What's your favorite style?

[ninthdrunk]

What are everyone's favorite styles? Why? Is it the most effective in a real fight, do you feel better for having practiced it, etc. If you are a student of a system that teaches multiple styles, what do you feel is the best among those styles?

What other styles would everyone like to learn? What skills do you feel that you need to learn to round out your fighting ability?

Ben

[Brad]

What are everyone's favorite styles? Why?
I like longfist because it gave me a strong body(which a since lost do yo a lack of practice ;) ), excellent flexability, and the ability to adapt to many different types of training. Kind of a "jack of all trades" when it came to martial arts.

I like Taiji because it helped me learn relaxation and allowed me to use my body more effeciently.

Bagua forms are my favorite to watch and practice though I don't have enough experience in it to use it(only had a couple of lessons).

Baji folk are bad@ss, as are Xingyi peeps.

San Shou is great for basic straight forward fighting in and out of the ring.



What other styles would everyone like to learn?
I'd like to try experience Wai Lun Choi's Liu He Ba Fa someday... BJJ, Hung Gar, and maybe a Shaolin style like Hong Quan or Lohan Quan.

What skills do you feel that you need to learn to round out your fighting ability?
punching, kicking, elbowing, kneeing, stand up grappling, ground grappling, etc.

:p

[neigung]

Shuai chiao, because it's all I need and more.

[Vash]

Hell, for pure martial applicability, Tae Kwon Do!:rolleyes:

In all honesty, I like Isshinryu Toudi (all right, it's Karate, but it don't look/feel like any Japanese style I've seen. it's f*cking Okinawan! 'Course, I'd love it even more if we weren't required to do all this cultural stuff [and I'd sleep with it if my f*cking rib would hurry and heal!]).

I've seen a few other Okinawan styles I like (Gojuryu is the only other I've had any real interaction with).

For non-OMA, I'd say Wing Chun (fuggedabout lineages!), Lau Gar (please don't hate me if spelled wrong. Stupid Gaijin!), or Xingyiquan (another obsession. one which I've never actually practiced).

[ninthdrunk]

Hsing ie is definitely something that any martial artist can benefit from. It is so direct, so to the point, and the meditative benefits are phenomenal! The theory and benefits carry over to any other strikes from any other style...truly awesome! You should definitely look into finding a good teacher in your area. If I may make a suggestion though....first go through practice in tai chi, and pa kua. Then your hsing ie will be truly effective.

[TjD]

Originally posted by neigung
Shuai chiao, because it's all I need and more.


exactly, but replace shuai chiao with wing chun :D

[trilobite]

Lohan Fist and Shaolin Fist are sweet because they're so friggin easy to apply to fights.

[themeecer]

Shaolin Do hands down. :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by themeecer
Shaolin Do hands down. :D

Meecer - have you ever studied anything else?

[shaolin kungfu]

five bucks says tae kwon do

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ninthdrunk
What are everyone's favorite styles?

No favorite style. muay thai + judo/SC + bjj = excellent.

Why?

hard training, good opportunities for testing yourself, very little BS - political and otherwise.

Is it the most effective in a real fight

A question like that really can't be legitimately answered.

do you feel better for having practiced it, etc.

of course.

If you are a student of a system that teaches multiple styles, what do you feel is the best among those styles?

all of them.

What other styles would everyone like to learn?

bukti negara silat, ba ji, catch, to name a few.

What skills do you feel that you need to learn to round out your fighting ability?


Nothing, except maybe some firearms training.

[Shaolin-Do]

Originally posted by ninthdrunk
What are everyone's favorite styles?
Cant say I have one.
Why? ...
Is it the most effective in a real fight, do you feel better for having practiced it, etc. If you are a student of a system that teaches multiple styles, what do you feel is the best among those styles?

I study shaolin-do, and shuai chiao. I like them both.

What other styles would everyone like to learn?

