Internal in Japanese arts?

[Octavius]

OK, I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times, but I wonder if it has been asked in this way before:

In CMA, both of what he now call external and internal all have some form of qigong work in there somewhere, either as parts of forms, or as separate forms themselves, or as separate exercises. I wonder if anyone has any ideas about whether such things are found in Japanese arts. I do not mean karate, becasue traditional Okinawan karate has breathing exercises/forms in there (like Sanchin) usually derived from some kind of CMA. The modern Japanese karate doesn't really have these (i am thinking mainly of Shotokan - but corect me if I'm wrong). I am referring more to the Jujutsu styles of JMA - Judo, Aikido, Aiki-jujutsu, various Ryus of jujutsu, etc. I know that many consider Aikido to be an internal JMA, and perhaps its focus on Ki may mean that it is, but I do not know of any systematic Ki development that takes place in Aikido as there is in CMA where there are systematic NeiGong proscribed for specific levels of development. Judo is another one that I believe i supposed to be "soft" but all the develpomental work I've seen peple do for it is very muscular oriented. And What abou Jujutsu? It occurs to me that JMA is very keen on the concept of kuzushi and aiki whether they explicitly say it or not, but that to me is more a development of listening energy and not so much development of fajing. Ok, this isn't quite turning out to be the question that I intended to ask, but what the hell, I'll post this menadering thought anyway and see what responses and opinions I can get :)

[Former castleva]

You should move this to "Other Related Arts".

"I know that many consider Aikido to be an internal JMA, and perhaps its focus on Ki may mean that it is, but I do not know of any systematic Ki development that takes place in Aikido "

Physics back aikido up,but the founder created a set of "ki exercises"/breathing exercises,whatever you call them.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Physics back aikido up,but the founder created a set of "ki exercises"/breathing exercises,whatever you call them.

Actually it was a student of Oo-Sensei that created "Ki no renmei", he is called Tada Hiroshi (9th DAn Aikikai) and still teaches today at age 83(methinks).

Japanese call Qi-Gong as Ki-Ko, bassically the japanese reading of the Chinese characters.

There are a few Japanese MA that do incorporate Ki-Ko or breathing/medidation exercises.

From what I have seen of proper Ki-ai is also closer to the chinese method of exhalation during striking.

Just some thoughts and notes.

[Former castleva]

I do not know about his existing students but I really thought he had a moderate set of his own.Well,I could be wrong.

[Stranger]

Off the top of my head......

The Bujinkan has an internal component to the bujutsu, and therefore I'd imagine the Genbukan does as well.

Taiki-ken Kenpo (although only a couple of generations out of China and away from its yiquan/dachengdao roots) has an internal component.

[Kristoffer]

different roads to the mountain top.....

[Vapour]

Well, medicne practiced in Japanese before the introduction of medical science was Kampo (Chinese way).

[Christopher M]

Depends what you mean by internal...

As you allready noted, this label has little to do with the presence or absence of qigong methods, so perhaps this should be discarded in consideration of japanese styles.

A similar argument should be made for softness.

Insofar as internal refers to a small group of styles which evolved together, and so share common training methods and principles, it would be inappropriate to use this label for any style outside of this cultural transmission - which would disclude all japanese styles.

Analyzing common principles of body use (not to be confused with training methods), some people will tell you that aikido should be included in the group of internal arts.

[Stranger]

If internal is meant to suggest the use of specific breathing and movement patterns with the intention of developing chi/ki aside from combat technique training than the arts I mentioned above would be "internal".

[Christopher M]

I'm not sure "intention to develop chi" is a good definition.

If you consider Taiki-ken as japanese, then it's certainly internal. But they explicitly practice the chinese internal arts, so I'm not sure if that's quite the same.

[Stranger]

It is difficult to consider Taiki-ken Japanese, but it is also developing along its own alternate path than yiquan or dachengdao. Its fundamental exercise of standing post is different than that in the Chinese branch of the family tree.

Perhaps this would be easier if you explained how you believe the Bujinkan's bujutsu is not internal. I fear we are not communicating effectively, rather than fully disagreeing.

[Christopher M]

I'm not saying categorically that Bujinkan is or isn't internal. I don't feel I can say that, as it seems that people use this label with wildly different connotations. Depending on what you mean by that word, it's quite possible it is.

That said, I'm confident that a qigong regime is, by no means, a qualifier of the internal arts. If we take the term in context, that is - as a description of chinese traditions, then we can observe that it's converse (external) contains just as much (and often more) emphasis on qigong.

I'm similarly confident that softness, sophistication, yielding, and emphasis on power generation are likewise not qualifiers of internal.

I suggested that a definition which we can be very confident about would be to take internal to refer to a specific, inter-related cultural transmission of martial arts. Following this definition, Bujinkan is clearly not internal.

[Stranger]

In following your suggestion, I would agree.

[Vajra]

ninpo becomes an internal art in its higher levels with its kuri kanji techniques.

[Stranger]

"ninpo becomes an internal art in its higher levels with its kuri kanji techniques."

That is what I was considering when I made my initial statement.

[phantom]

Shin shin Toitsu aikido, also known as ki society aikido, focuses on ki development more so than any other style of aikido does.

[Kempo Guy]

I think it's important to 'define' what "Internal" means to you (your art or your own perspective).

I was taught that "internal" has nothing to do with whether an art is soft, develops ki, uses ki in technique or what not. It was explained to me that "internal" had to do with your body mechanics and how you may use whole-body power while maintaining your structure and at the same time be able to be in a state of dynamic relaxation. (So in CMA terms it would mean how you would manifest various types of "jing".) It seeks to develop a feel of a 'united body' instead of a reliance on strength, as well as uniting you mind and body in order to issue and direct force.

I feel that IMA's characteristics are to never issue force until you are in an advantageous position by 'borrowing the opponents energy'; sticking and following the incoming force vector; and lastly avoidance of direct contact (never meet power with power). Also, another thing I've observed is that most styles that fall within the biomechanically efficient systems (internal) are the focus on teaching principles over techniques. Many of the internal systems teach forms but most teach sequences of movement (kinetic chains) in order to program your neuromuscular system rather than rote memorization of techniques.

I won't get into how this may differ from 'external martial arts' but will say that the above mentioned principles are found in many arts outside of Neijia that are considered by many to be "soft arts" (for instance Systema and Aikido type arts). FWIW, I look at the styles as biomechanically efficient or not.


Having said all this, I study sogo bujutsu (traditional Japanese martial arts) and although we don't have specific Kiko exercises, there is a heavy emphasis on breathing exercises as well as relaxation exercises when first introduced to the system. This all ties in to being able to be in a state of dynamic relaxation and when issuing power.

This may have been slightly off topic but I felt it may have some relevance to this discussion.

And that’s all I’ve got to say about that.

I’m off my soapbox. Thanks for listening.

KG