Opinions on Challenges

[red5angel]

I ask this for one reason, because we have no formal way of identifying who should be teaching and who shouldnt be. There are a lot of people out there that claim to be a teacher and claim to have a lot of background but possibly do not, and only have a story to back them up.
I understand that in the asian community (and if you are asian and disagree, please correct me on this) it is common, or was more so in the not so distant past, to challenge so-called sifu in the community. This was often doen by people of similar MA but not always, a common reason to challeneg someone was to see if they knew enough to teach the person challenging. Anyway, What I am wondering is, should the MA community look at this sort of thing as a way of making sure that people who are teaching should be?

Red5angel

[Water Dragon]

YES

[Starchaser107]

Some people are just looking for a fight, and it has nothing to do with the reputation and credability of the organization. They seek fame and glory or have some other dubious agenda. So I'd say that sometimes a situation might arise and a school may have to back up thier claims if it is believed that they are fraudulent.
Kicking thier @ss is the testosterone based response, maybe other channels could be persued, but if theres too much red tape , maybe an underground challenge is best.
I also believe that there are many egotistical fools out there who think that thier style is the best and everyone else is inferior. If they spread such garbage they should be prepared to back up thier claims.
I know some kung fui schools and Sifus have been very arrogant and belligerent in thier response to other schools bad mouthing kungfu as flowery, or exessive motion, and maybe at times such events have come to scraps.

[red5angel]

You are right, it isnt about kicking someons butt, just testing thier abilities. You go to a class, watch how it is taught, maybe participate, and then touch hands with the sifu, or spar, or whatever else you have that would be a sufficient way of testing skill.
This is not an oppurtunity to kick the crap out of someone, it should be respectful but you should be able to provide a skillful challenge to the person you challenge. Go with the attitude that you should learn something. Dont challenge anyone in front of thier class, take them to the side, etc....
I am not talking about the MArtial Police here but I know in my area there are a lot of people who are claiming to be sifu who shouldn't be doing it and this could be hurting thos ethat are learning from them.

[red5angel]

It would probably also be best if you studied the same style as the person you are challenging. That way you can be sure that you know what you and they are doing.

[joedoe]

I was told that traditionally all the sifus in the area would take their turn at testing the skill of a new sifu. This was the only way a new sifu could earn the respect and acceptance of the incumbent sifus.

My sifu told me that when he first moved to Australia and set up his school, he got heaps of challenges. Basically it was the same deal - the local sifus wanted to test his skills.

As long as it is done with respect and the intent of testing their skills rather than to beat them up, I see challenges as a kind of quality control procedure :)

[Chen]

Whilst I agree with some of the aspects above, what about considering the fact that someone may be able to communicate a subject really well even if they cannot produce the goods in a spar / fight.

A good example of this would be a boxing coach, who teaches the boxer thier skill and does not step in the ring with them to prove he is the better fighter.

I know of some very skilled martial artists who are unable to break down thier techniques and teach it. I know of others who teach really well, but cannot put it into practice.

another aspect to consider is the aging teacher who has a life time of experience. Are suggesting a young athletic, fit fighter go into a gym and challenge such a person?

[sanchezero]

I think 'challenges' amongst all martial artists are a good thing if done without malice. There are few enough avenues to test one's skill as it is.

I'm not sure about strolling into some school and throwin' down over a bunch of contracts - "I have whipped your a$$, now I will take your students MUHAHAAHA!" - but I think that if challenges were an accepted part of the MA community there'd be alot fewer McDojos.

I don't think challenges should be limited to instructors, either. Students (when and if they're ready; a whole different topic) can learn alot about their weaknesses by 'fighting' someone new. I believe challenges should cross styles when possible so you can see some different sh!t.

I have tried going to a couple of area schools and talk hands with different teachers and students. I talk openly about what I want to do in a respectful manner. I am cheerful and polite. I have never been taken up on it. People will occasionally play a coupla 1-steps, but I've even been turned down for chi sao at a wing chun school. :mad:

BRING BACK THE CHALLENGES!!!

:D

[Starchaser107]

I doubt that this is the arguement being proposed

on the grounds that the aged Sifu with years upon years of experience would have themselves a reputation that preceded them most likely by then. any such sifu would more than likely have
been established already. Although there was a documentary on martial arts on discovery that had a sub story about a senior master who was respected and had knowledge of the dim muk, there was a young sifu going around making challenges and the master repeatedly declined. after a long long long period of declining the master finally reacted with the dim muk...

Also with respect to the Sifu who is an exellent coach like in the boxing analogy, I would think that such a sifu would know his/her limitations and advrtize themselves as such. Even So is it so uncommon for a Sifu to send his student out if he cant be bothered to fight himself, or is this a disrespect?

Two points Im making with the first statement regarding the older sifu.
(1) age doesnt mean that a sifu is too decrepid to fight if so then theres a chance that the sifu would have retired

(2) age Probably means that the sifu would not have to contend with proving himself as he would have done so in his youth with his contemporaries. an older sifu or a sigung being challenged by a younger sifu seems obnoxious. and they would have to be very confident in thier ability to defend thier disrespect, also they would be looked down upon as somewhat of an upstart to make such a challenge.

[joedoe]

My Sigung used to take challenges all the time - even up until the age of about 70. I'd even heard that he agreed to do chi sao with a visitor at the age of 83.

As I said before, as long as it is about testing skills and not kicking the sh!t out of someone, then challenges are a good way of ensuring that a sifu is good at what he does.

[CanadianBadAss]

hmmm... would it be wrong to challenge sifus not for really testing their ability, but for testing my own and for experience?

[Budokan]

There's nothing wrong with challenges because some people were born to be b*tch-slapped.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Challenges keep it real.

I wish there were actually more callenging going on.

Especially in the Mc Dojo scene.

[Ryu]

Depends I guess.
"Challenging" can be alot of things, even putting your "credentials" themselves on the line.

