why so many video game warriors???

[Tigerdragon]

I don't understand it. I see so many people, not just on KFO, but also in person that think that playing games like Tekken, Streetfighter, Soulblade, and so on, will increase their trainig (or be their only training) and knowlege to make them better (or great) martial artists. Are people that stupid, or are they pulling my (our) leg?

Lets be realistic. As cool as some of these games are, and as realistic in motion and movement as some get, they are still GAMES!!!! They are only loosly based in reality. Face it, if you kick someone under the chin hard enough to pick them 2 feet up off ther ground they will be dead before they land. Not to mention playing against a friend or the computer will not train you on how to face off against someone on the street.

Its just gotten to the point of sad that i have to "spar" with friends and others to show them how wrong it is to train yourself with a video game. What is this world comming to?

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind and be ready

[Ish]

I think some computer games can be good training

[honorisc]

You sound upset. You must have a lot of people around you who equate what you are doing with whatever they are doing.

A note to you about bringing up a point. You begin to lose your point when you try to win with extremes or exaggerations. While a person in general is not likely to connect and lift someone two feet off the ground with a chin shot kick. Do you claim that a shot to the chin with a rising kick at an appropriate moment is a bad technique? You also mentioned dead before they land. Notice the time it takles to fall. Not always real time.

Get what you can out of whatever. Whether it is a class at the local Y, your ongoing studies at a school, the flight of a bird, the gait of a horse, the fighting of insects, a fight between a crane a snake and an ape, the last time you got jumpped, or something that shows you combinations that are supposed to work from Arts around the World and their archetype practitioners. Some might think.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Ish]

I only ment good training for the fingers. a good few hours on street fighter strengthens your hands lol

[honorisc]

More expensive than any wall or table one might come across. But usually more entertaining.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Tigerdragon]

First off, yes I used extreams, but that was just to make a point that these games are only "loosly" based in reality. And also, if you were to kick someone hard enough under the chin to pick them up off the ground 2 feet, they very likely would be dead before they landed. Even in real time. A broken neck often results in instant death, depending on the severity of it. And a kick to the chin that's that hard will most likely be enough.

Also, while a kick to the chin may be effective that game absolutly does not teach you how to, or when to throw it. Just like any other manuvure in any of these games. After all, its VERY easy to land that kick in the game (I do play and love Tekken by the way) where as its next to impossible to land it in real life against someone with even halfa$ skill without a good setup to distract or disorentate your oppenent. So my point is, these games are unrealistic. These games have just basic gaurds that block everything no matter where the guard is and where the strike is. They also don't account for someone (especially Wing Chung guys) who will block, trap that hand or foot, then counter. There are a million thing that you can do, or can be done to you that are not in these games.

As far as me being upset, its not because people equate me with these games. I could care less what people think of me or about what I do. Its the people that think they are a martial artist because they have watched a couple of Jet Li movies and played games like Tekken all the time.

In all, its just my oppinion that its not realistic to think these games have another to offer, and just foolish to think that you can become a martial artist without a real sorce of instruction just by playing these games and watching Jet Li, Jackie Chan, or Bruce Lee movies

Just my thoughts.

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind and be ready

[honorisc]

I think that you got your point across clearly...

Now, about these games that "...don't account for someone (especially Wing Chung guys) who will block, trap that hand or foot, then counter."

It might be the punch and kick button at the same time for the same side, or both punch buttons or both kick buttons, but two of these intercepts an attack, then grapples/chin na's the attacker to the ground. Timed with an appropriate side step, an even more elaborate/sensational take-down/grapple/chin na/throw

"There are a million thing that you can do, or can be done to you that are not in these games."

True~, that being understood, also recall that there are tens of things that you can do or that can be done to you that are not what will actually happen~

[Raimondo]

I personally enjoy fighting games, but I don't consider them as training. Although it is fun choosing characters who (albeit loosly) share your fighting style.

[jimmy23]

seriously, do people really do this?


BWWAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA!!!!
my goodness, thats one of the funniest things Ive ever heard! LOL! Too much, too much.

Only a fool hates the truth, but the world is full of fools
Karl Gotch

[IcedSamurai]

I have a reason.

Since they play something like Mortal Kombat, they get hooked onto it. Once they're fighting, they'll think it'll feel like MK fighting. Martial Arts as an entertainment can either boost or screw up your fighting skills.

--------
Within Light, there is Darkness. Within Darkness, there is Light. Within Fear there is Strength.

[JasBourne]

To actually believe that playing a video game enables you to fight is beyond laughable.

Anyone who has absolutely zero control over their body except for their eyes and fingers can play a video game. That means that some poor guy who is in a wheelchair for life, in a bodybrace, can win at Tekken or Streetfighter or Mortal Kombat.

Real combat is about having superb control over your body, and having conditioned it through repetition to react to an opponent's movement, about real-time strategy and tactic in a split-second game where failure is severe pain and/or death. There is no way in hell knowing how to press the right fire button on a game console is going to allow you to properly execute or defend against a round kick. There is no way in hell pushing the jump button allows your leg muscles to actually jump. There are no fireballs and energy bolts in a parkinglot fight. And there is no reset button.

