And therein lies the problem...

[Merryprankster]

steve and WoD, i hope you guys do continue doing judo. the more people who do it the better we will all become.

This is a quotation from the Underground, on the Judo and Sambo forum, and embodies what I think is the problem with the quality of the CMA that people on here complain about.

You need more, not fewer, people doing it.

[Starchaser107]

ok,...
how so?
how does quantity enhance quality?

[yenhoi]

the more hands to touch the better.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

more people, higher level and more competition.

;)

[MasterKiller]

Well, I would add that we need more serious people doing it. We teach about 100 people at my school, and only about 12 have the capacity to actually use anything we teach. If we added 100 more to the roster, I doubt if the 2nd number would go up much. We have moms, and families, and kiddies....customers. We only have a few students.

[Water Dragon]

But only if you have competition.

[norther practitioner]

When you expand the pool to choose from you have a more elite top percentage... So the top fights are better, which is a motivator for those in the community...

[Tak]

You need more, not fewer, people doing it.

Perhaps, but the problem remains: how do you attract more people away from more popular arts without selling out?

An appropriate simile is Apple Computer. They continue to make some of the world's best PCs and software. However, their popularity has never overtaken (Microsoft in software, Intel/AMD in hardware) because they've refused to sell out, and haven't figured out a way to gain massive popularity without doing so.

[Shaolin-Do]

More practitioners would broaden categories across the board.
More of a low level pool means more competition to be better, means more skilled people to draw from.
More skilled people to draw from means more skilled people in general...
so on....

[Merryprankster]

Starchaser107, see everybody else's responses.


WD--yup. Cross-pollination is also key.

But as long as people prefer "Secrets" and "Discipleship" over openess and sharing, you're ****ed.

[Merryprankster]

Perhaps, but the problem remains: how do you attract more people away from more popular arts without selling out?

Wrestling, Judo, Boxing and (rapidly) BJJ/Submission wrestling are very popular.

No quality issues across the board there.

[MasterKiller]

Openness and sharing did a lot for BJJ.

When no one outside the style was exposed to it, it took others off guard and was hard to counter. A few years and a few thousand schools later, and everyone and their sister can reasonably defend against it.

The razor cuts both ways.

[Merryprankster]

A few years and a few thousand schools later, and everyone and their sister can reasonably defend against it.

I've yet to find anybody who doesn't train groundfighting well reasonably defend against it.

That said, the quality of today's top guys is overall better than in the past. There's so much innovation and little details going on and getting passed down, which just raises the bar and the level of practice overall.

I can name a bunch of BJJers who fight for money and make their living that way, and kick ass. The openess hasn't affected them negatively at all. Rhadi still throws people like bags of rice and Judo is as open as it comes. I still take people down and wrestling is taught in school.

Invest in openness. Secrecy is for ****.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Well, I would add that we need more serious people doing it. We teach about 100 people at my school, and only about 12 have the capacity to actually use anything we teach. If we added 100 more to the roster, I doubt if the 2nd number would go up much. We have moms, and families, and kiddies....customers. We only have a few students.

Ain't that the truth. when I started at my current kwoon I could instantly tell who was going to be there in 6 months and who would attend the tournament. I think you hit it right on the head with the difference between customers and students- the people who come along every now and then (so long as there isn't a party or something else incredibly important) aren't helping themselves, they're just providing money so those of us who are serious can afford better gear. Which is a shame, because some of them have the talent, just not the drive. Makes me wonder why they don't go to a self defense class where they can learn things quickly and don't have to worry about stuff like "the basics" and memorising different forms.

[Shaolin-Do]

Sharing is caring.
:rolleyes:

[Tak]

Wrestling, Judo, Boxing and (rapidly) BJJ/Submission wrestling are very popular.

No quality issues across the board there.

Perhaps, but this has no relevance to my previous comment.

[fa_jing]

well since there's a limited amount of quality instruction, won't that mean less one-on-one time with the instructor?

Then again, there always seem to be some senior students that no longer attend that would probably be more financial incentive for them to come back and help out. Or maybe some quality instructors who were unable to get a school going, who would find success.

Personally, I don't like large classes.

[Shaolin-Do]

Yeah... Theres only 4 of us doing SC, and I love it. Sifu sees each of us enough to really correct anything we do wrong.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by fa_jing
well since there's a limited amount of quality instruction, won't that mean less one-on-one time with the instructor?

Then again, there always seem to be some senior students that no longer attend that would probably be more financial incentive for them to come back and help out. Or maybe some quality instructors who were unable to get a school going, who would find success.

Personally, I don't like large classes.

It's been my experience that, in a large class, the serious students with potential will attract the sifu's attention in class and earn personal training time outside of class. You just have to be good enough to stand out.

[Water Dragon]

4 is a good class size SD. How many did you guys start with?

[norther practitioner]

It's been my experience that, in a large class, the serious students with potential will attract the sifu's attention in class and earn personal training time outside of class. You just have to be good enough to stand out.


In class as well, as they are often asked to lead a class and may get taken aside for a few minutes here and there...

Or make it aparent that you have the will, which will make you stand out.

It sounds a bit old school cheesey afterschool special, but its the truth in a lot of cases.

