BuZhan Dao, Kay Moon Dao, Gai Woon Dao ?

[buddhapalm]

Dear Praying Mantis community,
I am trying to trace the following saber sets that were taught in the 1930's Canton Chin Woo Association. I understand a lot of Chin Woo curriculum was mixed in some styles of Mantis and Eagle claw taught there. Does anyone recognise these saber set names in their Mantis (etc) curriculum, or does anyone know where they are taught nowadays ? The forms are:

Bo Jeen Do/BuZhan Dao(Fighting Steps Saber),
Kay Mun Do (Mystery Gate Saber),
Gai Woon Do (Wrist Unravelling/Releasing Saber)
Dae Tong Do/Ditang Dao (Ground Fighting Saber)

Any help would be most appreciated.

Warmest Regards

Buddhapalm

[Day Tong]

buddhapalm -

Since, the Northern Eagle Claw Kung-Fu system was one of the main styles taught at the Jing Mo Association.

We have a set called, "Day Tong Seung Do" or Ground Double Saber Form. Also in Northern Eagle Claw we have a staff set called, "Kaa Moon Quan" or Odd Door Staff...I'm not sure if this information can help, but I thought I would share it with you.


Sincerely,

Day Tong

[buddhapalm]

Dear DeyTong,
Thank you for your reply. I am trying to see if certain 1930's Canton Chin Woo sets are embedded in the Eagle Claw and Mantis curriculum from Hong Kong Area.

I would be most interested in seeing Kay Moon Kwun. Do you have any idea where this may be demonstrated ? Perhaps some demonstration videos. If you know of any available footage I would love to know.

I am tracing my Kung Fu and there is a big chance my Kung Fu is from 1930's Canton Chin Woo Association, or at least some of it may. The more I see, the more I can piece it together.

For example. On the tape of Sifu Leung Shum teaching Luk Hap Dao. The very beginning 10 moves or so are identical to my Bak Moon Dao. Then the rest differs. My Bak Moon Dao is called Bak Kwa Dao by my Uncles and Great Grandmaster. But it is not the generic BaK Kwa Dao of Chin Woo, it is quite different.

Talk to you soon.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

teleka@pacbell.net

[Day Tong]

Buddhapalm -


The Lok Hop Do form is a pure Northern Eagle Claw sabre form...so if your first ten moments are indentical to our sabre form then you are doing a Northern Eagle Claw sabre form. Maybe the reason that the rest of your sabre form is different from ours is because your grand teachers changed the sabre form to make it fit your system. (just my guess)

I don't have Kaa Moon Quan on video tape, but if you are ever in my area stop by and visit my school and I will demonstrate the form for you.

Do you have Kay Mun Do, Gai Woon Do, Dae Tong Do...etc. on video tape?

If so, would you mind sending me a copy so that I can see if those forms are from the Northern Eagle Claw system?

Talk too you soon!



Sincerely,


Day Tong

[buddhapalm]

Hi Day Tong,

Thanks for your reply.

My saber form Bak Moon Dao (AKA Ba Kwa Dao) was handed to my Sigung from Ma Kin Fung who taught in the 1930's era. Ma Kin Fung learned Ba Kwa Dao from Sun Yu Fung, Saber King of 5 Provinces. This was in Canton Chin Woo where Sun Yu Fung taught after being sent from the North.

The form may be modified from Eagle Claw or it may be modified from the basic Chin Woo Ba Kwa Dao....I am not sure of the exact source of Ba Kwa Dao before Sun Yu Fung tuned it to his tastes, and passed it to my lineage. The other Chin Woo Ba Kwa Dao looks different to mine.

Do you know where Eagle Claw picked up Luk Hap Dao ? Was it from Shandong Luk Hap Kuen system ?

I do not have Kay Mun Do, Gai Woon Do, Dae Tong Do in my system that I know. I would like to see them to see if they are something I have with an altered name. Or if they are different I would like to learn them one day. They are the saber sets of Sun Yu Fung besides Ba Kwa Dao. They must have been absorbed into other systems if Sun Yu Fung taught in Canton Chin Woo. I assume Mantis and Eagle claw may incorporate some of them if they are Chin Woo lineages.

I do have Chun Wang Seurng Sau Dao, Pon Lung Seung Dao and a mysterious Wu Dip Dao Butterly knives that looks strangely northernish.

I would be interested in seeing Kay Moon Quan sometime. Are you of Leung Shum's Eagle Claw line ?

Talk to you soon.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Day Tong]

Buddhapalm,

The Ba Kwa Do form is a Jing Mo Form. If any of your sets are from your great-grandmaster, Sigung Ma Kin Fung then your forms are from the Bak Silum Law Horn system which is the system Sigung Ma Kin Fung taught.

Have you tried to contact Ma Kin Fung's students in Canada to help you with the names of the forms that were taught to your teacher by Ma Kin Fung?

Yes, I'm from the Shum Leung's branch of Ying Jow Pai.


Sincerely,


Day Tong

[buddhapalm]

Hi Day Tong,
So you know about Ma Kin Fung and Sun Yu Fung's Lohan :-)

Yes I am in contact with Master Ma's Son and Student in Canada. They only recognise Ba Gwa Dao and Dey Sat Pole which we call Shaolin Secret Pole with 72 moves. The other 25 or so sets they dont recognize. But Ma Kin Fung taught different curriculum in different eras. So my Sigung, Dea, learned in the 1930's and it may have been different to what Ma taught in Hong Kong and Canada.

All of my Kung Fu may have come from Sun Yu Fung or maybe just a form or two. I am not sure. I am researching deeply into the source.