White eyebrow, Eagle claw, 8-step mantis...
What skills do you feel that you need to learn to round out your fighting ability?

learn to be a knife badass... And I think Im going to buy some of those ninja throwing spikes to play with. :eek:
:)
:)

Ben

[norther practitioner]

Long fist has given me some good basics, involves some throws, which I'm getting into now, and has all the basic punches and throws (although my sidekick still sucks). I'd like to get some more chi na past all the wrist locks, that I can practice like the submition guys do (I'm working on my single whip)..

I also love the fact I'm doing more taiji now, as it gives me a good yin/yang to my training...

As far as effectiveness, it is all in the training.

[Dark Knight]

Shaolin Do hands down.


Why?

[Dark Knight]

themeecer, what do you do for work? Are you a full time instructor?

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by TjD


exactly, but replace shuai chiao with wing chun :D

Aw, you're just jealous you don't get constantly thrown on your noggin. ;)

But to answer the question-- I'm quite partial to the mix of stuff I'm putting together. The Shuai Chiao is awesome, boxing fun and effective, etc..

But I also like what I've tasted from Xing Yi and Southern Mantis. Hell, I'd like to learn it all, but all things considered, I like it where I am.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
themeecer, what do you do for work? Are you a full time instructor?
I am currently substitute teaching grades K-12 for my 'steady' job. I teach SD at my teacher's school free of charge. We also help out in a few college classes he teaches here. I also help run an internet business with a few collegues of mine. And more for fun, even though it has paid very well at times, I'm a magician. (I get bored only doing one thing)



Originally posted by Serpent
Meecer - have you ever studied anything else?
No I haven't. I have observed a few other styles in person and seen many more in clips on the web. I have no reason to study anything else because my plate is more than full with what I have now. I am not impressed with crosstrainers that can claim they have 7 different blackbelts. I'd rather see them stick with one art for all that time.

[norther practitioner]

Just sort of playing DA here, but isn't that what SD is now? With all the systems in there it seems to be a bit mish mashy to me... I'd have to say I'm lucky enough to have a teacher with experience in a lot of different arts and who is amazing in the couple he teaches... I just get tastes of the other stuff, where it seems you guys mix southern, northern, internal, external, where a lot of them have sort of differing basics.

[MasterKiller]

I was gonna ask themeecer what he defines as "cross-training."

I consider my Yang Taiji to be cross-training because it's a separate style unto itself from my Northern Shaolin.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
it seems you guys mix southern, northern, internal, external, where a lot of them have sort of differing basics.

That's true, we do mix different styles. They are intorduced in a way that I feel is complimentary to one another. For example, Hisng-I is taught at the same rank as Hua To's 5 animal play. The 5 animal play predates Hsing-I but compliments the internal aspect of the Hsing-I and also, through the "dead animal" training, strengthens the joints which is useful wen repeating some of the explosive Hsing-I techniques.

The differences make SD adaptable to different people and situations.

[Taomonkey]

Arnis de Mano, baby.
everything is a stick so don't make me poke you with it.

[jun_erh]

In chinese boxing: masters and methods (a great book) there's one guy who practices something called 18 buddha boxing. The 18 had some significance, like the nuber of steps in the form or something. It basically consisted of he would do a sort of crane style swing at your eyes and claw at your groin, occasionaly throwing in a straight punch to mix it up. I think it would be a great style for someone who doesn't do much stand up (a wrestler maybe!) and very cool on it's own.

Another one I like is the Tibetan style i saw in the shaw brothers flick "Heroes Two" sort of kung fu mixed with muay thai mixed with an indian war dance. very external and my favorite part was the big ape like overhand smash.

[yenhoi]

I think the coolest "art" i have trained/seen is the silat group of arts.

Pure brutality.

:eek:

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I was gonna ask themeecer what he defines as "cross-training."

I consider my Yang Taiji to be cross-training because it's a separate style unto itself from my Northern Shaolin.

I was referring to the 'belt collectors." We have a local teacher here that is like that. He taught Tae Kwan Do for years and lately he has been studying other arts so he can offer those as well. You can now get a black belt in Tae Kwan Do and a green belt in Judo from his school. (You can get higer belts as soon as he attains the rank to teach it) He has been trying for years to get some of our material but we aren't giving it up.

