What should I do?

[Vapour]

I'm the president of taijiquan society in my university. Our society started as a taichi class in the international society of our university but last year, we decided to make our class as a society activity so we can get extra funding. We done lot of promotion in fresher's week and we got like nearly 50 students in the beginning.

The problem is that we lost these students very fast because we teach taijiquan as a martial arts and fail to meet expectation of people who turn up for our class. At the end of academic year, we had 5-6 people including me and most of them done other martial arts previously. Now, these guys are quite happy with taijiquan but I have to be honest here. There are lot of social aspect to society activities and with this number we totally fail in that aspect. In fact, our class fail to retain quite few who are interested in martial aspect of taijiquan. Cheng Man Ching taichichuan being one of the softest style of taichichuan so not martial enough for some people didn't help.

Now two from last year graduated so we have only three to start this year and we are starting our new class for this academic year in two weeks (Brit uni start from late September). This year, my aim is to retain as many member as possible. My idea is to have two completely separate classes. One class in taichi/qigong class where purpose is to teach the form in shortest amount of time with litte of *real(martial)* taichi with lot of qigong exercise. The other class is sort of martial class where there are lot of physically demanding exercise and drilling of taijiquan pushhand application together with fixed leg competitive pushing hand introduced right from the start. (I think freestyle push hand are too dangerous for beginner).

I know both classes are deviation from the proper taijiquan but I'm thinkng that proper taijiquan practice could be introduced after I get begginer hooked on either aspect of taijiquan first. Have anyone tried this approach. I appreciate any advice.

[PHILBERT]

I have to agree, in my opinion, doing 2 classes might be best. Some people fail to realize Taiji IS A MARTIAL ART and when they go in there, they expect something like Yoga, except not as physically demanding.

When they start learning how to fight using it, they stop and think "This isn't what I wanted". You should try 2 or 3 classes, and put in the catalogs that you have a "Internal only" aspect of it, learning nothing but the health part of Taiji, a "martial only" aspect, learning nothing but application (if possible) and maybe a mix, teaching both the internal part, and the application of it.

Some of those hard core martial artists might only want to learn how to apply Taiji and not be interested in the health aspect, versus those who only want the internal aspect and not the application. Then there will be those who want to learn both the internal, and application of it.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Problem being that you can't really seperate the martial from the health side in TJQ.

They go hand in hand, change the focus and both sides will loose.
;)

[Shooter]

The problem is that we lost these students very fast because we teach taijiquan as a martial arts and fail to meet expectation of people who turn up for our class

Vapour, this has me wondering, how are you structuring the training for your martial classes? What does that type of training entail? Push-hands? Contact hitting, grappling, and throwing?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Might I suggest getting the (the dao of taijiquan) by jou, tsung hwa.
Use this as a text book, base your training and practice from that.

He list some very good ideas and methods for developing certain skill sets. It would also give you an opportunity to show what is different between taiji and other arts.

This is assuming that you your self can meet the basic skills sets that you are trying to teach. On each side of the spectrum people fail, either they can fight and what they do isn’t much different then any thing else, or its incorrect, non functional, in which case it is not usful for anything health or selfdefens.

Really developing the skills are quite demanding, again using the book as a guide provides a good way to talk about and test the theory and practical applications.

[Vapour]

Firstly, it is my instructor who is teaching not me. However, I basically run this society and do all promotion in fresher's fair as well as distributing flyer not to mention about finding training hall which I got it free. I collected about 250 (ed-correction) signature and student ID number for my society which means that my society is going to have about £1250 ($2000) of budget for whole year. We are loaded given the size of actual *practicing* member of society.

Last year, I just let my instrucot teach the way he taught when we are in the international soceity and the number of student in the class just collapsed after 6 weeks. I'm not going to stay as a student forever so I really have to establish this society as viable activity by next year.

As of our teaching method last year, we do lot of taijiquan walking exercise, i.e. we walk very very slow. Then lot of hip turning exercise and number of partner exercise and bit of application of forms. We teach the form (Cheng Man Ching 37 posture form) very slow. With two lesson per week, we finish the entire form near the end of the last semester. We only done pushing hands form and never introduced competitive pushing hand.

