Attn all Shaolin Do players

[Internal Boxer]

Just curious if any of your guys competed on the MMA scene. It appears there is a hell of a lot of SD bashing that goes on here, if you want to be taken seriously as good fighters then try competing in MMA, then practioners of other arts will not be able to cast doubts over the martial effectiveness of the art. Obviously this does not answer the critics of your historical origins, but hey who gives a crap about lineage if you can produce quality MMA fighters that is what will gain global respect.

becuase of the size of your organisation you would have the "people power" to train for MMA type tournie.:)

[Judge Pen]

It may be a good idea, but my guess is that some fo the powers that be would oppose an organization wide push toward MMA. Individuals my cross-train and branch out on their own, but that would not utilize the "people power" that you have mentioned.

I'm sure that there are MMA fighters with backgrounds, to some extent, in SD but I can't point to any examples. I have heard that Frank Mingione, a 7th degree, had quite a bit of success in the Pan American games in the early 90's, but I don't have any documentation for that assertion.

It'a an interesting idea, but my guess is that SD wants to remain in the realm of TMA for good or for bad.

[Dark Knight]

Is effectiveness the question or lineage? If you are here to say that SD is the ultimate fighting style, then we want some proof other than “My instructor can beat all his students”, or the usual “At the XXX tournament (Closed to outside people) 7th degree onehung guy did a 10 man fight demo”. Then we have questions as to writing checks with your mouth that you cant back cover.

I am sure that is not an issue. I’m sure there are many students that feel SD is the greatest art, but all styles have that, its pride in what you do.

I am not a SD guy, and over the last 25+ years have seen many styles created, many effective and many not. If a SD guy went to UFC and won, would this end all the debates?

It seems that the biggest complaint about SD is its lineage. Is it real Shaolin?

As we debate SD, lets make sure we are debating the right issue, is it effectivness or lineage, or am I really missing the problem.

[MasterKiller]

DK,
You hit the nail on the head.

Besides, a MMA loss, by definition, would only prove that one guy had to study and practice several systems in order to defeat your one Kung-Fu system, whatever that style may be. :D

[Ray Pina]

I have no beef with SD, their claims to shaolin are no less absurd than any local Winch Chun school's.

What I question are ranks like 7th degree. What style? Who gave him that rank? 7th degree? You go to Japan and you have to be a wrecking ball to get 3rd degree.

I thought there are like a handful of 7th degrees in the entire world. I know about this crap because I was a second degree when I was a young teen. Yes, I started at 4 years old, knew all the forms and kept winning tournaments, but I had no business with that rank in my eyes. Then again, what could my teacher do, keep me at brown for the rest of my life? I hate belt systems.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I have no beef with SD, their claims to shaolin are no less absurd than any local Winch Chun school's.

What I question are ranks like 7th degree. What style? Who gave him that rank? 7th degree? You go to Japan and you have to be a wrecking ball to get 3rd degree.

I thought there are like a handful of 7th degrees in the entire world. I know about this crap because I was a second degree when I was a young teen. Yes, I started at 4 years old, knew all the forms and kept winning tournaments, but I had no business with that rank in my eyes. Then again, what could my teacher do, keep me at brown for the rest of my life? I hate belt systems.

Ranking systems are subjective, but SD does at least set up a schedule of material to be learned and tested on prior to rank advancement. Supposedly, the rank advancement started in Indonesia and not America. Reportedly, when Sin came to America he was a 5th degree and that was the highest rank under the rank of grandmaster which was passed down. He reportedly encounted martial artists who were 7th, 8th, or 9th degrees and he reported this to Ie who said, fine, You are now a 9th degree. That's the stroy anyway.

[Dark Knight]

Who promoted him to 10th?

[Ray Pina]

I think his teacher might have been making fun of him and he didn't even know it.

[Judge Pen]

Later Ie promoted him to 10th and grandmaster. I read a translation of the letter that accompanied the promotion, but I don't have a copy.

I don't follow how Ie was making fun of him. I take the story to mean that the degree don't matter and if 9th is equivilant in America to a 5th in Indonesia, then fine. Call it whatever you want to.

[The Willow Sword]

that is a correct assesment of the ranking system in it of itself. AT SD the rank is with SD and SD only. that rank does not extend to any other organizations(i thought that would be obvious to certain people here). As for Sd people going to other tourneys to compete. it has been done before. I went to an AAU tourney in round rock texas and won the mens advanced continuous sparring there and placed second in forms and 3rd in weapons.
but for the most part i have not seen(at least from the texas end of things) where SD students or Black belts went to other tournaments. being one who did not shut myself out of other martial arts styles or the MA community i can say that maybe one of the reasons for Sd people not going to other tourneys and "representin´" is the fact that noone really respects the Sd practitioner(hey its just my opinion in this matter) but i also know that there is a lot of elitest crap that is apparent at Sd and really when you look at it there is this kind of mentality at other schools as well. the only difference is that you see these other schools going to open tournamnets and competeing against other styles and representin thier system. i guess with all the boasting and the claims that SD makes if they were to go to these MMA tournys and lose, it would make them look pretty foolish as to what they claim and hoe effective they think they are. its also funny in that in the SDA(shaolin do association) the words of GM SIn are as follows. "if your primary interest it tournament skills id advise you to seek your training elsewhere, most of what you will learn is too deadly for tournaments, we teach shaolin-do, art of survival".i mean in a nut shell that is what is emphasised,,hahaha and yet now there are all these Sd tourneys now,and now open tourneys that master Mullins hosts. i see a few contradicitions there.
anyway, i have always maintained that if your school and system comes under such scrutiny and disrespect from the rest of the MA community then i think one should make the effort to defend what they do and it should be the founding Practitioners that should do this. But the fact that Sd doesnt go out there and really "represent" themselves shows, in my opinion, a lack of respect or inegrity for anyone else in the martial arts community.
i dont down what is taught at Sd with respect to curriculum, i just dont agree with the politics behind what Sd is about and its hard to escape the politics when you are an Sd teacher and even more so a student trying to connect with other people in other styles .
TWS

[Judge Pen]

TWS,

Politics is a problem in a lot of areas and in several different MAs. That's one of the reasons lineage is emphasized. I think more SD people should go out to other tourney's and I hope to be able to put my money where my mouth is, but I can see the detterant if SD people are as poorly received by reputation alone as some poeple treat us here. I thnk that any allegations of lack of respect or integrity should be on the individual level and not an indictment of the entire organization and everyone in it (like me).

Rank is nothing more than a symbol of materail that you have supposedly learned and does not always correspond to your ability to use that materal.

[Dark Knight]

I have seen other organizations like this. The biggest reason many of these get no respect is because someone in the organization is making bougus claims about lineage or what they are teaching.

Too deadly is a big one. When the students start repeating this and no one has any way of backing it up.

Closed tournaments are another, this is usually so the students cant see what the rest of the world is doing and the bougus claims can never be questioned.

