!!!TMA on video!!!

[Suntzu]

i heard hsing i is Oakland 'base' style... u be the judge...

http://www.kungfu.net/video/pop-nat-2002-big.html

Brian and Russ ARE badazz... lucky for them i'm a skinny mofo... :p :D

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Suntzu
i heard hsing i is Oakland 'base' style... u be the judge...



Well, there was a whole lotta aggresive, forward energy in there.

[Judge Pen]

I've never seen a low spinning sweep in any Hsing-I that I've studied, but, then again, I'm SD so what the hell do I know? :p

[Chang Style Novice]

I like the way that guy caught the thrust kick - very sweet!

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I've never seen a low spinning sweep in any Hsing-I that I've studied, but, then again, I'm SD so what the hell do I know? :p

There's also no jab in the CMA, but you'll see it all the time :)

CMA are training methods, not fighting methods. Big difference.

[Suntzu]

CMA are training methods, not fighting methods. Big difference. depends on who u ask.... and where u train.... but thats for another 5+ page thread...

anyone who get there leg caught and just stands there on 1 leg deserves what they have comming tp them...

[Chang Style Novice]

By which I assume you mean, "the floor" or perhaps "some high velocity leather gloves." :D

[Suntzu]

:D as they say "Karma's a b!tch"....

[Jowbacca]

To be perfectly clear, according to the EBM website Brent claims influence from Hsing I, Tai chi, northern kung fu, ju jitsu, san shou, qigong, and greco-roman. [Edit: almost forgot TKD & kyokushin]

But then, you know me and how i think: ie that if you can make any of it work- even if just affecting the way you move- you're still doing kung fu.

That doesn't necessarily mean doing kung fu to the exclusion to everything else.

We're human beings, not styles. As humans we need to adapt to the game we're playing.

Is someone like Randy Couture not a wrestler anymore because he throws some punches or goes for submissions?

The wrestling influences his movement, gives him a level of conditioning, as well as some good take downs.

Yes, he's striking, he's submitting, he's doing mixed martial arts, but he's still using his wrestling. Above all else he's human and he's adapting to the game he's in, using the influences of what he's trained.

[Chang Style Novice]

Jowbacca speaks sensibly...are you sure you're on the right board?

[Felipe Bido]

Sweet clip

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Felipe Bido
Sweet clip

Do you recognize any of it as Xing Yi?

[Felipe Bido]

The takedowns, and the pushing look like Xingyi. The structure could look more like Xingyi, if it was closer to the body. I don't know how much rapid fire/aggressive response you can do with the gloves on, and the guys have other styles apart from Xingyi in their training. These are points to consider.

[Starchaser107]

waterdragon : "There's also no jab in the CMA, but you'll see it all the time ________________________________________________

some recent shaolin forms have started to incorporate jabs and stand fighting techs.

[Starchaser107]

by the way nice clip.

[Merryprankster]

Jowbacca speaks sensibly...are you sure you're on the right board?

Jowbacca started fighting and training with fighters, consequently, he speaks sense.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


There's also no jab in the CMA

WTF are you smoking!?

:confused:

[Ikken Hisatsu]

mmm you have lunge punches which really are just jabs... or whatever you want to call it when your leading hand goes in a straight line to the other guy. its a jab.

[Suntzu]

Jow didn't get up early this morning... so he missed all of the fitness models.... :D

[Jowbacca]

Went to bed late...so I remember the alarm goin off, just didn't wanna work out and go to work on like 3 hours sleep.... kickin myself now. LOL

Goin to Bmore Boxin tonight; I'll let yah know how it goes.

I'll be there tomorrow & thursday morning.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Serpent


WTF are you smoking!?

:confused:

Some kill, if you must know :D

The jab was added to the CMA sometime in the early 20th century after a bunch of border skirmishes with the Russians.

[Shooter]

CMA are training methods, not fighting methods. Big difference.

You sure about that? :p

[Water Dragon]

Yup. You can train in Tai Chi and Shuai Chiao and BJJ and boxing. Are you going to pick and choose what you use in a fight?

Let the semantical arguing begin.

[MasterKiller]

What if you only train in Tai Chi? Mixing styles does just that---it mixes everything up.

Put peanut butter, ice cream, and milk in a blender, and you have no choice but to drink the milkshake. Don't put them in the blender, and you can choose to eat any of them individually.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
What if you only train in Tai Chi? Mixing styles does just that---it mixes everything up.


If you're in a fight, and your opponent is standing there dazed, are you NOT gonna haul back and crack him as hard as you can because it's not proper Taiji body mechanic?

