Gin Soon Changed Thier Clips!

[QuaiJohnCain]

Anyone else notice this since the controversy began? Interesting, to say the least...

[jun_erh]

that's crazy. what does anyone think of the new clips?

[Fu-Pow]

They seem WAY more believable than the other ones.

You'll notice how the shoulders and backs of the guys being pushed raise up and there back gets locked out.

The way to get out of this would be a Rollback (Lu) motion if I'm correct.

[Tak]

Hmm, they look more believable, but it seems like the guy who wins is using a lot of muscular force.

[GT]

OK ,

Has anyone seen the pushhands demonstration 1, video clip #2. It is even better than the original ones that were up. The student getting pushed dances a little jig!

Best regards,

Guy Tomash
Vancouver, BC
Canada

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Normally I would not talk about this sort of thing but I just watched those clips for the first time and was mortified.

Demo 1 clip 2 had me rolling on the floor. It looked like he was dancing on hot coal!

I am a Bostonian and have heard good things about Gin Soon's Tai Chi but never expected to see this sort of stuff by his son.


Regards,

[Brad]

gotta link? :D

[GT]

Here is the link to the video clips page.

http://www.gstaichi.org/videoClips.html

Best regards,

Guy Tomash
Vancouver, BC

[Brad]

LOL, is clip # 2 a joke or something? What the heck's going on? :D Dude's got some seriously happy feet :D :D

[Ford Prefect]

LMFAO @ Clip 2! If you turn it up, you can hear the background music.

*She's a maniac - maaaniac on the floor...*

[SingleWhip]

Can one of you Bostonians go to the school and have him give you a push?

You can found out real quick, right?

Do you need to be his student to ask for a demo?

[Jim Roselando]

Single Whip!


It has nothing to do with having some push hands skill! It has everything to do with abuse! These useless Kung Fu party/show tricks are part of the reason the Chinese Martial Art community are laughed at by many. Any good teacher IMO would avoid these sort of things and advise their pupils to avoid them. Not only does it give new, or unknowing, pupils the wrong idea about martial art it will leave them in a deep pile of sh1t for when the time comes for them to defend themselves.

Wang Xiang Zhai was 100% on the money when he stated;

Out of every 100 Taiji people, not even one understands the essence.

As for dealing with an enemy in a fight, please dont even consider it! Even the masters of this art have no chance to apply their skills. The abuses are so big that the art of Taijiquan might soon become a mear form comparable to a chess manual. I wish the powerful members of this school would promptly and strictly clean it up!


These video clips are living proof of why he felt that way!!!


Regards,

[jun_erh]

so why don't you go there mr martial arts guy? I have the guys video, it's awesome. Gin soon was a student of yang sau chung. a couple ****ty video clips are meaningless

[Jim Roselando]

Here we go!


I was expecting to get hammered for my post but what can you do!

so why don't you go there mr martial arts guy?

Next time there is a push hands seminar (or any seminar) I will gladly attend (I check the web page regulary) and if anyone in there can make me dance on the fire stones like that clip shows I will drop everything I do (empty the cup) and become a Taiji man for life.

I have the guys video, it's awesome. Gin soon was a student of yang sau chung.

Having good Taiji is one thing but dancing on the fire stones is not going to happen unless you are a die hard believer and want it to happen.

a couple ****ty video clips are meaningless

One move demonstrated by a master tells a whole story. Nobody says the Taiji is not good for health (or basic self defense) but if you think someone can make you spin and dance around from 7 feet away I think we have a different idea as to what reality is about.

BTW: For what its worth! I actually have always liked watching Taiji. I think its good for the body/health/relaxation. I have visited Yang people, Chen people and even had association with some Wu people. None would even attempt to do that stuff and none of Gin Soon's pupils that are on the net say they have ever seen any of this stuff at that school nor did some of my friends that studied there.