Not allowing students to compete in outside tournaments..see closed tournaments.

Black Belt contracts. Those are big money makers. You make a promise that for a certain amount of money you are going to teach a student until they become a Black Belt. (Most people drop out long before BB and the school keeps the money)

Lot of bad business practices.

I havent run into a SD school and dont know if they do these. But the lineage one sounds like one of them, perhaps a SD guy can expand on this.

Also, shouldnt you have sash instaed of a belt? And the uniforms?

There are a ton of schools that do not teach TMA but thier own style. That is fine, but dont misrepresent yourself and dont try to lie to your students.

[Judge Pen]

DK,

The belt and gi question has been discussed ad naseum before and a search should answer questions.

I totally understand questions about lineage. There's too much misinformation floating around out there, but I don't have the frame of reference to clear anything up other then explain my thoughts on the matter.

As far as BB contracts, I haven't heard of these before. There are professional teachers in SD, but as many, if not more are part time because they love the art. My first teacher was this way. My current teacher is only part time as well.

SD is a large enough organization where we can have a very large closed tournament once a year which is fun to see different schools and teachers and how they teach the same material. I agree that this should be an annual exception and not the rule. I don't think that any school prohibits one from participating in an open tournament and I would like to see more interaction between Sd and other CMA. It would go a long way for understanding on both sides.

I don't like the too deadly claims either. All TMA teach techniques that should not be done in a tournament environment, but that doesn't make the abilities one has not transferrable to a tounament. If that was the case, then one couldn't even spar in class.

I hope this clear up some of your questions on SD.

[Ray Pina]

There are always politics at tournamenrts: Who's throwing it, who's judging. But it's hard to single out a school as SD unless you come in with big patches all over your gi. That's easy, get a fresh patchless gi.

But like I said, I have no problems with SD, just this ranking thing in general.

When I see someone holding a second degree black belt, I should be thinking this guy can kick some a$$ ... not, wow, I bet he knows 15 forms and can do a full split.

As for why I thought his teacher was making fun of him. "Teacher, teacher, I was in America and they have 8th, 9th, 10th degree black belts over there teacher."

Teacher responds: "Ok, my son. You are now an 11th degree."

Student walks out feeling great and powerful, he just rose 6 degrees and did nothing.

Teacher to himself: "What a dim wit. All this time, all this training, and all he cares about are stripes on his belt!" Kind of glad that he could get rid of him so easily, 6 pieces of tape.

BJJ is kind of the only guys now who's belt rankings mean much. You play with a purple belt and it means something. Brown, those guys are tough. Black belt ... not a dime a dozen.

[Dark Knight]

Judo requires you to compete inorder to move up. How well you do will move you along faster.

I really dont have a problem with belt ranking. There is no clear meaning to what a Black belt is. I am with a couple national and international organizations and when we deal with other countries, we hear about come to America for a 10th degree. Europe is getting like that also. But what is the standard for a Black belt?

In BJJ they see you as a Black Belt when you are at the ability of the other Black belts. They judge it on ability. If that is the standard, what about a TKD BB? If he is judged by his peers, thats in TKD not BJJ or Shaolin. So now consistancy is a problem. What defines a Black belt in one system may not be the same in another.

I personally feel that if you are a Black Belt you should be able to back it up, put on the gloves and show you can fight under the stress of a full contact attack, and be able to stay in and hold your ground. A first Degree Black Belt is not superman, but he can get in there.

With the organizations I'm with time in rank and age also come into play. Experience has a lot to do with rank. Frank Shamrock trained for two years before he won his first UFC. But that does not make him a 10th degree Black belt. Experience comes into play for rank, experience will (or should) give more ability. There are only a certain amount of kicks, punches, throws... Experience will give a better understanding of how to use these tools.

We dont have any 45 year old 10th degrees running around in our organizations, there is an expected amount of time in and age that goes with it. Even Kano didnt take the title O'Sensei until late in his life. And we dont have 10 year old Black Belts running around.


Right now you can go to a ton of organizations that will promote you for a small fee (See Phil Porter at US Martial Arts Association) Some people should be promoted and some shouldnt. But with no standard who is to say?

Generally if you stay with National Governing Bodies, they have a standard for rank. When you show up somewhere as what ever rank, you can back it up with a legitimate organization (US National Karate Federation for Karate, US Ju-Jitsu for Ju-Jitsu, Judo has two in the US…) But too many people promote themselves, or have been promoted for money, have little or no standards then push out more “Black Belts” to make it worse.

“Teacher to himself: "What a dim wit. All this time, all this training, and all he cares about are stripes on his belt!" Kind of glad that he could get rid of him so easily, 6 pieces of tape.”

A lot of that going on every day.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
Closed tournaments are another, this is usually so the students cant see what the rest of the world is doing and the bougus claims can never be questioned.

Also, shouldnt you have sash instaed of a belt? And the uniforms?


We used to have big open tournaments in the 60s and 70s. Superfoot Bill Wallace got his start in one of our tournaments, I have a pic of him with GM Sin and a few other of the winners. This was when Shaolin Do was new here in the states and a lot of this was done for promotion.

Like JP stated, the uniform thing has been beat to death. Personally, I like our uniforms, our gis. For one they hold up a lot better in rough sparring than a frog button uniform. I have a 14 oz gi from Dragon Int. that will stand up on its own it is so thick. The snap from this uniform is loud enough to rival those kiia's of the yellow bamboo people.

And sashs don't look good when they become all ratty and torn with age, belts do. :D Granted the belt I am wearing now is over 10 years old and is hardly showing any age. I had to go and buy the dragon heavy duty belt that lasts forever.

[norther practitioner]

When I see someone holding a second degree black belt, I should be thinking this guy can kick some a$$ ... not, wow, I bet he knows 15 forms and can do a full split.

How about someone that knows both?...

By the time I get to "black sash" I'll know at least 15 forms (all building on the same things, not all different systems), etc... I 'm I'm hoping to be able to hold my own competing...

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
That's when you buy a new sash. Wearing a beat-up, raggedy belt does nothing to hold your internal organs in place while you jump around.

Not worried about my internal organs moving around while I jump. I do enough internal workouts that they are just fine. Also my new formed cushy belly keeps it in place as well. Hehe I have to get back to eating right.


Originally posted by MasterKiller
That's not a uniform. It's a Chinese-style top. There are no kung fu uniforms. I wear a T-Shirt and loose cotton pants to work out in. I have to replace my workout shoes more often than I replace my workout pants.
What practical application does snapping your GI have?
Should we all buy matching track suits for class then? I'm afraid people would mistake us for a track team then and say we are not real kung fu because we look like runners. :) What workout shoes do you wear? I have a high priced pair of discipline shoes and a cheap pair of feivue shoes. They both have their pros and cons. I prefer bare footed while we are still training outside. The ground is super slick with the grass and is very uneven, my feet tends to grip it better.