"Challenging" as in going to schools to fight, I don't agree with.
Well again, I guess it depends. There are legitimate martial artists out there who don't like fighting unless they really have no choice. Friendly sparring is one thing, but the motivation to "see who wins in a fight" doesn't really go well with me I suppose.
then again I'm not a teacher. :)

But if I was, I would be worrying about teaching students realistically, with competitive randori, and friendly atmospheres.
As far as I'm concerned if someone comes to the school to "fight" for no reason, he is responsible for whatever happens to him. Even if it means getting maced in the eyes, stun gunned, shot, whatever.
Someone wanting to fight for no reason is one of my pet peeves.
I really don't care if I can beat him with my hands or not. I'll be a "*****" and cheat. ;)

Ryu

[wufupaul]

I think challenges are a good thing, too. It's kind of like an underground method of testing a school, making sure it's a good one. I've only seen one challenge in a martial arts school. I was studying JKD at the time and visiting another local JKD school. Some jock(big football player looking guy) came in and was watching the class, smirking. I was right near them, so I could hear bits of the conversation. The instructor went up to the guy and made some friendly conversation. Then the jock said something about how what the people in the class were doing didn't look very effective. The instructor just kinda ignored it and just stood there watching the class. Then the jock guy goes "Hey, what would you do if I did this?" several times, throwing out several punches and trying to slap the instructor's body. The JKD instructor just grabbed the guy's arm, locked him up, and threw him face first on the ground, and started yelling at him "You want a piece of me? You want a piece of me?" It was crazy, we stopped class to watch it. Then he let the guy up and the guy just looked at him funny and walked out in a hurry. The instructor told us to get back to work. I liked the instructor's technique, but I didn't like his attitude, so, that was the first and last time I went to that school.

[Ryu]

Well hey like I said. The guy is responsible for what happens to him.
See there? I think the jock was incredibly incredibly rude for doing that. If that is what most people think "challenging" is then I'd say the MA community does NOT need that. Very childish.
As far as the instructor's attitude, well he ignored him at first, and took him out when the guy wouldn't let up. Shouting like that probably scared the guy off a bit too.
No one really wants to fight someone crazy.. ;)

Ryu

[Fish of Fury]

"then again I'm not a teacher" - Ryu


hey Ryu, didn't you have an old phase 1 instructorship under paul vunak ? is that any good anymore?

AHAHAHA AHAHA AAAAARGH!


sorry,
i suk
:(

[Kristoffer]

yes

[shaolinboxer]

I don't really approve of inter-school challanges....it endangers the school the challenge takes place in.

What I do approve of and infact think is absolutely necessary is all students should be able to challenge their instructor by resisting his/her technique within reason (meaning not flying into a sloppy berserker rage).

In the school I train, our instructor generally likes to remain quiet. If you are thinking, man I could just stand there an flex or throw a punch at his face and he'd be in trouble, you may ask him to demonstrate why that is not possible. Sometimes he will walk through the dojo and look at every one, offering them the opportunity to challenge him. It is a general rule that the harder you resist, the more difficult it will be to absorb the technique (I learned that one day when I really tried to bear down on him with both hand on his right wrist, the impact with the mat injured my hand and made the whole room get reeeeeeeally fuzzy for a while).

Challenging one anothers technique should be a gradual process. It does noone any good to resist a beginners technique everytime. But how can you develop real technical skill and strength if your partner is always cooperating?

I have seen guys walk into schools and laugh at the classes and offer challanges. None of these situations turned into fights. If you are very very advanced, it must be tempting to accept. However, that same level of advancement should teach a person why they should not accept.

[red5angel]

It seems like most people look at it sensibly. When I suggested this, and I want to reiterate this, I wasn't looking for every martial arts 'superstar' out there to wander around town challeneging everyone they could to test thier abilities, or ego, or what have you. Our community needs some sort of control over who is teahcing and who isn't.
this is how I picture your 'average' challenge: You, as a sifu yourself, or an advanced student, wander into a local kwoon that has just opened up. You wait to get the chance to talk to the sifu, find out about his background, maybe sit in on the class. Afterwards, if there is a way of testing his skill other than sparring, like touch hands, push hands, chi sau, or whatever, then ask to do so with the sifu or his best student. Otherwise, ask to spar, respectfully, with either. After the fact, thank the sifu/student for the oppurtunity to learn from them and leave. Then think about what you experienced and let the rest of the community know what you have found.
If you just want to test your own skill, well, find another martial artist who is interested in the same and set up a play date. This forum may be a good place to find those people.
I wouldn't recommend:
being disrespectful, there is no need, no matter what the sifus actual level of ability is.
challenge a sifu in front of his class. He may be one of those instructors who can teach better then he can perform. In this case you just want to make sure he knows his stuff, and can atleast do the basics. To show him up in front of his class by beating him because you are younger, faster, better, what have you, is disrespectful and unnecessary. Then it is more a comment on your ability then thiers.
Challenging students. If a sifu doesn't want to meet your challenge, right away, be persistant, stop by every once in a while and offer again. If he offers you a challenge with one of his students, then take it, but it would be disrespectful to approach his students as they may not be a good reckoning on his own ability.
Looking for a fight, this is supposed ot be a test of someones ability to teach, not his abliity to defend himself. If you dont understand what this means then you shouldnt be challenging anyone.