As for adding Tai Chi to your Northern Shaolin, I would say that is a great idea. We have a patch on our gis that some may scoff at but I like the principle behind it. It says "Hardest of the hard, softest of the soft" in Chinese. I have no need to cross train because I have ample internal and ample external styles to study in my system. I wouldn't be opposed to practicing under a master of one distinct CMA such as hsing i or tai chi. I would love to cross hands with some of their students and see their take on different applications.

Maybe I am contradicting myself here. I'm just not impressed by someone that has 7 belts, I would rather them have one or at the very most two in which they have spent many years training in.

[MasterKiller]

I have no need to cross train because I have ample internal and ample external styles to study in my system.
But technically, isn't practicing Tai Chi and Southern Kung Fu together "cross-training," at least under the same definition I used for myself?

I know what your point is about the guys bouncing around from system to system, and I agree with you. Why go to the market when you have a garden in your backyard?

[Dark Knight]

Cross training is not bad, but make sure you have a base delivery system. There are many people who think they are doing good by studying a little of everything, but they become good at nothing.

[Ray Pina]

I've never seen ANYTHING like this style, but once I saw it, or rather felt it applied to me, I knew I had to learn it. It's focus is on learning technical power, as well as internal and mind power. It already assumes you know how to kick and punch and there is a four arm prerequisite to learning.

I've also studied isshin-ryu (9 years), Hung Gar and Wing Chun (3 years) and Southern Mantis (3 years).

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

But technically, isn't practicing Tai Chi and Southern Kung Fu together "cross-training," at least under the same definition I used for myself?
Not really because I see them as two different sides of the same coin. Even though Tai Chi was not developed in the temple system it still, in my opinion a great contributor to the external styles. I would call cross training as going from northern kung fu, then to BJJ, then to boxing, then to......

I'm sure that made less sense but I need to rush off to class now and quit talking about MA and start doing it. :D


Originally posted by MasterKiller
Why go to the market when you have a garden in your backyard? Perfect. :D

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

I know what your point is about the guys bouncing around from system to system, and I agree with you. Why go to the market when you have a garden in your backyard?

Because sometimes, the fruits or vegetables you want can't be grown in your climate.

Not trying to be a smartass, but that's the rationale between crosstraining RADICALLY different systems.

Now, let the flames commence.

[MasterKiller]

in my opinion a great contributor to the external styles. But Taiji is internal and Shaolin is external. There are some fundamental differences in there between the two, just as many differences, one might argue, as between Shaolin and boxing, or boxing and BJJ.


Because sometimes, the fruits or vegetables you want can't be grown in your climate.
Not trying to be a smartass, but that's the rationale between crosstraining RADICALLY different systems. That's a good point, and I guess I agree with it for the most part. However, I also feel that you should be able to find most of what you are looking within your own style, if you look hard enough, and the style is competently taught.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
That's a good point, and I guess I agree with it for the most part. However, I also feel that you should be able to find most of what you are looking within your own style, if you look hard enough, and the style is competently taught.

The problem I see with that is one of depth. Let's illustrate this with an example. Say I want to learn how to strike. If you look hard enough, Judo has striking. Thus, if your logic holds true, I should learn my striking from a Judo coach.

The fact of the matter that other disciplines teach striking more efficiently and in more depth lends me to think that I'd be better off going elsewhere for my striking needs. Judo's great for the standup grappling, but as for training world-class strikers... well... let's just say they haven't produced anyone yet who could go toe-to-toe with a boxer or a muay thai guy.

This is shaping up to be a nice discussion.:)

[yenhoi]

I agree with masterkiller.

The key factors being: a competent expierenced teacher, and a competent [critical thinking] student.

Judo as a 'style' might not be the most "effecient" at teaching striking... but many Judo teachers might be well versed in striking, and in teaching striking.

