kicking

[Ikken Hisatsu]

just a few things-

1) when you throw a roundhouse, do you kick with the instep, ball of the foot with toes pulled backwards, or shin? I just want to know the merits and disadvantages of each one.

2) when you kick, do you train in shoes or barefoot? obviously barefoot would toughen them up, but really, how many times are you in a street fight with no shoes on.... (well unless you were after someone who had stolen them)

3) for a thrust kick/side kick do you kick with the ball, heel or "blade" of the foot? I've heard that kicking with the blade is the most effective but to me it looks fairly awkward...

[ninthdrunk]

I like to roundhouse with the ball of my foot. I learned it first in sikaran with the top of my foot...try catching an elbow block to the top of the foot....that sucks! Shaolin do teaches to kick with the ball of the foot. It helps to penetrate your target better. Also, there are some more specialized kicks from our mantis system that actually are kicking lower pressure points. The ball of the foot provides a nice small surface area to really pin-point those strikes.


Side kicks get a little more tricky. From what I have been taught, you are correct the side/edge of the foot is the best striking surface. I have really been working on getting more power out of my side kicks. My hips seem to turn out more and I have been striking with the heel. It has taken some getting used to....had to develop more hip flexibility so that I keep my body upright enough to watch my targets, but it seems to be working great. My partners can really tell in bag work.

Ben

ps. and of course, I train barefoot in class. Outside of class, it just depends on where I am training.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
1) when you throw a roundhouse, do you kick with the instep, ball of the foot with toes pulled backwards, or shin? I just want to know the merits and disadvantages of each one.


All of the above for different reasons.



2) when you kick, do you train in shoes or barefoot? obviously barefoot would toughen them up, but really, how many times are you in a street fight with no shoes on.... (well unless you were after someone who had stolen them)


Shoes. Well, light dunlop volley type shoes. As you say, you are unlikely to be attacked when you have bare feet. Alternatively, if someone attacks you at night in your home or on the beach, you probably won't have shoes on, so it's down to personal preference really. I prefer to wear light, flat soled shoes.



3) for a thrust kick/side kick do you kick with the ball, heel or "blade" of the foot? I've heard that kicking with the blade is the most effective but to me it looks fairly awkward...

Blade and heel together.

[ComeToJesus]

Training barefoot will make you more comfortable when you have shoes on.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by ComeToJesus
Training barefoot will make you more comfortable when you have shoes on.

Completely untrue.

If you always train barefoot and then try to use your stuff with dress shoes on, be prepared to land on your ass.

[joedoe]

[Edit] Double post.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ComeToJesus
Training barefoot will make you more comfortable when you have shoes on.

I disagree with this. Your balance is completely different with shoes on.

[blooming lotus]

I agree. I like to train in different soled shoes. It could be anything from nike cross trainers to feyoes(pls excuse spelling ) to other softer more flexble nikes, then I'm a chick, so I need to know I cant plant a good kick in heels. :o

What ever shoe you plan on spending time in is what I say. If you cant kick in it, dont wear it.. works for me

[ComeToJesus]

What the hell are you people talking about. OK joedoe just said that he disagrees, but Serpent...
I'm talking from experience. I practice barefoot all the time, and I feel like I can kick twice as much a$$ with shoes on. And I have BETTER balance because shoes give me
A) sturdier contact with the floor
B) slightly larger area of contact with the floor, thus IMPROVING my balance
You just need work on YOUR balance, don't be telling me that it's "completely untrue"...

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ComeToJesus
What the hell are you people talking about. OK joedoe just said that he disagrees, but Serpent...
I'm talking from experience. I practice barefoot all the time, and I feel like I can kick twice as much a$$ with shoes on. And I have BETTER balance because shoes give me
A) sturdier contact with the floor
B) slightly larger area of contact with the floor, thus IMPROVING my balance
You just need work on YOUR balance, don't be telling me that it's "completely untrue"...

I have trained both, and have found that training both ways has advantages and disadvantages. I actually found that because I could feel the floor better, barefoot kicking was easier.

Personally I try to train with shoes mainly because it is most likely that if I ever have to use my art in an altercation I will be wearing shoes. Also, the slightly added weight of the shoe needs to be trained for as well.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by ComeToJesus
What the hell are you people talking about. OK joedoe just said that he disagrees, but Serpent...
I'm talking from experience. I practice barefoot all the time, and I feel like I can kick twice as much a$$ with shoes on. And I have BETTER balance because shoes give me
A) sturdier contact with the floor
B) slightly larger area of contact with the floor, thus IMPROVING my balance
You just need work on YOUR balance, don't be telling me that it's "completely untrue"...

My balance is just fine, thanks.

Let me isolate one part of your quote.


Originally posted by ComeToJesus
I practice barefoot all the time, and I feel like I can kick twice as much a$$ with shoes on.

If it's what you feel, then fine.

