Quick Quiz

[Ray Pina]

In martial arts everyone talks about "putting all of there power into one point." What does this mean to you?

[old jong]

A little experiment to understand!....

You need a hammer,a marshmallow,a nail and a piece of wood.
Try to hammer the marshmallow through the piece of wood....You see the result?....:rolleyes:

Now try again but this time with the nail.
A lot better eh?...;)

The nail has a lot more concentrated power than the marshmallow.
:D

[Ray Pina]

I think I know what you're trying to say, but the single point that would make your right or wrong you're not too clear about.

Are you the hammer or the nail? (I'll give my understanding in a little while)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by old jong
A little experiment to understand!....

You need a hammer,a marshmallow,a nail and a piece of wood.
Try to hammer the marshmallow through the piece of wood....You see the result?....:rolleyes:

Now try again but this time with the nail.
A lot better eh?...;)

The nail has a lot more concentrated power than the marshmallow.
:D

I think that might have something to do with the intrinsic nature of marshmallow actually. I've been using those new marshmallow nails, and I can't get those freaking things through a board to save my life. Not even the fine point ones.

:)

[Sho]

I reckon it means to apply one's maximal body mass to a technique by proper body mechanics (eg. alignment and rotation).

[Ford Prefect]

Hehehehe. Apo is correct. You could just say a cylindrical peice of metal with a diameter of 1" or so, but that wouldn't sound as good would it?

[Ray Pina]

I think a lot of martial artist look at this sort of thing, and sit in a horse stance, extend their arms with tension and try to focus "all their power" into their vertically held pointer finger ... this of course is impossible! You can't put all of your power into a single point on your body ... you'd collapse, couldn't hold yourself up.

This is how I've been trained to understand it; example:

Place your left hand on the trunk of a car. Now place your right hand on top of that ... now lean into it and start pushing. You are now putting your power into a single point ... ON THE CAR!

So, thinking this way, I put my power to a single point on the other guy ... useful in breaks, locks, pushing, everything.

It's just that we hear sayings in martial arts all the time, like throw a punch. But I see most people pushing their punches ... I know I used to.

[old jong]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist


Are you the hammer or the nail? (I'll give my understanding in a little while)

Too much concentrating on the tools is not a good thing;)

[Starchaser107]

can you define the improper tech' of pushing a punch

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Hehehehe. Apo is correct. You could just say a cylindrical peice of metal with a diameter of 1" or so, but that wouldn't sound as good would it?

...unless you have a very big hammer!...This shows the limitations of hard or external styles,in a way!...;)

[Chang Style Novice]

"In martial arts everyone talks about "putting all of there power into one point." What does this mean to you?"

It means you don't understand the difference between 'there' and 'their.'

(sorry, feeling cranky today)

In the meantime, I agree - the idea here is to move in a way that all of the motion and mass of your body is directed in a single vector and the most extreme point of your body along that vector is used to strike.

Or more simply "lean into the punch, and push into it with your back leg."

(Whew! Corrected my own typo before anyone gave me hell about it!):D

[MasterKiller]

You know what Gertrude Stein said:

There is no there there....

[GeneChing]

There's that old story about the master who breaks a brick with a piece of tofu. I want to say that was a Wong Fei Hung myth, but now I can't remember. Anyway, if you're western, think about nailed marshmellows. If you eastern, be a tofu sifu. :p

[old jong]

Hide a nail inside your marshmallow and you get ....Internal power!....;)

[Shaolin-Do]

"Hide a nail inside your marshmallow and you get ....Internal power"
Or a hideous scrape along the inside of your traechea.
:D

[old jong]

You're too realistic Shaolin-do!...:D

[Shaolin-Do]

Im all about "reality" training.
:cool:

[David Jamieson]

power in the sense of the nail vs the marshmallow can be looked at in less abstract terms.

I found this at another site and well, it pretty much sums up the answer to your question OJ and as well, this is how I look at force and power. I really stay away from mystical half knowledge and tend to have firmer belief in empirical knowledge in regards to alignment, structure, force and power issuance as confined to the human form and it's variables.

Here is the description:


Force was first described by Archimedes. The total (Newtonian) force on a point particle at a certain instant in a specified situation is defined as the rate of change of its momentum:

F = Limit as T goes to zero of (mv - mvo)/T

Where m is the inertial mass of the particle, vo is its initial velocity, v is its final velocity, and T is the time from the initial state to the final state.