I'm going to suggest my instructor that, for taijiquan qigong class, no partner work whatsoever, no auxiliary exercise such as walking exercise, and purely concentrate teaching on streching, stance work, form learning and qigong.

For martial taijiquan class, start off with loooooong stance work then drilling of weapon to get people sweating. Then introduce pushhand form and then, fixed leg competitive pushing hand for fun. Lastly, end the class with qigong warm down, i.e. no studying of form whatsoever.

[bamboo_ leaf]

sounds good,

Ben Lo,

had some pretty tough classes, no problem getting em sweating.

luck in your teachings

david

[taijiquan_student]

Why no form whatsoever? You can't really separate the civil from the martial, and plus the form is good for martial stuff too.

[No_Know]

Meet like two times a week or however much so that your instructor is not stressed.

Teach One form (I might suspect it would be the 37 (you might consider the 24 (though I think you have opposition to this form earlier). Consider the 24 as a bonus perhaps and Extra activity of the club, for bringing attention to the Society by producing people to compete in a 24 event at a tournament at least once a year. Give recognition and competition for those who like that.

Push hands without T'ai Chi Ch'uan excellence in skill at the form(s) builds the wrong strength--uses just muscle-ish I was basically told (jesturing and interpreter) by one of the Recognized Female Chinese T'ai Chi Ch'uan instructors after a seminar at Essex (community) College? (Maryland U.S. of A.) years ago?

You can include theory--yin/yang/ weight shift/ presence of Mind/concentration/Relaxation... Also have Qigong. But these are a second part to any class.

You will have member that know something. You would have members that Think they know something. You would have members that do not think they know much at all. You would have members that want to fight with it. You would get members that want moving meditaion/stress reduction (recommend you heavily address this point for managing with heavy stress of difficult classes or towards end of term...)...

Just do the form as a class activity after a meet and greet with an introduction about the class for that day and an ask for what they Wonder on topic and such as trouble with last class. May be ten minutes M&G + Intro for the day (On what TCC is on first meeting and its uses and what people think of it as and varieties (having researched what the differences are might be good and general info about the different kinds and histories on a sheet of paper to hand out might be something also first day and new members comming-in to join after the first day~))).

Five minute what do you wonder, about doing T'ai Chi Ch'uan so you can address this during class.

Five or ten minute warm-up.

The first weeks go over exerpts of the form with the exercises walking, up and down, shifting weight. I think there are standard basics that are gone over before getting the form.

This pre-form activities get shorter after a month or so. This is where, the last twenty minutes of the class they get shown the form in it's entirety slow (what they'll do); slow with fast ? The form again with explainations including hands on to point out application...do other than hurt anyone, merely enough to demonstrate variety of use as seen on another person.

From then on not twenty minutes but five or ten to give first few or moves or half of first section of the form. Then next activity do as much again with next parts of first section of form. But instead of meet and greet expand what do you wonder to take-up that space. And include towards the end a Review of the end of last activity (for people who missed it and preperation to reinforce people who didn't practice).

Eventually, there will be, what do you wonder, review, warm-up then form. After they have the entire form, refine their movements (and yours :-) ) . I'm thinking applicatin (martial~ and use (health) come at the End of the activity covering whatever was done that day that was Not gone over before-ish).

Perhaps some-such some might say

With dues and an account, one of the semesters the society can trip to a small/big T'ai Chi Ch'uan tournament or seminar. Also, charge for a demonstration using the auditorium or theatre to raise funds, besides bake sales or talent/fashion shows; automobile washes...

Very whatever.

[batesy]

Vapour
I sympathise with you losing students. I teach in a British secondary school (mixed staff and students), problem is by the time the older students are making good progres they leave school. I think your idea of two classes makes sense, but as other posters have asked how will you leave the form out of your martial class? Will you require the more martially orientated members to attend both classes. Good luck

[Vapour]

Originally posted by taijiquan_student
Why no form whatsoever? You can't really separate the civil from the martial, and plus the form is good for martial stuff too.

Opps, it turned up that we are going to get about £1250 ($2000). Still lots of money though.

