Shaolin-Do forum.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

With the influx of Shaolin-Do practicioners and the flood of threads relating to Shaolin-Do shouldn't those guys get their own forum by now.

Or do we simply move them do the ORA one? :D

Most of the SD guys I found rather pleasant to talk too, personally I feel that we have way too many SD threads going.

What's your thoughts.

[norther practitioner]

Way too many for a cma board ;)


:p

[Judge Pen]

We do have too many threads going. We have our own forum and, for good or bad, that is how so many new people are finding out about this place.

KL subsumed all the SD threads into one mega thread once before. That's a good idea to do again.

[ninthdrunk]

Can it be a members only club? I dont know if I can handle asking a question and having it run off topic...not that that happens or anything....hehehe...

It could just be called the "lets all play nice" forum!

Ben

[Fred Sanford]

i think a better name for it would be "ignorance is bliss" forum

[Xebsball]

hey can we get a forum for Volcano Admim?

[Fred Sanford]

while we are on the topic of forums, here's an interesting forum.......

http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/message/viewforum.php?f=2

:D

[Fu-Pow]

From that forum:

"we have invited them to the tournament. they have always asked why we don't have any open ones and here's one for them. but alas, many of the cowards in kfo are nowhere to be found (they don't even list their locations or their styles, but will bicker about SD and KY!). that one guy serpent talks trash from australia, and another guy from washington. "

Look Serpent, we're famous!!!!.....uh.....Again!!!!

[Fu-Pow]

Written by the meecer from the Mullins forum:


Figured I would throw this up since I've seen a few posters from here pop up in the KFO forums. Don't use the tablets placed at the Shaolin temple as proof of our art and our grandmaster's authenticity. It is an honor that the tablet has been placed there and even more so at the Fukien temple since it is the first. But these tablets are placed after a sizable donation has been made to the temple. Many other schools have tablets placed as well, even non Chinese schools. The biggest honor is that the head abbot would take time out of his schedule to spend with GM Sin. Another big honor is the story related on Master Schaefer's site where the old masters told us our art looks like what they were taught years ago.

Oh man this is too easy...like shooting fish in a barrel.

Good idea...meecer...you wouldn't want to use that argument because it is crap. Better think of some other ones.

[Fred Sanford]

LOL, yea there are a few gems on there.

i like this one personally, by themeecer:


Problem is I have gotten fed up with them of late. After going to the tourney and spending so much time with GM Sin at the seminar I have come to the conclusion that most of the KFOers are bunch of whiney babies that do not deserve an ounce more of my time. I have friends on here that are all worried about making our art more appealing to current kung fu students of other arts. I could give a flying flip about them. We don't need them and sure as heck don't need their approval. We have an unending amount of new students out there and have no reason to worry about a few people that doubt our lineage. Most of it stems from jealousy; they don't even have a fraction of what we teach so they try to discredit us. Take heart that you are studying the most comprehensive art in the world with a direct link to the Shaolin temple. Fortunately our art left China before the 1950s or we would all be studying wushu instead of the pure art we have now.

[norther practitioner]

Problem is I have gotten fed up with them of late. After going to the tourney and spending so much time with GM Sin at the seminar I have come to the conclusion that most of the KFOers are bunch of whiney babies that do not deserve an ounce more of my time. I have friends on here that are all worried about making our art more appealing to current kung fu students of other arts. I could give a flying flip about them. We don't need them and sure as heck don't need their approval. We have an unending amount of new students out there and have no reason to worry about a few people that doubt our lineage. Most of it stems from jealousy; they don't even have a fraction of what we teach so they try to discredit us. Take heart that you are studying the most comprehensive art in the world with a direct link to the Shaolin temple. Fortunately our art left China before the 1950s or we would all be studying wushu instead of the pure art we have now.

This was posted by themeecer over there...lol

I'm not trying to pick on you man... but that is kind of funny. Again your lack of knowledge of cma is rediculous. Just because this or that art came out of China after a certain point it is wushu?

Whatever man.

tcma should look a lot like wushu, as they have all similar techs. because (shockingly) wushu is based on what..... tcma... holy crap, what a concept.

As far as pure, don't even get into that, it might be pure Shaolin do, but the lack of resemblance to other southern shaolin based systems is what I question.

[Fred Sanford]

hey you posted what I posted!

