Help me settle a smoking debate, please.

[Stranger]

Which is worse for one's health, regular smokes (many a day) or clove cigarettes (one every few days to a week)?

I have to end this work debate that has been going on for a month straight. I must make it end, one way or another.

[MonkeySlap Too]

About the same really. Tabbacco is BAD for you and Cloves puff for puff are worse - can't remember why, I think it's the tar levels.

Basically inhaling smoke in general is not a very bright thing to do if you want to be healthy....

[inic]

Whats better? Drinking rat poison everyday or a few times a week?
you get the idea

[Stranger]

For the record I don't smoke either type, I just can't sit through another moment of this debate between my co-workers. I knew they were both bad. I just didn't know if the absence of a filter on the clove cigarette and the thicker smoke made them comparable to many cigarettes per day.

[FatherDog]

Clove cigarettes contain more densely packed tobacco than normal american cigarettes. They burn more slowly, because they do not have any of the additives American tobacco companies add to increase burn speed. There are some studies that suggest they are less addictive due to the lack of additives, as well.

The lack of filters means there will be more tar conveyed to the lungs, but how much more varies depending on what types of cigarettes you are comparing them against.

On average, I would say that many normal cigarettes a day would be considerably worse for your health than one or two cloves a week.

[IronFist]

What is a clove cigarette?

[Serpent]

Your lungs will always work to clean themselves through expulsion. If you smoke one or two of something per week, your lungs have a much better chance of recovery. If you smoke regularly, you constantly bombard your lungs. Therefore, even though a clove cigarette may be worse than a regular cigarrette in a one for one study, the regularity of smoking and the overall quantity of smoke in the lungs is a bigger factor in this case. Therefore, one or two clove cigs a week is a lot better than regular smoking.

Then again, what is a regular cigarette? There are all sorts of different tar levels, etc. Normally a "light" cigarette is smoked harder and longer than a full strength one to give the smoker their hit, so it's all fairly arbitrary.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by IronFist
What is a clove cigarette?

A cigarette consisting of densely packed tobacco and clove spices. They sometimes, but not always, are wrapped with flavored paper, and are pretty much all imported from Turkey. They're popular with goths.


Originally posted by Serpent
Then again, what is a regular cigarette? There are all sorts of different tar levels, etc


That's why I said 'on average.'

[Kungfuren]

Clove cigarettes are worse for you.

You have to remember the biology behind this. Once you inhale something it permeates through your system, and attempts to ****genize itself. That is the natural state of things and the way that things are. It cannot be changed even if you wanted. Any additive can be bad... and anything abused is worse. Ever wonder why Native Americans did not die from lung cancer? Tobacco which is naturally cured has lower amounts of carcinogenic compounds. they are denatured as part of the curing process... this is why cigars have less of the bad stuff per capita than a cigarette, which is flash-cured. Now... compare that basic stat with the fact that a clove has both more tar and nicotine than a regular cigarette.

I was a smoker. I am also a martial artist, and was then. I didn't think I was hurting myself, and I smoked a clove or two. I really liked the taste of my lips afterward... but when you smoke, you "paste" the cillia down which can cause more colds, sinus infections and the like. I have persistent chronic rhinitis as a result, though I have not smoked for 4 years. Tell your friend it aint worth it. My fiancee just lost her aunt to lung cancer which matasticized and infected her brain... bottom line: there isn't any such thing as a good cigarette... they all kill. Some more rapidly than others... take menthol. Know what makes that menthol taste? Ever heard of fiberglass? No, I'm not kidding.

My fiancee helpd me quit by smacking the patch between my shoulder blades... now upper body flexibility on me is limited: I can bench 360. Ever seen a grown man trying to desparately get to an itch in the middle of his upper back? I quit cold turkey, then and there... funny, but true.

Anyway, I hope that helped.

[Serpent]

Why are all ex-smokers such fanaticists?

That didn't answer the question at all. We all know and have already established that all smoking is bad for you, but that wasn't the question. Re-read the original post.

[Kungfuren]

Dear sir,

I DID answer this question: Which is worse for one's health, regular smokes (many a day) or clove cigarettes (one every few days to a week)?

