RECOMMENDATIONS for MANTIS videos?

[gilgamesh]

hi,

my school doesn't teach praying mantis, but i studied a little 7 star praying mantis in the past and would like to do some independent study until i can join a 7 star school in the future. i know i will not be able to do all the proper drills alone, but can anyone recommend any good (and inexpensive) videos and/or books that I can use for 7 star praying mantis?

i browsed jon funk's site. his videos seem thorough. i wouldn't be interested in going through the whole series, but possibly the first four. any comments on those?

thanks for your help! :D

gilgamesh

[Sifu Bok Se Teung]

Yes, his videos are good to learn from and he always makes himself available to help his distant learning students.

[bungda07]

Greeting Sifu Bok Se Teung,

Do you study the Praying Mantis system? If so, what style. Is Praying Mantis system part of curriculum there?
V/r

Steve M.

[Tainan Mantis]

I recommend my video.
Of all MA videos I have seen on kung fu, including mantis it is the only one that shows the traditional training method of fighting for two people.

This includes hand kicking and throwing drills.
The form taught is actually Eagle Claw, basic form I teach of nearly 30 movements.
It includes single person as well as two person form.
I teach it as first form because all moves can be found in Mantis, but traditional Mantis has little for beginners to study, IMHO, as far as forms are concerned.

I posted another thread which includes clips from the video.

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

Please include information on contacting you and price with shameless plug...

Thanks,

Steve Cottrell

[RSA]

You plug yourself quite any how. Nothing like being humble.

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect those who differ with me.

But I appreciate your willingness to come on line and offer the information you have gained at great expense and effort. You do so without reserve and have given a great deal to us all.

As for others who's opinion may differ, I judge and give weight to the opinions of others based upon how much they give to the community and share in positive terms and contribute to the body of knowledge. I hope you will do the same.

Tainan, thank you, Shifu Lee Kam Wing and Sifu Funk for sharing your training and techniques with all of us.

BTW, I understand from conversations that Sifu Carl Albright will soon have commercial videos of his own! I encourage him to do so and eagerly await his contribution to the body of knowledge by offering Shifu Chu Leung's approach to Tanglang. Perhaps the ground broken by you guys will mean that he will not have as much criticism when his videos come out. Perhaps he will not be spoken of as self promoting because you guys have already broken ground for him and taken the heat, in a manner of speaking.

I appreciate how you guys put their skills and opinions on the line for the rest of us to benefit. Many criticize all of you for your work and they are free to do so, but I appreciate you guys. And I hope that you continue to do so.

Sincerely,
Steve Cottrell

[RSA]

I am not criticizing (who am I to criticize) I just made an observation. People can do what ever they want. You brought up Lee Kam Wing and John Funk I don't ever see them on here promoting their own videos. I think it is wonderful to post and talk about what you have learned. But even he said it himself it is a shameless plug. And why are you being so sensitive about it? Who knows maybe I will by the video tape too. Just making an observation.

[BeiTangLang]

Nah, you won't buy a copy, "I am not repulsed by knowledge but I believe in my Sifu and I don't need to go anywhere else."-RSA, Mantis Quarterly thread.
You have everything you need in your own kwoon!
(Which also kinda makes me wonder why you waste your time in here reading other peoples thoughts & ideas in mantis)

Just making an observation.

[ursa major]

Hey gilgamesh good for you for checking into Mantis ! I have a few videos by Sifu Funk, good quality recording, great instruction, definitely worth the cost. He mixes a weapon set with a hand form on some of the tapes as well which is a bonus.

Tainan Mantis you are teasing us how about posting the cost and contact info for your tape ? I am very interested and may end up buying a copy.

thx,
UM.

[RSA]

I never said that I didn't like reading or seeing other types of praying mantis or kung fu in general. I said that I don't want to be taught by an outside source. But again that doesn't mean I don't like reading or seeing other typers of mantis. And yeah I might buy Tainan's video. (if he is generous enough to let me) I already have two of Lee Kam Wings videos. I find them very interesting. But I am not learning mantis from them. There is a difference between enjoying mantis but not wanting to learn from anyone else and there is nothing wrong with that. You guys really have to stop being so sensitive and you have to read things much more carefully and read everything don't pick and choose.

[mantis108]

I highly recommend it that anyone who are interesting in Mantis SHOULD own one of Tainan's video. In fact highly recommend can't really express my appreciation of what his effort and generocity is about.