[norther practitioner]

LOL, that forum is a hoot...


I could take 'em. And I suck.

posted by trilobite... speaking of us. the KFOers... apperantly we all suck because we don't study the "most comprehensive martial art"..

[ninthdrunk]

I was hoping that someone could give us a list of what our forms are supposed to look like. What is it that we do, that we arent supposed to be doing? What are other cma styles doing that we dont do? Thanks!

Ben

ps. If anyone in the NY area (Ithaca here) wants to get together sometime and school me as to how its supposed to be done, I would love to see it, and hear what you have to say!


its funny that usually there is only one and often zero guest at the mullins forum...now there are five. Are you guys enjoying yourselves?

[Felipe Bido]

I could comment on the Xingyi forms...

But I am sure some of you SD'ers will say "Well...how do you know?...have you seen every Xingyiquan style there is out there? (In fact, I have)..etc.

Others will say that I have jumped into the 'SD Bandwagon'.

So, man, if you want my honest opinion, you can ask me privately.

[norther practitioner]

I've recently worked out with a SDer, who was a good martial artist, I've also done taiji with some, one who actually knew what was going on, but from what I've seen, a lot of there stuff needed a lot of work and it seemed they weren't getting the time in that should be dedicated to an art like that. I wouldn't do SD, thats all, I'm just saying though... there is a reason why the comtemporary chang chuan looks the way it does... same with the nan chuan, they were originally based on tcma... oh, and your forums are great...

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by ninthdrunk
I was hoping that someone could give us a list of what our forms are supposed to look like. What is it that we do, that we arent supposed to be doing? What are other cma styles doing that we dont do? Thanks!



I already did that in the thread I started.

[ninthdrunk]

Sorry, I couldnt find anywhere that describes the difference in what our forms look like and what other traditional cma forms look like. If you have already written this out, would you please direct me to it?

Ben

[crazymaddrunk]

No, Northern Practitioner, you just suck PERIOD. Again you diss a style and laugh about it like you're doing it jokingly. What are you, a politician? You try and hide your biased opinion on an art you have no idea about (except what you read somewhere, and you're just trying to be "cool" and jump in with the loser-crowd.)

NP, you're a flaming idiot, along with the other idiots like Fool-Pow.

[crazymaddrunk]

there is a reason why the comtemporary chang chuan looks the way it does

YEAH, BECAUSE THEY'RE A BUNCH OF FLY THROUGH THE AIR MORONS WITH EMBROIDERY KICKS AND LIMP-D!CK PUNCHES LOL

[norther practitioner]

I had a fealing you'd be coming through here...

Dude, get over it, you don't even do SD anymore......

Lets just say, if I wanted to learn Xing Yi, I'd go to a Xing Yi school. If I wanted to learn taiji, I'd go to a taiji school, etc. I'm laughing about it because it is funny. It's funny, as my tantui (which is way old school) has a good deal of the techs. that I do in a B level contemporary wushu form I know as well. Now if you'd like to discuss something, than I'll be more than happy to engage in a conversation, but as you seem to just put people down, I doubt that'll happen. So you just basicaly say that anyone who does wushu is a moron, thats great, you just proved your own ignorance.

[CaptinPickAxe]

"white monkey exits the cave" in SD is completely different from the 7 star version.

Once again...the SD thread regresses into name calling...predictable

[KC Elbows]

Frankly, I've been having a perfectly civil convo with one member here who practices SD, and ditto on two threads about the topic, all without us by definition having to agree on everything. I'll just assume that either themeecer was having a bad day when he posted that, or it's old, because he seems to be on good terms with people here lately. If he truly meant that, that's too bad, and he's mistaken.

I'd also like to reiterate that SOME of the SD posters do a better job staying on topic than many other members, and I assume that we aren't the topic of choice among all of them on other forums.

Also, some people might feel a little less persecuted if they used their ignore functions a little more. It would also completely change the context of most discussions. Or just ignore the trolling. Usually, people who make blanket statements about all members just fail to ignore the ones that bother them, and blame the whole forum for one person or group.

[KC Elbows]

And crazymaddrunk, could you follow the same three members to a couple more threads and argue? I'm tired of having to read all of your comprehensive analyses of martial movements and your detailed recitation of kung fu history based off of research utilizing diverse source material and all. Thanks.

