Mantak Chia or B.K. Frantzis?

[Hammer]

I am interested in getting some books, videos, tapes, etc... on the subject of meditation for my studies. Has anyone here had experience with either Mantak Chias teachings, or B.K. Frantzis? If you have studied either authors materials, and have an opinion from your own personal experience, I would appreciate your sharing them. Thanks.

[dwid]

I'd suggest going with neither.

If you're interested in meditation, there are much better resources available. Depending on where you live, there may well be a buddhist meditation group nearby. If so, check it out. In my experience, such groups tend to attract people with a wide variety of beliefs, so you won't be looked down upon if you're just there to learn to meditate. As far as books on the subject, Zen mind, Beginner's mind by Shunryu Suzuki is a good place to start, though it may not be the best book on methods, maybe check out something like meditation for dummies, if such a book exists.

If you're really interested in qi gong, as your query on those two guys would suggest, again there are much better resources. Nothing will suitably replace direct study with a knowledgeable instructor. If you can't find one, wait for a weekend seminar or something to come near your area. One weekend of real instruction will likely be better than months of book learning.

[QuaiJohnCain]

DWID- I think it is fairly obvious by what Hammer is curious about, is that he wants meditations to build and circulate energy, not just some buddhist concentration exercise. The second part of your answer has a bit more significance, but you're still hedging. By the way, there IS a book called Meditation for Dummies. Maybe you should read it.

HAMMER- Chia's stuff is OK, but you definitely won't get anywhere with it without a teacher. All of Chia's books and tapes are really written as reference material for those who have some instruction from a living teacher. I personally found Frantzis's stuff to be lacking in actual useable material, most of it just seemed like commentary.

What Dwid was right about- you need a teacher to learn this stuff.

If you must have something to begin with, however, "The Tao of Meditation" by Jou, Hung-Tswa. Is darn good. Also check out the Tien Tao Chi Kung correspondence course...
http://www.bambootemple.com/shaolinbrand/htmqigong/default.htm

[dwid]

By the way, there IS a book called Meditation for Dummies. Maybe you should read it.

Judging by the unprovoked hostility of your post, maybe you should read it.

Personally, I'm a little past the stage where such a primer might be helpful.


I think it is fairly obvious by what Hammer is curious about, is that he wants meditations to build and circulate energy

I try not to make too many assumptions about what people are after on these boards.

[Hammer]

Thanks for your response dwid, I was expecting at least one response similiar to yours. It seems alot of the posters on this board share your need for self importance and superiority by posting such drivel.

It seems to me that some of the posters here, like yourself, need to feel superior about their training methods and put others down and give esoteric answers to simple questions, so as to appear sophisticated and complex to the apparent dullard populace here. You only succeed in looking foolish, shallow, and small.

I really like your shot at my obvious intellectual inferiority by suggesting I, "check out something like meditation for dummies". What a wonderful example of the martial way you must be at your school or in your "buddhist meditation group". Your humbleness is staggering.

You actually reveal your true self in your statement, " In my experience, such groups tend to attract people with a wide variety of beliefs, so you won't be looked down upon if you're just there to learn to meditate.". You concern yourself with being, "looked down upon"? Ahh, your true character is revealed- the fearful little man with a poor self-image, low confidence, and a strong need for validation and acceptance by others. How sad. Pitiful.

After digesting your post, I have no question that the methods you use to try and achieve "enlightenment" are of no use to myself.

Oh, and if you think you are, "a little past the stage where such a primer might be helpful", in response to the book Meditation for Dummies- think again. Until a book comes out titled, "Meditation for frustrated martial artists with inferiority complexes" you might want to give "Dummies" a read.

QuaiJohnCain,

Thanks for the reply. You are more perceptive than the great dwid in understanding that I want to learn to storage, and flow of Chi. Hey, I live in the San Diego area too, is there a teacher in the area that you use? Let me know.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Persoanlly , if there was no choice between the two then go for Chia easily.

Frantzis should be avoided at all costs, he is of a low order.

[bodhitree]

I like some of what Chia writes. I often wonder about the origins of some of his practices though, like the inner smile. Also his 6 healing sounds are different than the six healing sounds in an old KFQ magazine article. Yang Jwing Ming has some good qigong books and Shou Yu Liang has some qigong videotapes, but bottom line the best way is with a teacher.

[dwid]

I was trying to be helpful.

I apologize if I came across as arrogant, but the vagueness of your post seemed to indicate that you were looking for some intro-level stuff. "Meditation for Dummies" was not intended as a dig. I've heard nothing but good things about the "for Dummies" series as intro level stuff. If it had existed when I started meditating, I probably would have read it instead of the ubiquitous "how to meditate" by Leshan, which I'm sure is at best on the same level as Meditation for Dummies.

