wing chun weapons

[madlilpimp]

My sifu recently stated teaching escrima with wing chun. Ive noticed alot of clubs teach wing chun together with escrima .Wing chun already already has its own weapon forms .So i was i thinking are these people deciding to teach escrima because wing chun has a poor weapons system .Does anyone know how how the baat cham do form compare's to escrima.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by madlilpimp
My sifu recently stated teaching escrima with wing chun. Ive noticed alot of clubs teach wing chun together with escrima .Wing chun already already has its own weapon forms .So i was i thinking are these people deciding to teach escrima because wing chun has a poor weapons system .Does anyone know how how the baat cham do form compare's to escrima.
I've never heard of a recorded instance of combat between Wing Chun knives and Escrima swords, but there is no reason I would have.

That was to give an answer (or perhaps a nonanswer to your question.)

In my lineage of Wing Chun, the weapons sets are there to train the hands. We consider Wing Chun to be strictly an empty hands system.

As for learning or teaching Escrima weapons, it sounds like a logical add-on to self-defense to me. JKD makes this connection.

Sticks or knives magnify one's destructive potential. Personally, in a street situation, I'd use a weapon if my opponent had one or if I was out-numbered and couldn't escape. If I was up against some ordinary hot-head, I'd deal with it with my hands, again, if I couldn't escape.

Regards,

[Mckind13]

JW

I have to say that I think I disagree with you regarding the purpose of the weapons. I would however like to know how you qualify "the weapons sets are there to train the hands. "

Can you explain what you mean as far as hands and how they are trained by the weapons?

David

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

You might want to ask rene, I belive there is a story about Sum Nung vs. an escrimadore.

[rubthebuddha]

the two work well together conceptually and in practice, provided it's one of the more stripped-down forms of escrima (like latosa).

having never done wc weapons, i can't make any statements regarding them. i do know escrima teaches you to be able to use just about anything as a weapon, and that in itself is very important.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Mckind13
JW

I have to say that I think I disagree with you regarding the purpose of the weapons. I would however like to know how you qualify "the weapons sets are there to train the hands. "

Can you explain what you mean as far as hands and how they are trained by the weapons?

David
Hi David,

Remember that I am speaking of my understanding of the Leung Sheung lineage under which I train.

Using the same principles as with we train the hands, we train the weapons to develop what we call "long bridge energy," long and lasting power. Of course, if you're on a red boat and fending off an attack, picking up a pole or a pair of knives would be handy for defense.

As for using the weapons, Leung Sheung obviously meant them to be used for real situations. He refused to teach the knives to anyone he didn't believe would use them in real world circumstances. Ken Chung adheres to this same teaching principle.

Regards,

[anerlich]

My personal opinion is that Filipino systems are easier to tailor to a wider variety of weapons, and particularly to small knives and using the "alive" hand. Also, unlike most chinese and other systems, they start with weapons and finish with unarmed combat and thus on the whole spend MUCH more time training with weapons.

But also I feel that most Kung Fu systems (not just WC) adapt their empty hand systems to the use of weapons better than many others. like Japanese systems where your karate is different to your bojutsu and different to your kendo, etc.

[YongChun]

In the early 1980's we had a good Escrima teacher at our club. Back then we trained the Wing Chun knives for combat, practicing first against the wooden Japanese sword and then using sticks padded with foam and taped to simulate the knives for a type of sparring. One person in our club was also a fencing teacher. He fashioned some knives out of a stiff kind of foam using some wood for the part you grip.

I tried a match using the knives against the single Escrima stick. The result was that I got whacked in the head real good. Even though the Escrima stick was padded with foam, it drew some blood. Then the fencing teacher tried. His footwork was much quicker than mine. His skill in the knives was less than the skill of the Escrima teacher with his stick however in a match it proved to be a draw. It looked like simultaneous mutual annihilation. So from that I extrapolated that someone proficient in the Wing Chun knives could be a good enough match for an Escrimador.

I think it is not so practical and there is not that much interest to train the Wing Chun knives for combat. As a result much of the skill may have been lost that Southern stylists used to possess. However here and there there are probably still a few people that train the knives for combat. Robert Chu told me a long time ago that Hawkins Cheung was/is pretty good with the knives.

In the Wing Chun world, some have added Escrima to their repertoire but have neglected to develop the skill with their own weapons. This is a bit of a shame.

As to which is really better, it's hard to say. Depends on who is wielding the weapons. I would probably put my money on the Escrimador these days because they spend as much time with their weapons as Wing Chun people spend with their empty hand Chi Sau.

The most practical weapon other than the gun may be the short combat knife. But when talking about weapons there are no more rules. Once you start on weapons then anything goes from AK47's to acid and Bombs. So I presume we are talking about the ART of it all and in that context some comparison can be made between Escrima/Arnis and Wing Chun. Technically Escrima seems much richer in technique and training procedures than does Wing Chun. Then again in a real weapons fight, winning movements are probably quite simple.

On second thought I may put my money on the Gurkhas bladed weapons skill. A Reader's Digest from many many years ago reported on the skill of these people. In one encounter Three German's who had the Gurkha at close range gunpoint were killed, having underestimated the threat.

I think technically Escrima and Wing Chun weapons use are different with conflicting body mechanics. In fencing a champion in foil is not usually a champion in Epee or Sabre. So even though to the non-expert the three blades look almost the same, technically suble differences in use make a large difference in the result. The difference between Escrima and Wing Chun knives are even greater.

Since blade and stickwork is taught first in Escrima, I would say the same can be done in Wing Chun. The pole and knives can be taught first. If one really wants to be good with Wing Chun knives then probably it would pay to start training those at a much earlier stage than 10 years after one start Wing Chun (depending on the starting age of the practitioner of course).

One thing about the match between a single stick and a knife is that the weight of the weapons should be matched in order to get a similar speed. But against a heavy sword the Baat Jam Do need to also be heavy otherwise the sword can cut right through. If one is super skillful, I suppose then there would never be a clash of blades but if this can be affected in reality, who knows?