*shrug*

[ComeToJesus]

Yeah I *feel*.
I wouldn't be feeling it if I was falling all over the place, like you suggest one would be.
Look I don't want any tension between us.
I was speaking from experience, and was just a little peeved at your "completely untrue" comment.

[chen zhen]

Always roundhouse with the shin.
Instep kicks is only done if u want to break your insteps.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Ikken Hisatsu
1) when you throw a roundhouse, do you kick with the instep, ball of the foot with toes pulled backwards, or shin? I just want to know the merits and disadvantages of each one.

All of the above. They all have their uses. Usually, I kick with the instep. Though I have to admit that's mostly due to prior training. I'm used to throwing it at that range rather than at the slightly closer shin range. The shin kick is probably slightly stronger too. Less risk of damage to you as the kicker.

And the ball of the foot can be used to get to targets that are otherwise inaccessible. E.g., a guy in a side-on stance. You want to kick him in the jumblies. Shin or instep won't get it done. But the ball of the foot will. That's a fairly specialized need though.

As far as damaging the instep of your foot on a roundhouse (hitting someone's elbow), that's not generally a problem. If your hip is turned all the way over, your foot is horizontal to the target. Perhaps even a slight downward angle. So the opponent's elbow would have to be in a really odd position for me to slam the top of my foot into it. I've never really had that problem.


2) when you kick, do you train in shoes or barefoot? obviously barefoot would toughen them up, but really, how many times are you in a street fight with no shoes on.... (well unless you were after someone who had stolen them)

That argument used to make sense to me. Not so much anymore. Where does that logic end? "I train in shoes. Crosstrainers." Okay, so what if you get in a fight wearing sandals? Dress shoes? Rubber wellies? And what difference will training in various shoes make if you don't also train in the various outfits you wear? I've known people to train in jeans occassionally. But dress suits? Skirts? Ties?

To my mind, I'd rather train wearing the sort of gear that will give me the most bang for my buck in training. Understanding that in the real deal, there's going to be a serious degradation in my skills, I'd rather improve those skills so that the baseline from which I'm degrading is higher. If my comfort level with my chosen footwear that day is what makes or breaks my chances... I'm cooked.


3) for a thrust kick/side kick do you kick with the ball, heel or "blade" of the foot? I've heard that kicking with the blade is the most effective but to me it looks fairly awkward... [/B]

Why is that the most effective? What's the rationale?

To me, hitting with the blade of the foot means bending your ankle at a really odd angle. And I don't have a whole lot of faith in it. Besides, why is the outside edge of my foot going to do more damage than my heel? Which targets is it going to have better access to?

For me, it's the heel.



Stuart B.

[Black Jack]

I am a heel guy as well. The blade position feels awkward. Don't forget that you can also use the toes in a round kick. Its a whipping, piercing style kick and of course one that should be used with footwear only and aimed towards the lower soft spots like the groin.

Capt. Dermont O' Neill used to showcase this kick to his new recruits on pigs.

[Shaolin-Do]

"If you always train barefoot and then try to use your stuff with dress shoes on, be prepared to land on your ass."

Wouldnt necesarily go that far, but there is a big difference. Mainly weight, I prefer shoes simply becaues of the added weight. Take off your heavy shoes and the feets feel like feathers.

"then I'm a chick, so I need to know I cant plant a good kick in heels."
"I am a heel guy as well."

:eek:


:D

[No_Know]

"1) when you throw a roundhouse, do you kick with the instep, ball of the foot with toes pulled backwards, or shin? I just want to know the merits and disadvantages of each one."

Round house (hyperextended knee;strke with the body out of harms way; vulnerabl to supportleg attack.)

-Instep--greatest hit area of the foot from round house angle. If target is on the far edge of the kick, then muscles of toes could get bent down damagedly. If foot connects with hard enough part related to opponent, then nerve disruption?, bruised bone could occure.

-Ball of foot, more greatly jeopardizes my toes. Has reach for deep targets.

-Shin is very delecate. My leg can become useless if it even nicks a hard enough part of opponent (au en route) it can become at least nearly useless. Has a great surface area. Can do good bludgeon damage to upper arm, thigh, calf, gut, chest, flank, back (big muscled areas or areas with no Big bones near the surface.

"3) for a thrust kick/side kick do you kick with the ball, heel or "blade" of the foot? I've heard that kicking with the blade is the most effective but to me it looks fairly awkward..."

Thrust kick (locked joints)

-Ball of foot (preference) small hitting surface--most penetrating damage next to big toe (upper body only (removes greatest jeopardy for toe damage)).

-Any blade use is based by the heel. Therefore, only from the stomach or ribs bottom to the lower thigh should a thrust kick be used on a person about the same height as you and average/bulky to slimmer build.

-Heel of foot, good for leg strikes (foot to hips); and forward leaning upper bodies; chin. Back of heel hits hard enough surface nerve damage? bruised bone.

Side kick (locked joints)

-Heel, most direct transfer of force of the leg; could hit a too hard area and hurt your foot and ankle (shock). Foot could be bent towards shin.