Practical application for a snapping gi? None. But it is an indicator of how much snap you have in your punch. If I am giving a form 110% and my gi is not snapping, something is wrong.

[MasterKiller]

What workout shoes do you wear? I wear Feyues. They have a rounded bottom that really makes one concentrate on balance and root. I wear a hole in the sole every 6 - 8 weeks or so.


Not worried about my internal organs moving around while I jump. I do enough internal workouts that they are just fine. Also my new formed cushy belly keeps it in place as well. Hehe I have to get back to eating right. I would worry about them jiggling, especially if you've gained weight. Cinch it up with a tight sash just to be safe. An ounce of prevention......yada yada yada.

[Ray Pina]

Of course if you keep building on the same system you should know forms, and there's nothing wrong with forms. But there are a lot of form collectors out there that like to dazzle friends and family at BBQs with all their forms, but don't have the skills to stand up for themselves.

You sound like a well rounded MA.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Dark Knight

I really dont have a problem with belt ranking. There is no clear meaning to what a Black belt is.



Very True.


Originally posted by Dark Knight


In BJJ they see you as a Black Belt when you are at the ability of the other Black belts. They judge it on ability. If that is the standard, what about a TKD BB? If he is judged by his peers, thats in TKD not BJJ or Shaolin. So now consistancy is a problem. What defines a Black belt in one system may not be the same in another.



In Sd every black is judged by Sin The and a panel of black that have attained the rank the student is testing for or higher. If he is failed by two people, then he fails the test. That is a black in SD, but you make valid points about other arts.


Originally posted by Dark Knight


I personally feel that if you are a Black Belt you should be able to back it up, put on the gloves and show you can fight under the stress of a full contact attack, and be able to stay in and hold your ground. A first Degree Black Belt is not superman, but he can get in there.



I couldn't agree with you more. I enjoy fighting and I enjoy fighting with gloves and head gear with full contact. I've fought other people in different styles this way and though I can't say I wiped the florr, we all knew we were close in skill. Unfortunately, there are black blets in many systems (including SD) that may not sederve the rank based upon their ability. That problem, however, is not unique to SD and I think it is the exception to the rule.


Originally posted by Dark Knight


With the organizations I'm with time in rank and age also come into play. Experience has a lot to do with rank. Frank Shamrock trained for two years before he won his first UFC. But that does not make him a 10th degree Black belt. Experience comes into play for rank, experience will (or should) give more ability. There are only a certain amount of kicks, punches, throws... Experience will give a better understanding of how to use these tools.

We dont have any 45 year old 10th degrees running around in our organizations, there is an expected amount of time in and age that goes with it. Even Kano didnt take the title O'Sensei until late in his life. And we dont have 10 year old Black Belts running around.



This is very true for most of our senior masters, although I'm confident that all of them can handle themselves if need be despite their age. Experience can never be discounted.



Originally posted by Dark Knight


But too many people promote themselves, or have been promoted for money, have little or no standards then push out more “Black Belts” to make it worse.



I don't see this as prevelant in SD although there may be exceptions I generally feel most people deserve the rank they wear.


Originally posted by Dark Knight


“Teacher to himself: "What a dim wit. All this time, all this training, and all he cares about are stripes on his belt!" Kind of glad that he could get rid of him so easily, 6 pieces of tape.”

A lot of that going on every day.

It does, but I don't think it was the case with Sin The and Ie. I think Ie was saying that he believed Sin to be worthy of comparison with any of these supposed 7th, 8th, or 9th degrees in terms of skill. Why else would he then promote him to the grandmaster?

[MasterKiller]

Why else would he then promote him to the grandmaster? A little something called nepotism. Maybe this is why The' downplays his relationship to Ie?

[Dark Knight]

I don't see this as prevelant in SD although there may be exceptions I generally feel most people deserve the rank they wear.

I have not run across a SD school. I ment many of these comments as general to the martial arts community.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Dark Knight


I have not run across a SD school. I ment many of these comments as general to the martial arts community.

I know. I didn't take anything you said as an affront to SD and took your comments as general. Some of them do apply to SD and I was addressing these comments from my perspective.

MK: Nepotism. :D Maybe, but I tend to think he deserved the title from Ie. I think the man is far from perfect but he still has my respect.

[KC Elbows]

One of the things I have to hand to SD'ers, and this will likely be taken the wrong way, if so, oh well, I think you're decent folk anyway, but, like I was saying, the thing I hand to you people is that while one notable person in your org has one super hokey bio that I don't come close to believing, and lots of big claims, you people still are out there and taking part in the martial arts community at large to some degree, and aren't sort of huddled together and denying the reality of the rest of the martial arts world because many in it might not support the history one of your members espouses. There's a number of schools whose grandmasters claim all kinds of bullcrap that I've seen pretty much close themselves off from reality, because "the infidels don't understand the deadly power of Master X", and they lose out on the deal, because they forget they came to learn martial arts, not defend the claims of their master/teacher. SD folk don't seem to fall prey to that as much. I've visited one of the SD schools before, and I never got the hard sell, I felt the environment was a positive one, and the martial arts, while not my cup of tea, was still martial arts(from somewhere in asia;) ).

On the flip side, I never had the chance to cross hands with anyone, all I saw was a group of advanced students practicing some version of an eagle form. Had that been all I knew of shaolin do, I probably would have more respect for the organization, but directly afterwards I saw that book, and the claims therein. I can understand accepting certain legends as they pertain to ones style, but I think it's a bad habit to accept their creation in the now. As such, I cannot really respect the organization to any great extent, because I think it perpetuates some unnecessary silliness, but at least it doesn't expect universal servitude to those stories from its members, members who are some of the nicest people I've spoken with in relation to martial arts.

In any case, I think most martial arts schools could use a little more friendly full contact. In fact, I think there's a lot of schools commonly considered "legit" that don't step up at all, and are more closed off than the more commonly criticised ones. Just my opinion.

[apoweyn]

The snap from this uniform is loud enough to rival those kiia's of the yellow bamboo people.

Er, what? Who are the yellow bamboo people?

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Er, what? Who are the yellow bamboo people?

:D

I would give anything to see your mental image of "yellow bamboo people" at this point. And thus, I will not tell you of... the yellow bamboo people!

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by KC Elbows


:D

I would give anything to see your mental image of "yellow bamboo people" at this point. And thus, I will not tell you of... the yellow bamboo people!

But those are just legends, surely. :)

[themeecer]

There is a thread on here about the yellow bamboo people. Go check it out.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by themeecer
There is a thread on here about the yellow bamboo people. Go check it out.

Will do. Cheers.

[apoweyn]

Huh. Balinese qi blasters. Good to know.

[Ray Pina]

"If I am giving a form 110% and my gi is not snapping, something is wrong."

Sir, I don't mean any disrespect, but you just revealed your level.

[themeecer]

Sir, I don't mean any disrespect, but you just revealed your level.