I agreed hundred and twenty percent of his plug. Tainan presented it really really clear in his first video "Babu Lianhuan Quan", which is an eagle form not a mantis form yet the methods and the drills for understanding, practicing and applying are of mantis. He also has a "beta" version video on Meihualu (plum blossom path), which he told me is not ready for the public but he was generous enough to give a sneak preview (sorry man, I can't help but broke my silence). I must say if you have bought his first video, you will absolutely blown out of your mind with this one. I have never studied the Meihualu form. This video provides the form, the drills (both from the form and supplimentary drills), and the Quanpu. I am talking every move of the ENTIRE form. He also included, perhaps just for me, his Sihing's performance for comparison. This goes beyond being generous. This is being ultra meticulous. From a slow learner such as myself, I found it no problem whatsoever to learn the form. Those who know me or have worked with me know that I am not a fan of form. After viewing Tainan's videos, I gain yet another level of appreciation and respect for the mantis heritage that is handed down from the pass masters. Not only do I see the form as it is, but also see the reason why this particular form in some lineages replaced the Bengbu which is by many considered one of the 3 mother forms of PM. If you think this hard working and generous man is not humble just because he is confident of his material, which I have nothing but praises, you would miss out on a lot. Of course, it is free will and free choice to follow your own heart.

As I have said before, his effort is somewhat a reflection and continuation of his teacher Shrfu Shr Zhengzhong's greatness. Shrfu Shr also had material that are marvelous. Unfortunately, his stuff are now very hard to find.

I agreed whole heartedly with Sifu Cottrell that great works from great people of mantis community are greatly appreciated. We as mantis practitioners owe them a great debt. They need to be recognized and celebrated.

I post this not for a plug but for expressing my utmost gratitude towards a great friend, a kind brother, and a superb human being.

Sincerely,

Robert Hui (Mantis108)

PS, try PM Tainan or look up the thread about his video. I think I have a thread on my forum about it too. Anyway good luck in your search.

[BeiTangLang]

Since the topic is out there, any other folks presenting videos for the mantis community?

[gilgamesh]

hey all, found the post that mantis108 referred too. sifu kevin's video sounds very interesting...

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14547&highlight=tainan+video

so are all the drills and the form itself taken from the eagle claw system but have applications for the mantis practitioner, or is anything from the video from a mantis style, such as 8 step mantis?

thanks for all the replies; as more people reply about other videos released as well as their experiences with sifu kevin's video i will buy a video :p

[Ronin BaBu]

www.cmaod.org has great mantis videos.

[B.Tunks]

I think the whole 'shameless plug' line was clearly tongue in cheek in the first place. We are pretty much all friends in here by now. For example; did you guys know 108 gets a 50% cut from all Tainans video sales? Ha ha, not true (though I will certainly be approaching him for a review if my video ever comes out).
On a serious note, what I have seen of Tainans stuff its certainly worth it especially because its got a lot of two man stuff which is whats missing from most available productions.

[Brad]

How about Su Yu Chang's videos? I have one of his Baji videos which is set up very well, and he's supposed to very good at mantis(his speciallty).

[yu shan]

Thank you Mantis 108 for the generous words for my Gong Fu Uncle. He is a superb Teacher and a kind man. But will hit you if you do not block. :) Thanks also for the tease (Meiwualu), can`t wait!

Babu Lianhuan video is a very well done project. Sure it`s a basic form, but there is so much to this video. It is a nice form to teach beginners, the two-person form is good to "ease" folks into the Mantis stuff on down the line. The two-person material in this video alone is enough to want to add to your collection. There are alot of extra`s in this video, and in my book, underpriced. The music is rather interesting...found myself tapping my foot!

I enjoy the Su Yu Chang video`s, would like to see some of Shrfu Funk`s.

All in all, I think we are all friends.

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks my friends for the kind words.
There are links provided here as well as video clips elsewhere on the Mantis forum of me and this vid.
So I will just say the vid is 40US$
If you want to talk about it email me.

kevinbrazier@yahoo.com

RSA,
It is nice to hear that you are satisfied with what you have.
It is best to study with a single teacher for many years before studying with others.

One thing I noticed about the masters as well as my sifus that I feel are the best is that they spent many years studying with a small group of masters, or only one, but later spent a lot of time visiting other teachers to learn from them.

To this day my shrfu spends much of his free time seeking out masters of MA to deepen his knowledge and understanding.

If you see this tape I wouldn't expect you to use it as in aid, but it is good to know what other people do, especially in our chosen art of Mantis.

[Joe Mantis]

Hey ya'll,

about the TM's video:

Bought it
Loved it
Used it
Still love it
Still use it
Want more of it

Joe mantis

[mantis108]

I certainly will be a rich man by now if I get the 50% cut. LOL...