[Suntzu]

What if you only train in Tai Chi? Mixing styles does just that---it mixes everything up. and :confused: ...

[Chang Style Novice]

"If you're in a fight, and your opponent is standing there dazed, are you NOT gonna haul back and crack him as hard as you can because it's not proper Taiji body mechanic?"

Of course not - hauling back might give him the time to shake it off. Go in for the kill with short range power, homes!

[MasterKiller]

and ...


Put peanut butter, ice cream, and milk in a blender, and you have no choice but to drink the milkshake. Don't put them in the blender, and you can choose to eat any of them individually.The point being that if you are trained to fight in one style, you are more than likely going to fight that way. If you mix a bunch of stuff up, then it will look like whatever it looks like.


If you're in a fight, and your opponent is standing there dazed, are you NOT gonna haul back and crack him as hard as you can because it's not proper Taiji body mechanic?Why wouldn't a Taiji player hit someone? The Yang style has punches, and I don't see why using them would necessarily contradict your training.

[Suntzu]

The point being that if you are trained to fight in one style, you are more than likely going to fight that way. If you mix a bunch of stuff up, then it will look like whatever it looks like. again.... and???... LOOKS has nothing to do with the fight... i dont see what the big deal is my stuff not looking like XY or Z... as long as i'm the one NOT getting my azz kicked....... peanut butter milkshake :confused: akkk...

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


Why wouldn't a Taiji player hit someone? The Yang style has punches, and I don't see why using them would necessarily contradict your training.

What if the punch isn't in Yang style? Are you gonna not use it?

My handwork is currently: Jab, Pi, Beng, Hook, Overhand right. I don't think about which one is boxing and which one is Xing Yi. I'm going to start elbow work soon (I hope) I doubt I'll be worried which is Muay Thai and which is Kun Tao. Please see my sig for more.

[Jowbacca]

mmmmmm peanut butter.....



You know, I've been thinking and I'm starting to wonder if Thai styles are the real street lethal...

Thai styles include Masaman and Pad Thai; and either one could keep you goin, long after they're gone...

Of course Chinese styles have their General Tsos & Pan Fried dumplings; but the flavors never seem to get along with each other. Too much infighting between the hot mustard sauce and the sweet and sour chicken. You could go stir fry, but everyone will accuse you of creating too much of a mish mash.

Everyone knows that Japanese styles are minimalist at best. While wasabi packs a little punch, udon keeps you smiling, & katsu kurry can take it home; when an outsider sees a single piece of raw salmon sitting on a few grains of rice he's gonna wonder when the cooking's gonna get started.

I guess what it all boils down to is that every style has their own fried rice and it's the skill of the chef, not the name of his restaurant that matters.


---------------------------------------------
Another delusional rant brought to you by blatant underfeeding.

[MasterKiller]

What if the punch isn't in Yang style? Are you gonna not use it? And what if monkeys fly out of my butt tonight? The punch is there, and a taiji player would use it.

again.... and???... LOOKS has nothing to do with the fight... i dont see what the big deal is my stuff not looking like XY or Z... as long as i'm the one NOT getting my azz kicked....... peanut butter milkshake akkk...Study X, Y, Z, and you'll use a little bit of X, a little bit of Y, and a little bit of Z.

Study only X, and you will use only X. Looks has nothing to do with it. Catalog of techniques, and the emphsis placed on them, has everything to do with it.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
And what if monkeys fly out of my butt tonight? The punch is there, and a taiji player would use it.


So that's how you back up your argument? If you want to discuss MA let me know. stupid little $hit.

[Merryprankster]

If I use a double leg takedown, is it my BJJ, Judo, Wrestling or Sambo training?

[MasterKiller]

If I use a double leg takedown, is it my BJJ, Judo, Wrestling or Sambo training? You tell me.

When I use a double leg takedown, it's my Kung Fu training.

[Merryprankster]

What if I use an inner-thigh reap throw? Judo, BJJ, Sambo or wrestling?

[Merryprankster]

OUR point is that your desire to make distinctions is meaningless because good principles transcend stylistic considerations.

If it works, there is a near duplicate or identical move in another system.

Asking "which is it" is a meaningless question.

[Suntzu]

my mom like good Pad Thai... i'm a Lard Nah person myself... and a GOOD japanese style is too expensive...

Study X, Y, Z, and you'll use a little bit of X, a little bit of Y, and a little bit of Z. i dont have a problem with that...