Revealed my level? How so? Did I not just say if I was giving a form all I had and if my gi wasn't snapping that something was wrong? That that isn't my regular level of performance? After doing long sets of forms while wearing a weight jacket and wrist and ankle weights you get fatigued near the end of the last few forms. If I were allow allow myself to get so fatigued that I'm not snapping at the end, I need to better condition myself.

[Ray Pina]

You are giving up a lot for that snap, that's pretty much what I was implying. I studied karate for many years, I know how to jurk back the reverse punch to make the gi snap, can do it with a shooto or even a roundhouse kick, any kick or strike.

This of course is wrong! A boxer doesn't pull back his blow at the apex to get a snap, he throws his punch out. Of course there are cut blows where you use a backward power to add depth to a strike, like a hammer blow ... the elbow actually comes back towards you as the fist goes out ... but it won't snap.

There is a difference betweeen a fast strike producing a swoosh, and pulling your strike back for the snap. That's a terrible habit, and used to impress students, girls and judges.

I think the more a sensei or teacher truly knows, the less they rely on forms to kill class time and little gimicks like that to imply some sort of skill.

You know what I'm talking about. Because you know the feeling of kicking or striking the air to create that snap ... it's different when you are going to break ... say four pieces of wood or a brick.

[apoweyn]

Easy there E-Fist. I spent many years in a gi (or dobok). It's not the retraction that makes the snap. It's the extension. It's the arm or cuff (if it's rolled up) of your sleeve slapping against the inside of your elbow or forearm as the punch is extended.

In fact, I'd be highly impressed if someone in a gi could put their arm out slowly and then quickly retract it in a way that produced a snap. It's the straightening. Not the bending again afterward.

That said, I personally don't think the gi is much of a gauge of technique. Particularly not if higher weight gis produce a more satisfying snap.

Taking shots at people's "level" based on this sort of thing isn't really on, in my opinion.


Stuart B.

[Ray Pina]

Sorry, I knew that wouldn't come off well, which is why I excused myself from the beginning.

Having used a gi I'm sure you know what we're talking about then, the "snapping" for affect. Completely different than training for real power striking, like in fighting or breaking.

Now, couldn't you tell where my training focus is by which way I told you I practiced. Why practice form -- if you're going to -- with the wrong intent?

So many people here complain about wushu hurting martial arts, practicing form incorporating the crowd pleasing "snap" has zero martial merit.

You shouldn't hear a sword swing either.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Sorry, I knew that wouldn't come off well, which is why I excused myself from the beginning.

Having used a gi I'm sure you know what we're talking about then, the "snapping" for affect. Completely different than training for real power striking, like in fighting or breaking.

I agree completely. I don't think the gi is a good gauge for power. I don't think snap is a good gauge for power. Logically, if the snap is produced by the sleeve or cuff slapping against the inside of the elbow, bicep, forearm, whatever, the noise is the result of the cuff coming down and the arm coming up. NOT the result of the fist progressing outward.

In other words, the snapping sound has sod all to do with the forward power being generated in that technique. So it's a pretty awful gauge of good technique, really.


Now, couldn't you tell where my training focus is by which way I told you I practiced. Why practice form -- if you're going to -- with the wrong intent?

Yeah. I hear you. But you can't really fault the specifics of themeecer's reasoning if yours are mistaken as well. Right?


So many people here complain about wushu hurting martial arts, practicing form incorporating the crowd pleasing "snap" has zero martial merit.

I agree.


You shouldn't hear a sword swing either.

If the guy's in a position where I need to hear the sword, I think I'm probably sunk.


Stuart B.

[KC Elbows]

I think there's also a bit of a trap people get into by trying to guess other people's "level". Some people are prodigies in one sense, and inexperienced in another. I know two guys who can root to an amazing degree, but that's about all they can do.

Someone can be great at one thing and poor at others. When we try to guess their ability in a broad sense off of their ability in one very narrow task, we can easily be wrong. When we try to do that online, it's even easier to be mistaken.

By the same token, some people so consistently put their feet in their mouths that it's hard to take them seriously. The only sure way to know each others ability online is by post count.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
I think there's also a bit of a trap people get into by trying to guess other people's "level". The only sure way to know each others ability online is by post count.


3766-2434.

in that case apoweyn, kc elbows must be kicking your ass man! ;)

:D

[KC Elbows]

Yes, post count is a highly accurate method. I guarantee it. Go out and fight bikers, you'll see. Just remember, some of the high post count members look a lot like bikers in their leather chaps.

[themeecer]

As was pointed out, I get the snap from the extension not the retraction. You do have a different take on 'reverse punches' though. When we do use those we are taught to pull the hand back twice as fast as we shoot it out so you cause damage on the retraction as well. My teacher used to do a demo where he stands a person against a wall and depresses their stomach with his fist. He then pulls it out as fast as he can and sees what their reaction to it was. He has stopped doing that because he caused some internal bleeding on the last person he did this on.

[Ray Pina]

When you pull the hand back you are giving me 50% off. You punch and do something, then pull it back to chamber and it does nothing ... 50% off. Can you afford this sort of price war against a bigger fighter.

Could it have been the initial pressing of the student -- against the wall to boot -- that caused the internal bleeding ... and not the release? What if I didn't touch you at all and just held my fist a fraction of an inch from your stomach and pulled away? Nothing right? What's missing? THE STRIKE!

I'm sorry if I was a pri(k yesterday .. it was just one of those days where if I heard one more stupid MA comment.

If we are here to promote martial arts and advance it, we have to wake up. We have to start looking at our technique critically. Why chamber your punch in practice if you don't in fighting? Why? Why pull the strike back? Why block side to side? The odds of intercepting are very low, like chancing upon someone on the Y axis when strolling down the X axis. Good luck!

So when you told me you practice your form with a "snap" of your gi, in a boasting manner, I couldn't help but think ... God **** there are a lot of people in this world who are being fooled by their teachers. You're a teacher now. Will you amaze your students the same way, or will you show them how to defend themselves against the bigger, faster, younger guy? This is called martial arts.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Why chamber your punch in practice if you don't in fighting?"

Actually... Most styles that do this forgot why... Its because you are supposed to pull their punches/hand to your waist. Sets them for locks/throws/more punches to the face.
Its funny to see how many places (pretty much all of them) that do this, and have NO CLUE as to why.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by shaolinarab



3766-2434.

in that case apoweyn, kc elbows must be kicking your ass man! ;)

:D

He's the better man. No question about it. I think of myself predominantly as a "mini-KC." Like KC, but one eighth the size.

:)

[apoweyn]

If we are here to promote martial arts and advance it, we have to wake up. We have to start looking at our technique critically. Why chamber your punch in practice if you don't in fighting? Why? Why pull the strike back? Why block side to side? The odds of intercepting are very low, like chancing upon someone on the Y axis when strolling down the X axis. Good luck!

