Chi Sau -That Push thing??

[S.Teebas]

Hi,

I was watching some clips of WSL doing Chi sau and in the clips he pauses mid roll and pushes his structure against the other person.

Do any other lines do this too?... im just asking becasue, I thought a continious roll was how chi sau should be practiced.

What is the reason behind moving the body back and forth when doing chi sau?

(This is not ment to be disrespectful of the different methods, im just curious as to the reason)

[blooming lotus]

maybe to gain a different angle for nxt application but not so proficient in wing chun per say ..any one else?

[yuanfen]

What? Bad habit? Not proficient? WSL doing chi sao?
Nonsense.
Watching chi sao specially when a top person is doing it-
you dont always know what is going on.
I dont know which specific clip you were looking at.
It could have beena testing of structure and balance
and sensing an open line.

BTW, FWIW...in talking witha couple of people of his generation-
he was perfectly capable of rolling a little bit and then just (controlled) hitting,

[yuanfen]

Reply to Empty Cup:

Joy did you ever meet and cross hands with him before he passed away?

((What do you mean by cross hands? I did look sao with WSL
and TST twice each- in San Francisco and Houston during their team trip to British Columbia and the US))



quote:
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It could have beena testing of structure and balance and sensing an open line
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you don't need to do that to do the things you listed above,

master or no master

((If you say so, master!:-
At certain levels of achievement- you can do many things.
Ali laid on the ropes sometimes- a no no for beginners. He leaned his head back at times- a no no for beginners.
But he knew what he was doing.))

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Hi,

I was watching some clips of WSL doing Chi sau and in the clips he pauses mid roll and pushes his structure against the other person.

Do any other lines do this too?... im just asking becasue, I thought a continious roll was how chi sau should be practiced.

What is the reason behind moving the body back and forth when doing chi sau?

(This is not ment to be disrespectful of the different methods, im just curious as to the reason)
A possible, perhaps likely explanation is that doing Chi Sao that way is training for the partner who receives the force. Likely, the other person in the video was a student of his, and WSL trained him that way to force him to tire (his muscles) and then to rely on structure. WSL was playing with him.

Regards,

[e-Warrior]

All this sounds similar to something my own Sifu (Kan Wah Chit) does.

He sometimes tries to rock your stance by pushing against your structure and then drawing back. All he's doing is testing the stability of your root etc. It sets up an irregular, rocking rhythm. I suspect that's what Wong was doing.

I wouldn't consider it to be a bat habit or wrong. Although chi-sao is unpredictable (you've got things coming in from all sides) you can get into a bit of a rut. I think another reason for this little test is to break out of that.

Plus, remember that these guys have mastered the system. Students haven't. Many sifus do things that they then scald their students for doing. The master "get away with it" so to speak.

[yuanfen]

Notes on Empty Cup's post:

did WSL do that with you when you rolled hands with him?

((I dont know which WSL shot we are comparing. But basically no.
Rolling and sharpening of listening jing))


I don't know about Augustine but Ho Kam Ming's students do that

((Apparently your values are different from mine. I dont call William Cheung "Bill". I generally call sifus by their last name unless I have their permission. Kenneth Chung's students call him Ken, His choice. he is still Cheung sifu AFAIAMC. I wouldnt call your
sifu by his first name.
I don't know which of HKM students you are referring to. I know some of them and what they do. Sometimes it involves a testing of body unity and line control. HKM did as much chi sao with Ip man as anyone. He also tested structure in his own way. There are subtle "signatures" of different folks in chi sao. Master Ho's good students know what they are doing. Of course there are diversities among individuals in all lineages. Often one can tell the teacher by touching a student if it is awell known lineage.
In boxing one can tell a Kronk gym guy, from a Teddy Atlas etc,
probaly same for Gracies versus other jj))

Oh to clarify I never said Wong didn't know what he was doing but some things he did might not be the best methods for other ppl. He made them work though so that's what's important.

((The key is what good sifus teach their best students. WSL, TST,
HLM, LS, LY didnt really have armchair video quarterbacks in mind)

For example his ready stance tends to already be shifted to one side. It looks good but then you can't really shift again...

((if you were his student possibly he would showyou))

Hmmm everytime his name comes up I fume that I didn't get a copy of that darn book...

((Which book? petersen's- its still available-just ask him)

btw Joy, why did you remove the link of your website?