Seriously, it will be a great honor to recieved any material for review from you. It will be a great learning experience for me. I think being able to view your prespective, or other PM teachers' for that matter, is worth 100 times more than the 50% cut. Won't you think? Incidently, are you planning to have something out soon? If not, I encourage you to do so. It will be great news for the community. Anyway, I am at your service anytime.

Hi Yu Shan,

You are most welcome, my friend. He told me that the Meihwalu isn't a pirority project at this point. I felt that this is such a gem that should not be left on the shelf to collect dust. So I have to get more people such as yourself to sign on the waiting list for him to make this a pirority project (sorry Tainan, I know you are busy enough as is). BTW, nice write up on the Babu Lianhuan as well. Thanks for sharing.

Hi Joe Mantis,

Didn't realize you are such a poet. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS Tainan's video is IMHO under priced as Yu Shan put it.

[B.Tunks]

108,

Seriously, it will be a great honor to recieved any material for review from you. It will be a great learning experience for me.

Actually I would be to afraid to reveal my endless flaws.

I think being able to view your prespective, or other PM teachers' for that matter, is worth 100 times more than the 50% cut. Won't you think?

Yes I agree. It's a pleasure to watch other people and their understanding of Mantis Boxing to help complete the big picture. Each one of us only knows so much.

Incidently, are you planning to have something out soon? If not, I encourage you to do so.

Well I did start to make a video on fundamentals of Qixing Tanglang but after my teacher died I have had to reassess my whole martial path. I dont want to do a dis service by producing poor material so I will wait until I am ready. I am still a kid and have along way to go. If I do go ahead i will keep it to the basics which is just about all I can handle. I cant wait too long however, as I will end up too fat and lazy to be on camera, ha ha...
thanks for the encouragement.

The big question is, when will you release something on the great Taiji Tanglang system???

[mantis108]

Sorry to get back to this thread late.

I think you are too humble for your skill. :) I am sure a lot of people are looking forward for Mainland 7 Star material. I absolutely admire your take on the basics. Understanding the basics only add to the appreciation of a mantis system IMHO. Mantis is especially design like that at least in those that I came across. Each level of material reinforces the next. I just hope to have a sneak preview of your work. ;)

As for CCK TCPM material, Jack Wong in Vancouver has been working on a wooden dummy VCD intended as a companion of the book. I think it should be ready for the market soon. Like you I am filming some basics but it is mainly for my students to help them through.

Warm regards

Robert

[cha kuen]

Has anyone seen Sifu Paul Eng's DVD on mantis? I believe its on "Steals the Peach." Any reviews ?

[R]

Personally I also would recommend the video by Tainan Mantis.

If you want to see the Northern Mantis of Al Cheng I think you are better off looking for his tapes that were made while Jon Funk was Al Chengs student. I think the sifu is a better teacher than the student in this case.

Hey what do I know being a southern stylist :D .

Cheers, R

[mantisben]

Originally posted by R
Personally I also would recommend the video by Tainan Mantis.

If you want to see the Northern Mantis of Al Cheng...
The Al Cheng Videos are very hard to find. I was looking for the "Mui Fa Loc" video for years.

I've got much respect for Jon Funk and Al Cheng.

I have more respect for the Martial Artist that has a little knowledge and shares ALOT, than for the Martial Artist who has ALOT of knowlege but shares a little.

Jon Funk has shared alot of his knowledge of PM with the martial arts community, not just the PM community. He as put himself out there and has been criticized, riddiculed, challenged on his authenticity/authorization, etc.. But just for sharing, he has my respect.

Bruce Lee was another Martial Artist that had an overwhelming desire to share. Very few people in the "Western World" knew what Martial Arts were until Bruce Lee hit the scene. So what if there were MA who were better than him. Those snobs weren't sharing ANYTHING outside their own circles, and even keeping secrets from each other within THOSE circles. Bruce Lee chose to spread the good word about Martial Arts.

Much respect to Bruce Lee and Jon Funk.

Tainan Mantis, Mr. Cottrell, Mr. Tunks:

When your videos are ready - if this forum doesn't have any rules against it - PLUG IT WITHOUT SHAME! Take an ad out in a Kung-Fu magazine, a Karate magazine, a "Better Housekeeping" magazine, etc.. Get the good word out about PM. I, for one, am looking forward to ALL of it.

[MantisifuFW]

Greetings,

Here is the site for Al Cheng's hard to come by videos. They are a great resource for Sifu Funk's disciples too. You can see the evolution of the art.

http://www.secretsoftheorient.com/secretsoftheorient/Praying%20Mantis.htm

Enjoy,

Steve Cottrell

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by mantisben

I have more respect for the Martial Artist that has a little knowledge and shares ALOT, than for the Martial Artist who has ALOT of knowlege but shares a little.


