how do you manage your waist?

[Phenix]

how do you manage your waist while doing YJKYM or Zhuang or SLT?

[TjD]

i settle it on steel wrapped in cotton :)

sometimes forward, sometimes relaxed; depends on my mood.

both have their uses, so does the transition between them.

[Mckind13]

I use the Mystic Hula Hoop!

:P

[AndrewP]

If you've ever seen a picture of me then you know my waist manages me.

[yuanfen]

Hey Andrew P. We must be bros.!!!

Managing the waist in America- surpasses
the logic of the myth of sisyphus.

Hence, sustained wing chun practice
is my rock!!

[aelward]

sit-ups, regular cardio exercise. Even still, the waist is slowly taking over....

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Somewhere in the middle of Heaven & Earth is where our waist can be found. It is the center of our being and the root of our movement. During my practice we always move the waist and then all else follows. Subtle of course.


Regards,

[yuanfen]

Jim- I dont know the details of what you do but if you begin
with the waist- it sounds a bit taijish. WC and taiji imo involve quite different dynamics even in its subtleties.

goes for hula hooping too.

joy

[Phenix]

why is lots of WCK pictures when people do SLT/SNT or Bai Jong Or Chang Jong or ..... either the waist shows stuck rigid and under the waist is clamping rigid or the waist is floating and under the waist look like TKD standing?

Is that the Nature of the original of WCK?
When one Clamping a Bottle with Knees what happen to the waist?

[Jim Roselando]

Hi Joy,


WC and Taiji are indeed different. This is WC. Read below;


Kuen Yau Sum Faat!


Fist shoots from the heart!

Heart (sum) = Center

Real meaning;

Fist shoots from your center of gravity!

The Waist!


This is very common in numerous martial art including WC. Seeing how our roots "most likely" stem from Crane we can indeed see how the waist is also the nucleas for their movement as well!

Combine that with the open/close/rise/sink and bingo. If you do not throw your power you will not make use of your whole body IMO.

Perhaps you may want to look into that as I know your WC is a bit different from mine and the way we use the body is also a bit different. I am not saying one is right or wrong but they both have different body mechanics powering the tools.

Perhaps I will ask Kieth if he can explain some of the similarities and some of the differences he has found since he has explored this approach as he has a lot of experience with the Fong approach and has also some experience in Koo Lo approach.


See ya,

[PaulH]

I'm not sure of the fine terminology differences between the hips and waist, but there is no telling power without their usage in the strike. Here lies the fine difference of friendly patting to a serious killing blow all by one's good grace and favor. As such it cannot be rigid.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Hi Jim, Joy

IMHO,

Kuen Yau Sum Faat means punch issue from Heart and that heart is not the physical heart. Because there are kuen Kuit phrases before and after this single Kuen Yau Sum Faat phrase.

As for the Physical location.
Actually, there are the control center, the local center, the power generator.... different things.

And if one using the Kuen Yau Sum Faat as the physical heart area. Then, one adopt to the clamping of elbow and the lower body is tend to rigidly clamp. thus, the body break into to pice... so.... can't say wrong but it become heavy localized....

Well, WCK is not TaiJi but human is human right?
on top of human mountain not much different,
but some uses ball point and some uses fountain pen.

Just my two cents.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,


Somewhere in the middle of Heaven & Earth is where our waist can be found. It is the center of our being and the root of our movement. During my practice we always move the waist and then all else follows. Subtle of course.


Regards,

this sounds very taiji. i have to disagree. mabye you have been doing too much standing post? :D

the root of our momement comes from the ground.

imho, the center of "our" being is unimportant apart from knowing that we can find the center of our opponents. the vast vast majority of the time our weapons are off center (as we can't have a a fist or a foot in our waist - dont read as off the centerline). the center of our opponents being is much more important as thats what we seek to destroy :)

[PaulH]

Jim or Hendrik,

On top of my head what do you mean by open/close/rise/sink? something like this + ?