:eek:

[Golden Arms]

Yeah MK, a lot of the guys who teach Shaolin based arts that are now in their 60's and 70's must be doing an EXTERNAL art :rolleyes: LOL. Buddhist and Taoist systems both have heavy internal work if you make it far enough and dedicate a lot of time to them. Or, for example, is Tid Sien Kuen all about learning how to block with one crossblock while doing a "one finger rules china" salute with your other finger!

Now on the other hand..the stuff taught at shaolin temple nowadays could be for the most part external, but even those guys have some internal skills I am sure....you almost couldnt if you practiced 6 days a week and just knew about breathing into your dantien for example.

[TjD]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger


Aw, you're just jealous you don't get constantly thrown on your noggin. ;)

But to answer the question-- I'm quite partial to the mix of stuff I'm putting together. The Shuai Chiao is awesome, boxing fun and effective, etc..

But I also like what I've tasted from Xing Yi and Southern Mantis. Hell, I'd like to learn it all, but all things considered, I like it where I am.

i dont need to get thrown on it when i get hit on it **** hard enough :D

i'm actually going to start looking into some judo and see what this throwing stuff is all about. just to see it and mabye how i can apply it using my wing chun.

need to get my throwin down before i can do some san da :D

[Brad]

I think before an argument about Shaolin being internal or external takes place there needs to be some sort of agreed upon defenition of internal and external.

[Vash]

Internal: On the inside. :eek:

External: On the outside. :eek:

[/dumb humor]

[Brad]

So would hiding a laxative in someone's food be considered an "internal" attack? :D

[MonkeySlap Too]

Thai Boxing - Love it. Only had minimal experience with it, but always loved fighting these guys. They get it.

Southern Praying Mantis - Okay, I did this for a while, but my teacher moved. Despite the constant bad blood in these circles, I think the system rocks.

BajiQuan - Did a little of this. Teacher moved. (Is it me?) Really impressed by people who can fight with this.

Whatever Frank Shamrock does - I just like how he fights.

DBM - Dog Brothers Martial Arts - if these guys had been around back in the day, I would have hung with them too. Now I'm too old and chubby ;)

That's my initial list. I'm still real happy with everything I currently practice / have trained - but I've seen these schools consistently produce players....so I like'em.

It's a different world when you can admire another school rather be at war with them, eh?

[GreenDragonExt.]

being "at war" with another school is immature IMO, unless of course there's been some sort of direct challenge

all the time wasted flaming another martial art could be more well served with just about anything, from practicing one of your forms to catching something educational on A&E, to reading a good book

[Water Dragon]

Shuai Chiao My first love. It's all that and a bag of chips. Want to practice a traditional system that makes sense, uses stances as they train them, uses forms to train endurance and attributes? Want all kinds of cool toys that will whip you into shape and develop your muscle AND fighting skill? Want to spar every class, compete in tournaments, and THEN learn all those cool "too deadly" moves? Want to take more pain in training than your typical Muay Thai class? Then go do some Shuai Chiao.

Muay Thai The art of Eight Limbs. Fights from either a San Ti or a Cat Stance. Kicks, Punches, Elbows, and Knees. Everybody respects these guys; and they earn it. Tough little ba$tards who like pain almost as much as the SC guys. All around good stuff.

Brazilian Ju Jutsu Hands down, it's the best at what it does. Like it or not, groundfighting exists, and people are training it. Besides, no one has a better answer to the, "What if a 250 pound biker is mounted on your chest trying to play Pop the Gopher on your face" question

Tai Chi Chuan No one develops touch sensitivity to such a high degree. Learn it for that alone. Also has some intriguing ideas on slow movement as a major training tool. The concept can be applied to everything you do.

Kun Tao knives and triangles

Xing Yi and Southern Mantis Vertical Spinal Power!!! VEry cool

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GreenDragonExt.
being "at war" with another school is immature IMO, unless of course there's been some sort of direct challenge

all the time wasted flaming another martial art could be more well served with just about anything, from practicing one of your forms to catching something educational on A&E, to reading a good book

It happens anyway though... like the hatfields and the McCormicks, sometimes there's just bad blood and nobody knows why.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Brad
I think before an argument about Shaolin being internal or external takes place there needs to be some sort of agreed upon defenition of internal and external.

