Another challenge

[Tainan Mantis]

This question could go on the main board, but I know everyone here so well so i want to keep it in the family.

This has to do with the age old ritual called "ti guan."
That is when someone comes to the school to cross hands.

This actually happens to me several times a year, and usually I accept.
I just don't mention it here since I think it will make me look like a wacko.

Most always it is in friendly terms, and there is no anger or ego.
Sometimes it is hard contact and sometimes it isn't.
I win some and lose some.

The reason I mention this challenge is because I didn't accept and I wonder about what criteria exist for accepting challenges.

This guy comes off as a brawler who likes to pick fights and beat people up.
he bragged how he was a factory manager in Bangledesh and would fight the workers if they didn't work hard enough.
So we are not talking about a model of Confucian virtue here.

So I am in the middle of teaching a young girl MA on campus debating if I should fight.

Of course I will learn from this battle, but it is going to be an ugly fight.
I can tell that it will go down to the wire.
This is a guy who is inherently angry and needs some sort of release.

So now I have to work myself up to go and destroy this person just because he has a problem.

So I ask myself, why should I take part in this guys dementia when I don't have to?

Feel free to put in your 2 cents.

BTW, the last guy I fought, just before I came to the US last month was very polite.
No ego, just wants to try fighting with someone who can fight.
It is funny how when two people are like this there is no(almost) anger in hitting or getting hit very hard or painfully.

[Oso]

Tainan, imho, I wouldn't bother with him.

In a friendly match, whether low contact or high contact, the end goal is knowledge and learning, just as you have said.

This guy doesn't sound like his goal is either of those. He is only seeking to enlarge his ego by beating a known martial figure. You would gain nothing by beating him or losing to him.

If, however, he continues to press the issue to the point of attacking you...fug his azz up good.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

This has to do with the age old ritual called "ti guan."

This guy comes off as a brawler who likes to pick fights and beat people up.
he bragged how he was a factory manager in Bangledesh and would fight the workers if they didn't work hard enough.


First, I don't think this is a "ti guan", when you said "ti guan", I think someone is trying to beat up a teacher to close down a school. Someone who is an established teacher who is beating a new teacher up to eliminate the competition or a new teacher coming in to a new area and need to beat up an establish teacher to establish his credibility as a fighter. There's an intent to hurt the teacher and the school. Well, may be this guy falls in the second category of a new guy in town and looking to make a name for himself.

The guy as you described seem to be a guy that's just looking for a fight in a situation which he won't be arrested for assualt & battery. I mean if he used to fight against his factory worker (if that's true), what is the worker supposed to do? Beat him and lose the facotory job or take a beating a keep the factory job (Bangledesh has a high unemployment rate,so a job is very important). Is the worker going to report on him and get fired?

BTW, did this happen in Taiwan?

I don't think you should accept the challenge, but if you do, be careful. He probably does silat and probably intent to do you harm (especially if he keep pestering you).

Not to say you can't take him but don't take this guy lightly.

wm

[mantis108]

This reminded me of one time when GM Chiu got challenged. He didn't want to fight the guy. When the guy come, GM Chiu said I needed to warm up and he took a stone lock and started flinging it (doing all the nice moves including the elbow thing.) The guy saw this and declined to fight. So the moral of this is that there are ways to "persuade" people not to fight you. It is also a fair warning to the guy because he "knew" what he is in for. ;)

Personally, avoid fighting him. If the fight has some meaningful purpose for both parties (ie saving lives), it is all worth it even if you lose terribly. If it is about you may get some experience and even better your fighting ability, then you may be falling for the same ego trip trap that he is going through. It is a lose lose situation. There is a difference between a teacher and a fighter. A teacher learns when to and when not to fight. A fighter fights regardless for his identity. Unless you have a serious identity crisis. I don't see the point in fighting this fight. I believe Kung Fu is for becoming a better person through reasoning not the other way arround. It is think first before acting not fight first and then reason.

Anyway, I agreed with WM's observation and advice. If negociation or persuasion wouldn't work and you have to fight him, take him out with all the might that you've got. No if or and or buts. Make sure, before hand, that he understands it will be pure destruction. It is either you or him standing.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

PS It would be a good idea also to sought advice from Shrfu Shr before you decided to take on this particular challenge. That way you pretty much covered all bases.

[Albino_Mantis]

Just dropping in my $.02 worth.

You have no way of knowing if this person will press charges after the fight is done (if he loses).