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Jim or Hendrik,

On top of my head what do you mean by open/close/rise/sink? something like this + ?

Regards,

Pillow Dummy :D

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


this sounds very taiji. i have to disagree. mabye you have been doing too much standing post?

Its ok to disagree! So, when you move your body what part intiated the move? Lets say for a shift or a step?

BTW: I dont know anything about Taiji as the most I ever did was one lesson to check it out. Not for me! Standing post? 15 minutes a day lately.

the root of our momement comes from the ground.

Your structure connect to the ground but when you move the whole body as a unit it has to start from your center of mass otherwise you end up with only local power.

imho, the center of "our" being is unimportant apart from knowing that we can find the center of our opponents.

Totally disagree! How does one control anothers center if they do not fully make use of their own center? If you do not use your waist in conjunction with your movement then it will most likely be kind of robotic.

the vast vast majority of the time our weapons are off center (as we can't have a a fist or a foot in our waist - dont read as off the centerline). the center of our opponents being is much more important as thats what we seek to destroy

Attacking your opponents center is stategy but using your own center is how one achieve Whole Body power IMO.


Nice speaking with you.

[Atleastimnotyou]

i agree with jim 100%

[troy fuller]

Hello Jim,

In our wing chun movement begins at the waist/hips as well.

Hi Joy, -- could you elbaborate on the dynamics of your systems method of movement?

Troy

[PaulH]

Jim,

I can't pass Hendrik's dummy pillow test. Do you mind helping me a little, just a little? Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Hi Hendrik-

Again a long post of mine ended up in cyberspace by punching the wrong button. I dont know apparently where the center of the key board is!

But I do not know what photos pics you allude in your generalizations.

In any case- tofu stomach- cotton belly--- I have plenty of both without doing taiji. (I have had very good exposure to first rate taji and wing chun theory and have a sense of the differences)The ygkym is the basis of my standing post. And good chum kiu
controls the dynamics of evrything as power arising low is transferred via the waist to the hands.
I don't import anything that is not good Ip Man wing chun. No smuggling of taiji waist usage, karate or judo hip usage, no boxing shoulder loading or falling step--though a quixotic knee of mine
makes its own appearances. Its a generic "I" that I am using btw not a self preoccupied I)

(Jim- as you know -I don't do koo loo wing chun either)

Hendrik-The pigeon toed stance does not mean that the knees are rigid
or the waist or the hips or the buttocks.
The knees are aligned and always coordinated together and springy and the chum kiu turn done well teaches power coming from the ground up and going wherever you want it to go. The waist is not stiff but plays its role in the chain of controlled power and using the entire mass.. In wc like taiji- something moves- everything moves- but the chain of power is quite different in the two arts.
I dont know whether that conforms to your conception of original wing chun.

I am going to put some tofu in my belly for lunch- just to be sure!:-

PS. Troy- my old JAMA article describes my position pretty well.
It is at my site<www.azwingchun.com>
The COORDINATED knees get the first impulse to control and move the structure. ,,, like controlling a pencil or pen for writing
your fingers control it at alow point not at the middle-though you are aware of the weight of the pencil or pen and adjust your fingers accordingly. The waist is very important in wing chun- otherwise power transfer from the botton will be jerky. If you use
the waist or hips for initiating the generation of power the chances are thare will be a bobbing effect and your center will rise or dip too much- and you will be toast for being taken down or thrown or pulled or pushed. Not too worry- I am not offended if others do things differently. I am used to the discussion of perspectives and ideas.
No bobbing- good structure- relaxed- right position- the arrow flies. The wing chun arrow punch is not a boxingpunch, a karate punch or a taiji or hsing I punch,
And with the cordinated knee structure you can ride on subways, boats, buses and trains, ski, play volley ball and make adjustments without beginning at the waist.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,

**me**
this sounds very taiji. i have to disagree. mabye you have been doing too much standing post?
**end me**

Its ok to disagree! So, when you move your body what part intiated the move? Lets say for a shift or a step?

