How would you defend yourself against a grappler, using Tai Chi..

[8gates]

Just wondering how you guys would handle such a situation.

[Laughing Cow]

9mm bullet at 3 paces. ;)

Are you talking a grappler or a ground grappler(BJJ/Judo/JJJ)??

[8gates]

a ground grappler...

[Repulsive Monkey]

Yield then issue then go home for a cup of tea and clear some space on the mantlepeice for the trophy.

[Felipe Bido]

Easy

If he's a BJJ player, say: "Hey, the guy behind you says that Sakuraba owned the Gracies"...when he turns and double legs empty air, whack him in the head with a Taiji Straight sword-

[Vapour]

If you are taichichun fighter, you are pretty much stand up grappler so grapple standing up where you should be better at than ground grappler. If you go to ground, try to get away and up.

If he is better than you in both ground and stand up grappling, you are his meat.

[Merryprankster]

If you are really interested in using your Tai Chi to defeat a ground-grappler, I suggest finding an experienced ground grappler to play with and work on your Tai Chi principles on the ground. Like anything else it has to be worked at.

If you think like Repulsive Monkey, on the other hand, I would simply suggest tapping, either the opponent or the mat, and acknowledging verbally with either "matte" or "tap" if possible. Ground grapplers usually let go at that point, assuming it's a sparring match.

[Shooter]

Northen Lights Tai Chi's Fast Wrestling set. :p

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Shooter
Northen Lights Tai Chi's Fast Wrestling set. :p

Do you have tapes of this? I would like to see it one day.

[wiz cool c]

In the book Chen Style Taijiquan by Morning Glory Publishers there are many defences against commen takedowns. Flowers out from the bottom of the sea is used to defend a tacle type of attack. Brush nee is used to defend a single leg takedown. There are moves against rear barehugs and such. But I still suggest doing some cross traing. Judo is the perfect complement to tai chi. It focuses on stand up throws with a decent amount of ground stuff just incase you do end up there you arent clueless.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Shooter and Merry Prankster,

Address the question in the only real way that it can be addressed. Each with a slightly different perspective.

Form movements are designed to build and help develop "with guidance from a teacher" a certain perspective in the body. IMHO not to be taken directly and put to use.

The simple answer is to yield, empty and follow, how this is used or what shape it takes really depends on the skill of the grappler and the or the lack of skill by the taiji player.

[Repulsive Monkey]

The irony of your response is that you fail to see that I purposely left out any details in response to the inital question as it wasn't very valid in the first place.
My friend does BBJ and I have never had to tap out with him, ever!
If you don't go down then more than likely the Taiji opponent will take out the BJJ/wrestler etc.

And going down to the ground is no guarantee of success for a wrestler, Taiji can be effective up right or on the ground, it sounds like your experience of Taiji is minimal.

[Merryprankster]

The irony of your response is that you fail to see that I purposely left out any details in response to the inital question as it wasn't very valid in the first place.

Not especially "ironic," but whatever.

He asked how you would use Taiji against a ground grappler. The answer is simply to practice.


My friend does BJJ and I have never had to tap out with him, ever!

Bully for you. You'll learn more if you get tapped though.


If you don't go down then more than likely the Taiji opponent will take out the BJJ/wrestler etc.

What you're really saying is that the fighter who dictates the range of the fight usually wins. That's usually true. No argument.


And going down to the ground is no guarantee of success for a wrestler

True.


Taiji can be effective up right or on the ground

I didn't say it wasn't. I said you have to practice it and you need to do it with somebody who doesn't flail about like an idiot.


it sounds like your experience of Taiji is minimal.

It is.

I cited you because you made what I read to be a smarmy, haughty little response to somebody who asked a legitimate question. It's possible you meant it as a joke, but since you are deeming his question "illegitimate," I suspect you didn't.

Now, clearly if this fellow wants to know SPECIFICALLY how you will handle it then he's barking up the wrong tree. If his intent is to troll, we'll all know soon enough. Taiji teaches you sensitivity according to everybody here--well and good. But you still must practice it in that context--which, clearly you have--and FWIW, good on you for doing so. I don't think it gives you the right to be snotty though.