It's quite simple actually. If I do it, it's internal. If you do it, it's external.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
Yeah MK, a lot of the guys who teach Shaolin based arts that are now in their 60's and 70's must be doing an EXTERNAL art :rolleyes: LOL. Buddhist and Taoist systems both have heavy internal work if you make it far enough and dedicate a lot of time to them. Or, for example, is Tid Sien Kuen all about learning how to block with one crossblock while doing a "one finger rules china" salute with your other finger! Do you consider Taiji, Hsing-I, or Bagua practice to be analagous to other internal training? Are the mechanics in these 3 internal systems, in your opinion, consistent with external training? Can someone who only trains in Taiji, Hsing-I, or Bagua be considered an external player?

What would you consider the dividing line between an external art and an internal one.....or is there one at all?

[Shaolin-Do]

Internal, External - Different roads to the same destination.

[ninthdrunk]

I think that the difference between internal and external arts is the meditation. If it is necessary to use meditation to develop the fighting skills of a particular system, then it is an internal system. If it is not necessary, then the system is external. However, the line gets fuzzy when different styles that don't require meditative practices use them anyway. Any style can develop hsing ie type strikes by using the same meditations/breathings. That is the beauty of hsing ie...it translates over to any (maybe) other system that you can train in. Same thing with tai chi. Any system could develop the same sensitivity, speed and power by training using the same techniques.

Internal- chi development is necessary.

External- chi development is a by-product.


That's my take on the question.

Ben

[MonkeySlap Too]

GDE - I was referring to the bad old days when everyone was so concerned about how special THEY were, and how crappy everybody ELSE is, that you couldn't even make friends across styles. I agree with your statement, but perhaps you are too young to get what I mean. Nice attempt at being condescending. How'd you like mine?

As far as external / internal - go read Adam Hsu's Sword Polishers Record - he's has the best view that I've ever found. As you would expect, it is not such a cut and dried equation.

[chen zhen]

Hsing-I, Southern Mantis, Chen style TJQ, Yau Kung Mun, Schuai Chiao, Muay Thai, BJJ, Kali....etc

Some of them i have practiced, some I havent.

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by ninthdrunk
I think that the difference between internal and external arts is the meditation. If it is necessary to use meditation to develop the fighting skills of a particular system, then it is an internal system. If it is not necessary, then the system is external. However, the line gets fuzzy when different styles that don't require meditative practices use them anyway. Any style can develop hsing ie type strikes by using the same meditations/breathings. That is the beauty of hsing ie...it translates over to any (maybe) other system that you can train in. Same thing with tai chi. Any system could develop the same sensitivity, speed and power by training using the same techniques.

Internal- chi development is necessary.

External- chi development is a by-product.


That's my take on the question.

Ben



:rolleyes:

OK...

the meditation thing is just dumb... anything can be meditation, internal, external, etc...

Internal and external are just general refrences to use when talking about a few different arts.. everything has an external and internal component to it... When you try to define these things too detailed you get away from the whole GENERAL refrence thing...

[ninthdrunk]

Right....I dont think that I follow what you are saying. Are you saying that there isnt really a distinction between the two?

Ben

[norther practitioner]

No there is a difference, but it is just a general thing about those arts... once you try to break them down too much you get away from internal/external, you just have the art.... being what it is.

[Shaolin-Do]

Just different roads to the same destination. All external or internal really means to me, is softer or harder movements.

[ninthdrunk]

Norther practitioner-
How would you define an internal style's difference for the sake of discussion on the board. When someone says an internal art, what are they referring to? Someone asked what the dividing line between internal and external systems, or if there is one at all. I was just offering my take on it. I am open to other ideas though. I agree that meditation is a very vague term. That is why at the bottom of the post I reworded it to chi development. Chi development is not necessary in all systems. I could master black tiger and not have the slightest clue about chi kung techniques. Again, that is just my opinion, and I think that is where the line is drawn.



Shaolin-do-

But hsing ie is an "internal" art. The movements of that system are definitely hard and straight line striking; none of the soft circular movements of tai chi and pa kua.