[crazymaddrunk]

It's so easy to come here and bad-mouth me because I don't stay on topic, or whatever. Never mind the "know-it-alls- because-I've-been-practicing-kung fu (the one and only real style because that's what I'm learning right now)-for-2-years". Simply put, you bad-mouth a style, I'll bad mouth you. So frankly stfu, you whiny cry-baby geeks that couldn't fight your way out of a wet napkin if your life depended on it.

You're right, I don't study SD anymore, but I DO study Hung Gar, a real-man's fighting art, not this northern crap that everyone tries to shove down your throat. Or not Combat SC that's basically REAL Shuai Chiao mixed with JKD (might as well be, BJJ, wrestling, boxing, etc).

My Sifu basically agrees with me, you put down one art because of your lacking in what you're currently studying. You're feeling insecure, either that, or your old playground bully is coming out of the closet.

You sound like a bunch of pansy Canadians or Aussies.

[crazymaddrunk]

Hey Nancy boy, STFU

[Vash]

[Firstly, my apologies to Kung Lek for the psuedo-cursing. Secondly, apologies to the rest who have no interest in immature name calling/cursing contests]

You are my b!tch. I am in fact Your Daddy. Your art may well be good, but your practice of it amounts to a beaver anal-raping a dead koala in a Catholic Church. Except more dirty. And a bit smellier.

A WAY FOR ALL TO FORGET THE TROUBLES OF ANY STYLE:

VASH CAN WHUP YO' ASH, BIZZATCH! :D

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by crazymaddrunk
Hey Nancy boy, STFU

Thus proving my point.

By the way, don't you find it ironic at all that you say this:

"My Sifu basically agrees with me, you put down one art because of your lacking in what you're currently studying. You're feeling insecure, either that, or your old playground bully is coming out of the closet."

...directly after putting down all of northern kung fu and a branch of SC, as well as JKD? So, what is it you're lacking that causes you to put down these styles?:p

Try conversing with people once in a while, dude.

[The Willow Sword]

As far as the question you have about what the SD forms are supposed to look like in relation to "traditional CMA"?
well that question is a subjective one and it can be summed up in the beginning forms of SD. i mean you as well as i remember what those forms are. they are straight line forms(like karate or kenpo forms) and i would say that this continues all the way up to 1st degree brown. before SD when i was learning mantis and pakua stuff i noticed that the forms i learned moved in a circle and had movements that turned to all directions. but as you know in hsing yi the movements are straight line, linear, and hsing yi is a traditional CMA right?
the arguments here posted by the SD bashers mainly focus on the cliams of the history. there was a brief scuffle on the forms itself and what they looked like and it is still poked at at times. however when you look at the scope of what a form is and what it is supposed to look like you get a mixed bag of things and you find out that Forms are whatever they chose to be for you.
i mean try doing some of the forms you have learned at SD in a circle, eliminate the linear movements of such forms as "flying tiger comes out of the cave" and move such that you are now being circular and multidirectional. you will find then that what you have done is made a shift and transition to a more traditional CMA approach to SD forms.. But hey i gave all those up and now its just Hsing i and pakua. but even Sd pakua moves in a circle and is multidirection which is what pa kua is supposed to be, however i feel as though the Sd classical pakua form is a bit watered down to what i was learning before and what i have learned since leaving SD. but there are some Sd forms that are actually really good like the 1st black tigers. even though they are abit linear you can still do with them what i suggested with the beginning forms. Hey man the ofrms are yours now i mean you learned them you cant forget them really, so you can make them your own and evolve them to fit you and i think THATS the MAIN essence of any philosphy in martial arts is that when you learn the basics either straight line stuff or circular you will make it your own and evolve the form and you will evolve.
oops i am rambling. anyway. thats my say on the matter.
TWS

[Master of Fists]

Bravo, crazymaddrunk, you are absolutely correct. These guys here are clearly amateurs who do not understand anything about real martial arts or life.

They trash talk other styles because their styles are trash. Why else?

I can tell you with all assurance that not one of these guys could touch a real martial artist in a match for points. we won't even discuss in a rwal fight. They're weaklings and like you said, pansies.