The answer is clove. Thanks to the fact that a clove has a higher concentration of carcinogenic properties. Remember, the first thing I wrote was: Cloves are worse for you. please re-read my post.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Kungfuren
You have to remember the biology behind this. Once you inhale something it permeates through your system, and attempts to ****genize itself. That is the natural state of things and the way that things are. It cannot be changed even if you wanted. Any additive can be bad... and anything abused is worse.

What does this have to do with the question?




Ever wonder why Native Americans did not die from lung cancer? Tobacco which is naturally cured has lower amounts of carcinogenic compounds. they are denatured as part of the curing process... this is why cigars have less of the bad stuff per capita than a cigarette, which is flash-cured.


Ummm... clove cigarettes are generally naturally cured.



Now... compare that basic stat with the fact that a clove has both more tar and nicotine than a regular cigarette.

Yes, everyone's already said that. Those of us who have access to actual figures have also said that the difference is sufficiently minor that one or two cloves a week is obviously less harmful than one or two regular cigarettes a day.

[Kungfuren]

What actual figures? I work in an FDA regulated industry and have access to all the figures I could need. In fact so can anyone else here, an FOIA request.

The information I have read contradicts this statement: <<Those of us who have access to actual figures have also said that the difference is sufficiently minor that one or two cloves a week is obviously less harmful than one or two regular cigarettes a day.>>

There was a warning a couple of years back from the US Surgeon General's office, showed on NBC News, that smoking 1 clove may be enough to cause lung cancer. More studies were underway, and to be honest I haven't checked to see if they were any further than the prelims.

Simple because I was trying to help explain things a bit does not mean that you need to be rude.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Kungfuren
What actual figures? I work in an FDA regulated industry and have access to all the figures I could need. In fact so can anyone else here, an FOIA request.

If you have information that contradicts previous statements in this thread, feel free to post it.



Simple because I was trying to help explain things a bit does not mean that you need to be rude.

:confused: When was I rude?

[Kungfuren]

Ok... how is this:

<<Clove cigarettes are generally unfiltered and usually contain 30 - 40 percent of cloves and 60 - 70 percent of tobacco. In addition, the type of tobacco used in clove cigarettes has approximately twice as much tar, nicotine, and carbon monoxide as the tobacco in ordinary cigarettes. >>

Do you know what property makes CO so bad? CO prevents the body's absorbtion of O2. IE you suffocate. This is why you can die sitting in a car, which is running in a garage without adequate ventilation.

<<Clove cigarettes also contain a substantial amount of eugenol in them. The active ingredient eugenol has anesthetic properties; it enables smokers to "toke" by numbing the throat. The numbing effect produced by eugenol allows smokers to inhale and absorb stronger cigarettes with no pain. It is also eugenol that makes clove cigarettes a gateway drug; smoking techniques, regular inhalation, and toking learned through clove cigarettes are the same for drugs such as marijuana. >>

Further, the sue of a clove cigarette has been shown to cause hemoptsys in kids who use it, which is a condition in which one coughs up blood streaked phlegm... this has been shown shown to occur after as few as one uses. This is why you cannot buy them in Maryland or New Mexico, and why other states are trying to regulate their sale.

Also, at the current time there is no known analytical data about the long term effect and/or affects of the use of this product.

[Source: Cai, Xumei -sic Winter 1999]

<<Herbal cigarettes are sometimes posed as a 'safe' alternative to smoking. Some may even claim healthy properties, and are sold in health food shops. However some varieties, particularly brands of Chinese origin, are blended with tobacco, these apparently having tar levels varying between 11 and 15 milligrams and nicotine levels of around 1.5 milligrams.(178) This places them at the uppermost levels of tar and nicotine content set by federal government regulations for tobacco cigarettes manufactured in Australia. Brands which contain no nicotine nevertheless have similar levels of tar and particulate matter to tobacco cigarettes, suggesting that they too are harmful to health.(179)>>

note: nicotine is so toxic that a drop of pure nicotine, spilled on your skin will penetrate the dermal layers, enter the blood stream and stop the heart. In the US, typically such chemicals require an MSDS

<<Kreteks are cigarettes containing a combination of shredded clove buds and tobacco. Originating in Indonesia, where they are the most popular type of cigarette, a small number of brands are imported into Australia.

