, which is a snap down throw. If it's a Judoka, it really comes down to who is better. If we are fighting, I will concentrate on using strikes to set up my throws as I will be stronger here vs. The Judoka. I really don't want to be thrown by a Judoka as the throw will most likely flow intoa pin, which means I lose. So I need to be more aggresive and get my throw first.

Of course in real life, 'taint so easy. But this is a discussion.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
And at the same time you are giving him something to grab. hitting to the throat isn't as easy as many people like to think.

Reply]
If I can touch you, I can get your throat. If NOT, I will force you to protect it, which leaves you open for some of my other favorite tools.

You were never shown an elbow/throat tie up, were you? You're basically gonna use one of my favorite grips to defeat me? FYI, go for my throat, you're gonna get "cracked". I think you have seen cracking.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not so sure about this. I've been thrown from a throat grab and it's not particularly painful. Unless you can shatter apples in your hand, I don't think merely grabbing someone's throat will end a fight, ala Sonny Chiba.

Reply]
I have ended real fights with them, as well as made people tapp sparring, and I even escaped a BJJ/ grappeling type guy once by hanging on to his throat with my free hand. You really just have to ahng on really hard till the tap. I don't see how anyone would try to throw you if your grip on their throat is strong enough to pull them down with you. I Hate to site Chung moo quan experiance, but we used to do a drill where we had to grab each other around the wind pipe, press in, and squeez really hard so our fingers almost touch behind it. In the drill, we had to stand there with a stright face or the partner would not be allowed to let go (Some crap about developing invincible calmness or some other such bs). I was rather proficent with the grip, and could grab a guy, encasing his wind pipe in my fingers pretty much at will. If I can touch yiur neck, I can get the grab. If you try to throw me, i'm hanging on to your throat for balance. If I'm in close, I really don't see how your going to dislodge me.


Furthermore, if someone is close enough to grab me, I'm close enough to lock up with them and start playing for grips. It's hard to even feint for the throat if I have your arms. I'm not saying a throat grab couldn't happen, but you've got to do it before I can grab handles and go for my grips..

Reply]
Good point. That's why I'd play with him unitll I see a way to set myself up for an obvious throw, that would leave his throat open for the grab. IF by some chance he sees it comming, and covers, that will leave the side of his head open, and I'm going to start pounding him really hard with heavy hooks to the temple region (Side entry). When he goes to cover those, he has to open up his throat to me. Ideally, I want to be close enough to him to block his elbows close to his body with my chest. If he goes down for my leg, he walks into the throat grab. If he tries to go up to block the hook rainning down on him, he opens up for the throat grab agian. His best bet INMO would be to shoulder check me like ASIA does in his Baiji fight video. I will then just retreat and start the fight over again till I can find another way to fake him out (The shoulder chec works reall good as a defence for my strategie BTW, Got caught with it more than once in the past)

[Royal Dragon]

You were never shown an elbow/throat tie up, were you? You're basically gonna use one of my favorite grips to defeat me? FYI, go for my throat, you're gonna get "cracked". I think you have seen cracking.

Reply]
No, not your method. I have my own methods for exploiting the throat. Remember, I've been at this since about 1988 or so, I've seen alot over the years. Just becasue I didn't learn it from your guys, does not mean I don't know a workable method.

Also, I have seen Cracking. looks scarry to me, so I won't let you do it. Infact, I won't even give you enough position to think about it if at all possible.

[Shaolin-Do]

" and squeez really hard so our fingers almost touch behind it."

Touching the fingers behind the throat forces a piece of skin over the larynx, no more breathing for that person. They die.

"Also, I have seen Cracking. looks scarry to me, so I won't let you do it. Infact, I won't even give you enough position to think about it if at all possible."

What if Im hella lightning quick?
:rolleyes:

[yenhoi]

Yeah, WD. But what are you going to do against a kali guy?

What if you meet that BJJ person that trains standup clinch all day long.

:confused:

[Shaolin-Do]

What if he has a gun?
:eek:
"What if you meet that BJJ person that trains standup clinch all day long"

Then hes probably not any good on the ground. :rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

Touching the fingers behind the throat forces a piece of skin over the larynx, no more breathing for that person. They die.