((What link? Where? I don't keep up with my website. A student does and he is tinkering with it to do a newer version supposedly... which he will put up when he is ready. I barely usea pc keyboard. My site is at <www.azwingchun.com>))

I was only joking that time you know

((I dont know. You are assuming things- that a passing remark on the net would automatically result in changes in what i do or dont do. ))
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

((To ewarrior- I have done chi sao with Victor Kan sifu before during his Arizona visit. I am ina group pic. on his site. I have not checkedit lately))

[reneritchie]

When I've chi sao'd with some folks from WSL and some other lineage, I could feel definate instances of heavy pressure. When I inquired about it, the theory seemed to be--when do you 'go' in Chi Sao? ('Go' being transition from luk sao to free application chi sao). Do you just decide to go? Or do you go when you sense a defect? If you go when you sense a defect, can you not try to create defects so that you can 'go'?

Some lineages (don't know about WSL in specific in this case) want to get your weight onto (or even better) behind your heels before they 'go', since this is one of the precursors to a certain kind of structure breaking; a defect that they can move in on. To do this, some will press like you describe in in Luk Sao. (others will try to get you to press so they can pull you forward, others will try to get you to cross your own hands or waver too much to one side or the other, or make you think you can leak when you can't, or fake a defect they know they can cover, and so on and so on... becomes like chess).

[reneritchie]

As a personal student Leung Jan, Joy has also Chi Sao'd extensively with many of the past greats, real and imagined 8)

[yuanfen]

Rene- you are leaking out my secrets- you are not going to release the precious record of my chi sao with Dr. Leung Jan are you?
If you do- a thousand bi lingual ghosts will haunt you!!

Fortunately, you dont have the record of my journey with the Bodhidharma when he crossed the Yangtse on a reed boat.
It comes back to me whenever I stare at a wall or look at a
solitary sandal...but it vanishes when I stare at Catherine Zeta Jones for some reason....the root of all evil.

[Frank Exchange]

To be honest, this just sounds exactly like a foundation concept of WC, heavily emphasized by WSL, that of Lut Sao Jit Chung.

This emphasizes a strong springy forward prying force, the essence being that regardless of which direction your opponent going, your intent is forward. And it enables the old "hitting without realising a gap appears" thing that was discussed a while back. The pry initially is done from the elbows, when you get better the stance and elbows, and eventually when one gets good enough, from the stance alone.

Without the benefit of knowing exactly which clip it was, it sounds like Wong was just testing out the opponents structure with his lut sao jit chung. The pressure would be constant when transitional, but more when the tan/bong/fooks were in place.

Or, he may have just been mucking about, as he liked a joke. My instructor has a photo of him picking his nose when practicing the dummy :)

For what its worth, he could chisao incredibly lightly, with elbows totally relaxed and outward, then as soon as the opponent made a move, simply fook and punch with the same arm, totally destroying the opponents stance and structure.

[PaulH]

One of the great skills of WSL is his Baat Chaam Do. His hands and feet like delicate knives are razor sharped dissecting the opponent precisely where he is most empty or vulnerable from very light contact. A European fencer champion once challenged him. Wong had his knives right against his opponent's neck both times on the HK TV show. The 1st the opponent had just one foil?, the 2nd against both foils as the fencer complaining against his unfair use of two butterfly knives.

Regards,

[PaulH]

Just saw interesting e-warrior's comment. The practice that he rightly described is of a more advanced skill where you bombard the opponent with conflicting mental signals shutting down his defense and set up for the real heavy shot. Having felt the power of this sort of chi sau, I can say that it is truly disorienting!

Regards,

[PaulH]

It could be the sabre on the 2nd time. I'm not there hence my question mark on the foil on the previous post. Whatever it may have happened, Wong's skill at knives surpassed his opponent's. I have read and heard that the suddued opponent even asked Wong at the end to teach him this sword skill and Wong proceeded to show him Sim Lim Tau.

Regards,

P.S Here is the account told by Gary Lam who lived there at the time.