The American Medical Association reviewed the medical evidence concerning clove cigarettes in 1988 and reached the following conclusions(180):

1. Clove cigarettes are tobacco products. They therefore possess all the hazards associated with smoking. In addition, inhaling clove cigarette smoke has been associated with severe lung injury in a few susceptible individuals. Patients with a history of asthma appear to be at increased risk for inhalation of clove cigarette smoke. Respiratory tract infections may increase the risk from inhalation of clove cigarette smoke.

2. Some individuals with normal respiratory tracts and normal pulmonary function may suffer pulmonary aspiration as the result of a diminished gag reflex produced by a local anaesthetic action of the eugenol contained in clove cigarette smoke.>>

Normal Cigarattes do not contain eugenol.

[source: http://www.quit.org.au/quit/FandI/fandi/c03s20.htm]

[Kungfuren]

<<Resolution 43 (1987 Annual Meeting), adopted by the House of Delegates, resolved that the American Medical Association study the dangers associated with clove cigarettes, that policy recommendations regarding regulation of clove and other tobacco additives be developed, and that this information be made available to physicians and the public. Clove cigarettes are tobacco products. They therefore possess all the hazards associated with smoking all-tobacco cigarettes. In addition, inhaling clove cigarette smoke has been associated with severe lung injury in a few susceptible individuals with prodromal respiratory infection. Some individuals with normal respiratory tracts have apparently suffered aspiration pneumonitis as the result of a diminished gag reflex induced by a local anesthetic action of eugenol (the active component of cloves), which is volatilized into the smoke. The American Medical Association has an existing policy vigorously opposing the use of any tobacco product; no exemption from this policy is made for clove-containing cigarettes. >>
(emphasis is my own...)
[source: JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) Vol. 260 No. 24, December 23, 1988]

Now in response your comment about those of us who have actual data... try this:

<<Status of Eugenol and its Use in Cigarette Products
Position and Recommendations - May 1987
Several investigations have now been completed in support of the BAT
Indonesia development of a cigarette containing substantial levels of
clove.
Previous work had led to a recommendation of a maximum level of eugenol
of 4 mg in smoke per cigarette for Indonesia. This level was used to
guide the preparation of some reference samples in Indonesia for use in
this additional work. Based on the deliveries of the different samples,
cigarette V18A, manufactured by BAT Indonesia, has been used as a model
for comparison with both white and Kretek cigarettes and for biological
studies.
The main characteristics of cigarette V18A are:
Dimensions 84 x 24.9 mm
Filter 20 mm CA
Total weight 1.2 g, rod 1.0 g
Clove content 35.
PMWNF 30 mg
Eugenol in smoke 4 - 4.5 mg
TNA in smoke 1.7 mg
The findings are discussed and summarised here under the following
headings:
1. Acute Toxicity of Eugenol
2. Eugenol Intake in Smoke - Long Term Effects
3. Use of Eugenol and Eugenol -Containing Materials - Permitted Levels
4. Ancillary Aspects of Clove Cigarette Design
5. Deliveries and Market Reactions
5. Recommendations CD
C:D
N)
%10
BATCo document for Legal Services : Health Canada 21 October 1999>>

I am currently attempting to find an abstract for BI studies and parameters of said studies. I have not at this time located said data.

<<1. Acute Toxicity of Eugenol
Dangers from clove cigarettes in the short term have been attributed to
the acute effects of eugenol intake into the respiratory tract. Death
and morbidity were-claimed to follow smoking of Kreteks into the USA,
the symptoms being pulmonary oedema.
ihere is evidence to support the view that eugenol can cause injury to
the lungs, including oedema. and haemorrhage. The BAT consultant on
toxicology recorded in 1982 a recollection that high doses of eugenol
could cause death in laboratory animals through lung oedema and an
earlier scientific report found lung oedema in dogs given the substance
intravenously.
,he American Health Foundation has since claimed eugenol to be over
100 times as toxic when given intratracheally as by mouth, but work on
Dehalf of the Kretek importers in the USA has disputed this.
Cbservations in man must always receive more weight than those in other
species, so experimental work is unlikely to resolve completely this
issue. No reports are available indicating this problem to have occurred
in Indonesia, despite the much longer period for which Kreteks have
been consumed. If the cases described from the USA are due to effects
of eugenol from Kreteks, then it suggests that it is a minority
population, achieving very large deliveries of eugenol from high delivery
commercial products.
Comparisons have been made of the BAT experimental product V18A for
:MWNF, nicotine and tar delivery per cigarette and per puff with 3
Kreteks of high commercial significance: Djarum Super, Gudang Garam
international and G.G. Surya 18's. These studies made at 4 different
machine puff volumes, have shown that the per puff and per cigarette
eugenol deliveries to be significantly lower than for GG Surya 18's -
~he latter being the lowest eugenol delivery of the 3 commercial brands.
Cn average the per puff and per cigarette eugenol delivery of the BAT
zodel product is only 75 % of that of GG Surya 18's.
CD
C:)
_rl-
(-n
BATCo document for Legal Services : Health Canada 21 October 1999>>