[MasterKiller]

In class as well, as they are often asked to lead a class and may get taken aside for a few minutes here and there... This has been the way I've been learning for the last year or so. I lead the classes, but get one-on-one instruction for 45 minutes before class starts, twice a week, in return.

[Judge Pen]

I think I started with 15 to 20 people the same rank as I. 2 made it to first black. The non-serious students will eventually week themselves out, too.

MK: I hear you. In return for helping to teach I get an hour and half of private instruction Tuesday mornings before we go to work. Not a bad set up. Plus you learn more by teaching others anyway.

[MasterKiller]

Like I said, we have about 100 people, which remains pretty constant, even with the regular turn-over. I was the last person to reach assistant instructor level (black sash, to all you other folks), 3 years ago. There are only 3 others in class with this ranking.

EDIT--we are promoting someone tonight. He started training about a year before me, but likes to take long breaks.

[Water Dragon]

In return for teaching, I get a training partner, Muay Thai and Boxing instruction, and a body to rend.

[Merryprankster]

Perhaps, but this has no relevance to my previous comment.

On the contrary, it gets to the heart of the issue. These arts and instructors who pass them on, have not, on the whole, sold out, yet they do fine, attendance-wise. No need to sell out to attract students.

[CrippledAvenger]

Just a quick thought before I run off to class...

The most successful of these arts who ARE popular and not watered down (Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ) all have a strong sportive component. I know this kinda brings up the whole "too-deadly"/"sport is not reality" debate all over again, but the point remains that people WANT to see and participate in competitions. And of all the types of martial arts competitions out there, nothing gets as many viewers and sells as many tickets as those involving full-contact fighting.

Now, I don't know if the competative aspect should be the main aspect of a school, but it certainly does its part for both quality control and bringing in the students. Also-- openess in teaching is essential, and it is my belief that one of the best ways to foster this is through competition against other schools and disciplines.

Let the flaming commence.

[norther practitioner]

Even though I don't compete fighting wise, I'd have to give a big thumbs up to that statement.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


It's been my experience that, in a large class, the serious students with potential will attract the sifu's attention in class and earn personal training time outside of class. You just have to be good enough to stand out.
I, too, have seen this. Sifu will let anyone take a private lesson if they pay for it. But those with real potential and intrest don't always have to schedule one to get that one-on-one help. There are some who are asked to assist with the private lessons of others simply because they come to the kwoon every day they can and activly seek the advice of the higher students.

[rubthebuddha]

similar with me -- the more i help out, the more sisok helps me out.



back to merry's original argument, i think it holds a lot of truth -- more hands to work with brings more skill. but, in regard to instruction, the more focused an art gets on growing and less on instruction, the lower the quality of instructors teaching the art. that won't be the absolute and it may not be the majority. i'm currently thinking of the huge number of tae kwon do instructors around the state. years ago, there were really only a few GOOD tkd peeps, and the best around here was master young hak lee (still is, as far as i'm concerned).

now, there are a zillion tkd instructors that were students under him or those few others, didn't get very far along, then opened up their own dojangs. they automatically promoted themselves up a few degrees on their black belt, then turned out a few of their own black belts who, in turn, opened their own schools. the level of skill of instruction declined dramatically, and there was little quality control. thus, the mcdojang.

now, young hak lee's quality hasn't declined, but the average level of tkd has gone south. in this rather abstract example, more hands did not improve things.

i still agree with merry's original statement, but i think it's necessary for the level of instruction to improve right along with the level of skill, and that the quality of instruction needs to be kept tabs on.

[David Jamieson]

Interesting.

Here's how I see things.

In general, martial arts of all sorts are in an upswing. A lot of it has more to do with the types of movies that are making a resurrgence. Particularly in the North American scene.

People are simply fascinated with martial arts. Now that the quality of the martial arts movie is incomparable to the quality of martial arts movies of the 70's. It's almost as if they are 2 completely different genres. :D

Iron Monkey, CTHD, not to mention more mainstream movies that have ubiquitous fight scene using asian style martial arts. For instance, The musketeer, Brotherhood of the wolf, and the likes, also high quality, high budget movies.

Anyway, for the most part, this is what inspires the average kwoon, dojo, dojang attendee to get into martial arts.

For competitive martial arts, all Asian arts have their venues and there is a constant circuit of competitions available for schools everywhere to either choose to go to or not choose to go to.

Some asian arts are even competitive at Olympic levels (Judo, Tae Kwon Do, soon wushu.) Certainly Karate of all types is widely practiced alongside the more popular and available TaeKwonDo in N.A anyway. With Jujitsu clubs filling up more and more and mma clubs that have their fair share of traditional stylists come seekers to "broaden and give depth" in their ranks.

However, there are also those schools that do not compete, or compete in very closed associations only. Sometimes it's political, sometimes the community in the region is too small to have robust competitions.

So, it's not like we're in a lull or a deadzone here and there is a lot of quality instruction in TCMA. you likely won't find it through mainstream channels most times, but these days you can pick up the yellow pages and find some good schools teaching quality arts.

I really do think the amount of poor quality training is much smaller than some of you are assessing. It just so happens taht when quality is bad, people make more noise about it. Human nature to make judgement negatively before a positive can become clear.

anyway. good post merry.
cheers

[Ford Prefect]

lol @ the apple/mac similie. They got screwed because they had a stupid business strategy in the advent of home computers.