This is just my very simplistic analyis.

[yuanfen]

Hi Ray- Good post.

Some thoughts FWIW and very much IMO.

1. Weapons are just instruments- they can be used for different purposes depending on user and intention.

2. Re- Ip man's usage of weapons- he apparently showed usage here and there- but as far as sustained point by point training
in their usage- he taught very very few.(See cooroboration from WSL in David Peterson's book. WSL shared his form with several others. Ho kam Ming is another person who learned the full Ip man version from Ip man. Knowing sequences is not enough-the details do matter. Some have preserved knowing the fighting usage of the wing chun weapons.

Corinna my kung fu sister(Little Raven- she has a website) a sifu Fong student makes bjd-s out of tough artificial material - cutting board like stuff-
which can be used for two person work.

3. Learning the short and the long wing chun weapon with the right footwork makes for great adaptibility to anything in one's hands. The double bjd among other things teaches balance and two hand coordination and lots and lots of very mobile footwork.
Same for the kwan.. You can fight with one weapon.

4 I have never felt the need for learning the Filipino arts- wing chun training and my back ground has served me well. I feel comfortable with escrima sticks etc.

5. As i understand it the WT folks added escrima because bjd training comes late in their curricu;um and they wanted something practical earlier.

6. BTW- I have attended a guro Rene Latosa seminar. he is good- but I stick to wing chun. My wc paradigm works fine for me.

7. Right on the Gurkhas. But there a lot of wannabe Gurkhas
even in armies..
The real ones are from some key clans- specially the Gurungs and the Thappas--- intergenerational traditions and teaching. I have had the good fortune of having had two Gurungs as teachers- the first guarded our compound during civil strife. The second was in the Indian army. In 1947 the Indian Army and the british army
divided up the gurkha regiments among themselves. There is a slice of the northern part of my home state which is part of traditional Gurkha land. Yung Gurkha boys train their hands and legs first - before graduating to weapons.
The Brits used the Gurkhas against the Sikhs in the 19th and early 20th century, against the germans and Japanese in WW2,
border patrol along the PRC/HK., Against the Argentines in the Falkland war, peacekeeping in Kosovo and Afghanistan. They are being abndoned gradually by the Brits with shrinking usage- transfer of HK etc. The Indians used them aginst Pakistan in 1948, 1965 and in 2000 in Kargil, in the liberation of Bangladesh
in 72 and later briefly in peace keeping in Sri lanka

joy

[Tom Kagan]

As a rule of thumb, the younger the system of martial art, the less "hand-to-hand" weapons it has. However, this does not automatically infer a given system (such as Ving Tsun) younger than another (such as Escrima) is lacking. It only reflects two simple and practical realities: 1) All martial arts throughout history decendant from the Military introduce weapons almost immediately along with heavy conditioning and maximum force generation (Ving Tsun does not fit this pattern), and 2) Ving Tsun was developed during the age of gunpowder.

Though Escrima is scarcely older than Ving Tsun, those relative few years do make a difference. Additionally where Escrima was developed was also more isolated from modern weapon systems for a much longer time.

Still, it is a rather far leap to get to the conclusion of a deficiency in any one thing based upon something else entirely which may or may not be popular within a given martial arts school. I don't see how such a surface comparison as the one you made would be any different in this regard than if you did the same in any other field of study.

Ving Tsun weapon theory and application compare quite favorably to other arts. My SiHing, John Cheng, was the one who demonstrated this to Dan Inosanto by developing a relationship and exchanging ideas "the hard way" using nothing but Escrima's weapon cache. It was these sessions which prompted Dan Inosanto to also become a student of Moy Yat.

"When you control the hands and feet, there are no secrets." -- Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit.

[yuanfen]

Inosanto should not be underestmated- he has squared off (interacted)with two well known wing chun sifus who think(thought) that they know the bjd.
Never mind the names. A wing chun student of mine also studied with Inosanto and very much respects him- and is certified in several arts including grappling from the academy.

[Mckind13]

Hello all,

I have read the discussion above and want to chime in.

Weapons train more then hands!

The Knife, while a reflection of the hands contains methods for training and applying the hands linked and delinked with the body. It also trains a different footwork that might be described as chasing and crashing methods that are not wholly present in the handsets. Additionally it teaches a fluid sequence of attacking and killing the opponent. A Butchers mindset if you will that adds to the combat effectiveness of the art by adding a mental cruelty needed for combat.

The Pole teaches body usage above all else. Moving a 9 foot pole around like a toothpick requires the perfect integration of body and structure. The pole also teaches angles of attack, patience in lining up the position and strike, it teaches strategy because the attacks need to be precise and accurate, as the pole does not make two sounds.

In regards to escrima, I began learning Mark Wiely's (SP) integrated Escrima methods and they are very effective.
I would have to be sharp and on the ball to deal well with them vs. my smaller BJD. On the other hand, I did quite well stick on stick with some more experienced people using my sense of Wing Chun timing and the basic cuts I had learned.

Cheers
David

[Tom Kagan]

As some others do too, Dan Inosanto has the ability to look at a given situation and/or application and immediately "dissect it" into its true nature to get at the core essence of what is at hand.

What I was trying to say, perhaps unclearly before, was that when Dan Inosanto observed John Cheng, a Ving Tsun practitioner who, at the time, had no training whatsoever in Escrima or its weapons, start to use weapons foreign to him in a way which showed John Cheng also understood the nature of what he was holding, it impressed Dan Inosanto enough to investigate the methods which led John Cheng to this knowledge solely via the art of Ving Tsun - an art which, at the time, my future SiHing supposedly "knew" already.

If there was even a hint of underestimating Dan Inosanto in my last post, that was not my intention. I have nothing but respect and a bit of awe for his knowledge, skill, and accomplishments. I'm sorry if I caused any confusion.

[yuanfen]

No confusion Tom. I understood your point and agree.