Remember, your in a country where fighting is pretty much illegal and in most states they are harder on Martial Artists then regular brawlers (some states require you register yourself as a lethal weapon).

My recommendation would be to just report this guy to the authorities if he comes around again. Let the police deal with this him. (besides, does he think he's in a Bruce Lee or Shaw Brothers movie?)

[SaMantis]

Albino Mantis,

You're talking about US states, right?

Tainan Mantis lives in Taiwan. Also from what I've heard of him, he can handle himself pretty well in a fight.

[WanderingMonk]

Taiwan has rules too. It is illegal to engage in private fights. The rules might have relax in the past two decades after lifting of martial laws, but the general principles still applies.

Of course, if the fight is between gentlemen and after the fight, no one say anything, no authority will bother. But, I question whether this guy is a gentleman. A fight with him will not prove anything. If it goes badly for him, he might come back at Tainan with a lawsuit.

Tainan,

You probably should discuss this situation with your sifu like Mantis108 suggested.

wm

[buddhapalm]

I like the arm conditioning idea. A so called Sifu challenged me to this once saying he would "inspire" me to get back into training. One smash of shocking ging into his forearm made him look like a babbling fool in insane agony. I hope he learned some humility next time.

I am sure your forearms are metalized. Sounds like a good way to deal with him if you must.

If not then an internal palm strike to the sternum to make him drop with no bruises, no lawsuits or arguments. Ruthlesness echoed back without thought. It was not you that provoked him, it was his ego that interupted your palm strike. You are just the messenger of justice, the person that is not sweating in a Bangladesh slave den fearing his brutality.

People like that are wolves. Once they smell the scent of fear they try to corner their prey. Even though it is not fear at all on your part, but mercy, and the wish not to crush them to a trembling pulp, they dont know it. They only respect pain.

Now i'm sounding like a whacko :-)))

It is your choice my good friend. I hope you no longer have to deal with this person. But if you must, then I hope you leave no bruises.

Warmest Regards Always

Buddhapalm

[18elders]

I think we would all like to see you kick the crap out of the guy but if the guy is a nut case it probably wouldn't be a friendly challenge.
I also like the idea of a few tests of conditioning or something first.
I don't think he should issue a challenge while you are teaching a young student.
Let us know what happens!

[Albino_Mantis]

Originally posted by SaMantis
Albino Mantis,

You're talking about US states, right?

Tainan Mantis lives in Taiwan. Also from what I've heard of him, he can handle himself pretty well in a fight.

SaMantis,

I missed that bit earlier. Sorry for the confusion. :(

I do still stand by my thoughts that the challenge shouldn't be taken up. I don't see where accepting a challenge in this day and age will accomplish anything.

A match between two people seeking to hone their skill, with no ego attached to the outcome, is a different thing. But a stranger challenging you, with an agenda you don't know, even if you are an awesome fighter, leaves you open to potential trouble. Why risk it.

Well, that's my opinion, fighting for ego isn't worth, it'll just set you up to get hurt in the long run.

[bung bo]

this guy sounds like a dipsh*t. plain and simple. he brags about beating up his employees. he is not a gentlman. he is just trying to feed his ego. i wouldn't take him lightly, he might be serious. i like the arm pounding and stone lock ideas. but if this guy just keeps on and keeps on pestering you to fight, kick his a$$.

i think it would be a good idea to talk with GM Shr.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
So I ask myself, why should I take part in this guys dementia when I don't have to?

Feel free to put in your 2 cents.

This may be more like $.01 cents...

Just say you only fight in defense of yourself. You have no interest in hostile Martial Arts confrontations. Tell him to go to find someone else to test HIS fighting skill on, and that there are plenty of other people to satisfy HIS cravings for combat. Tell him your flattered he would choose you, but that he has issues. TELL HIM THIS FROM STRIKING DISTANCE. Even if you don't strike him at this time, talk to him this from striking distance.

Some bullies will pop $h1t after this and let you be, and some will press on. If he falls into the latter category, and a fight seems inevitable, if you think you're ready, strike first (it may be the only chance you get) and try to BEAT THE POPE OUT OF HIM.

Fighting with hostility Sux like a vacuum!

It is no longer one of those friendly combat exchanges (there IS such a thing). It is a street fight, whether it happens in your school, or at a Bus Stop.