Regards,

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think a good way to look at demos of this kind is to try and understand what’s being demonstrated. Investigate it yourself and then from some type of opinion.

What’s being demonstrated?
If true what dose it mean?
How is it done or faked?
Dose this do anything for fighting ability?

I would also wonder why a noted master would allow such clips to be posted. That alone would make me want to see and understand something if I didn’t already have an idea of how and what was being done.

If one knew about what was going on, i think it would be pointless to comment on it with so many closed minds.

no comment ;)

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
None would even attempt to do that stuff and none of Gin Soon's pupils that are on the net say they have ever seen any of this stuff at that school nor did some of my friends that studied there. Actually I posted in the original thread

"I have trained at Gin Soon's school, worked with Vincent, and his father Gin Soon, and several of their senior students. The tapes are not the best representation of what is taught there.

Gin Soon has a fairly deep understanding of energy and rooting. He also practices li kong jin AS A MEANS OF UNDERSTANDING ENERGY, NOT AS A FIGHTING SKILL. It is recognized as a co-operative effort and Gin Soon only practices it with certain students. (I personally don't buy into it.)

I do not believe that Vincent's skills are near his father's, nor have I ever been moved in a manner as demonstrated on the tapes by either the father or the son.

In my opinion, posting those tapes on the internet was a bad idea.

For context only, I have seen and felt other neijia people with skill, including Luo De Xiu, Wang Hai Jun, Chen Zhen Lei (demonstration only, never actual contact with CZL) and B.K. Frantzis. The first person who ever hit me with fa jin, spurring my interest in neijia, also contributed to this thread, Buddy Tripp.

I offer these comments as someone who has trained at the school and knows the players, make your own judgments."

To be explicit, I have seen this at the school, in the context described above, and at demonstrations.
I stand by the post quoted above.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Walter,


Superb post!


Regards,

[bamboo_ leaf]

Hi Walter,

(li kong jin) interesting post with some good comments. You mentioned not as a fighting skill. I would think that some one who had the ability to: with his intent sense and manipulate another’s chi flow, would also be able to receive and react to the intent of movement by another even before the other was aware of his/her own movement. Something about he starts late but arrives first.

I think any one who has touched or worked with a taiji player of really high skill might find that they’re chasing shadows and often get thrown out with really understanding how.

Taiji makes many refinances to not letting go but not resisting, using 4oz to move a lager force ect. This can only be done by either leading or following. I think a good question would be leading or following what?

to bad they changed the clips, the others offerd more ;)

[Walter Joyce]

Hi bamboo-leaf,

Agreed on the points you raised in re the similarities between li kong jin and fighting skills, i.e. listening. The difference, as I saw it, was that li kong jin, as practiced by Gin Soon, was a type of co-operative energy work, where he would project his energy across the room into a receptive student. And btw, back in the day, Gin Soon was a tough s.o.b who had his share of matches. He got his first batch of students back in the 60s when he let the local uechi-ryu guys come and and take there best shots at him and proceeded to toss them around.

Without going into too much detail, while I am a pragmatist when it comes to fighting skills, to my way of thinking, understanding how to fight does not preclude realizing the existence of energy and its importance. While I still have my limits, I believe that there are forces which can be understood and channeled, not necessarily in fighting, but in more important arenas.

Anyways, I guess in some ways I am arguing for a more complex perspective when viewing the world beyond the stereotypical "chi-hugger vs. real fighter dichotomy" that is far too prevalent. Very few things in life are that black and white.

Thank you Jim.

[Bob8]

I agree with everyone who said the demonstration 1, video clip #2 is very weird... I really hope this clip was meant to be a joke.
Personally I feel this display of skill -read: lack of skill- is a disgrace to the martial arts community. I think a lot of fighters will
laugh again about Taiji and the CMA. It really is a pity and I would advice the guy to delete this clip.