Traditionally Wing Chun teachers taught only qualified students, this is do to the fact that if they learned to soon and then later attempted to use the knives, it would almost certainly end in disaster. An analogy of this would be trying to teach an average automobile driver how to race cars, and then entering them in a professional race. This is a scenario for tragedy; the unqualified car racer would be lucky to stay alive in such a dangerous situation. The same can be said about learning the knives; the student must be ready to learn if the training is to have meaning. And in case your worried if the Baat Jaam Do has lost its fighting spirit in our modern day, several years ago my Sifu, the late Wong Shun Leung, sparred with a champion western fencer on television. Wong easy beat the fencer, and when the fencer complained Wong had an unfair advantage with two swords, Wong offered him a second blade and beat him again. Afterwards the fencer petitioned Wong for instruction, he happily agreed and proceeded to introduce him to Siu Nim Tao, the first stage of Wing Chun training. Thus Wong by example reiterated the truth of Baat Jaam Do understanding and usage, the practitioner must master Wing Chun first if the hands are to become knives. Much like wisdom, learning the Baat Jaam Do is difficult and rare; few are ready to tread its razor edge of excellence.

[PaulH]

You're welcomed! I once played chi sau with this guy who had BJD training. His hands went through me like knifes to the butter! Scary stuffs!

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Empty Cup sez;

if you were his student possibly he would showyou"

what makes you think I was never shown?
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If you have beem shown something and you think you know- no need
to ask.

[e-Warrior]

PaulH


Having felt the power of this sort of chi sau, I can say that it is truly disorienting!

Yes, it rattles you at first. Eventually, however, you learn to ride it out, absorb the rocking motion. Not easy though.

EmptyCup


Ahhh I know what you mean and hadn't considered that. Wong also does that in the video. I was thinking of the habit where ppl don't roll smoothly but instead stop on and off. The testing stability thing is a bit different.

Maybe Wong was testing to see if the opponent was sticking correctly. I think people (me included) can get into the habit of a regular rolling rhythm. I'm not sure about WSL lineage but I think it's similar to VK which means they do the palm attack (when you have the tan sau, step in with the same foot and palm). If you roll too regular and the opponent suddenly stops, you can end up prematurely lifting the fook off the opponent's tan sau = a gap = you get hit.

What I am interested in is why you think "non-smooth" chi-sao is potentially bad. I personally don't think it matters.

[S.Teebas]

Here's the page I saw the clips on:

http://www.vingtsunupdate.com/framevt/index1uk.htm

Choose "Ving sun Video" from the menu on the left.

[Vyvial]

It's called tsui ma (push horse), you'll see it more in the traditional "VT" schools. The way my school trains it, is to constantly use our stance and structure to uproot our chi sau partner. The pressure on the line stays the same (matching energy) but our stance is constantly alive, never letting go of the centerline until our partner is on the ground or on the wall. What I call supression Chi Sau... We use our stance and structure to open the line and get the strikes instead of relying on hand techniques, when the opponent tries to turn and let the energy go past, their structure in theory collapses as we turn with them and continue to go forward. Once uprooted, it is very hard for someone to regain their stance if they are constanty being pushed by a solid structure. On the same token, if they have no stance then they do not have a chance to attack or even defend.

[PaulH]

Since Anerlich raised up the standards quite a bit with his web link sources, I'm happily complied in kind on the Push Hands technical part that some call the lost skill of WC. Enjoy.

http://www.chung-hua.com/legends14.htm

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Paul H. It is not lost in some lineages. In others it has never been found. Thanks for the link.

Andrew N. Thanks for the link to Montaigne. I have seen his articles and site before. Quite informative. But i must say that compared to Chen Xiao Wang (in Australia for some time now) also in Zhang Zhuan he(EM) looks stiff.

BTW: In the latest IKF--- nice (cover) story on Emin Boztepe,
a different rather bad article on chi sao by someone else.

Also see for yourself in the latest Kung Fu(KFO linked) (not IKF) a special issue on "Shaolin"- no comment- there is another guy in another article in standing stake.

[anerlich]

Joy,

Erle Montaigue is a bit of a conundrum. One of my Sifus (David Crook) is friendly with him, and complimentary about his knowledge and ability, though not uncritically so.

Various reports I've heard boil down to him being quite good himself. He used to write extensively for an MA rag in Oz that went bust in the 90's; some of his articles were very good but some were far too "do it my way or you're a moron" or "if you do anything except taiji there is no hope for you".

He came off second best (IMO) after a clash with two Gracies after he wrote an disparaging article about BJJ and was promptly challenged.

While the TCM theory is no doubt sound (in the way a logical argument can be sound but still turn out to be incorrect to a TCM sceptic like me), some of the claims he makes about Dim Mak and the like are utterly incredible. His "dim Mak against a grappler" stuff is IMO right down there with the worst "Wing Chun antigrappling" articles.