I had a guy tell me that he could easily beat me up one time (I think he could have too). I didn't know the guy, and it wasn't friendly. He was dead serious. I told him that even if he beat me up at this time, that it wouldn't be over. I told him if he hit me, he'd have to watch his back, because I wouldn't care if he was walking with his mother, his brothers, or at a shopping mall, I would get him back if I had to run his a$$ over (I was pretty pi$$ed off). He apologized to me and walked away.

I haven't seen the guy since.

He was only looking for someone to beat up for the night, and thought everything would be over and done with after that. When he saw the (shall I say) dimensions of taking advantage of me, he reconsidered...

Anyway, I didn't get hurt by him, and he didn't get hurt by me.

You can't do that in every situation...

On another occasion, I just admitted defeat to a guy that I KNOW wouldn't have defeated me in a fight, and he let me be. Some people's pride won't let them do something like this. Maybe I don't have any pride. Still, I didn't get hurt by him, and he didn't get hurt by me.

But I digress...

On a final note, if you think you don't stand a chance of defeating this person, try to psychologically steer the confrontation into an intense, possibly painful, but non-hostile clash of Martial Skill. One more corny example... I'll try to make it short...

I'm walking home from the store. I get stopped by one of the neighborhood rough-necks, out of prison about 3 weeks, who challenges me to a fight in front on his cronies. It started out serious. We square off long enough for ME to realize I'm gonna get my a$$ kicked, and HIM to realize it isn't gonna be a walk in the park. He stops, a bit winded, and says "you're not ready for this, kid". I say "I'm not". He said "you'll just get hurt". I said "most likely". He gets pats on the back from his posse, I pick up my groceries and go home.

Anyway, I didn't get hurt by him (except my pride a bit, in this incident), and he didn't get hurt by me.

You can't do that in every situation...

If you think a confrontation is inevitable with this bully, train hard while you have the time. Train to give a beating, and train to take a beating...

I'm on your side Tainan Mantis! My prayers are with you! No matter what you decide, no matter the outcome!

[SaMantis]

Albino Mantis,

it's cool -- in fact I agree with you, ego is not a reason to fight.

And IMO if TM doesn't have to fight him, he shouldn't -- doesn't matter whether he gets beaten down or not, he'll still be the same idiot ******* who dropped a challenge in the first place. He'll go back to Bangladesh bragging that he won, even if he didn't.

So if TM doesn't care what the guy tells other people about the fight (or non-fight), then it doesn't matter. So don't fight. Let him blow his own horn until he's spent and goes away.

[Tainan Mantis]

Before I posted this thread I debated with myself...
"Should I put a personal problem on a place like this?"

I am very happy I did because the variety of answers has helped me crystalize my thoughts.

It seems that for the most part there are 2 types of people who want to cross hands with me.

The good kind, or kind I like seeks to;
test skill in private.
No need for crowds to watch.
No desire to find a winner.

Which made me realize that I feel happy when my opponent finds a way to apply his technique on me successfully. When the skill outsmarts me.

This seems like a love of the art form. To see the beuty of skill regardless of can do it to who.
As a rule, it seems that he will feel the same way, or at least respect the ability of technique.

In a contest to determine the winner(where the crowd may be) we feel that a new bond was created between us after the fight and the handshake becomes very emotional.

I am happy to say most people are like this.

The bad kind;
likes to make a spectacle of himself in public.

When confronted with seperior skill or technique feels that somehow it makes him less of a man.

Makes himself feel better at the expense of makeing someone else feel worse.
Thus enjoys inciting fear in others.

So, the final conclusion, if this idiot ever presses for a fight, I will accept, but in private with only skilled MArtists as witness.
In fact this is how it usually is, with my partner or elder watching to coach me on my good and bad points afterwards.

As my Shrhsiung said," He won't be intersted in the comparison of skills, just the chance to brag about that which never happened."

Deepest thanks to all who wrote in both public and private.

[Tainan Mantis]

Shortly after the wierdo showerd up I mentioned it to my shrfu.
His immediate gut response was," Great! Go fight him."
But then when I explained that this fellow wasn't a real MA and just someone who thrills in beating up others shrfu's atitude was different.
After all the expletives he explained the philosophy that MA only test skills with MA, people who have devoted themselves to the art.
In the case of this guy I only need say that my kung fu is for self defense only...
Then, as my shrfu continued, if he gets funny I can feel free to defend myself by beating him up.

The End.

An old MA injury has caused me a tumor in my middle ear.
Today I have to enter the hospital and stay for a week as they open the back of my head and remove it.

When I return from the hospital I will let everyone know.