Anyway, I fail to see how my post indicated any sense of superiority about my methods. What I stated was in fact the best information I could provide.

I should have known better.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Judging by the unprovoked hostility of your post, maybe you should read it.[/QUOTE]

What, did you think qigong turns people into Mother-Theresa-in-a-kung-fu-suit?


Personally, I'm a little past the stage where such a primer might be helpful.

I don't agree.


Originally posted by dwid to Hammer
I apologize if I came across as arrogant, but the vagueness of your post seemed to indicate that you were looking for some intro-level stuff.

I try not to make too many assumptions about what people are after on these boards.

Uhh, here he was in the QIGONG and Meditation forum asking about people like Mantak Chia and BK Frantzis, and you go and tell him to try out Buddhist stuff? Your answer was nothing but assumption! That IS arrogant.

[dwid]

Uhh, here he was in the QIGONG and Meditation forum asking about people like Mantak Chia and BK Frantzis, and you go and tell him to try out Buddhist stuff? Your answer was nothing but assumption! That IS arrogant.

Here is the final attempt I will make to explain myself. I saw a very vague question that nobody had responded to, and knowing how little traffic this area of KFO gets, I attempted to answer it as generally as possible. My assumption was, based on the phrasing of the question, that it was coming from someone with little or no qigong experience, as I could think of no other reason to be looking to books and tapes for education in qigong.

In response to that attempt, both you and Hammer have made some pretty broad and insulting assumptions about me and my level of training. That is fine. I just don't understand the level of hostility. The meat of my initial post was the same as yours, that nothing will replace a good qigong instructor. If the rest of the post did not supply useful information, then ignore it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Perhaps, just perhaps.. the need to point out the flaws of others is, itself, a characteristic that could be considered "arrogant".. very few of us in here actually know each other, so it seems a little presumptive to accuse relatively benign remarks as indicators of personality flaws.. If we spent as much effort building friendships and looking for the commonalities in our experiences this forum could be more attractive.

The saddness is that too many people in these forums look for reasons to stir-up controversy.. too much antagonism can cause the truly interested people to look elsewhere for information.. this speaks poorly for a community of people trying to improve the image of CMA.. These forums are a great gift of the technological age, why, then, do some feel the need to reduce it back to the stone-age..

If one's meditation is producing the intended results, these issues would not surface.. As a suggestion, try to discern the difference between the ritual of meditation and the act of meditating.. try to determine the ultimate goal, then seeking a teacher will have more meaning.. Too often, people get caught-up in the ritual and miss the actual meditation..

Be well..

[Serpent]

Wow, lots of b!tchiness in here!

Dwid, I think what you said is ok. The others are the *******s here.

[Ray Pina]

Hhhhmmmm, just coming to check out the meditation board ... seems like all is well:rolleyes:

You got to love this bullitin board!

[QuaiJohnCain]

Oh puke. Just drop the thread already.

One final note- if you think meditation is supposed to keep you from ever getting angry, sad, worried, etc. YOU DON'T GET IT. Hammer had his own reasons for flaming dwid, and so did I. I don't get that mad in traffic, but when I see someone B.S.ing someone else about the IMA/Qigong, I get livid. Having a love for something tends to make you protective of it. Ask any parent.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
If one's meditation is producing the intended results, these issues would not surface..

Not flaming here, but that's a crock.

[Tak]

What, did you think qigong turns people into Mother-Theresa-in-a-kung-fu-suit?

Mmm, Mother Teresa in a KF suit would have been hot! Rowr (sexy cat noise ala Conan OBrien/Homer Simpson)

[dwid]

Wow, this thread has been completely and inadvertently hijacked.

I think TaiChiBob remarks are probably the most interesting angle on which to continue the derailment here.

Should meditation and qigong, if practiced correctly, lead people to being more relaxed/less hostile in their day to day lives and interactions?

I would argue for the affirmative here. Anything that becomes part of your routine that relieves stress and perhaps makes you more mindful of experience as it happens and more aware of your own contributions to conflict would, I think, naturally lead to being less abrasive. Meditation certainly fits this criteria. I would argue qigong (as I've experienced it) does as well.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We are no less than what we have chosen to be.. if you choose to be aggressive and hostile then no amount of meditation will help (except possibly to focus that aggression a little more intensly)..

It has been "my" experience that as one acquires higher levels of skill in the MA's they fear less.. the less one fears the more relaxed and confident they become.. aggression is a fear response..