[Shooter]

Taiji can be effective up right or on the ground, it sounds like your experience of Taiji is minimal.

lol

Nah, RP. I'd say he's got a fairly decent understanding of how TCC is used. He's just taking it in a completely different direction and using it for different purposes.

Let's see. He's got a functional reference to one type of fa-jin in his body-locks and supplex, ward-off in his denial of the opp to come around his guard, pull-down in his 'shrimping', press in his chokes, and roll-back/pull-down in his shucks and throw-bys. Not to mention yielding, neutralizing and sinking - all due to his ability to relax and listen. Grappling just doesn't happen if you can't stick and follow. Submissions and escapes from same don't happen without good silk-reeling, linking and adhering.

Like I said, MP is just applying TCC's physical principles and attributes in a different manner and for different purposes.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


He asked how you would use Taiji against a ground grappler. The answer is simply to practice.



You sure don't know too much, do you merryprankster? Taiji is an INTERNAL system. This means that if you do the long form twice a day, everyday for 10 years, you can beat up pretty much everybody in every situation. That's the beauty of the whole thing. You can beat trained fighters without having to train yourself.

[No_Know]

Cloudhands (small), to deflect arms; also to wrap (whatever appropriateness dictates).

Yielding Push

Pet the Wild Horses Mane either arm, but both will not have targets simultaneously.

Grasping Pearl at Bottom of the Sea? Golden Needle? (the one where its a cat stance, A deflect by the hip and diving fingers forward up to down).

Grasp Sparrow's tail.

Rollback.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


You sure don't know too much, do you merryprankster? Taiji is an INTERNAL system. This means that if you do the long form twice a day, everyday for 10 years, you can beat up pretty much everybody in every situation. That's the beauty of the whole thing. You can beat trained fighters without having to train yourself.

Hmmmm, not sure on that. I thought proper taichichuan curriculum invoved lot of stance work, drilling of individual techniques as well as other auxililary exerise along with performance of long form.

[Chang Style Novice]

My taiji practice has involved lots and lots of standup grappling, done if not quite all the way live then in an amazing simulation. We call it "push hands" and "moving push hands" and do plenty every class and also pretty often when we see each other socially.

So yeah, if the guy is strictly a ground grappler (this seems highly unlikely but whatever) the answer is defintely going to be outwrestle him standing up so you don't have to get in his element, as has been stated and restated on the thread already. And frankly, yield then issue would seem to be a big part of that - but there's about a million ways to yield, depending on context, and same goes for issuing so RPs response really does strike me as vague and jokey as he claims. MPs response is correct, too, since if you aren't used to using your taiji against a determined foe, you are going to get hosed.

All that said, "pulling down" energy is probably a promising way to deal with a leg takedown attempt. Pulling down basically means backing up and directing your opponents already downward energy further downward. Sound like a sprawl? I think maybe it should!

[chingei]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


You sure don't know too much, do you merryprankster? Taiji is an INTERNAL system. This means that if you do the long form twice a day, everyday for 10 years, you can beat up pretty much everybody in every situation. That's the beauty of the whole thing. You can beat trained fighters without having to train yourself.

You were joking, right?

[8gates]

Thank you for all your views on this subject :D
It is interesting how some of you say that Tai Chi can be done on the ground....
I guess it's possible to "root" other parts of your body while you are laying on the ground...

I never thought of using my Tai Chi on the ground... only in standing upright... I guess I better change my perceptions and ways to be more adaptive in my fighting...

I got a somewhat handle on the grapling part from my Aikido training...
In Aikido, we practice SEIZA, a kneeling position which differn't techniques can be used as in the standing position, including numerous movements.

So I guess if I was using Tai Chi only and I got taken down to the ground, I could also use Tai Chi in this fashion...

[Shooter]

8gates, my training partners and I have been competing in BJJ and sub-wrestling competitions using only my school's Tai Chi Fast Wrestling set for quite a few years now. It works.