[Suntzu]

guy open a school in the local strip mall. Down the street at the other strip mall is another school of similar(maybe not) style. An instructor ffrom the old school pays the new school a visit after the last night class. The 2 chit-chat about this and that, find out they have smilar backgrounds, been at some of the same tourney's fought some of the same guys. "let's throw on the pads and see what's up," say the established instructor. they spar for a few, it's soon over. one guy is a fraud one is the real deal, or they are both equally good. no one got hurt, maybe. friendly challenge is good.:D

[rubthebuddha]

friendly challenge is good, yes.

but remember that we are all part of a group of people that are notorious for having huge egos, bad attitudies and very narrow opinions. what's worse is that little is done to correct this in some of the more well-known people. add that these egos are rarely actually tested, and that all the bull**** that has negatively affected the martial arts is often more prevalent than the positive stuff.

take the emin boztepe and william cheung feud. originally started as a feud between leung ting and william cheung, boztepe took it on himself to do something about it and challenged cheung. the sick attempt at a challenge match the two had settled little, as both sides argue that they were victorious. since the video footage offered doesn't show anyone all that successful in defeating the other, we're back to square one.

flash forward to the present, and boztepe and cheung still don't like each other, 15 years later. i've even heard that boztepe has renewed his challenge to cheung, a fact that impresses me further knowing that emin is about 40 and cheung is pushing, if not past, 60.

now both these men are expert students in their styles - emin has his ebmas (no LT/KK vs. EB comments, please) and cheung has his twc - and both are supposedly icons and role models for their students. the question is, what role are they modeling? that of the humble instructor who cares more for his students and their growth, or that of the flighty instructor who constantly has something to prove and seeks out conflict so they can prove it?

again, i like the idea of challenges - they're a great way to practice what you preach and really test what you have. i'm just not all that confident that most martial artists are mature enough to handle themselves when their reputation and pride are on the line.

[myosimka]

If the world wwere full of friendly challenges, they'd be great. But that's not always the way it works out. Remember the most agressive student you ever had? You know the one. About 6 months of experience elsewhere. With some guy into S.C.A.R.S. or some other 'realistic training'. And everytime you explain anything it's followed with "But couldn't you stomp the knee and cripple him as you drove a knifehand into this eyes? That'll cause him to drop so you can get a decent rear naked choke and break the neck simultaneously." (Dude, he just shook my hand! Seriously, that happened in a class demonstration on wrist locks and responses) Well he learned that attitude from someone.

When someone walks into your dojo/kwoon/dojang for the first time and challenges, you never know. They could be the taichi instructor just looking to push hands, they could be the BJJ guy looking for light rolling with submission, they could be the guy that the police forced to close down a scholl and leave town following his 3rd assault charge in 6 months(true story 'bout that guy)

And all it takes is starting friendly on one side and the other deciding it's a streetfight and things get nasty in a matter of seconds. While I have pretty good coverage, I am liable for what goes on in that room. I love to trade techniques and workout with other MA system guys. But I don't spar on the first night with them. Ever. I don't know if I need to tone it down or crank it up til I've watched them a few times.


As to testing/proving my skills. I invite instructors from all types of schools to do seminar work in my class. We even do round robin nights where 3-4 guest sifus/senseis/rollers/badasses/etc. are in there.(That class is a blast by the way!!) My students get to see my training and someone elses and decide for themselves. For some the Krav Maga route is too violent, for some aikido is not effective enough. Would me kicking the crap out of an aikidoka or vice versa and same with krav maga stylist prove anything? Doubt it. The other big thing I do is encourage my students to go attend other classes. Funny thing is-that attitude keeps more students than it costs.

There is a rival school here(ain't it always the way) constantly talking trash. I have invited them to come in and back it up or meet at a local gym, whatever. No response. Have invited them to do the seminar route. No response. Have encouraged my students to visit their class and take it if interests them more. They've done this on numerous occasions and 3 times now the students told me without my asking that they were saying what I taught was crap. Though they've never been in my class. Funny thing is the students made up their own minds. No challenge necessary.


Gotta admit, it's **** tempting though. But then again, what I have in mind in the dark of night isn't exactly a friendly challenge either. So I guess I'd have to say I think challeneges are sort of silly. I am all in favor of crosstraining and the exchange of ideas. All for testing things out in the ring, with friends or NHB. But I hope that the days of challenges are mostly gone.

[Suntzu]

well that goes to prove maybe I have a slightly swollen dome. And true maybe most people aren't as openly friendly as I. And also spotlighted my naivete. But I would HOPE, top level MA's would have a lil' more class and restraint to just have a friendly exchange thru the touching of hands. but once again, i am a lil naive, and probably would fall victim to the knee smash knife hand combo during a courtesy bow.

I was at a tourny and seen 2 guys beat the crap out of each other and shared a hug and sat together and chatted about the experience. Same tourny, a guy caught a bloody nose and afterwards ran to the locker room bichin a fit and wouldn't accept the other guys apology. maybe schools should be a lil more selective about there students. off topic i know, but maybe that cryin dude will oneday be an instructor.

[red5angel]

Well, as we all should realize, nothing is ever perfect. Rubthebuddha, and Myosimka, you both have very valid and very good points. Its true, not all things can go the way we plan, and we have the risk of getting hurt or hurting someone when we do what we do, in play or whatever.
I share Suntzus' opinion in that I hope most martial artist are respectful and mature enough to understand what we are trying to discuss here, that we need a way of maintaining quality in our training and in our society, Martial Arts. Right now, we have no governing body, some systems have one way, some have others, and some have none. The challenge system can help to keep things honest, and I hope promote fellowship and responsibility amongst our martial arts brothers and sisters.
Myosimka, your point on liability and all of that is well taken, but we dont always sign a contract stating we wont sue, when we spar. You may not know who you are dealing with, and obviously your will is your own, and if someone who gives you a bad feeling walks in, you have the right to turn him away or down.
I see this as more of an oppurtunity to bring martial artist closer together as a community. That way I can walk into a karate/TKD dojo, and spar with a few people to test my skill against thier style, etc.... but also to maintain a certain level of respect and ability amongst sifu. There are a lot of people out there saying they know a lot more then they do.

[Suntzu]

there have been many a times when I have driven past a school and wondered if I'm as good as they are and vice versa and there is only one way to tell. Sad, that I may look like some a-hole for wanting to play.

as a student, ofcourse, I'm far from a master.