BTW: I dont know anything about Taiji as the most I ever did was one lesson to check it out. Not for me! Standing post? 15 minutes a day lately.



when i move my body its initiated by the legs with the clamping of the YGKYM. this means its initiated by the feet and the ground using the clamping of the legs and the waist. not only does this clamp my root onto the ground, but its also much quicker and rooted than just shifting with the waist.

again for the steps, the clamping of the YGKYM drives my body forwards or backwards, and the power and speed of this clamping is increased by the waist.

depending on just the waist is too slow and not rooted enough, without the clamping and using the ground and by generating the motions with the waist, you're uprooting yourself.




**me**
the root of our momement comes from the ground.
**end me**

Your structure connect to the ground but when you move the whole body as a unit it has to start from your center of mass otherwise you end up with only local power.

**me**
imho, the center of "our" being is unimportant apart from knowing that we can find the center of our opponents.
**end me**

Totally disagree! How does one control anothers center if they do not fully make use of their own center? If you do not use your waist in conjunction with your movement then it will most likely be kind of robotic.

**me**
the vast vast majority of the time our weapons are off center (as we can't have a a fist or a foot in our waist - dont read as off the centerline). the center of our opponents being is much more important as thats what we seek to destroy
**end me**

Attacking your opponents center is stategy but using your own center is how one achieve Whole Body power IMO.

Nice speaking with you.

using your center of mass and initiating the motions there are entirely two different things. if the motions begin at the center of mass, how can you be using it to power the strikes? you're only using structure and muscle power.

if you move your center of mass (and if you read my above comments on how the clamping of the YGKYM and the ground accellerates the center of mass) then you are really using it to generate power. using the clamping nature of YGKYM and the power of the ground you can accelerate the center of mass very quickly, thus hitting with more mass then simply starting your strikes from the center and using muscle power once structure has been achieved.

this is the difference between hitting someone with a brick, and hitting them with the whole **** wall :D

**edit for spelling, and minor formatting errors**

cheers,

[Phenix]

Hey Joy,

it is just some opinion for discussion. Don't have to take it serious.

[yuanfen]

P.S.

I am quite aware that there are different ways of generating power and what i do is likely to be different from a whole host of perspectives- possibly TWC, koo Loo, Hendrik's Cho family and others.

But I am fairly sure that I am in the mainstream of several Ip Man lineages. Sometime ago I saw more similarities than differences with one friend of mine in the WSL tradition who had studied with Louison and Ng Chun Hong. There is someone in the valley here who began with TST
and another who studied with Lok Yiu- small world. More similar than different.

Hendrik- sure it's all the human body but there so may ways to deal with the body efficiently. The (low) dan tien is important but it can be used ina variety of ways in kung fu.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik to Joy:

it is just some opinion for discussion. Don't have to take it serious.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Joy to hendrik---

you gotta remember-my perspective.
Laughter is healthy.
I am nota Platonist or an Aristotelian.
The gods are crazy- and play dice.
Rafael Sabatini's novel Scaramouche (?)
made ino to a movie long ago begins with the statement that the
main protagonist knew that the world was absurd.
Politics is serious business- it kills people- and occasionally gives them justice.

KFO forum hasn't killed anyone yet to the best of my knowledge-
I never take it seriously. The love of the art leads me to sometimes share, mostly listen, banter and often laugh.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Travis,


when i move my body its initiated by the legs with the clamping of the YGKYM. this means its initiated by the feet and the ground using the clamping of the legs and the waist. not only does this clamp my root onto the ground, but its also much quicker and rooted than just shifting with the waist.

Speed of movement would not be the case here. Example: If you initiate with the feet then the body catches up yet if you intiate with the waist the body is already there! Rooting comes from a few things. One would certainly be Yi. Another would be the structural sunken alignment and relaxed deep breath IMO.

again for the steps, the clamping of the YGKYM drives my body forwards or backwards, and the power and speed of this clamping is increased by the waist.