We can certainly do push hand form (which is very short) and drilling of posture application which come from the form. When I said, "no form", I meant that no study of long form. Form learning takes very long time and it is difficult for beginner to see the connection of practicing form with martial essence of taiji aside from bunkai aspect. So instead, i was thinking of throwing competitive push hand (fixied leg) which is direct, simple, fun, relatively safe and, most importantly, looks martial. Remember I said I fully understand that this is deviating from the core of taijiquan. My idea is to get the student hooked first then feed the real stuff later.

We get lot of student in the beginning and I could find only one room big enough for it (second gig floor of pub which is not being used during on Tuesday.). However, there is a smaller room which is available on Tursday. What I was thinking is to anouce on Tuesday class that there is an another class for *martial* taijiquan.

[jun_erh]

2000 bucks isn't very much money. Why not skip the whole populist side and just teach people who are really into it.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I would have to agree with jun_erh.

You need to ask yourself what is your motivation for wanting to do this.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by jun_erh
2000 bucks isn't very much money. Why not skip the whole populist side and just teach people who are really into it.

Firstly, university student are young and fit, an ideal people to do martial arts taichi. My instructor don't really enjoy teaching his stuff to just old and unfit.

1250 is the maximum budget a society can claim. It is a lot of money because we are not paying for the place we train. There are about +30 week in adacemic year. If we takes exam period out, we have about 60 lessons for whole year. That means 20 pounds per lesson, i.e. we could practically finance our class with our budget.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by T'ai Ji Monkey
I would have to agree with jun_erh.

You need to ask yourself what is your motivation for wanting to do this.

I know we have genuine stuff to offer which is rare in manchester, u.k. There are only two taichi school with genuine lineage, ours (zhong ding) and wudang (dan doherty's practical taichichuan).

I think we didn't *present* it well last year. If we can maitanin the interest of people till they learn the entire form and start doing proper taichi then I can establish my society with solid foundation. I'm not going to stay in uni forever and I want to have sort of legacy where I can look back and say "I did this". May be egostical but hey, I'm doing all these works for free.

[Water Dragon]

pm me vapour. I know a little bit about running a public Taiji program on campus.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I think this is pittiful, and that your intention here is is totally awry (well at least your instructors is anyway!).
When you say he doesn't like teaching the old and unfit what kind of advert is that. Wang Shu Jin was famed for taking the elderly and the unfit and turning them into very skilled fighters, read, If you want a laugh, of how Bruce Frantzis got trounced by the elderly when studying very briefly with Wang Shu jin.

I think it's deplorable when you say that you are just going to cobble some bits and pieces together and then teach the real stuff at a later date whilst still taking their money from them, there's a word for that you know.....robbery!!!

What has been mentioned here is motivation and what one's intent is, and this is the foundation to whether or not you will make a legitimate sucess. If the success you seek is in money then there are easier and quicker ways to make money, but please do not tarnish the respectable quality of genuine Taiji teachers with your money making intent. It seems like nothing positive is coming of this because the root of it in itself has no positive foundation.

Plus who said that Cheng Man-ching wasn't martial??? Back in Taiwan he not only totally trounced other Taiji practitioners but Eagle claw, White Crane, and other styled Masters too, it sound slike that you haven't been taught Cheng's Taiji completely.

And teaching Push-Hands in a competition style because it looks martial is an insult to real Taiji teachers. No benefit whatsoever will be be reaped by your students by learning the competition push-hands namely because it contains no benefits whatsoever of genuine Push-hands.

What is it exactly you want to embue in your students??
I seriously question your motivation and intentions here. Are you teaching to be of benefit to your students, or are you teaching so that you can benefit from your students??

[jun_erh]

vapour- My angle is just based out of my own cynical view of martial arts schools. One guy who I really think got it right was my kuo shu teacher (who doesn't have a website, which is significant but anyway..) he taught like 8 of us for like 60 a month. and he did private training with people who payed alot more. and he had a regular job. It seems like with a school, you either struggle teaching the "real deal" or you play up the health aspect and more martially inclined people lose interest. This is just my experience.

there is more than one way to skin a cat!