-Blade force (again, from this angle ball of the foot more greatly jeopardizes my toes). Foot could be bent towards shin.


"2) when you kick, do you train in shoes or barefoot? obviously barefoot would toughen them up, but really, how many times are you in a street fight with no shoes on.... (well unless you were after someone who had stolen them)"

Since my bare foot is Inside the shoe...Training in bare feet helps to condition my feet. This would allow my shoed foot to hit harder surfaces while taking less damage.

As far as the friction differences in bare feet to shoe, I get a general idea of surcaces and their interplay. And I kick to most efficient with those compensations for that moment.

I keep the same principles(momentum, lift, torque.?.) with either medium.

If you Are thinking there's a difference with/without shoes address apoweyn's mention of train in different shoes. Also, with and without socks in each of those shoes.

If group attacks are as cruel as I'm getting from at least some on the boards, then I might think some might TAke your shoes during the fight if not just after.

I do think having an understanding of the nature of the thing with footware and the technique comming-off best is significant. It does not require constant doing. Merely a general idea. Ten minutes would give enough gist, to use as a baseline to make momentary correction to technique execution.

Dependence on footware for technique efficiency, suggests I'm an under developed delivery person. Not taking enough into consideration relevant to footware (during a kick at least), I would do well to become aware of my ignorance~/overlooking of a significant factor.

[Starchaser107]

Blackjack
how did the pigs respond to this?

____________________________
Ap:
"To my mind, I'd rather train wearing the sort of gear that will give me the most bang for my buck in training. Understanding that in the real deal, there's going to be a serious degradation in my skills, I'd rather improve those skills so that the baseline from which I'm degrading is higher. If my comfort level with my chosen footwear that day is what makes or breaks my chances... I'm cooked."

good reply

[Black Jack]

From what I understand is that they were kicked to death. Sometimes on a good first hit. I believe it was as much more about psychological training as physical training in reponse to warfare.

Cheers.

[No_Know]

When I said instep I was thinking top of the foot. however, where on the top of the foot determines flexion at the ankle and tension of the foot.

[Nick]

I use the shin for roundhouses and my heel for side kicks.

Later...

[norther practitioner]

I use the instep for my butterfly kicks ;)

[yu shan]

We roundhouse using the shins, and condition accordingly. We are a Chinese Style so we train in shoes. And this sidekick...just kick the sh*t out of `em, who cares what part of the foot? Arn`t you following up with something... ;)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by apoweyn


That argument used to make sense to me. Not so much anymore. Where does that logic end? "I train in shoes. Crosstrainers." Okay, so what if you get in a fight wearing sandals? Dress shoes? Rubber wellies? And what difference will training in various shoes make if you don't also train in the various outfits you wear? I've known people to train in jeans occassionally. But dress suits? Skirts? Ties?

To my mind, I'd rather train wearing the sort of gear that will give me the most bang for my buck in training. Understanding that in the real deal, there's going to be a serious degradation in my skills, I'd rather improve those skills so that the baseline from which I'm degrading is higher. If my comfort level with my chosen footwear that day is what makes or breaks my chances... I'm cooked.



Why is that the most effective? What's the rationale?

personally speaking, obviously when I am in regular training mode
I prefer my sporty, comfort gear but what I am saying is that often I will chose not to wear an outfit or shoe unless I can have a good range of movement in them. And what I mean by "practice" is that I test them out for kickablity and also for maximum flexiblty when I get changed, which can take anything up to an hour or more (give or take ) and several outfits. Your right, I dont think Id do a hard core workout in them though unless there was no alternative. I also like socks, bare feet and of course my various trainers but I guess it depends on what my training objectives are.

To me, hitting with the blade of the foot means bending your ankle at a really odd angle. And I don't have a whole lot of faith in it. Besides, why is the outside edge of my foot going to do more damage than my heel? Which targets is it going to have better access to?

For me, it's the heel.



Stuart B.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

well one of my favourites is a side kick to the guts with a backhand to the head as a follow up. thanks for the info guys, hepls a lot- I only have two pairs of shoes and they're both pretty similar in size and weight, so I tend to practice in them.


As far as damaging the instep of your foot on a roundhouse (hitting someone's elbow), that's not generally a problem. If your hip is turned all the way over, your foot is horizontal to the target. Perhaps even a slight downward angle. So the opponent's elbow would have to be in a really odd position for me to slam the top of my foot into it

unfortunately my legs aren't incredibly flexible, so when its chambered and I am going for the head (not often) I point my knee towards what I want to hit, putting it an upward angle, so if i kick with the instep an elbow is a threat. one of the reasons I don't particularly like roundhouse kicks. (I like to keep the kicks low and follow with hand strikes to the head when the guard drops)

[SevenStar]

Then use a low roundhouse... I generally kick waist height and below, unless I'm trying to showboat, or unless I'm using a hook kick, as I've got a decent high hook.