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Do you notice how west-centric the more vocal skeptics of traditional chinese medicine are? On the one side, you get, "This is bull****, show me some scientific evidence that this is real." However, you never hear from the other side, "Hey, I want to see some TCM-based evidence that western science is real."
Kristoffer
10-09-2003, 02:18 PM
That's coz western meicine is based on science. There is all the proof you can get. If chinece medicine is superior our western methods why in Gods name would any chinese bother with our hospitals? Why are most cliniques in China western based medicine if that is the case?
People of my country once ate poision mushrooms to get a rush that helped when killing other people. We don't use that anymore :)
Why should you keep the old ways if there are new refined medicine based on science?
(not really a skeptic of TCM, just brainstorming)
peace
Former castleva
10-09-2003, 07:50 PM
"" However, you never hear from the other side, "Hey, I want to see some TCM-based evidence that western science is real.""
How could you hear "TCM-based" evidence about it in the first place? That sounds absurd IMHO.Think about astrology to astronomy.
Besides,the term "western science" is a bit of an oxymoron (compare to "naturalistic science").
"Our men of learning do not understand science; thus they make use of yin-yang signs and beliefs in the five elements to confuse the world. Our doctors do not understand science: they not only know nothing of human anatomy, but also know nothing of the analysis of medicines; as for bacterial poisoning and infections, they have not even heard of them. We will never comprehend the chi even if we were to search everywhere in the universe. All of these fanciful notions and irrational beliefs can be corrected at their roots by science."
-Chinese Communist Party-
"Why should you keep the old ways if there are new refined medicine based on science?"
New Age. ;)
There's always a trend to streamline thinking in any field, to make things more inherently logical/less mystical- in short, to understand.
Which brings me to the topic [hah!] I was reading about an ancient Taoist Alchemy master [not some new one- no I don't remember his name right now, but I'll look it up] and his contribution to the field, what made him important, was that he was constantly railing about all the mysticism in Taoist Alchemy.
Which makes him curious [as well as a man after FC's heart] :). Now, this was back when they were still doing mostly external work, looking for the pill of immortality and stuff. He wrote things like: "So you see these Taoists pray to gods before mixing the cinnabar...it doesn't matter! Get rid of it! The mystic approach is ignorance..."
Perhaps more curious is that the Internal schools were founded after his period... there was a split, with the internalists remaining traditional, the external alchemists becoming gradually more 'scientific' and giving up the immortality quest... but they more or less died out.
So...West-centric? Maybe not.
Some reasonable points, but are you sure you want to quote the Chinese Communist Party as your voice of reason?
Former castleva
10-10-2003, 08:14 AM
OK.That´s a reasonable question.
I´m not trying to appeal to them but it demonstrates that the way we treat TCM (or pretty much anything related,if that is not too brave to say) may differ,and the fuss we´re making about things like this can be bigger than the subject in question does deserve.Kristoffer brought some points to consider,communist party rejected their remedies.Mao had a "western" doc. but eventually pushed TCM on people because of poverty,and so on.That deserves another story though.
The Private Life of Chairman Mao
Dr. Li Zhisui
Chairman Mao throughout his life used both TCM and Western medicine. Most Chinese are very pragmatic they use and accept both. Even the two Chinese doctors I know quite well who were trained at John Hopkins and worked at Los Alamos before returning to Beijing have no conflict with acupuncture and TCM.
The quote from communist party has to be taken in the context of China's attempt at becoming a developed nation rather than being stuck in its feudal past. They embraced many things from the West while at the same time rejecting much of the West.
To understand China's relationship with the West you have to understand how the West (primarily European) came to dominate and control China. They still harbor a lingering distrust of the West.
If 50 years of Communist control couldn't eradicate TCM, nothing the West offers can do it either. Many of them believe the Western approach to illness is far to aggressive and dominated by the research interest of the European/American drug companies.
http://www.qi-journal.com/
CHINA-AIDS
China succesfully experiments new anti-AIDS drug
ANIL K JOSEPH BEIJING, FEB 26 (PTI)
China has approved nation-wide clinical use of a new anti-AIDS drug, based on traditional Chinese medicine, believed to be the most effective ever used in the country.