Reply]
The why are me and KC Elbows still alive? We both went through it at the same CMQ school.

Also, I'd like to know what the Kali guy is going to do against an Escrima guy?

[Shaolin-Do]

"The why are me and KC Elbows still alive? We both went through it at the same CMQ school."
Same reason the moo duk kwan dude lived when he jumped off an 11 story building? :rolleyes:

"Also, I'd like to know what the Kali guy is going to do against an Escrima guy?"

They both get killed by an angry gorilla brandishing a wolf-tooth club.

[Royal Dragon]

He wasn't a Mu Duk Kwan guy, it was Chung Moo Quan. AND he DID jump off an 11 story building and live. What they don't tell you is he jumped off the top of the ac unit to the top of the building. So basically, he actually did jump off the very TOP of the 11 story building, to the roof of it. Or about 3 feet.

But what beats the angry Gorilla with a wolf tooth club?

[neigung]

Just pointing out...
if he (the shuai chiao guy) is good, there won't be a clinch coming from him. Just hits moving straight into throws.

[Merryprankster]

How can you be sure that this particular sc guy has that weakness? Isent it awfully high risk to deviate from the standard plan because of an "imangined weakness of my opponent."

I can't be certain. But if I have to make generalizations based on what I know about my opponent, I will know that he spends most of his time throwing and less defending leg attacks. On the other hand I spent 5 years +3 more attacking with throws and also leg attacks.

We can't be certain of anything. But my game plan doesn't change. Takedown, keep him there. Which takedown I use doesn't really matter to me. I have several to choose from. FWIW, when I say takedown, I place throws in that category.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Well Seven, I spend a great deal of time in the clinch. But why take it to his grappling strength, even if I am just as good as he is, if I can take it to his weakness?

No doubt, I don't disagree with that. My main focus was the "the dice are in my favor..." line, which may not necessarily be true.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
And at the same time you are giving him something to grab. hitting to the throat isn't as easy as many people like to think.

Reply]
If I can touch you, I can get your throat. If NOT, I will force you to protect it, which leaves you open for some of my other favorite tools.

Keeping my chin tucked leaves me open for some of your other tools?

[Royal Dragon]

I'll just enter from the side and ram my thumb under the Chin. Or better yet, yu totally open up the back of the neck for a cupped palm shot. I've only met one man who can take a shot like that wihtout getting at leaste stunned if not knocked out.

also, next time you sparr, try doing it with your chin tightly tucked the ENTIRE time your fighting. In fact, right now stop typing and tightly tuck your chin and go through some fight combos and tell me if you can still do them with enough proficiency to make them work against a guy trying to rip your head off. I submitt it would have the same effect as "Ducking", and you'd get beat.

[SevenStar]

you're not gonna "just enter from the side and ram your thumb under the Chin." that's what the arms are up for. And when you cover, the hands are up far enough that you're not gonna land effective temple shots.

The chin isn't gonna be tucked tightly, it's merely down. And it stays that way. the person is not gonna remain stationary and just sit there and let you reach your thumb under his chin.

[Royal Dragon]

Sure, and I'll stick and follow till I get him. Whats more important than getting the throat grab, is the attempt to keep them on the retreat. Use it to get their center. If their chin is not HARD down, I'll get it. If I can touch you, I can get your throat. It's just a matter of snaking around till I find a good angle.

[SevenStar]

sure... keep following in - right into range for him to clinch you. Why retreat when I can move forward directly or at some angle, which put him closer to the grappling range that he wants to be in anyway?

[Fu-Pau]

I would apply my kung fu to the best of my ability… can't do any more than that… to do any less than that is bad strategy against any opponent?

[Royal Dragon]

See, "I" want to be close in too. It makes it hard for him to keep me from my goals. I'll be controling his lead arm with my chest and elbow, checking his lead leg with my knee and or thigh, crashing into him to remove his balance , grabbing him by the throat and slamming the back of his head into the pavement followed by my allways favorite, and preveiously debated full weighted kneed drop to the loew ribs, thus crushing and killing him.

If I can touch him, I can hurt him.