I suppose QJC is correct.. if one's intention is to be agressive, then by all means meditation will only support that evolutionary blunder..

But, if one's intention is to refine the art of living, to expand awareness, to contribute to well-being of society at large.. then meditation can only help..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Can you explian "IT" to me please, so that I can "GET IT".:cool:

I think I had IT but then lost IT. I wasn't sure if I HAD IT at first so I read a bunch of books on Toaism and Buddhism and remember a story about the Buddha posture and what IT was and a monk being hit on the head for asking such a stupid question (the Buddha posture is what ever posture you're in silly) and I think I GOT IT then but aprantly not because I won't argue about IT.

Hhhhmmmmm.

As for Kuma (BK Ffrantzis), I've heard he is quite good AND big -- and this from the best fighter I know. Taiji Bob, have you ever played with him to call him low level? How do you judge someone's head space as well.

He's quite succesfull, no? He must be doing something right.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Please reread my posts, i have made no commentary whatsoever regarding the quality of another practitioner's art.. i may, at times, comment on the aggressive or counter-productive attitudes displayed by those posting on these forums (based on the evidence provided by their own writings).. but, if i don't have direct experience with someone it would be invalid for me to comment about their qualities.. Even the published documentation about someone is insufficient for passing judgment, as the writer may be prejudiced.. Now, if the subjects themselves publish works that conflict with my own understanding, i may question their assertions.. but, seldom if ever, comment on their quality as a practitioner..

As for being successful equating to being "right", those are seperate issues..

I come to these forums with the sincere intention of sharing insights and experiences, not promoting a particular agenda, not to pump up my own ego, not to judge others.. we have chosen a profoundly deep and interesting and powerful Art (Taji), toward that end, "my" purpose is to improve myself and, hopefully, help others..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Guess I miss read this: "Frantzis should be avoided at all costs, he is of a low order."

I read his famous book on taiji, hsing-I and ba gua, I thought it was pretty good.

But my master tells me he came to Chinatown, NYC several years ago and had quite an easy time throwing the sifus around.

He visited my master and after few rounds offered my master a draw: My master said, "No!"

He asked why.

My master said, "Reverse it."

Kuma was a young man of about 325lbs to 350lbs at the time. At his heaviest my master was 180lbs. He's now a solid 145lbs at 62 years old.

Anyway, my master said Kuma was pretty good -- and he doesn't say that often. He also says his Chinese is amazing, better than his.

I never met Mr. Frantzis but would like to one day. I respect what he has done, going off like a hippie to study abroad and find the real deal ... And I think it's rough fighting traffic for an hour into Chinatown.

The story ends with Kuma coming back up stairs after he left and thanking my teacher. He was able to push my master around the room, but only afterwards realised my master held his strikes at that half beat after riding the push out. He sounds likes an interesting guy.

[Repulsive Monkey]

is the bane of many respected Masters, and has a pretty sh1tty attitude to boot. He was famous getting his ass kicked by well respected Masters in mainland China by being disrespectful to them and then trying to worm his way back into their schools. Plus a lot of his personal information about who and how long he studied with certain masters is very dubious.
I've read his book too and yes it does sound good that because he has refused to put all the bad information in there too, so you are onlyt getting half the story with that book.
There is no doubt that he has some skills, and too be honest I think his Bagua is his strong point, but he has a crap attitude and so do some of his senior students in the UK too when I have studied with them.
I mean he praises Wang Shu-jin in his book but he fails to recount why he stopped studying with him,namely because of the famous crotch kicking incident out of the blue when Wang was teaching a class. Wang did a hammer fist to Frantzis's skull and knocked him out which if he hadn't of held back would of killed him. When he came to a couple of students told him to leave and not to come back again as he was no longer a student a Wang's anymore.
There are many other stories about him being disrespectful and ending up with his arse in a sling.
I recently got hold of Robert Smith's "Martial Musings" and its so obvious that he is refering to Frantzis in the section at the end where he recounts his experiences with "MR. X".
Frantzis and his reputation is a perrenial topic on here and a year or so ago there was a lot more recent information on him too.
Again he has some skill but even the picture of the front of his "famous" 3 internal arts book it rigged, due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms.
There are much better people around to study from than Frantzis.

[chen zhen]

Meditation: read "three pillars of zen" by Roshi Philip Kapleau. the best step-by-step book on zen meditation (and the reasons why one should do it at all..)