And there is zero chance that getting knocked out in Tekken will prepare you for having someone break your nose, rib, kneecap. None.

I'm an old lady who does kungfu. The real thing, not wushu or taichi. Combat wing chun. I take on guys twice my size and weight every time I train. Sometimes they land me on my a$$, sometimes I land them on theirs. But the idea that someone who trains using video games can hurt me in a fight is pure fantasy. If they don't train in a real fighting environment, they are wanabees only.

[Budokan]

Well said, Jas. Kudos.

K. Mark Hoover

[honorisc]

"Real combat is about having superb control over your body, and having conditioned it through repetition to react to an opponent's movement, about real-time strategy and tactic in a split-second game where failure is severe pain and/or death."

A clear blue sky is blue. The hard ground is hard.

"There is no way in hell knowing how to press the right fire button on a game console is going to allow you to properly execute or defend against a round kick."

We are more than souls, This is not that hell. except, perhaps for that constant block the computer does every time you do a round kick. A person might get the idea that that is the kind of reaction for that type of attack.

"There is no way in hell pushing the jump button allows your leg muscles to actually jump."

Again this is not that hell. And There is slim chanve it would work here either. But it does give you an experience for timing a successful jump.

" There are no fireballs and energy bolts in a parkinglot fight."

There are bullets fired from guns knives an other thrown or throwable objects.

" And there is no reset button."

None, so it 's good to get understanding where you can.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Budokan]

What a dumb frog-headed b*st*rd. You're not worth the price of a 9mm cartridge to get rid of you.

K. Mark Hoover

[David]

I don't like those games but I do watch them sometimes to get an idea of other styles.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[JasBourne]

Sorry, No_Know, doesn't wash.

If I read your responses correctly, what you suggest is that a video game can enhance your reflexes and prepare you mentally for the vicissitudes of confrontation.

To think a thing is not to do a thing.

To know the timing of pressing the jump button on a game does not prepare you to understand or control your own jumping ability. The only thing that will do that for you is to physically train jumping. Your mind may say "jump now, forward and to the right, raising your legs at least a foot and a half off the ground to avoid that leg sweep!", but if your body has not performed such a jump sufficent times to be proficient, your muscles will not respond as desired. The jump in your mind will not ocurr in the real world. The timing of the mind is not the timing of the body.

Again, the idea that watching a video game character perform a specific counter against a specific attack will enhance a person's ability to execute such an attack or counter is in error. In a game, you see things in the third person, from an observer's angle. The environment is stylized, the ambiance and pacing set by the program. The contact is not felt, because the contact is not real. The exchange cannot be experienced, again because it is not real. It is all only barely in the mind, and not at all in the body. To watch someone drive is not the same as driving. Even if the viewpoint was first person, the sensory inputs are drastically limited, the reactions without consequence.

To say that watching a martial arts vid game character allows a person to absorb martial arts skills is the same as saying that playing a football or basketball video game allows people to absorb the skills of those sports. No amount of video gaming will allow a person to throw a perfect endzone spiral, or swish a three-pointer past a 7-foot center. No amount of video gaming will allow you to get past a 300 lb. fullback, or to counter a bodycheck while handling a puck, or to execute a jacknife off a highboard. Only in the physical doing are such skills refined.

And lastly, NOTHING prepares you for the reality of injury. The shock of pain, even the minor pain of a misplaced blow, is enough to engage natural reactions that are to the detriment. The brain, my friend, freezes for a moment. That moment is all an aggressive opponent needs to finish you off. No amount of vid games can train you out of a natural human physiological reaction. Only the physicality of real-world experience can do that.


Don't get me wrong, I love video games, they are loads of fun. But I cannot in good conscience endorse the idea that they are a martial arts training aid. To do so is to fool a group of eager people who could be good martial artists into believing a lie.

[Tigerdragon]

JasBourne,

That right there was everyting I was thinking and then some. I don't think it could have been said any better then that!

Assumption is the mother of tragedy. Just keep and open mind and be ready

[Abstract]

but NoKnow, just when i read something you posted & say, well, he's made some sense, I read something like this & i'm like, is he an IDIOT?

YO man-i will readily admit to being ADDICTED to playing Tekken,(and feenin' like a crackhead for Tekken 4) but in no way shape or form does that prepare you for a REAL fight. I've been in a few, and broke my hand in one. PLaying those games doesn't prepare you for, or teach you the timing & presense of mind AND body to react to or deal with the pain of getting a chair cracked on your back, your nose being broken, kicked in the gonads or sliced with a knife. Ever had someone threaten to shoot you for your jacket? what then? the triple leg-tuck-tuck -flip kick? please, come off it. :p :rolleyes:

[baldmantiz]

play shen mue for dreamcast...even though its a game....there are amazing techniques

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

[honorisc]

"Ever had someone threaten to shoot you for your jacket? "

Yet if the gun hasn't been pulled you might have the notion that if you are close enough to get to him before his hands can get to anywhere that looks accessable you might help keep yourself from facing down the barrel of a gun...It's like in arcade games some big techniques take a few seconds of concentration to pull them off-perhaps like going for your supposed gun. In the arcade games, if you hit them while they are concentrating on finishing the technique you can perhaps stop that technique.~ (that time.)