[reneritchie]

Sandman2-

Just a small story. The escrima guy, in his 30s, I think, mentioned to my late sigung how much more realistic Escrima weapons were. My sigung, around 70 something at the time, had been drinking a wee bit, and offered to give the guy a go with the sticks (Sum Nung loved fighting). The young guy didn't do so well.

John, David,

In my experience, you're both right. The base boxing lays the foundation for weapons which then polish the boxing, and development becomes iterative. If you need to use weapons, they're there, and if you don't, the boxing has benefitted either way, both from the raw material in the sets/methods, and the training of cultivating that material (and more to the point, a certain revelation of brutal clarity).

Someone who's put their work into the hands and the weapons is usually pretty darn devastating with both.

[PaulH]

I recommend our forum members to check out two articles on the Butterfly knives and the Dragon Pole at this link:

http://garylamwingchun.com/articles.html

They discuss in details concerning the WC weapon training methodologies as well as many interesting insights, usage, and purposes in the modern era. Everytime I reread them I see something new. This will flesh out nicely with what David and Rene discussed above. Have fun!

Regards,

[Temujinn]

My CQC instructor a few years ago, was very pleased when he started teaching me to hear I had even the most limited experience with WingChun(which I have very limited expereince)
He had some training with it in his past, but conceptually he was a different kind of martial artist. Escrima being one the things he taught, a beatiful art, they compliment each other very well, loose and mobile, requiring great root work, explosive motion. Escrima I found (in my again limited experience) to be more aggressive, that I believe is the compliment, escrima seems a little helpless with out the weapons, WingChun, the weapons teach the hands, they are merely an accesory. I think WingChun is really such a powerful art that it compliments just about anything so well that one is deceived into thinking it is missing something, because it seems to "complete" anything.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by madlilpimp
So i was i thinking are these people deciding to teach escrima because wing chun has a poor weapons system. These people are deciding to teach escrima probably because their own understanding of the Wing Chun weapons is lacking. If that is the case then their understanding of the first 3 forms is lacking. If this is the case their Wing Chun sucks.

[Vyvial]

I made friends like that too when I first joined

[anerlich]

These people are deciding to teach escrima probably because their own understanding of the Wing Chun weapons is lacking. If that is the case then their understanding of the first 3 forms is lacking. If this is the case their Wing Chun sucks.

A doesn't imply B and B doesn't necessarily imply C.

Maybe they DO understand the WC weapons better than others, and found that they actually ARE lacking, or at least aren't perfect?

The Modernist attitude some people have to MA is getting old. It IS okay to take your WC blinkers off and look around now and then. You won't go to hell or lose the WC magic.

There are plenty of styles with something to offer. Some can actually complement each other, believe it or not.

Now, play nice with the other kids, OK?

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
There are plenty of styles with something to offer.I won't dispute that.
Some can actually complement each other, believe it or not. Sure, but Wing Chun isn't one of those that needs complementing unless you're lacking in its understanding. It's reasonable. Bruce Lee did it, and for the same reasons.

[anerlich]

Sure, but Wing Chun isn't one of those that needs complementing unless you're lacking in its understanding.

That is an opinion. you are entitled to it.


Bruce Lee did it, and for the same reasons.

Bruce Lee IMO would have explored other arts and created JKD even if he had learned the entire system from Yip Man. Bruce is actaully a better example AGAINST your argument than for it.

[anerlich]

Keng Geng - you have the same location as WhippingHand and Enter the Whip.

I wished you a happy birthday and everything. Pity your attitude hasn't improved.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
That is an opinion. you are entitled to it. More like the pattern that exists in martial arts. Not everyone can know Wing Chun, just because they train it.


Bruce Lee IMO would have explored other arts and created JKD even if he had learned the entire system from Yip Man. Would have, might have, did not. His history falls in line with the pattern. In fact, he started the pattern. Thus, the state the whole martial arts world is in now. Quasi martial artists doing whatever the hell.

[Ng Mui]

If I would to add another weapon to the Wing Chun system it would be a gun, not escrima sticks.

[Vyvial]

"Not everyone can know Wing Chun, just because they train it." <-- very true

"Would have, might have, did not. His history falls in line with the pattern. In fact, he started the pattern. Thus, the state the whole martial arts world is in now. Quasi martial artists doing whatever the hell." <--- Also very true.

Many people believe that advanced stages of WC is all principle not technique which is what Bruce (you know, like water) was looking for, being able to adapt your WC in any situation because you set no limits on it. A beginner and intermediate level WC guy can't do this and is limited to the basic and weak fighting framework that is WC. Which means easy frustration and the feeling that they must add to the system or change it. Very few people are willing to really learn the system.

[anerlich]

If I would to add another weapon to the Wing Chun system it would be a gun, not escrima sticks.

I see what you are getting at, but IMO the benefits (real or otherwise, and of whatever quality) of learning weapons such as the swords, pole, or Filipino weapons are that they are adaptable to improvised weapons you might find in a defense situation.

Kind of hard to improvise a gun. Also, where I live a citizen cannot legally carry one for defence purposes.

I'm not sure how often you find two 12-18" blades with hooks attached lying around in gutters, on the floors of bars, etc., but at least the BJD techniques are adaptable to short impact weapons ... as are FMA techniques.

It's up to each to decide whether with different arts 2+2=5 or 2+2=3.


A beginner and intermediate level WC guy can't do this and is limited to the basic and weak fighting framework that is WC. Which means easy frustration and the feeling that they must add to the system or change it. Very few people are willing to really learn the system.

I don't understand what you mean. If the system is unsound at beginner or intermediate levels, how does it become awesome at advanced levels if the foundation is weak? Wasn't WC meant to be a system you could become proficient with in a short time? When should you start reaching the "advanced" levels? 5,10,15 years? How long do you have to practice before you can find out whether your "belief", that the advanced, principle based levels were the ant's pants, was correct or not?

I tihnk many people are willing to really learn the system. I know more than a few, including some that now practice other styles AS WELL. Some even do that and then move on to really learn other systems as well.