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Can you explian "IT" to me please, so that I can "GET IT".:cool:


Well, that's where things get difficult... It's like music. If you're tone-deaf, you won't get it. If you're out of tune, you can't know the difference between meditation and self-supressing mental masturbation and will be locked in the latter.

[Buddy]

Hmm,
Looks like I'm the only one to have studied with these guys. I learned some of Chia's stuff on his first US tour a long time ago. I was with Kumar (Gu Ma if your thinking of the Chinese) for many years. I think his neigong is more practical than Chia's especially for martial artists. I'm not with him any longer (prefer Luo Dexiu) but he was a pug in the day. He doesn't really do martial arts any more and most of his current crop of teachers don't understand his stuff. Most, there are a couple. If you are speaking about him negatively from personal experience, more power to you. If you are just parroting others opinions, thats bad form. And RM, quoting Rbt Smith? Come on. Smith likes the sound of his own voice. His examples of Gao bagua from his first book are the worst I've seen... mm maybe.
Buddy

[BAI HE]

Don't say that P word. Let's be nice to long necked and lineaged now, you mean old *****.

[BAI HE]

Repulsive wrote:

"Frantzis
is the bane of many respected Masters, and has a pretty sh1tty attitude to boot. He was famous getting his ass kicked by well respected Masters in mainland China by being disrespectful to them and then trying to worm his way back into their schools."

Lose to some of the best. Learn from some of the best.

"Plus a lot of his personal information about who and how long he studied with certain masters is very dubious."

It's better than RW Smith laying claim to what he had learned rather than time spent. Kumar at least has "It".

"I've read his book too and yes it does sound good that because he has refused to put all the bad information in there too, so you are onlyt getting half the story with that book."

Kumar has never denied he was a not so benevolent student.

"There is no doubt that he has some skills, and too be honest I think his Bagua is his strong point, but he has a crap attitude and so do some of his senior students in the UK too when I have studied with them."

He has serious skills. Don't know his UK students.

"I mean he praises Wang Shu-jin in his book but he fails to recount why he stopped studying with him,namely because of the famous crotch kicking incident out of the blue when Wang was teaching a class. Wang did a hammer fist to Frantzis's skull and knocked him out which if he hadn't of held back would of killed him. When he came to a couple of students told him to leave and not to come back again as he was no longer a student a Wang's anymore."

Maybe deep down he had to know the truth. Better than just alluding to it, no?

"There are many other stories about him being disrespectful and ending up with his arse in a sling."

He doesn't deny it.

"I recently got hold of Robert Smith's "Martial Musings" and its so obvious that he is refering to Frantzis in the section at the end where he recounts his experiences with "MR. X"."

Too funny, Smith is about as reliable as the weather report. Kumar has "It" and has proven "It". What does smith have?
I sweeping literary style and nose for the punchline. If he was as good with his hands as a pen? He'd be legendary.

"Frantzis and his reputation is a perrenial topic on here and a year or so ago there was a lot more recent information on him too.
Again he has some skill but even the picture of the front of his "famous" 3 internal arts book it rigged, due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms.
There are much better people around to study from than Frantzis"

But you wouldn't know. Despit Frantzis's rather portly demeanor, he has power.
"due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms." You can tell all that from a picture? You're good!

I don't much care for what I've heard about Kumar. I do know his Chi-Gung and Nei-Gung to be very good through experience. A few good and one case great Ma have commented to this effect.

Again, I'm not a big fan of Mr. Frantzis, but to parade a hack journalist CIA guy's opinion as your own isn't too objective.
Go see Kumar for yourself, talk to him and report back.
Go see Smith too. Some may consider Kumar a "has been", but I'd rather be that than a "never was" like perhaps Mr. Smith may be.

I like how Smith gets all indignant on the page, but never did anything about it. If he didn't like Mr. X, he certainly could have done more than ***** about it in a thirty dollar book 20 yrs. later? Right?;)

[BAI HE]

Repulsive wrote:

"Frantzis
is the bane of many respected Masters, and has a pretty sh1tty attitude to boot. He was famous getting his ass kicked by well respected Masters in mainland China by being disrespectful to them and then trying to worm his way back into their schools."

Lose to some of the best. Learn from some of the best.

"Plus a lot of his personal information about who and how long he studied with certain masters is very dubious."

It's better than RW Smith laying claim to what he had learned rather than time spent. Kumar at least has "It".

"I've read his book too and yes it does sound good that because he has refused to put all the bad information in there too, so you are onlyt getting half the story with that book."

Kumar has never denied he was a not so benevolent student.

"There is no doubt that he has some skills, and too be honest I think his Bagua is his strong point, but he has a crap attitude and so do some of his senior students in the UK too when I have studied with them."