'Immunicin' tonic, succesfully tested on 350 patients, developed by Cao Heyang, a research professor at Chinese Academy of Sciences,has been registered and obtained the approval of the state drug administration of China, media reports said today.
"Different from other aids drugs, Immunicin tonic is designed to prevent HIV virus from entering the body cells while increasing the quantity and quality of white blood cells and stimulating the immune system. Then it restrains viral activity by bringing the immune system back to normal, Cao said.
Cao conducted tests on animals at a local laboratory and after making sure the drug did not produce toxic side effects, increased the dosage on designated animals by 600 times and again found no toxic side effects.
Then he tested it on 31 aids patients in central China's henan province, after seeking the approval of the ministry of health. Test results showed the success rate was 80 per cent.
The drug has been tested on 350 patients so far.
Zhao wenli, a renowned expert with the AIDS prevention and treatment centre under the Ministry of Health, said 'Immunicin' tonic has proved to be the most effective with the least toxic effects after tests.
This was because destruction of the immune system as a result of HIV was the crux of the virus infection.
Zhao believes the new drug would gain widespread popularity for its low production cost and lack of side effects.
HIV carriers in china have exceeded one million since the first case was found in 1985. Chinese medical experts fear that over 80 per cent of the patients might miss out on medical treatment since the average cost of the treatment was too high.
Experts with the chinese centre for disease control and prevention estimated the number of AIDS patients in China, currently between 80,000 and 100,000, would possibly double in five years.
Approximately one million people across china were thought to be infected by hiv, the aids virus.
Compare to:
________________________________________________
Bone Disease Worry for Former SARS Patients
Fri Oct 10, 4:42 AM ET Add Health - Reuters to My Yahoo!
By Tan Ee Lyn
HONG KONG (Reuters) - Dozens of former SARS (news - web sites) patients in Hong Kong are suffering from bone degeneration, known as avascular necrosis, sources said Friday, throwing the spotlight back on the controversial ****tail of drugs used to treat many patients during the epidemic.
"A substantial number of cases have already been proven. We are now trying to ascertain the severity," said Leung Ping-chung, an orthopedics specialist at the Prince of Wales Hospital, where the first wave of SARS infections in Hong Kong were treated.
Almost all SARS patients in Hong Kong were treated with the anti-viral drug ribavirin and steroids earlier this year, but many health experts said at the time the efficacy of the combination was unproven and could lead to serious side-effects.
At least 10 former SARS patients from every major public hospital that tended to SARS victims in Hong Kong have been found suffering from the bone disease, Leung said. At least eight public hospitals handled SARS patients.
Avascular necrosis has also been observed in some former SARS patients in mainland China, Leung told Reuters.
______________________________________
Former castleva
10-10-2003, 08:58 AM
Comparing;
"Bone Disease Worry for Former SARS Patients"
with
"CHINA-AIDS
China succesfully experiments new anti-AIDS drug "
RAF,I hope you are not squeezing these cases to a supressed presentation of an idea,of yours.
"Many of them believe the Western approach to illness is far to aggressive and dominated by the research interest of the European/American drug companies."
Unfortunately that´s what many European/American people apparently believe.Not that I´m after their faith but sometimes it´s gonna hurt.
Of course I am. Logic and rationality are only minor players in the game of life. Right? Medicine, at best, is an art with a few chicken bones thrown in. Medicine is largely in the realm of social science and in denial.
You know me, don't you? I don't hold science and medicine in such a pure and idealistic fashion as you.
http://www.gradpsych.duq.edu/missionhtml/aboutthedept.html
http://www.mythosandlogos.com/ep.html
The scientific methodology of the natural sciences has provided the model for the conduct of research in the social sciences. There this model holds the ascendancy, and the understanding gained on this basis is widely acknowledged. Although the model has had much to offer, however, scholars are becoming increasingly aware of its negative potential and its socially destructive consequences. Hence, some begin to question the adequacy of such a model for the conduct of the social sciences.
Its underlying Cartesian assumptions are being challenged; critiques of the experimental method, quantitative analysis and objectifying tendencies become more numerous. Many critiques point to the dehumanizing effects of this model, the trivial nature of its findings and its pseudo-scientific trappings. The most telling criticism, however, is in terms not so much of what this model produces, but of what it leaves out, namely, the human being in a human world. Hence, other and more recent philosophical traditions are now being examined for their potential for providing a more adequate basis for understanding in the social sciences.