[KC Elbows]

I've thought a lot about this, and I feel that, when I am a teacher, I will take challenges. However, I will only take them from serious fighters wishing to test their style and my own, and, in order to challenge me, I will expect the following(you guys are probably going to think I'm nuts):

-The challenger and I will set a date. In the morning of that date, we will get together and stretch.
-Then, we will sit for tea, and talk about our lives, our families and experiences, our fighting experiences, our goals, etc.
-We will then have the challenge, with seconds, just to keep everyone honest.
-Afterwards, regardless of who wins, we will attend to our potential injuries, and each person will be expected to point out the strengths of the other.
-Finally, we go someplace good for lunch, my treat.

If someone isn't willing to plan all that, then they shouldn't waste my time.

So, am I crazy?

[Dark Knight]

myosimka did a good job at explaining it. I have fought many people from other styles and it proves nothing.

Also when egos are involved you never know what the other person will do. I fought on guy who was trying to impress his student by fighting with me. he was a 5th in Ju-Jitsu and I had just gotten my 5th in Kempo. When he could not submit me he went to fishhooks. I grabed him by the groin and he released me. in the end no one won but we had fun (I had a back ground in JJ so I was not doing something I hadnt been trained for)

In another school I came in to fight with the students and the instructor decided it was a good night for full contact. What was suppose to be a friendly sparring session turned into a slug fest. The students just got to see to guys trading shots, it proved nothing.

In a challenge what may be agreed upon rules can change and you find yourself fighting for you life or taking one.

This does not prove that one is better qualified to teach, or knows his information. Its not a quality control method.

Challenges may sound cool or look good in the movies, but when it comes time, win or lose you will still go home hurt against a good fighter.

I have had many injuries while fighting, countless bloody noses, black eyes, Ive had both shoulders out a couple of times and continued to fight. (And these were friends) Finding out how good you are isnt always fun. (But I love it still:))

[Laughing Cow]

Who here as observed one, taken part in on?

[themeecer]

Do you mean within the dojo or dojo against dojo? I've heard stories of dojo wars but never have taken part in one. My teacher did have a 'candle burning' for some challengers that wanted him out of the town he was teaching in.

[Laughing Cow]

BOTH.

I hear stories of both, but so far most people only talk from hearsay from someone that heard something, etc.

[Water Dragon]

You have offended my famiry, and you have offended the Shaooo-Lin Temple. Now You must die!

[yenhoi]

this is a good one.

:eek:

[David Jamieson]

School to school challenges...
That's what tournaments and opens are for.

That kind of stuff doesn't happen too much at all anymore.

Seems the rivalry is more in the in-style politics now.

well, except for one poster here who used to meet anyone by the pond at 11:45 on the night of the full moon, if it was a sunday, in may and only if three pigeons, two squirrels a duck and an empty yogurt cup were present.

:rolleyes:

I've heard stories as recently as a few years ago were there was some problems at a lion dance tournament in singapore or somewhere in malaysia. Spear through a drum or something like that.

Not much in the way of count danté stuff these day.

cheers

[neit]

i must admit that the stories i hear about challenge matches that happened 20 years ago very intriging. especially if the person telling me was involved. seems so movie esque. its like how could chinatown in the 70's and 80's been so different from now?

[MasterKiller]

I fought a guy from a local TKD school about 18 months ago. He came into our school on a Friday night and pretty much challenged us. He said he wasn't allowed to spar anymore at his school because he was too rough, and he wanted to know if we would like some lessons. I was the senior student present, so I accepted.

I choked him out in about 5 moves.

[Ray Pina]

Folks wander into my master's school all the time ... it usually equals a new student or two. At 62 my master insists on handling these things personally -- something that I hope changes very soon.

[jimbob]

In the mid/late 80's when I was spending some time with the southern mantis guys we had 3 taekwondo "champions" call on us and issued a challenge.

One of them had trained in Korea for a year, one of them was a 4th degree black belt yadda yadda yadda. They got mightily upset when our Si Suk asked one of the mid level students to go against them. Terribly insulted. I think the student was a bit put off too - he looked like he was $hitting pineapples.

Anyway - Mr "I've been in Korea for a year" went first, dropped into a full box split and bounced up ready to go. Told us not to be ridiculous when we offered them headgear to wear. Our guy - eyes wide and perspiration on his top lip,looked a bit lost. I don't think he'd ever even contemplated doing the splits before, much less had someone offer them up to him right in his face.

Mr Korea All Star came in with a fast high round kick, caught our guy upside the head and sat him on his butt. It was a beautiful kick. Mr Korea looked back at his cronies, laughed and told them they had nothing to worry about.

Our guy gets back up and shapes up again. Taekwondo guy faints a front kick which he turns into another high roundkick. This time, our guy, already moving forward to intercept the front kick, steps inside nicely as can be, swings a hammerfist (gow chui) down onto the taekwondo guy and obliterates his nose and two front teeth.

Much blood from "I've been in Korea" dude.

Much silence from his friends.

The taekwondo guy falls over, clutching his face. His friends stop to recover one tooth (we found the other one later), picked him up and they all left.

Our guy still looks like he's just laid an egg.

It's late here - if this thread is still active when I come back I'll post another about my encounter with a judo guy.

[norther practitioner]

A teacher I know wasn't welcome in town when he had his first school there. When people would talk down about him he'd invite them to the school, ask what there beef was. If they openly said to him what it was (usually talking about how young he was, or wasn't good enough yet to open a school) then he'd say well, I know this, and say if I need to prove myself I will, the pads are over there, why don't you put some on. He'd do this in a friendly matter, usually the two would cross hands in a, "friendly," way, trading techniques etc. If the person was being shady, he'd do the same thing, only ask them if they'd stop badmouthing him, over time, if they didn't stop they'd end up sparring, etc.. lets just say that he was better respected after this whole ordeal was done. A lot of these guys were saying he couldn't fight, he didn't know his arts, etc. Trying to take away his students and if unsuccesful would try to pick fights in extreme cases.... There are some details that aren't included, but that is the general gist of how things went down. I met one of the guys that this guy fought not too long ago, he did corroborate the story, and helped this guy out after they, "crossed hands," and said,"I thought that these (lists off like 5 guys) new there stuff and they badmouthed him, so I figured they were right when they said he was stepping on toes," then added, "After we crossed hands, I realized that he was cool, new more than most those other guys, but he just happend to be younger, I think they were just jeoulous."