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[honorisc]

If I read your responses correctly, what you suggest is that a video game can enhance your reflexes and prepare you mentally for the vicissitudes of confrontation."

"To think a thing is not to do a thing." Yet all things done begin in the Mind.


"To know the timing of pressing the jump button on a game does not prepare you to understand or control your own jumping ability."

No, to recognize a low attack beginning then react in time to avoid getting hit, is what is going on.~

" The only thing that will do that for you is to physically train jumping. Your mind may say "jump now, forward and to the right, raising your legs at least a foot and a half off the ground to avoid that leg sweep!", but if your body has not performed such a jump sufficent times to be proficient, your muscles will not respond as desired. The jump in your mind will not ocurr in the real world."

You are the only one of you and I who is inferring that no actuall jumping would be required to Jump.

" The timing of the mind is not the timing of the body."

The mind and body working on the same thing, the mind is first.

"Again, the idea that watching a video game character perform a specific counter against a specific attack will enhance a person's ability to execute such an attack or counter is in error."

Yes that's in error. So get it out of your head and stop saying it. Yet, it would give a notion as to a concept of a possible counter.

" In a game, you see things in the third person, from an observer's angle. "

You are watching two characters interact is why it is third person. That would be the same if you were watching a two-man set in class. To get something from the video game Look at only one character at a time. Then it's like class, and watching one instructor (at a time,) from an "observer's angle".

"The environment is stylized, the ambiance and pacing set by the program. The contact is not felt, because the contact is not real."

Take the technique and go hit a wall.

" The exchange cannot be experienced, again because it is not real. It is all only barely in the mind, and not at all in the body. To watch someone drive is not the same as driving."


Correct~, it is merely gaining understanding experience towards your database when you do drive.

And JasBorne is a female so she is not a male.

" Even if the viewpoint was first person, the sensory inputs are drastically limited, the reactions without consequence."

You can't get broken limbs, bloodied anything nor internal bleeding while observing standard attack patterns by level (upper, middle, low)

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[This message was edited by No_Know on 08-23-01 at 11:03 PM.]

[Abstract]

u need to lay off that crack, man.... :(

[taijiquan_student]

"The real thing, not wushu or taichi." Come, on! Taiji is real. What makes it less real than Wing Chun? Or did you just mean new-age dance taichi?

[Kaitain(UK)]

back it up - you don't know jack about Taiji, else you wouldn't be slagging it off. Seems to be en endemic problem with WC guys on this board.

Go to a Chen or Yang school and push hands with someone who's trained at least half the time you have - then you might wake up and smell the coffee.

Jeez

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[JasBourne]

Gents, I was talking about videogames. If you took offense at my including taichi in 'non-combat' forms along with wushu, that is your prerogative. It has been my experience that the vast majority of taichi practicioners are not studying for combat.

As for push hands, I'm afraid that I personally am not that impressed with what I have seen so far. Perhaps I just need to observe and/or spar with an advanced and skilled practicioner. I am willing to admit that my exposure to taichi has not been expansive.

My opinion on videogames as martial arts training aids stands.

[Kaitain(UK)]

"I'm an old lady who does kungfu. The real thing, not wushu or taichi."

That's what bothered me.

Soz if I was a bit harsh but it really gets up my nose when people make sweeping generalisations about taiji because of the morons who choose to package it as some health-enhancing breath exercise.

I'd recommend looking for a good Chen or Yang taiji school in your area (post on the taijquan board and ask?) and asking to push hands with someone. They may not go for it, and you may batter them - but my experience has been that you will at least find it interesting.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[honorisc]

My comprehension is thatv pushhands is an exercise-ish. There is a certain way it is supposed to go. You can't validly ask a No_Know-er of push hands play to push hands...they wouldn't know what they were supposed to do. With enough skill at pushhands, one could take on people who didn't play T'ai Ch'i Ch'uan (a fight). But that's after one is expert (not having been doing it for years, decades, scores...), Expert.

As far as JasBourne's position on videogames as a tool for martial arts training, please note she avoids the points I mentioned~ and a thing being good for something does not mean that it is supposed to be good for everything, which is how she's addressing it by bringing up silly things as what is being said.

JasBourne addressed her feelings about mental luggage she's carrying, this daqmaged potentially intelligent, discourse.

JasBourne seems to be an on (not Japanese) person, and bust of Good Luck in her training.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Wing Chun has its own pushing hands - I train with a few WC guys and we get a lot out of it. Pushing hands is an exercise but it can be trained to an intensity that is as close to a fight as you want it to be (obviously stress factors don't apply so it is never a replacement). Push hands is an exercise the same way sparring is an exercise.

Jasbourne trains WC - hence my suggestion.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"