[Oso]

hmmm, I've never met any martial artist worth his salt that didn't protect his throat. Much less any grapplers who tend to have mousetrap like reflexes where the neck/throat is concerned. While the 'throat shot' is nice to think about, it's right smack in the middle of that defensive triangle. Most of the time I think you would have to beat your way through to it and you could sure be spending energy in a more productive manner.

**edited for typo**

[Black Jack]

The thing is people are talking about the perfect situation, are throat strikes viable, I would say a big yes, they are part of my box of tools, but are they as easy to hit as people think they are........depends on the situation at that specific time and place.

Everything is not a perfect situation, in a non western era gunslinger mano a mano world things just happen, openings are created and closed, a trained martial artist caught in the rush of a unexpected confrontation, wrapped up in grappling with this guy trying to punch his head in, his body responding to fear and extreme stress, may forget to keep his chin tucked, and get snaked in the throat, he may get snaked in the throat if his chin was tucked anyway, you can not keep it protected at all times.

On the other hand the guy trying to strike the throat may find that under these same conditions that this small target is harder to hit dead on when somebody is trying to evade and smash your head in, or that when hit he does not drop as expected, or that your iron claw ready to rip out his throat is harder to maintain on a moving human being, slick with sweat and bucking like he!!.

What if's are kinda lame. It's a very viable strike. Not everyone in the world is a chinese warrior monk, bjj champ, or streetfighter king. Sometimes you are just fighting with a ordinary human being intent on hurting you.

Someday your stuff may work and then someday maybe it won't.

[Oso]

Nicely said.

how's it go?

'no plan ever survives contact with the enemy'

or something like that.

[CrippledAvenger]

"Everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the face"

-Mike Tyson

[Oso]

:D

not that I doubt you CA but that's about the most coherant thing I've ever heard attribute to Iron Mike.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not talking about a "Strike". I'm talking about a close up grab where the hadns snake around the guard. If I go for someone's guard, and controll their elbow, they are pretty much jammed up. Then I can step to the side of them and use my free hand to slide up the back of the shoulder slider to the neck, and around to the throat, where even if the Chin is tucked, I have superior position, and leverage. Heck, at that point, I could even skip the throat grab, and take them down with a Mop. Or, I could step forward into them shift my jambing arm deeper into their guard handdropping it with my wieght and grab the throat then. All I need it to let them close the gap for me, and touch them. Remember, I'm NOT slugging it out with them, I'm all over them, like a Snake that's entangling it's dinner.

If I can touch them, I can hurt them.

[FatherDog]

I'm beginning to wonder if Royal Dragon has ever actually been in a fight.

[brassmonkey]

is that how you fought Shui Chiao players in the past RD?

[brassmonkey]

From what I understand Shui Chiao players strategy will be to hit(black hand) then lock you then throw you. I'd try to avoid getting hit of course and counterpunching/throwing and If and when I do get locked immediately move to try to stretch out the opponent. If all this fails and they try to throw me then its good I have alil balance and can stand on 1 leg to hopefully counter theyre throw. Odds are against a good SC guy I'm hitting the ground.

[Shaolin-Do]

I use my deadly Thunder Kick™.
:eek:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I'm not talking about a "Strike". I'm talking about a close up grab where the hadns snake around the guard. If I go for someone's guard, and controll their elbow, they are pretty much jammed up. Then I can step to the side of them and use my free hand to slide up the back of the shoulder slider to the neck, and around to the throat, where even if the Chin is tucked, I have superior position, and leverage. Heck, at that point, I could even skip the throat grab, and take them down with a Mop. Or, I could step forward into them shift my jambing arm deeper into their guard handdropping it with my wieght and grab the throat then. All I need it to let them close the gap for me, and touch them. Remember, I'm NOT slugging it out with them, I'm all over them, like a Snake that's entangling it's dinner.

1. they're not gonna stand there and let you get to the side of them.

2. you're not gonna have their guard hand tied up for any length of time - there's too much room to move and to strike you.

I'm sorry man, I just don't see that one happening. The next time I'm in chi, you're gonna have to show me that one. Hook up with WD, Fa_jing and CA Next time they meet up and see how they respond to it.

[yenhoi]

Methinks RD has some script he is reading from and should give the rest of us copies.