Catalog of techniques, and the emphsis placed on them, has everything to do with it. so everything in ya crib is from the same store too huh?... since we wanna us metaphors...

If I use a double leg takedown, is it my BJJ, Judo, Wrestling or Sambo training? naw its called... "D@@@@mn, son got the sh!t slammed outta him"... well that what they call it 'round my way...

[MasterKiller]

If it works, there is a near duplicate or identical move in another system. EXACTLY!

Which means you are using fighting applications, right? Not merely training methods.

[Suntzu]

Which means you are using fighting applications, right? Not merely training methods. Oooooo... this is THAT arguement....... i wasn't tryin to get into that one... carry on...

[Merryprankster]

And those applications have no stylistic boundary. Asking "Where it came from" or saying "that's Tai Ji" is pointless. You could say "that's just like or is Tai Ji's Monkey ****s at the Moon," or whatever, but you can't say THAT technique belongs to Tai Ji.

If you only do one thing then you are doing "that system." But that application and that principle doesn't belong to it.

[Jowbacca]

Not to sound contrary to what the rest of you are saying; but if you're pulling off a double leg, you're gonna be aware of the counters that you've trained/had experience with, ie: the bjj counters, the sambo counters, the judo counters, and the wrestling counters; or just the kung fu counters if that's what you've trained.

Regardless, at which point have you stopped doing any of the above?


Suntzu

Had to pass up some sushi at the UFC party.
Come november, probly gonna spend half a pay check on da good stuff, with a nice selection of Japanese beers. Lemme know if u wanna hit that.

[Water Dragon]

My point is a little different. We don't live in 17th century China where hand to hand techniques are state of the art, closely guarded secrets.

If I want to work on my standing throwing, I can train Shuai Chiao or Greco Roman or Judo which specializes in it.

If I want to learn better striking, I can go to Boxing, or Xing Yi, or Muay Thai, or another system that specializes in that.

If I want to work on my ground game, I'll visit the BJJ or catch wrestling crowd. If I want to do knife work, I'll visit the Indonesians.

[MasterKiller]

And those applications have no stylistic boundary. Asking "Where it came from" or saying "that's Tai Ji" is pointless. You could say "that's just like or is Tai Ji's Monkey ****s at the Moon," or whatever, but you can't say THAT technique belongs to Tai Ji.

If you only do one thing then you are doing "that system." But that application and that principle doesn't belong to it. It's also ignorant to assume a style doesn't use a punch because it's called something else, either.

[CrippledAvenger]

I'm begining to think that this emphasis on "Stylistic purity" is much more of a Chinese cultural phenomenon than a valid training strategy. I mean, when you start seeing a style's practioners take on the characteristics of a family, (and given the Chinese emphasis on family relationships), it's no wonder you start seeing the emphasis on staying true to your "style" whatever that may be.

However, it still means a liver punch is a liver punch, as is an elbow to the head, as is a reaping throw. Sure, there's minor variations that lead to slightly different results (see Diagonal Cut versus Judo's reaping throw), but at the same time, it's hubris to claim it's something new and original. It's a variation on a principle, not a trade secret.

I also think there's not nearly as much difference between fighting styles as people would like to believe, but that's another flame war for a different thread. :rolleyes:

[Oso]

I also think there's not nearly as much difference between fighting styles as people would like to believe, but that's another flame war for a different thread.

that's what i've been saying for a while now...{shrug}

[Merryprankster]

It's also ignorant to assume a style doesn't use a punch because it's called something else, either.

Ummm... yeah, that's my point. Reading for Comprehension...

Oso--exactly. This style this and that stuff is nonsense. There's good training that adheres to good principles and there's bad training that doesn't. Style is a shorthand for emphases and training methods.

[MasterKiller]

Ummm... yeah, that's my point. Reading for Comprehension...


You could say "that's just like or is Tai Ji's Monkey ****s at the Moon," or whatever, but you can't say THAT technique belongs to Tai Ji. I believe your point was that two systems that share techniques probably call related/identical techniques by different names. For example, jab A and jab B. Both are still jabs, but named different things.

My point was that it is a fallacy of some people here to assume that because something is referred to in a different manner, that it does not exist in a given system. For example, saying you don't have anything called punch A in your system, therefore you never punch, when in fact, punch A may be called "touching the monkey's cortex" or some weird Chinese shlt.

I see a distinction in argument there, however slight.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


If you're in a fight, and your opponent is standing there dazed, are you NOT gonna haul back and crack him as hard as you can because it's not proper Taiji body mechanic?