So many have no idea the real power that comes from practicing the martial arts as our forefathers meant them to be. And even fewer appreciate that we shared those arts with the west, who did not have any access to real martial arts. Someday, there will be real masters from the west, but you can be sure it won't be ingrates like these guys, but people who know a fraction of the power of a real chinese master. You can bet they'll be thankful to their chinese master, and not like these upstarts who believe martial arts from china are about them becoming as great as their betters- that's the ego of some of these practitioners- they actually think that they can be as good as their teacher! Maybe some can, with their teacher being from Liverpool, but not a real chinese master.

Someday, there might even be a western grandmaster, but I can't see that happening, considering the lack of humility of this group.

KFO members, don't waste my time with your childish challenges. Someone of my level wouldn't even consider crossing hands with such inexperienced children. Like the old masters, I have practiced the old way, and you'd never score a point on me with the pathetic discipline you've shown here.

JKD indeed.

[ninthdrunk]

Willow Sword-

Good to see you posting again! I totally agree with you. Master Schaefer would have us do stuff like that a lot back in martindale. I pretty much do the same thing that youre talking about, but in a different way. I do a type of shadow-boxing with the katas. I try to see what I have learned from the stances by seeing what they translate to as far as stepping. Most of the time it all turns into circles! Side stepping just comes naturally. Its funny that you mention the black tigers, cause thats where I see it the most. Im getting off subject a little here.

Thanks for the info! Are you back yet?

Ben

[MonkeySlap Too]

"You can describe water, but it will not make the mouth wet."

-- Takuan

Please note that the best explanation of why SD is CMA is that 'they walk in circles'. I think that true CMA is best experienced, and only then will they develop the eyes to see, and open thier hearts to the truth about thier path.

Me, I don't care. But I would be inteested in discussing Ie Man Ching - are there any photos of him around? Not just drawings? What about other players in Bandung? Who knew him? I've developed some contacts in Indonesia. I'd be curious to see how they were viewed 'back in the day.'

[ninthdrunk]

Monkeyslap-

I would actually be pretty interested in reading what you can find out....if its "legitimate"! Really though, keep us posted to what you are finding out, and if you dont mind, who you are talking to. Oh, and its Ie Chang Ming...I think...is there a reason why the two names would be reversed?

As for the circular thing...dont let his explanation keep you from offering yours. I wanted to hear from everyone that practices, or has seen traditional cma compared to shaolin do. I have just recently met a master very close to my home that teaches spirit mountain kung fu...its vietnamese apparently. He also trained for a few years with a monk living in dc that trained in either the temple or one of the shaolin headquarters in china...I have only gotten to talk to him once. He showed me some of his spirit mountain forms, and next time we get together we are going to compare kung fu. He has really good forms ability!! I am ver y anxious to see his kung fu, but would still like for everyone to describe the differences of cma with shaolin do. Especially those of you that claim it is kempo.

Thanks,

Ben

[Master of Fists]

You want Ie Man Ching, and haven't even gained introduction to Sin The? That you can't see the problem with that is beyond reason. Should you have access to your president, when your vice president doesn't even think you're worthy to speak with?

If you wish to speak with him, try starting over the right way, in the schools that teach what he taught, and then you might have something to talk with hm about, maybe. Until then, until you've studied under a real master, what could you understand that a real master had to say to you?

The books and magazines are filled with people who would be masters, but the real ones all have the same thing in common- a connection to a millenum old practice, not jkd, lol.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Master of Fists I have only one response to that:

"Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaaaaa"

That was beautiful, very rich, and perfectly sums up why I think you guys are frauds. It is more than the bizarre mix of material, the contradictory, unverifiable history, and the lack of body mechanics related to any of the CMA styles you profess. It is also the cult-like group think. You really are clueless. I'd be careful if I were you, not everyone is as kind to children as I am. You might get spanked talking like that.

Ninthdrunk: Forgive if I got the name wrong, I've been working my @ss of, and am barely lucid. One of my Kun Tao teachers postulates that Sin The' may just be misunderstood, so I thought it would be interesting to see what status SD has in Indonesia. Mind you, I agree that proves next to nothing, but it is interesting from a contextual point of view.

