endurance

[Falcor]

Want to get some opinion on the collective wisdom of this group:

I've heard mentioned in many a conversatons that in a fight, skill and power and etc are all good and dandy, but in the end, if you don't have the endurance, then all of that goes out the window. WHich is why it sometimes happens that a well conditioned person can defeat a more highly skilled yet not as well conditioned person. I am 50-50 in believeing this - some part of me agrees with this, from past experience and the like, but another part of me says "but in a real fight - it doesn't/shouldn't last that long anyway....." - but I'm not sure how much of that I believe either. Anyway, to cut to the chase, here are my questions:

1. WHat do you fellas (and ladies) think about the above statement?

2. I am somewhat aware of what the MMA crowd does in boost their endurance, but can the TCMA folks tell me what you guys do to boost endurance? I guess what I mean is, are there any traditional exercises specific to your style that addresses this issue, or do you do the same things as modern endurance training _ like running, etc.

3. Can those of you who practice the "internal" arts tell me if there are separate, more internal ways of developing endurance, or do you engage in the same activities as above running, etc (but would that be considered..."external" or would that not matter?)

Thanks folks.

[MasterKiller]

If you plan on fighting in the ring, you better have the endurance to last 12 rounds.

If you plan on fighting in a bar, you don't need the endurance to last 12 rounds.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Falcor
Want to get some opinion on the collective wisdom of this group:

I've heard mentioned in many a conversatons that in a fight, skill and power and etc are all good and dandy, but in the end, if you don't have the endurance, then all of that goes out the window. WHich is why it sometimes happens that a well conditioned person can defeat a more highly skilled yet not as well conditioned person. I am 50-50 in believeing this - some part of me agrees with this, from past experience and the like, but another part of me says "but in a real fight - it doesn't/shouldn't last that long anyway....." - but I'm not sure how much of that I believe either. Anyway, to cut to the chase, here are my questions:

1. WHat do you fellas (and ladies) think about the above statement?

2. I am somewhat aware of what the MMA crowd does in boost their endurance, but can the TCMA folks tell me what you guys do to boost endurance? I guess what I mean is, are there any traditional exercises specific to your style that addresses this issue, or do you do the same things as modern endurance training _ like running, etc.

3. Can those of you who practice the "internal" arts tell me if there are separate, more internal ways of developing endurance, or do you engage in the same activities as above running, etc (but would that be considered..."external" or would that not matter?)

Thanks folks.

For the most part, conditioning (aerobic and anaerobic) exercises are supplemental and thus up to the practitioner. Some styles have them included, often as part of a form. Xingyiquan has the 16 Exercises. They aren't the most physically demanding, but they certainly don't hurt.

[yenhoi]

MasterKiller is correct.

The more things you have to your advantage when you fight the better.

:eek:

[Kristoffer]

If u have endiurance to go 12 rounds then you have enough endurance to drill your techniques and spar longer. So the better you wanna b the more you train, logically

[Vash]

Yeah. You might have good technique, but if you can't make it work, or whoever you're fighting happens to be bigger than you, more experienced, or pushed about 200 more than you on bench, you need more stuff to through.

My favorite: Explosive lifts in a circuit.

[Kristoffer]

explosive what in the what now?:confused:

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by Vash


Explosive lifts in a circuit. :D

[Liokault]

WHich is why it sometimes happens that a well conditioned person can defeat a more highly skilled yet not as well conditioned person.


Nope.

Skilled martial artists get owned because they are skilled at FORM not FIGHTING.


I think the real key to endurance training is to take part in a wide range of stamina exercizes as your body tends to adapt to any specific single type of training you do.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
explosive what in the what now?:confused:

Explosive lifts. Like power clean, jumping squat.

[Merryprankster]

30 seconds of all out effort--even less--can cause many who think they are in shape to run out of gas. If you don't believe me, go run a 200m sprint as fast as you can and see how you feel at the end.

The problem is two-fold:

1. CV efficiency.
2. Lactic Acid threshold.

Of tertiary importance is localized muscular endurance. I say tertiary because you probably won't get "tired" in the endurance sense. You'll get tired in the "I can't flush lactic acid out of my system fast enough and my muscles won't work" sense.

Fighting activity is an anaerobic exercise. It's extremely intense activity executed in a short amount of time. It uses the short term energy pathways as opposed to our normal aerobic pathways. Your CV system can only provide so much oxygen to your system and when your demand exceeds the supply, you essentially revert to fermentation in the muscle cells. This produces lactic acid in the muscle tissue. This anaerobic pathway is far more inefficient than the aerobic pathway, but when you don't have oxygen, you make do with what you've got.

The lactic acid is going to build up and cause muscular failure. A short period of rest will restore your ability to do more work. During that rest, your system flushes out the lactic acid and reoxygenates your muscle tissue.

Improved CV efficiency improves lactic acid removal decreasing your necessary rest period and reducing lactic acid buildup while working.

Lactic acid threshold is how much lactic acid you can tolerate before muscular failure/fatigue. Obviously, the higher it is, the better off you are.

The better those two things are, the longer and faster you can move in bursts before becoming fatigued, AND the shorter your rest period has to be before you can pull the trigger again. If you are unused to such activity and have a big, strong, athletic opponent who makes you work for what you get, I don't think 30 seconds or longer is an unreasonable time period to expect to have to fight like crazy to win or get free.

Quite frankly, if you have great technique, timing, strength and reflexes, but don't have the anaerobic endurance to match, all that will go right out the window.

I'm not suggesting that this sort of fitness is as necessary to a self-defense scenario as to a ring fighter, but you certainly need a modicum of it to protect yourself.

[yenhoi]

you cant say things like modicum on a CMA forum.

ttt.

[Serpent]

Under "Correct" in the dictionary it says, "See Merryprankster's last post".

[Vash]

What he said.

[Kristoffer]

uhm.. yea

[Merryprankster]

Alternately, you can stand in a stance for 5 minutes to improve your localized muscular endurance at one specific angle of flexion, vice through the range of motion and pretend you're in shape because of that.

[Jowbacca]

Not to start an argument or anything, but I've wondered for a bit if stance work could improve your lactic acid threshold.

Yes, I understand endurance is usually limited to the exact point in the range of motion; but I am also not sure that the isometrics done in those experiments were much longer than a minute or two.

If you're flexing your arm for a couple minutes, it's a constant effort to stay flexed, but the failures aren't as noticeable as a stance where either you'll rise or fall if you suddenly stop flexing. That might mean a higher intensity than what was experiemented.

Just an idea I'm kicking around.

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by Liokault



I think the real key to endurance training is to take part in a wide range of stamina exercizes as your body tends to adapt to any specific single type of training you do. needed to be repeated...

[Liokault]

Well thank you suntzu.


The worst thing my teacher has invented for to improve my stamina is running flat out up a steep hill for about 45 seconds then imidiatly going into focus pad work at the top. If I dont keep up a high work rate he hits me.

I burn out after about 5 even when I think i really fit.

[Starchaser107]

I think you should do neigung again:D

jus kiddin'