I want to make some comments regarding this statement. While I do not presume to tell you who you should respect, I would like to express my feelings about this notion of sharing that you hold in such high regard.

This difference of opinion on sharing is I feel largely a cultural issue. Being born and raised in America, I understand the idea that sharing knowledge and information freely is a respectable and noble pursuit. That to present oneself to the scrutiny of the public is a difficult and brave task. However, I also grew up steeped in my Chinese culture and heritage. While keeping secrets and witholding information is not inherent in all Chinese people, it was very common throughout Chinese martial arts history. Martial knowledge was kept secret within temple walls or amongst family members. For many, this is part of the tradition that has been transmitted to us.

There are many who have a lot of knowledge but do not wish to openly share it. They have spent their entire lifetime in the pursuit of that knowledge. It is very reasonable that they would treasure that knowledge that most likely was not easy to acquire. They reserve that information for those that they know and trust. They reserve the right to decide who they choose to pass that information on to instead of blindly making it available to some unscrupulous people only interested in commercial and financial gain.

There are some that have only a little knowledge. They may not have the means or resources to gain any more knowledge directly. So instead, they offer what knowledge they have in the hopes of trading it for other knowledge and in this way can learn from others who otherwise might not have shared their knowledge. While this is a perfectly reasonable approach to
gaining knowledge, I do not feel it necessarily warrants more respect.

As a martial artist, I give most respect to those that have true knowledge and can effectively transmit that knowledge to the next generation. It should be the pursuit of each martial artist to seek out the best teacher one can find. If I were to find a teacher but he is not willing to teach me, then I would wonder what is it about me that this person finds fault with. I would not assume that the fault is with him.

I too respect those who willingly allow themselves to be criticized by the public. But I do not necessarily give them more respect just for having done so. Maybe I am old fashioned. Maybe I am too traditional. But I still believe in the bond between sifu and disciple and the level of trust and responsibility that comes with it.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by Young Mantis

Maybe I am old fashioned. Maybe I am too traditional. But I still believe in the bond between sifu and disciple and the level of trust and responsibility that comes with it.

YM

Yes, agree!
Nowadays the relation between disciple and Sifu becames more and more careless!
If one disciple lose his patience about learning he will turn his back on his Sifu searching for the next one!
And more and more disciples are willing to teach themselves! By getting DVDs, VCDs and a lot of stuff from the Internet.
Its more like in a warehouse ... one Year seminars with Sifu XY, next year with Sifu YZ...

But will they ever get the true meaning of martial Arts? I believe not.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
There are many who have a lot of knowledge but do not wish to openly share it. They have spent their entire lifetime in the pursuit of that knowledge. It is very reasonable that they would treasure that knowledge that most likely was not easy to acquire. They reserve that information for those that they know and trust. They reserve the right to decide who they choose to pass that information on to instead of blindly making it available to some unscrupulous people only interested in commercial and financial gain.

I agree.


There are some that have only a little knowledge. They may not have the means or resources to gain any more knowledge directly. So instead, they offer what knowledge they have in the hopes of trading it for other knowledge and in this way can learn from others who otherwise might not have shared their knowledge.
This doesn't sound like sharing, it sound like bartering or trading.


If I were to find a teacher but he is not willing to teach me, then I would wonder what is it about me that this person finds fault with. I would not assume that the fault is with him.
I would assume the fault was with the teacher. Possibly another cultural difference.


...But I still believe in the bond between sifu and disciple and the level of trust and responsibility that comes with it.

So do I.

As for the "secrets" kept, I think this is how alot of styles, techniques, forms, and training methods get lost. Either the "holder" of this information dies before he gets to pass on some very good experience about their style, they may get forgetful, or they decide when their 80 or 90 years old, that they want to pass on all that they know to a worthy student(s), but are running out of lifetime to pass on everything they know. Things get lost, and now their most worthy student(s) are left to figure these things out for themselves, which probably isn't a bad thing. Still, I believe it would be better for the style (any style) if the worthy student(s) could pickup where the Master left off. This, I believe, is how a style evolves.

It's kind of like the invention of the car. Someone picked up where the inventor of the car left off, and invented the truck. Then the bus. Now, they modified the engine in that car, gave it wings, and put it in an airplane. From VCR to DVD. From Local Area Networks to the Internet. From Regular Unleaded Gas to Rocket-Fuel. Arithmetic to Algebra. The l ist goes on. Knowledge was shared, and it evolved into something more than it was previously (usually, not always).

My thoughts on the evolution of knowledge may not apply to Martial Arts though.