[ninthdrunk]

Monkeyslap-

Oh, dont worry about the name! I was just offering that so that you wouldnt spen a lot of time looking for the wrong person..hehehe! I do kinda agree with Iron fist, though. Have you tried talking or writing grandmaster sin? He is a very very nice person. If you took the right approach, he might be more than happy to help you out. He could tell you exactly why he says the things that he does. I dont think grandmaster sin has lied about anything (personal opinion, dont hate me), but I am sure he has dealt with people saying "that's not what my teacher/the history book says" before! I obviously cant speak for him, and he is a very busy man, but I think you should definitely give it a shot. By all means, if you are wanting to find out shaolin do's status in Indonesia, go ahead. Mind you, look into what it was like at the time grandmaster Ie was training students there...I dont know how things are run there now. Happy hunting!!

Ben

ps. he was featured in an Indonesian magazine called Juros (i think that is how you spell it). Maybe that would be a good place to start! I know that everyone has the same feelings about people in magazines...Just cause they are in there doesnt mean they are really as good as they say, and others think, they are! Hope that helps.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Ninth Drunk - a good response. Once I have my head above water, I'll take you up on that. I would be curious to speak to Mas The' from the standpoint of his training in Indonesia. The magazine is called Jurus. Jurus is jargon from IMA that refers to upper-body practice, although in some areas it refers to what you would call katas. Not to confuse things, but while Silat denotes IMA, it is also the generic word for martial arts in Indonesia.

I think that would be the polite thing - although I'm not sure a discussion would change an opinion based upon what I have seen as the fruit of the teaching.

[crazymaddrunk]

MonkeyCrap- Frankly, who cares what you have to say? Who made you the ambassador to CMA? Why do you feel you must "investigate" an art, that in your eyes, is fake anyway? Is someone making you study SD? Holding a gun to your head? You would probably be better of studying your own MA besdies putting in so much time investigating another.

The truth is, ninthdrunk, that even if God himself came up to MonekyPunk and told him it's history is true, he's not going to come on here and legitimize it. Hell, no, any investigation headed by this queer will only produce negative results. In other words, he'll lie his a$$ off and try and be the hero of the board.

And you wouldn't spank anyone, idiot. I would love to just slap you in the mouth and your mama's too for having give birth to a loser like yourself.

[crazymaddrunk]

Try conversing with people once in a while, dude.


Conversing? Go back and read ALL the SD threads. The ones where many SD people have conversed in a regualr manner, explaining different aspects and history of SD. Does it do any good? No. So, no more nice conversations from me.

[KC Elbows]

No more nice conversation from you? Did you converse nicely at some point that I missed? Will this conversation that is not nice be easily discernable from your nice conversation, or will it take some sort of detector to measure the sudden but perhaps subtle decay of niceness in your tone? I would just like to know, because thus far you've been like Minnesota homemaker nice, and I'm really gonna miss that when it goes away.

Anyway, better SD members than you seem perfectly able to converse and get along with people. And you're disrupting their conversation as well. In your missesota homemaker sort of way. Who p1ssed in your panakouken?

[KC Elbows]

Word to angrymaddrunk's mother.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
As far as the question you have about what the SD forms are supposed to look like in relation to "traditional CMA"?
well that question is a subjective one and it can be summed up in the beginning forms of SD. i mean you as well as i remember what those forms are. they are straight line forms(like karate or kenpo forms) and i would say that this continues all the way up to 1st degree brown. before SD when i was learning mantis and pakua stuff i noticed that the forms i learned moved in a circle and had movements that turned to all directions. but as you know in hsing yi the movements are straight line, linear, and hsing yi is a traditional CMA right?
the arguments here posted by the SD bashers mainly focus on the cliams of the history. there was a brief scuffle on the forms itself and what they looked like and it is still poked at at times. however when you look at the scope of what a form is and what it is supposed to look like you get a mixed bag of things and you find out that Forms are whatever they chose to be for you.
i mean try doing some of the forms you have learned at SD in a circle, eliminate the linear movements of such forms as "flying tiger comes out of the cave" and move such that you are now being circular and multidirectional. you will find then that what you have done is made a shift and transition to a more traditional CMA approach to SD forms.. But hey i gave all those up and now its just Hsing i and pakua. but even Sd pakua moves in a circle and is multidirection which is what pa kua is supposed to be, however i feel as though the Sd classical pakua form is a bit watered down to what i was learning before and what i have learned since leaving SD. but there are some Sd forms that are actually really good like the 1st black tigers. even though they are abit linear you can still do with them what i suggested with the beginning forms. Hey man the ofrms are yours now i mean you learned them you cant forget them really, so you can make them your own and evolve them to fit you and i think THATS the MAIN essence of any philosphy in martial arts is that when you learn the basics either straight line stuff or circular you will make it your own and evolve the form and you will evolve.
oops i am rambling. anyway. thats my say on the matter.
TWS

Nice post TWS.

