Hand conditioning question.

[rogue]

Figure I'd get some input from you guys, just forgive me if I screw up the terminology. What kind of training do you guys do for your hands when using them in Bil Gee(?) / spear hand techniques?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by rogue
Figure I'd get some input from you guys, just forgive me if I screw up the terminology. What kind of training do you guys do for your hands when using them in Bil Gee(?) / spear hand techniques?
In my lineage---NONE

We do punch the wallbag and the jong, but ideally, we all train to have virgin fingers and thumbs. Must'a been thinking of karate and posted to the wrong list by mistake. :p

Regards,

[anerlich]

In my kwoon we practice bil jee into a bucket of dry sand, and also gripping/clawing drills and fingertip pushups.

Some may post one here saying that fingertip impacts of this type can cause damage due to disrupting chi flow through the finger meridians, but then those people need to consider the similar damage they do banging away at their keyboard.

I've yet to see anyone fall into ill health through such. Otherwise scores of manual workers and musicians would be at risk.

[foolinthedeck]

good points anerlich

[Watchman]

In regards to "finger strikes", I've had a somewhat bitter attitude toward them ever since I broke the ring finger on my left hand on some guy's head a number of years ago. Has anyone asked themselves what the true utility of finger striking is?

Now I'm sure my lack of knowledge and bad attitude comes from missing out on the "super-secret-closed-door-disciple-ultra-death-touch" class where I was supposed to learn how to reach into a grappler's chest and remove his still beating heart with ease, so the whole concept of choosing to poke a guy with your fingers vs. bludgeoning him with your fists/palms escapes me.

It's probably just me, but I much prefer the "dull-thud" effect of hitting someone with my fist over the "ouch-you're-tickling-me" effect of a finger strike. The former is more satisfying than the latter.

Plus, I may just be old and lazy (and have a low tolerance to pain), but I find training my footwork to set up the position of striking with naturally harder material a much better idea than jabbing my fingers into sand or through boards to toughen them up for something they just ain't meant to do.

Besides, the ladies prefer knuckle scars over misshapen fingers.



Discuss.

[kj]

Originally posted by Watchman
Besides, the ladies prefer knuckle scars over misshapen fingers.

Both are extremely attractive. :rolleyes:


Discuss.

Finger pokes are also a good way to break a nail. :p

Regards,
- kj

[Phenix]

Originally posted by rogue
Figure I'd get some input from you guys, just forgive me if I screw up the terminology. What kind of training do you guys do for your hands when using them in Bil Gee(?) / spear hand techniques?

I have tried the " High power eagle claw kung " ;
and if memory serve there is something called "Plug Flower " fingers kung. All these has to train both internally and external condition.

But, if one has a good SLT, one should have a good foundation on the finger jing.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj



Finger pokes are also a good way to break a nail. :p

Regards,
- kj

I remember Wingchun herself fold up the first and second joins of the fingers and jab .. her lazy way to strengthen the biu jee in an instant and still preserve the beatiful nails... :D

[namron]

accuracy:

target striking using a hanging tennis ball or bean bag.

Conditioning:

form work concentrating on fingers packed, pushups on fingertips, fist clench/open hand stretch sets.

[rogue]

Thanks all.
Watchman, we karate folk use the spear hand against softer targets than the head, mostly throat, armpit and stomach.

Now if you had attended the "super-secret-closed-door-disciple-ultra-death-touch" class instead of prancing around a telephone pole playing with Bowie knives while only wearing an official Ted Nuggent Motor City Madman loin cloth you'd know why you want to use your fingers.:p

PS I still owe you that rundown of CDT basics.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Watchman


In regards to "finger strikes", I've had a somewhat bitter attitude toward them ever since I broke the ring finger on my left hand on some guy's head a number of years ago. Has anyone asked themselves what the true utility of finger striking is?
Hi Watchman,

I did hand and finger conditioning in my misspent youth. Still, I didn't find finger pokes to be good for much more than upsetting or distracting my opponents. Gotta' have the proper "jing" as Phenix sez. I've got much better uses for my hands now than as blunt instruments.


Now I'm sure my lack of knowledge and bad attitude comes from missing out on the "super-secret-closed-door-disciple-ultra-death-touch" class where I was supposed to learn how to reach into a grappler's chest and remove his still beating heart with ease, so the whole concept of choosing to poke a guy with your fingers vs. bludgeoning him with your fists/palms escapes me.

I missed that class too. I've heard such anecdotes from friends and forums but have been spared the "evidence".