Okay, I dearly wish I'd typed this. Nicely said.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by themeecer
As was pointed out, I get the snap from the extension not the retraction. You do have a different take on 'reverse punches' though. When we do use those we are taught to pull the hand back twice as fast as we shoot it out so you cause damage on the retraction as well. My teacher used to do a demo where he stands a person against a wall and depresses their stomach with his fist. He then pulls it out as fast as he can and sees what their reaction to it was. He has stopped doing that because he caused some internal bleeding on the last person he did this on.

What happened? He pushed his fist into the guy and the guy was fine? Then he retracted it and the guy coughed up blood?

I don't know, man. As you can see, I'm perfectly willing to argue that you guys shouldn't be badgered at every turn. But a claim like that...

Were there x-rays done? Anything?


Stuart B.

[Shaolin-Do]

"If we are here to promote martial arts and advance it, we have to wake up. We have to start looking at our technique critically. Why chamber your punch in practice if you don't in fighting? Why? Why pull the strike back? Why block side to side? The odds of intercepting are very low, like chancing upon someone on the Y axis when strolling down the X axis. Good luck!"
"Okay, I dearly wish I'd typed this. Nicely said."

Ill say it again....
"Actually... Most styles that do this forgot why... Its because you are supposed to pull their punches/hand to your waist. Sets them for locks/throws/more punches to the face.
Its funny to see how many places (pretty much all of them) that do this, and have NO CLUE as to why."
You are supposed to PULL THEIR HAND TO YOUR WAIST. If there was no use for it, why would soo many styles teach it that way?

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by apoweyn


What happened? He pushed his fist into the guy and the guy was fine? Then he retracted it and the guy coughed up blood?

I don't know, man. As you can see, I'm perfectly willing to argue that you guys shouldn't be badgered at every turn. But a claim like that...

Were there x-rays done? Anything?


Stuart B.

one possibility (this is my guess) is that starting from a position in which the abdomen is pushed in, if the arm is retracted at a fast enough speed, it may cause the organs to return to the normal positions in such an uncoordinated and rapid manner (the 'bouncing out') that a few small veins or capillaries rupture from the minor trauma.
kind of like thinking of the unfortunate incident of someone being smashed at the waist by a car, and while he/she still lives (while internal organs are compressed), he/she will die if the car is pulled away from the victim b/c of chaotic retraction of the organs.

of course they are two separate extremes...just trying to reason a possibility without witnessing the story myself.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by shaolinarab


one possibility (this is my guess) is that starting from a position in which the abdomen is pushed in, if the arm is retracted at a fast enough speed, it may cause the organs to return to the normal positions in such an uncoordinated and rapid manner (the 'bouncing out') that a few small veins or capillaries rupture from the minor trauma.
kind of like thinking of the unfortunate incident of someone being smashed at the waist by a car, and while he/she still lives (while internal organs are compressed), he/she will die if the car is pulled away from the victim b/c of chaotic retraction of the organs.

of course they are two separate extremes...just trying to reason a possibility without witnessing the story myself.

Well, I'm no doctor. But maybe that's possible. I have no idea.

The question, to my mind, would be is it reliable enough and effective enough to legitimate that technical practice? In other words, is the rupture of some small veins and capillaries grounds to train the technique that way? And if it were, you'd presumably need evidence that this did in fact happen. I mean, how did they know the guy was bleeding internally? I'm not saying it's impossible. But as E-Fist said, critical thinking. Were there x-rays? Did he bleed from the ears? Or did he simply feel like he was bleeding internally?

That kind of backup would be important, in my opinion, to legitimate training a certain way.


Stuart B.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by apoweyn


He's the better man. No question about it. I think of myself predominantly as a "mini-KC." Like KC, but one eighth the size.

:)

Don't worry, as my posting trails off, the relative size gap is changing. You seem to become a bigger man.

Were I to get off of my high fat, high hostess diet, this size disparity might disappear altogether.

Alternately, were I to take up tai chi, you may as well give up, because I would be fat AND do tai chi, which is like the magic combo, the g-spot for fighting pleasure, as they say. I could do "ward off" with just my man boobs, were I a fat tai chi master. I would be like a man god, like that chubby guy from that viet nam flick, except that punk ass Emilio Estevez wouldn't chop off MY head. I'd tear his punk ass up with the fat tai chi and tell the army that next time, better send someone else from Yung Guns. Like Kiefer Sutherland. Cause, even though his career's been spotty, he's Donald Sutherland's kid.

And even the fat tai chi master sends his props to Donald Sutherland.

Shaolin arab is correct on the theory behind fast retraction. The theory is intended for when hitting soft tissue, like the dan tien. Otherwise, it's just not leaving your arm out there. That's the theory, anyway.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Ill say it again....
"Actually... Most styles that do this forgot why... Its because you are supposed to pull their punches/hand to your waist. Sets them for locks/throws/more punches to the face.
Its funny to see how many places (pretty much all of them) that do this, and have NO CLUE as to why."
You are supposed to PULL THEIR HAND TO YOUR WAIST. If there was no use for it, why would soo many styles teach it that way?

Okay. So you understand something many schools do not.

You're supposed to pull your hand to your waist to set yourself up for locks, throws, and more punches to the face. How are locks, throws, and punches aided by pulling back to the hip?

How does locking benefit from the hand chambered on the hip? Don't you still have to reach back out to lock?

Isn't that true of throwing as well?

And punches to the face. Boxers deliver them routinely without chambering at the hip. What added effect does the hip provide? And are all those things sufficient reason to leave one of your biggest defensive tools down that low?

Let's get some technical talk going.


Stuart B.

[KC Elbows]

Chamber for locks- example: arm bar

you're in the position where you can get your opponent's arm with say, you're right hand. You grap, pull while turning the waist to your right, and you pull their hand back to your chamber position while the bridge of the other arm presses their upper arm and silk reels to make certain it turns over the right amount.

question: some styles chamber to the armpit, some to the waist- why? Is one better for some things than others?

The chamber represents, in this case, not a limb not defending against the attacker, but one atempting to control the attacker. Like a snapshot of a move at execution, or any grab really- at some point, the hands are doing something that isn't defense.

Unfortunately, SD is correct, a lot of people practice this as some sort of idiot's guard.

[KC Elbows]

On what traditionalists refer to as "internal damage":

Sometimes, when you take a heavy hit to the gut(in most schools, this occurs in demos), you get this achey, full feeling in your gut. It hurts and lasts for days and days. It's deep in there, or at least that describes the feeling.

Never knew anyone to get it checked out. However, it don't feel right, that's for certain. Has that "bad pain" vibe in a weird way.

The retraction method isn't a particularly efficient method of getting this feeling. More reliable is power dropping onto the dan tien from above, sort of in and down. This is my opinion, and I'm no expert, 'til I learn the fat tai chi.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Chamber for locks- example: arm bar

you're in the position where you can get your opponent's arm with say, you're right hand. You grap, pull while turning the waist to your right, and you pull their hand back to your chamber position while the bridge of the other arm presses their upper arm and silk reels to make certain it turns over the right amount.