[norther practitioner]

What taiji has that wrestling set in it? I haven't come across it yet. As far as going to a judo school to do throws, why don't you just do the ones that taiji teaches you.:D

[Vapour]

Originally posted by 8gates
Thank you for all your views on this subject :D
It is interesting how some of you say that Tai Chi can be done on the ground....
I guess it's possible to "root" other parts of your body while you are laying on the ground...

I never thought of using my Tai Chi on the ground... only in standing upright... I guess I better change my perceptions and ways to be more adaptive in my fighting...

I got a somewhat handle on the grapling part from my Aikido training...
In Aikido, we practice SEIZA, a kneeling position which differn't techniques can be used as in the standing position, including numerous movements.

So I guess if I was using Tai Chi only and I got taken down to the ground, I could also use Tai Chi in this fashion...

Even in groundworks you have to know how to root. Just that you don't root through your feet.

In judo or BJJ's it's called "leverage" and "pin". If you learn how to relax then yield as well as to generate power through your leverage, you are there. Most counters in groundwork require yielding.

[bustr]

"What taiji has that wrestling set in it? I haven't come across it yet."

Chang Style.

[taijiquan_student]

I could be wrong, but I think Bruce is talking about the Fast Wrestling set of his own creation, not something from Chang style (or anything else).

[Liokault]

The real question is what the hell is a grappler going to do to defend him self against a Tai Chi guy!!

[Shooter]

taijiquan_student is correct.

Liokault, :D LOL You made my day. back to training....

[Liokault]

The real question is what the hell is a grappler going to do to defend him self against a Tai Chi guy!!

And the answer is .....the grappler would defend him self by hitting the tai chi "fighter" on the head with a rolled up newspaper and saying NO in a load stern voice.

[Ka]

The grappler would say"Dude,that guy over there said your Lineage sucks and that X style lineage could wipe your arse while drinking Olong Cha"
At which point the TJ guy would go over and start a 3 hour debate as to why his style is so good.
Grappler then quietly leaves as he must continue training for next comp.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Ka.

You got the wrong art, this is neither Wing Chun nor any other southern art.
:D
IME TJQ guys don't really worry too much about lineage.

Oh, sorry I forgot we are talking USA MA here, in that case you might be right.
;)

Too many flakes and frauds over there.
:D

[Ka]

Agreed
Anyway its never going to happen,

Grappler wouldn't fight as he's got an injury from last comp.Or training for next one.

TJ guy wouldn't fight as he's above volience,but he will lecture the grappler on how he could have.....,if he had to......,but he wouldn't as he's "Investing in Loss"

No offence to no one no where no how and in no way.:D

[Ka]

In all seriousness,I really don't think these styles would meet unless within a comp setting.And in comp setting you have time to implement strategies according to the rules.MA people IMHO tend not to get into "fights".

More reason why I now beleive in the famous J Will quote
"Street Fights are for pussies,the real challenages are on the Mat"

Be happy all

[jon]

Spandex & Silk

:Shudder:

[Syd]

Spandex & Silk... shudder

ROFLMAO x 10!

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by Vapour


Hmmmm, not sure on that. I thought proper taichichuan curriculum invoved lot of stance work, drilling of individual techniques as well as other auxililary exerise along with performance of long form.

I think you just stepped on troll droppings.

Where's the sarcasm detectors of people these days? =)

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
Yield then issue then go home for a cup of tea and clear some space on the mantlepeice for the trophy. Correct. Taijiquan is truly awesome.