Force was so defined in order that its reification would explain the effects of superimposing situations: If in one situation, a force is experienced by a particle, and if in another situation another force is experience by that particle, then in a third situation, which (according to standard physical practice) is taken to be a combination of the two individual situations, the force experienced by the particle will be the vector sum of the individual forces experienced in the first two situations. This superposition of forces, along with the definition of inertial frames and inertial mass, are the empirical content of Newton's laws of motion.

Since force is a vector it can be resolved into components. For example, a 2D force acting in the direction North-East can be split in to two forces along the North and East directions respectively. The vector-sum of these component forces is equal to the original force.

cheers

[Shaolin-Do]

Oh lordy lordy!
KL Speaks again!
:D

[old jong]

Kung Lek
This is a serious thing here!...
Take our marshmallow and accelerate it to an infinite speed and it will gain an infinite mass by doing so.
If we collide our marshmallow with a stationnary object,the infinite mass will instantly convert itself into a x summ of energy depending on the created mass of the marshmallow. A ten kilometers wide marshmallow colliding with our planet at say,30,000 k/hours could have catrastophic effects and could mean the end of life as we know it.:eek:

[David Jamieson]

it is true Oj :D

the thing is, in your model, the marshmallow is absobring the force of the hammer and not taking that vector through the wood because it cannot structurally align to allow for maximum force transferance. The nail can absorb and transform the force being created by the accelerated mass of the hammer, ergo, it passes into the wood.

so, indeed, if you could accelerate the marsmallow to such a speed that it gains immense force, it would penetrate the wood.

the hammer can do this because it's mass is greater and therefor requires less acceleration to produce greater force than an object such as the marshmallow. It is also structural rigid, which means not so much of it's own force will be thrown back into it (the hammer) when it strikes a weaker structure than itself (the wood).

the nail succeeds at transferance because of it's structure and it's rigidity.

the marshmallow fails because it has no structure and no rigidity and cannot transfer the force of the hammer as efficiently as the nail.

now, in some styles of kungfu, it could be deemed that there is no obstacle, only the hammer and the wood, direct force (the accelerated mass of the hammer) applied to an object (the wood) with the only transferance taking place between the force object and the target.

cheers

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
In martial arts everyone talks about "putting all of there power into one point." What does this mean to you?

Usually, it means you're dealing with a beginner. the MA are all about tradeoffs. If I want more power, I give up stability AND defense. If I throw a shot with all my power, I am totally open to counter, and I'm off balance enough that the people I train with will probably hit me with a very hard throw.

As a general rule, I wouldn't hit with more than 70 % power.

And never go all out at someone from the get. That's rude. If you throw everything you got at me like I'm sdome friggin' beginner and I counter you, I'm gonna be insulted. And you're gonna be injured.

You always need to ask someone how good they are ;)

[fa_jing]

To me it means to exert force in a straight line, create body momentum in a straight line, and brace against impact in a straight line. Additionally, there is a target distance where the power is focussed, where the most energy is expended or transferred. Beyond this point the energy mechanism shuts down quickly. Before this point the energy has not reached it's full potential. The combination of the straight line and the preferred distance gives you the single point.

One way to help yourself acheive this, is the visualization technique of concentrating the energy into a single point. When the mind visualizes this, the body assumes the correct mechanic naturally. I think this is something that MA developers found out emperically.

[fa_jing]

I noticed that I haven't accounted for curved trajectory blows, in this case we can consider the straight line that is a tangent to the curve near impact. That is where the energy is directed at or near impact.

[Ray Pina]

We'e broken down into two seperate discussions: some of you are talking about how to strike with more force.

That's simple: MV^2. The velocity is what you want to put your money on. Think of the mass of a buller being thrown into your chest. Now it being fired into your chest. What changed? Velocity.

Now back on target. Putting power into one point is about placing all of your power into one point on your apponant. It is imposible to put all of your power into your fist or finger or foot.

Water Dragon, you are the smartest of all because you took it to it's end, realizing that to do that truly, put it all there, is a huge over commitment and great;y hampers one's ability to change ... unless they are MUCH better than you.

But still, the concept is important to discuss, because it is used all the time in collapsing someone.