No, merryprankster is correct. It is a reading comprehension problem on your part masterkiller. Let us go back and review the original quote, shall we.

If you'll notice, no where does this quote indicate that punching is not contained within the Taijiquan curriculum. What id does indicate is that there may be other methods of punching that are in violation of the specific body mechanics taught within the Taijiquan curriculum.

The jab would be a great example here. The jab is technically NOT Taiji because it does not rely on full body, integrated force. In fact, full bodied integrated force kinda defeats the whole purpose of the jab. Therefore, if you are a "pure" Taiji guy, you cannot use a jab because it is not only an arm punch, it is disconnected from your body to give it that snappy speed.

[Golden Arms]

I am seeing some good points here..but some of this is BS too. Namely: That just because more than one style does a movement, they are the same, and not bound by style..I will tell you right now that my Punch from Hung Gar is a LOT different in feel from a Hsing I punch..both will f@ck you up, but they are different in feel and execution. Oh..and having a solid whole body jab is actually what a lot of guys strive for..its scary as hell when a guy can jab you almost as hard as he can cross you...cause the jab is hard to see if its aimed right.

[Water Dragon]

Right, but when you punch in a fight, do you say "Oh I will punch him a la Xing Yi" or "I will punch him a la Hung Gar" or "I'm gonna crack this guy upside the head."?

The jab thing may be semantics. What I think you are calling a full body jab, I would call a lead straight. I consider it different because it has a different purpose. One is a range finder, a question asker. The other is a entry/attack. Technically, you could call them both a jab as they are both lead hand straights.

[MasterKiller]

If you'll notice, no where does this quote indicate that punching is not contained within the Taijiquan curriculum.
What if the punch isn't in Yang style? Are you gonna not use it?
What id does indicate is that there may be other methods of punching that are in violation of the specific body mechanics taught within the Taijiquan curriculum.
Does the fact that other methods exist automatically disqualify you from using your method? Can a Taiji player crack someone as hard as possible using Taiji?

[Oso]

as said above, it's the variations that define the style.

I guess it's obviously difficult to say that what you are doing is not so different from what someone else is doing and to recognize that the only difference is just a variation and not something unique.

hmmm, not sure I'm making sense. ok, here's a recent example for me of something being different but still the same.

I've sparred with a boxer twice in the last two weeks. I've been trying to throw what I feel are traditional boxing punches (which probably aren't). I hadn't landed a hook punch at all until I told myself to just throw what we call a 'meteor' punch. As soon as I 'decided' to throw a punch I had trained, I landed it. For us it's a 'meteor' punch. Mechanically it is slightly different than a boxing 'hook'...check that, I perceive it to be slightly different, an external observer may not...but never the less, once I stopped trying to do something I had not trained and did something I had trained, I was more successful. However, I did not think that I had done something totally different than the hooks that my friend had been pelting me with the entire time...just my version of it.

lol, of course, my frirend says my movement is ok, and my endurance is good, but I need to work on my punches :)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Does the fact that other methods exist automatically disqualify you from using your method? Can a Taiji player crack someone as hard as possible using Taiji?

OK, let's assume that you are the hero in a Hong Kong Action flick. After a grueling 20 minute battle to the death, you are about to defeat your nemesis. He is dazed and has fallen to his knees in front of you. You cock your right fist back to your ear and are about to crash said fist into your defeated nemesis' face, when the Director calls out, "Hey! WTF are you doing? You can't draw your fist back like that, that's not Taiji. You need to have your elbow down when you punch. Try it again guys, and this time make sure you do Step Forward and Punch Down like a proper Taiji guy would do."

It is better to be effective in combat, than pure in style.

[MasterKiller]

Are you assuming that ****ing your hand back as far as possible generates the most power while punching? Proper mechanics are proper mechanics, and someone who has trained enough, regardless of style, will know this instinctively.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, I think you can get more bang for your buck outta that punch than any other. That's probably why every untrained person I have ever seen throws a punch like that.

You just open yourself up for a $hitload of counters when you do that. But it does have its place. Whether or not it's in your "style"

I'm bowing out of this one. This is about to become another one of those infamous KFM childish shouting matches.

[MasterKiller]

effective in combat, than pure in style. I just don't think these are mutually exclusive.

[Merryprankster]

Namely: That just because more than one style does a movement, they are the same, and not bound by style..I will tell you right now that my Punch from Hung Gar is a LOT different in feel from a Hsing I punch..both will f@ck you up, but they are different in feel and execution.

Somebody, somewhere, is throwing a shot completely analogous to your Hsing I punch. Maybe it's not in Hung Gar. Maybe it's in something else.