Although, the whole distinction that kung fu is circular and karate in linear is, as you pointed out, somewhat of a myth. Several traditional CMA forms, even non-Hsing-I forms, are linerar in nature. The techniques in them may be circular in terms of generating power, but the flow is still more linear than it is not.

As for our Pa Kua being watered down, is it also likely that the pa kua taught in other lineages have been embelished over the years? I watched a clip on the difference between contemporary BaGua and traditioanl BaGua posted here a couple of months ago, and the Ba Gua the old man was doing looked much like what we were taught. If anything it was a bit simplier in the number of postures. Just a thought.

[Judge Pen]

"I've recently worked out with a SDer, who was a good martial artist, I've also done taiji with some, one who actually knew what was going on, but from what I've seen, a lot of there stuff needed a lot of work and it seemed they weren't getting the time in that should be dedicated to an art like that."

Hey NP,

I was curious who did you work out with in SD? What were your opinions as to what needed to be worked on, etc?

I totally understand what you are saying about time. If one is to learn a patchwork MA, then one must put in extra time or they will not understand all of the nuisances of the different styles represented in SD. The only really good SD practitioners that I have seen are those that study/teach full time. The rest may be good at some things, but lacking in others.

Just curious since you have a perspective on Sd from your observations. Thanks,

JP

Edit:

I tried to PM you this question, but your box was full.

[Shaolin-Do]

With so many forms, its of course going to take significant amounts of time practicing, which most of the SDers do not have, or just dont care to spend that much time training.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
With so many forms, its of course going to take significant amounts of time practicing, which most of the SDers do not have, or just dont care to spend that much time training.

exactly. That is one of the largest criticisms I have, and its of the practitioners (including myself), and not the art.

[Shaolin-Do]

"and its of the practitioners "
Just want all the anti-SDers to read that again.
;)

[KC Elbows]

Perhaps, but does having all those forms actually put out better skilled martial artists than more concise systems? In other words, do all those forms in some systems only serve to establish and self perpetuate an elite class, while ignoring the fact that a more concise system might make those with less time in class the equals of the so-called elite who spend more time learning forms, and make the elite far better martial artists?[fyi, it's a trick question- there are some systems where such things have occured for precisely that reason, to perpetuate a heirarchy, so in some cases, the answer is yes]

In otherwords, it's fine to choose learning many many techniques, but to take people with limited in-class time and teach them that way is less efficient than teaching a more concise system with strong principles and having them fight that way from the start. And before making the judgement that a more concise system would be inferior, you would need to reference the challenge record of a stylist from the more "complex" style to an equivalent fighter from a less "complex" style. I mean, some of those students who are floundering on certain forms are probably doing well on others- now, if those ones they focus on had sufficient depth as to be called comprehensive, then they could still hold their own against those whose focus is broader, but if those forms lack depth, then they are going to be perceived as falling behind, which may or may not be true.

I just think it's a little elitist to hold all failures to be those of the student's, and not even entertain the idea that a curriculum could be improved. Not saying you, JP, were necessarily benefitting from that elitism, since you included yourself in that statement, but it still doesn't ring right to me.

I see a lot of "it wouldn't have lasted if it wasn't good" in referrence to lots of traditional arts, and this is just a logical fallacy, it could have lasted if it was no good, I refer to the pop tart for proof of that, or the corn nut. History is full of examples of ignorance being passed for millenium as knowledge. To rely on this alone as the litmus test for martial efficiency is pure folly. IF the techniques and training methodology are good, then they WILL stand up to rigorous testing, in the now, and that is the only way anyone will ever know a style's usefulness.

I know this is a bit of a carry over from another thread, just the comment about keeping up with forms reminded me of that. It just seems to me that past a point, forms get in the way of fighting more than they help it, when the number of forms becomes unruly and, imo, unnecessary.