The opportunity for anyone to put the WC weapons in their rightful place is there for the taking. Attend a Dog Brothers gathering and show them how clueless they are. Make sure your medical insurance is up to date first, though.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Ng Mui
If I would to add another weapon to the Wing Chun system it would be a gun, not escrima sticks. How would that relate to the previous forms' attributes? What would it actually add to the improvement of your training?


Attend a Dog Brothers gathering and show them how clueless they are. Make sure your medical insurance is up to date first, though.Dog Brothers? They're a joke when it comes to weapons.

[anerlich]

Dog Brothers? They're a joke when it comes to weapons.

Tell them that.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
Tell them that. They know. By they I mean the head dog, or whatever.

[AndyM]

Originally posted by Keng Geng
Dog Brothers? They're a joke when it comes to weapons.

I was enjoying this thread until I came across this comment.

You're not serious surely, from what basis do you make this statement.

I've trained with Marc Denny, and I know what these guys do.

Go see them, they'll give you a choice of weapons; single stick, double stick, Bokken, Staff you name it. You can then fight full contact with no armour. Don't worry about insurance, as anyone who gets hurt bad might get left up an alley for the anonymously notified ambulance service to find.

Most WC people cross training Eskrima are doing the Latosa system. I mean no disrespect to these people, but there's a whole world of FMA systems. I learned the simplified systems introduced into JKD 16 years or so ago, latterly picking up on the more complex Doce Pares system. i've personally dismissed most of all that as fancy stick twirling, and hope to ride the wave as DBMA branches out.

There are things to be learned in FMA from WC and vice versa IMHO. The footwork is similar, and double stick sure highlights whether your hands are being used in optimal sequence or not.

Do yourself a big favour, doesn't matter how you do it; beg, steal borrow, blag a DBMA tape from one of their open days.

DBMA is to FMA, what UFC was to WC. A wake up call.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by AndyM
DBMA is to FMA, what UFC was to WC. A wake up call. I'm happy for you that you're all impressed, but DBMA is to FMA what JKD is to kung fu, and that's not a good thing. There is better FMA out there.

[AndyM]

Originally posted by Keng Geng
I'm happy for you that you're all impressed, but DBMA is to FMA what JKD is to kung fu, and that's not a good thing. There is better FMA out there.

Nice specific response to the content of my post.

Better FMA out there???

Better for what?

What experience do you have?

What exactly is your interaction with DBMA, I'll be sure to verify it with them directly.

Pray Tell. :D

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by AndyM
Nice specific response to the content of my post. No response necessary, or have you not learned that in your 16 years.


Better for what? Exactly.


What experience do you have? What experience do you have that legitimizes the DB's?

[AndyM]

Dear Troll,

I've been training longer than 16 years, I'm 36.

Why don't you answer my questions, and then I'll consider answering yours, however inane they prove to be. :p

[Knifefighter]

Keng Geng-

There is a Dog Bros gathering next month.
Care to participate?

Island Dog

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by AndyM
I've been training longer than 16 years, I'm 36. And that bears significance in what way?


Oriniginally posted by Knifefighter
There is a Dog Bros gathering next month. Care to participate?Like I said, "There is better FMA out there."

[KenWingJitsu]

Troll name changes, but the troll remains the same.

[AndyM]

Originally posted by Keng Geng
And that bears significance in what way?


I don't know. you seemed to think it did when you said-


No response necessary, or have you not learned that in your 16 years.

The only question I see as being relevant here, is the one I already asked-


What exactly is your interaction with DBMA, I'll be sure to verify it with them directly?


If there are indeed better FMA out there, then I'm sure the boys in the Kennel Club would love to hear from you. Can you name any systems, and/or explain why they are better?

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by AndyM
If there are indeed better FMA out there, then I'm sure the boys in the Kennel Club would love to hear from you.
Like I said, the founder is fully aware.


Can you name any systems, and/or explain why they are better? What makes some Wing Chun schools better than others?

[reneritchie]

We have a Dog Brother in Montreal. Philip 'Sled Dog' Gelinas. He's an old timer, very high ranked in Kajukenbo, under Dan Inosanto, and Nova Uniao purple belt in BJJ.

While it's not my cup of tea (I quite liked what little I saw of Illustrismo), I won't disrespect them or what they go through. There are politics enough in WCK to last more than a lifetime.

Anerlich - Can't you just carry a Croc around in OZ? ;)

[old jong]

quote:A beginner and intermediate level WC guy can't do this and is limited to the basic and weak fighting framework that is WC. Which means easy frustration and the feeling that they must add to the system or change it. Very few people are willing to really learn the system....And....

"I don't understand what you mean. If the system is unsound at beginner or intermediate levels, how does it become awesome at advanced levels if the foundation is weak? Wasn't WC meant to be a system you could become proficient with in a short time? When should you start reaching the "advanced" levels? 5,10,15 years? How long do you have to practice before you can find out whether your "belief", that the advanced, principle based levels were the ant's pants, was correct or not?"
---------------------------------------------------

Yes,the basics of Wing Chun are easy to understand and can be effective in a short period of times with some proper training but...We have to work for every small notch toward high level.Many will stay at a very basic SLT level even if they "know" all the system. There are many levels in understanding and...Being able to perform how to stick,redirect,control,neutralise etc...Not talking about various timings and strategies that will be effective only with the proper level.It is a long process to really learn Wing Chun.

[AndyM]

Originally posted by Keng Geng

Like I said, the founder is fully aware. ]

Of what?


What makes some Wing Chun schools better than others?

I wouldn't know, I tend to concentrate on my own studies, and not those of others.

[Keng Geng]

Done. Case closed.

[AndyM]

Ruuuun Forrest, ruuuuuun! :D

[anerlich]

Done. Case closed.

I hope for your sake you don't ever have to represent yourself in a courtroom.

OJ,

I agree with you. My issue was with Vyvial, who seemed to me to imply that WC is crap at basic levels but somehow gets magically transmuted from this into something awesome later on. Turning lead into gold, water into wine, or making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I might have misunderstood him and was requesting clarification.