[source: http://www.library.ucsf.edu/tobacco/batco/OCR/600/675.txt]

It would seem that the toxicity of eugenol has been validated under the definition of validation set forth in 21 CFR 210, 211 and according to pharmaceutical industry standards. There is more data present however, the summary report is not entirely supported by results from American tests. The substantive risk is considered to be higher with a eugenol enhanced product.

Eugenol

<<Status: none
IUPAC: 4-allyl-2-methoxyphenol
CAS: 2-methoxy-4-(2-propenyl)phenol
Reg. No.: 97-53-0
Formula: C10H12O2
Activity: insect attractants
Notes: There is no ISO common name for this substance; the name “eugenol” has been used in the literature but has no official status.
Structure:

[Kungfuren]

Eugenol is not sanctioned by the FDA for use as a homeopathic remedy or as an API:

<<Guidance for industry : status of clove oil and eugenol for anesthesia of fish
This guidance on the use of clove oil and eugenol for anaesthesia of fish was released by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in June 2002. The FDA states that "neither clove oil nor eugenol is approved as a new animal drug to treat or mitigate any diseases in any species in the U.S. Therefore, the use of either clove oil or eugenol as an anesthetic for fish makes them unapproved new animal drugs." This guideline also outlines approved anaesthetic choices for use >>

EugenolUSP however is used in the pharmaceutical industry:

<<Eugenol is an aromatic chemical, fragrance and a spice that is derived from Clove oil andCinnamon leaf. It has a characterstic spicy odour of clove. Eugenol USPgrade has uses in Food, Dental & Pharmacutical industries.

Eugenol is widely used in dentistry, due to it's analgesic, antisepticand balsamic qualities. It is ideal for curative for pulp hyperemia (th esoft, sensitive substance underneath the enamal and dentine of a tooth)and pulpits. In dentistry eugenol is also used to cover cavities, fillcanals etc.

Eugenol USP specification
Eugenol USP health & safety data sheet
Eugenol has many other uses, some indicated below:

Antiseptics

Cosmetics

Dental analgesic

Foods

Insect attractant

Mouthwashes

We supply Eugenol with assay 99%, food & dental grade FEMA No: 2456.Our world wide export service, from our base in the UK, is fast and effective service to any part of the world.>>

For those of you who are not engineers, or scientists a FEMA is defined as Failure Effects and Mode analysis. The intent behind a FEMA is to define a risk. In my field, Pharmaceutical Validation engineering, a FEMA is used to determine what requires a validation study to be conducted. The lower the FEMA score the lower the risk, conversly, the higher the score, the higher the risk.

Now if anyone wants more empirical data than I have listed, please feel free to let me know.

Pursuant to the standards of normal scientific and engineering practice, my summary report would indicate, based on the aforementioned studies, that "clove" cigarettes are more dangerous than traditional tobacco cigarettes, even after one use. The causitive factor here would be the eugenol because of its impact on the lungs, and the fact that in otherwise normal healthy individuals causes a state of hemoptysis, which is the coughing up of blood containing sputem. This is regarded to be a serious pulmonary disorder.

Now dear sir, you asked me where were you rude? Your comment that << Those of us who have access to actual figures have also said that the difference is sufficiently minor that one or two cloves a week is obviously less harmful than one or two regular cigarettes a day.>> was quite rude and an inference that I had no idea about which I was talking. According to industry, the tobacco used in the clove cigarette is freeze cured as in any other cigarette, because of the causual relationship between cost of the cigarette versus cost of the tobacco. This is why cigars typically are higher in cost than are cigarettes.