[Liokault]

About 10 years ago a guy called Tony Leung was teaching temple mantis in london. He was quite big on pushing him self and had a monthly spot in the UKs biggest maertial arts magazine but he seems to have disapeared now.

Anyway he was big on liniage and decided that if you can not trace your line back 10 generations yada yada yada. He also wrote a list of guys teaching kung fu that didnt meet up to his idea of correct liniage and thia is the stare of his problems.

One of the guys who did kung fu under a person named by Mr Leung took offense at this, went to his school and challanged him thre old fashioned way.

Now its hard to make out what happend next but there was fighting between the 2 principles involved. The out come remained unclear as I have heard the story from both sides (I know the challanger and Tony Leung printed his version of the story in a magazine) and both claim some form of victory.

The out come is really not the point........the poiint is that this stuff still happens.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I fought a guy from a local TKD school about 18 months ago. He came into our school on a Friday night and pretty much challenged us. He said he wasn't allowed to spar anymore at his school because he was too rough, and he wanted to know if we would like some lessons. I was the senior student present, so I accepted.

I choked him out in about 5 moves.

I've been in that situation also.

[fa_jing]

Once, at our BJJ class, Renzo Gracie gave a special seminar. People from 4 different states came to watch as Renzo is a world-reknowned instructor in the deadly art of Jiu-Jitsu. Unbeknowngst to we the participants, a small Korean guy about 5'4" was standing near the back of the training hall. Renzo was working with one of his partners when the guy walks up to Renzo and said, "BJJ no good to fight!" Renzo is like, who is this guy? He kindly says, "what is your background in the martial arts" to the Korean gentlemen. "Hwa Rang Do," he replied. He was short, which was unusual, but quite stocky. "Would you like to cross hands" says Renzo, assuming a stance with his arms held slighty open. The challenger suddenly jumps onto the air and side kicked Renzo in the head, before we could blink, and soon blood and teeth were flying everywhere. I tell you, many of us left our study of Jiu-Jitsu that day and signed up with the local Hwa Rang Do instructors. However, we never found out who the challenger really was.

[The Willow Sword]

Being a spirited poster here on the forums and once a proud Sd student i brought it upon myself to challenge Reemul becuse he was, as others were and still are bad mouthing SD. So i decided to challenge him and it first i had the support of my teacher, although he was rather hesitant(for obvious reasons about How SD is seen my the rest of the MA world) anyway i meet reemul and we show forms and talk with a few participlants there. we decided to postpone the sparring as we were in a park with families around. we re-scheduled and i met reemul on his turf at the east wind training hall(now mind you the shakey support i had of my teacher was now withdrawn and i pretty much had to go thier on my own. going with downed spirits and heart not being in it i met the challenge and got my a$$ kicked(and actually reemul was being leniant with me for i think that he could see that my heart wasnt in it). Challenge ended with respect gained from eastwind and reemul(i believe this to be true) and i reprioritized my feelings and dedication to SD and decided to leave SD and become an independant.
Schools challenging schools i have learned is a touchy thing, especially when a school doesnt want to really defend itself against its critics, they instead do nothing and the students of said schools have to defend it for them, which i think is wrong and shows little or no integrity on the schools founders part or the main instructors part.
you know it would be better if schools could just leave other schools alone and not be so harshly critical but sadly this is not a reality, one has to deal with others in the community and i believe that one should be active and open in the martial arts community rather than elitest and a snob.
Anyway with the challenge of reemul leaving me with cracked ribs and a better sense of who i am and how i needed to better train and gear my thinking. So i think in some instances the ego challenging thing can be a positive one.
Many respects,,,The Willow Sword

[yenhoi]

I repeat my challenge to MP and SevenStar to fight me 2 on 1.

Wimps.

:cool:

[greendragon]

Mr. Bad guy from the karate kid movie, owner of a "learned during WWII from a mysterious monk on a mountain but didn't catch his name" style karate dojo reads a magazine article about Mr. Korean Big shot that he disagrees with. So he walks into Mr. Korean's place during a class, accompanied by his senior students, and starts waving a .38 pistol around and spouting off. Mr. Korean Big shot sits quietly until they are finished and leave. The next week Mr. Korean goes to the owner of the building where Mr. Bad is renting, BUYS the building for cash and evicts Mr. Bad, Mr. Korea moves in and makes it his national headquarters.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I repeat my challenge to MP and SevenStar to fight me 2 on 1.

Wimps.

:cool:

Can I bring a weapon?

[Serpent]

You'd need one, ya *****.

[yenhoi]

Can I bring a weapon?

No firearms. Lets keep it civilized.

No US Marines either.

:eek:

[Shaolin-Do]

Take a midget on amphetamines.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Take a midget on amphetamines.

I did that the other day. Boy, the little fella was squirmy.

[Shaolin-Do]

Just put a muzzle on em.
:eek:

[Serpent]

That won't stop 'em squirming.

Besides, I like the squirming.

[KC Elbows]

What would you fight a challenge over?

I've always held that I'd fight challenges for my school, but never considered any other reasons.

[ComeToJesus]

If someone ate my Twix chocolate bar.

[David Jamieson]

well, of course there is beer, but i think any red blooded chap would rise to a beer challenge.

defending your school is the same as defending yourself really, you are true to your school and your school is true to you should be the way.

oh, a egg rolls, definitely don't touch my egg rolls or i will stick a fork in your eye.