In 1959 the graduate program of the Department of Psychology of Duquesne University was initiated with the intention of developing psychology as a human science, as an alternative to the natural scientific paradigms prevalent in the United States. Since then, 77 books, 745 articles and 144 doctoral dissertations have been published by the Department in furthering this project. In a historical survey of phenomenological, existential and humanistic psychologies, the Department was identified as "the capital of phenomenological psychology in the New World".
Professor Adrian van Kaam, the founder of the Department, used the European term "anthropological phenomenology" to describe the approach and defined it as "fundamentally a mode of existence of a psychologist who seeks a comprehensive or a differential knowledge of intentional behavior as this manifests itself, with the least possible imposition of psychological theory or method, personal and cultural prejudice or need, and language habit. Later, Professor Amedeo Giorgi clarified this approach to psychology further in a work entitled, Psychology as a Human Science: a Phenomenologically Based Approach. Throughout the more than 30 years of the program's existence, faculty members have been revising the various branches of psychology, critiquing their natural scientific biases and proposing models which are more reflective of human experience.
The present study is part of that search for an alternative philosophical foundation. In keeping with its desire to include the human, the term "human sciences" is used to differentiate from the term " social sciences" which is so closely tied to the natural scientific model.
http://www.crvp.org/book/Series03/III-6/foreword.htm
Science and medicine is and always has been about psychology and human behavior. There is no independent scientific method outside of human existence. As a result, science is an ideology on par with religion. Its no wonder the communist party embraced it.
Bye!
ctoepker
10-13-2003, 02:24 PM
The discussion of viewpoint is an interesting one indeed. IMHO the main problem is a misunderstanding of the 'eastern' viewpoint.
To imagine that the Chinese or anyone else was less driven to explain or explore the world around them is to ignore their accomplishments in science and technology and the methodology they used. Needham's work on science and technology is a good start and there are even better ones in Chinese if you're willing to go to that length. (Which I highly recommend.)
In any case, until 'the west' defined itself in opposition to 'the east' there was no such thing. With just a bit of digging one can see Chinese medical ideas first passing to the middle east or Europe, modified and flow back again to be further influenced and back yet again, etc.
It is good to examine the scientific process and perhaps suggest its underpinnings are not perfect. Indeed, this is what seperates it from religion...one need not accept its assumptions to do work in the field. Be that as it may, re-examining the 'western' POV doesn't suddenly make the 'eastern' POV accurate. Some things are just impossible and even ancient Chinese scientists and philosophers new it.
Perhaps they asked Alice....
"'I can't believe that!'" she said, and when the Queen urged her to try harder, Alice replied, "'There's no use trying…one can't believe impossible things.'"
"'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.'"
.02,
CT
GeneChing
10-20-2003, 11:45 AM
...the last thing I'd want to see is some form of 'scientific acupuncture.' I hate acupuncture. I find it uncomfortable and expensive (just like western medicine). I only resort to it when all else fails. I'm sure if it became a 'science' it would become even more expensive and probably less effective.
I will say that when my allergies used to get really bad, nothing else worked but acupuncture. Fortunately, my allergies have been better since I moved to Fremont, so I haven't had to subject myself to that barbaric practice. ;)
Really, who cares if it's scientific or not? Health isn't rocket science (and thank goodness or we'd be blowing up like the shuttle occasionally :p ) I would like to see complementary therapies paid for by my health insurence, but proven? I'd rahter use and unproven method that works than a scientific method that doesn't.
Really, who cares if it's scientific or not? Health isn't rocket science (and thank goodness or we'd be blowing up like the shuttle occasionally ) I would like to see complementary therapies paid for by my health insurence, but proven? I'd rahter use and unproven method that works than a scientific method that doesn't.
Additionally, I find it ironic that people attack TCM for not being scientific, when many of its methodologies evolved from a trial-and-error system. Experimenting, noting what works, then developing a theory to explain the results - pretty scientific. Later, we may decide that another theory more accurately predicts the results, but hey, that's science.