He has serious skills. Don't know his UK students.

"I mean he praises Wang Shu-jin in his book but he fails to recount why he stopped studying with him,namely because of the famous crotch kicking incident out of the blue when Wang was teaching a class. Wang did a hammer fist to Frantzis's skull and knocked him out which if he hadn't of held back would of killed him. When he came to a couple of students told him to leave and not to come back again as he was no longer a student a Wang's anymore."

Maybe deep down he had to know the truth. Better than just alluding to it, no?

"There are many other stories about him being disrespectful and ending up with his arse in a sling."

He doesn't deny it.

"I recently got hold of Robert Smith's "Martial Musings" and its so obvious that he is refering to Frantzis in the section at the end where he recounts his experiences with "MR. X"."

Too funny, Smith is about as reliable as the weather report. Kumar has "It" and has proven "It". What does smith have?
I sweeping literary style and nose for the punchline. If he was as good with his hands as a pen? He'd be legendary.

"Frantzis and his reputation is a perrenial topic on here and a year or so ago there was a lot more recent information on him too.
Again he has some skill but even the picture of the front of his "famous" 3 internal arts book it rigged, due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms.
There are much better people around to study from than Frantzis"

But you wouldn't know. Despit Frantzis's rather portly demeanor, he has power.
"due to the musuclar give to maintain the lift in his opponents arms." You can tell all that from a picture? You're good!

I don't much care for what I've heard about Kumar. I do know his Chi-Gung and Nei-Gung to be very good through experience. A few good and one case great Ma have commented to this effect.

Again, I'm not a big fan of Mr. Frantzis, but to parade a hack journalist CIA guy's opinion as your own isn't too objective.
Go see Kumar for yourself, talk to him and report back.
Go see Smith too. Some may consider Kumar a "has been", but I'd rather be that than a "never was" like perhaps Mr. Smith may be.

I like how Smith gets all indignant on the page, but never did anything about it. If he didn't like Mr. X, he certainly could have done more than ***** about it in a thirty dollar book 20 yrs. later? Right?;)

[jgradisher]

I don't know anyone personally to get involved in slagging.

I have just recently begun learning Frantzis's Opening the Energy Gates set with a teacher and I find that I am enjoying it and there definitely seems to be something to it. If you have a decent teacher (and it is almost averred on the Energy Arts web site that not all of the certified teachers are good; at least there is a disclaimer about it...), they will cover easily more than twice or three times what is in the book.

The guy teaching this class almost always refers to combat applications when teaching the chi gung, too, which I like. Many experienced Tai Chi guys come to him from other schools to learn the chi gung, but around here, most of them think of Tai Chi as a New Age dance, and some of the talk about combat seems to upset some of them. Most people just want to meditate.

This teacher insists that before he teaches anyone bagua (or other internal arts) that they must have some chi gung/nei gung background (and he doesn't care from where). That's why I'm learning it now; he seems to be the only instructor in the area who talks about actually fighting, so why not?

I'm brand-spanking new to this whole martial arts thing, and it's what I do with the money I saved from quitting smoking.

For my old fogey-ness, I find that the philosophy of the water method appeals to me, and I am skeptical of the supposed long term damage that fire method/pranayama stuff can do, as claimed in some of Frantzis's books. Nevertheless, I think he's a good writer with a lot to say.

Don't know much about Mantak Chia to pronounce one way or the other.

[BAI HE]

Kudos to you for finding out for yourself.
Kumar's chi and nei-gung have brought me nothing
but good health, great flexibility and helped me to really
align my body. I am physiologically far more structured and "open" than when I started.

I was a walking bag of nagging injuries before. I may not like
a lot of Kumar's stuff , nor agree with many of his theories, but the Gung he teaches is a true jewel IMHO.

[greendragon]

Hammer, they are BOTH good ! ..and different from each other so read them both. Ignore those gay flamers, they are nobodies and have no qualification to judge those who have contributed something to the public domain. M Chia's best is inner smile and cycle breathing. Frantzis is good standing meditation to bring energy down dissolving blockages.

[BAI HE]

The approaches are different and certainly emphsaize different aspects (relative to focus and experience) of chi-gung, but you have to find what owrks for you. Personally? "Opening the Energy Gates of the Body" By Kumar is a great book and has benifitted my practice greatly.

I enjoy Chia's writings as well, he probes the Nuero / spiritual stuff more so than Kumar.

[pokomkno3]

I have taken one thing from each of them and put it into my practice ~ just one thing from both of their teachings