[KC Elbows]

Kung Lek, what qualifies as "defending yourself"?

Reason I ask is I've been challenged by a former friend who is upset at me because of bad communication and decisions on both our parts, imo. Unfortunately, it is also someone who I no longer wish in my life because I think he has a negative effect on many of those around him, and I no longer wish to be around that. In any case, I feel the challenge is a recipe for disaster for both involved, as he is a decent martial artist, and so I would go all out, and it's very prone to getting out of control. It's just something that I think all involved would regret if it happened, yet I'm not sure the protocol in regards to challenge culture and all.

In that context, what would you say? I'm back and forth on this, and could use outside views.

[Kristoffer]

your options:

1) maybe you can solve the situation by talking with him and sort it out.

2) Fight him

3) just stop talking to him. Don't fight

4)Talk to him and when he doesn't look, kick him in the nuts.

[David Jamieson]

kc-

you say you no longer want to have any involvement with this person, then imo, let it go at that.

Just cut the ties to that which ails ya in other words. If it is debilitating for you to continue any form of relationship with this person, then it is good that you have recognized this and have taken measures to put an end to the relationship.

Having said that, should this person approach you with intent to commit a violent act all up and on you, then by all means it is your recourse to physically settle the disagreement. Be comfortable in the knowledge that it wasn't you who came with fists flying. You wanted to put the thing down and he wouldn't let you. What should you do?

So, in that situation, win or lose, do your best and you still have the ability to walk away and continue to let the emotion and bad charge of the relationship fade over time. Because it will, it always does.

One of the toughest things to put down in your life is a bad relationship. So many people struggle and continue in them with some misdirected or presupposed hope that it will improve. The truth of the matter is that power over another can be addicting. Especially for people with innately negative views. It reenforces their sense of self worth and makes them feel they have control of their lives when they have control of other peoples emotions. It is of course not true and in fact the person who seeks to control others is the one who is emotionally weak and is likely scarred inside from some or many bad experiences in their own life.

But for now, just refuse yourself to get hooked into more negative exchanges with the guy. Let it go and let what's said roll off your back. Clearly if you have merit, it doesn't matter two figs what anyone else says about you. That's my spin on it kc for what it's worth if anything at all to you :)

cheers

[KC Elbows]

Kristoffer,
Talking to the guy is not an option. I know him well, there is no version of "just go away and live your life" that will not engage his ego even further, and further contact will not get him out of my life any more. Four made me laugh. Two and three are the ones I'm stuck between really.

Cerebus,
that's my concern. The danger will robinson thing might be the correct option.

And cometojesus, I ate your twix bar, b@#$%!:D

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I think that there is a differene between a challenge and someone simply offering/wanting to fight you.
KCE's case seems to fall into the 2nd category.

Properly conducted challenges got rules and similar.

Somebody simply walking up to you and saying lets fight to see who is better is stupid, IMHO, and does not constitute a challenge.
Neither would I consider it a challenge if someone simply walks into our kwoon and wants to fight my Sifu.

Challenges for me are more along the lines of the ol' duels, where things are at stake.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't know all the circumstances or details on your situation, but in general it sounds like it's best to just walk away from it.

A challenge of your skills is one thing, but when hostiliies are present, now your talking something that is more of a selfdefence situation "Disguised" as a challenge. If you do decide to do it, make sure it's in a ring, at a sanctioned event under the rules put forth by the santioning body. MAKE SURE you don't stray from those rules yourself. Let him do so and get evicted form the ring.

[KC Elbows]

Rules were proposed, but the fact is, I've got family, and I'm not placing my health in another person's hands who I know just wants to fight me for such reasons, so it would be ugly, rules or no rules.

KL, your post is helpful, and you can be certain that if I were just attacked, I wouldn't agonize over my decisions, but simply get myself home in one piece.

[KC Elbows]

What's the hua hu ching?

[rogue]

You said it best...
Rules were proposed, but the fact is, I've got family, and I'm not placing my health in another person's hands who I know just wants to fight me for such reasons, so it would be ugly, rules or no rules. If he pushes the issue you have to make sure he knows that it'll be an assault on his part, because that's how you're looking at it and what you've told others.

[ninthdrunk]

KC Elbows-

It sounds like you already know what you should do, but you are thinking more about what your ego wants you to do. With the bad blood between the two of you, I am sure that you have some hostilities that you would like to get out. What better way than to kick the $#!t out of that guy? You said that you dont want this person to have any more negative effects on your life...well, getting into some fight where either one of you could suffer some serious consequences is a negative situation. I have seen a lot of friends that tried to do something very similar. They try fighting their problems away and say that when that is over its over. It never works that way. I hope that you find out what you really should do. Good luck....and if it does come down to it...kick him in the nuts...twice....that's what I do all the time and it works like a charm!

Ben

ps. just remember that a lot of fights arent over after the last blow lands. There is always the chance of this guy trying to get back at you if you kick his @$$. You said that you have a family also, think about what is best for them. This guy knows you pretty well it sounds, I am sure he will be able to think of ways to get back at you. Not that you couldnt take care of him after he does something like that, but do you really feel like dealing with the potentially bad situations?

[KC Elbows]

Rogue,
If I accepted such a challenge, I wouldn't then turn around and call the police saying it was assault. However, if he chose to just attack me, that's different. You're probably right, there's no way to step into it that isn't messy that way. Either I would have to trust him to exercise restraint that he hasn't thus far shown in this whole situation, or I would have to go at it expecting it to be a mess.

Pretty much everyone here has confirmed my thoughts on it. Got done talking to my sifu about it, and he's behind me on the rational decision. That was one of my main concerns.

Ninthdrunk,
I dunno if it was ego so much as worrying about letting my school down, which appears to be a moot point, they aren't concerned. I really don't have any angst towards this guy, I just can't afford to have him hanging around.