We have Erlang Kuen, Fa Kuen, Wusong Breaks Manacles, Angry Waves Kuen, Pang Kuen, Fung Mor Kuen, Dai Fut Jeung, Luk Hap Yin Yang Pole, Luk Hap Moy Fa Spear, Three Peaks Trident, Clear Wind Big Knife etc etc.

If any of these sound familiar to you please let me know.

If you know any more information or contacts of Ma Kin Fung I would love to know.

Do you think Sifu Leung Shum may have known my Sigung or Ma Kin Fung in the 1930's /40's Canton Chin Woo ?

Kindest Regards

Buddhapalm

teleka@pacbell.net

[Tak]

Originally posted by buddhapalm
My saber form Bak Moon Dao (AKA Ba Kwa Dao) was handed to my Sigung from Ma Kin Fung who taught in the 1930's era. Ma Kin Fung learned Ba Kwa Dao from Sun Yu Fung, Saber King of 5 Provinces. This was in Canton Chin Woo where Sun Yu Fung taught after being sent from the North.

The form may be modified from Eagle Claw or it may be modified from the basic Chin Woo Ba Kwa Dao....I am not sure of the exact source of Ba Kwa Dao before Sun Yu Fung tuned it to his tastes, and passed it to my lineage. The other Chin Woo Ba Kwa Dao looks different to mine.

I would be interested in seeing Kay Moon Quan sometime. Are you of Leung Shum's Eagle Claw line ?
I also practice northern eagle claw from Leung Shum.

Could you describe or send footage of the first section of your Ba Kwa Dao form?

[ngokfei]

hey buddhapalm

long time no hear, especially since I've not been on the web lately.

Passed on your list of sets to some friends and most have the opinion that they are diverse sets from diverse styles. Seems that the Canton Chin Woo was host to both the 5 northern and 5 southern tigers at one time. Not that they were full time instructors but just taught there on occasion.

Actual styles mentioned are :
Shaolin Lohan
Mi Tsung
Mi Tsung Lohan


Eagle Claw absorbed alot of forms during its association with the Chin Woo through Lau Fat mang. In the beginning the style had very few weapon sets but now there are so many. The only true eagle claw weapon sets mentioned in older manuals are the Lok Hop Cheung, Moi Fa Cheung, Lin Wan Gim and Ching Fung Gim. But again there probably have been some other sets as certain EC teachers had nicknames which strangely are the names of certain weapon sets.

I wouldn't be suprised if sets were chopped up and regrouped with other sets. One example is our chain whip form. 1/2 is what my sifu learned from my Sigung theother 1/2 from a friend of my Sigung. Today the middle part is even omitted as few have the acrobatic abilities to do it. So its quite possible that the Lok Hop Do is from an older form or in your style has been changed to the teachers likings. Hard to say its been a long time. Even being in the school for the last 1 years I've seen changes in forms recently.

That Kay Moon Quan set I believe exists on one of the new years tapes my sifu offers. If not e-mail me privately and we could perhaps trade a care package between us. Personally would like to see a northern Trident and Butterfly set.

later

eric

[buddhapalm]

Hi guys,
Sorry for the long delay, been pretty busy last week.

Tak,
I can describe the beginning of our Bak Moon Dao/Bak Gua Dao:
- Hold saber at start position on left arm
- Salute with right hand
- Bring both arms up and grab saber handle with right hand
- Cut down with saber and hold next to waist on right side
- Cut blade up and bring saber above left sholder pointing blade behind, while back of blade rests on left palm
- Cut blade down again to waist position, pointing forward
- Stomp feet and cut figure 8 in front ending with saber above head pointing forward, resting on left palm, cat stance
- Leap forward in skip step while cutting infront like a wheel, ending in forward horse with saber now cradled on left arm, resting against left arm
- Step back into upright position, feet together while slapping right thigh with right hand
- Stomp feet , turn left into cat stance holding cradled saber infront at eye level with right fist crossing under left wrist (Holding Seven Stars)....................

If my memory serves me correctly it is similar to the opening of Luk Hap Dao of Sifu Leung Shum. I have the tape so I will double check the similarities/differences later.

Ngok Fei,
Long time no talk. Sorry I have been a little inconsistent in communications, so much research so little time :-)

You say Eagle Claw has Luk Hap Cheung and Moi Fa Cheung, Lin Wan Gim and Ching Fung Gim.

In my system we have a Luk Hap Moy Far Cheung !
It starts by holding the spear on the right side and using the right foot to kick the tail of the spear, this moves the tip forward where you proceed to poke to the left. Left hand forward on tip side.............the form also features cutting up in low crosslegged stances from the ground, neck flowers, overhead/back flowers, flowers rolling down left then right arm like opera style, large silk-reeling type blocks followed by pokes etc.

I read somewhere that in Chin Woo the Dai/Jung and Siu Luk Hap Fa Spear sets were considered Lohan. It may have been wrong from their side, or it could be that they were Sun Yu Fungs spear sets with similar names to Luk Hap AND Moy Fa Spear. ????????

Funny that Eagle Claw has a Ching Fung Gim. I have a Ching Fung Dai Dao which is a Kwan Dao form. The Ching Fung in our version means Clear Wind, that implies, so fast you only hear the sound of the wind. I wish I could say tha of my performance :-)))

Have you ever heard of such a name of a Kwan Dao in Eagle Claw ?

May I ask how Master Leung Shum is ? I hope he is well.
Also do you know if it is easy to contact him regarding specific questions of Chin Woo history in the early days. I wonder how much he knew of Sun Yu Fung, or my Sigung/Dai Sigung.

I will e-mail you regarding care packages. And I shall respond on the other posts.

Cheers guys

Buddhapalm

[Tak]

Hmm, sounds very different from ours, and I don't know luk hap dao...oh well.