[old jong]

I'm sure he was not meaning that.I too had to read this thing a few times.It is why I felt the need to put my 2cents in it!...;)

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by anerlich
I hope for your sake you don't ever have to represent yourself in a courtroom.Anerlich, you're opinions are always a blessing.

[anerlich]

Anerlich, you're opinions are always a blessing.

It takes individuals such as yourself to bring out the best in me. :cool:

[russellsherry]

hi guy"S havineing trained in both arnis and wing chun , they both have many things in common , and as wing chun weopons are more in line with tradtion the escima stricks and methords are more in line with modern methords of combat as far as the dog brotherS skill is concerened i would not like to get n a fight with mark denny guro he is a fine arnis teacher peace russell sherry

[Vio]

The Dog brothers are certainly good at marketing themselves. I havent been too impressed from what ive seen them do.

I think stick fighting is a waste of time the skills learnt dont translate well to bladed weapons and where are you gonna pick up sticks in the city?

[anerlich]

The Dog brothers are certainly good at marketing themselves.

Like many Wing Chun/Tsun organisations, the Gracies, ...


I havent been too impressed from what ive seen them do.

Opinions vary, as do those regarding the merits or otherwise of various systems of WC.


the skills learnt dont translate well to bladed weapons

And the reverse is just as true (or false depending on your opinion). The way you cut with a blade does not translate well to the way you use an impact weapon.


where are you gonna pick up sticks in the city?

LOL, sure, you won't find anything resembling a stick (garden stake, broom handle, car aerial, 2x4, walking stick, umbrella, tree branch) in the city, but the gutters are full of sharpened butterfly swords with hooks on them just waiting for WC guys under duress to pick them up.

[KingMonkey]

I think stick fighting is a waste of time the skills learnt dont translate well to bladed weapons
That has to be one of the stupidest most ill informed things I have read here and bearing in mind Keng Gengs comments that's up against some pretty stiff competition.

I dont mean to be rude but stick and knife fighting use similar skill sets and the fact that you would post the above suggests you are talking about something of which you have no real knowledge or experience.


AndyM I PM'd you. Cheers

[wentwest]

Originally posted by Vio
The Dog brothers are certainly good at marketing themselves. I havent been too impressed from what ive seen them do.

I think stick fighting is a waste of time the skills learnt dont translate well to bladed weapons and where are you gonna pick up sticks in the city?

Vio,

No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about here. In the two styles of Escrima/Arnis that I have trained in - Pekiti-Tiirsia and Bahala Na (Giron style), the sticks are treated like edged weapons. The strikes are very carefully and specifically designed from a bio-mechanical standpoint to be executed exactly as they would be with say a bolo or machette type of bladed weapon (or baat jaam do for that matter). While the sticks are,in fact, impact weapons by nature, training with them DOES translate to bladed weapons well indeed.

As Anerlich points out, any number of items readily available on the streets can be used as improvised "sticks."

GM Leo Giron while serving in the U.S. Army during WWII, spent a year on an ilsand in the Phillipines, on a mission to covertly gather information in preparation for the pending Marines landing. In this year he and his small group of men (all escrimadors) faced numerous Japanese soldiers and defeated them all in man to man combat with their bolos and sticks against the Japanese soldier's swords.

I'd say this is but one good example of FMA's practicality in combat situations.

And finally, not that they need defending, but the Dog Brothers are fine escrimadors.

[Vio]

I know these filipino systems claim to be able to easily interchange between stick, sword, staff, knife,garden stake, broom handle and so on. with no change in technique.
If you're used to fighting with sticks and tried to wield a sword with stick fighting techniques you get killed.
You see the body mechanics of wielding all these weapons is different, the methodologies are different, the footwork used for each weapon is different.
Even the the training is diffferent, if you want to fight with a knife train with a knife not an escrima stick and so on.
There are systems that train both the stick and the sword (they teach different mechanics for each) however im strictly referring to stick fighters here.
Come tell how can the inherent impact blocking, grabbing and checking stick techniques work on bladed weapons, they dont. There are too many motions that just dont transfer to other weapons.
From my experiance you can level down but you can't level up. That is if you train a sword art you "could" try adapt the stick but not the reverse.

[KingMonkey]

From my experiance you can level down but you can't level up. That is if you train a sword art you can use the stick but not the reverse.
I'm interested to know what this experience consists of. Two people who have some experience of training stick and knife fighting have directly contradicted your previous comments.

I make it a habit not to talk about something I dont have personal experience of so I wont talk about going from a stick to sword. Your original claim was that skill with a stick didnt translate to bladed weapons.
You are wrong.
Here are the similarities between my stick and knife training.

Body mechanics - same
Footwork - same
Tactics, zoning, range control - same
Bare hand traps, movements - same
Drills - same

There are a few differences in the motions you describe with the stick and knife, you wouldnt try a stab/pick with a stick, or try to eviscerate someone with a stick but these are small potatoes.

[wentwest]

Originally posted by Vio
I know these filipino systems claim to be able to easily interchange between stick, sword, staff, knife,garden stake, broom handle and so on. with no change in technique.
If you're used to fighting with sticks and tried to wield a sword with stick fighting techniques you get killed.

- Tell that to the late GM Leo Giron. What you are misunderstanding here is that the "stick fighting techniques" are bladed weapon techniques adapted to sticks!


Originally posted by Vio
You see the body mechanics of wielding all these weapons is different, the methodologies are different, the footwork used for each weapon is different.

- You are completely wrong. The biomechanics, the methodologies and the footwork are exactly the same.


Originally posted by Vio
Even the the training is diffferent, if you want to fight with a knife train with a knife not an escrima stick and so on.

- Essentially wrong again. Short knives are different than sticks, but swords, Bolo's and Barongs (basically nothing more than long knives) are very similar to sticks. We do train with knives (live and training blades for different training objectives) for knife training purposes. Training with a stick is an EXCELLENT way to train the use of a Bolo or a Barong


Originally posted by Vio
There are systems that train both the stick and the sword (they teach different mechanics for each) however im strictly referring to stick fighters here.