As an aside, the "rules" were "mma rules". As we tend to mix it up in sparring with what ground work we have, after that was brought up, I later thought to myself "Wait, is there 'mma rules'? Is it Pride rules, or ufc, or what?" Anyway, I'd love to fight under those rules FOR THE EXPERIENCE of it, but this is not exactly what I was thinking of with that, this is just weird.

On the up side, the whole experience has motivated a few of us to get together more for sparring during the week, including a friend of a friend who boxes pretty well, which will improve all of our fighting.

Anyway, thanks guys.

[Tainan Mantis]

I recently posted a similar thread on the Mantis forum which got some nice answers.

[Shaolin-Do]

I challenge KC elbows to a match of full contact qigong!
:confused:

[Ray Pina]

KC, you're in a tough situation ... be carfeul.

Don't except it because its the "MA" thing to do.

Don't not accept it out of concern, because that is a defeatest mindset and you'll regret it.

****. Sorry. Not much help.

Maybe this will make you feel better. A big a$$ ba gua sifu challenged me about a year ago and I sort of accepeted, said I needed more time ... and he was kind enough to allow it.

Time came and I was injured. I still am and missed a tournament last month and won't make the King of San Da next month either.

What can you do? I'm confident in my technique now and the sifu must have moved on to bigger fish but I suspect we'll cross hands someday. My concern is that such a big thing has been made of it that it will be more than a I got you you got me sort of thing. Too much pride on both sides.

Just keep training, control your ground.
Ray Pina

Shaolin-Do, everyone likes you here and you have tons of funny little side comments, but this is a serious matter someone came posting about.

[KC Elbows]

EF, Sd is okay, he's just reducing things to their comical base, I'd be the last person on earth to complain about that. Thanks for the advice.

And SD, everybody knows you've only done point chi kung.

[brothernumber9]

put on some 14 or 16 oz boxing gloves, get somebody or a few to witness and break it up if it gets out of hand and just go at it toughman style, no kicks, all punches. Chances are you guys will pound each other but no one will get seriously hurt and after a little while you will both get exausted and someone will say "you wanna stop?" and the other will say "you wanna stop?" and that will be it. You guys still won't like each other but you won't want to fight anymore either and there will be little enough damage to leave open the posibility of a reconciliation in the future, assuming one or both of you change.

[blooming lotus]

I totally agreee, but in saying all of that ..truoly? When is a challenge a cgallenge? I practice ninjitsu and the artt of fighting without fighting which involves physical and physycological evasion tactics..as in ..not until is absolutely neccessary..as little force is as neccessary. . even after te blow hhas been delivered if you stil have an evasion move without suffring harm or striking..what is the cosher thing to do? seriously, because if i'm seriously feeling a threat outside of school..i'm gonna hurt hurt you and am ashamed to admit I may even go for lethal?? Life or death or an nsignificant "pain" to save your life or my life imprisonment sentence? This is a serious querie and I would never field it elsewhere.

[Ray Pina]

Ninjitsu? I thought you guys cut people's throats while they slept;)

Seriously though, I met a student at a party last March and we stepped outside for a bit ... I was really impressed. I wasn't expecting much, thinking about the 1980s ninja craze. But his source of power in regard to the arms was not too different from Hsing-I, using the upper back and shoulder. I made this comment and he didn't quite understand what I meant, which to me, meant good training. Just doing it hsi way because that's how he was taught.

My only critisms was that he was not direct enough. While his evasiveness would work against most on the street, he underestimated my ability to read him cutting out to the outside, adhere and intersect his line with my fully body weight, driving off the back leg ... I had 15lbs on him at least though. And like I said, I was impressed. A man a little better trained, more experienced and my size ... very interested!

[Shaolin-Do]

Hehehe.... My .02 since this is serious. :eek:
If he disrespected you or someone close, and you know it will be a good match, may as well take it. If you know you would lose, of course dont. If you know you could win, may as well teach him a lesson. If you really feel there is no need to fight him, dont. Personally if someone pizzed me off enough and challenged me, Id be more than happy to make an example of them. Anyhow... you are the only one that can decide what's right to do. Whats right for me may be wrong for you.
;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Have him meet you at the Palace of Blue Gardens, and have your crazed body gaurds the "Crazy 88's" surround him with Katanna's.

No wait, that's a movie.

Blow it off.

[Shaolin-Do]

I will one day have sexy asian body guards. with katanas and skirts. Silk ones.
auauughauahuahaghghggg.... *homer sound*

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Have him meet you at the Palace of Blue Gardens, and have your crazed body gaurds the "Crazy 88's" surround him with Katanna's.



That would make me Lucy Liu, and clearly I'm not Lucy Liu, or I would be busy touching myself instead of posting on this here forum.

[Shaolin-Do]

Id be busy squatting over a hand mirror and giggling like a girl. Cause I would be one. A very hot asian one.
:eek:

[MasterKiller]

I will one day have sexy asian body guards. with katanas and skirts. Silk ones. Where are you going to find enough asian transvestites that also know kung fu?

[Shaolin-Do]

Speak for yourself there. I want real wimmins. I dont care if they really can defend me or not, that isnt the purpose. I can handle myself. Take a katana away from one of them if need be and use it on my own.
;)

[CaptinPickAxe]

Me and SD were just talking about Wimmins who can handle themselves. Its in the male psyche to want to be the protector of the relationship, but males cannot be there 24 hours a day 7 days a week. So, when I find the right one, I'm going to teach her to defend herself. I want her to be such a good fighter, that she could handle herself against more than one attacker, and make me work a little when we spar.

It helps to read the thread...but I don't care.

I want a band of sexy ninja-chicks @ my disposal. When I snap my fingers a grip of leather-clad wimmin should drop from the rafters.

[hskwarrior]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKCEvG40JXo&sns=fb

[Tainan Mantis]

Don't click that link

[hskwarrior]

what's wrong bruh??????

[GoldenBrain]

Great goggly moogly that was disturbing! :eek:

[pazman]

Post of the year.