When you turn your waist back to the right, the natural inclination is to pivot on the left leg so that the right leg goes back, which is okay, methinks. Just forgot a detail.

[Ray Pina]

I never chamber, boxers never chamber, fencers don't chamber, I've never seen a wrestler chamber, only stupid karate and kung fu chamber.

Now, I understand using the strong leverage of pulling the arm in (it shouldn't be too far out to begin with, but) when breaking or throwing ... BUT NOT THAT WAY!

You are going to stand square to me and pull your arm straight back to your waist? What am I doing? Can't I just follow you in and slam my body into you?

This sort of thing has to be accompanied by a step out, or pivit, something you don't see guys holding horse stance throwing reverse punches doing.

Taiji's "li" movement also does this incorrectly, pulling the other guy right into them.

I understand WHY they do it. But ask again, why do this?

I know it's traditional, 200+ years old. I consider that an antique. No one shows off their 1998 IBM.

[Ralphie]

I think that chambering is taught just so people can understand the mechanics of a punch. IME, after a short while this is seldom used, as it is impractical. I may be wrong on the physics, but if you don't retract, even if slightly, won't the force of the punch be absorbed somewhat back in your fist? An example is a car that hit's a brick wall, the force travels through the wall, but rebounds back toward and into the car. The whole "internal bleeding" thing was kinda hokie, but hell anything is possible I guess.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Okay. So you understand something many schools do not.

You're supposed to pull your hand to your waist to set yourself up for locks, throws, and more punches to the face. How are locks, throws, and punches aided by pulling back to the hip?"

Example - Say you throw an intentional backfist to draw the opponents guard. Grab their hand. Where do you pull it? Bring it towards you waist - where your power is. Tons of things you can do from here. Thats the only way it helps to pull to the hip, to set up for locks/throws/ect.
Another example with punches- Same scenario, but when you have their opposite hand to your waist, they no longer have a legitimate guard for their face. You can freely punch with your left.


"How does locking benefit from the hand chambered on the hip? Don't you still have to reach back out to lock?"

Pulling to the hip is for post punching, not for starting from there. You can use your other arm to set locks.

"Isn't that true of throwing as well?"
Im afraid I dont understand.

"And punches to the face. Boxers deliver them routinely without chambering at the hip. What added effect does the hip provide? And are all those things sufficient reason to leave one of your biggest defensive tools down that low?"
Power is mainly derived from the hips, the turning motion. Just think of the power youll have smashing your left hand into someones face while simultaneously pulling their guard down to your waist with the right. You dont leave your hands down there, its just another training tool. Kinda like low low stances in forms.
Edit: sorry it took so long to reply, had to sneak in a quick nap in the back. :eek:

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I never chamber, boxers never chamber, fencers don't chamber, I've never seen a wrestler chamber, only stupid karate and kung fu chamber.

Now, I understand using the strong leverage of pulling the arm in (it shouldn't be too far out to begin with, but) when breaking or throwing ... BUT NOT THAT WAY!

You are going to stand square to me and pull your arm straight back to your waist? What am I doing? Can't I just follow you in and slam my body into you?

This sort of thing has to be accompanied by a step out, or pivit, something you don't see guys holding horse stance throwing reverse punches doing.

Taiji's "li" movement also does this incorrectly, pulling the other guy right into them.

I understand WHY they do it. But ask again, why do this?

I know it's traditional, 200+ years old. I consider that an antique. No one shows off their 1998 IBM.

First, boxers don't grab in that sense, so they wouldn't chamber. Old school fencers grabbed, but now they leave that hand floating, when in old usage wasn't it doing more than that?(meaning dueling, using other weapons, etc).

Second, I agree, it shouldn't require that big a motion. But the basic idea is the same, really, just exaggerated.

Yes, footwork is important.

Horse and punch is a bad analogy, imo. An example of the technique in a styles form would be better, since the form is supposed to be the mechanics in usage. But you are correct, horse and punch would be too static of footwork.

On the IBM thing, I can't say I disagree. The core form to the system I practice doesn't chamber once that I can think of. But the idea is still in there, just subtler.

[KC Elbows]

And again, if you're not grabbing, there's no reason to chamber. That rotational power can be achieved without the exaggerated arm motion.

[Shaolin-Do]

Reiterating my pervious post, the reason for practicing so in a horse stance is just another training tool. Moving your hands that far helps work speed as well. Practicing getting punched at while your guard is at your waist will get your speed up considerably.
"well your hand will never be down there in a real fight"
(I know no one said this, just saving time)
How many people throw sucker punches? hmmm? :)
Saying why practice this way is like saying why even practice horse? Or bow stance? Its a developmental excersise.

[KC Elbows]

In horse and punch(or basically, practicing punching without working stance), I would say you're better off not chambering, and using the other hand to guard, because it's more applicable. If footwork is added in(a rear pivot, say), then the chamber might make sense, but if a student's not practicing that power while still having a guard, that's gonna give them troubles.

I think the problem people have with the guard is that there are so many schools that insist on using it with no apparent distinction.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by KC Elbows


Don't worry, as my posting trails off, the relative size gap is changing. You seem to become a bigger man.

Were I to get off of my high fat, high hostess diet, this size disparity might disappear altogether.

Alternately, were I to take up tai chi, you may as well give up, because I would be fat AND do tai chi, which is like the magic combo, the g-spot for fighting pleasure, as they say. I could do "ward off" with just my man boobs, were I a fat tai chi master. I would be like a man god, like that chubby guy from that viet nam flick, except that punk ass Emilio Estevez wouldn't chop off MY head. I'd tear his punk ass up with the fat tai chi and tell the army that next time, better send someone else from Yung Guns. Like Kiefer Sutherland. Cause, even though his career's been spotty, he's Donald Sutherland's kid.

And even the fat tai chi master sends his props to Donald Sutherland.

Shaolin arab is correct on the theory behind fast retraction. The theory is intended for when hitting soft tissue, like the dan tien. Otherwise, it's just not leaving your arm out there. That's the theory, anyway.

We talking "Dirty Dozen" Donald Sutherland? Or "Art of War" Donald Sutherland?

These things matter. :)

[MasterKiller]

Or bow stance? Bow stance is good when trying to avoid a double-leg take down; it's also used to maintain root when someone tries to push you.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
And again, if you're not grabbing, there's no reason to chamber. That rotational power can be achieved without the exaggerated arm motion.

Still, you and SD have a good point. I was thinking about how an already chambered fist wouldn't be beneficial to locks, throws, etc. Not how the act of chambering itself is beneficial to locks and throws.

That said, the incidences in which that's viable don't seem frequent enough to warrant practicing punching that way all the time. But that's just me.

And I'm still up for more discussion of it of course. Better the technical talk than the bickering (my own bickering included).


Stuart B.