- The systems I have experience with - again Pekiti-Tirsia and Bahala Na - do NOT teach different mechanics for stick and sword. What systems are you referring to? Instead of making statements with vague references, tell us exactly what systems you have experience with.


Originally posted by Vio
Come tell how can the inherent impact blocking, grabbing and checking stick techniques work on bladed weapons, they dont.

- They work just fine. For one thing, if you were fighting with a stick against a sword, you would use techniques suited for that type of engagement - all taught within the various FMA systems. In other words, you would tend to strike the arm/hands rather than blocking a committed strike by the attacker with the sword. That's something also trained in stick against stick, but it obviously becomes a more primary tactic with stick against sword. As for checking, checking is checking. I don't care what kind of weapon you weild (stick or bladed). The checking hand checks the weapon gripping HAND of the opponent (and sometimes the elbow of the weapon wielding arm)... it does NOT check the opponent's weapon directly (bladed or otherwise).


Originally posted by Vio
There are too many motions that just dont transfer to other weapons.

- Simply not true.


Originally posted by Vio
From my experiance you can level down but you can't level up. That is if you train a sword art you "could" try adapt the stick but not the reverse.

What exactly IS your experience with regard to stick and bladed weapon training? I would like to hear specifics... not vague references. I'm sure we all would actually.

[Vio]

Originally posted by wentwest


What exactly IS your experience with regard to stick and bladed weapon training? I would like to hear specifics... not vague references. I'm sure we all would actually.
I have been witness to actuall knife attacks in Africa they dont look much like stick fighting although this could have something to do with culture.

I have studied Rapid Arnis and Escrima.

I dont agree with you. If you believe that you can use these weapons with no change in technique, thats ok.
Everyone is entitled to their own views, you'll find that i am not the only one who shares these views. If you read the work of Guro Mark V. Wiley and other accomplished teachers you will see what I mean.

[wentwest]

Now you've written a couple of things that are correct.

1. We are all entitled to different views.

and

2. We don't agree.

That's cool.

Never heard of Rapid Arnis before. I googled it, and it appears to be European based organization, so that's probably why since I live in the U.S.

I would direct you to page 70 of "The Secrets of Giron Arnis Escrima," written by GM Antonio E. Somera, published by Tuttle Publishing.

At the bottom of that page (which is the first page of Chapter 6: The Twelve Strikes of Estilo De Fondo), you will find two sentences that support my statements quite clearly and succinctly.

I do not wish to infringe on copyrighted material, so I won't quote the book exactly here.

In essence it is a reminder that although we practice with a stick, it represents a bolo (or machete), and one must always keep this in mind and distinguish the front blade, and back section of the stick in our practice.

Incidentally, Mark V. Wiley is quoted on the back of this book praising it, and the thorough job GM Tony Somera did in documenting the philosophy and techniques of Giron Arnis Escrima (Bahala NA).

Oh yeah... I have read quite a few books by Mark V. Wiley (I have three on my bookshelf at this moment), and I don't see what you mean.

[anerlich]

Dan Inosanto has it in "The FMA" that most of the footwork, stances, etc., translate across the full range of weaponry.

Personally, I can't see the merit of systems that require you to change your movement patterns totally when moving from weapon to weapon.

Hock Hochheim advises working out with impact weapons as well as blades; if you try to cut or slice with a stick through habit, it may be ineffective; I would advise any butterfly sword trainee to occasionally train with sticks and use a "smashing" type action rather than always training with the slicing movement with lots of wrist taught when using the blades.

"Bashing" with a light, sharp blade, as opposed to something like a broadsword or axe, is inefficient; you can do much more damage and achieve quicker blood loss with curved slashes.

Although a good solid stab to the right target with body weight behind will work with just about anything.

[russellsherry]

hi guys, i tend to think , king monkey an westwing are right,
more later peace russellsherry

[russellsherry]

h guys, vio if you train , a figure, eight technique, with the sticks what is the difference, , doing the same technique. with the blade , except you take the blade more seriosly, hand postion body postion stance,, the triangle footwork are the same, also stck fighting is not just bashing each other it teaches the important things like where a blade might come from and i like some of the disarm"S as well, so while i respect your veiw , i think you might be wrong here and having seen marc deny in paul vunacks video i think he is a very fine arnis guro peace russellsherry

[russellsherry]

hi andy m , i aggree with you , marc denny is a fine arnis teacher,also i trian is arnis not to be inosanto, bit to have, knowledge in where the blade comes"S from, if you know that , you might have a chance , against him. while i think is very good
for a street fighting situation no one art is perfect , also was desined, to be effective , for the street both art"s have many things in common my guro even has a sort of chi sau with the stick though not done in the same manner it promotes being senative to the acttack like in chi sau i think we should be openminded on other teachers and their aways if someone said escrima was a joke in cebu or manila , i don"t think they wold be to happy with what would come , their way also having just , trained with danny inosanto just to name drop at a semminar in melbourne danny belives in a common martial arts thread all arts have many thngs "S in common and i go along with guro inosantos veiw peace russellsherry

[sungkiti]

The Dog Brothers are very good at what they do. It is so easy to sit on the sidelines and comment on those in there who are attempting to test the skills and knowledge they have learnt. It is like when you are watching a world title boxing fight and some yobbo in the crowd is full of advice and talk. It is very simple if they are not that good, then you should have no problems handling them. Right?

Many masters of FMA teach that the stick is in fact a sword or another edged weapon. This is true, but there are modifications that need to be made in order for this to be any where near effective. These modifications include stance and weight transfer, generation of power among others. When it comes to edged weapon work their is also the bio dynamics of cutting. If you look at the kali ilustrisimo system of the late Antonio Ilustrisimo, you will see what I am saying, It is truly a sword system and in order to appreciate it, watch the true masters of the system such as Tony Diego, Yuli Romo and Christopher Ricketts.

Hi Russell. Hope you are well. Hope to see you in a few months

[russellsherry]

hi sungkity i hope to see you soon as well, i am trying the double
sticks, a little , and training hard,as always i aggree with your commment"S re arnis , i will be ringing mr nicholls about dan inosanto semminar soon always your friend russellsherry

[AndyM]

Old thread, but I thought I'd add something.