[backbreaker]

I have tried to use heel first stepping in submission wresting to break the grip if someone's got my leg, it is very difficult if they get a good grip in close and I have been picked up in the air before and been side mounted chest to chest. I have defended takedowns in not totally full sparring(maybe 60%, 70%, but actually pretty hard groundwork, hard enough that i have once or twice been picked up but not slammed down ) by sinking all my weight on my front leg going down in a really low stance and putting my back leg as far back as it will go. You will also have to redirect your opponent at some point and end up on top I guess with the knee, this will also invole shifting the weight, if they try to pull out the front full weighted leg you may have to shift to the back leg. Pushing on the head or other places might be useful to get the leg free. Then if they charge forward (been done to me) you have to shift to full front leg which will require alot of power to slide the opponent back and this is what I hope to be able to acheive with heel first stepping, I might have to stomp the foot down. Actually I haven't done any submission wresting in quite a while, maybe more than a year or 2(not serious or sparring really). I have been learning new taiji but my back is hurt now because I don't train enough but try to use too much power. I got alot of training to do, fighting training is very difficult. Anyways I will try to get an arm underneath one of theirs by redircting it and using a shoulder, turn sideways and throw them off to the side in a throw using kicks also ( easy to say), or at least if I don't get inside control use a shoulder anyways and still try to put them in a corner and use a trip.I have also done this. I don't know:confused:

[backbreaker]

I hope my last post doesn't sound too strange. I think a high level Taiji fighter would put a hand on anyone and using all the twisting forces in his body , spiral his energy downwards through the opponent into the ground. The opponent will not be able to find any way to oppose this downwards energy , and all effort will be in vain because all strength exerted by the opponent will be redirected into the downward spiral like a perfect U-turn energy circuit connecting to itself. I have just begun experimenting with this and this is just my opinion , but, a wrestler will try to lift up the opponent but taiji would defeat that with pressing downward with a spiral

[chingei]

:rolleyes:

[Syd]

Chingei ... *LOL*

[Merryprankster]

I think a high level Taiji fighter would put a hand on anyone and using all the twisting forces in his body , spiral his energy downwards through the opponent into the ground.

Usually, wrestlers beat the ****-all-**** out of guys who talk like this.


The opponent will not be able to find any way to oppose this downwards energy

It's called structure. By keeping the spine straight and using hips and legs to lift at the appropriate angle, that downwards energy actually pushes the liftee up, instead of the lifter into the ground, making his job easier. It's like trying to bend rebar.

[backbreaker]

Okay, I'll admit that may have been a rambling late at night about the supremeness of taiji , and I'm not really someone who should be talking about higher level. I do think sinking the stucture down on the opponent would be what's important here , not leaning all your dead body weight , or resting on the opponent . I said high level internal energy which I have felt a little bit a few times. I'm not really talking about taiji where the opponent stiffens up allowing you to use his stiffness to push him. The downward energy of the structure wouldn't have to push the opponent back and downwards, it could throw them behind you and downwards, or even instantly change direction which should be unopposeable. If you're still standing you may have room to make a vertical circle which will flip the opponent. I think you're mostly talking about when they're in really close and basically have a hold of you . I beleive they can still be redirected using weight shifting . Putting all your weight on one leg can be effective for kicks and sweeps but you still need to shift to the other leg.When you have the type of flexible hips on 2 legs that you would have on one sunken leg , you will be pretty hard to get down and you'll have really good balance. I have confidence in taiji techniques effectiveness against grappling and just overall good balance footwork, and stepping . What is rebar? If you're a good grappler I'll listen to you but taiji is also very good and a good teacher can put his structure on you and your ability to get free and move will be compromised. I wouldn't wat to get kicked by a good taiji fighter

[Merryprankster]

I do think sinking the stucture down on the opponent would be what's important here

It is.


not leaning all your dead body weight , or resting on the opponent .

You'd be surprised how similar the first is to what you need to do and sometimes the second is what you have to do until it's safe to move again. Sensitivity and all that.


I'm not really talking about taiji where the opponent stiffens up allowing you to use his stiffness to push him.

Neither am I. I'm talking about the shooter/lifter using his structure to make downward spiral energy actually HELP him lift.


The downward energy of the structure wouldn't have to push the opponent back and downwards,

True.


it could throw them behind you and downwards,

Unlikely, but plausible if the fellow doing the shooting/lifting is inexperienced, plain bad, or made a huge mistake.


even instantly change direction which should be unopposeable.

It would be, but since this violates all known physical laws I'll let it go.