Now, if you would not mind, I would like to see the "actual figures" you have which contradict the government and medical sources I have listed?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Kungfuren
Ok... how is this:

<<Clove cigarettes are generally unfiltered and usually contain 30 - 40 percent of cloves and 60 - 70 percent of tobacco. In addition, the type of tobacco used in clove cigarettes has approximately twice as much tar, nicotine, and carbon monoxide as the tobacco in ordinary cigarettes. >>


So, twice as much of the harmful substances in cigarettes. So smoking one or two clove cigarettes a week would be as harmful as smoking two to four regular cigarettes per week. Since the original question was a comparison between smoking one or two cloves per week and several regular cigarettes PER DAY, I maintain that of the two options, the cloves was the healthier one. That's just math.




Further, the sue of a clove cigarette has been shown to cause hemoptsys in kids who use it, which is a condition in which one coughs up blood streaked phlegm...


So has the use of normal cigarettes. Unless you have comparison statistics suggesting that the rate is significantly higher for cloves, this is irrelevant when comparing the two.



<<Herbal cigarettes are sometimes posed as a 'safe' alternative to smoking. Some may even claim healthy properties, and are sold in health food shops. However some varieties, particularly brands of Chinese origin, are blended with tobacco, these apparently having tar levels varying between 11 and 15 milligrams and nicotine levels of around 1.5 milligrams.(178) This places them at the uppermost levels of tar and nicotine content set by federal government regulations for tobacco cigarettes manufactured in Australia. Brands which contain no nicotine nevertheless have similar levels of tar and particulate matter to tobacco cigarettes, suggesting that they too are harmful to health.(179)>>


This information isn't even about clove cigarettes, and thus is completely irrelevant.



note: nicotine is so toxic that a drop of pure nicotine, spilled on your skin will penetrate the dermal layers, enter the blood stream and stop the heart. In the US, typically such chemicals require an MSDS

Again, completely irrelevant. No one is disputing that nicotine is bad, or that clove cigarettes contain it.



Pursuant to the standards of normal scientific and engineering practice, my summary report would indicate, based on the aforementioned studies, that "clove" cigarettes are more dangerous than traditional tobacco cigarettes, even after one use.

I never said otherwise. I stated that they were more unhealthy than regular cigarettes, in fact. However, they are not SO MUCH MORE unhealthy that one or two clove cigarettes a week is more unhealthy than several normal cigarettes PER DAY, which is what the original poster asked.

Nothing you have posted has demonstrated this assertion (which I made based on the facts and figures of relative levels of tar and nicotine) to be false.



Now dear sir, you asked me where were you rude? Your comment that << Those of us who have access to actual figures have also said that the difference is sufficiently minor that one or two cloves a week is obviously less harmful than one or two regular cigarettes a day.>> was quite rude and an inference that I had no idea about which I was talking.

I completely fail to see what was rude about that statement, but whatever.

[Kungfuren]

Ok, obviously you did not read the studies. All of them from the aussies to the NIH indicate that regualr cigarettes do not cause that disease from irregular use. Did you miss this statement? : <<Further, the sue of a clove cigarette has been shown to cause hemoptsys in kids who use it, which is a condition in which one coughs up blood streaked phlegm... this has been shown shown to occur after as few as one uses. This is why you cannot buy them in Maryland or New Mexico, and why other states are trying to regulate their sale.

Also, at the current time there is no known analytical data about the long term effect and/or affects of the use of this product.

[Source: Cai, Xumei -sic Winter 1999]>>

That does not happen from regular cigarettes.. in fact I was up to three packs a day, and I never had it. My Grandmother smoked it for 40 years and never developed it, yet a clove can cause it after one cigarette. All of the information I cited was easily found on the internet. Check for yourself. It was about five minutes work. Now, instead of your opinion, I would be open to contradictory evidence.

Obviously you are going to be right. Maybe you should work in my field?

I'm still waiting on the "facts" you were going to present?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Kungfuren
Ok, obviously you did not read the studies. All of them from the aussies to the NIH indicate that regualr cigarettes do not cause that disease from irregular use.


None of them concluded that clove cigarettes caused it from irregular use, either; just regular and prolonged use. Did you read the articles, or just google for clove cigarettes harmful and paste a bunch of garbage? Since half of the things you pasted were about herbal cigarettes and not even relevant to the discussion, I suspect the latter.