I don't advocate ANY Martial Arts teacher to teach Martial Arts to just anybody. LEAST OF ALL, a potential student THEY see UNWORTHY.

Knowlege is a treasure. It should be shared wisely, and reverently respected.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
Greetings,

Here is the site for Al Cheng's hard to come by videos. They are a great resource for Sifu Funk's disciples too. You can see the evolution of the art.

http://www.secretsoftheorient.com/secretsoftheorient/Praying%20Mantis.htm

Enjoy,

Steve Cottrell

Thanks for the link!!!

[MantisifuFW]

Like YM I also believe that teachers who remain true to their art and teach a small group of students privately deserve just as much respect as those who do venture into the public arena of ideas. However, the fact is that those in the public eye will garner greater numbers of both endorsers and detractors and the perceived level of both side's opinions will be magnified simply by the greater numbers expressing themselves.

Also though, being a traditional teacher with the responsible and rewarding relationship between a Sifu and his students does not exclude one from sharing information publicaly. Neither is one who shares information publicaly excluded from being a traditional teacher with loyal students. I know of teachers who are in the public eye and publish material and tapes who will refuse to personally teach individuals perceived to be untrustworthy.

A traditionalist is not one path or one way of acting. There are degrees of closed or openness in traditional schools. Each teacher finds the mixture of both that composes his path. Sometimes a teacher may enter the public arena, decide it is not what they really want and return to more closed approaches to teaching.

Steve Cottrell

[-N-]

Originally posted by Young Mantis

This difference of opinion on sharing is I feel largely a cultural issue. Being born and raised in America, I understand the idea that sharing knowledge and information freely is a respectable and noble pursuit.
Another cultural aspect relates to the value that Chinese place on humility. Openly providing knowledge can be seen as unjustifiable self promotion, and a lack of humility, or even a sign of disrespect.

Humility is one of the strongest values that is instilled in a Chinese child, starting from even before he can even walk or talk. I'm sure that Young Mantis and others who grew up in a Chinese family have lost track of the number of times someone has paid them a compliment, and their parents immediately responded with a denial, and followed up with some negative comment.

Examples:

"Your son works so hard."
"No, not at all. He's lazy! He only knows how to eat and play!"

or

"Ah, such a smart young man."
"Him?? He's dense. He has no brain. He doesn't study hard enough. He doesn't know anything!"

or

"Such a good son."
"No. He's very disobedient. He's useless!"

This goes on all day long, every day.

Contrast this with the American view of promoting high self esteem among children. Everything the child does is automatically wonderful. If the child receives a low mark at school, parents complain to the teacher and sue the school. Latest research in self esteem finds that promoting high self esteem as opposed to realistic self esteem is a detriment to children. An interesting finding was that America's prisons are filled with people who rate among the highest in self esteem. Apparently these people never learned to question themselves or take responsibility for their own actions.

It seems that the Chinese cultural view is that if one stays humble, one can continue to learn and improve oneself. The first obstacle to overcome is one's ego. You have to cut down your ego before you have a chance at cutting down your opponent or your challenges.

People become suspicious if they get an impression that a person is lacking in humility. They think that they are dealing with a know-it-all, and that he must be lazy, and that he must be trying to make personal gain at another's expense, and on and on. In a way, distrust is a cultural legacy. Especially distrust of outsiders or things that are different, culturally or otherwise. Look at all the negative things that befell China when foreigners showed up.

Western culture is more extroverted, asks questions more, and exchanges information more readily. Sometimes to the frustration of a traditional teacher who is probably thinking, "too much talking, not enough practicing" or else, "he doesn't even understand the simplest thing, and he wants to talk about that??" Initiating a question when the teacher hasn't solicited any can be viewed as being presumptious too.

As Young Mantis wrote, some teachers can be very selective about who they teach. Some reasons include, not wanting to waste time on a person who may not be dedicated, or not wanting to benefit a person who may have low moral character. Chinese are very big on self improvement through hard suffering... go figure :)

N.

[German Bai Lung]

I think, with other words, Lao Zi mentioned that in the DaDeJing:

24.

Standing on tiptoe, you are unsteady.

Straddle-legged, you cannot go.

If you show yourself, you will not be seen.

If you affirm yourself, you will not shine.

If you boast, you will have no merit.

If you promote yourself, you will have no success.


Those who abide in the Tao call these
Leftover food and wasted action
And all things dislike them.

Therefore the person of the Tao does not act like this.


My disciples got to interpret that one the last weeks. Very interesting results!

[-N-]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
My disciples got to interpret that one the last weeks. Very interesting results!
Good lessons that you are teaching your students.

N.