Question for the Judo Guys

[Water Dragon]

I have no idea how I got this idea stuck in my head, but here it is.

How valid do you think it is to use a juji jime as a grip for either Harai Goshi or O Soto Gari?

[fragbot]

I dunno how you got that in your head either. Personally, I can't see it (I almost never get the cross choke from standing anyhow; I've compadres who do it quite nicely standing using a variation called a lariat) but I'd guess it's possible but really **** hard.

Since I've got an open mat tonight, I'll try to remember to play with the idea a bit.

[Water Dragon]

Well, I don't think you would need to get the choke. If you get the grip, The turn for Harai Goshi would lock the choke, and in O Soto, you just do the throw and have the grip to apply the choke as soon as he hits the ground.

I'd try it out myself, but Crippled Avenger is out of town until early next week.

But yeah, I can see how it could work, but I can see how maybe it wouldn't as well.

[Ford Prefect]

Dunno. I think it'd be hard to unbalance and load your opponent using those grips and it'd be hard to sink them and not be countered with your arms in such an ackward position.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Not very valid at all if I understand correctly.

Please correct me if my mental image is wrong!

*You push your opponents arm across his body so that the back of his elbow is now facing you.

You now take a grip on the top and bottom of his sleeve somewhere between the wrist and elbow with your palms facing towards you (generally)

and you now attempt to attack the same side leg as "captured" arm with o soto?

or you use tai sabaki to move in and harai the opposite leg?

Never happen. never say never.. but it's just not practical.


If you want to use a double sleeve grip, you've got to put your body between his trapped arm and him. You are the fulcrum.

EX. I LOVE Yama Arashi. I also use sode tsurikomi ashi.

also ippon seionage is really a 2 on 1 throw, and of course the arm drag is too, but again, you're either between the arm and him or moving the arm so that you can move to capture his side.

[Ford Prefect]

ST,

I actually liked to use a double-sleeve grip like you described while doing osoto gari. I picked it up folkstyle wrestling.

[Water Dragon]

Ooops! I think I messed up my Judo terms again. I'm thinking of the basic, cross collar choke I learned in BJJ.

Here's the picture in my head. I have a standard double lapel grip. I drop weight to jerk you forward and slide my right hand deep inside your right side lapel collar. Left hand just grabs the left lapel. From here, I'm thinking I could turn in for harai goshi (which would lock the choke enough so that you couldn't resist the throw) or yank you forward hard, then reap you with O Soto, then follow you down and lock thechoke.

I don't think getting the grip would be too un-godly difficult. I'm not sure how good of a control you would have though with your arms crossed.

[Ford Prefect]

That's the grip I was talking about, Waterdragon.

[Water Dragon]

I thought you were, Ford. What I'm getting from ST00's post though is a picture of an arm traingle.

[ShaolinTiger00]

WD,

got it. umm.. yeah. again it's not very practical (it's going to be hard as hell to fit infor harai if your arms are deep because you're attempting the choke first) but if they were looser it may work like an odd morote grip assuming you let go of the choke during the kake (execution)


FP, from my description, how could your osoto work from that angle? Where is the off balancing? by pulling his sleeve away from that leg, you almost assuredly made sure that his weight isn't planted on it for the reap.

However both of you were right with the"arm drag" grip into shoulder choke setup, which is really great for an o-soto or just a sub,

ex. from a mma perspective - he pumps the jab, you parry it left and up as you step into him. your right arm swings around his neck trapping his left arm against your shoulder and his neck. you now push towards his back left corner while reaping w/ osoto. now finish the choke on the ground by grabbing your right bicep and moving the right hand against his neck. squeeze elbows together until he passes out..

[Ford Prefect]

This is what I'd do:

One hand gripping sleeve at wrist, the other hand sort of underhooked (my elbow crease semi-locking under his shoulder) grabbing the sleeve on on the tricep.

Step into osoto while dragging him backwards with the grip (like the eccentric portion of a bicep curl) to load up his leg.

From here, depending on conditions I'd kind of twist away from him yanking him with the grips to off-blanace him more and reap his leg or to the above and just plant my leg behind his and go into a body drop.

I picked this up while working the back body drop while freestyle wrestling. Lots of the guys at the club hadn't seen osoto before so I was able to work it in combination and just add grips with the jacket.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
This is what I'd do:

One hand gripping sleeve at wrist, the other hand sort of underhooked (my elbow crease semi-locking under his shoulder) grabbing the sleeve on on the tricep.



Assuming that your right hand has his left wrist, and your left hand has the high grip ** yank him hard into you. This will force him to take a big lunging step forward which puts all the weight on his leg. Since you have a 2 on 1 on his left arm, it will naturally put his weight into the the left leg.

As you do this, he is going to come slamming into you. As he does, let go with your left hand, and place it on his throat. From here, the reap is right there so just take it. What happens is that the reap combines with him slamming into you so that he drops STRAIGHT down off the reap. This is actually my favorite set up. It works very well for me.


** In SC, we don't really use the sleeves as our jackets are short sleeve. To get the same grip, use the wrist bone and the back of his elbow as a natural handle.

[Ford Prefect]

Water,


I hear where you are coming from. I used that a few times myself while doing folkstyle since there isn't a jacket to grab to pull off osoto. Otherwise I'd have my hand on the back of his neck, and just kind of tuck my arm so my forearm was tight against his chest and use that for leverage to set-up for the reap. Sometimes I'd float my hand to his throat and Bang! You get crazy leverage if you can pull it off.

I never tried it in Judo because the guys I trained with were kind of pansies about breaking any rules of tournament judo. I was a breaking blue belt in BJJ and I couldn't use armbars unless I was fighting a black because I was a white belt there.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, Judo guys are wimps in that way ;)

Grab their left wrist with your left hand. snap your hand down to your left hip (like you're doing a Karate punch) circle around their left arm at the elbow like you're going for an overhook. Keep wrapping until the crook of your elbow is now in their elbow joint. You should see the lock from their. Pop them up on their toes and reap them.

Here's a throw I know doesn't exist in Judo. You have a 2 on 1 on their left arm. Your left hand is at the wrist, your right is at the elbow. Pull them to your left side, and at the same time, circle in like you are going for O Goshi. (except you will be side by side with his arm across your chest. Make sure his elbow joint in in your chest.) Now take your right arm and push it against Uke's chest as you reap out bith of his legs. He either goes with the throw, or his arm gets broken. His choice :D

-edit- to get the throw, make sure that his elbow joint is against the shoulder of your right arm. Your shoulder acts as the fulcrum.