If you're still standing you may have room to make a vertical circle which will flip the opponent.

You could. You'd best be talking about using hands and feet in conjunction however, because your hands are likely not going to be enough. Also depends entirely on how the person responds.


I beleive they can still be redirected using weight shifting

They can. That's exactly what grapplers do to each other.


When you have the type of flexible hips on 2 legs that you would have on one sunken leg , you will be pretty hard to get down and you'll have really good balance.

While attributes matter, you're better off just practicing how to stay on your feet with somebody who knows how to take you off them.


I have confidence in taiji techniques effectiveness against grappling and just overall good balance footwork, and stepping

I've yet to see footwork/stepping defeat a takedown. I'll give you the rest.


What is rebar?

Steel construction material used to reinforce structures.


a good teacher can put his structure on you and your ability to get free and move will be compromised.

Uhhhh.... this is what grappling is. I've no doubt a good taiji teacher can do this things, but it's hardly unique, strangely interesting or special in any way.


I wouldn't wat to get kicked by a good taiji fighter

I'd hate to get run over by a car too :D

[Kaitain(UK)]

Been away for a time, nice to see we haven't got any further on this topic :) Helllo MP :)

Since I train both I hope I have something useful to offer this discussion

Short answer is that Taiji gives you more time than most when you are clinched - unfortunately it is naive to believe that BJJ is only effective on the ground. The clinch and takedown techniques are good (as you would expect) and you will not easily evade them. The advantage Taiji gives is in short range striking and shaking - Taiji is a system designed for close-in destruction (in my own experience and undersatnding). The trick against BJJ (the only grappling system I have experienced/sparred against) is to deliver the strikes before your opponent is able to take you down.

If you have good rooting then you will get the time to strike - but dont try and knee or kick someone doing a single or double leg, you'll probably miss and then you'll be on the floor. My strategy has been to close to clinching range and use the strongest range I have available to me. And sinking into your root and all that is great if you can do it - but I defy the majority of practitioners to be able to do it in a live situation.

Unless you train on the ground as much as a grappler does, and with the range of technique and instruction that a ground-grappling system gives, you will lose. Sure you may have a punchers chance, but it is hard to fight down there against someone who is completely familiar with it. If a guy had only ever trained ground grappling and suggested that he could stand up and outstrike any of you, you'd laugh right? You would have a lot of confidence in your training and experience in that range - so credit the grappler with the same.

Last thing I'd say - in Taiji we deliberately cultivate skills and sensitivity that are inherently developed in other systems. A BJJ practitioner has sensitivity and skill too - don't fall into conceit and believe that they cannot do the things that we can do. They may not do it as well, or with the same understanding (or they may do it better - who knows) - but it is definitely there.

Bottom line - don't dismiss something until you've experienced it. Don't take other people's opinions as gospel. Don't take what someone else can do with your system as proof you can do it.

And to answer the question directly - to defeat a grappler using Taiji, I'd close to clinch and beat the crap out of him with my corners before he could take me down. It might not work but I know enough BJJ to get a good position if I was taken down - everything else I've tried hasn't worked.

Paul/Kaitain

[Merryprankster]

Kaitan, as long as people think they're doing something special we'll never get further on any of these issues. :D Once we recognize that we're all doing the same **** thing, we can start having a meaningful discussion about the technical differences.

I think your strategy is quite sound against somebody who is primarily a ground expert. It's exactly the strategy that the "sprawl and brawl" type fighters use to defeat BJJ types. It's exactly how BJJ types met their downfall initially in the early years of UFC type fighting in the U.S. and is still a problem for many BJJ players with either limited ringfight experience or limited cross training.

Straight BJJ is notorious for its lousy takedowns, and for good reason. They just don't train them as much, in most places.

Having wrestled before BJJ I don't suffer from quite the same technical/experience deficiency re: the standing clinch.

Here's an interesting note--the most successful base style in MMA ringfighting is wrestling. My theory about this is pretty simple--he who dictates the range of the fight is more likely than not going to be the winner. Grappling styles with a strong standing component have the inherent advantage of training constantly for doing exactly that--dictating the range of the encounter.