Did you miss this statement? : <<Further, the sue of a clove cigarette has been shown to cause hemoptsys in kids who use it, which is a condition in which one coughs up blood streaked phlegm... this has been shown shown to occur after as few as one uses. This is why you cannot buy them in Maryland or New Mexico, and why other states are trying to regulate their sale.

Also, at the current time there is no known analytical data about the long term effect and/or affects of the use of this product.

[Source: Cai, Xumei -sic Winter 1999]>>


The Xuemei Cai article is reproduced here:

http://www.azstarnet.com/public/nonprofit/fcp/unfiltered/Winter99/clove.html

Please note that the portion you bolded



this has been shown shown to occur after as few as one uses.


DOES NOT EXIST in the original article.

You've resorted to misquoting and outright lies to attempt to 'one up' me in argument now. I'm not going to continue this discussion; welcome to my ignore list, *******.

[Kungfuren]

Really? WelL I know you are ignoring me now, but explain this:

when going to your link this is what I found:
HTTP 404 - Page not found
The page cannot be found

The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

Please try the following:

If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.
Open the home page at www.azstarnet.com, and then look for links to the information you want.
Click here to visit our sitemap.



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And this:

Clove Side Effects, Interactions and Warnings





Info on Downloading HerbSafety for use on your computer


Clove may increase the risk of bleeding or potentiate the effects of warfarin therapy.
- Am J Health Syst Pharm 2000 Jul 1;57(13):1221-7; quiz 1228-30 -- Potential interactions between alternative therapies and warfarin. -- Heck AM, DeWitt BA, Lukes AL. -- School of Pharmacy and Pharmacal Sciences, Purdue University, Indianapolis, IN, USA.
About 1000 patients were investigated at our clinic during 1991-1995 for occupational skin disease, and 5 had occupational allergic contact dermatitis from spices. The patients were chefs, or kitchen, coffee room, and restaurant workers. All patients had hand (or finger) dermatitis.
- Contact Dermatitis 1996 Sep;35(3):157-62 -- Occupational allergic contact dermatitis from spices. -- Kanerva L, Estlander T, Jolanki R. -- Section of Dermatology, Finnish Institute of Occupational Health, Finland.

Clove cigarettes may be hazardous to your health.
- American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Substance Abuse: Hazards of clove cigarettes. -- Pediatrics. 1991 Aug;88(2):395-6.

The smoking of clove cigarettes has been associated with 13 cases of serious illness in the United States, including hemorrhagic pulmonary edema, pneumonia, bronchitis, and hemoptysis. We describe a patient in whom, after she smoked a clove cigarette, pneumonia complicated by lung abscess developed. Her lung disease may have been caused by aspiration pneumonia as a consequence of pharyngolaryngeal anesthesia from clove cigarette smoke.
- West J Med 1989 Aug;151(2):220-8 -- Clove cigarettes. The basis for concern regarding health effects. -- Guidotti TL, Laing L, Prakash UB.

A case is presented in which a 7-month-old child developed central nervous system depression, urinary abnormalities and a large anion-gap acidosis after the accidental oral administration of clove oil. Supportive care and gastric lavage were sufficient for total recovery of the patient. Possible mechanisms of the depression and acidosis are discussed, and suggestions for treatment are presented.
- Hum Exp Toxicol 1991 Jul;10(4):291-4 -- Clove oil ingestion in an infant. -- Lane BW, Ellenhorn MJ, Hulbert TV, McCarron M. -- Department of Emergency Medicine, Martin Luther King, Jr., General Hospital, Drew/UCLA School of Medicine.

Cloves are a NEUTRACEUTICAL which is fancy smancy word for herb. Neutraceuticals are typically not regulated by the FDA for cGMP requirements. Don't take my word for it... fo to www.FDA.gov and send them an email.


Now because I accidentally made a mistake while cutting and pasting does not mean I lied. To the person who originally posted the question, I have listed numerous places for you to begin your research. Believe what you want. Someone who calls names, and does not present his own information, or someone who is trying to help you.

To accuse someone of lying about something so trivial as this is flat out juvenile. Makes no sense whatsoever. I sincerely hope that Mr. Dog eventually finds his way, but he has to learn certain things first. For example, there was no malice intended by me; however, he has done nothing but been insulting. I suppose it is time to grow up. Anyhow, Contact the NIH. They have more resources than that are online. As you can see Purdue also has some. A very good place to go would be your college library. They have access to many resources not normally available.

Hope this helps.