:rolleyes:

1) Your responses might work, but doubtful the majority of the time. You will not get a throat grab or similar everytime you fight someone who wants to clinch and throw you... and if you do, it will hardly be that 'easy.'

:eek:

[Water Dragon]

heh

[Shaolin-Do]

We grab throats all the time in SC... But no, its not always going to be there for you. So go with other controls in the same area...
:)

[yenhoi]

Sure, but to say "ill deal with all fighters of a certain type with this exact sequence of techniques and sensitivity coreography" is just plain nuts.

:eek:

[Shaolin-Do]

ill deal with all fighters of a certain type with this exact sequence of techniques and sensitivity coreography.

[yenhoi]

;)

[Royal Dragon]

It's not that I have never been in a fight before, it's more like when I have, I got it over with ASAP. If some one comes in and closes the gap, I'll to one of several things. Like kick them really frikin hard in the ribs, or side step it, grab controll of thier lead arm and twist them away from me and hammer them in the head. I have even been known to grab the lead hand, pull them forward, and then side kick them really really hard.

I also, even in freindly sparring, I touch the throat quite often (not with any force, just to show I can), just because "I" find it relatively easy to do. Noone covers it. It's a banned target in vetually all tournaments, so noon feels the need to protect it.

It's an easy target to grab on to. Really, before you start wondering if I have ever fought, you should try working throat shots, and grabs into your sparring. When you do, your going to find it's quite a bit easier than you think. Even if they don't work, the attempt opens up other head shots. Most are banned in tournaments, like the back of the neck and such, but if you get in there and "Get your hands dirty", you will find it's pretty easy on most opponents, ESPECIALLY if they like to clinch.

[SifuAbel]

IF is the middle word in LIFE.

I am not speaking. :D

[Shaolin-Do]

"you should try working throat shots, and grabs into your sparring. When you do,"

I do. :)
Yes, they do work good sometimes, no they dont work good all the time. Depends on who you are fighting, but Id say against an unskilled opponent it would be fairly easy to do... but this thread is about fighting an SC player, who trains in the clinch to protect against things like this... someone who *wants* to be in the clinch more or less...

"IF is the middle word in LIFE."
hehehe... I like that.
;)

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do

I do. :)
Yes, they do work good sometimes, no they dont work good all the time. Depends on who you are fighting, but Id say against an unskilled opponent it would be fairly easy to do...



Well, seeing as WD has been having me do a lot of grip work recently, I've got to say, the throat grip is great for Diagonal Cut. However, getting it is harder than hell.

One thing that I'm quickly learning is that it's all well and good to say what grip you'd use to throw a person, it's another one entirely to get it. If you have a specific grip in mind too, you might pass up better and more successful throwing grips as you go after that one grip.

[KC Elbows]

Fortunately, most shuai chiao guys are pretty much helpless before the lure of fruity girl drinks like shirley temples and such. I'd get them falling down drunk, then just kick their ass.

Actually, I suppose, since most of my training favors clinching range and close strikes and throws, I'd do that. If they were better at that range, I'd keep it outside and use my reach, if I have it. Either way, my goal would be to bring it to them until I am gorged on the wet goodliness of their alcohol sodden liver. Then, I would eat their brains and raise their family as my own.

[Water Dragon]

KC must have been exposed to McShuiChiao.

Real Shuai Chiao men drink

BEER

[KC Elbows]

That does not change my target. Shuai chiao liver is a lot like rum cake, but with more kick and less cake. I'm no fool.

[CrippledAvenger]

Actually, my drinks of choice are whiskey AND beer. Does that mean I'm cross-training?

[Black Jack]

Royal,

The problem with internet communication is that words often do not always 100% describe or convey what specific technique you are writing about. It would be better if you had a pic of the technique or one similar to the technique for those who are calling you out.

To me at first it sounded like you were trying to describe some form of modified standing side choke. Which happens to be one of my favorite standing chokes. I do not know what they call it in jujitsu and I forgot the silat name.

As for fighting in the clinch, well the list is pretty large for those styles other than SC which would advocate fighting in the clinch or close quarter range, the silat system I practice likes to get in very tight to the opponent, so do a lot of other south east asian fighting arts like escrima and its buno elements.