It's probably just me, but I much prefer the "dull-thud" effect of hitting someone with my fist over the "ouch-you're-tickling-me" effect of a finger strike. The former is more satisfying than the latter.

Yes to the last. I prefer whatever works including slamming my opponents' heads into a metal pole or a wall.


Plus, I may just be old and lazy (and have a low tolerance to pain), but I find training my footwork to set up the position of striking with naturally harder material a much better idea than jabbing my fingers into sand or through boards to toughen them up for something they just ain't meant to do.

It is a much better idea because it might actually work to be in position if needed and therefore worth training time, whereas there is much difference between boards and sand and a resisting opponent.


Besides, the ladies prefer knuckle scars over misshapen fingers.

Thank goodness misshapen fingers are never out of style. :)




I don't understand how your statement was a "troll?" Guess you fooled me. :cool:

Regards,

[rogue]

Did I misunderstand the meaning of Bil Jee? I thought it meant thrusting fingers:confused:

[[Censored]]

What kind of training do you guys do for your hands when using them in Bil Gee(?) / spear hand techniques?

1. Make sure my finger is stronger than the other guy's eyeball;
2. Don't miss!

[yuanfen]

Rogue asks-
Did I misunderstand the meaning of Bil Jee? I thought it meant thrusting fingers
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In part- a misunderstanding. More complex than just thrusting fingers.

[anerlich]

Watchman,

You make some good points. I still think strong fingers are a good idea, but I've never really felt confident enough or had reason to try a darting finger strike to a vital spot. I'd be more confident with the cruder/bulkier but more dependable weapons too.

The need to have someone die in several days due to a carefully planned series of pinpoint strikes to acupuncture points just doesn't come up all that often.

I'm still an adherent of claw techniques to throat, eyes and groin and the thumb to the eye, both of which friends or acquantances of mine have used effectively in defense situations without injury to themselves.

And it's NUGENT. Leave Ted alone :)

[Frank Exchange]

Rogue asks-
>> Did I misunderstand the meaning of Bil Jee? I thought it meant thrusting fingers <<

According to Wong Shun Leung, the original name of the form was not just "Thrusting" or "Pointing" finger, but "Moon Pointing Finger", (also used by Bruce Lee in his famous "Heavenly glory" quote, but with different inference).

His interpretation was that as we are all human, there are bound to be combat situations where we make mistakes, at that point the standard concepts of Wing Chun may no longer apply; we may have to look beyond them (i.e. to the moon) to use concepts that seem to "break the rules", to think outside the box. Bil Jee contains elements that address these issues, longer range strikes i.e. finger jabs, closer range strikes like elbows, concepts to help deal with multiple opponents, etc.

At any rate, Bil Jee contains only a small amount of thrusting finger moves, if we count them up, there are far more elbow strikes than finger jabs.

[TjD]

the importance of finger strikes is HIGHLY overrated IMHO.

if you have to depend on poking someone in the eye, chances are the rest of your WC skills are sorely lacking. in this day and age the fact is we really never should need to jab someones eye out, and supporting that persons family for the rest of your life would definately suck.

why waste your time conditioning your fingers when you could be making your core WC skills better? with better core skills you're more apt to be able to defend yourself when the time arises, and less likely to blind someone for the rest of their life (and probably pay a lot of money in the process).

a successful biu to the eyes or any other useful spot requires a lot of accuracy. you'd be better of strengthening your punches and knocking them out with a strike or two to the head :D (and wont have to worry about breaking your fingers this way either - because this is definately a possibility when your biu misses the eyes and crashes into the forehead or some other hard spot)

just my 2 cents.

[[Censored]]

in this day and age the fact is we really never should need to jab someones eye out

But we have a need to punch someone to death? In our modern age? LOL!

In theory, I appreciate the fingers for their precision, far more than the elbow, palm, fist, etc. You can down someone without even leaving a bruise.

[anerlich]

Myself... I'd be very careful about finger conditioning... and besides, its waaaay down the list of things to train...

Ted's not the most laid back guy in the world, I'll give you that. He's just about deaf from all that high volume guitar and gunshots as well. I admire his energy and enthusiasm and the fact he hasn't mellowed out.

For me, grip strength (which is partially about finger strength) is really important, but then I study grappling as well as pure KF. Even then, it could make the difference, especially if you are fighting someone with a weapon.

TWC has an iron palm/hand conditioning program, so my party line tells me such stuff is in. Opinions vary, but then that's the way of the world and just as well.