All YJKYM clamps. Speed being increased by the waist makes sense when doing it your way but if you initiate from the center then everything arrives/moves together IMO.

depending on just the waist is too slow and not rooted enough, without the clamping and using the ground and by generating the motions with the waist, you're uprooting yourself.

I disagree as it is not just a sneeze of the waist. Your spine must pull in two directions. You do not lose the root when done properly and the combination of Rise/Sink ensures proper whole body power.

using your center of mass and initiating the motions there are entirely two different things. if the motions begin at the center of mass, how can you be using it to power the strikes? you're only using structure and muscle power.

There is no external muscle being used. Without the use of the torso and R/S/O/C then it will only be robot body looking IMO. How does one hammer in the movements if the COG does not drive it?

if you move your center of mass (and if you read my above comments on how the clamping of the YGKYM and the ground accellerates the center of mass) then you are really using it to generate power. using the clamping nature of YGKYM and the power of the ground you can accelerate the center of mass very quickly, thus hitting with more mass then simply starting your strikes from the center and using muscle power once structure has been achieved.

I disagree again. There are different ways to look at the term "whole body". Some may feel that if you lock your body in and then shift to throw a move out then the whole body is behind it. Perhaps. I believe that if you do not use your waist to control you will not have the body hammering the tools. Clamping is still intact and the ground is still our support for all.

this is the difference between hitting someone with a brick, and hitting them with the whole **** wall

Wall! Why not go stand in front of a wall in YJKYM and then press your palm against it using both methods. Do it with the clamp initiating and then do it with the waist. Both press into the ground but with one you can feel your whole structure involved. These are just my thoughts and I appreciate the discussion!


Regards,

[PaulH]

Very lucid and insightful post, Jim! If I may add to your excellent post, I think most people would agree that it is easier to control the body at the center of mass or gravity. Regardless of where you generate your power, the power shot is only as good as the aim. Power generation and power path's control are mutually dependent on each other. It's not two but one.

Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Paul and everyone!


Its seems some agree and some do not agree which is ok! There are many ways to cross the river! The one thing that I thought was interesting as that some may feel that this could be outside input from other arts etc.. Such as Taiji or Zhan Zhuang etc.. I would have to firmly say NO! Although there may be similarities in all internal/soft style (and harder styles) I would like to post some stuff for all to read.

We must first take in to consideration that I do believe WC comes from White Crane and the White Crane is a big part of our art just done in the WC method. There are many parallels found in all arts as I have said but I will list below info. from some writings on Crane!


"""One of the special characteristics of Southern White Crane style is that the power is often generated from the waist. This is very different from many other Chinese martial styles, in which the Jing is from the legs, directed by the waist, and finally manifested from the hands. When power is generated from the waist, it is fast and the jing is shorter. This is suitable for a style like Crane which specializes in short and middle range fighting distances"""


Regards,

[yuanfen]

Hi Jim- we obviously differ in some things- which as you say is ok.

In differing I do not deny that the waist is important in wing chun. We differ on what that role is.

There was a crane sifu from the Fukien area here in the valley till he moved to San Francisco not too long ago. One of my students brother was learning from him and I have seen other cranes. They lack the crisp directness of Ip man wing chun.
Different cups of tea.

[Phenix]

Hi Joy, Jim,


IMHO,

Since WCK evol from White Crane, certainly WCK's Jing refine and get more internal or sharper or better control or better manage.
Thus, it is not the same with the Mother White Crane but still one can see the image of mother.


As for Jing, IMHO, be it White Crane or Wing Chun, it depend alots on one's cultivation. Some, dull ,some, sharp.
even though, each style has its characteristics but ultimately it is about using the body/mind/breathing/qi.


The reason I brought up the Pillow method is that is a path way to cultivate sharp Jing.... eventhough some who don't understant the cultivation of JIng call it Wimpy.

Now, back to Waist. Waist has alots of significant interms of Physical, Qi flow, or mind management. If the waist is not manage properly, almost 99% quarentee the body doesn't cultivate inward but outward only. and the Pillow Method provide a good cultivation on waist management among with other stuffs.
and to be real honest, as I have heard, just sigh scanning at two points in one's struture. One will "know" if the person in the structure is localize or whole.