But his site does contain a hell of a lot of good info, and much of it is free. The standing post article IMO is particularly good.

[PaulH]

My pleasure, Joy. Things have been very interesting for me lately on the WC study. This morning I was working on the very same push hand. Gary Sifu as well as some senior students was just giving me some pointers on the mechanics of it. I saw all the keys listed in the article, but it is not that easy to apply against my tall and very fast European partner who actively resisted my pushing attempt throughout the session. I'll be delighted if you have any available info from Ho Kam Ming or Fong Sifu on this subject also.

Did you have a chance to see the po pai clip that Ernie make available sometimes ago? I'll be interested to hear from your perspective also.

For those who like to see what I'm talking about. I'll recommend the "Crossing hands" video and go to the double tan drill part on that video. Gary gave a long talk on that topic. It is still available at garylamwingchun.com, I think? The Po Pai DVD which for some unknown humorous reason listed as pho phai DVD at the cranesproduction.com will show all the po pai actions in the article. See for yourself how effortless and yet tremendously powerful Gary Sifu do all these hands.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Paul H.:
I missed the po pai video clip shared by Ernie apparently- do you have a link? Not being a techie it took me some time to figure out that Real Player was problematic- I shifted to Quick time later
and it worked better for me for some clips.

I am quite familar with various start up combinations for po pai-
because they are there in dummy form work.
Sigung Ho Kam Ming is not given to writing much. Sifu Fong used to write but does not write as much these days. But in his approach chi sao can be used for both improving the understanding and internalizing of practically every wing chun principle- including what we have been discussing about pressure
and adjusting to pressure.
His reunion and instructor gatherings in May in Tucson are some of the best way to geta sense of his approach to various wing chun topics for those who dont live in Tucson. He also travels to places and is also in Chicago from time to time. He is not on chat forums-the same goes for a lot of good wing chun people.

Andrew N:

Yes Montaigne's article on basic standing is clear enough but the pic of he himself standing in the taiji posture looked stiff. But I am the first to say that pics can mislead.

He seems to have more of a yang style background.I know that there is a bit of a Chen bandwagon but the good ones in that style can really demonstrate explosive power- fajing--- atleast more that the Yang folks. But I dont want to overgeneralize
beyond ny understanding.

Yes- his dim mak musings are a bit hokey.
The body has points all over the place. Knowing charts does not do much for developing timing, delivery, adjustment and many other things. Additionally- there is the problem of people teing things without knowing what they are doing and without control and hurting people.
Incidentally- I was looking through some Yang Ming writings and
blurbs as well. Apparently he also has something coming out if it
isnt out already on healing chi na injuries.
His writings are quite informatove on some things- but he has some weird subjective opinions. Often people who stray beyond their specialization end up doing that. Paralelling my previous distinction between science and scientism.
He talks about the different influences of the north south pole in the north south hemispheres and infers on conclusions on
greater brain power and tech devlopment in the northern hemisphere!!
I add that to some other strange theses on bio behavior---
Aristotle on Greeks being rational as opposed to northern
dumbness and southern emotionality- because of location.
Mpntesquieu naturally that French are good because of their location etc.
Silly theories in the light of human mobility and interaction.
Indians can do quite well in math. without the benefit of Greek birth. And one or two in wing chun without being Chinese.!!

Sorry for any wnadering finger typos!

[PaulH]

Sorry, Joy. I don't have the link. Ernie had the master version of the whole po pai things and he sometimes show a brief demo from his server in the past. And we all know that the past does not equate to the present. Of course, you could buy the whole things for your perusal's pleasure. Ha! Ha! Speaking of which I'm also curious about the new HFY book. The ways the chapters are arranged are almost the same as Gary's seminar on SLT, CK, and BG. So once it is available at my local bookstore, I plan to buy it too.

Regards,

[anerlich]

His writings are quite informatove on some things- but he has some weird subjective opinions. Often people who stray beyond their specialization end up doing that. Paralelling my previous distinction between science and scientism.

Amen.

I mean, extrapolating TCM theory out to unrelated disciplines like sociology and anthropology is completely ridiculous. Hundreds of years of study by learned scientists and quality popular references like "Guns Germs and Steel", but nope, some guy who studies dim mak and acupuncture without clinical or scientific qualifications come along and says that's all crap, it's to do with the five elements of TCM and their concordances. The arrogance is breathtaking.