Somebody somewhere, is throwing a shot completely analgous to your Hung Gar punch. Maybe it's not in your Hsing Yi training. Maybe it's in something else.

My point is this: We have one instrument of expression--the human body. The basic principles of appropriate movement--and therefore fighting--must remain the same. Violations of those principles is bad. Adhering to those principles is good. "Style" is a shorthand for emphases and training methods.

[Golden Arms]

Although I feel there may be exceptions to that due to major modifications in some styles (hsing i for example) of the body mechanic itself and non intuitive ways of using your body for power generation..I will agree with MP..this is for the most part true of 90% of the techniques you are going to run into.

[Xebsball]

Re vera, potas bene.

[Merryprankster]

non intuitive ways of using your body for power generation.

Something I learned in grappling is that the instinctive answer is very frequently WRONG. :D

A great example of what we were talking about before though is a sort of power generation that WD was talking about in his Xing Yi training. It looks almost precisely like the same movement wrestlers use to snap people over their body. I'll have to check, when I can, but it looks almost exactly the same.

Different purpose, almost identical motion. I'm willing to keep an open mind and deal with the idea that it may NOT be, but it sure looks like it to me.

[Oso]

MP, imho, the xing yi spine compression and the wrestler's snap up are similar enough to call the same. Differences only lying in your aforementioned emphasis and training.

[KC Elbows]

Lately I've been thinking that style is more about induction into fighting arts, and that, once you're talking about people who are trained fighters, who fight and really know their stuff, you are almost universally talking about people who do whatever skill set they've focused on with the minimum of effort(but appropriate power).

I think that's why, in terms of chinese martial arts, the internal arts are commonly said to take longer- since their goal is the relaxed confident not mastered by fear state that usually takes a little time to reach, they aren't looked at as having any skill til they achieve that, even if they can muscle their way through fighting early on.

The problem is, its hard for someone still at the beginner's stage to recognize those universals you're talking about, so they're kind of a slave to the experts at that point. So they're almost doomed to learning some bias early on, and later carrying that bias as a weakness in their fighting and worldview, unless they manage to never train under narrow minded teachers.

And of course, there's plenty of people who make styles that are "scientifically based" and such, but even (maybe especially) they have a hard time defining the universal motions.

And its hard not to pick up bias. Quality control between martial arts schools is an oxymoron. I've yet to see an art where the good schools came anywhere close in number to the bad schools, though for a time, bjj sounds like it had its golden era. Guys who earn the right to teach often don't teach as well as they were taught, some teach who have no business teaching, some are passable teachers, and some are passable practitioners. Combine this with the number of passable practitioners there will be, and any style will soon find less good schools than bad. So we get people judging off of their experiences of other schools, and if the viewer's school works hard, they will certainly see the number of schools who do not, and those who don't even come close, and it's easy to say "this style sucks" based off of there being no serious schools of it nearby where people fight. I constantly tell students at my school "don't judge, just pay attention to the guys who are good," but it's not really effective.

Anyway, my point being, I think learning martial arts is going to involve style at the start, and later lose it to an extent once a few of those universals are understood. But I think that style has its uses, because it focuses fighting into a small number of tactics and techniques, keeps it simple and all. Sure, the parts are probably elsewhere, but the particular combo of those parts is often unique.

Sorry for the babble in the middle there. Turrettes and all.

[Merryprankster]

I've yet to see an art where the good schools came anywhere close in number to the bad schools, though for a time, bjj sounds like it had its golden era.

Hmm. I'd say we're still in the golden era. There are still only a handful of blackbelts in the U.S. when compared to other MA's, and the fellows who are ranked in BJJ and teach are generally under no illusion about their skills thanks to the competition element.

I'd also say that because there is a strong competition element to BJJ, you will always be able to determine which schools are producing good products, just like wrestling, Judo and boxing.

So, while the number of schools will likely increase and many are likely to be not so hot, there will also be a large number of very good, easily recognizable and reachable schools.

Not sure if that makes any sense.

[KC Elbows]

Makes perfect sense.

At the same time, if competition were a requirement, all judo schools would be good, but they aren't. Some areas have no one to compete with, some schools squelch competition because squelching competition is a sure way to make sure your students won't figure out for a while if you don't know crap. Point being, there are more lame bjj schools than there were 3 years ago, there'll be more three years from now, and that number will probably rise faster than the increase in good bjj schols, cause that takes real work and all.

However, you're probably right, competition probably mitigates that well.