[B.Tunks]

Thats bad news mate. I know you will get through this though.
Good luck with your recovery and best of wishes to your family and Shifu who will be very worried for you.
Yours,
Brendan

We all want him back soon right?

[yu shan]

You will be in my thoughts and prayers.

[shaolinarab]

best of luck tainan,

from what i know, most middle ear tumors are benign, so i anticipate that you will have a fortunate outcome. keep us posted!

[German Bai Lung]

Tainan,

I keep my fingers crossed for you!

See you back soon here on the board!

[Meat Shake]

Sorry to here that my friend. You have my best wishes.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Good Luck. We're rootin' for ya.

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

You will be in our prayers. I look forward to your safe and healthy return.

Sincerely,

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

Kevin,

Our (Andreas, Allan and I ) thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. We look forward for your speedy recovery and healthy return. Take care my dear friend.

Warmest regards

Robert

[buddhapalm]

Hi Kevin,
Please recover quickly and stay positive.

Your Friend

David

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
An old MA injury has caused me a tumor in my middle ear.
Today I have to enter the hospital and stay for a week as they open the back of my head and remove it.

When I return from the hospital I will let everyone know.

You have my Prayers! You WILL recover, and be just fine.

[Oso]

Godspeed to a quick recovery !!!

[Joe Mantis]

Kevin,

You got our prayers here as well.
Keep the Faith.

D.

[SaMantis]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery, TM.

[Ren Blade]

Same here. I wish you a speedy recovery.

And good luck with the fight if it happens. I really want you to you win. Guys like that guy really need a beating.

[bung bo]

i hope everything goes alright and you can recover quickly.

dustin

[Young Mantis]

Kevin,

Best wishes to a speedy and healthy recovery.

Vance

[Life long Student]

Hi Kevin
Good luck with your operation. I am not religious but believe in energy so I will be sending you some get well vibes. :) (No I am not a Hippy) (actually I am a Republican, Ha ha). Hopefully all will go well. I hope this doesn't affect your balance, but I guess you could always do Drunken Mantis realy good if it does. :)

[18elders]

Hope all goes well with your operation and your back on your feet fast.

[WanderingMonk]

Kevin,

Good luck and take care.

wm

[Josh C.]

I went to see Kevin in the hospital today. I conveyed all of your good wishes and he was touched. He is recovering and is in good spirits. The surgery took 7 hours so it was more intense than anticipated. He should be home soon and is looking forward to getting back to training. I am sure he will feel honored to know he has so much support from you all.
Regards,
Josh

[Oso]

Thank You, Josh.

[tanglang]

Saw it only now because I had not so much time the last weeks... That sounds bad- a tumor-operation. Hey, and I'm really glad to hear that you feel allready better. Hope you'll recover as fast as possible, and be carefull with training in the next time... and thx ,Josh, for letting us know.
best wishes and warm regards
Silke

[mantis108]

Thank you very much for the update and thank God, Da Man is okay! :D

I am glad that you gave him the messages. Thanks.

BTW, please tell him that he better get well soon and get back to training or he's going to miss the super duper secret move that I am going to show him. LOL... just kidding, the man know way more than I do.

Seriously, lots of things to catch up on.

Warmest regards to him and you

Robert

[yu shan]

Great news indeed! A sigh of relief...

[bung bo]

what a relief. very good to hear kevin is recovering well. thanks for conveying the messages josh.

[Tainan Mantis]

One week later and I am out.
For the medical students here, the tumor was stuck to the ear bone(literal translation), and the doctor spent a lot of time scraping it off so that is why I was out for so long.

When I came to, totally unlike waking up from sleep, my first natural instinct was to get up and fight.
I don't know if that was a good thing or just too many cheesy MA flicks have polluted my brain.
Don't worry the nurses were safe as they had my strapped to the table like Frankenstein.
Any way, the case of vertigo was so bad I couldn't tell which way to move to lift my head off of the pillow and when I was finally helped to the bathroom I promptly heaved the remnants of my last meal.

Bad news: Not only can I not train until the wound is healed, but I can't even sweat.

Thanks all for the touching words.

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

Excellent that things have gone so well!

But sorry that you cannot train...

however...

So long as you cannot, you most certainly should keep the old kung fu grey matter at work. Hey, I just had an excellent idea. You should write another surperb article for the Mantis Quarterly!

Glad I thought of it.

Seriously, take care of yourself and rest. Get well soon.

Sincerely,

Steve Cottrell

[yu shan]

A fantastic sight, seeing that you had posted. Very happy to see your wit again. Rest and get better!