[Watahhh]

1.2 does look very dodgy. but there might be some merit to some of the other clips. in 2.3 the guy really looks as if he was pushed back by a strong force. he slides backwards around 1 metre. hard to tell from just those clips though.

have any of you experienced/witnessed someone being pushed back slightly without any contact? by that I mean, one person is standing straight and relaxed in such a way that a small nudge is enough to tip them off balance backwards. the other person, sifu, does a slow palm heel to the chest type move but there's no contact. he tips the other person off balance from around 6 inches away (palm to chest distance). The force is very light though. Nothing like what is implied in these clips.

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by Bob8
I agree with everyone who said the demonstration 1, video clip #2 is very weird... I really hope this clip was meant to be a joke.
Personally I feel this display of skill -read: lack of skill- is a disgrace to the martial arts community. I think a lot of fighters will
laugh again about Taiji and the CMA. It really is a pity and I would advice the guy to delete this clip.

For some reason I am posting again. (Did I say that out loud??)

Just a thought, but who really cares what other fighters think???

Disgrace to the community...pretty strong observation. Especially given what Gin Soon has done for the so-called community.

This whole issue is pretty complex for me but again, who really cares what other fighters think.

Train as you see fit, pursue your own goals in your own fashion, and let others do the same.

[Bob8]

'We' all represent a certain art IMO and not only ourselves.
I was talking about that clip when I said it is a disgrace.
I still hope the guy was making a joke with this clip.

[Syd]

LMFAO @ Clip 2! If you turn it up, you can hear the background music.

*ROFLMAO* I nearly spit my herbal tea out when I read your comments of that clip. I'm looking at the linking clip and it looks allot like a mental hospital warder bullying a patient than anything else! *L* Maniac....

Having said that where he pushes the guy away if the other guy is a student then I would say that there was a conflict of interest in performing this procedure. The reason being that the other person could easily be playing along and they could have easily pre-arranged a count of seconds where the guy could react when the other guy appears to project qi and make him move from a distance.

Funny stuff, not convincing.

[Doug]

Hello,

I had a chance to view the video clips in question. Here on some thoughts about them.

While some clips look believable from the video, the second clip on the first page was absolutely hilarious yet ****ing. Although one can push someone quite a distance in push hands, one does not cause someone to skittle across the floor like a running dachshund. He reminded me of my brother's chihuahua when she prances about. When the little practitioner began to dance like he had ants in his pants, I laughed out loud so hard. I could not believe what I was seeing. If an outsider to Tai Chi Chuan sees this, I can understand why he would disregard the art altogether. It almost seems like (and, at first, I thought this was the intention) the man pushing the opposite was making him do that little dance! Upon further viewing, though, one can see that the larger man is getting impatient and telling the opposite to get back to serious practice. Still, there is no information below the link to indicate this or anything else.

Material such as this helps to generate disdain for Tai Chi Chuan as a martial art in the public eye. Unless under hypnosis, no one is going to make another person dance the Dachshund Skittle-Shuttle. I think the young man was playing around for some reason. However, Dance Fever and Star Search are long gone from televised audiences, and this kind of stuff has no place in serious presentations. If this were presented otherwise, a case could be made for it. But as it is, I will continue to refer this to experienced Tai Chi Chuan practitioners to explain what not to do when giving a demonstration that will be recorded and placed on the Internet.

Doug M

[Syd]

I would second the above statements and go further to add that this is not worthy of Taijiquan, and not what I would even call Taijiquan, but more akin to parlour tricks. It's like calling a telephone psychic when you want to get in touch with dead relatives. Pulleaaaaaaase!

[Doug]

A long time ago, I ordered a video, Taijiquan at West lake: Volume Three from the journal of Asian Martial Arts. At the end, Jin Whey Ying does some push hands with a man that looks like it should, not like the video from the web site in question. Although the man being thrown is pushed back quite a distance, he is not shuffling on the floor, nor is he breakdancing. Has anyone else seen this video, and what are his/her comments on it?

Doug M