'Wrestlers' takedown 'strikers' and beat on them, and either stand and trade with submission guys who have less good takedowns or put the submission guys in positions where they can get the snot kicked out of them on the ground. Sure, this requires an awareness of submission attempts, but the fact they do a better job dictating the range of the encounter sure helps.

[backbreaker]

- " Literally' use your hips to absorb , redirect, and then use them to hit and actually throw off the opponent. This will involve rotating the hip joints from left to right I think, and sinking down in the legs . I think you can lean your body angle a bit as long the shoulders/ hips and elbows/knees are basically lined up, but I'm not sure of that.

- If in the opponents gaurd he will probably have your head with one arm , and wrap up one of your arms with his other arm. I think maybe you could use your shoulder to put him in a corner driving up on your feet. I'm not exactly sure every move for this whole scenario but I learned that at some point you can go on your knees push your palms into their ribs or hip creases , trying to break the leg grip. Also that you should generally keep your elbow points into the soft point of the inner thigh right above the knee of the opponent. You also might be able to put your knee in their tailbone and push the weght out to break the grip , maybe even use an arm to unlock the grip. You could also push with your hands on the inside of only one of his legs, forcing him to turn his body to that side and opening a bit of space to put your knee in pinning his leg to the ground. Then you can bring that leg through or hook your other leg to the the ankle and the opponent might go to a half-gaurd , or maybe a leg lock. You also might be able to grab their hips and pull them straight up in the air and kick them in the spine. They might try to grab your ankle or leg lock. Maybe , I'm not too sure on this stuff .
One time I saw a fight where a guy was in an arm bar and he picked the up the guy , slammed him down and knocked him out. I think if you can rotate your shoulder , elbow and wrist joints and if you can have short quick power movements you may possibly get your chest and elbow joint free. I don't think I posses hardly any short shaking power but I think it would be very good if I did. It seems to me if you had that power it would be better than throwing someone with a downward circular throw , or lifting or hanging someone up with an upwards circle. It seems the circle would be inside the body. If more expeirienced people want to correct me or continue this thread it would be interesting.
A merry-go-round could probably not change direction very fast , but a whip generates power that way
What about if you had a standing guilotine choke and you added twisting hips and waist power and sinking . Maybe you could switch to sinking down, then kicking his left leg upwards with your left and bring your left choking arm vertically upwards using your shoulder joint rotating so that your upper arm and forearm make a right angle, and are in line with your hips. Then you rotate your waist , and then your shoulder joint pushing your elbow joint outwards and down into your opponent. I don't know. Probably not if they have their chin into your chest really good , or if they can pass your arm and get a side choke where they use your own shoulder to choke you. Then you would probably need a vertical downwards hip throw and leg trips really good or something kind of like it with exact technique. I'm not sure
How do other more expeirienced people than me in taiji do grappling? How do more experienced Bagua fighters deal with grapplers? What about xingyi?

[backbreaker]

Walk up to your opponent basically close range where he could grab you. Do a Zero or 1 or 2 inch punch and make whatever he throws look like a reactive haymaker . Try to take his punch on your glove and be totally unphased by it , if you have to get hit

[Kaitain(UK)]

with a Guillotine you have to neutralise the arm that's across your throat - if he starts to straighten his back and you haven't neutralised that contact, you'll be out in seconds. Bringing one hand up to pull down on his arm is the standard movement for this in BJJ - sets up a couple of escapes but they end up on the floor in side mount or mount usually...

If he had me in guillotine under his right arm:
Ok - assuming you've not managed to avoid getting into the guillotine in the first place...
If I was just using Taiji I would neutralise the arm arcross my throat by pulling it with my right hand, and then step behind with my left leg so Im side on. Probably try hitting the kidneys with my left hand at the same time as pulling hard with my right to try and get my head out.