[KC Elbows]

It's a wide world of Donald Sutherland, but you clearly understand these things. I'm going with a vintage Klute Donald Sutherland, the Donald Sutherland that hookers just love. Cause that's something a fat tai chi master can dig.

But back to topic before we tangent off to James Coburn.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Bow stance is good when trying to avoid a double-leg take down; it's also used to maintain root when someone tries to push you."
The same way horse is good to drop into when certain locks are applied.
My point more or less however, was that you dont necessarily "fight" from these stances.

"I would say you're better off not chambering, and using the other hand to guard, because it's more applicable."
Why not practice chambering when punching from horse, and not chambering when punching from a normal stance?

[KC Elbows]

I agree, punching that way with mindless repitition is silly. I also think there's better ways to teach the idea. Really, I think it's an example of dumbing it down too much.

[Shaolin-Do]

May very well be. Theres a reason for training methodologies however... If it was useless why would it be so predominant in all the kung fu and karate styles? Its just been forgotten why its done. Would never over emphasize it either.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
It's a wide world of Donald Sutherland, but you clearly understand these things. I'm going with a vintage Klute Donald Sutherland, the Donald Sutherland that hookers just love. Cause that's something a fat tai chi master can dig.

But back to topic before we tangent off to James Coburn.

Oh, I'm in like Flint, pal. :)

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
[B
Why not practice chambering when punching from horse, and not chambering when punching from a normal stance? [/B]

Because the "pull" really should be paired with supporting footwork, imo, if you're gonna practice the concept this way. If you're standing toe to toe punching someone(assuming they've been broken down and you're finishing them/giving a flurry), you aren't going to chamber, again, imo. So, in stationary practice, why chamber? For a chin na, if stationary, you've got relatively little body behind the chin na. For me, I like to play strong advantages, so to reduce my advantages by not using my mass against isolated targets of little mass, just is taking a risk.

However, I know we're relating this as a training exercise, not a straight technique. However, I think the step from exercise to the technique is so small that students can just be shown both at once, the hands and feet. I don't think it needs to be dumbed down to that extent.

Makes sense?

[Shaolin-Do]

Certainly. But i also see its place.
How would you suggest incorporating this movment with stepping drills however?

[KC Elbows]

I think there's a danger in saying "it's been practiced this way for centuries, so it must be good". We'd still be center of the universe if that were so.

IMO, the best way to view it is "if I understand it's use, if I am competent with it, and can rule out personal failing in it's execution, and it is still not the best, then it is not the best, and can be improved".

The old masters I'd like to live up to are the ones who were concerned with improving their arts. I respect the ones who pass it along, but the ones who make improvements are the ones I admire. I may never manage a single improvement in what I do, but I will most certainly try.

[KC Elbows]

With stepping drills:

just pair it with a pivot step either back or forward.

EDIT: since it's a basic drill, I'd say the hand that ends up lead should also be the lead footwork, i.e. punching right hand, right lead stance at the end. This could represent a basic "drop his lead hand and punch through the opening", I suppose.

[Shaolin-Do]

"I think there's a danger in saying "it's been practiced this way for centuries, so it must be good". We'd still be center of the universe if that were so."
Its not necessarily saying "its been practiced this way for centuries so it must be good", its more like saying "theres gotta be a reason it stood the test of time whereas other training methodologies didnt" on that same note, wed still be thinking the world was flat. We realized better however, and changed ideas. No one ever changed the reverse punches. Maybe stepping slightly forward with each punching hand (so the returning fist goes to the rear side) would be more reasonable?

[Ray Pina]

"Grab their hand. Where do you pull it? Bring it towards you waist - where your power is"

Do you have any clue how open you leave yourself? What, are you the only one with two hands? What about my other hand? Putting your hand to your waist, you've opened your own door.

...

Bow-n-arrow stance is great if you're shooting arrows from atop a castle. You limit your reach and your only have balance in two directions <------>

Same with horse.

...

As for root, I am not a tree. I don't root, I want mobility. Again, check boxers. There footwork is natural. Look at SHing-I. Drive off the back leg and get the distance but quickly follow it back up, don't stay in bow and arrow. The comma(,) is in the wrong place. I reapt, the comma is in th wrong place.

...
To view technique in the sense that I block your right with my right and then punch you with my left is wrong. You're sort of even with the other guy ... he has another hand too. Who's faster.

How about this: Cross hand block righ to right. Then, without waiting, keep charging in but simply raise your right elbow (while still holding on) to jam up everything, including his left. Doesn't matter if he punches high or low ... the elbow does the blocking. Now you have used one arm to cancel two. Now you can hit clean and clear with your left.

[KC Elbows]

Actually, I think some DID change the horse and punch. Aside from hybridization, internal kung fu seems to have been the last big change, and the internal styles do not necessarily all practice the horse and punch, from my limited experience.

[Ray Pina]

You're right. Taiji still has some horse and bow-n-arrow in it, but Hsing-I and Ba Gua kind of make fun of that sort of thing. And also, to be honest, once they came on the scene you didn't hear much about Shaolin anymore ... only the farmers in the south, sort of like Alabama. Ironically, they also had the most to gain by getting the hell out of dodge, so we tend to see more of these styles here.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Do you have any clue how open you leave yourself? What, are you the only one with two hands? What about my other hand? Putting your hand to your waist, you've opened your own door."

Eh?
Squared off. You punch with your right. I grab it with my right and pull to my waiste. You are now leaned over, while I am in a nice position to slap you around any way I so please, and your left hand is d@mn near useless.

Edit: Im just arguing the point because I can. :eek:
:D

[KC Elbows]

EF, I'm not sure I agree with your position on a couple things. First off, bow stance. Bow is almost universally in use, in fencing it is the lunge, even jkd's front weighted ready stance is functionally not too different from a bow, imo.

Second, while I agree, root(as a concept) cannot beat mobility, root does come into play on throwing. The ability to be mobile and suddenly root for the money shot is, imo again, common in boxing, SC, judo, etc.

Hsing yi does not lack root at all. That back leg catches up, and the practitioner at the end does not sway or wobble or whatever, because they have root at that moment, not during movement, when root does not apply, only when root is needed.

However, I totally agree that chambering is bringing your fist outside of the action to a degree that is unnecessary.

[KC Elbows]

All this proves is that internals are superior in every way, shape and form, except for the lack of the 640 kick. I swear, when I become a tai chi master, I will develop the slow no-touch yang style 640.

[Shaolin-Do]

And standing in a super deep horse stance to get a hip throw in unneccesary. You do it to help develop.
:)

[MasterKiller]

WTF is a 640? I've seen sport Karate guys do 540s.

[themeecer]

Ok this thread is moving too fast, I am forgetting who I am supposed to be responding to. Not only for the extra damage the retraction causes do we at times reverse punch, but also to keep it from getting grabbed. I never leave a limb out there to be grabbed. I am very good at hooking a leg after I block it, most of the time I do it unconsciously. This really isn't that hard when someone leaves their leg up there asking for you to grab it. The same thing with fists.