[Life long Student]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO

Glad you are ok.

[18elders]

Glad to see you back, not even an operation can keep him away!
Hope you recover quickly.
Did it damage your hearing at all?
Take care and take it easy for a while.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

...
Bad news: Not only can I not train until the wound is healed, but I can't even sweat.

Thanks all for the touching words.
Relax and focus on your recovery. Forget Kung-Fu for a while ( I doubt you can TOTALLY forget Kung-Fu).

It warmed my heart to see that you are posting!

Still in my Prayers,

Herminio Alvarez, Jr.

[Tainan Mantis]

18elders,
I am almost completely deaf in the ear now.
It sounds like there are two police cars and an ambulance behind me.
Hopefully it will heal.
The doctor said my hearing would improve.
If not I'll just turn the amp up louder.

mantisben,
It is not possible to forget MA.
Living in Taiwan the only limit I have to how much I practice is how sore I am.
Now when I go to kung fu class all I can do is tell the students to "entertain me!"

But I have been using this time tie tie some loose ends of my research together in the similarities of various ancient manuscripts.

[Oso]

glad to hear all is well.

[Michael Dasargo]

Im a bit late on this...havent read everyones response, but here's my opinion:

Ti Guan, as I understand it, means "to kick the school". Destroying the reputation of the teacher or the school itself. Although it seems he is not from a nearby school, he is still there to challenge you.

Challenges are nonsense. Challenges are illusions. Challenges are in rarely a gauge for skill level, although it may provide a few people with an idea of where you are at.

I've personally recieved many. And in this sue happy country, I have to play it very carefully with who Im dealing with. Ultimately, the individual is there to threaten your lively hood.

I dont have time for childs play.

If an individual has the false sense of security that play fight victories securies the individuals saftey in the streets, may God be by his/her side.

You have to first ask yourself, "Am I ready to be severly incapacitated or even killed?". Next you should decide what you are willing to do to prevent yourself from being incapacitated or killed.

If you've come to the conclusion that you're willing to do what it takes to protect your quality of life, then ask any challenger straight up: "Are you threatening me?".

That question alone often shakes up the nonsense trapped in a challengers mind. This whole "I challenge you Kwai Chang Kang...and we're both going to walk away and talk about it" nonsense.

There's only one benefit to non-cooperative sparring: the experience of being put in a life or death situation. For most, its not worth it, and they'll explain what they mean by "challenge".

Blow most people off as a joke who have absolutley no concept of what it is to be in a life or death situation, as it has been in the martial artist of old.

And if you do find that one challenger who is ready to kill...either put him down, or call the police. It's clear that he is the aggressor. You have every right to defend yourself.

Just dont drown in the lake of illusions.

M

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Michael Dasargo
... And in this sue happy country, I have to play it very carefully with who Im dealing with. Ultimately, the individual is there to threaten your lively hood.


Interesting comments Mr. Dasargo.

In fact the legal implications were the first thought that entered my mind when I read Tainan Mantis' opening post -- 'better check with your insurance company first...'.

Some time ago I spoke with a representative of my insurance company (I have a personal and club liability policy) who expressed in clear and in no uncertain terms that my policy would not be enforceable against claims of this nature (challenges, open fighting). I think their term was "...the willful pursuit of personal combat..." or some such. Bottom line if you get a claim as a result of engaging in activity such as this then they (the Insurance Company) never heard of you and you are completely on your own.

So if the other guy goes down, maybe he can't work for awhile, maybe he has a permanent injury, maybe he's just p*ssed at losing, and decides to get a lawyer it turns out he can go after my house, car, savings, future wages no less, etc, etc... And if he wins in court I'll have to pay for his legal fees, medical fees, wages and out of pocket as well as any court ruled financial awards.

I've also checked into my personal long term disability insurance which, it turns out (no surprise), also has a waiver against what they categorize as 'claims the result of misadventure' and once again I have no coverage the insurance company never heard of me.

If you are a monk on a mountain then none of this matters much does it ?

But if you have spent a lifetime building a business, a career, equity in savings, college funds for the kids, you-name-it... then maybe you ought to think twice about challenges, litigation and repercussions that may last a lifetime.

BTW: Tainan, haven't said so before but am very glad to hear you are doing better after your operation.

well thats my .02 cents worth,
UM.

[SevenStar]

Tainan,

Glad to hear that you are on the road to recovery.



Wandering Monk,

Out of curiosity, why would you assume that the guy trained in silat?