Use the hit in the kidneys as a push to get his momentum shifting forwards, keep the grip on with my right hand to try and get an arm extension on to bring his head down so I have the counter rotation all set up so I'd probably right elbow or hook his head from there. Or knee or kick. From the initial escape there's a bunch of stuff available.
------
If you're mounted then you are in the **** tbh - nothing works better than knee elbow escape from here. If you try and strike you're going to get armbarred. Key thing in guard is to stop him getting his knees high under your armpits - you have to keep wriggling, keep digging your elbows inside his thighs to work room and most of all be patient. If he sits up to try and pound on you, you need to buck your hips up to send his weight forwards so he bases out (puts his hands on the ground to stop himself). I wouldn't hold out much hope in all out fighting from here though - watch any MMA match and see how it goes
---
If you're in the guard then you need to get out - do not be lured into thinking you are in a strong striking position - you can get triangle choked or armbarred real quick. Do not think you will be able to pick up and dump someone - they can go to open guard, drop their hips and sweep you to a far worse position. I would actually advise against getting on your feet in their guard until you've worked room by breaking their closed guard (legs hooked behind you) - you do this in the sport by placing a hand in their stomach and then sitting back onto your haunches - watch the armbar though. I think in all out fighting I'd be trying to headbutt them and elbow them to work the space - leaves you prone to triangle but it's all I can see at the moment. Once they are in open guard I would try and get the hell out and standing - just don't panic and rush. It can get very tiring. It isn't a really strong striking position for them either... Just be mindful...
---
Once someone has an armbar on you, you have to neautralise the extension of your elbow joint - you dont have time for anything else... once the arm is straight then the shoulder starts getting messed up - you need to keep your arm bent and turn your body towards them. If you can stop the armbar then you can kick with some power to their head but they will be trying to stamp on your face, and they have your arm anchored so you can't dodge very easily...

anyway - that's enough random crap from me :)

[Merryprankster]

"leaves you prone to triangle but it's all I can see at the moment."

And a host of sweeps. Awareness is, of course, a significant chunk of the battle.

Backbreaker, instead of theorizing, go do it. It's that simple. If you want to figure out how to use what you know on a groundfighter (as distinct from grappler) go DO it.

Also, the elbow on the thigh thing is just uncomfortable. I'll never let go because of that. You break open the guard using your structure own structure.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by backbreaker
- If in the opponents gaurd he will probably have your head with one arm , and wrap up one of your arms with his other arm.

I am never holding the head, per se. I may hold your lapel, if i'm going for chokes or sweeps, but not the head.

I think maybe you could use your shoulder to put him in a corner driving up on your feet. I'm not exactly sure every move for this whole scenario but I learned that at some point you can go on your knees push your palms into their ribs or hip creases , trying to break the leg grip. Also that you should generally keep your elbow points into the soft point of the inner thigh right above the knee of the opponent. You also might be able to put your knee in their tailbone and push the weght out to break the grip , maybe even use an arm to unlock the grip. You could also push with your hands on the inside of only one of his legs, forcing him to turn his body to that side and opening a bit of space to put your knee in pinning his leg to the ground. Then you can bring that leg through or hook your other leg to the the ankle and the opponent might go to a half-gaurd , or maybe a leg lock. You also might be able to grab their hips and pull them straight up in the air and kick them in the spine. They might try to grab your ankle or leg lock. Maybe , I'm not too sure on this stuff .

you are describing a basic guard pass. the elbow in the knees thing is only a nuissance. That alone will not make an experienced grappler let go. As MP said, your structure is what will make his guard open.


on the main forum, I have two threads - the ultimate grappling thread, and the ultimate grappling reloaded thread - check them out.

[backbreaker]

It would seem that in every style the first thing you need is the right structure and body shape. Everything else would need to build off of your basic body structure

[Merryprankster]

Backbreaker,

Exactly! The idea that some arts rely on structure and others don't is insane. Good execution relies on good structure. Bad execution is bad, period.

[Shooter]

Shaking power? Like when you vibrate your leg out of a closed half-guard? Yeah. It's the same kinda power except with TCC it's used for a different purpose. :D

We've already discussed the dreaded fa-jin in another thread. Same differences and similarities.