If you can break bones with a blunt stick, don't you think you could hurt someone with Machete?

Better still.

If you've been sparring with someone trying to break your bones with a stick, isn't that better than playing patticake?

[AmanuJRY]

First;

"LOL, sure, you won't find anything resembling a stick (garden stake, broom handle, car aerial, 2x4, walking stick, umbrella, tree branch) in the city, but the gutters are full of sharpened butterfly swords with hooks on them just waiting for WC guys under duress to pick them up."-anerlich

LMAO, excellent point.

Second;

To the original post. I study both WT and Latosa Escrima. I think they compliment each other well. I have recently started learning the knives in WT and have found that some of the knife movements translate well into Escrima. And, as I believe that Escrima techniques cover a broad range of weapons, the use of the BJD knives with Escrima concepts is possible (kinda like paired machettes).

Third;

Though I believe I have seen better technique than that of the Dog Brothers, I have great respect for what they are doing with FMA.

[AndyM]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Though I believe I have seen better technique than that of the Dog Brothers, I have great respect for what they are doing with FMA.

Regarding DBMA technique, do you refer to their Escrima, or something else?

Does it not work, or does it just not look pretty?

[lawrenceofidaho]

First off, the Dog Brothers are a group of *individuals*, with individual strengths and weaknesses. Some are better "technicians" than others, (same as with any group).

Many Dog Brothers fighters have fearsome power, -no question about it. But sometimes when you watch some of the fights you see this power being generated at the expense of the fighter's balance and with (what seems to be) little regard to positioning for a follow up. (Putting all the eggs into one basket.)

Granted, this tends to happen more toward the *end* of a match than at the beginning, and so having a gas tank that is nearing empty makes these things much more likely to occur. (Even a *two* minute match can seem like forever, if you've already had a few previous matches that afternoon.) -As the endurance, quickness, and agility drains away toward the end of a fight, the power still remains for a while longer and so that tends to be what a tired fighter resorts to; -trading power shots.......

This happens in boxing quite often too, and can, at times, be an intense and exciting thing to watch. -Not as a clinic on technical skill, but rather as a display of raw courage, heart, and fighting spirit. (Think back to the tenth and final rounds of all three of the Arturro Gatti vs Mickey Ward fights!)

-Lawrence

[yuanfen]

(Think back to the tenth and final rounds of all three of the Arturro Gatti vs Mickey Ward fights!)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Courage, stamina, gore yes.
Skills-not the same level.
Mayweather would /could beat them both on the same night
without suffering much damage himself.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Only a few of us are blessed with physical gifts like; Ali, Jones, or Mayweather.

No (healthy) boxing fan likes watching a fighter like Mickey Ward or Arturro Gatti for the gore....... We like watching those guys because we are moved by a gutsy fighter's determination and how he rises to meet a challenge. -Arturro's record is far from perfect, but he continues to pack boxing venues because fans admire his HEART, and love him for it.

How many fighters, at the top levels of the boxing game, are willing to fight every other top guy to find out where they truly stand? Many don't like taking "dangerous" fights where they think there is a much of a chance that they might lose. -Many guys also quit when they are hurting just a little bit, or give up and start looking for excuses.

I think most of us find it inspiring when we see a guy like Mickey Ward, who did all his "talking" INSIDE the ring (not trash talking during interviews and brawling at press conferences), and gave 100% of himself every time he was out there. He wasn't the fastest, or the strongest, but I think he is one of the greatest in the sense that athletics are about developing character, and as Larry Merchant put it; "Mickey Ward is as honest a fighter as you'll ever meet." There is NOTHING phony or questionable about that man. -To me, that's more important than all the talent in the world.......

-Lawrence

[yuanfen]

Lawrence-Thanks- some mixed opinions injected in brackets

Only a few of us are blessed with physical gifts like; Ali, Jones, or Mayweather.

((All 3 worked very hard with good guidance to get to the top))

No (healthy) boxing fan likes watching a fighter like Mickey Ward or Arturro Gatti for the gore....... We like watching those guys because we are moved by a gutsy fighter's determination and how he rises to meet a challenge.

((Could be you are different. Most fans dont know much about the skills involved. They do love gore and disaster, and yes guts too-but they wont be asking for the gutsy fighter after he has slowed a bit and the Don Kings dont build them up anymore.
Lots of poorly attended club fights have gutsy fighters-many are there for the betting. See the well done movie "Requiem for a Heavyweight"? With Anthony Quinn in it.

Plato's definition of courage is worth considering (he had seen military service)... to be able to distinguish beteween what is to be to be feared and what is not))


How many fighters, at the top levels of the boxing game, are willing to fight every other top guy to find out where they truly stand?

(They are makinga living-if there is money in it- abig factor in the decision- a question of money management ))

I think most of us find it inspiring when we see a guy like Mickey Ward, who did all his "talking" INSIDE the ring (not trash talking during interviews and brawling at press conferences), and gave 100% of himself every time he was out there.

((Both Gatti and Ward lead with their face-contributes to the blood))

He wasn't the fastest, or the strongest, but I think he is one of the greatest in the sense that athletics are about developing character, and as Larry Merchant put it; "Mickey Ward is as honest a fighter as you'll ever meet."

((Larry Merchant is a puffed up idiot in boxing and in making pronouncements. Most commentators are too--- except for Emmanuel Steward and a fewothers who know something))

There is NOTHING phony or questionable about that man. -To me, that's more important than all the talent in the world.......

((Yes- he does deserve admiration and honor. Gatti too.
Ethnicity and nationality plays a role in drawing people in as well. Irish/Italian fights can play well in Boston and NY. Mex-Mex v US or US-Mex in LA or El Paso. Geat white hopes in many places.
Who is the real black- in the Ali-Foreman game. US black v Poerto rican- Hopkins-Tito. Lots of things involved in crowd behavior-
not just courage))

[lawrenceofidaho]

Good points........I am in agreement with you.