[Kristoffer]

Real Shuai Chiao men drink BEER


:D

[Shaolin-Do]

"Shuai chiao liver is a lot like rum cake, but with more kick and less cake. I'm no fool"
lofl


I drink beer and assorted liquors... Cut down to 1 night a week if that tho... Was drinking way too much.

[Royal Dragon]

Black Jack,
I'm not really talking about a specific technique. In fact, if you re read my posts carefully, you will seeI am talking about a different one every time. Some, maybe all result in some sort of throat attack, others result in some sort of other attack because the throat is not avaliable. If you read between the lines, my main point is about getting and maintaing good position on the opponent. With out that, nothing matters. Once you get the position you want, the techniques play out quite easily. If you don't get it, it's darn near impossible. A good example is the above mentioned "Diaganal cut". If you are in a good position to implement it, you have a throw, a rather devestateing palm strike to the chest, a throat shot, with a minor change a knife edge to the temple, and I can even see and elbow break in there if enterd from the side.

All are very good applications of Diagonal Cut, and all are very easy if you have the positioning. In the case of my original comment, I would just maintain my distance, untill I felt I could get the SC guy to close in in such a way that it would be easy to apply some sort of entry to grap the addam's apple as hard as I could and hang on till he dropped. How exactly I would pull it off is impossible to know. Against SC #1, I'm sure I could do it Against his teacher ?? or even some of his class mates?? I really don't think so.

You see, it's not really the "Style", it's the fighter. One SC guy is NOT going to fight like another, even though they both know pretty much all the same stuff. Some people may be afraid to let them get too close, others may feel it's better to do so so long as it's not on their terms. For example, I could care less if SC #1 gets close to me. I'd prefer it as I have options he's not aware of. maybe SC guy #2, no way. His skills might be scarry to me, and I'm going to have to recognize he has superior skills and experiance than me, not only in SC, but in maybe some other style like Long Fist as well. So he'd not only has my strengths covered, through the Long fist, but he also has my weakneses through the Long Fist.

If I fought him, my strategy would be more of a keep the distance and attempt to draw him into emptyness (in other words, stave it off as long as I can and hope he makes a mistake).

Now, if I'm fighting some SC I have never met, the tactics would be different. I'd have to start by keeping it distant, and preventing him from closing the gap till I can try and get a feel for how good he is. There are ALOT of unknowns. Is he good close up? How would I go about disrupting his root? Have I been taught what I need to do the job, or do I have to invent some thing on the fly right then and there? If so, what?

It's all a really active Chess game. You can't really ask "What would you do against a SC guy", because there are so many infinate variables that it's impossible to answer. The only thing you can honstly say is that you would try to maintian a superior position, wile simutaniously attempt to break their balance & structure so you can unload a can of Wup ass on them.

You can't really get any more specific than that. Talking about range is irrelevent, because , Yeah they are good in close, but so are alot of people. And Yeah, trying to keep your distance is a good Idea, but at some point your going to HAVE to engage, then what? all that depends on the postiion you happen to "Find" your self in, or maybe menuver into, and we really don't know any of those variables till we get in there and rumble.

So basically, I'm going to do my best to get into a superior position, and then do whatever technique is the quickest, and most direct. Often, that's going to be grabbing his addam's apple really really hard. And use some sort striking as a backup in case it does not work.

[Fu-Pau]

Anybody who goes into a fight with a preconceived set of techniques to use, based solely on the known martial art style of the opponent, is deluding themselves

[No_Know]

There seems something to what one called Fu-Pow just put.

Shuai Chiao seems to also besides grappling/throws/takedowns, strikes at least punchway and kick way.

Lets perhaps differentiate wrestling and grappling. Grappling: no strikeing~. Wrestling: Grappling and striking. Until there's a strike~ they are grappling. If one strikes and the other does not, then they one is wrestling, and the other is grappling (until that one strikes).

Given the aggressive presumtion or standard of A Shuia Chiao practitioner, I would let you come to me Royal Dragon. Let? You were comming to me even without my permission. Being aware of trips, strikes pushes/shoves offbalances and vulnerable groin...

Hopefully my appropriatenesses were sufficiently greater than the other person's (people's).