And he lives in Australia, so must dumb down 20 IQ points or so each time he crosses the equator north-south.

I realise I'm pretty ferocious and relentless at shaking down TCM advocates, but I put up with too much of that tinfoil-beanie type stuff as a neijia student in the 1980s. TCM may be a science to some, but it can't be with some of the logical leaps of faith, crooked thinking and outright rubbish spouted by some of its adherents - the worst of whom wth whom I am acquainted are not on KFO.

[yuanfen]

Yang is in Boston.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Yang is in Boston.
Yin is in San Jose. :p Did you meet her in April?

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Yes, she was singing- "by the time I get to Phoenix."!

[ntc]

Originally posted by EmptyCup


Joy I was curious...do you punch with the fist upturned the way Ho likes to teach? Wondered if Fong taught that way...


Curious here, EmptyCup..... why do you say that Sifu Ho likes to teach punching with the fist upturned? I am a longtime student of Sifu Ho's from Macau, and I am not aware that he ever taught that type of punch. Our punches were always slightly tilted from the vertical position, at an approximately 45-degree angle in which the bones of the wrist and the forearms are properly aligned, giving this the strongest natural bone structure possible. With this structure, one will minimize any damage to the wrist when delivering a punch.

If this is the type of punch you are referring to, then you are correct in that he does teach this punch. Otherwise, clarify if you could. Thank you.

[yuanfen]

Empty Cup- Thats how I practice punching too ( per NTC's description).

Given the easiness of misunderstanding-I clarified in a general way. The regular punch is not horizontal. The principle is one of following the natural alignment.

[Miles Teg]

I agree with you guys on the punch thing, thats how my school does it too - it does feel more natural than being completely verticle.


As for the WSL thing; I dont see anything wrong. It looks like he is testing stucture, alignment, and spring. It looks as if he has quite good spring based on the video.

S Teebas, is this a no-no in your school?

[Miles Teg]

Yuanfen just said he does it with a slant as did NTC.

[Miles Teg]

Obviously not thoroughly enough.

[blooming lotus]

I've gotta agree, slanted is more natural and feels alot stonger..

[ntc]

Just some side information... I have seen the vertical punch used in applications myself, though these incidents did NOT involve Wing Chun. It is not uncommon to see kung fu stylists use the vertical punch as an internal strike, and this is supposed to be pretty effective against the Teet Bo Sar (Iron Vest, in which the Qi in the body is so focused/manipulated at the point of contact that knives allegedly cannot cut into the skin).

In these applications, the front of the vertical fist is placed flat ON the skin of the opponent, and the strike is actually done via a sudden, concentrated snap of the wrist and using Fa Jing drilling the bottom three knuckles INTO the point of contact. This results in the force going beyond the surface shielded by the Qi and through it into the underlying area. Hence, if the surface was in the chest area, damage would be done to the internal organs like the heart, lungs, etc., rather than bruising the surface or causing only a muscularskeletal injury.

Palm strikes are also similarly frequently used for internal strikes. The palm is placed on the opponent's body point of contact, and then a sudden, concentrated thrust from the body drives the striking force into the body via the palm connected to the body. This is extremely effective for targeting hard surface areas, like the skull, etc.

[ntc]

Blooming Lotus:

You indicated in your thread that you are in Anhui, China, and that you are practicing Shaolin Wing Chun. Would you be so kind as to elaborate a bit on the Wing Chun you are practicing, and any differences, if any, it has from the Yip Man/Fut Shan branches of Wing Chun commonly discussed in these threads? Thank you much.

[ntc]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
sorry for the confusion...yes that is what I meant

No problem.... and thank you for clarifying. Good discussion going on here.

[anerlich]

It is not uncommon to see kung fu stylists use the vertical punch as an internal strike, and this is supposed to be pretty effective against the Teet Bo Sar (Iron Vest, in which the Qi in the body is so focused/manipulated at the point of contact that knives allegedly cannot cut into the skin).

I'm glad you used the word "allegedly".

I gather the bullets in the Boxer Rebellion were also pretty effective against it.

What if you used a vertical fist with a knuckleduster with a blade on the front? What happens then? Will the vertical fist break down the Iron Vest, or will the blade be unable to penetrate the skin?