Anyone ever do Catch Wrestling?

[IronFist]

Supposedly better than BJJ etc.


Catch Wrestling (http://www.catchwrestle.com/index1.htm)

[Chang Style Novice]

I think Fatherdawg is into that.

[SevenStar]

I haven't but a guy in my bjj class has.

[Serpent]

Why is it called catch? And how does it differ from other wrestling?

[Chang Style Novice]

D@mn my sink-trap of a brain!

I think it's called "Catch" wrestling because the contenders begin disengaged from one another, and so have to catch their opponents to begin grappling - as distinct from Cornish variations and similar that begin with the wrestlers in a specific grip.

That's one way it's different from other styles, but the main one is that historically it derives from tough-man travelling sideshows in the US in the 19th century, and since pins were arguable in determining victory, they went for submissions instead, and therefore developed a lot of the same choking and locking techniques as judo and bjj, only without the gi.

[Serpent]

Chang Style Novice - KFO's resident encyclopeadia!

Thanks bro.

[Chang Style Novice]

If only! I retain dry-cleaning jingles as well as anything, and better than, say, the names of women I'm introduced to. Bleah.

[Serpent]

Oh, I'm with you on the names. I'm a shocker for that. I'll remember a face after five seconds, but it takes me several attempts to retain a name!

[LeeCasebolt]

I trained (briefly) under a guy (Ross Thomas, Lincoln IL - look him up) who trained under Tony Cecchini. He also has some experience under one of the Gracies (Carlson Jr? Don't remember) - we were kind of a mishmash of BJJ, catch, MT, and whatever else we could scrape together.

To the extent that I can be considered a "catch wrestler", I'm a terrible one, but I've got some interest in the history. What I know offhand -

"Catch" is shorthand for "catch as catch can"; it differed from other folk wrestling styles of the time (such as collar and elbow) by not having a predetermined grip the competitors must take, and very few (if any) prohibited holds. In other words, you catch the guy any way you can.

Modern US folkstyle is occassionally referred to as "catch as catch can", and differs from what Tony teaches only to the extent that "Catch" is less concerned with petty things like rules and fair play, and includes a variety of holds, locks, and gouges which are forbidden in amatuer wrestling. These include most submission holds (catch being best known for leg and neck locks), as well as a variety of (for lack of a better term) pressure point attacks (referred to as "rips") used to set up holds.

FatherDog, no doubt, can give a better explanation and correct any of my errors.

[FatherDog]

Lee and CSN have got most of it. As noted, I do Catch; I train under Glenn Ortiz, who was a competitive wrestler in high school and has trained under Tony Ceccine. He's also trained at the Gracie academy, and with Mark Schultz, and with a number of other good grapplers, but his base and his philosophy is rooted in wrestling.

Catch is mainly differentiated from BJJ by a more aggressive and top-oriented philosophy. It focuses on takedowns and top position, and escapes from the bottom like hip heists and sitouts that put you back on your feet or in a scramble situation. Because its base is in wrestling, your average catch practitioner (if there can be said to be such a thing) will be a much better takedown artist in comparison to your average BJJer, but will have a relatively rudimentary guard game. Catch seems to be pretty much light years ahead of most other arts when it comes to leglocks, but Glenn is a leglock specialist so that may be an artifact of my particular training experience rather than the style.

You'll find catch practitioners often being alternately aggressively evangelistic and defensive about their style; a lot of people claim it's a dead art, and there's been some lineage arguments that make Wing Chun ****ing contests look tame. Tony teaches an authentic brand of American Catch as Catch Can as taught to him by Stanley
Radawan and Lou Thesz. Billy Wicks (or is it Riley? Can't remember off the top of my head) was teaching another authentic branch of catch until recently. The Wigan snakepit in England teaches authentic Lancashire Catch (which American catch evolved from, but has some distinct differences) and was involved to some extent in Sakuraba's training. Karl Gotch taught a lot of Japanese Shootfighters holds derived from Catch, but as Gotch admittedly never fought a shoot match in his life, the things he taught are often described as 'watered down' and 'show holds'.

Matt Furey trained briefly with Tony, was involved in a lot of marketing. The two had a falling out due to some very shady business practices on Matt's part (as I understand it). If you mention Furey's name anywhere that Tony or his student's post on, be prepared for a cavalcade of bitterness and acrimony.

Ultimately, lineage arguments are fodder for the historians, and annoying message board personalities. People who've rolled with Tony pretty much universally acknowledge that he has a rare level of skill, regardless of where it came from. My coach's record in submission grappling events (and the records of those he's trained) speak favorably, as well. Ultimately, things are down to the individual... as always.

Is Catch better than BJJ? It's certainly better at takedowns and leglocks. BJJ has a more detailed and extensive guard game, and a gi component that Catch lacks. 'Better' is a very subjective term, though. It's certainly better than BJJ for me, as it suits my style and temperament better.

Any other questions?

[Serpent]

No, I already know too much!

Please stop.

;)

Thanks all.

[IronFist]

Anyone seen any of Tony's tapes? I have two of them but I haven't watched them in a while. I should watch them again soon.

[brothernumber9]

I had thought this catch wrestling sounded familiar. It's what modern wrestling entertainment was developed from. I believe there were two sorta "types" of wrestlers called shooters and hookers. The shooters were usually the smaller guys that would mostly be techticians and have very long bouts, where as the hookers were the guys that specialized in submissions, often extremely strong guys. I might be wrong but I think I remember hearing that Lou Thesz (sp) was the last legitimate champion before matches started being all the time fixed. There was a really interesting show on the history of wrestling on one of the cable channels, (history or discovery or whatever) a while back.

[Merryprankster]

FWIW, I find all of it indistinguishable from everything else. That may be, however, because Lloyd has BB in BJJ, Sambo and Judo, and we have some high-caliber ex-wrestlers running around. Lloyd isn't wedded to some specific idea about how it's supposed to be. If it works he's going to find a place for it.

[Dark Knight]

I own the 10 tape series. I have been in the arts for a long time and like them. Its a different method of fighting. BJJ is position then submission, catch is submission from any position.

They are worth picking up.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
FWIW, I find all of it indistinguishable from everything else. That may be, however, because Lloyd has BB in BJJ, Sambo and Judo, and we have some high-caliber ex-wrestlers running around. Lloyd isn't wedded to some specific idea about how it's supposed to be. If it works he's going to find a place for it.

Ultimately, good technique is good technique (as you've said in the past) so all good grappling is going to look pretty similar. There are a few stylistic differences - the Ceccine style of Catch, for example, emphasizes a thumbed grip on the wrist, twisting the hand, for the top-wristlock/Americana, whereas I've always seen the same move taught with a thumbless grip on the forearm just below the wrist in BJJ and Judo. Mostly, though, the differences lie in focus and emphasis - all the techniques in Judo are in BJJ, but if you take a 'pure' Judo player and a 'pure' BJJ player, they're going to look a bit different, and they're going to be better at different things. Similarly, someone trained primarily in Catch is gonna look a little different than someone based in BJJ - but even there, the differences get muddled, because so many people come into BJJ with prior wrestling experience.

[CrippledAvenger]

Hey FatherDog,

Do you know if Tony's still teaching in Chicago?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
Hey FatherDog,

Do you know if Tony's still teaching in Chicago?

He is, but he's pretty choosy about accepting new students. He tends to put new people through some unreal cardio/endurance workouts. You can e-mail him at tony@catchwrestle.com and ask him about training, though; my impression is that he's pretty open to new folks if they can stick to it long enough.