TCM differs in this respect from pseudosciences that put forth a theory about how something should work, then sell you a product to support that theory. (Example: magnets can make you more healthy by "realigning your red blood cells, which are high in iron," so if you wear these magnetic shoe inserts, it will cure your cancer, make you more virile, and triple your chances of winning the lottery!)
GeneChing
10-20-2003, 04:51 PM
...Science is more that trial, error and theory. TCM is TCM. While there's some effort to analyze it scientifically, it's a far cry from science. Perhaps it might be someday. Perhaps we'll have a global unifying theory too. Until then, I'll stick with what works for me. When the 'laws' of science restrict me, which can often be the case in our arena here, I defy laws. ;)
I'm thinking of this in the way that I think of, say, the ancient Greek or any pre-Kepler models of planetary movement. They saw the planets moving, and were able to reasonably approximate and predict that movement, at least in the short to mid term, using a model of planets in circular orbits that was derived from Greek philosophy (circle is the perfect shape, and the heavens are the embodiment of perfection).
We have since found a more accurate model, but that doesn't change the predictive accuracy of the ancient star charts (in their time).
GeneChing
10-21-2003, 09:55 AM
That's true, but that hade a funny picture of it all. Their universe was earthcentric, not solar, which meant that the planets and sun travelled around the earth. This made the predictions a little off. The other celestial bodies seemed to travle backwards at times. So they came up with the concept of retrograde motion to compensate. Retrograde motion is still used heavily in Astrology, in fact, the most casual astrologer knows to beware when mercury is in retrograde.
So indeed, the predictive model worked even though it was based on incorrect data, and the problems that occured from that incorrect data were intellectuallized. This gets to the heart of the problem with science. A true scientist knows that there are vast fields unexplanable by science, but an armchair scientist views it as absolute. Such glaring problems like retrograde motion are conveniantly explained away, when in fact, they hold the key to the next step in theory. It's how things like Piltdown man can happen. And it's akin to fringe theory like placebo effect or hypnosis. Here is where breakthroughs are made.
ctoepker
10-21-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by GeneChing
... Until then, I'll stick with what works for me. When the 'laws' of science restrict me, which can often be the case in our arena here, I defy laws. ;)
And how do you propose defying the law of gravity? Or conductivity? Etc. This line of 'whatever works' can only go so far. Ancient Chinese scientists and doctors recognized this and modern TCM-ists ignore 'western' advancements at their peril.
CT
GeneChing
10-21-2003, 01:49 PM
...ok, maybe in my youth when I dabbled in wushu, it would have been fun to defy gravity. But on the whole, gravity is a good thing. conductivity too. :p
The fundamental bottom line of "whatever works" is "works". Take my allergies for example. I ran the whole spectrum of allergy meds. Most of the OTC stuff made me too irritable, to the point where I almost attacked some poor stranger who stood in front of me with 11 items in a 10 item express checkout. The expensive scripts like beconase, et. al. made me too spacy to drive and function. Acupuncture worked. So that's what I used. When it stops working, I'll move on to something else.
As for gravity and conductivity, that works too. At least for me it does. ;)
Starchaser107
10-21-2003, 03:54 PM
lol
very down to earth post gene , no pun intended.
ctoepker
10-21-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by GeneChing
The fundamental bottom line of "whatever works" is "works".
Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying...and it does make a lot of sense.
To me though, aim at 'works' is the same thing that happens everywhere...eastern and western, science and TCM.
It seems to me that one of the main differences is that TCM has slowed down in asking "why 'it' works" and preferred to rest on shaky ground such as "it is ancient and venerable."
So, you probably can guess then why I thought VikingGoddess's suggestion for greater clinical studies, etc. a good one.
CT
GeneChing
10-21-2003, 04:33 PM
Actually it's all moot. Since I moved to Fremont, my allergies have been minimal. Must be all that salt marsh air. Anyway, no allergies, no need for acupuncture. Which is good, since as I've stated before, I hate acupuncture. Also since claritin became OTC, that's been enough to handle the occasional hay fever attack. So as you can see, I'm not attached to modern medicine or TCM. I'm attached to results.
Ironically, one of my best friends became a licensed acupuncturist, but I'd never let him needle me. We're great buddies, but like any buddies, there's a lot of water under the bridge, and I just couldn't put myself in such a position of vulnerablility with him.
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