"Most fans dont know much about the skills involved. They do love gore and disaster, and yes guts too-but they wont be asking for the gutsy fighter after he has slowed a bit and the Don Kings dont build them up anymore.
Lots of poorly attended club fights have gutsy fighters-many are there for the betting."

Sadly, I know this is very true.......I hope that Senator McCain's bill for federal boxing regulations will pass and be made into law so we can have the fighters of the sport protected from (at least the extremes of) exploitation and health problems.

"See the well done movie "Requiem for a Heavyweight"? With Anthony Quinn in it."

I have not seen this, but I would like to check it out. -Thanks for the recommendation.

"Plato's definition of courage is worth considering (he had seen military service)... to be able to distinguish beteween what is to be to be feared and what is not"

I have read some Plato, but I do not remember his definition of courage. -Can you share a brief synopsis that will give us the essence of it?

"They are makinga living-if there is money in it- abig factor in the decision- a question of money management"

I see your point, but a few losses on the record does not cause fan interest and ticket sales to wane with regards to fighters like Gatti, Ward, Mayorga, (or even guys like Fernando Vargas) because we know that when they step into the ring, they are in there to *FIGHT*, not just to do as little as possible and collect a paycheck like the over-hyped media darlings (Lewis, DeLahoya, etc.).

"Larry Merchant is a puffed up idiot in boxing and in making pronouncements. Most commentators are too--- except for Emmanuel Steward and a few others who know something"

I agree that Larry Merchant is "not all that", but the reason I quoted him is because it seems to be a very rare thing for him to dish out praise for anyone because he is so negative. I also think that what he said about Mickey was short, but "right on the money", and was put as good as anyone else could have said it.

"Yes- he [Micky Ward] does deserve admiration and honor. Gatti too. Ethnicity and nationality plays a role in drawing people in as well. Irish/Italian fights can play well in Boston and NY....."

I realize that ethnicity & nationality play roles in selling fight tickets, but I personally couldn't care less about it. -I don't think of Micky as Irish, or Arturro as Italian, I just think they are great guys and wish them the best.

-Lawrence

[yuanfen]

Lawrence-
Re-Requiem for a Heavywieght. A movie that was made for TV but it is movie length and a treasure-illustrates the dark side of boxing as well as the beauty and the courage better
than higher budgeted boxing movies including The Raging Bull--though de Niro was superb in the movie. When we were Kings -another good one (Ali-Foreman).
But on Requiem- the story I think was by Rod Serling of the old Twilight Zone. Quinn was the once upwardly mobile havyweight.
Jackie Gleason was his corrupt manager and Mickey Rooney was
a sidekick on the training team.
At the end-despite being used and despite the misgivings and the broken body---the boxer bails his manager out of real danger from the mob and enters the ring as wrestler- dancing with an Indian war bonnet before the "match".

I have read all of Platos dialogues but cant cite page and exact wording at the moment. (((Diogenes, Chrysippus, Seneca in the west and the Lankavatara Sutra in the east are more to my current taste.) Plato enjoyed boxing and other sports but was critical of the unbalanced development in the Olympic sports including the frequent injuries- like ficleness of racehorses.

But asa "philosophical realist"- making distinctions and knowledge was important in all virtues including courage. (Why I admired gene Tunney)). Analysis and knowing what deserves fearing and what does not. Tunney overcame fear to fight the great Dempsey.

On de la Hoya- he is probably headed for big money witha Hopkins fight---but neither looked too good last Saturday night.
The German Sturm really won thefight but the LV judges gave the edge to de la Hoya-the possibility of a big money LV Hopkins-Hoya fight was in the air.
Sturm punched straight with both hands- even turned southpaw(well) in the last two rounds-throwing off de la Hoya's timing in the process.
Sturm would make a great wing chun person- can fight either side- square on and straight-good defense- the center was closed forcing de la Hoya to keep trying for the sides.

Enough wandering...

BTW a good wing chun student of mine just moved to Boise.
Has not settled down yet.

[old jong]

This movie makes me think about Primo Carnera's life story!...

[yuanfen]

Old Jong--

yes the Carnera element was there but the character is a composite and the theme is fairly all encompassing of boxing sociology.
The great Joe Louis even -sadly- resorted to wrestling briefly- after boxing was over- to make a few bucks. Carnera wrestled too.

You never can tell about Tyson- but he aslo signed something
for a grappling promoter in Japan. But money is the key..

Tyson BTW seems to be in pretty good shape-given his ups and downs-mostly down for some time.. He works out here in the Phoenix metro- and has a better trainer than he has had lately- Freddie Roach.
He may clean up a bit still with the smaller heavies- but he doesnt have the foot speed, the reach or the chin to handle the Corrie Sanders, the elder Klitchko or Lewis.

Weight makes a difference in both boxing and wrestling.

((Wing chun IMO offers some equalizers because of the sustained skill devlopment.If you spar boxing style- boxers can get you-its their game.Ditto for grappling a grappler.))

In carnival time-- if Tyson becomes really down and out-he could make some non boxing matches interesting- after all he has chomped ona couple of ears(Holyfeld), chomped on Lewis's leg at the weigh in ruckus and almost broke the elbow of the South African white Buffalo(his own nickname)- and he has an incredibly thick neck- I have seen it in Phoenix.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Back to the Dog Brothers.......

It might be difficult to directly compare their technique to other Filipino martial arts families, because we don't see many other families doing what they do.

If you compare a Dog Brother's FIGHT, to (whoever's) *DEMO*, -of course they will look sloppy. (You are trying to compare apples and oranges.)

So then, this will probably take us now to some version of the ongoing debate;
"To spar, or not to spar......."

;)

If I was a pro boxer, and could choose any trainer, it would be Freddie Roach.
I saw him in the "Shadowboxers" documentary and thought the sense of trust between him and his fighters was awesome. -Freddie has been in the trenches too, and had a pretty decent career himself, from what I hear (I've never seen any of his fight footage.)