Ben

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by ninthdrunk
But hsing ie is an "internal" art. The movements of that system are definitely hard and straight line striking; none of the soft circular movements of tai chi and pa kua.

Ben


Two misconceptions:

- Hsing I movements are hard (Actually, they may look hard, but they're not. There's no tension at all...just sudden, explosive bursts of 'soft' movement). If you hear a raindrop smashing against your window, it doesn't mean that the drop was coming 'hard'...it just let itself be pulled by gravity. Or check out a whip. The whip is not rigid, but at the end, the crack makes it sound like it's made of wood. Translate that thought to Hsing I, and you'll have the answer.

- Hsing I strikes in a straight line (No...it looks straight, but it's curved...looks curved, but it's straight..and viceversa :D). Same thing with Bagua.

[jun_erh]

felipe- is that quote from American Psycho?

[Felipe Bido]

jun_erh

Yeah, mergers and acquisitions ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

The whole hard / soft thing is badly translated into English. Could the SD guys explain to me what it means to them?

[norther practitioner]

How would you define an internal style's difference for the sake of discussion on the board.

Internal arts are usually just soft... look soft and the goal is usually to be soft with your movements..


When someone says an internal art, what are they referring to?

Taiji, Xing Yi, Bagua, Yi chuan, etc..


? Someone asked what the dividing line between internal and external systems, or if there is one at all.

Not really... It is just a refference, so like when someone says internal, you mind should just be like, ok they are prob. talking about taiji, xing yi, or bagua... not that oh well they try to produce qi or whatever....
qi is a byproduct, not a goal and if don't think you are producing it in your external practice than you are thinking about it in the wrong way.




I could master black tiger and not have the slightest clue about chi kung techniques.

What is the corolation between black tiger and qigong and stuff...
I don't get it.... Are you saying that the internal ma all are qigong? Internal ma and qigong are two seperate animals (that sometimes mate and produce jack asses).


. Chi development is not necessary in all systems.

I produce qi when I walk... I don't get what you are saying, you think about qi in a different way than I do I guess.

[Shaolin-Do]

Qi = Bioelectric energy
Qi transferrence = Qi movement by use of electromotive force

More or less, enzymes breaking down protiens = Qi.

Soft - more gentle movements, more focus on certain accupressure points throughout training from much earlier on than in "hard" styles.
Hard - Fluid, yet mild rigidy compared to soft (yes I know its the same in the end)

[fragbot]

What other styles would everyone like to learn? What skills do you feel that you need to learn to round out your fighting ability?


Styles I might investigate in earnest at some point (NOTE: I currently train two places; if I added more, my wife would probably shoot me):

eagle claw -- they've some elegant qinna.
capoeira -- it looks like scads of fun and they've very fit players. More importantly, any art appealing to dancers will be, er, visually appealing.
harimau silat -- fascinating, unusual, and extreme lower body fitness requirements. Of the little I've seen, I like their leg attacks.

While I should probably do more weapons training (baton or jo), it just bores me to tears. Furthermore, as a general rule, I recognize I'm a poor candidate for systems associated with ninja suits, Korea, or Hawaii. My team playing skills and general cheapness would be a disappointment to Grandmaster MultiLevelMartialArtsMarketing.

[norther practitioner]

I'd really like to get some more eagle claw training.. I've always loved the grappling aspects, but I aslo get a lot of that in taiji.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm very interested in Hung Ga, it seems it has a lot of moves I could use in Shuai Chiao. I start Chen Style Taijiquan next week as well, really looking forward to that.

[neigung]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Internal ma and qigong are two seperate animals (that sometimes mate and produce jack asses)
Now THAT is funny.

Internal or external have little meaning to me. All good kung fu has qigong, whether contained in forms or as a distinctly separate set.
All good kung fu trains, strengthens and toughens the body, the will and the mind. Training that does not encompass these areas (and more) is incomplete.
All techniques, whether hard or soft, linear or circular, internal or external, are done with intent, will and focus.