BTW, Jake Mace has jumped the shark.

[Rover]

Please,someone : kill it with fire for sake of 21st century's logical developments.
SERIOUSLY?

[GeneChing]

Karate teacher fells 3 Facebook foes in Da'an dojo (http://focustaiwan.tw/news/asoc/201602180022.aspx)
2016/02/18 19:49:10

http://img1.cna.com.tw/Eng/WebEngPhotos//CEP/20160218/201602180022t0001.jpg
From the skif.org.tw website

Taipei, Feb. 18 (CNA) After a heated dispute over martial arts on Facebook, rivals from two different schools faced off against each other in a sparring match that eventually turned into a fight with three injured at a dojo in Taipei.

At the center of the fighting were 51-year-old karate instructor Chu Hsueh-chang (朱雪璋) and 27-year-old male surnamed Tsai (蔡).

The Da'an District Police office received an emergency call late Monday night that a fight had broken out at Chu's karate dojo (正心道場), and police officers were swiftly dispatched to the scene.

When the police arrived outside the karate dojo, there were more than 10 men and women gathered outside, with some alleging that a fight was taking place inside the building. The police then demanded that Chu, the owner of the establishment, open the door.

Once inside, the police discovered three injured people and called an ambulance to take them to the hospital for treatment. Two were later discharged, while one person who was more seriously injured remained in the hospital for observation.

The injured include the 27-year-old Tsai with blunt head trauma, a 31-year-old man surnamed Chan (詹) with scratches to the neck, and a 35-year-old jujitsu master named Wang Yu-lin (王毓霖) with serious stab wounds that were deemed non-life threatening.

After questioning, the Da'an police took the two parties into custody in the afternoon to gather evidence as both sides wished to press charges of assault, attempted murder and other offenses.

According to the police investigation, martial artists from two rival schools, who had recently been involved in an online dispute over martial arts, agreed to meet at the dojo managed by Chu for a sparring match late Monday evening, and a brutal brawl then ensued.

As for the recipient of this challenge match, Chu claims to be a descendant of the first Ming emperor Chu Yuan-chang (朱元璋), a community leader and a karate expert. However, early last year while leading community residents on cleaning a street drain, he engaged in a verbal confrontation with another person whom he subsequently injured using karate. According to the prosecutor's office, he was sued for assault and coercion.

The injured Wang's student alleged that after letting the three into the school, Chu locked the main door, after which he could hear his coach screaming for help. After the incident, Wang claimed that there were at least 20 to 30 people inside, all brandishing knives.

Chu countered that it was his rival who brought 20 to 30 people with him, emphasizing that he did not stab anyone and it was the other party who brought the knives. He claimed that he only let three of their group into the dojo and then locked the rest out.

Regarding Wang's knife wounds, Chu told the reporters that no one cut him, rather he injured himself from wildly flailing the weapon. Tsai's response was "justice will be served in a court of law."

"I am now a dignified community leader and a martial artist, how could I go on the Internet and agree to a battle with these people," Chu said to the media. Instead, he claimed that they provoked him, insisting that not only was it the other side that brought knives, but also they were the ones to attack first.

As the two sides have diametrically opposing accounts, the police will investigate further to clarify the facts of the case.

(By Liu Jian-pang and Keoni Everington)
Enditem/BL

'I wouldn't a dun it, but 'e 'ad a knife.' ;)

[-N-]

Regarding Wang's knife wounds, Chu told the reporters that no one cut him, rather he injured himself from wildly flailing the weapon.

"Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!" :D

[wiz cool c]

The man/woman is a qualified teacher of kung fu if they have a known linage and studied under a certified instructor and were certified themselves under that qualified teacher. Whether that teacher is a good fighter depends on that individual. To go challenging a teacher to fight to prove themselves is foolish in my opinion. What you do with the system you learn is up to you. If you learn hung gar or tai chi…. Doesn’t matter. It is how you train with it, practice with a partner, do drills, spar, hit pads. If you want to prove you can fight go enter an amateur MMA competition, or grappling competition, there are plenty of them out there, instead of challenging a let’s say 50 year old instructor to a sparring match.

And you can take part in the schools sparing class and spar with the students. Can you imagine like going into a boxing gym, and a young meat head type guy asking the 55 year old coach to spar to prove boxing is real. Rather he would train there and spar with the younger boxers in training. There is a right and wrong way to do things. My Judo coach back in the states is like 70 now, I cant imagine the first day of judo class I go up to him and challenge him to prove his judo is good.I take part in the class and spar with the student. Respect ,discipline and all that stuff, remember it is a part of martial arts not just fight fight fight.

[GeneChing]

This isn't particularly martial, unless you think porn is a martial art....and some of you probably do. :p

It's just really funny.


Oklahoma man challenges neighbor to knife fight with porn magazines taped to him (http://www.4029tv.com/article/oklahoma-man-challenges-neighbor-to-knife-fight-with-porn-magazines-taped-to-him/13448744)
KHBS Updated: 11:50 PM CST Nov 7, 2017
National Desk Staff

https://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/images/5a01c14ded1a0-1510119090.jpg
SOURCE: Pontotoc County Sheriff's Office

ADA, Ok. —
A man from Oklahoma was arrested Sunday after police found him with a knife in each hand and several pornographic magazines taped to him stomach to protect him, according to The Ada News.

Donald Gene Gaither, 49, told police he was in "survival mode" after he allegedly tried to start a fight with a neighbor. Police said Gaither was angry because he thought he was being kicked out his trailer park.

The neighbor called police when Gaither began waving knives and telling him "to come out and get some." Gaither was charged with assault with a dangerous weapon and possession of an offensive weapon.

Police said Gaither was "slightly intoxicated" when deputies found him with the knives in each hand and pornographic magazines taped to him stomach, according to KXII. Gaither told deputies he'd been in prison, and magazines were a way to protect yourself in a fight.