[Shaolin-Do]

One of our crane forms has a 540. id never try to use it in a fight, but it looks hella cool when you pull it off.
:)

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
WTF is a 640? I've seen sport Karate guys do 540s.

What a dumb question. Clearly, it's a hundred better.

Geez. Amateurs.;)

[KC Elbows]

I mean, how are you dealing with attackers behind and slightly to your left?

You don't know the 820, do you?:eek:

[Shaolin-Do]

Thats what chi blasts are for, dumb@ss.
:eek:
So did we exhaust this topic?

[Ralphie]

How about this: Cross hand block righ to right. Then, without waiting, keep charging in but simply raise your right elbow (while still holding on) to jam up everything, including his left. Doesn't matter if he punches high or low ... the elbow does the blocking. Now you have used one arm to cancel two. Now you can hit clean and clear with your left.

Your talking about tactics now. In fact, I believe what you describe here is a basic cma "position", called closing off. This position allows you, as long as you're controlling the elbows and knees of your opponent, to attack with little exposure yourself to your opponent. The opponent has to escape this position in order to attack and defend. In-close fighting like this also allows you to use the core of your body more effectively to add more power to strikes. Some of the other things like stances and so forth are training methods. When taken in context, what's so wrong about training these things?

[Shaolin-Do]

AFAIK, nothing. Otherwise they would have been lost with the ages and new training methodologies introduced.

[Ray Pina]

Shaolin-Do. Just because you pull my arm down doesn't mean I lean over. Can't I come in? Can't I even roll the elbow and shoot my fist towards you? This How much do you weight? I'm 200 lbs. Do you think you can collapse me so easily? My point? Don't count on your strenght. Count on technical power and technique. What you describe is strong technically, but weak in technique -- you leave yourself very open and haven't fully controlled me yet ... punching me only completely opens you at this point

KC Elbows. I hear what you are saying. I prefer to train mobility over root but I am still very stable. I held horse stance from 4 years old to 13 years old doing karate, again later doing Hung Gar. So my opinion is not based on "my teacher told me so." It's based on my teacher proved it to be so to me and I later went out and tested it to find it to be so for me too. I get a sense from reading your posts that you are no so different.

As for the fencer. Yes, in movies they lunge. Get a newer DVD on fencing. They are following up the back foot ala Hsing-I style already. There is no mobility with the lunge. You get me ... great. If not, good luck once again!

Also, I'm not saying internal is better. I'm simply asking folks to critically think. Shoalin Do, your answers are kind of narrow, ala My right stops your right and I can punch you with my left but fore some reason your unblocked left can do nothing. Are we all sleeping while you train?

A lot of schools train to hit harder, block faster. I'm suggesting we look at the "HOW."

[Shaolin-Do]

lol. Im not saying "thats what Id do".
Im saying "thats the application". get from it what you want. In a real situation, Im gonna go for a distraction and a throw. Simple as that.
And btw.. The counter you described, you would be punching your left hand over your right arm, which is being held. Not much power there.
From your responses you dont seem to understand the example Im giving.
Edit: Im 6' 170 or so. Dont hold too much on weight tho... Its not an accurate way to determine strength, speed, technique.... Its a crude way to determine strength, but not accurate.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
KC Elbows. I hear what you are saying. I prefer to train mobility over root but I am still very stable. I held horse stance from 4 years old to 13 years old doing karate, again later doing Hung Gar. So my opinion is not based on "my teacher told me so." It's based on my teacher proved it to be so to me and I later went out and tested it to find it to be so for me too. I get a sense from reading your posts that you are no so different.

No, I kind of thought that's what you were getting at. There's a point at which there is no distinction, just moving or ready to move.


As for the fencer. Yes, in movies they lunge. Get a newer DVD on fencing. They are following up the back foot ala Hsing-I style already. There is no mobility with the lunge. You get me ... great. If not, good luck once again!

I see what you're saying. Yes, it is very dedicated. I can agree there. I guess I tend to think of the catch up technique with that stance as a "conservative bow", if that makes any sense. In the case of fencing, a conservative lunge. And since that matches the footwork I use much closer than the deep bow, we are pretty much on the same page there. I'll have to check out newer fencing vids. Ever read Aldo Nadi?


Also, I'm not saying internal is better. I'm simply asking folks to critically think.

I recognize this. I was joking with the internal thing, though I do feel that the more up to date kung fu styles incorporated a lot of the ideas commonly found in internal styles, and I think the ones that didn't do suffer from some archaic practices.

[Ray Pina]

SD ... all my punching comes from what you would describe as an uppercut -- and finds its way very nicely to the chin in that scenario. That, by the way was not said in theory, I base my entire fighting on using my elbows to shield so I know it works

Either I punch your incoming right with my right from below and automatically step in, raising the right elbow to shield and upper cut with the left (this is called Pow Kuen in Hsing-I by the way) or I punch your left with my right from below and step in the same way with the left uppercut but now turn out that left elbow to blow your other blow. Either way my forearms are always like this: || and I'm always doing the same thing.

That's why I've said in the past I don't really react to the other guy.

Side note: consider all straight punching -- including reverse punch -- a lowsy jab. Straights, hooks, upper cuts and overhands all come from the uppercut delivery. It makes use of the same big power we were discussing before (rotating at the should/back).

Well, I'm going to cool it a little bit because this was a "heated" debate. And I find it kind of silly arguing over technique on the internet. Too bad we couldn't get together when I was out there a few weeks ago.

[ninthdrunk]

Evolutionfist-

Hi! I practice shaolin do (say what you will). We obviously pull a lot of techniques to the waist (actually a little higher). I also like the way that our white crane system teaches the use of elbows. I do a whole bunch of my blocking and covering with the elbows also. I am very interested in this style that you talked about. I am having a hard time understanding (or maybe Im not). You actually strike the incoming puch with a punch and then drive your elbow in as an uppercut? If you wouldn't mind going into a little more detail I would love to read about it. Or better yet, If you are ever going to be in the Ithaca area we could get together. I have some really nice techniques that involve applications that have pulls to the waist in them that I wouldnt mind discussing and sharing. If you dont want to post here, just pm me!

Thanks,

Ben

[Shaolin-Do]

"Too bad we couldn't get together when I was out there a few weeks ago."
Eh? You were in Satown?

[Ray Pina]

Sorry, confised you with a Minn. guy I was going to meet up with for dinner when I was there a couple of weeks ago.

Hey, we're just experiencing differences in aproach due to our style. If you are pleased with your style, that's all that matters in the end. If it works for you.

Ninthdrunk, I'd love to. I'm finishing a project I'm working on but when I'm done I'll PM you. Also, if you ever come down to NYC shoot me an e-mail. Lot's of martial arts going on here. I can introduce you to my master -- he has students from Philly, Conn., ect. who come out on weekends. I have some BJJ friends, TKD, karate, Hung Gar and WIng CHun guys we can play with. All competitive, but good spirited.