[Shaolin-Do]

"but does having all those forms actually put out better skilled martial artists"
No, but training longer does. ;)
I feel that some students may become lost along the way and muddle with forms, some students are "forms hunters" gathering as many as they can. But those are beginners IME. The more experienced SD crowd more or less will pick and choose what to work on, what forms to make concise and flowing. Just because the forms are there, does not mean your focus must be on ALL forms. Its inteded to give you a broadened perspective of MA, the ability to confront different situations appropriately. And yes, its unfair to try and push it all off on the students. Im sure theres a few SD teachers out there who should not be teaching, but dont let a couple bad apples spoil the bunch.

[KC Elbows]

But is it entirely impossible that the curriculum could be more concise and still cover the same principles?

[Shaolin-Do]

Or it could be larger and cover the same principals :)
Principals are principals, are what make the art what it is. They shouldnt change. Maybe lessening the load, or possibly allowing students to pick and choose what system(s) they wish to master at first black would help... JP and I have spoken of a few things that could be changed, but thats all up to GM Sin and SM Leonard... People who probably want things to remain as they are.
And when you are dealing with such a massive number of forms, cutting out a few isnt going to make a serious difference. Main thing I disagree with is stuff like seminars. Its d@mn near impossible to learn an entire form in a day, much less in a few hours, and several students think that the more forms they have = the better they are... Maybe we should tell new students that this isnt true? Work what you have? Although I really like a couple of the forms I learned in seminars (yes I was an ingnorant forms hunter once)... ;)

[Judge Pen]

I think I see where you are coming from. Let me answer your first question: No. Having all those forms does not actually put out better skilled martial artists than more concise systems. It is designed to make the martial artists more well-rounded than a single, "concise", system.

For example, I am known in my circles as a close range striker. I am the most comfortable, natually, when people crowd and get in close. That's my game. Because of this, I sometimes have difficulty with longer-range fighters. Those that can move in and out and attack well from longer distances. People who know my tendancies will do everything to stay out of my range.

Because of this, my sifu is drilling my on longer range techniques. He is teaching me long fist techniques to supplement my own proven methods. I am getting better and defending and attacking from the longer ranges and this is forcing people to try to move inside (where I am the happiest). This is the benifit of a system that includes diverse techniques and forms. Could it be more concise and efficient? Arguably, but I wouldn't know how.

The criticism of the practitioners goes to all MA and not just Sd; however, having a system with access to several different forms makes it a danger to get lazy and not put the work into learning the application and intent behind the differing principles.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Main thing I disagree with is stuff like seminars. Its d@mn near impossible to learn an entire form in a day, much less in a few hours, and several students think that the more forms they have = the better they are...

Absolutely. My personal seminar philosophy is that I will take a seminar on a form I intend to learn and focus on in the future so that I am introduced to the form's techniques so I will have an intorduction when I settle down to focus on the form.

[Shaolin-Do]

Maybe this is a fact that our sifu's should advocate to the newer students?

[MasterKiller]

He is teaching me long fist techniques to supplement my own proven methods. What chang chuan forms does SD have?

[Judge Pen]

Actually, I was referring to the 1st Road of hua. I wasn't even learning the entire form, just the first part of the form and some of the elements that my teacher worked up into some sparring drills.

We have a few long fist forms, but I don't know what they are called. If you went to the SD tournament in Lexington it seemed everyone was doing either a hua form or a long fist form.

[KC Elbows]

Good answer. And to clarify, that was by no means just aimed at SD. As I've said before, there are schools of my own style that have a number of lesser forms used as intermediate forms. Unfortunately, it makes it difficult to discuss the art with their students, because the intermediate forms don't always have a lot of six elbows in them, and so you end up in discussions where you are talking about six elbows, and they are unknowingly talking about choy li fut.

Good discussion. I also favor the in close thing, though I've got the advantage of starting out in longfist.

[Shaolin-Do]

I dont really care what range Im in. :)
"And to clarify, that was by no means just aimed at SD."
:confused:
Me or the art?
Maybe its time for a name change. ;)

I dont know any specifically long fist forms, but I do know a few techniques. :)

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
I dont really care what range Im in. :)


Come on SD, you know you want to grab them and throw them!

[Shaolin-Do]

Well.... Yeah.... Yeah.
hehehehe
Sometimes I just feel like staying at long range tho... Sometimes I like to work inside... Sometimes I like to clinch... I really need to hit the mats some more tho.

[KC Elbows]

Not referring to you.