[GLW]

This is all basic physics and the marshmallow vs. the nail example actually brings in another issue that is not pertinent - mainly compressible vs. non-compressible objects.

A better example would be throwing a 30 gram dart with a pointy tip vs. throwing a 30 gram piece of balsa wood of basically the same length as the dart but 100 times the diameter of the dart tip.

Force can be viewed in relation to Mass, Velocity, and Time (inversely proportional to Time and directly proportional to Mass and Velocity).

Power is Force divided by Time...so with the same amount of force, to get more power, you must make the duration (Time) smaller - ie. faster....

Focus comes in because you are not REALLY dealing with Force. You are actually dealing with Force per unit area...hence the dart vs. balsa wood example.

If you have a foce of 1000 Newtons for the dart and for the balsa wood...

The dart's area is 1 dA (Dart Area). And the balsa wood's area, as stated earlier is 100 times the diameter = 50 times the radius so 2500*pi dA is the comparative area of the balsa wood...meaning the dart is 1 and the balsa wood is more than 7500 times the area....

So you divide the force by area and you get 1000 Newtons applied to where the dart hits and 1000/7500 or 0.0127 Newtons applied to a single dA (dart area).

From the Dart is focused. The balsa wood is NOT focused. So, you can see that the focused strike delivers more force to the target than the non-focused strike.

Adding in time, applying the entire force over 1 year and you get for the dart: 3.2 x 10**(-5) Newtons per second...not much power. If you apply the force over 0.1 seconds (meaning you could punch 10 times a second), you end up with 2000 Newtons per second....doubling the destructive ability if that is determined by power.

So...focus is a way of making sure your force is applied to the smallest area to do the largest damage. Speed is the way you make that force become a destructive power.

I simplified it a WHOLE lot...but the basics are there.

[Vash]

*ow*

[Ray Pina]

The point I was trying to make is that you don't put all of your power into one point off your hand, you put it on one point on your apponant.

Try to start a topic and it turns to math ... jeez.:eek:

[MasterKiller]

Hey Vash, I really like the way your signature takes up my entire screen! You think you could make it longer to force me to scroll more? I really need the practice!

Thanks in advance!

[fa_jing]

GLW: you should have just included that the force divided over the area, is the pressure. It is the pressure that causes more damage when the force is concentrated in a small point.

E-Fist - but at contact, aren't the two points very close, the end of your fist and the opponent? You are correct, but see how the misconception came about....

[Ray Pina]

I think the misconception is even greater than that though usually, with external guys wearing heavy rings on their arms, standing in horse and tensing their hands in the belief that they are chi-ing up their hands.

I try to go back to common sense and looking at things I am familiar with. To push the car I must put my power and weight onto the car, not into my finger tip ... the other way is like a video game, electrical zap ... but maybe that is possible too. I don't rule anything out. I've just never seen it.

I'm still out on the Death Touch thing. My master down talks it asking how easy is it to hit a certian spot, but than later shows me a few points (little and big ocean) that are quite amazing. When the time's right, I guess.

[David Jamieson]

think the misconception is even greater than that though usually, with external guys wearing heavy rings on their arms, standing in horse and tensing their hands in the belief that they are chi-ing up their hands.

This misconception is yours alone evo :D "chi-ing" up the hands as you say is not the point of training with rings.


I try to go back to common sense and looking at things I am familiar with. To push the car I must put my power and weight onto the car, not into my finger tip.

If you train and build power and learn alignment and compression principles, you actually can move the weight of the car by applying the weight and power of your body through your fingertip.


I'm still out on the Death Touch thing. My master down talks it asking how easy is it to hit a certian spot, but than later shows me a few points (little and big ocean) that are quite amazing.

"death touch" is achieved by rupturing organs. you can achieve this in a few ways, one of which is applied force of course, but there is another way which is manipulation of the organ. Both are hands on methods, those that are highly skilled and intrinssically know location and intimate architecture of the organ they are attacking can precisely manipulate or strike the organ or bowel and cause a rupture. you may or may not experience pain from the attack.

anyway...

[David Jamieson]

oh, and about the "death touch" where one can put it on and take it back. This is also achievable, but it is done with poison usually delivered through a scratch or small needle.

to take it off, apply the antidote, to put it on, a sharp finger nail will do, or a ring with a needle in it.

k, there's your secrets revealed :D

cheers

[GLW]

But...everything is math....