I choose to bring up Zhang Zhuang , pillow method.. and plan to discuss .... Shao Lin....taiji ... Emei... yee Chuan... .. here and would like to note those who think I jab at them any time I bring up Shao Lin to not read my post. as would also like to ask those who think of Pillow or Soft training as wimpy to not paticipate because it is not for them.
we might go through in detail what different style do for thier stance....and that is non personal but all technical.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

One can connect or disconnect body parts depending on the fighting situation, so I don't know if localized or whole power really matter or not. But what two scanning points are you referring to? let me guess... the waist?

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Hendrik sez:

Now, back to Waist. Waist has alots of significant interms of Physical, Qi flow, or mind management. If the waist is not manage properly, almost 99% quarentee the body doesn't cultivate inward but outward only. and the Pillow Method provide a good cultivation on waist management among with other stuffs.
and to be real honest, as I have heard, just sigh scanning at two points in one's struture. One will "know" if the person in the structure is localize or whole.
--------------------------------------------------------
((Of course the waist is important- in wing chun , taiji and yoga too.
I dont know the pillow method. If it helps someone ok by me.
But ygkym for wing chun standing post and chakra alignment
for yoga and dhyan has served me well. The first for self defense- the second for higher development beyond self defense.))

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

One can connect or disconnect body parts depending on the fighting situation, so I don't know if localized or whole power really matter or not. But what two scanning points are you referring to? let me guess... the waist?

Regards,


Hi Pual,

loaclized or whole power indeed matter very much. That decide the advance Kung Fu of one. IMHO.

Ok Guess. But this is real important points. without it. one can keep training but rely on one's physical as coming from birth. No transformation....

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik sez:


((Of course the waist is important- in wing chun , taiji and yoga too.
I dont know the pillow method. If it helps someone ok by me.
But ygkym for wing chun standing post and chakra alignment
for yoga and dhyan has served me well. The first for self defense- the second for higher development beyond self defense.))


Joy, certainly you are right.

What pillow method did is adding live into just alignment and ....

[anerlich]

eventhough some who don't understant the cultivation of JIng call it Wimpy

(weaves easily under incoming jab)

As do some who *do* understand Jing cultivation.

IMO, the joining of the structure is important when transmitting impact, or shock. However, unlinking the structure can allow one to effectively absorb shock and dissipate incoming force.

Some may disagree, but they train with too much rigidity.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by anerlich


(weaves easily under incoming jab)

Nicely done.



As do some who *do* understand Jing cultivation.

IMO, the joining of the structure is important when transmitting impact, or shock. However, unlinking the structure can allow one to effectively absorb shock and dissipate incoming force.

Does the question of managing the waist and cultivating jing relate to the "pillow talk"as a means of training to do this through sensitivity and relaxation? The knees in Wing Chun can be key, but as they are only two "points," alone are they sufficient to train, as there are a multitude of contacts possible in real world situations? I'm quite interested in the pillow training method, but am experimenting with chewing gum wrapped in silk as an alternative. :D Pound for pound, chewing gum is cheaper than goose down. :p


Some may disagree, but they train with too much rigidity.
I agree, for multiple connotations of "rigidity."

Regards,

[jonp]

could somebody please tell me what the 'pillow method' is?

cheers

jon

[yuanfen]

An old Dean martin song---"lend me the pillow you dream on-
so I can dream on it too"... a lot of pillowtalk in Californy till
tomorrow night-then hasta la vista to one baby or another.

What does Shawn Todd's wing chun, Hendrik's pillow, John's
gum wrapped in cotton, Donald Duck, Gary Coleman, patriot John Wayne (who fought in The Sands of Iwojima), Jerry Brown and Richard Nixon have in common- why- the state of illusions of course!! With apologies to all Californians in the forum...to non Californians too-- it's the season and the harvest moon is rising!!