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
I think this is pittiful, and that your intention here is is totally awry (well at least your instructors is anyway!).
When you say he doesn't like teaching the old and unfit what kind of advert is that. Wang Shu Jin was famed for taking the elderly and the unfit and turning them into very skilled fighters, read, If you want a laugh, of how Bruce Frantzis got trounced by the elderly when studying very briefly with Wang Shu jin.

I think it's deplorable when you say that you are just going to cobble some bits and pieces together and then teach the real stuff at a later date whilst still taking their money from them, there's a word for that you know.....robbery!!!

What has been mentioned here is motivation and what one's intent is, and this is the foundation to whether or not you will make a legitimate sucess. If the success you seek is in money then there are easier and quicker ways to make money, but please do not tarnish the respectable quality of genuine Taiji teachers with your money making intent. It seems like nothing positive is coming of this because the root of it in itself has no positive foundation.

Plus who said that Cheng Man-ching wasn't martial??? Back in Taiwan he not only totally trounced other Taiji practitioners but Eagle claw, White Crane, and other styled Masters too, it sound slike that you haven't been taught Cheng's Taiji completely.

And teaching Push-Hands in a competition style because it looks martial is an insult to real Taiji teachers. No benefit whatsoever will be be reaped by your students by learning the competition push-hands namely because it contains no benefits whatsoever of genuine Push-hands.

What is it exactly you want to embue in your students??
I seriously question your motivation and intentions here. Are you teaching to be of benefit to your students, or are you teaching so that you can benefit from your students??

Firstly, I do know more than few martial artist who can trounce me even at their 60s. But these people are training since they are child. If someone is old and unfit and never done martial arts, even this person spend serious dedication and commitmment, just becoming moderately skilled martial artist is a big IF. If someone is teaching taijiquan as health exercise, this is perfectly o.k. But if you practice taijiquan as martial arts, it is not. Sure one or two class out of ten is o.k. but if all of your students are like that, it is truly depressive situation.

Secondly, I never said CMC is not martial but it certainly doesn't appear to be martial because it is one of the softest style of taijiquan.

Thirdly, I'm not cheating prospective students because, I'm giving them exactly what they want, that is taichichuna as pure quigong exercise. They usually feel cheated when we teach taichichuan as martial arts because that is not what they expect. I also make it amply clear in that class that there is another class for martial (wushu) taichichuan.

Lastly, I spend two days collecting signature and student ID number in fresher's fair. I also print flyer and I'm going to distribute this in students halls for promotion. Then I went around everywhere looking for place where we can train free. I don't get ****ing dime from this. So if you think I'm greedy, you must be ****ing saint.

[8gates]

Vapour:

Secondly, I never said CMC is not martial but it certainly doesn't appear to be martial because it is one of the softest style of taijiquan.

Whoops, have to edit, then re-reply. lol
I'm not trying to start things things up, and I do feel bad about your situation... but if my Uncle was alive, you could see how "martial" "CMC" Tai Chi is, I know first hand, because he began to teach me when I was about 11yrs old.. I still practice the 8gates or 13gates if you want to include the movements...

Speaking of which..
How about showing your students, just the 13 movements or 13 gates that is in all forms of Tai Chi?

You could do those all of those movements in a form.. or seperate, or for self defense if people wanted to do that aspect...

Just my 2 cents..
I do hope things get better for you. :(

[Vapour]

Thanks. That's is an another problem I was thinking.

If we promote our class constantly, we are going to get steady stream of new students. If we try to teach the form from the beggining to the end, the class have to be split into different groups all the times depending of the level of progression of form learning. This is not practical, IMO.

I'm thinking that instead of trying to teach the form from the beginning, teach the posture or section of form independently and randomly in our class without giving much regard to the sequence of the form. Initially, we limit our selection to basic posture and movement to fundamental 13 movemets/posture and 5 animals, of course.

Though the student may not initially learn the form in continuous sequence, eventually, if they attend enough of our class, they will learn all the components of the form so puting the form together can be done by some special lesson(s).

Oh, and we do have very short form called businessmen form. It's basically repeat the sequence of grasping sparrow's tail and single whip repeatedly.