Have you considered renaming yourself "TMA"? That should avoid any confusion.:D

[Shaolin-Do]

How about "him" or "it"?
Maybe "Kung Fu"
?
:D

Maybe I already have another name lurking about... :eek:
Or maybe not. Now that Ive got you thinking, Ill shut up.
;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
How about "him" or "it"?
Maybe "Kung Fu"
?
:D

Maybe I already have another name lurking about... :eek:
Or maybe not. Now that Ive got you thinking, Ill shut up.
;)

Yes Captain :D

[Serpent]

Yeah, Pickaxe - yo uthink we hadn't already spotted that one?

Lordy, I'm famous again in yet another forum. Maybe I'll have to pop over there and have a chat with the SD folks.

:)

[Shaolin-Do]

lofl.
You silly people. I made a name but havent used it yet. CPA is a person. I live a mile or so away from him. He *gasp* has a computer as well.
If I was using my name I wouldnt tell you.
:p

[CaptinPickAxe]

I've spotted many a things...

many...a...things...



and I mean MANY!

[CaptinPickAxe]

Holy shnikes! I'm a person?!? I've never been so touched in my life. Thats the first time I've been called a person let alone a human...


*pffft* :p

I'm not Shaolin-Do, but I do know how to beat the hell out of a midget weatherman.

[Shaolin-Do]

I think we should call them the "lesser tall" or "Vertically challenged".

[CaptinPickAxe]

1/4 a person?

knee biters?

head-but to the nuts?

oh, I'm going to burn in a burning lake of lava for this one...

[shaolinarab]

since we've been discussing the abovementioned topics for a bit aside from the little digression on what name SD should switch his name to ;) , i thought it would be appropriate to post the following from KF ezine on wah lum mantis. very interesting...especially the second paragraph....

"Wah Lum - Deeper Knowledge
A deeper understanding of Wah Lum Tan Tui Northern Praying Mantis
by Sifu Michael Johnson and Sifu Mimi Chan

To deepen your understanding of Wah Lum Kung Fu it is necessary to research the meaning of the movements. This meaning, known as the movements, "application" is limited only by the individual student,s patience and perseverance in their study. It is the mark of an immature understanding to label Northern styles of Kung Fu, like Wah Lum, as being appropriate only for "long range" fighting. Certainly the extended blocking, striking and evasive maneuvers can be most easily understood if the opponent is at a long distance from the practitioner. But less frequently will students practice with the opponent in middle range, closer to them, and even less often at close range, where the same techniques that worked in one fashion at other ranges work differently, but just as well.

Take, for instance, one sequence from a Wah Lum basic exercise Dropping Horse. In the long range the application could be move back, chop block on the opponent,s kick, return a kick, then step into lady stance to evade. In the mid-range the application could be chop block on the opponent,s punching arm, kick their front leg, and turn. In the close range the application could be our left hand blocks and lifts their punching arm, right hand chopping down into the rib/hip area, kick to their back leg, your forceful step into lady stance cuts their front leg, then turn. Closer still is grappling range. Same moves. To counter a grip on your right arm withdraw your arm quickly inside your left while rolling the left arm upward, kick their back knee, step on the back of their front leg in lady stance.

One small sequence, many different meanings revealed through dedicated study, but mostly, through time. Commonly heard in America is Bruce Lee's saying, "Absorb what is useful, then discard the rest." The proper response is another old saying, "Don,t throw the baby out with the bathwater." The major problem with "absorb what is useful" philosophy is that it tends to lead to quick judgements based on immature study. There is merit and lessons to be learned from all aspects in life; however in order to learn them it takes patience. The Northern Style student who studies close range styles like Silat and Arnis to fill in the perceived "holes" in their main system isn,t being clever, just impatient. As Grandmaster Pui Chan always taught us, patience and perseverance are some of the keys to martial arts. It doesn,t matter what style you are studying, to find the deeper meaning and to comprehend what it truly has to offer can only really be done over time. The real and complete value of a martial art like Wah Lum Kung Fu is absorbed only during the course of a long-term study, as the art reveals itself through repetition and research."

good stuff, huh? as judge pen and ninth drunk said, this is the goal for all of us, that is to practice our forms and techniques as much as we can in order to constantly discover new applications and such. the trick is TIME of course...

:D

[Vash]

Dang skippy. Gonna cut and paste that article, and keep it in my Folder of Important and Useful Stuff.